WEBVTT - Primo Podcasters: My Favorite Murder, Bowen Yang and More 0:00:02.840 --> 0:00:05.920 Greetings to the Snaffoo faithful. If you're listening to this, 0:00:06.640 --> 0:00:09.000 you're one of the good ones. You're You're bigger than 0:00:09.000 --> 0:00:13.680 a fan. You're family now. And speaking of familial bonds, 0:00:13.760 --> 0:00:16.159 I never feel more embraced as a member of the 0:00:16.200 --> 0:00:20.560 distinct podcasting community than when I meet and befriend other 0:00:20.800 --> 0:00:24.400 fellow podcasters. I even had the privilege of inviting a 0:00:24.440 --> 0:00:28.280 bunch of my favorite podcast hosts onto Snaffoo this past season. 0:00:28.400 --> 0:00:32.720 Karen Kilgareff and Georgia Hardstark from My Favorite Murder Really 0:00:32.760 --> 0:00:38.240 brought their true crime sixth sense insanity to our tale 0:00:38.360 --> 0:00:41.879 of the kidnapping of William Morgan. Robert Evans, the head 0:00:41.960 --> 0:00:47.159 honcho of the Behind the Bastards podcast, illuminated the Iran 0:00:47.320 --> 0:00:52.440 Contra debacle of the nineteen eighties with incredible wit and gravitas, 0:00:52.720 --> 0:00:55.400 And on a slightly more tech oriented episode, the co 0:00:55.480 --> 0:00:59.920 hosts of Hardfork, Kevin Russ and Casey Newton, provided first 0:01:00.280 --> 0:01:04.800 hand accounts and reactions to one of Facebook's most epic 0:01:05.000 --> 0:01:08.800 fuck ups. So enjoy these hosts and several more on 0:01:08.840 --> 0:01:14.440 this week's compilation episode from my absolute favorite primo podcasters. 0:01:19.800 --> 0:01:22.880 One of the things that might set our shows apart 0:01:23.120 --> 0:01:25.600 is that a lot of murders go unsolved and whatnot. 0:01:25.640 --> 0:01:28.440 But in a lot of murders, like people go to jail. 0:01:28.640 --> 0:01:32.920 In the stories I cover, accountability is virtually non existent, 0:01:33.080 --> 0:01:38.240 like snap Foo's big blunders, the big mistakes throughout history, 0:01:38.319 --> 0:01:42.040 like people just bury it, they walk away or walk away, 0:01:42.200 --> 0:01:45.600 or they're just people who have such extraordinary power already 0:01:45.160 --> 0:01:48.160 that they can't be held accountable, which. 0:01:48.040 --> 0:01:50.720 Kind of feels like part of it because when it's 0:01:50.720 --> 0:01:52.720 like a secret society where they have all the power, 0:01:52.760 --> 0:01:55.640 but it's such a small group, doesn't society always kind 0:01:55.640 --> 0:01:57.520 of want to get rid of those. It's like they're 0:01:57.560 --> 0:02:01.400 waiting for that, you know, that take down. It's all 0:02:01.520 --> 0:02:04.800 straight modern day the Internet attack or whatever, where. 0:02:05.160 --> 0:02:08.040 We love a good, a good collapse the o G 0:02:08.240 --> 0:02:10.040 cancel culture right then. 0:02:10.320 --> 0:02:14.680 Well as for old Willie Morgan himself, nobody ever found 0:02:14.720 --> 0:02:16.480 out what truly happened to him. In the years that 0:02:16.560 --> 0:02:20.680 followed his disappearance, unverified sightings trickled in. Some claimed to 0:02:20.760 --> 0:02:25.239 have spotted him traveling through the Ottoman Empire, others others, 0:02:25.760 --> 0:02:28.160 I saw I saw him, I saw him. 0:02:28.280 --> 0:02:34.120 He had a string in his mouth, he was yelling murder. 0:02:34.320 --> 0:02:37.360 Yeah, he was walking along the top of the Great Wall. 0:02:37.440 --> 0:02:41.200 I swear I saw her. Uh, that's so funny to me, 0:02:41.360 --> 0:02:44.280 just like they saw him in the autumn, traveling through 0:02:44.320 --> 0:02:46.680 the Ottoman Empire. Others swore he'd turned up in the 0:02:46.720 --> 0:02:49.040 Cayman Islands living as a pirate. Of course, this is 0:02:49.040 --> 0:02:53.520 the fame Captain Morgan, is it. I mean, it's not 0:02:55.760 --> 0:02:59.040 this actual that is a real pirate who has an 0:02:59.080 --> 0:02:59.880 actual story. 0:03:00.480 --> 0:03:00.600 Uh. 0:03:00.840 --> 0:03:04.120 But and n I think some people, yeah, your rum, 0:03:04.400 --> 0:03:07.240 but I think I think this sort of got convoluted 0:03:07.320 --> 0:03:10.160 with into that. And then there's of course the Niagara 0:03:10.400 --> 0:03:16.440 River theory, which which several people actually maintained to their death. 0:03:16.600 --> 0:03:23.440 And uh, in in my very amateur historian view, is 0:03:23.480 --> 0:03:26.000 probably is the most plausible. Right, he was just dumped 0:03:26.040 --> 0:03:26.480 in the river. 0:03:26.960 --> 0:03:29.079 You don't think they would have found some trace of him. 0:03:29.120 --> 0:03:32.440 I mean, well, I you know, I skipped over this before. 0:03:32.520 --> 0:03:37.640 But they they a body did wash up, and Lucinda 0:03:38.040 --> 0:03:41.560 it was like a year later, so badly decomposed. But 0:03:41.560 --> 0:03:45.200 but Lucinda said, yeah, that is him, I can tell 0:03:45.200 --> 0:03:50.920 by his teeth and uh. But then another woman was like, no, sorry, honey, 0:03:51.000 --> 0:03:54.040 that's my husband. I can tell by the clothes he's 0:03:54.080 --> 0:03:55.920 wearing and the fact that he has a full head 0:03:55.960 --> 0:04:03.160 of hair, and and our guy was, So that's not 0:04:04.360 --> 0:04:07.440 very conclusive. I don't know. The Niagara River is huge. 0:04:07.720 --> 0:04:12.160 Also, what if it's the like stone mason bricklayer thing 0:04:12.440 --> 0:04:16.120 where they knew they know exactly what kind of stones 0:04:16.320 --> 0:04:19.320 to weigh a body down with to make it disappear forever. 0:04:19.279 --> 0:04:22.920 A mafia style. Yeah, this is so my favorite murder 0:04:22.920 --> 0:04:27.480 of you. I love how you're thinking. I'm just like 0:04:27.640 --> 0:04:29.120 they knew how to do it. 0:04:29.320 --> 0:04:32.280 They knew, and you're acting like they didn't get together 0:04:32.440 --> 0:04:35.080 every Tuesday night to talk about how to murder. 0:04:35.160 --> 0:04:36.279 That's what the secret was. 0:04:36.720 --> 0:04:38.920 Car. I love that you also said like they knew 0:04:38.960 --> 0:04:44.240 what stones do you use? Right, because like, if you 0:04:44.240 --> 0:04:46.760 want to hold down a body, you got to use granite. 0:04:46.800 --> 0:04:48.400 You can't use sandstone. 0:04:48.600 --> 0:04:52.400 It's not gonna work, no bummus, you get holes in 0:04:52.440 --> 0:04:53.040 the stones. 0:04:53.200 --> 0:04:56.400 We know that, Oliver, forget it. It's got to be 0:04:57.040 --> 0:05:00.480 it can't be volcanic. Whatever it is us. 0:05:00.440 --> 0:05:03.200 Up here Georgia does cold cases a lot, and I've 0:05:03.480 --> 0:05:06.040 been trained to be like, well, maybe I'll fix it, 0:05:06.120 --> 0:05:08.000 maybe I'll solve it or whatever, because it's just like, 0:05:08.080 --> 0:05:11.080 it's so frustrating when you don't get to have that 0:05:11.200 --> 0:05:14.200 kind of like and then these four stones were found 0:05:14.480 --> 0:05:16.880 near this thing whatever. You don't get to have that 0:05:17.000 --> 0:05:17.960 nice solid ending. 0:05:18.400 --> 0:05:22.280 From your perspective, what actually makes a perfect crime possible? 0:05:22.400 --> 0:05:24.960 Is it the Is it like the planning and the 0:05:24.960 --> 0:05:28.120 intelligence or is it all luck? Is it having those 0:05:28.240 --> 0:05:31.839 levers of institutional power timing? 0:05:31.920 --> 0:05:32.000 Like? 0:05:32.040 --> 0:05:32.800 What? What is it? 0:05:32.920 --> 0:05:33.120 What? 0:05:33.120 --> 0:05:37.479 What makes a perfect crime? And I'm not asking because 0:05:37.480 --> 0:05:39.360 I want to commit one, I'm just saying for. 0:05:39.400 --> 0:05:43.640 Anything, theoretically, we know if you wanted to, if you 0:05:43.680 --> 0:05:46.479 wanted to write it down a step by step, that'd 0:05:46.520 --> 0:05:46.880 be great. 0:05:47.160 --> 0:05:51.719 Yeah, telling as few people as possible, because people talk. 0:05:52.279 --> 0:05:55.040 You can't get people to shut up, even in the masons. 0:05:55.080 --> 0:05:58.799 I'm sure you know, there's always a loose thread. 0:05:59.560 --> 0:06:02.880 Yeah, but these are the people they're so good at keeping. 0:06:02.640 --> 0:06:05.160 See, this is like part of their culture. So in 0:06:05.160 --> 0:06:09.120 that sense, like if you're gonna have a group on 0:06:09.200 --> 0:06:13.200 board something like, make sure it's one that already values secrecy. 0:06:13.320 --> 0:06:17.680 Right and already has the handshakes pre pre choreographed. You 0:06:17.680 --> 0:06:20.040 don't have to worry about any of that stuff. I 0:06:20.080 --> 0:06:24.000 also think there's like back then, well compared to now obviously, 0:06:24.040 --> 0:06:28.839 but much easier because I think those like, first of all, 0:06:28.920 --> 0:06:32.000 they had the they were centered in the power as 0:06:32.000 --> 0:06:34.279 the Masons. They had like hey, I know the mayor, 0:06:34.560 --> 0:06:37.320 I know the judge, I know this lawyer whatever. So 0:06:37.360 --> 0:06:39.599 they had those people kind of in place. So it's 0:06:39.680 --> 0:06:43.880 like I know a guy, I own the the lumber 0:06:43.960 --> 0:06:46.760 mill and we have an incinerator there. We have this 0:06:47.000 --> 0:06:49.320 like those kinds of things. Now I'm planning. 0:06:48.960 --> 0:06:52.839 Them money real specific, but. 0:06:54.400 --> 0:06:56.160 I mean, you know, just making it up off the 0:06:56.200 --> 0:06:59.120 top of my head. Sure that idea where there's like 0:06:59.560 --> 0:07:03.200 you've got people with connections willing to all be in 0:07:03.279 --> 0:07:03.919 on the secret. 0:07:04.200 --> 0:07:07.080 Yeah yeah, yeah right, and then when everyone's a little 0:07:07.080 --> 0:07:09.760 bit responsible, no one's going to speak. I'm going back 0:07:09.800 --> 0:07:10.440 on what I said. 0:07:11.080 --> 0:07:13.240 You get everyone to like do. 0:07:13.280 --> 0:07:13.840 A little bit. 0:07:13.960 --> 0:07:16.600 When everyone has like some skin in the game, there 0:07:16.680 --> 0:07:19.080 might be more beholden to the secret. Is that something 0:07:19.120 --> 0:07:22.040 you see a lot in these murder stories that you 0:07:22.080 --> 0:07:22.960 guys talk about. 0:07:23.040 --> 0:07:25.680 Well, that's why I love cold cases. I'm so fascinated 0:07:25.720 --> 0:07:28.160 by them and want to talk about them. Is when 0:07:28.400 --> 0:07:31.800 it's not solved, it becomes this like legend and becomes 0:07:31.880 --> 0:07:35.120 bigger than what it really is, which is some horrible 0:07:35.200 --> 0:07:39.720 person who isn't that interesting did something awful. It's not 0:07:40.000 --> 0:07:43.320 like a legend. It's not powerful in any way. And 0:07:43.360 --> 0:07:48.040 so like making it into some kind of you know, 0:07:48.160 --> 0:07:50.720 fairy tale, like just gives it more power. But solving 0:07:50.760 --> 0:07:54.480 it and showing how sad and simple it is, I 0:07:54.520 --> 0:07:56.480 think takes that power away from it. 0:07:56.720 --> 0:07:56.920 Right. 0:07:57.320 --> 0:08:02.000 Interesting, Well, Karen and Georgia, that is today's snaffoo. And 0:08:02.080 --> 0:08:06.120 this has been an absolute delight. Thank you for coming on. 0:08:06.520 --> 0:08:07.080 So fun. 0:08:07.600 --> 0:08:08.640 I love that story. 0:08:08.720 --> 0:08:09.800 That was really fascinating. 0:08:09.840 --> 0:08:11.840 Yeah, it's a cool one. It's a cool one, you know, 0:08:11.880 --> 0:08:15.120 in part because I just love how the scale explodes 0:08:15.880 --> 0:08:19.720 after it happens. It's like it turns into this national crisis. 0:08:20.080 --> 0:08:22.240 I gotta say, I think he went to Canada. I 0:08:22.280 --> 0:08:23.800 think he was offered a new life. 0:08:24.360 --> 0:08:27.360 I like that take he said, fuck it. Yeah, He's like, 0:08:27.760 --> 0:08:31.880 Lousenda is really getting on my nerves. She's not nineteen anymore. 0:08:32.320 --> 0:08:34.959 I's going to college, forget it. 0:08:35.280 --> 0:08:37.200 And the book came out, so there's a chance that 0:08:37.240 --> 0:08:39.080 he like made the money off the book and was 0:08:39.160 --> 0:08:39.920 up in Canada. 0:08:40.160 --> 0:08:44.800 Like it all did It was like kicking him some dividends? Yeah, yeah, 0:08:45.280 --> 0:08:47.440 yeah maybe what did you do? A Part two? I 0:08:47.520 --> 0:08:51.720 love trying to navigate this insane moment that we find 0:08:51.760 --> 0:08:57.120 ourselves in. Welcome to Snaffoo, Kara Swisher and Scott Galloway. 0:08:57.840 --> 0:09:01.760 Thank you. You know Scott is definition of snaffho. That's 0:09:01.880 --> 0:09:02.960 you know how we got started. 0:09:03.000 --> 0:09:04.960 It was a snaff that's my stage name when I'm 0:09:05.000 --> 0:09:05.520 a stripper. 0:09:05.600 --> 0:09:05.920 Yeah. 0:09:06.000 --> 0:09:07.800 Yeah, no, it's your porn name, sna. 0:09:08.400 --> 0:09:08.920 There you go. 0:09:10.320 --> 0:09:13.480 What do you mean that you got started through through 0:09:13.520 --> 0:09:14.559 an was a mistake. 0:09:14.840 --> 0:09:18.360 It was a mistake. We were I was. It was 0:09:18.679 --> 0:09:20.800 I've told the story before, but I was host. I 0:09:20.840 --> 0:09:24.840 was looking for another partner and ran into Scott in Germany, 0:09:24.880 --> 0:09:27.720 of all places, where he was giving this speech about 0:09:28.080 --> 0:09:30.520 his trend speech, which is really cool. He had all 0:09:30.559 --> 0:09:33.079 these charts and I was watching it and I kept 0:09:33.160 --> 0:09:36.000 learning things and I think I know everything obviously because 0:09:36.040 --> 0:09:38.800 I do, and but he kept giving me insights. I 0:09:38.840 --> 0:09:41.080 was like, oh, that was smart. But he was so 0:09:41.920 --> 0:09:45.640 obnoxious on stage. He danced around, he showed off his stomach, 0:09:45.679 --> 0:09:48.280 he did all manner of things, and the Germans were perplexed. 0:09:48.800 --> 0:09:52.160 But I was completely entertained and also horrified, and so 0:09:52.280 --> 0:09:53.959 I went up to him and I said, you really 0:09:54.000 --> 0:09:56.360 are a jerk, but boy, are you smart and will 0:09:56.480 --> 0:09:58.360 come on my show, which is you know, that's the 0:09:58.480 --> 0:09:59.840 you know, meet cute kind of thing. 0:10:00.240 --> 0:10:01.400 And he did, do. 0:10:01.360 --> 0:10:03.320 You see yourself as a jerk or is this is 0:10:03.320 --> 0:10:04.560 this a fair characterization? 0:10:05.160 --> 0:10:06.760 It was my first book, so to get on with 0:10:06.800 --> 0:10:09.960 Kara was a big deal. But just to finish her story, 0:10:10.440 --> 0:10:13.319 she called me and said, and Kara gets pretty high 0:10:13.320 --> 0:10:18.320 profile guest. She said it your episode is, according to 0:10:18.360 --> 0:10:20.880 our data, the most downloaded episode in our history, and 0:10:20.920 --> 0:10:22.880 we think it's a mistake, so we can want you 0:10:22.920 --> 0:10:26.600 to come on a second time. That was my favorite part. 0:10:26.640 --> 0:10:28.360 We're pretty sure it was a mistake, so come on 0:10:28.360 --> 0:10:30.360 the second time. Anyways, the rest is history. 0:10:30.840 --> 0:10:33.680 There's no conceivable reason we could we could. H Yeah, 0:10:34.000 --> 0:10:37.319 doesn't makes sense. Yeah, see why you're. 0:10:38.120 --> 0:10:39.920 That's exactly what I was saying to him, And it 0:10:40.000 --> 0:10:42.560 was like perplexing. But people seem to like our Little 0:10:43.040 --> 0:10:44.000 Dog and Pony show. 0:10:44.280 --> 0:10:47.480 I am one of those folks. And you guys are 0:10:47.520 --> 0:10:51.600 like a vultron of podcasting because you have your both 0:10:51.679 --> 0:10:53.360 kicking ass in your own lanes and then you kind 0:10:53.400 --> 0:10:58.280 of stack up as this giant powerhouse on pivot, and 0:10:58.320 --> 0:11:02.280 you're so well informed but also clearly insanely busy. So 0:11:02.559 --> 0:11:03.960 I have to have been dying to ask you this, 0:11:04.400 --> 0:11:06.720 How do you keep up with the news, Like, what 0:11:06.800 --> 0:11:09.040 are your news consumption habits? What are your go to 0:11:09.160 --> 0:11:11.199 sources carry you? First, I've lately. 0:11:11.080 --> 0:11:13.319 Been using Blue Sky and Threads to keep up with news, 0:11:13.360 --> 0:11:15.160 like I watched them, But I do read the Wall 0:11:15.200 --> 0:11:19.840 Street Journal, the Washington Post when things are suggested, the 0:11:19.840 --> 0:11:22.720 New York Times obviously, but I look everywhere. I find 0:11:22.760 --> 0:11:27.120 news everywhere, weird stories, people things sent to me. But 0:11:27.160 --> 0:11:29.000 I have a pretty strong news diet, and then I 0:11:29.000 --> 0:11:31.280 watch a lot of TV and etc. Try to keep 0:11:31.280 --> 0:11:33.960 on cultural stuff and read people I like right that 0:11:34.000 --> 0:11:36.480 are really smart, including Scott. I read his stuff that 0:11:36.520 --> 0:11:38.760 he reads. He writes all the time and no mercy, 0:11:38.800 --> 0:11:39.520 no malice. 0:11:39.679 --> 0:11:39.920 But I. 0:11:41.440 --> 0:11:44.480 Keep up with it rather actively, and I think Scott 0:11:44.520 --> 0:11:44.960 does too. 0:11:45.440 --> 0:11:48.199 So my media go to is the Economists, the BBC, 0:11:49.000 --> 0:11:52.040 and the Financial Times. At all of that is a lie. 0:11:52.400 --> 0:11:53.800 I get all of my information. 0:11:55.000 --> 0:11:59.920 I get all of my instormation from Instagram, TikTok, threat 0:12:00.040 --> 0:12:03.160 and occasionally threads and I hate to say it, but 0:12:03.280 --> 0:12:06.360 I don't I am, I am. My mind is being 0:12:06.360 --> 0:12:11.880 shaped by algorithms run by psychopaths. So yeah, I get 0:12:11.920 --> 0:12:14.360 all my news from social media now, and it wasn't 0:12:14.360 --> 0:12:15.480 that way two years ago. 0:12:16.360 --> 0:12:19.440 He's also somehow turned crippling anxiety about the future of 0:12:19.480 --> 0:12:24.319 America into a wildly successful media empire. Please welcome the 0:12:24.360 --> 0:12:28.839 one and only John love It. Hi, what an intro? 0:12:29.160 --> 0:12:29.520 Thank you? 0:12:29.800 --> 0:12:29.959 Hey? 0:12:30.040 --> 0:12:33.240 Yeah, that's that's what we do here. We honor our guests, 0:12:33.280 --> 0:12:37.440 we elevate them. And I've been I've been on your 0:12:37.480 --> 0:12:40.240 shows over the years many times. I'm so glad to 0:12:40.240 --> 0:12:44.240 have you on here. So in your job at Crooked Media, 0:12:45.200 --> 0:12:49.480 you basically spend a lot of time analyzing the daily 0:12:49.600 --> 0:12:56.520 horrors of American politics, particularly Trump World, and yet somehow 0:12:56.559 --> 0:13:02.640 you stay quick and clever and weirdly hope full. What's 0:13:02.679 --> 0:13:03.240 your secret? 0:13:03.520 --> 0:13:03.640 Like? 0:13:03.720 --> 0:13:07.440 What's the like are you is it just therapy? Or 0:13:07.480 --> 0:13:09.640 are you on black market ketamine? 0:13:09.800 --> 0:13:09.920 Like? 0:13:10.160 --> 0:13:13.280 How do you not collapse into despair all the time? 0:13:13.640 --> 0:13:15.559 I want you to know something. If I ever am 0:13:15.559 --> 0:13:20.320 on Ketymine, it will be from a prestigious Los Angeles 0:13:20.440 --> 0:13:23.560 chased pill pushing fancy doctor. I'm not going to do 0:13:23.600 --> 0:13:26.040 black market drugs forgive that why I moved to this city, 0:13:26.200 --> 0:13:30.640 and I should know better. But so it's interesting. The 0:13:30.760 --> 0:13:34.560 truth is for me. I think hope is important. I 0:13:34.559 --> 0:13:36.520 think it's important that people feel it because I think 0:13:36.520 --> 0:13:40.000 without it they may not be as involved or invested 0:13:40.040 --> 0:13:43.640 in it has real, genuine value. There's a whole whole 0:13:43.679 --> 0:13:46.520 media apparatus that wants people to feel cynical and negative 0:13:46.600 --> 0:13:49.520 and to view all politics as corrupt and all politicians 0:13:49.600 --> 0:13:50.200 is useless. 0:13:50.720 --> 0:13:56.719 And if you give into that, the people that. 0:13:56.720 --> 0:13:58.480 Want you to feel that way when they really do 0:13:58.760 --> 0:14:02.040 and as bad as things have gotten, as bad as 0:14:02.040 --> 0:14:05.480 they could continue to get, there are always places where 0:14:05.480 --> 0:14:09.200 we have agency. And if you're giving up, it's not 0:14:09.320 --> 0:14:11.360 because you can't make a difference or you can't be 0:14:11.400 --> 0:14:14.439 involved or you can't have an impact. It's because either 0:14:14.480 --> 0:14:17.080 you don't know the way to find it, or you've 0:14:17.080 --> 0:14:19.640 decided it's too hard. And maybe that's okay, that's something 0:14:19.680 --> 0:14:22.400 people can decide. But like I think there's a way 0:14:22.440 --> 0:14:24.880 a which people try to tell themselves things are worse 0:14:24.920 --> 0:14:28.360 than they seem or are irredeemable, because it makes it easier. 0:14:29.360 --> 0:14:31.720 And the truth is hope makes demands of us. It does, 0:14:31.840 --> 0:14:33.760 and it requires you to do things well said. 0:14:34.120 --> 0:14:36.920 Thank you for reflecting on that with me. I actually 0:14:37.880 --> 0:14:41.120 I kind of only want to talk about this stuff 0:14:41.120 --> 0:14:43.560 with you. I just like how you communicate about these things. 0:14:43.600 --> 0:14:45.960 Just a quick question. You were on the show Survivor. 0:14:46.200 --> 0:14:48.720 That's right. Did you guys at any point on that 0:14:48.760 --> 0:14:54.320 show ever consider eating one another, just like casually a 0:14:55.040 --> 0:14:55.640 backup plan? 0:14:55.880 --> 0:14:58.840 The truth is I was only I was only surviving 0:14:58.880 --> 0:15:01.840 for three nights, which meant I only really missed three dinners, 0:15:01.880 --> 0:15:04.760 and eating a fellow person doesn't come up after three dinners. 0:15:04.960 --> 0:15:07.840 You're already taking this question too seriously. 0:15:07.760 --> 0:15:11.280 But so it never comes to that. The other thing, too, 0:15:11.360 --> 0:15:14.600 is there are coconuts strewn about. Sure, right, you know 0:15:14.800 --> 0:15:17.760 the exact number of coconuts one might need to survive 0:15:17.880 --> 0:15:21.080 happened to be randomly distributed by I think god. 0:15:21.440 --> 0:15:25.800 Uh yeah, well, today's NAFU does involve actual cannibalism because 0:15:25.800 --> 0:15:29.080 one of the most famous disasters in American history. We're 0:15:29.080 --> 0:15:33.000 talking about the Donner Party. Hell yeah, it's funny. Our 0:15:33.040 --> 0:15:38.760 shows have some some thematic similarities. You focus on bad 0:15:38.840 --> 0:15:43.360 people throughout history. I focus on bad events or incidents 0:15:43.440 --> 0:15:46.640 or mistakes throughout history. Why are we so drawn to 0:15:46.680 --> 0:15:47.400 the dark side? 0:15:47.480 --> 0:15:51.160 Robert Evans, I mean, I think there's part of it's 0:15:51.240 --> 0:15:53.760 just like this little piece in all of us that's 0:15:54.200 --> 0:15:56.840 encoded by evolution to where like if somebody else screws 0:15:56.920 --> 0:15:58.440 up in a major way, you want to like pay 0:15:58.440 --> 0:16:00.720 attention to see. It's like if you see a like 0:16:00.960 --> 0:16:02.880 what happened there? Can I avoid that? Can I make 0:16:02.880 --> 0:16:04.600 sure I don't get into that kind of problem. 0:16:04.720 --> 0:16:06.440 It's funny you put it that way, because I feel 0:16:06.440 --> 0:16:09.120 like that's a well intentioned or it's sort of a 0:16:09.160 --> 0:16:12.200 positive spin on why we're drawn to these things. I 0:16:12.280 --> 0:16:15.240 feel like there's a darker impulse in all of us. 0:16:15.560 --> 0:16:18.360 Like why we look at car crashes. It's not because 0:16:18.640 --> 0:16:21.600 it's like we're looking for ways to avoid that. It's 0:16:21.640 --> 0:16:24.480 because I think, what, what is it? It makes us 0:16:24.520 --> 0:16:27.880 feel safer to see other people injured or something. 0:16:28.120 --> 0:16:29.720 I don't know. That is a good one, because like 0:16:29.800 --> 0:16:31.880 one of my favorite ways to relax, like when my 0:16:31.880 --> 0:16:33.400 friends and I a couple of years ago, we all 0:16:33.400 --> 0:16:35.360 got laid off at the website we've been working for, 0:16:35.440 --> 0:16:37.240 and I had everyone over to the house and I 0:16:37.360 --> 0:16:39.920 just put on hours with a footage of like people 0:16:40.000 --> 0:16:42.680 injuring themselves trying to cut down trees, because it'll be 0:16:42.760 --> 0:16:44.840 like a guy and his kid and like a three 0:16:44.960 --> 0:16:47.320 hundred year old oak tree and he's got like a 0:16:47.400 --> 0:16:49.800 forty dollars saw that you bought from home depot and 0:16:49.880 --> 0:16:52.200 he's like, I can take this tree. And I just 0:16:52.280 --> 0:16:56.520 love watching like the Hubris meet with physics. But there 0:16:56.600 --> 0:16:58.440 is a darkness to it as well. 0:16:58.800 --> 0:17:01.040 I think we all have a sort of schadenfreud of 0:17:01.120 --> 0:17:04.720 gene in us that's sort of like it can be 0:17:04.880 --> 0:17:07.880 soothing to just know we're not alone in our pain 0:17:07.960 --> 0:17:11.639 and misery in this world. Yeah, it's pretty universal. 0:17:11.160 --> 0:17:14.000 And someone always has it worse than you do pretty much. 0:17:14.200 --> 0:17:18.639 Now you have a background in investigative journalism with some 0:17:18.680 --> 0:17:21.560 pretty serious chops in that area. What drew you into 0:17:21.640 --> 0:17:22.280 that space? 0:17:22.440 --> 0:17:26.600 You know, I've always been fascinated by conflict. I came 0:17:26.840 --> 0:17:29.400 into it sort of as like a military history nerd 0:17:29.480 --> 0:17:32.840 someone who was interested in that. But really what kind 0:17:32.880 --> 0:17:36.760 of like broke me into like a significant role in 0:17:37.080 --> 0:17:40.080 media was I just happened to be paying attention to 0:17:40.119 --> 0:17:42.800 these weird little corners of the internet right, as like 0:17:42.880 --> 0:17:46.440 the alt right erupted and you know, eight chan, four 0:17:46.560 --> 0:17:49.800 chan kind of like became major things in terms of 0:17:49.840 --> 0:17:52.240 like people were carrying out attacks and stuff based on, 0:17:53.119 --> 0:17:56.560 you know, having been radicalized in these little fascist corners 0:17:56.600 --> 0:17:59.000 of the Internet. And I just kind of been watching 0:17:59.000 --> 0:18:01.240 them for a couple of years, and so I've realized 0:18:01.280 --> 0:18:02.919 at a certain point, like, oh, there's not a lot 0:18:02.960 --> 0:18:05.399 of other people who understand how these communities work. I 0:18:05.400 --> 0:18:08.520 should probably explain them to people, because members of those 0:18:08.520 --> 0:18:10.040 communities are now killing people. 0:18:10.280 --> 0:18:10.480 Right. 0:18:10.680 --> 0:18:15.360 It was a mix of like accident and I guess happenstance. 0:18:15.480 --> 0:18:19.440 Sure, well, it was a product of your own curiosity, right, 0:18:19.680 --> 0:18:20.919 And I think I feel like that's one of the 0:18:20.960 --> 0:18:24.240 traits of the great journalists out there, is like this 0:18:24.320 --> 0:18:27.960 relentless curiosity and that it's coming from a genuine place. 0:18:28.000 --> 0:18:29.720 It's not just like how do I get the next 0:18:29.760 --> 0:18:32.840 big scoop? You know, it's like, yeah, I really my 0:18:33.000 --> 0:18:35.040 sense and I'm not a journalist at all, but my 0:18:35.160 --> 0:18:38.119 sense of it is that the journalists, the great ones, 0:18:38.400 --> 0:18:42.159 really have like a personal, like unquenchable thirst to know, 0:18:42.920 --> 0:18:47.240 and this curiosity that drives through because investigative journalism is tedious, 0:18:47.480 --> 0:18:50.840 It is incredibly time consuming, It can be it can 0:18:50.880 --> 0:18:57.280 be dangerous a lot of times, and that thirst for 0:18:57.520 --> 0:18:59.879 the truth or for knowledge or for for clarity on 0:19:00.119 --> 0:19:04.560 something is really powerful. I think it's such an admirable 0:19:04.720 --> 0:19:08.199 space to be in. Do you see great investigative journalism 0:19:08.600 --> 0:19:09.520 happening today? 0:19:09.680 --> 0:19:09.760 Like? 0:19:09.800 --> 0:19:11.960 Who are the people shit that you think are really 0:19:12.000 --> 0:19:13.600 standing out or doing great work? 0:19:13.920 --> 0:19:17.119 I mean besides Tucker Carlson of course, of course Tucker. 0:19:17.119 --> 0:19:21.119 You and I are both big fans of Tucker. You know, 0:19:21.160 --> 0:19:24.760 my old colleagues at Bellingcat continue to do great work. 0:19:25.520 --> 0:19:28.920 You know, the New York Times Visual Investigations desk has 0:19:28.960 --> 0:19:34.200 done some really impressive open source reporting on conflicts, I 0:19:34.280 --> 0:19:37.760 mean all over the world over the last like several years. 0:19:37.920 --> 0:19:42.600 I find myself really interested in BBC Africa I which 0:19:42.720 --> 0:19:46.359 is their kind of open source covering, like particularly like 0:19:46.400 --> 0:19:49.120 war crimes and places like Cameroon. So there's a lot 0:19:49.119 --> 0:19:53.560 of really interesting nuts and bolts work being done by 0:19:53.720 --> 0:19:56.919 folks who are willing to do things like spend hundreds 0:19:56.960 --> 0:20:00.159 of hours combing through like footage that we I know 0:20:00.280 --> 0:20:02.520 is a war crime, but we don't know what militia 0:20:02.640 --> 0:20:06.360 was responsible or where it was done, and like laboriously matching, 0:20:06.520 --> 0:20:08.879 like you can kind of see a mountain in the background, 0:20:08.960 --> 0:20:11.520 and so they'll just spend weeks going through Google Maps 0:20:11.520 --> 0:20:13.840 into like it's this mountain, and because of where it 0:20:13.920 --> 0:20:15.520 is in the frame of the shot, we can like 0:20:15.600 --> 0:20:19.080 now locate this exact point geographically, and we know that 0:20:19.119 --> 0:20:22.679 these militant groups reacted. Like that's really impressive work to me. 0:20:22.760 --> 0:20:23.879 It has so much more of a pain in the 0:20:23.880 --> 0:20:26.119 but than what I did, you know when I was 0:20:26.160 --> 0:20:29.240 covering that stuff. So I have I have tremendous admiration 0:20:29.359 --> 0:20:34.560