Speaker 1: Hey, this is Jordan. Before today's show, I want to
Speaker 1: tell you about the amazing thing that we're doing this weekend.
Speaker 1: We're having our first live show, and if you are
Speaker 1: in the New York City area, I would love to
Speaker 1: have you there. It's going to be this Sunday, September
Speaker 1: twenty ninth at two thirty pm at the LGBT Community
Speaker 1: Center in the West Village. It will be part of
Speaker 1: the Queer Voices Film Festival, and I will be interviewing
Speaker 1: Patrick ian Polk. He's the creator of the historic queer
Speaker 1: TV show Noah's Arc. And you can get your free ticket, yes,
Speaker 1: a free ticket at Queer VOICESNYC dot com. I'll see
Speaker 1: you this Sunday. What We Loved is a production of
Speaker 1: iHeart Podcasts and the Outspoken podcast Network.
Speaker 2: So Stewart immediately runs back to see what's going on,
Speaker 2: and the street scene was just chaotic. I mean, there
Speaker 2: were flames were roaring out of the windows. He would
Speaker 2: have seen people trapped trying to get out of the windows,
Speaker 2: people badly burned on stretchers. He would have seen ambulances.
Speaker 2: He would have heard shrieking and screaming, and so Stuart
Speaker 2: just kind of beheld all this from the street and
Speaker 2: was just utterly devastated. That was the night that really
Speaker 2: changed his life.
Speaker 1: As a gay kid, growing up religious in the South,
Speaker 1: I felt being gay was the worst thing I could
Speaker 1: ever be. Now, as a journalist, I'm trying to unlearn
Speaker 1: that by seeking out our history, and what I've found
Speaker 1: are people and stories full of courage, perseverance, and love.
Speaker 1: In this episode, we'll talk to Frank Perez, a gay
Speaker 1: historian from New Orleans who became an expert on the
Speaker 1: life of Stuart Butler. We'll learn how the deadliest fire
Speaker 1: in New Orleans history that killed thirty two queer people,
Speaker 1: shaped Stewart's life, and how because of it he would
Speaker 1: go on to shape the queer landscape of New Orleans
Speaker 1: and the American South. For my Heart podcast, I'm Jordan
Speaker 1: U Solve This and this is what We Loved. It
Speaker 1: took me months to come up with a title for
Speaker 1: this show. I'd been doing months of research on queer
Speaker 1: history and interviewing tons of people, and one night I
Speaker 1: was reviewing my notes and I got really sad. My
Speaker 1: notes were full of people that were lost to aids
Speaker 1: and people that never got to come out and stories
Speaker 1: of getting beaten up or being in prisoned just for
Speaker 1: being queer. And I had this moment where I thought
Speaker 1: to myself, I don't really know if I want to
Speaker 1: make this show, if every single episode is only going
Speaker 1: to be sad. But when I looked at my notes again,
Speaker 1: there was a word that popped out. Love. It became
Speaker 1: clear to me that the thread of queer history is
Speaker 1: but we loved in spite of all this adversity. Every
Speaker 1: single time, there's stories of triumph. My next guest, Frank Perez,
Speaker 1: is on the show to tell us one of them.
Speaker 1: He's a gay historian from New Orleans and he wrote
Speaker 1: a book about Stuart Butler, a political force for queer
Speaker 1: rights in Louisiana. Stuart became activist after witnessing the deadliest
Speaker 1: hate crime against LGBTQ people in American history, the Upstairs
Speaker 1: Lounge Fire. But before the fire, he never thought of
Speaker 1: himself as an activist. He didn't even think of himself
Speaker 1: as a gay man.
Speaker 2: So my name is Frank Perez, and I serve as
Speaker 2: the executive director of the LGBT Plus Archives Project of Louisiana.
Speaker 1: So, Frank, it's amazing to have you here. You are
Speaker 1: one of the experts on the life of Stuart Butler,
Speaker 1: who really was instrumental in shaping queer life in New Orleans,
Speaker 1: in Louisiana, and really the American South. Unfortunately, he passed
Speaker 1: away in twenty twenty, but his legacy lives on, and
Speaker 1: I'm wondering, before we get to all of that, tell
Speaker 1: me how you actually met Stuart.
Speaker 2: There are still a lot of people today that when
Speaker 2: you mentioned Stuart's name, they smile, they cry, They have
Speaker 2: stories about how he mentored them and encouraged them and whatnot.
Speaker 2: So his legacy lives on in multiple ways. But I
Speaker 2: initially contacted Stuart for a book I was writing. I
Speaker 2: wrote a book about the history of the oldest gay
Speaker 2: bar in the city. And as I was writing that
Speaker 2: book and researching it, everybody I interviewed is like, well,
Speaker 2: you got to interview Stuart Butler if you talked to
Speaker 2: Stuart Butler, And I was like, who the hell is
Speaker 2: Stuart Butler? And so that's how I called him, made
Speaker 2: an appointment, showed up at his house. He actually materialized
Speaker 2: when he opened the door in this thick haze of
Speaker 2: cannabis smoke, and he tho an old hippie. You know,
Speaker 2: just think Benjamin Franklin meets a CLU lawyer. He war
Speaker 2: shorts and t shirts with tashiki hats, and he he
Speaker 2: was just piercing blue eyes, very gentle soul, curmudgeonly exterior.
Speaker 2: And he invited me in. He introduced me to his dog,
Speaker 2: poured me a cup of coffee, and the first thing
Speaker 2: he said to me is there are many spirits in
Speaker 2: this house. And I believed him. And then he told
Speaker 2: me all about him, told me about Alfred and Greg
Speaker 2: and Richard and a dozen others, and that's how I
Speaker 2: met Stuart.
Speaker 1: So you ended up learning a lot about Stuart's life
Speaker 1: and wrote his biography, Political Animal, tell us about how
Speaker 1: he grew up and when he realized he was gay.
Speaker 2: Stuart was born in Mobile, Alabama, in nineteen thirty. He
Speaker 2: shortly thereafter moved to New Orleans, where he spent his
Speaker 2: toddler years, and his father eventually took a job about
Speaker 2: an hour away in Carville, Louisiana. It's important, I think
Speaker 2: for people to remembermember that in the nineteen forties and
Speaker 2: fifties and well into the seventies, you know, homosexuality was
Speaker 2: discussed as primarily a criminal issue or a psychiatric disorder
Speaker 2: of very cold clinical terms. And Stewart told me that
Speaker 2: he really didn't come to grips with it until nineteen
Speaker 2: sixty four, and he'd actually, in the interim had been
Speaker 2: married briefly. Of course that didn't last. So I think
Speaker 2: he had an inkling that he was different, and he
Speaker 2: knew that was not something he could be open about.
Speaker 2: That would come a little bit later.
Speaker 1: So, you know, you mentioned a little bit about homosexuality
Speaker 1: being a criminal issue. Tell me more about that, Like,
Speaker 1: what was it like sort of coming of age in
Speaker 1: New Orleans and in the American South as a gay
Speaker 1: person in the fifties, sixties, and even the early seventies.
Speaker 2: Well, homosexuality has been criminalized for most of our national history,
Speaker 2: and in New Orleans. That kind of surprises people because
Speaker 2: today New Orleans is a very open, tolerant, inclusive city
Speaker 2: and that's wonderful, But it wasn't always that way because
Speaker 2: the city actually in the nineteen fifties adopted a very
Speaker 2: aggressive hostile posture. Actually the mayor actually formed a committee
Speaker 2: called the Committee on the Problem of Sex Deviates, and
Speaker 2: they would harass gay bars and tried to drive out
Speaker 2: all the home sexuals from the French Quarter, which did
Speaker 2: not work. Obviously, anybody who's been in the French Quarter
Speaker 2: knows that. But it was the city was very hostile
Speaker 2: for a long time toward clearness.
Speaker 1: Well, you know, how was Stuart responding to all of this,
Speaker 1: because you mentioned that he decided to come out later.
Speaker 1: How was that process for him balancing all of this
Speaker 1: and deciding, no matter what all these people are saying
Speaker 1: about being gay, I am gay.
Speaker 2: Well it was a gradual process, that's the short answer.
Speaker 2: So he kind of came out to himself and started
Speaker 2: exploring gay night life in the French Quarter and was
Speaker 2: out to other people at the bars, but was still
Speaker 2: not out at work, was still not out generally. And
Speaker 2: when Stuart was exploring the gay bars in the sixties
Speaker 2: and seventies, it was dangerous because if the police raided
Speaker 2: a gay or a lesbian bar, not only were you
Speaker 2: arrested and all the bs that comes with that, but
Speaker 2: your name would often appear in the paper. You were
Speaker 2: often fired from your job, or evicted from your apartment,
Speaker 2: or cut off from your family. Worst case scenarios, you
Speaker 2: might be put in a mental institution. And unfortunately, a
Speaker 2: lot of cases being outed in such a dramatic fashion
Speaker 2: led people to suicide. And at this time, the sixties
Speaker 2: and early seventies, there was actually a psychiatrist at Ulan
Speaker 2: University who was convinced he could cure gay men of
Speaker 2: their homosexuality by lebotom them and inserting electrodes into their brain.
Speaker 2: His name was doctor Robert Heath. That was the mentality.
Speaker 2: This was a mental illness. It was sick, it was
Speaker 2: degenerate and not good.
Speaker 1: So these are really the forces that Stewart is sort
Speaker 1: of going up against. He's going up against criminality, fear
Speaker 1: of losing his livelihood, fear of losing his housing, fear
Speaker 1: of losing his family. And then on top of that,
Speaker 1: there's obviously the conservative religious sort of air that comes
Speaker 1: along with living in the South too.
Speaker 2: Yes, New Orleans was for a long time a super
Speaker 2: Catholic city, and so the Catholic Church has been no
Speaker 2: friend to the gay community. To their discredit, the gay
Speaker 2: community in New Orleans was very content with the way
Speaker 2: things were. They knew their place in retrospect that was
Speaker 2: a bad thing, but they were content with.
Speaker 1: That, and their place was quote as second class citizens,
Speaker 1: really in the criminal class.
Speaker 2: Well, their place was in the closet.
Speaker 1: So we're now in the late sixties and early seventies.
Speaker 1: Stewart is out now going to gay bars and discovering
Speaker 1: his sexuality. Did he find love?
Speaker 2: He met a lot of lovers, he actually got emotionally
Speaker 2: invested in one or two. Those did not last until
Speaker 2: Marty Gras weekend of nineteen seventy three. He and his
Speaker 2: friend Stephen Duplantis, who was actually living in Texas and
Speaker 2: San Antonio in the military, but he would come in
Speaker 2: on the weekends. They would go bar hopping in the
Speaker 2: French Quarter, and during Martin Groun weekend of seventy three,
Speaker 2: they both spotted this really attractive young guy and Stuart
Speaker 2: said he looked just like Prince Valiant, and Stuart went
Speaker 2: up and met him and took him home that night.
Speaker 2: His name was Alfred Doolittle, who was in town, and
Speaker 2: the two fell in love and spent the rest of
Speaker 2: their lives together. So he did eventually find love. To
Speaker 2: answer your question, yes.
Speaker 1: Well, so now tell me a little bit about queer
Speaker 1: nightlife at that point and what that was even like
Speaker 1: in New Orleans during this really closeted time for queer people.
Speaker 2: Queer nightlife at that time meant one of two things.
Speaker 2: Either going to the bars, and there were a lot
Speaker 2: of gay and lesbian bars, or it meant entertaining at
Speaker 2: home in private parties and cocktail soires and things like that.
Speaker 2: Stuart Alfred were much more of the bar scene crowd.
Speaker 2: They went to bars all the time. The French Quarter
Speaker 2: is not a large area. It's under a square mile
Speaker 2: thirteen by what six blocks. I think people that lived
Speaker 2: throughout the city have always recognized the French Quarters as
Speaker 2: kind of an odd place for eccentric characters. The rules
Speaker 2: don't necessarily apply there. But there were a lot of
Speaker 2: queer bars, gay and lesbian bars in the French Quarter
Speaker 2: at that time, and they were regulars at all of them.
Speaker 1: One of the gay bars that Stuart frequented was called
Speaker 1: the Upstairs Lounge. You had to walk up a flight
Speaker 1: of thirteen creaky wooden stairs to get to it. It
Speaker 1: was a safe haven for Stuart, who was a land
Speaker 1: surveyor and countless other working class gay people in New Orleans.
Speaker 1: He knew that outside of this bar it was a
Speaker 1: different world. If he came out to his employer, he'd
Speaker 1: surely be fired, and if the Upstairs Lounge was rated
Speaker 1: by the cops. He would probably go to jail and
Speaker 1: be charged with crimes against nature, and the papers would
Speaker 1: likely publish his name in the criminal section, publicly outing him.
Speaker 1: But for Stuart, spending time at the Upstairs Lounge was
Speaker 1: worth it. This was his community, his family well.
Speaker 2: The Upstairs Lounge was a gay bar on the edge
Speaker 2: of the quarter on a street called Iberville Street, which
Speaker 2: had a number of gay bars, three or four gay bars.
Speaker 2: It was just one of his favorite places to go.
Speaker 2: It occupied the second floor of a building, so you
Speaker 2: had to go up a stairwell to access the bar,
Speaker 2: hence the name Upstairs Lounge, and everybody was welcome. Unlike
Speaker 2: a lot of the other bars at that time, a
Speaker 2: lot of the gay bars didn't want women, a lot
Speaker 2: of the lesbian bars didn't allow men, and all the
Speaker 2: bars were racially segregated for the most part. But the
Speaker 2: Upstairs Lounge was the exception. It just had a really casual, warm,
Speaker 2: family community feel vibe, and Stewart's favorite night to go there,
Speaker 2: along with Alfred, was Sunday nights. And Sunday nights the
Speaker 2: Upstairs Lounge would host what they called a beer bust,
Speaker 2: and that was the night that really changed his life.
Speaker 1: On the night of Sunday, June twenty fourth, nineteen seventy three,
Speaker 1: Stuart and his boyfriend Alfred Doolittle went to the Upstairs
Speaker 1: Lounge for their beer Bus special. For just one dollar,
Speaker 1: you could get two hours of unlimited draft beer. At first,
Speaker 1: it was just like any other Sunday night. Little did
Speaker 1: Stuart know this night would be the catalyst that would
Speaker 1: transform him from a low key gay man just minding
Speaker 1: his business to one of the most important figures in
Speaker 1: New Orleans history.
Speaker 2: The Upstairs Lounge was the subject of an arson attack
Speaker 2: on June twenty fourth in nineteen seventy three and killed
Speaker 2: thirty two people. It said deadly aspire in New Orleans history,
Speaker 2: even to the day and until the pulsemasacre in Orlando
Speaker 2: in twenty sixteen. It was the deadly's crime against gays
Speaker 2: in lesbians inter nation's history, and it never really got
Speaker 2: the attention I think it deserved. That's becoming better now,
Speaker 2: But I think one of the reasons that it has
Speaker 2: been lost in the national narratives of queer history is
Speaker 2: that it was not a traditional hate crime. It was
Speaker 2: not the arsonist was not a religious zelot trying to
Speaker 2: purge the world of evil sodomites.
Speaker 1: Tell us what happened that night.
Speaker 2: That weekend, Stuart and Alfred had gone bar hopping. They
Speaker 2: end up at the Upshairs Lounge, as was their custom
Speaker 2: on Sunday evenings. Stuart is at the bar talking to
Speaker 2: his hairdresser and his other friends at the bar when
Speaker 2: a fight breaks out. This young sex worker named Roger
Speaker 2: Nunez had gotten into a fight with another regular named
Speaker 2: Mike Scarborough and had been just creating problems the whole evening,
Speaker 2: and the bartender had enough. The bartender's name was Buddy Rasmussen,
Speaker 2: who was also a friend of Stuart's, and Buddy put
Speaker 2: him out. As he is being thrown out of the bar,
Speaker 2: Roger Nunez says, I'm going to come back and burn
Speaker 2: you all out of here. Most people didn't pay much attention.
Speaker 2: It's just a kid getting thrown out of a bar,
Speaker 2: happens all the time. But Alfred overheard this. Stuart Alfred
Speaker 2: heard him make that threat. Then Alfred and Stuart get
Speaker 2: into a huge fight. Because Alfred is frightened, he takes
Speaker 2: the threat seriously. He says Stuart we've got to go,
Speaker 2: and Stuart was like, you're overreacting, you're being paranoid. Don't
Speaker 2: worry about it. It'll be fine. So they have this
Speaker 2: huge fight and ultimately Alfred prevails upon Stewart to leave.
Speaker 2: So they exit the bar and they walk down the
Speaker 2: street to the next corner to another gay bar called Wanda's. Well,
Speaker 2: they had not even ordered a drink at Wanda's when
Speaker 2: they heard the fire trucks. This young man had walked
Speaker 2: to a pharmacy of Walgreens right across the street from
Speaker 2: Wanda's and purchased a can of lighter fluid and brought
Speaker 2: it back to set the bar on fire. I'm speculating here,
Speaker 2: but I'm guessing that Alfred and Stuart probably walked right
Speaker 2: across his path on the sidewalk when he was coming
Speaker 2: back to set the bar on fire. It was that quick,
Speaker 2: and it was all within one block.
Speaker 1: And who was Roger Nunez.
Speaker 2: He was actually a closeted gay mane himself, who was
Speaker 2: a member of the community. He had grown up in
Speaker 2: a small town a couple of hours west of New
Speaker 2: Orleans called Abbeville. Very Catholic, he drank a lot, probably
Speaker 2: had substance abuse issues, maybe mental issues. But he was
Speaker 2: a very troubled young man. He was the kind of
Speaker 2: guy that when he walks in the bar, all the
Speaker 2: regulars just kind of roll their eyes and say, oh God,
Speaker 2: not this one again. And he was just a part
Speaker 2: of the scene.
Speaker 1: So Stuart, here's the fire trucks. What does he do?
Speaker 2: So Stuart immediately runs back to see what's going on.
Speaker 2: Alfred did not want to be a part of that.
Speaker 2: Alfred had a lot of issues himself. Alfred was paranoid, schizophrenic,
Speaker 2: and any kind of sirens or emergency vehicles would kind
Speaker 2: of set him off. He didn't like that, so he
Speaker 2: stayed at the bar. But Stuart went back to the
Speaker 2: upstairs block away and the street scene was just chaotic.
Speaker 2: I mean, there were flames were roaring out of the windows.
Speaker 2: He would have seen people trapped trying to get out
Speaker 2: of the windows. The windows had security bars. If he
Speaker 2: were skinny enough to squeeze through the bars and drop
Speaker 2: down to safety one floor, he did that, but not
Speaker 2: everybody could do that. Buddy Resimus and the bartender had
Speaker 2: led about twenty people out of the building through a
Speaker 2: rear fire escape, which was not clearly marked. But Stuart
Speaker 2: would have been on the street along with all these
Speaker 2: other people watching this insanity unfold. He would have maybe
Speaker 2: seen Buddy Rasmussen actually grab Roger Nunez, who was in
Speaker 2: the street as well, and present Nenez to a police
Speaker 2: officer and say this is the guy who said he
Speaker 2: was going to set the barn fire. And the police
Speaker 2: officer's reaction was move along, sir, you know, just no
Speaker 2: response whatsoever. So Stuart would have been horrified. He would
Speaker 2: have seen people badly burned on stretchers, he would have
Speaker 2: seen ambulances. He would have heard shrieking and screaming. And
Speaker 2: let's not forget the odors. Burning flesh does not smell good,
Speaker 2: and there would have been a lot of burning flesh.
Speaker 2: Thirty two people died in that fire. A dozen or
Speaker 2: so survived, but they were badly burned as well. And
Speaker 2: so Stuart just kind of beheld all this from the
Speaker 2: street and was just utterly devastated. I mean, you can
Speaker 2: imagine the myriad of emotions one goes through. He almost
Speaker 2: died in many respects alf saved his life that.
Speaker 1: Night well, and I guess Frank I also wanted to
Speaker 1: take a moment to just realize that these were some
Speaker 1: of his friends and in a place that he sort
Speaker 1: of considered his safe and sacred space, in a time
Speaker 1: where it wasn't really easy to be gay in any way.
Speaker 2: That's right. And Stuart told me that the hardest part
Speaker 2: was the next day, which was a Monday, having to
Speaker 2: go to work and pretend like he had not been
Speaker 2: affected by this. You know, Suppressing all that anxiety and
Speaker 2: sadness and all the other emotions you're dealing with is
Speaker 2: bad enough, but then not reacting to homophobic slurs and jokes,
Speaker 2: and there were a lot of them. Trying to suppress
Speaker 2: all that emotion was really difficult for Stuart.
Speaker 1: Well, how did the city sort of respond to this
Speaker 1: horrific fire that you mentioned killed thirty two people?
Speaker 2: Not well, hardly at all. Really. The mayor had nothing
Speaker 2: to say about it. The Archbishop of the Catholic Church
Speaker 2: issued a simple statement, no Catholic funerals for anybody who
Speaker 2: died in that fire. A lot of the churches refused
Speaker 2: to host a memorial service. Radio commentators would make jokes
Speaker 2: like what doll we bury the remains in? And the
Speaker 2: punchline would be fruit jars. The city was pretty homophobic
Speaker 2: and did not react well. That was the real hate crime, honestly,
Speaker 2: But eventually it just faded away, and even today in
Speaker 2: New Orleans, a lot of New Orleanians still don't know
Speaker 2: about the fire.
Speaker 1: Stuart Butler had just witnessed the deadliest fire in New
Speaker 1: Orleans history and the deadliest hate crime on LGBT people
Speaker 1: in American history. Not only did the city barely respond,
Speaker 1: but justice was never served. The alleged arsonist, Nunas, was
Speaker 1: never charged by police, and a year after the fire,
Speaker 1: Nunaz died by suicide. To this day, the arson remains
Speaker 1: an unsolved crime. The city didn't seem to care because
Speaker 1: the victims were of a criminal class.
Speaker 2: I think the whole experience affected Stuart in a couple
Speaker 2: of ways. Personally, I think it cemented his relationship with Alfred.
Speaker 2: I mean, you can only imagine they'd only been together
Speaker 2: a few months at that point. But it also rekindled
Speaker 2: in Stuart a long dormant desire to get involved with politics,
Speaker 2: and Stuart and Alfred got really politically motivated by the fire,
Speaker 2: but not really active until a few years later. What
Speaker 2: really enabled Stuart's activism was Alfred inheriting his fortune. Alfred
Speaker 2: came from a very wealthy family, and when he inherited
Speaker 2: that fortune, he told Stuart in nineteen seventy eight, I
Speaker 2: want you to retire from your job and become a
Speaker 2: full time queer activist, and Stewart said, of course yes.
Speaker 2: So one of the first things they did was they
Speaker 2: purchased this really historic, beautiful creole cottage on Esplanade Avenue,
Speaker 2: which is just a few blocks in the French Quarter,
Speaker 2: and a lot of organizing queer activism took place in
Speaker 2: that house. It's called the Faery Playhouse.
Speaker 1: So what was some of the activism that Suwart got
Speaker 1: involved in.
Speaker 2: The touchstone of the queer rights movement in New Orleans
Speaker 2: was really in nineteen seventy seven, which would have been
Speaker 2: four years after the fire, when Anita Bryant came to town.
Speaker 2: Anita Bryant was this popular singer, beauty queen kind of
Speaker 2: celebrity who was hired by the Florida Citrus Commission to
Speaker 2: sell their orange juice. And in nineteen seventy seven, Miami
Speaker 2: Dade County passed an ordnance affording protection from discrimination for gay,
Speaker 2: lesbian and employees of the city, and Anita Bryant was
Speaker 2: really homophobic, super religious. She thought that was bad because
Speaker 2: homosexuals are evil and we're going to bring usher in
Speaker 2: the end of the world, and we worship Satan in
Speaker 2: sacrifice kittens to the devil and blah blah blah. So
Speaker 2: she launches this campaign to have that ordinance repealed, and
Speaker 2: she was successful. They overturned it, and when that happened,
Speaker 2: she became the darling of the religious right. So she
Speaker 2: starts this national campaign called Save Our Children, and New
Speaker 2: Orleans was one of her first stops, and the local
Speaker 2: community we're like, we're going to have a protest rally.
Speaker 1: Even though Stuart witnessed many of his friends die in
Speaker 1: the fire, it would be another four years before he
Speaker 1: or any other queer activists in New Orleans would take action.
Speaker 1: The turning point was a concert that Anita Bryant was
Speaker 1: giving in nineteen seventy seven. She had become the spokesperson
Speaker 1: for the anti gay movement in America. Her main talking
Speaker 1: point was that homosexuals can't reproduce, so they have to
Speaker 1: recruit our children. She had successfully led a repeal of
Speaker 1: a gay rights ordinance in Miami, and her next move
Speaker 1: was to make sure that gay teachers would be banned
Speaker 1: from public schools. Her concert in New Orleans was a
Speaker 1: moment for the queer people there to finally organize. Stewart
Speaker 1: and several other activists planned a rally to protest it,
Speaker 1: but they weren't sure if many people would actually show up.
Speaker 2: They were astonished at the turnout, you know, because it
Speaker 2: was still very closeted at the time. They were probably
Speaker 2: hoping for maybe five hundred people. Was more like three
Speaker 2: or four thousand, And the timing was right, and that
Speaker 2: was like the first major significant public demonstration on behalf
Speaker 2: of clearer. It's not the first, but the first big one,
Speaker 2: and that was really a touchstone for the movement in
Speaker 2: New Orleans. And so Stuart went to the rally. He
Speaker 2: and Alfred marched and got really super involved after that.
Speaker 1: A few years after the Anita Bryant protest, Stuart realized
Speaker 1: the importance of gay people becoming politically active. If they
Speaker 1: didn't stand up for themselves, they would have no rights
Speaker 1: and would continue to be discriminated against or worse neglected
Speaker 1: like they were in the fire. So in nineteen eighty
Speaker 1: Stuart became a founding member of the Louisiana Lesbian and
Speaker 1: Gay Political Action Caucus or lag PACK. He was determined
Speaker 1: to enshrine gay protections into law. And so you know,
Speaker 1: as time goes on, what was Stuart able to accomplish
Speaker 1: as a result of this gumption to have equality for
Speaker 1: queer people after the fire.
Speaker 2: Well, he would tell you that his proudest accomplishment was
Speaker 2: his work with lag PACK and other groups when they
Speaker 2: convinced the New Orleans City Council to adopt a non
Speaker 2: discrimination ordinance affording gay and lesbian people protection here in
Speaker 2: New Orleans.
Speaker 1: What was the story of that ordinance and what was
Speaker 1: the significance of it.
Speaker 2: Well, the ordinance was first proposed in nineteen eighty four
Speaker 2: and it failed, and they tried it again in nineteen
Speaker 2: eighty six, and again it did not pass. And his
Speaker 2: back room, a lot of religious preachers and religious fanatics are,
Speaker 2: you know, spouting all these conspiracy theories and how dire
Speaker 2: it's going to be if they acknowledge that gay people exist.
Speaker 2: And the vote came and it failed, and one of
Speaker 2: the council members said, I didn't vote for this because
Speaker 2: you haven't proved your case. He said, I need evidence
Speaker 2: that you've been discriminated against, and that homophobic violence is
Speaker 2: an issue. And so they were disappointed when the vote came,
Speaker 2: but they all retired to a lesbian bar named Charlene's
Speaker 2: and they regrouped. And it was at that hearing and
Speaker 2: after party at Charlene's that Stuart met a man named
Speaker 2: Richard McGill, and McGill was very interested in getting involved.
Speaker 2: And mcgil said, if that council person wants to study done,
Speaker 2: I can do that. He's surveyed like over four thousand people.
Speaker 2: And so when they went back again in nineteen ninety
Speaker 2: one on the third try, they produced this report based
Speaker 2: on the survey they did, called Exposing Hatred. When it
Speaker 2: came time to vote, the council person, who had voted
Speaker 2: no last time said, I finally have my proof and
Speaker 2: I vote yes. And so when the ordinance was passed
Speaker 2: past five to two, the room just exploded in cheers
Speaker 2: and applause, and it was just a really great day
Speaker 2: for queer rights in New Orleans.
Speaker 1: And what was sort of a stake as he was
Speaker 1: fighting for this ordinance, Like from his perspective, why was
Speaker 1: it important?
Speaker 2: I think it was important in a very tangible way,
Speaker 2: so that people wouldn't have to worry about getting fired
Speaker 2: or being discriminated against regard to housing or employment or whatever.
Speaker 2: But more than that, more than those tangible benefits, it
Speaker 2: was a symbolic gesture that the paradigm shift in terms
Speaker 2: of public attitudes towards queerness were actually happening, that change
Speaker 2: was occurring, and it was something that he worked really
Speaker 2: hard on. He also was a very central figure in
Speaker 2: the trans rights movement as well, not just locally but nationally,
Speaker 2: which is odd because he was as cisgender old white
Speaker 2: gay man. You know. He and a trans woman named
Speaker 2: Courtney Sharp convinced the local p FLAG chapter in New
Speaker 2: Orleans to include trans people in their mission statement, which
Speaker 2: is one of the first p FLAG chapters to do that,
Speaker 2: and then they turned their attention to the national stage
Speaker 2: and they convinced. Took them several years, but they eventually
Speaker 2: persuaded national p FLAG in nineteen ninety eight to include
Speaker 2: trans people in their mission statement, and that was the
Speaker 2: first time a national LGB organization had done that. And
Speaker 2: so that's like a pretty important contribution to national trans
Speaker 2: history that came out of New Orleans as a direct
Speaker 2: result of Stuart Butler's activism, and I think he was
Speaker 2: pretty proud of that as well.
Speaker 1: You know, Frank, having been an expert on Stuart's life,
Speaker 1: I wonder for you, what do you think sort of
Speaker 1: sums up Stuart's impact on New Orleans and really the
Speaker 1: American South.
Speaker 2: I can tell you that queer organizing in New Orleans
Speaker 2: and the queer community in New Orleans would look a
Speaker 2: lot different if Stuart had not done what he did.
Speaker 2: And I think I would point to all the people,
Speaker 2: all the young people that he mentored, he saved, He
Speaker 2: actually literally provided housing for people that had been kicked
Speaker 2: out of their homes. His age activism was just profound.
Speaker 2: I mean, there are his home today, the Fairy Playhouse
Speaker 2: has a little memorial garden in the rear where there
Speaker 2: are like twenty two activists partially buried back there. So
Speaker 2: I can't put my finger on just one thing. His
Speaker 2: effect on the queer community New Orleans was pervasive and
Speaker 2: still lingers today in just about everything.
Speaker 1: In nineteen ninety seven, Stuart and lack Pack would champion
Speaker 1: a bill in the Louisiana State legislature that would enshrine
Speaker 1: protections for gape people at the state level. It would
Speaker 1: make Louisiana the first state in the Deep South to
Speaker 1: pass a hate crimes law protecting sexual orientation, and it
Speaker 1: would make New Orleans the official safe haven for queer
Speaker 1: people in the South. But Stuart's final project would come
Speaker 1: close to the end of his life, and it was
Speaker 1: about finding a way to pass down all of the
Speaker 1: culture and the history that he lived through to the
Speaker 1: next generation of queer people.
Speaker 2: The LGBT Plus Archives project was his last great project.
Speaker 2: He and I both started that when I guess he
Speaker 2: was must have been eighty two, and I'll never forget
Speaker 2: Today he called me and a few other people that
Speaker 2: were interested in queer history to his home at the
Speaker 2: Faery Playhouse and he had arranged like thirty twenty five
Speaker 2: or thirty banker's boxes. They were like, Stuart, what is
Speaker 2: all that shit? And he was like, these are papers
Speaker 2: and from all my activism, the minutes from meetings and
Speaker 2: agendas for board meetings and membership rosters and posters for
Speaker 2: protests and drag shows and this and that. And He's like,
Speaker 2: all this shit's going to be lost when I die.
Speaker 2: I don't know what's going to happen to it. We
Speaker 2: need to think about how we can preserve queer history
Speaker 2: because there are other people in issues too, and we
Speaker 2: thought that's a good point, and so he challenged us
Speaker 2: to meet at the Faery Playhouse once a month for
Speaker 2: a year and we just brainstormed what can we do
Speaker 2: to preserve queer history? And the result of those brainstorming
Speaker 2: meetings was the creation of a nonprofit organization called the
Speaker 2: LGBT Plus Archives Project of Louisiana. And so since twenty twelve,
Speaker 2: this organization has facilitated countless donations of substantial collections of
Speaker 2: material to museums, archival repositories, and libraries all across the state.
Speaker 2: And I think that is a real testimony to Stewart
Speaker 2: because it was his vision, it was his challenge, and
Speaker 2: he was a big part of that and he would
Speaker 2: be proud of the work we continue to do today.
Speaker 2: And I'm privileged also to serve as that organization's executive director.
Speaker 1: Now, Frank, for you, you're a historian, you are an
Speaker 1: LGBT storian. You're also a gay man yourself living in
Speaker 1: New Orleans, and I wonder what it was like for
Speaker 1: you to personally learn this history and to learn about
Speaker 1: Stuart and the impact that he had on your life.
Speaker 2: Oh well, I was incredibly fortunate to have met Stuart,
Speaker 2: and Stuart and I became very good friends. Stuart was
Speaker 2: I don't want to say he was like a father
Speaker 2: to me, but maybe a spiritual activist father to me
Speaker 2: and a good friend. I mean. I was with Stuart
Speaker 2: the night that he died. His friends knew the end
Speaker 2: was near, and they had a little pot lut gathering
Speaker 2: at his place. He was in the bed, kind of bedridden,
Speaker 2: drifting in and out of consciousness, and I remember holding
Speaker 2: his hand and said I was writing the book. I
Speaker 2: hadn't published the book at that time, but I was
Speaker 2: just about done with it. And I told him, you know,
Speaker 2: the book's going to go to print soon, and I
Speaker 2: think he's going to be pleased with He squeezed my hands,
Speaker 2: so I knew he couldn't understand what I was saying.
Speaker 2: And we set our goodbyes and we went home, and
Speaker 2: I got the call the next morning that he had
Speaker 2: passed away that night. And the thing that moved me
Speaker 2: the most was the amount of history this man impacted,
Speaker 2: the number of lives that he touched. He led a
Speaker 2: very consequential life, and I just feel so fortunate to
Speaker 2: have known him. He was an amazing name.
Speaker 1: Frank, you had mentioned that young people and mentorship was
Speaker 1: really important to him. If Stuart were alive here today,
Speaker 1: what do you think he would tell our audience, our
Speaker 1: listeners of this show.
Speaker 2: Well, the first thing he would say is probably a cheesy,
Speaker 2: flirtatious remark, because even at the age of eighty nine
Speaker 2: when he died, he still like to flirt with young people.
Speaker 2: He loved young people. But I think he would the
Speaker 2: advice he would give would be follow your dreams, follow
Speaker 2: your heart and if people don't share your vision, fuck him.
Speaker 2: Do what you feel is right in your heart. And
Speaker 2: I think he would say that they are perfectly capable
Speaker 2: of making a difference, even if they don't think they can.
Speaker 2: And I think anybody, the young people I think it
Speaker 2: meets to it would would just like everybody he met
Speaker 2: and would walk away feeling strengthened, edified, emboldened, encouraged, inspired.
Speaker 1: The show is called but We Loved. What do you
Speaker 1: think that means in the context of Stuart's life.
Speaker 2: I think I would on the conjunction, but because that
Speaker 2: implies something before, right, So Stuart loved, and he loved well,
Speaker 2: and he loved a lot. But that came at a cost.
Speaker 2: I mean that came at a lot of heartache and
Speaker 2: a lot of pain. To me, it speaks to all
Speaker 2: the obstacles he had to overcome, and gay men and
Speaker 2: women and trans people in that time period, the threat
Speaker 2: of being arrested, the age, epidence, the whole nine yards.
Speaker 2: Despite all that, But we Loved And that's what Stuart did.
Speaker 2: He overcame every obstacle life through at him, and he
Speaker 2: showed people his life was an example of how to
Speaker 2: love despite all this other bullshit. He really was a
Speaker 2: man who loved well.
Speaker 1: But We Loved is hosted by me Jordan Gonsolves. New
Speaker 1: episodes drop ever Wednesday. If you want to write in
Speaker 1: to tell your story, email us at Butweloved at gmail
Speaker 1: dot com or send us a message on Instagram or
Speaker 1: TikTok at but We Loved. We are a production of
Speaker 1: The Outspoken Podcast Network and iHeart Podcasts. But We Loved
Speaker 1: was originally developed with Pushkin Industries. Our producers Areshena Ozaki,
Speaker 1: Michael June, Emily Meronoff, and Joey pat Our executive producers
Speaker 1: are Me and Maya Howard. Original music by Steve Boone
Speaker 1: Special thanks to Jay Bronson and Rokel Willis. If you
Speaker 1: loved this episode, leave us a rating and follow us
Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts and Spotify, and thank you for listening.
Speaker 1: I'll see you next week.