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Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to

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Speaker 1: the show, follow Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so

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Speaker 1: much for tuning in. Let's hear it for the man,

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Speaker 1: the myth, the legend, our super producer Max, the free train, Williams.

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Speaker 2: To choo, you know, potato klimata, everything but the poop poop.

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Speaker 1: So we just for the silly rhyme that is none

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Speaker 1: other than mister Noel Brown. Noel, how you're feeling today?

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Speaker 2: And now I'm feeling fine, feeling fancy the footloosen, fancy

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Speaker 2: free as they say. Excited to talk about some Ottoman

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Speaker 2: Empire history with you today, sir, Oh.

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Speaker 1: Wow, sir, Yes, without a cravat. They do call me

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Speaker 1: Ben Bull and check out our ongoing conversation about what

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Speaker 1: doth define a cravat today. As you said, Noel, we

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Speaker 1: are returning to something that's been fascinating us for a while.

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Speaker 1: It's the Automan Empire.

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Speaker 2: Af you.

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Speaker 1: A while back, I can't remember what year it was,

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Speaker 1: we looked into something called the harem system of the

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Speaker 1: Ottoman Empire, which is not necessarily what we think of

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Speaker 1: when we think of harems here in the West, but

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Speaker 1: we also even more recently. Know, we've also spent some

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Speaker 1: time exploring the fact in fiction the myth and legends

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Speaker 1: surrounding elite fighting forces like Nights or Berserkers.

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Speaker 2: Bat back. I love those guys. Yeah, really charming, grated parties,

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Speaker 2: super fun hangs. Also jumping real quick.

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Speaker 3: It was July second and fourth of twenty twenty four,

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Speaker 3: which is kind of wild that that was over two

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Speaker 3: years ago that we did that episode about the Harems.

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Speaker 2: And another thing that's wild, Max, that you pointed out

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Speaker 2: to Ben and I off Mike, is that I believe

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Speaker 2: we've got something of a ridiculous anniversary coming up. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 2: it was ridiculous diversity.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, our nine year show of versary.

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Speaker 2: Wow, talk about that on base camp.

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Speaker 1: Yes, it's this October, folks, so wish us luck, Pat

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Speaker 1: us on the back, feed us orange slices, like folks

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Speaker 1: at the end of a marathon, right thing, orange slices.

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Speaker 2: That's vaguely Harem codd you know, like batting you with

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Speaker 2: like with palm leaves and feeding you fruits. You know,

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Speaker 2: was it wasn't?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Marlon Renders running out with an orange peel in

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Speaker 3: his mouth and Godfather and choke.

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Speaker 2: That's right, he was right, a silly goofy granddad. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And the cat who stole the show and the Godfather

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Speaker 1: was apparently I just learned this guy's a stray cat

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Speaker 1: that wandered on set and Marlin just said, I want

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Speaker 1: him in the.

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Speaker 2: Show, dude. Speaking of stuff like that, Ben, I just

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Speaker 2: found out. I don't know. This is not a spoiler,

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Speaker 2: but if you guys haven't seen Christopher Nolan's The Odyssey yet,

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Speaker 2: I look forward to chatting with you about it. But

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Speaker 2: there is a scene where it's just the most epic

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Speaker 2: sweeping ship kind of wide shot and there is just

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Speaker 2: a pod of dolphins that just are like leaping in

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Speaker 2: sync and it's like they see gi that. Nope, they

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Speaker 2: were just there and Nolan just kept the camera rolling.

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Speaker 2: I mean Nolan kept it rolling. It's incredible. It's honestly

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Speaker 2: one of the most memorable shots in the movie because

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Speaker 2: it just feels magic. It's I wasn't in love with

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Speaker 2: it at first, but the more I think about it,

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Speaker 2: and as I got further into it, I really began

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Speaker 2: to get invested. And I've been thinking about it a lot,

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Speaker 2: and I look forward to seeing it again.

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Speaker 1: And we can't wait to hear your thoughts on the

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Speaker 1: Odyssey and ancient empires, folks. The Automan Empire is quite

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Speaker 1: anomalous to a lot of Western discourse because it bridges

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Speaker 1: this gap between the medieval to the modern era. And

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Speaker 1: as we're going to learn in today's episode, they had

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Speaker 1: an elite fighting force all their own that began as

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Speaker 1: slaves and over time evolved into a ridiculous superpower. Their

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Speaker 1: name may be familiar to some of us who play

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Speaker 1: video games. This is the story of the Janissaries.

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Speaker 2: What I'm assuming this is from an assassin's creed situation.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the video game reference for sure. Okay, Max and

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Speaker 1: I we're actually talking a little bit off air about this,

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Speaker 1: sax to want to do it.

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Speaker 2: Never been a world that I've dipped my toe in,

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Speaker 2: but you guys are always screaming about I need to

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Speaker 2: give it a try.

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Speaker 3: This is from Seventh Street Revelations, which is I mean,

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Speaker 3: I think the SEO trilogy. It's the only one the

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Speaker 3: only games where they have the same assassin, same hero

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Speaker 3: amongst three. This is the third and final one, which

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Speaker 3: is cool because it bridges the SEO trilogy with the

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Speaker 3: with the original original protagonist all Tai Year it's really

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Speaker 3: cool because you're in Constantinople or by that point it's

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Speaker 3: just then.

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Speaker 2: Why cons down to no, we'll get them. That's business.

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Speaker 2: It's nobody's business but the Turks. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: But talking about the Turks, yeah, you deal with a

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Speaker 3: good bit of janissaries in the game, and man, they

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Speaker 3: are not fun when you run into a janisary, at

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Speaker 3: least not first.

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Speaker 1: Right, because they're an elite fighting force. Let's learn about

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Speaker 1: their origin story. First things first, fellow ridiculous historians, The

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Speaker 1: Ottoman Empire loved slavery.

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Speaker 2: Wow, that's one way of letting it get right to it.

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Speaker 2: I love that. And you know what, I don't love that.

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Speaker 2: Don't love slavery. Just loved them to turn a phrase.

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Speaker 2: You know what else? They loved them upholstered furniture. What

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Speaker 2: other empire gets like a piece of furniture that still

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Speaker 2: remains named directly after them and that is so functional

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Speaker 2: and good looking the autumn. Yeah, bad guys really into slavery.

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Speaker 1: Super duper into it. Their empire depended upon the practice

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Speaker 1: of enslaving conquered people. And we learned about this a

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Speaker 1: little bit now our previous exploration of the Harem system

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Speaker 1: The Automan Empire was such a big deal from the

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Speaker 1: late twelve hundreds CE up until the early nineteen hundreds

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Speaker 1: and before it fell, the Ottoman Empire stretched across three

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Speaker 1: separate continents. They gobbled up parts of Western Asia, Eastern Europe,

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Speaker 1: North Africa. This is still, in twenty twenty six, one

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Speaker 1: of the largest and longest lasting empires in history.

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Speaker 2: It sure was. And you know, that love of slavery,

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Speaker 2: they didn't come up with it on their own. They

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Speaker 2: inherited it from the previous empire, the Byzantine Empire. Then,

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Speaker 2: when people refer to something as being Byzantine, doesn't that

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Speaker 2: mean kind of like a little bit overly elaborate. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: it means very complex, Labytine. Yeah, there we go, because

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Speaker 2: they were into all that kind of stuff. Uh, yeah, they.

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Speaker 1: Were into They very much had a complex system of adjudication,

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Speaker 1: rule of law, and so on. And I love your point.

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Speaker 3: They were the Romans when the Romans got too far

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Speaker 3: up their own ass.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, take from the Roman Empire.

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, they came after the fall of Rome as

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Speaker 1: a less successful spin off, is the way Kevin Page

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Speaker 1: would put it. From Marvel And with this, you know,

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Speaker 1: hands on misery to man, as Philip Larkin said, and

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Speaker 1: I love the point you're making there, knowl that the

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Speaker 1: Ottomans didn't come up with this idea of slavery on

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Speaker 1: their own. They got up from the Byzantines, and they

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Speaker 1: also combined it with Islamic thought, which at that point

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Speaker 1: was already an established institution. And you know, as villainous

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Speaker 1: as it is, as unclean as it is, we have

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Speaker 1: to realize that for a great deal of human history

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Speaker 1: in slaving other people was kind of more the rule

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Speaker 1: that it was the exception.

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Speaker 2: It was the name of the game. And I mean,

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Speaker 2: I know I said they were bad guys, I'm sure

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Speaker 2: there were some some good folks among them. We also

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Speaker 2: have to remember that a lot of our forefathers, you know,

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Speaker 2: in these United States, were slave owners. And this isn't

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Speaker 2: giving anyone a path, but it is sometimes needs to

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Speaker 2: be tempered a little bit. This idea of they were horrible,

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Speaker 2: horrific people. You need to take a little bit of

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Speaker 2: an account of what was going on historically.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it was definitely normal for people empower for a

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Speaker 1: long time to enslave others. And part of this was

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Speaker 1: because most rulers back in the day thought they were

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Speaker 1: divinely chosen to run everything. They didn't see a problem

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Speaker 1: with it at all, because they thought slavery was just

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Speaker 1: another job perk of being better than everyone else. But

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Speaker 1: it is interesting, Nola Max that slavery was incredibly complex

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Speaker 1: in the Ottoman Empire and was distinct from the system

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Speaker 1: of later slavery in the United States.

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Speaker 2: Right, And it wasn't as directly race based as it

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Speaker 2: became like in the United States, Like wouldn't people be

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Speaker 2: enslaved if they were conquered, for example? It was like

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Speaker 2: there was lots of different criteria for qualifying to be

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Speaker 2: a slave, right.

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Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, in slavery, in chattel slavery in the United States,

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Speaker 1: the slave and overseers were first off, they were very

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Speaker 1: racially based. Obviously, they were entirely racially based. And they

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Speaker 1: were not incentivized to keep these people, they're victims alive.

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Speaker 1: They were overworking folks in horrific conditions, and they said, look,

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Speaker 1: these are not people, these are property. They're cheap, they're

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Speaker 1: easily replaceable. So it is more economically feasible, say the

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Speaker 1: American slave owners, to push people to the breaking point

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Speaker 1: and then just buy more people as our original victims

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Speaker 1: die from abuse, malnutrition, fatigue, disease, and most slaves in

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Speaker 1: the United States systems were black or native people. So

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Speaker 1: to these slave owners, this class would have booked at

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Speaker 1: the idea of what they saw as a white or

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Speaker 1: European slave. The Automan Empire had it, as you were saying,

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Speaker 1: entirely based on religion more so than skin color. They

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Speaker 1: thought God was telling them who it was okay to enslave,

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Speaker 1: but it was God telling them if this person doesn't

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Speaker 1: follow Islam or your version of Islam, then they're up

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Speaker 1: for grabs.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and once these folks were conquered and captured, they

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Speaker 2: would be sold at a market. They were then placed

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Speaker 2: in a variety of jobs, not all just hard labor.

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Speaker 2: Some would of course be that some involved joining the military. Others,

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Speaker 2: depending on the abilities of the folks that enslave, might

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Speaker 2: become craftsmen or members of guilds harems as we mentioned

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Speaker 2: before on that other episode that apparently happened quite a

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Speaker 2: long time ago. Or it could even be a post

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Speaker 2: in kind of an admin role, like overseeing bureaucracy, you know,

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Speaker 2: administering paperwork and things like that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, this meant real idea where this religious rubric

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Speaker 1: for enslavement meant that the Ottoman Empire would snatch people

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Speaker 1: from Eastern Europe, the Caucuses, Central Asia, et cetera, and

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Speaker 1: war captives where they're primary victims. And one thing that, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I love that you're pointing this out. It escapes a

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Speaker 1: lot of people in the West. Some slaves had the

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Speaker 1: Automan equivalent of an office job. So let's just imagine, guys,

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Speaker 1: if you go to your local DMV and you realize

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Speaker 1: everybody on the other side of the counter is an

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Speaker 1: enslaved prisoner of war from a few years back, and

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Speaker 1: you know sometimes the DMV does act like that.

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Speaker 2: That's fair.

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Speaker 3: Also, if I can jump in he real quick, I'm

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Speaker 3: going to reference the Futurama episode here. I don't know

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Speaker 3: if this is aged perfectly, but it's in Futurama, so

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Speaker 3: get mad at them. But there's an episode where they

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Speaker 3: go looks basically a space like Egypt, and Bender becomes

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Speaker 3: the Pharaoh, and there is a scene where like Bender's

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Speaker 3: is always whipping everybody where they're basically the guys, like

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Speaker 3: the architects, and then they're in their suits, they're looking

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Speaker 3: at it and they' getting whipped And that's exactly what

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Speaker 3: I thought about when you reference that.

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Speaker 1: Then, right, yeah, bender Pharaoh Futurama episode, let's see which

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Speaker 1: one that is. Oh, it is a pharaoh to remember

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Speaker 1: the seventeenth episode of the third season of Futurama.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I'm gonna check that one out. Oh, like an

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Speaker 2: affair to remember? Okay, thank you? Oh oh and unrelated,

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Speaker 2: but guys, there's a new season of King of the

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Speaker 2: Hill and Hulu that just dropped a whole new season. It's

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Speaker 2: so good.

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Speaker 1: That's great, I'll check it out.

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Speaker 2: Man.

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Speaker 1: We also have to recognize, you know, your earlier point

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Speaker 1: there Noel about people being enslaved and becoming prominent members

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Speaker 1: of the administration. This meant that slaves could and did

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Speaker 1: attain these astonishing levels of influence and power within Ottoman society.

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Speaker 1: Was still terrible obviously being enslaved, but arguably.

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Speaker 2: Form of meritocracy kind of like isolated, you know, like

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Speaker 2: I mean, they could rise in the ranks potentially, I guess,

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Speaker 2: is what we're saying.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and arguably it's still not as bad as

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Speaker 1: the American system of dyeing and cotton and cane fields,

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Speaker 1: where your life expectancy could be as little as like

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Speaker 1: six years.

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Speaker 2: And again, just to be clear, we are not saying

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Speaker 2: like they did slavery better, even though they kind of did.

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Speaker 2: But slavery is bad no matter how you do it. So,

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Speaker 2: but I think the kind of weighing the two systems

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Speaker 2: makes sense.

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Speaker 3: If a very good looking poop.

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Speaker 1: There we go, that's a that's a great way to

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Speaker 1: say its so for our purposes tonight, now you have

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Speaker 1: a little bit of context about the Ottoman Empire, do

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Speaker 1: check out our episodes on how harems actually worked. We

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Speaker 1: want to talk about another aspect of their intricate dare

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Speaker 1: we say Byzantine slavery system.

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Speaker 2: It's the child tax.

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Speaker 1: This is the origin of the janissaries.

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Speaker 2: Oh.

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Speaker 1: Janissary, by the way, comes from a Turkish word that

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Speaker 1: means new soldier or like looking.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and so what would happen is Ottoman forests would conquer,

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Speaker 2: you know, they would move out in search of conquest,

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Speaker 2: conquer it take on these slaves. This often involved calling

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Speaker 2: the population in terms of like you know, separating the

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Speaker 2: old wheat from the chaff aka, killing old people and

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Speaker 2: then enslaving young men, making them into galley slaves or soldiers. Women.

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Speaker 2: Of course, would be targeted to become sex workers and

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Speaker 2: part of these harems or housemaids, handmaids, that kind of thing,

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Speaker 2: how servants. So the government then instituted a one fifth

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Speaker 2: tax on slaves taken during war, and from this pool

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Speaker 2: of manpower, either the sultan at the time Oran or

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Speaker 2: his son Murai came up with the idea of kind

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Speaker 2: of sorting them out into these janissaries or elite groups

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Speaker 2: of soldiers. In this case, this would be to create

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Speaker 2: a personal army, like answering only to the sultan himself.

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Speaker 2: So it's like like the King's guard in Game of

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Speaker 2: Thrones world right, right.

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Speaker 1: Right, or like those guys on January sixth. This is

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Speaker 1: one of the things. Yeah right, Okay, we walked out

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Speaker 1: the three for it. It's fine, But this is one

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Speaker 1: of the this is brilliant. Well, this is one of

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Speaker 1: the world's first actual standing armies. We have to remember

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Speaker 1: before this point in this part of the world, most

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Speaker 1: fighting forces were civilian conscripts or mercenaries. So after a

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Speaker 1: big fight is over, after your big Daddy makes you

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Speaker 1: go and risk your life, if you survive, you go

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Speaker 1: back to your normal job, which is statistically going to

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Speaker 1: be small scale farming. You're a surf again, you hunt

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Speaker 1: you fish.

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Speaker 2: Speaking a big dad. He's been the only beef I had.

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Speaker 2: One of very few with The Odyssey was the fact

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Speaker 2: that little Tom holland little baby boy character kept referring

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Speaker 2: to Odysseus as my dad. I gotta go find my dad.

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Speaker 2: It just it took me out of it every time

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Speaker 2: he said. And he would vacillate between that and father.

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Speaker 2: But I'm like, pick a lane and make it be father,

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Speaker 2: because saying dad and being dressed in the sword and

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Speaker 2: sandals garb. But just it felt odd. And I know

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Speaker 2: a lot of people have made that complaint, but there

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Speaker 2: you go.

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Speaker 1: Also, one thing I can say about Chris's duist film

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Speaker 1: is that no Greeks were harmed in the production because

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Speaker 1: there were no Greeks in there.

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Speaker 2: That's true. That also did become the base of a

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Speaker 2: pretty gnarly, you know, racist take on the casting, which

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Speaker 2: doesn't seem to have harmed the box office take.

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Speaker 1: Just leave it absolutely not. Yeah, and this is so

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Speaker 1: what we're saying is all of the other empires and

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Speaker 1: would be world rulers and doctor dooms in the area,

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Speaker 1: they did not have a standing army. The Automan Empire

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Speaker 1: figured it out with this slave army of the Janis series.

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Speaker 1: They were one thing and one thing only fighting men.

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Speaker 2: Ooh, I wonder if this would have been I'm sorry,

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Speaker 2: I keep Game of Thrones of fying things. But the

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Speaker 2: Unsullied remember that that was like a yeah, they were

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Speaker 2: they A lot of them were slaves. They were slaves

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Speaker 2: and they were.

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Speaker 1: Not castrated.

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Speaker 2: That's right, but some of the just correct. But but

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Speaker 2: I think there are some historical parallels. As we know,

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Speaker 2: mister Martin does love to do that. It feels like

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Speaker 2: he maybe was thinking a little bit about the Turks.

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Speaker 1: Alle hundred percent. There's a lot of Near Eastern or

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Speaker 1: Western Asian history wrapped up in in the Song of

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Speaker 1: Ice and Fire series. And George, if you're tuning in, man,

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Speaker 1: don't stress out. Just publish Winds of Winter.

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Speaker 2: You can catch your back to do it. Man. I

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Speaker 2: don't think he's gonna do it. I hope he does,

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Speaker 2: you know. I saw a take on that that I

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Speaker 2: thought was very interesting because of how hated the conclusion

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Speaker 2: of the teach this series was. I think he's just

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Speaker 2: stuck where he's like, well, that was kind of how

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Speaker 2: I was going to do it now, I got to

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Speaker 2: do it different, and I don't know how to proceed,

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Speaker 2: so I'm just going to work on literally anything else.

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Speaker 2: And I don't need the money, so you.

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Speaker 1: Know, right right, And he also George, thank you for

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Speaker 1: tuning in. George also knows one of the big turns

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Speaker 1: for the janissaries here. The Empire has instituted this practice

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Speaker 1: of a child tax or dev serme, and this is

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Speaker 1: a system of tribute where every five years or so,

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Speaker 1: Christian kids, boys ranging from the age of eight to eighteen,

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Speaker 1: are abducted from their homes, largely in the Balkan provinces.

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Speaker 1: At first, they're drafted into Ottoman service just like the

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Speaker 1: unsullied Dude great comparison. They get subjected to strict rules,

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Speaker 1: including celibacy for the length of their.

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Speaker 2: Careers, conditioning, mental and physical. Yep, they're forced to convert

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Speaker 2: to Islam, swear fealty to the Sultan on pain of death.

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Speaker 2: They have to live in these barracks away from society.

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Speaker 2: They're also forcefully circumcised, which you know, for anybody who

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Speaker 2: has been circumcised, it usually occurs shortly after your birth,

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Speaker 2: So imagine being seventeen good at that and then a

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Speaker 2: lot of this too reminds me of some conversations we've

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Speaker 2: had on stuff they don't want you to know about

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Speaker 2: Seer School and about like some of the elite, you know,

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Speaker 2: special ops, you know, forces in the US military that

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Speaker 2: are subjected to these really really intense regimens of like

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Speaker 2: psychological conditioning in order to you know, basically feel no

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Speaker 2: pain and be able to be complete warmish.

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Speaker 1: Like how the Unsullied spoiler three to one spoilers are

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Speaker 1: are invited to raise a puppy and then have to

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Speaker 1: kill it as part of their training. So after you

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Speaker 1: after you survive this indoctrination, after you get your shaken

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Speaker 1: bake and you're booted in, you're called a chenne or

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Speaker 1: a chemi. We don't speak Turkish folks very well, which

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Speaker 1: just means new recruit. And you have to go to

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Speaker 1: a special cadet school in the capital city and then

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Speaker 1: you get you get the equivalent of the ottoman asvab

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Speaker 1: asvab is what people joining the military in the US

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Speaker 1: have to take. It's a test that decides what your

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Speaker 1: role is going to be. So if you've got a

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Speaker 1: great aim, you become a rifleman. As they figure out

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Speaker 1: firepower or an archer, artillery artisan, if you're very you know,

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Speaker 1: good with your hands, engineers, if you can do math.

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Speaker 1: You can't have any other job while you're a janissary

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Speaker 1: because you're still a slave, but you are increasingly slave.

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Speaker 1: Plus which sounds terrible to say, you get paid a

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Speaker 1: regular salary and if you survive.

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Speaker 2: It's a path to retirement almost right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, if you survive up to like your forties

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Speaker 1: or so that you can retire in the Ottoman Empire

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Speaker 1: pretty much as a person.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 3: And then jump in here again I have to reference

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Speaker 3: that Sam Few Drama said again a scene where Fry's

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Speaker 3: complaining and Fry goes, you know, the worst part about

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Speaker 3: being a slave is, Yeah, you have to work all day.

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Speaker 3: You don't get paid. And Leila's like, Fry, that's like

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Speaker 3: the only part of being a slave.

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Speaker 2: It's true. It's true, Leela's on it. So once you're retired, though,

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Speaker 2: Ben to your point, you could take a spouse, you

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Speaker 2: could even start a business. You were able to work

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Speaker 2: in government. Why you would want to do that after

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Speaker 2: all of that, I do not know. It seems like,

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Speaker 2: you know, maybe the marrying, starting a business and just

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Speaker 2: taking it easy might be the move. Hell, maybe you

387
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Speaker 2: just really are craving bureaucracy. So similar to how joining

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Speaker 2: the French Foreign Legion would eventually give legioneers citizenship French citizenship,

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Speaker 2: former janissaries could in practice achieve a social position equal

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Speaker 2: to or even exceeding that of a non enslaved civilian who,

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Speaker 2: you know, comparatively were born on third base. These janissaries

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Speaker 2: really had to work their way up through the ranks,

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Speaker 2: but the system was designed for them to be able

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Speaker 2: to do that to a degree. Again, I gues it

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Speaker 2: keeps out on like we're like, good job, guys, you

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Speaker 2: did slavery so much better. But it did seem like

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Speaker 2: there was a path towards living a normal life. And

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Speaker 2: again to your point, Ben, that is if you survived

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Speaker 2: some very dangerous conditions, you know, protecting the Sultan. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Because these guys are relied, they're like special operations,

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Speaker 1: and for centuries, the janissaries are the baddest boys on

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Speaker 1: the block. They get this fearsome reputation because they are

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Speaker 1: the first military corps to do stuff like use firearms

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Speaker 1: in a normalized way. They're always doing drills. They totally

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Speaker 1: outplass the pop up armies of foreign powers. This is

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Speaker 1: one of the main reasons why the Automan Empire expanded

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Speaker 1: so quickly across the Mediterranean and the Balkans. But the

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Speaker 1: Automan Empire wasn't always at war, right, So where do

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Speaker 1: you put these enslaved killers in times of peace? You

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Speaker 1: make them palace guards, you make them local law enforcement,

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Speaker 1: you make them firefighters, and more and more a lot

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Speaker 1: to your earlier point, they're no more and more. A

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Speaker 1: lot of regular folks envied the life of the janiss

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Speaker 1: area and they were like, this is less of a

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Speaker 1: death sentence. This is more like a really cool career.

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Speaker 1: Because some people, even some former janisaries, became governors of provinces.

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Speaker 1: They one guy became the grand Vizier, which is the

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Speaker 1: most powerful nonsultant office in the land.

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Speaker 2: Mm hmmm. Wasn't that what Ja'afar was in Aladdin? He

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Speaker 2: was the grand Vizier. Yeah. Yeah, so you don't necessarily

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Speaker 2: have to be a beard stroking villain to be a

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Speaker 2: grand vizier. He was just a bad He was a

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Speaker 2: bad one. He was just a bad guy.

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Speaker 1: Unfortunately coded in some ways that probably messed with kids' heads.

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Speaker 1: But he uh, like think about it. Let's say the

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Speaker 1: four of us are just regular civilians in the Ottoman Empire.

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Speaker 1: We own a fruit stand. It's our businesses, fruit stand,

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Speaker 1: cradle to grave, that's what we do. And then we

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Speaker 1: learned that a peasant boy from the Balkans had been

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Speaker 1: taken in abducted because of this child tax, this deshmih,

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Speaker 1: and then they end up being a great commander of armies.

432
00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:57,840
Speaker 1: They end up running the province where we've had a

433
00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:01,440
Speaker 1: fruit stand for two hundred and fifty years. We could

434
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:04,080
Speaker 1: ever do this. And also if we asked that guy,

435
00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:08,320
Speaker 1: that janissary was now a general, if we asked them

436
00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:12,640
Speaker 1: what their life was like in the Balkans, they might

437
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:17,320
Speaker 1: have had a better life them specifically as a general,

438
00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:20,879
Speaker 1: than they would have ever had as a surf in

439
00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:23,200
Speaker 1: the suppressed region of Christian Europe.

440
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:28,159
Speaker 2: For sure. And you know, it's makes me wonder. I

441
00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:33,320
Speaker 2: guess this was an elite army that directly protected the sultan,

442
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:35,960
Speaker 2: but there would still have been a fighting force that

443
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:39,000
Speaker 2: was not a volunteer base. But that would have there

444
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:43,040
Speaker 2: would have been the conscription, I imagine. Yeah, there was conscription

445
00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:47,080
Speaker 2: very common with the citizen. Ye yeah, yeah.

446
00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:50,560
Speaker 1: And also there were people who signed up to be

447
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:55,160
Speaker 1: the janissaries, great rivals from what would become them the cavalry,

448
00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:59,000
Speaker 1: the horse mounted guys, but the janissaries, they're getting more

449
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:02,160
Speaker 1: and more power these centuries. Over time and their system

450
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:06,359
Speaker 1: begins to change. It's so weird, folks, we were talking

451
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:10,320
Speaker 1: about this of the research. If you were a student

452
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:15,200
Speaker 1: of American history, the idea that any civilian would sign

453
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:20,280
Speaker 1: up for slavery seems patently absurd. But by the sixteen hundreds,

454
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:26,960
Speaker 1: the recruitment policy of janissaries began to relax, and civilians say,

455
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:31,080
Speaker 1: like our four friendly fruit stand owners, they saved up money,

456
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:36,080
Speaker 1: they bought their way into janissary membership because it would

457
00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:38,919
Speaker 1: approve their socioeconomic status.

458
00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:42,480
Speaker 2: That's wild, man, I mean that this really was a

459
00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:49,240
Speaker 2: system that had some perks despite it literally being slavery. Yeah.

460
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:53,600
Speaker 1: And the janissaries won the right to marry during their time.

461
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:57,119
Speaker 1: They also, perhaps more importantly in this kind of society,

462
00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:04,200
Speaker 1: they won the right of hereditary secession, right so they

463
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:07,520
Speaker 1: could enroll their own sons. Their sons didn't have to

464
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:12,520
Speaker 1: be kidnapped from wherever. Instead, their sons could be raised

465
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:16,560
Speaker 1: in a janissary household. They would get the perks. Also,

466
00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:21,720
Speaker 1: janissaries could start their own businesses and outside trades. By

467
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:25,960
Speaker 1: sixty ninety nine, at the height of the organization, there

468
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:31,000
Speaker 1: were slightly less than sixty eight thousand of these folks.

469
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:35,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, they had in some ways, you know, especially the

470
00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:37,200
Speaker 2: folks that had been in the system for a while

471
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:41,280
Speaker 2: and moved their way up, quite a significant number of privileges.

472
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:44,800
Speaker 2: The janissaries were indeed moving on up and became part

473
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 2: of the ruling class in a certain sense, with power

474
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:53,920
Speaker 2: rivaling that of the traditional members of an aristocracy. From

475
00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 2: the sault in the view, however, he's starting to worry

476
00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:58,360
Speaker 2: a little bit about them maybe getting a little too

477
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:03,160
Speaker 2: big for their breeches and exactly how much potential political

478
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:05,600
Speaker 2: power they might be able to wield.

479
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:09,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, and we all know the tendency of humans. With

480
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:12,240
Speaker 1: a little bit of power, they become protective of it,

481
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 1: and typically they want more. So it is no surprise

482
00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:23,120
Speaker 1: that the janisaries became a reactionary conservative force by this point.

483
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:25,600
Speaker 1: We have to remember a lot of these guys were

484
00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:31,000
Speaker 1: in practice not really elite soldiers. They were shopkeepers with

485
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:34,760
Speaker 1: a pedigree. They were still getting their army pay. They

486
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:38,520
Speaker 1: fought the government to get regular raises. They were way

487
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:43,320
Speaker 1: more interested in protecting their perks than they weren't actually fighting.

488
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 1: And this was a problem because the rest of the

489
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:52,400
Speaker 1: powers in Western Europe are learning lessons continually they modernize

490
00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:57,760
Speaker 1: their military. The Ottoman forces are increasingly outdated and less

491
00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:03,239
Speaker 1: effective and then obsolete because whenever the Sultan seeks to

492
00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:08,680
Speaker 1: modernize the janissaries or modernize the military, the janissaries feel

493
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 1: their position, their catbird seed is under threat and they

494
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:16,880
Speaker 1: start reacting with rebellion. The thing is they can execute

495
00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:21,320
Speaker 1: on their threats.

496
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:26,600
Speaker 2: Well, it wasn't unfounded that the Sultan might have been

497
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 2: a little concerned about the potential for them to organize,

498
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:33,440
Speaker 2: and they could indeed follow through with those threats. An

499
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:37,800
Speaker 2: attempt by Osman the second to kind of get them,

500
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:40,160
Speaker 2: whip them back into shape, get them to get back

501
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:45,560
Speaker 2: in line, involved cutting their pay, did not go well.

502
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:51,120
Speaker 2: He was executed at the hands of the janissaries. They

503
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 2: frequently were able to engineer palace various palace coups, and

504
00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:01,040
Speaker 2: one particular example of this, they conspire with officials of

505
00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:05,000
Speaker 2: the court to overthrow Ibraheim because he was as a

506
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:09,320
Speaker 2: bad governor. He's a bad ruler, not good. So they

507
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:13,040
Speaker 2: really did have all of this unintended, at least as

508
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:15,680
Speaker 2: far as, like you know, the sultan is concerned power

509
00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:20,160
Speaker 2: and influence. This was the Automan equivalent of the kinds

510
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:23,479
Speaker 2: of military cups we might see throughout history.

511
00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:28,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, even in the modern day. And so if

512
00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:31,800
Speaker 1: you were, if we're looking at the janissary perspective over

513
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:36,360
Speaker 1: this time, they're very successful as a demographic right, as

514
00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:39,680
Speaker 1: a portion of the population. They get better treatment, they

515
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:44,120
Speaker 1: get more money, they consider themselves increasingly above the rule

516
00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:48,000
Speaker 1: of law. These factors lead to the fall of the Janissaries,

517
00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:50,239
Speaker 1: but not just that, they lead to the fall of

518
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:54,520
Speaker 1: the Ottoman Empire overall. So how did the world end

519
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:58,160
Speaker 1: up putting their feet on the furniture of this once

520
00:31:58,320 --> 00:31:59,600
Speaker 1: terrifying nation.

521
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:02,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a good question, man, a question the historians

522
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:06,240
Speaker 2: have been asking for quite some time, and they many

523
00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:08,640
Speaker 2: of the folks looking into this trace the fall of

524
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:12,720
Speaker 2: the Janissaries to something called the auspicious incident, which is.

525
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:15,000
Speaker 1: You could tell the Sultan wrote that one.

526
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:17,400
Speaker 2: Very direct, Yeah, for sure. And this took place in

527
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:21,960
Speaker 2: June of eighteen twenty six. So the janissaries did another

528
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:26,240
Speaker 2: one of their revolts after learning of a new was

529
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:27,640
Speaker 2: it a new fighting force.

530
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:31,800
Speaker 1: Ben, Yeah, yeah, there's a new fighting force that the

531
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:35,880
Speaker 1: Sultan is making. Says, hey, we've got to catch this

532
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:38,920
Speaker 1: is like eighteen twenty six, right, like we said, the auspicious.

533
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:41,560
Speaker 1: They were falling behind, like you said, right, And so

534
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:47,720
Speaker 1: the Sultan rightly says, we need new modernized troops that

535
00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:51,960
Speaker 1: can fight toe to toe with these jerks from Western Europe.

536
00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:55,720
Speaker 1: The Janissaries say, no way, we want to keep our thing.

537
00:32:55,960 --> 00:33:01,520
Speaker 1: And thus Sultan Bachmud the second declares war on the Janissaries.

538
00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:05,640
Speaker 1: He says, you were all rebels. Lay down your arms,

539
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:09,200
Speaker 1: you know, bend the knee. And the Janissaries say no,

540
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 1: And so the Sultan has his new forces fire a

541
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:19,200
Speaker 1: bunch of cannons on the barracks where the Janissaries live.

542
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:23,200
Speaker 1: Most of them are killed. Those who survive are taken prisoner,

543
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:26,800
Speaker 1: but not for long because a little bit after this,

544
00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:32,960
Speaker 1: the Sultan orders that six thousand of them be executed.

545
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:37,360
Speaker 2: Yeah that's true, man, And the goal of this, you know,

546
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:41,160
Speaker 2: getting rid of the janissaries ultimately ended up being a

547
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:44,760
Speaker 2: bit of a moot point, because this was all kind

548
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:48,640
Speaker 2: of band aid stuff. Because the Ottoman Empire was woefully

549
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:52,720
Speaker 2: behind the times in terms of other world powers, and

550
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 2: there was no way they were ever going to catch up.

551
00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:59,120
Speaker 2: So the Janissaries were, you know, squashed, but it was

552
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:01,880
Speaker 2: kind of all for because the Ottoman military power just

553
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:04,960
Speaker 2: was never ever going to catch up to the West. Absolutely.

554
00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:10,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, So the Janissaries are effectively disbanded, violently disbanded by

555
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:14,200
Speaker 1: Mahmud the second, and he goes on to create this

556
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:18,880
Speaker 1: new modernized army or westernized army. After he recruits like

557
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:22,120
Speaker 1: twelve thousand troops, he gives him a cool name, the

558
00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 1: Trained Victorious Soldiers of Mohammed or the Mansur Army for short.

559
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:32,320
Speaker 1: They expand to like twenty seven thousand guys by eighteen

560
00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:36,239
Speaker 1: thirty eight. All fighting corps of the Ottoman Empire are

561
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:40,000
Speaker 1: included in this. They change its name to the Ordered Troops.

562
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:44,080
Speaker 1: This last until the end of the empire, but it's

563
00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:47,880
Speaker 1: in a state of steady, deadly decline. Like you were saying,

564
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:51,200
Speaker 1: the writing had been on the wall for a while.

565
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:55,920
Speaker 1: The defeat of the Ottoman Empire World War One, that's

566
00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:59,280
Speaker 1: the nail in the coffin, right, that's the last veil

567
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:01,279
Speaker 1: in the harem.

568
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:04,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, you may, you know, be asking yourself, gosh, I

569
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:07,880
Speaker 2: haven't really heard of much about a sultan in recent memory,

570
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:10,640
Speaker 2: and that's because the sultanate as it was referred to,

571
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:15,120
Speaker 2: was officially abolished on the first of November nineteen twenty two.

572
00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:19,440
Speaker 2: The very last sultan was Memed the sixth, who ran

573
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:22,279
Speaker 2: from nineteen eighteen to nineteen twenty two and then was

574
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:25,680
Speaker 2: exiled and left the country on the seventeenth of November

575
00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:29,560
Speaker 2: nineteen twenty two the same year. So, you know, the

576
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:32,360
Speaker 2: age that we're describing here of the janisaries is long gone.

577
00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:36,280
Speaker 2: There are, of course, cultural remnants of this system. Yeah.

578
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:41,320
Speaker 1: Absolutely. One of our favorites comes from Nawsa, Greece janissaries

579
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:45,080
Speaker 1: and booze. This dates back to the seventeen hundreds. It's

580
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:49,520
Speaker 1: supposed to celebrate an event in seventeen oh five when

581
00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:55,320
Speaker 1: Turkish forces were attempting a child tax and the natives

582
00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 1: rebelled and they fought off the Turkish guys trying to

583
00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:03,360
Speaker 1: steal their kids. The Ottomans came back, they killed tons

584
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:06,520
Speaker 1: and tons of locals, and so the next year, instead

585
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:10,880
Speaker 1: of holding a memorial service for the victims, the people

586
00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:14,160
Speaker 1: of this town in Greece put on costumes and masks

587
00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:17,759
Speaker 1: so that the Turks couldn't recognize them, and they re

588
00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:21,359
Speaker 1: enacted in public protests the events of seventeen oh five.

589
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:24,000
Speaker 1: That's the story. You can check it out now. The

590
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:26,080
Speaker 1: festival still continues every year.

591
00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:30,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like a carnival type cell. Yeah, very much so.

592
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:33,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, and the masks are cool, the costumes are cool,

593
00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:38,680
Speaker 1: The Janisaries are I think we could call them ridiculous

594
00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:43,160
Speaker 1: history because they rose from such harsh, evil conditions to

595
00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:46,680
Speaker 1: become a superpower and then became their own enemy.

596
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:49,920
Speaker 2: It did got a little big for their own bridges,

597
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:53,560
Speaker 2: I suppose. But yeah, no, it's fascinating. I can't really

598
00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:56,480
Speaker 2: think of any other examples quite like it of this,

599
00:36:56,760 --> 00:37:01,440
Speaker 2: you know, version of slavery that became almost like attractive

600
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:02,919
Speaker 2: to non slaves. Yeah.

601
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:05,640
Speaker 1: Can you imagine it's so weird for us as Americans, folks.

602
00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:09,840
Speaker 1: Can you imagine looking around and saying, well, that guy's

603
00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:13,279
Speaker 1: technically enslave, but hot dog is does he have a

604
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:13,840
Speaker 1: good job.

605
00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:16,440
Speaker 2: It'd be almost the equivalent of us being like, gosh,

606
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:19,600
Speaker 2: those inmates in prison they're getting their square meals and stuff.

607
00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:21,080
Speaker 2: They really got it better. I mean, you know, you

608
00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:23,200
Speaker 2: have to be in a pretty gnarly situation to think that,

609
00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:27,040
Speaker 2: and that certainly was the case. But also some of

610
00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:31,160
Speaker 2: these janissaries did have some significant privileges, so you wouldn't

611
00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:32,719
Speaker 2: have even, like you said, it could have just been

612
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:36,000
Speaker 2: these humble fruit stand owners that had like paid their

613
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:38,239
Speaker 2: way and worked their whole lives to earn kind of

614
00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:41,960
Speaker 2: a menial income, and then seeing these enslaved people that

615
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:43,760
Speaker 2: were rising away above their station.

616
00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:47,800
Speaker 1: Mm hmm, exactly. I'm tired of coming home for twelve

617
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:51,479
Speaker 1: hours of work, had to stand steaking of figs. Why

618
00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:52,160
Speaker 1: are these.

619
00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:55,640
Speaker 2: Guys so sneaking a fix? Why are these guys so ahead?

620
00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:59,160
Speaker 1: Well, they were ahead for a time, but the times

621
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:02,040
Speaker 1: they were And thank you so much for tuning in,

622
00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:03,600
Speaker 1: fellow ridiculous historians.

623
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:06,319
Speaker 2: Thank you Ben for putting this research together. This is

624
00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:09,880
Speaker 2: something that I was completely unfamiliar with. So I learned

625
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:12,560
Speaker 2: something today, as I think we all strive to do

626
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:13,480
Speaker 2: every day.

627
00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:17,840
Speaker 1: At Speaking of learning, big big thanks to our super

628
00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:22,760
Speaker 1: producer Max Williams for the Futurama and the Assassin's Creed facts.

629
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:27,600
Speaker 1: Big big thanks to aj Bahamas, Jacobs, the Puzzler and

630
00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:34,160
Speaker 1: a tepid nod of the cap to Jonathan Strickland aka

631
00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:34,720
Speaker 1: the Quist.

632
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:38,160
Speaker 2: Fine, how do you do indeed? Yeah? Like, instead of.

633
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:41,040
Speaker 1: Saying hey, we just say his name correct, like.

634
00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:46,480
Speaker 2: Hey, Noel, Jonathan, Jonathan, Hey, we'll see you next time, folks.

635
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:55,759
Speaker 2: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

636
00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:57,960
Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,