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Speaker 1: Cable news is ripping us apart, dividing the nation, making

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Speaker 1: it impossible to function as a society and to know

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Speaker 1: what is true and what is false. The good news

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Speaker 1: is that they're failing and they know it. That is

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Speaker 1: why we're building something new. Be part of creating a new, better, healthier,

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Speaker 1: member today at breakingpoints dot com. Your hard earned money

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Speaker 1: is going to help us build for the midterms and

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Speaker 1: the upcoming presidential election so we can provide unparalleled coverage

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Speaker 1: of what is sure to be one of the most

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Speaker 1: pivotal moments in American history. So what are you waiting for?

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Speaker 1: Go to Breakingpoints dot com to help us out. Very interesting,

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Speaker 1: sort of perplexing moment in the interview that Carolyn Maloney,

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Speaker 1: who's a current Democratic congressman from Manhattan. In the interview

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Speaker 1: she was doing with the New York Times editorial board

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Speaker 1: hoping for an endorsement in a race she's up against.

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Speaker 1: This is crazy New York stuff because of all the redistricting.

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Speaker 1: So she and another Democratic InCom in, Jerry Nadler, and

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Speaker 1: an other candidate as well are all facing off against

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Speaker 1: each other in this primary, So go ahead and put

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Speaker 1: this tear sheet up on the screen because she said

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Speaker 1: something that was strange and maybe revealing, or maybe she's

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Speaker 1: just confused. Hard to say. This is from Business Insider.

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Speaker 1: Democratic Rep. Carolyn Maloney said off the record that Biden

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Speaker 1: is not running for re election in twenty twenty four.

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Speaker 1: Of course, these editorial board interviews are on the record,

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Speaker 1: they are not off the record, so they went ahead

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Speaker 1: and published this. Here's the full exchange, as published by

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Speaker 1: The New York Times. New York Times Eleanor Randolph asked

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Speaker 1: should President Biden run again? Maloney says, off the record,

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Speaker 1: he's not running again, to which another and New York

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Speaker 1: Times board member said not off the record, on the record,

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Speaker 1: and Maloney said on the record, no, he should not

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Speaker 1: run again. This comes after they had done a debate

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Speaker 1: where Nadler had indicated that you know, what was his take.

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Speaker 1: He was like, he basically wouldn't answer It's like I

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Speaker 1: commit to the president or you know, yeah, he'd never

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Speaker 1: basically sort of dodge the question, wouldn't really answer it,

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Speaker 1: which was extraordinary in and of itself. Maloney said there

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Speaker 1: as well, it's my understanding that he's not running, so

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Speaker 1: clearly she really has it in her head from somewhere

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Speaker 1: that Biden is not running again. Now, all of the

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Speaker 1: public signs from Biden and his team are that he is.

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Speaker 1: He has said repeatedly he's running again. You know. The

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Speaker 1: reporting is to probably do his meeting with his family

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Speaker 1: over the holiday and then he'll run again. But and Maloney,

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Speaker 1: she's getting up there in age. I wouldn't say that

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Speaker 1: she's all, you know, totally with it all the time.

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Speaker 1: And so she could just be confused, or she could

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Speaker 1: have some information here that we're not privy to. I

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Speaker 1: don't know, I have no idea. I mean, my bet

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Speaker 1: is probably confused. She herself is like eighty years old,

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Speaker 1: and she's just obviously just conducting herself in a very

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Speaker 1: erratic and strange manner because she keeps doing these interviews

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Speaker 1: where she's this way, will date won't they? And I'm

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Speaker 1: just like, I don't know. But look, she didn't get

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Speaker 1: endorsed by The New York Times. Chuck Schumer came out

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Speaker 1: and endorsed Jerry Nadler. So I think her days in

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Speaker 1: Congress are probably more numbered than President Biden in the politics.

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Speaker 1: Probably who knows. I mean, it's an interesting. So what

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Speaker 1: they did is there used to be a seat that

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Speaker 1: was mostly the Upper east Side and then a seat

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Speaker 1: that was mostly the Upper west Side. Nadler represented the

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Speaker 1: Upper west Side seat, and she represented the Upper east

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Speaker 1: Side seat. They instead drew a line like across the

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Speaker 1: middle of the city, and now the Upper east Side

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Speaker 1: and west Side are in this primary together. And like

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Speaker 1: I said, there's another candidate as well who's using this

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Speaker 1: all as an opening to be like, I'm the one

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Speaker 1: who's really standing with President Biden. Hasn't thrown him under

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Speaker 1: the bus, even though I thought he was supposed to

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Speaker 1: be the progressive I don't know anyway. So that's the

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Speaker 1: contours of this race. I think you're right. Nadler probably

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Speaker 1: has the edge here ultimately because he's gotten the establishment

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Speaker 1: backing and he doesn't do weird, confusing stuff like this,

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Speaker 1: and he got the New York Times endorsement. But again,

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Speaker 1: who knows how this ultimately is all going to go.

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Speaker 1: But maybe she'll turn out. Maybe this is she has

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Speaker 1: some insight, Maybe she's spilling something that other people, you know,

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Speaker 1: are keeping quiet. It's possible, or I think you're probably right.

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Speaker 1: The more likely explanation is she's just kind of confused.

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Speaker 1: She has weird infer because I still am working on

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Speaker 1: the assumption Biden is running again, not because people are

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Speaker 1: that enamored with him, but because they don't know how

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Speaker 1: to get around Kamala Harris being the next in line

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Speaker 1: and know that she would be a disaster. The only

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Speaker 1: reason you wouldn't run again is for health reason. And look,

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Speaker 1: as far as I know, that doesn't exist. I mean

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Speaker 1: it's possible, I'm not. I'm talking about like it have

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Speaker 1: to be really serious. Yeah, I'm going to die of

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Speaker 1: a heart attack if I continue. Outside of that, Given

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Speaker 1: current deterioration, He's still going to run. I just don't

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Speaker 1: see any other way. That's what I'm working with as well.

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Speaker 1: But we'll see see how it goes, all right, guys,

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Speaker 1: more for y'all later. We have been tracking here the

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Speaker 1: pretty extraordinary movement of Starbucks workers across the country who've

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Speaker 1: been unionizing. I'm they have lost very few of these

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Speaker 1: elections in stores. Since the very first union election happened

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Speaker 1: successful union vote happened in Buffalo. Starbucks has made no

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Speaker 1: secret of the fact that they are very upset about

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Speaker 1: the wave of unionization. They've engaged in every union busting

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Speaker 1: tactic you can possibly imagine through, you know, trying to

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Speaker 1: use legal means to delay these votes. They've you know,

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Speaker 1: fired workers who've been involved in union drives. They fired

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Speaker 1: some of their executives who they felt were union busting.

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Speaker 1: Effectively enough, they brought back former CEO and founder Howard Schultz.

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Speaker 1: They've tried to withhold benefits from the workers who are

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Speaker 1: unionizing and try to create this sort of like two

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Speaker 1: tier system where the non union workers, they're saying, are

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Speaker 1: going to get better deals than the union workers, which

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Speaker 1: is illegal, by the way. And now we have a

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Speaker 1: new play in their playbook which sounds echoes some of

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Speaker 1: the stop the steel rhetoric, same as Amazon did that,

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Speaker 1: Ablezon did the same thing. Let's go and put this

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Speaker 1: up on the screen. Starbucks is asking the Federal Labor

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Speaker 1: Board to suspend all mail in ballot union elections nationwide,

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Speaker 1: alleging misconduct in the voting process by the board's personnel.

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Speaker 1: They're saying the government is in on it, and the

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Speaker 1: union organizing it's buristas. So they allege that a whistleblower

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Speaker 1: has come to them and it's called into question the

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Speaker 1: process and said that the board is biased and that

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Speaker 1: basically these elections are rigged and they need to have

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Speaker 1: only in person balloting because the mail in ballots can't

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Speaker 1: be trusted. Sager again. Also, it's very reminiscent of the

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Speaker 1: claims of ballot harvesting and calling into question of the

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Speaker 1: mail in balloting that the president his people in. It's

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Speaker 1: also gonna be funny how Howard Schuls could square this

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Speaker 1: if he ever does talk about stop the steal, given

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Speaker 1: that he probably is greenlighting this. But listen, they all

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Speaker 1: point to the same thing. They're all claiming it's rigged

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Speaker 1: based upon some fake insider. Listen, you've been losing the

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Speaker 1: votes dramatically. That's it has nothing to do with mail

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Speaker 1: in ballots. And yeah, I just think it's hilarious because

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Speaker 1: when you look at their concerns, they have no actual

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Speaker 1: high they have no actual specific allegation. They're like, yeah, oh, Also,

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Speaker 1: of course the government is in on it, because there's

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Speaker 1: nowhere else to explain this, like just give everybody a break.

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Speaker 1: And also, you know, I got to say, I wonder

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Speaker 1: if this is going to have major backlash on their

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Speaker 1: actual workforce in terms of hiring, Like if people who

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Speaker 1: were thinking about going to work they're like, why would

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Speaker 1: I go work for people? We covered that kid weird

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Speaker 1: kidnapping case we got claiming you've been kidnapped. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: that was last week, so hilarious. Look at how they're

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Speaker 1: comporting themselves on a corporate level. It's just completely nuts. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the kidnapping thing. So you had, you know, a union

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Speaker 1: I store I think was in South Carolina, Yes, and

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Speaker 1: the workers collectively approach their manager to ask for I

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Speaker 1: think it was a better pay and maybe some other

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Speaker 1: benefits or something like that, and the manager claimed that

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Speaker 1: they had been assaulted and they had been kidnapped and

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Speaker 1: basically like held hostage, filed a police report. Meanwhile, the

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Speaker 1: workers had recorded the whole incident, proving quite definitively that

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Speaker 1: no such thing you know of the sort, happened at all.

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Speaker 1: But those workers were all suspended based on the false

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Speaker 1: allegations of this manager. So totally insane behavior. And I

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Speaker 1: think you're right that in a lot of instances, this

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Speaker 1: is totally backfired because the workers see through the tactics,

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Speaker 1: they see what they're doing here, and that's why in

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Speaker 1: a lot of instances, more instances than not, it's not

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Speaker 1: like the votes have been close it's been in many stores,

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Speaker 1: it's been unanimous, or you've had you know, like twenty

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Speaker 1: in favor and maybe one or two oppose. So it's

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Speaker 1: not like it's a close margin where a little bit

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Speaker 1: of manipulation could swing the balance one way or the other.

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Speaker 1: So I do think you see in the era of

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Speaker 1: social media and the way that this was a very

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Speaker 1: grassroots movement really, you know, sort of worker led and

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Speaker 1: driven by the baristas themselves, that it's the company faces

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Speaker 1: a harder task to sort of gaslight their workforce and

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Speaker 1: convince them that the union is really bad for them.

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Speaker 1: They're seeing through their tactics, and so I think in

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Speaker 1: a lot of instances it is backfiring. Probably will do

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Speaker 1: so again with these latest allegations. Yep. Absolutely, all right, guys,

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Speaker 1: more for y'all later. There was a really interesting conversation

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Speaker 1: on the Joe Rogan podcast with Rogan and Seth Dylan.

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Speaker 1: Seth Dylan is the CEO of the Babylon b I

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Speaker 1: think he's an evangelical Christian, and they had a real

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Speaker 1: argument around abortion, which I found really I thought it

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Speaker 1: was important that this actually happened on the biggest podcast

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Speaker 1: in the world and just exposes some of the interesting

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Speaker 1: arguments around everything. Let's take a listen. You don't have

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Speaker 1: the right to tell my fourteen year old daughter she

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Speaker 1: has to carry her rapist baby. You understand to look

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Speaker 1: at that woman in the eye, who was the listener?

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Speaker 1: Do you understand that that's a fourteen year old child.

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Speaker 1: If you a fourteen year old child gets raped, you

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Speaker 1: say that they have to carry that baby. I don't

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Speaker 1: think two wrongs make it right. I don't think that.

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Speaker 1: I don't think murder is an answer to I don't

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Speaker 1: think murder fix is a rape. What if we're talking

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Speaker 1: about an abortion when the fet is literally it's like

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Speaker 1: six weeks, four weeks, three days, what if you just

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Speaker 1: turned positive, just now positive for pregnancy. I don't well,

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Speaker 1: I just disagree that what if it hapened? You can

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Speaker 1: like draw a line on when you can't think the

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Speaker 1: very moment, I would lay it out like this. I

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Speaker 1: would say, it is wrong to intentionally kill an innocent

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Speaker 1: human life. Abortion intentionally kills an innocent human life. Therefore

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Speaker 1: abortion is wrong. And I don't think any of the

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Speaker 1: I don't think any of the examples of like, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: how developed is it? You know, can it can it think,

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Speaker 1: is it conscious? Can it dream? Can it feel pain?

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Speaker 1: So for you, it's the moment of concess. I think

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Speaker 1: that if it's a if it's a human life and

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Speaker 1: distinct human life, then I think it's wrong to end

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Speaker 1: its life. And so you think that even once do

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Speaker 1: you think that, like once the conception happens, there's some

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Speaker 1: sort of a miraculous event, like at the very moment,

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Speaker 1: like you could literally get to the point where the

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Speaker 1: sperm cracks the egg, if you could scoop that egg

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Speaker 1: out right there would that be abortion? Well, I mean,

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Speaker 1: at some point you're gonna have to say there was

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Speaker 1: a magic moment that happened because you believe that we

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Speaker 1: eventually become valuable humans. Right, So I was really right.

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Speaker 1: I look, I want to say at the top, like

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Speaker 1: I get it where Seth's coming from. I think it's

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Speaker 1: a very religious position. I think that's fine. You know,

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Speaker 1: people are entitled to believe whatever they want. But Rogan

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Speaker 1: did an excellent job there of actually drilling down into

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Speaker 1: what the application of that means on policy and then

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Speaker 1: how it is then extrapolated onto the general public. Because

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Speaker 1: it's like, well, okay, hold on a second, So you

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Speaker 1: believe this well, well, that means you're telling me what

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Speaker 1: to do in this particular context. Now, I understand that

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Speaker 1: that is the basics of religion and specifically Christianity, but

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Speaker 1: we don't necessarily live in a country where we have to,

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Speaker 1: you know, abide by all of our laws as to

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Speaker 1: what the Bible says. So anyway I thought it was

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Speaker 1: it was exposing the arguments at their core and in

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Speaker 1: very stark fashion, which you never hear about, right, you

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Speaker 1: never really, And so in a way I respect him

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Speaker 1: for sticking to his guns. He's very forceful there, like

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Speaker 1: you are not going to tell my fourteenth old daughter

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Speaker 1: she has to I mean it well, But I respect

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Speaker 1: Seth also for sticking to his guns in that and

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Speaker 1: being like, no, listen, this is what I believe in.

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Speaker 1: You know, this is what I would tell you. And

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Speaker 1: like I said, I get it. I got where they're

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Speaker 1: coming from. I grew up around a lot of these folks,

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Speaker 1: but they really do never grapple with what it means

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Speaker 1: in terms of in terms of actual political application. Yes,

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Speaker 1: and even I mean most self identified Christians do not

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Speaker 1: have this view, do not support this view. I mean,

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Speaker 1: this is a this is a you know, overwhelmingly majority

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Speaker 1: self identified Christian nation like in terms of how people identify,

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Speaker 1: and they do not support this view. It is a

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Speaker 1: very very fringe minority that would go to this extreme

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Speaker 1: of like literally, after you have sex, the moment of conception,

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Speaker 1: it's done. It's a life. I'm going to treat it

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Speaker 1: as equal to you know, a fully developed human being

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Speaker 1: who's out, you know, fourteen years old, living their life.

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Speaker 1: And you saw in some of the things that have

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Speaker 1: already happened, their inability to intellectually grapple with the consequences

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Speaker 1: of what their position is. The most obvious example being

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Speaker 1: the ten year old who was raped and impregnated and

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Speaker 1: went to get an abortion in Ohio and because she

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Speaker 1: was like literally six weeks and three days pregnant, she

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Speaker 1: could not get the abortion in Ohio, had to travel

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Speaker 1: to Indiana in order to get that abortion. And you

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Speaker 1: saw the reaction in real time wasn't a willingness as

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Speaker 1: he did to defend that position. It was this couldn't

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Speaker 1: have happened, Yeah, I mean, they couldn't intellectually deal with

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Speaker 1: the fact that this is the direct consequence of the

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Speaker 1: laws that you are pursuing. There's a couple of more

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Speaker 1: cases in the news this week that are grabbing a

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Speaker 1: lot of attention. One is a woman I believe in

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Speaker 1: Louisiana who has her fetus, does not have a skull.

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Speaker 1: It will not live, but she is being forced if

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Speaker 1: to carry that baby without a skull to term based

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Speaker 1: on the laws in Louisiana. Now she can theoretically travel

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Speaker 1: to another state, but in terms of the laws in

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Speaker 1: her state, and also in terms of what you know,

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Speaker 1: Seth is his name, what Seth would want, He would

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Speaker 1: want this on a national level, so that you would

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Speaker 1: be forced to carry your fetus with no skull to

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Speaker 1: term and all of the horrific trauma and just I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's just a horrible thing to imagine. In Florida, you

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Speaker 1: had a girl who's sixteen, who is pregnant and doesn't

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Speaker 1: have parents who can sign and consent on her behalf,

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Speaker 1: so she had to She went to court to seek

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Speaker 1: to be able to decide for herself to have an abortion,

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Speaker 1: and the judge denied it because they said she wasn't

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Speaker 1: mature enough. That was the reason. So she's not mature

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Speaker 1: enough to decide for herself whether to have the abortion,

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Speaker 1: But she is mature enough to be forced into parenthood.

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Speaker 1: So these are things that again, look, you know, Seth

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Speaker 1: has his position, it's you know, he's willing to stick

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Speaker 1: to it. I you know, I understand that, I understand

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Speaker 1: that these are very difficult positions, but this is wildly

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Speaker 1: out of step with where even the majority of Christians,

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Speaker 1: and certainly with where the majority of most Americans are,

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Speaker 1: who do see nuance and who see the competing claims,

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Speaker 1: who are able to weigh you know, the difference between

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Speaker 1: like you know, the moment of conception and a sperm

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Speaker 1: and an egg and further down in the pregnancy, where

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Speaker 1: you know, yes, there's feeling. Yes, this is much closer

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Speaker 1: to being a fully formed human being. So anyway, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I think the worry of the latter position is

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Speaker 1: that it's actually one that transcends religion, and it's one

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Speaker 1: that I really get to how like people and I

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Speaker 1: know this sounds tripe, but it's like how people feel. Well, look,

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Speaker 1: we're living in a democracy, and popular democracy. It's like

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Speaker 1: that's kind of how things should be reflected. So anyway,

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Speaker 1: I mean, this has always been my pushback against these folks,

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Speaker 1: and I actually think Rogan did a good job of

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Speaker 1: speaking it in the most stark terms. Yes, because that

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Speaker 1: is really where that's where the whole debate comes down to,

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Speaker 1: really drilling down to well really literally think when the

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Speaker 1: sperm and the egg come together, that that's a human life,

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Speaker 1: the same anat specific the way that he has you know,

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Speaker 1: in these you know, so called edge cases. Look at

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Speaker 1: it's a country of three hundred and thirty million. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: sometimes you're going to have free cases where a baby

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Speaker 1: gets you know, developed or whatever without a skull. It's like,

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Speaker 1: what you want that to be delivered? You're out of

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Speaker 1: your mind. Well, and it's also become very clear that

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Speaker 1: I mean, this has been a real pivot point in

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Speaker 1: terms of politics, more so than I expected. The number

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Speaker 1: of women who have registered postobs, not just in Kansas,

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Speaker 1: but in like state after state, way more women registering,

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Speaker 1: way more Democratic women registering. We're seeing these special elections.

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Speaker 1: The way things are going, We've seen the way the

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Speaker 1: generic ballot has moved. Well, it'd be enough. I think

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Speaker 1: the you know, landscape still very much favors Republicans. But

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Speaker 1: because this issue is so visceral, and you can see

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Speaker 1: that from Rogan's reaction to it, Because it is such

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Speaker 1: a visceral issue. It really has completely turned the political

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Speaker 1: landscape on its head. Definitely. So there is a new

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Speaker 1: book out by an NBC News reporter, Ali Vitali full disclosure,

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Speaker 1: knew her very well at MSNBC, friends, all that good stuff.

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Speaker 1: But it's about she actually she was an embed on

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Speaker 1: the Trump campaign in twenty sixteen, and then she was

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Speaker 1: an embed on the Elizabeth Warren campaign in and so

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Speaker 1: there's an excerpt of this book out in Politico, and

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Speaker 1: one of the things that people noted was she got

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Speaker 1: comment from Hillary Clinton about that whole moment when Elizabeth

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Speaker 1: Warren's team accused Bernie Sanders of being a secret sexist.

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Speaker 1: You guys probably remember this, but just as a reminder

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Speaker 1: of the context at the time, you're kind of coming

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Speaker 1: down to it in terms of people are about to

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Speaker 1: vote and Elizabeth Warren is getting like a little bit desperate. Frankly,

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Speaker 1: her polls are sliding, things are kind of the wheels

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Speaker 1: are coming off of her campaign a bit, and it's

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Speaker 1: it's already looking like it's not going off for her.

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Speaker 1: And then her team, it had to be her team

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Speaker 1: leaked to CNN that in a private conversation when Warren

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Speaker 1: told Bernie that she was going to run. He said

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Speaker 1: that a woman could not win. Now, the only people

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Speaker 1: in the room was Bernie and Warren and maybe Warren's husband,

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Speaker 1: so there's no way Bernie leaked this, So it definitely

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Speaker 1: came from, you know, Arren or her husband or somebody

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Speaker 1: that they had talked to and was in their camp.

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Speaker 1: Of course, Bernie says, this is ridiculous. I never said

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Speaker 1: anything like that. I think what it appears may have

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Speaker 1: happened is they were talking about the race, and he

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Speaker 1: probably said, like, you know, he's Trump will weaponize anything

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Speaker 1: against people like their you know, gender races. True. So anyway,

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Speaker 1: this became this whole thing. And then I forgot Sager

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Speaker 1: that when Warren got asked about this on the debate stage.

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Speaker 1: So first it was what's her name, Abby Phillips at CNN.

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Speaker 1: She asked Bernie like, basically, why did you say this?

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Speaker 1: And he says, well, I didn't say that, you know,

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Speaker 1: that's that's not what happened in the conversation at all.

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Speaker 1: And then she turns to Elizabeth Warren and says, how

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Speaker 1: did you feel when when Bernie said to you that

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Speaker 1: a woman can't win? So totally citing. Remember that with

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Speaker 1: Warren anyway, that was the whole thing that happened. So

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Speaker 1: now this book is coming out about how hard it

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Speaker 1: is for women to run in politics, and she asked

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Speaker 1: Hillary Clinton for comment about that moment, and she says

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Speaker 1: that she believed Warren, and hold on, I lost the quote.

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Speaker 1: Where did it go? I know the kinds of things

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Speaker 1: he says. Yes, I believed her because I know Sanders

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Speaker 1: and I know the kind of things that he says

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Speaker 1: about women and two women, so I thought that she

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Speaker 1: was telling an accurate version of the conversation that they

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Speaker 1: had had. So Hillary Clinton still extremely bitter. Call. She

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Speaker 1: is a bitter woman, all right, that's what she And

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Speaker 1: you know, look, I don't even think her female gender

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Speaker 1: has anything to do with it. She just says a

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Speaker 1: massive ego. She can't even first of all, she won

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Speaker 1: the Democratic primary. Like what are you pissed off about

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Speaker 1: the guy campaign for you and your ful Yes, and

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Speaker 1: you're the one. That's the thing that drives me crazy.

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Speaker 1: Like if you want to blame any one specific person

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Speaker 1: for the ascent of Donald Trump, she is clearly the

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Speaker 1: person who is most to blame, Like for the reason

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Speaker 1: that we had this dude for four years, and yet

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Speaker 1: somehow nobody ever seems And the other thing that drives

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Speaker 1: me crazy about this is there's a real there's a real,

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Speaker 1: to use the term of the current term of art,

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Speaker 1: there's a real invisibilizing of the women that supported Bernie Sanders.

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Speaker 1: And clearly this like attack from the Warren camp, desperate

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Speaker 1: attack from the Warren Camp on Bernie did not land

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Speaker 1: with women because she ended up, you know, not even

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Speaker 1: able to win her home state in the end. So anyway,

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Speaker 1: it's just extraordinary that Hillary still cannot evaluate any of

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Speaker 1: her own failings flaws, how it ended up that she,

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Speaker 1: you know, first narrowly wins the primary with some helping

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Speaker 1: hand from the DNC, to say the least, and then

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Speaker 1: ends up losing Trump. And she still is blaming everyone

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Speaker 1: else but herself. And we have a second corollary to this,

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Speaker 1: which I love. You don't have to speak to it.

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Speaker 1: I will. Let's pull this up there. According to this book,

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Speaker 1: Elizabeth Warren said, quote everyone comes up to me and says,

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Speaker 1: I would vote for you if you had a penis.

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Speaker 1: I'm just going to say it. I don't think a

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Speaker 1: single person ever came up to her and said that

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Speaker 1: in any sense of the word. First of all, you're

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Speaker 1: talking there about Democratic primary voters. Second of all, nobody

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Speaker 1: speaks that way at all. So I'm just going to

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Speaker 1: say I think that is total and complete bullshit. And

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Speaker 1: one of the things that bothers me about this. Look,

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Speaker 1: I know you're friends with Ali, and by the way,

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Speaker 1: Ali's always been very nice to me. I met her

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Speaker 1: also when she was a White House correspondent. All that is,

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Speaker 1: you cannot quote Elizabeth Warren saying that somebody said that

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Speaker 1: to you without corroboration, what kind of a direct bye.

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Speaker 1: By direct quoting the whole like I would vote for you,

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Speaker 1: you're basically saying that that quote happened. You can't say that.

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Speaker 1: You can't say that this happened unless you go and

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Speaker 1: find the voter and actually speak to them before you

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Speaker 1: make that the title of a highly inflammatory article and

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Speaker 1: accusation against a lot of people who voted in the

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Speaker 1: state of New Hampshire. Maybe you lost because you suck,

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Speaker 1: because you also definitely had an advantage given that you

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Speaker 1: were the senator from Massachusetts, which also just like from

429
00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:09,760
Speaker 1: is neighboring to this region. So like, don't act like

430
00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:12,919
Speaker 1: people to theyre didn't know who you were, right, yeah,

431
00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:17,200
Speaker 1: I mean the media propped up Elizabeth Warren. They loved her,

432
00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:21,520
Speaker 1: the fawning articles about her selfie lines and whatever. And

433
00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:24,119
Speaker 1: the problem for Elizabeth Warren, look, sexism is really I

434
00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:26,480
Speaker 1: don't doubt that there were like challenges for the women

435
00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:29,199
Speaker 1: candidates that were, you know, different for the guys. I

436
00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:31,960
Speaker 1: don't doubt that. I do doubt that anyone said this

437
00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:36,119
Speaker 1: directly because okay, yeah, I don't think anyone would like

438
00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:39,399
Speaker 1: admit that that blatantly and a Democratic primary. I just

439
00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:43,040
Speaker 1: don't believe. And this isn't just she doesn't say that

440
00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:45,240
Speaker 1: like one person. You might believe that if it was

441
00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:48,160
Speaker 1: like one weirdo like I did when I ran for Congress.

442
00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:51,720
Speaker 1: I had someone literally say to me, I don't think

443
00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:54,200
Speaker 1: you should be running for anything except after your kids.

444
00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:57,360
Speaker 1: So there are some weird nose out there who will

445
00:22:57,359 --> 00:23:00,119
Speaker 1: say like just the most obnoxious, blatantly sexist stuff that

446
00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:02,480
Speaker 1: you can possibly imagine. So if you had said one

447
00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:07,159
Speaker 1: person said this to you, maybe quote everyone comes up

448
00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:12,320
Speaker 1: to me and says, no, that's definitely, I just genuinely

449
00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:15,520
Speaker 1: just don't believe that whatsoever. And you already lied about

450
00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:17,119
Speaker 1: what Bernie said to you in that meeting, So I

451
00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:20,440
Speaker 1: have no reason to trust you whatsoever. But the other

452
00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:25,560
Speaker 1: thing that bothers me here is that when you put

453
00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:29,119
Speaker 1: out this idea repeatedly, over and over again that women

454
00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:32,800
Speaker 1: can't win, you know, everyone I would vote for if

455
00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:34,560
Speaker 1: you had a penis. I mean, what is the message

456
00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:36,679
Speaker 1: that that is sending to young women that it's not

457
00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:38,840
Speaker 1: worth trying, that there's too much sexism, that you can't

458
00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:41,520
Speaker 1: overcome it. Even someone who's as perfect and wonderful as

459
00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:45,000
Speaker 1: Elizabeth Warren couldn't overcome it. So why bother? So you

460
00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:48,320
Speaker 1: are sort of undermining the very thing that you're you know,

461
00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:52,080
Speaker 1: wanting to accomplish here, which is to encourage women to

462
00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:56,919
Speaker 1: run for office and have great success there. So anyway, Yeah,

463
00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:00,119
Speaker 1: it's just it's really really something. It did bring me

464
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:04,200
Speaker 1: back to the snake emoji era, and I have no regret. Yeah,

465
00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:06,840
Speaker 1: I stand by so nice. I stand by every single

466
00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:11,480
Speaker 1: time I called her a liar? Okay, all right, wherevery ell? Later?

467
00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:14,879
Speaker 1: Time now for our weekly partnership segment with our friends

468
00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:17,199
Speaker 1: over at the Lever and joining us this week is

469
00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:19,440
Speaker 1: the man himself, David Sarata. Great to see you, David.

470
00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:22,120
Speaker 1: Good to see you too. So you have a look

471
00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:25,520
Speaker 1: this week at the so called Inflation Reduction Act, which

472
00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:28,040
Speaker 1: was signed into law by Joe Biden this week, and

473
00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:30,800
Speaker 1: let's goad and put your tear sheet up on the screen. Here.

474
00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:34,120
Speaker 1: You're focused in particular on some of the major blatant

475
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:36,959
Speaker 1: Wall Street giveaways that ended up in the final package.

476
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:38,879
Speaker 1: You say, the Wall Street vote that screamed the quiet

477
00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:41,960
Speaker 1: part out loud. Senators gave their Wall Street donors another

478
00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:46,760
Speaker 1: gift after blocking the expanded child tax credit. Before we

479
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:50,760
Speaker 1: dig into the specifics of Miss Cinema and her allies here, though,

480
00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:52,520
Speaker 1: I would love for you, David, because we haven't heard

481
00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:54,280
Speaker 1: your of you on the show yet, just to give

482
00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:57,840
Speaker 1: your overall view of this package, and you know the

483
00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:01,720
Speaker 1: end result and whether it was worth voting for in

484
00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:05,320
Speaker 1: your estimation, I think it's hard to know whether this

485
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:08,879
Speaker 1: bill will do more good than harm. I think if

486
00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:13,359
Speaker 1: you force me to answer whether it does, I guess

487
00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:16,919
Speaker 1: there's a decent chance that this bill marginally improves the

488
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:21,359
Speaker 1: climate situation, marginally reduces emissions. It was sold as a

489
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:26,440
Speaker 1: bill to reduce forty percent of emissions. That's not actually

490
00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:29,560
Speaker 1: what it does. It adds at best another ten percent

491
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:32,879
Speaker 1: of emissions reductions. The current policy gets about thirty percent

492
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:36,280
Speaker 1: of emissions reductions according to the same estimates. So a

493
00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:40,520
Speaker 1: marginal reduction in emissions if everything goes right, and that's

494
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:44,879
Speaker 1: the big if. When making a climate bill, attaching to

495
00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:48,480
Speaker 1: a climate bill a vast expansion of fossil fuel development,

496
00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:52,359
Speaker 1: you are inherently creating a gamble on the climate. You

497
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:56,520
Speaker 1: are putting good investments into renewable energy, but then tying

498
00:25:56,560 --> 00:26:00,240
Speaker 1: those investments effectively to a potential expansion of oil and

499
00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:04,040
Speaker 1: gas leasing in the future. And so you set that's

500
00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:07,160
Speaker 1: a huge roll of the dice. Yes, maybe the renewable

501
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:12,680
Speaker 1: energy stuff takes and outpaces the fossil fuel development. That's

502
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:15,919
Speaker 1: a win for the climate. An alternate scenario is the

503
00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:19,119
Speaker 1: renewable energy stuff doesn't take. The oil and gas industry

504
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:24,399
Speaker 1: exploits the new leases, the expansion of leases in this bill,

505
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:27,639
Speaker 1: and that's not a win for the climate. So I

506
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:30,320
Speaker 1: think what happened here was the Democratic Party decided to

507
00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:33,640
Speaker 1: cut a big, giant check to every part of the

508
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:37,119
Speaker 1: energy economy because they didn't want to make a choice,

509
00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:40,719
Speaker 1: They didn't want to create an enemy out of the

510
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:43,960
Speaker 1: oil industry. This is why the oil industry celebrated the

511
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:47,240
Speaker 1: passage of the bill, and that was their political formula.

512
00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:50,240
Speaker 1: But science is telling us we need to stop all

513
00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:53,199
Speaker 1: fossil fuel, all new fossil fuel development if we have

514
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:55,720
Speaker 1: a chance to really deal with the climate stuff, the

515
00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:59,760
Speaker 1: climate crisis. So to my mind, again a big gamble.

516
00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:02,760
Speaker 1: Now on the other side of this, the sort of

517
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:05,200
Speaker 1: social policy side of this, I think there was great

518
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:09,120
Speaker 1: investments in IRS enforcement that were long overdue. I think

519
00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:13,760
Speaker 1: they unfortunately, very seriously watered down the Medicare prescription drug

520
00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:17,640
Speaker 1: pricing stuff. There's still a couple of good things in there,

521
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:20,840
Speaker 1: but they seriously watered it down. And then they included

522
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:24,040
Speaker 1: some real tax giveaways to Wall Street in this bill. Well,

523
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:27,199
Speaker 1: and that's a great transition because you can see the

524
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:32,680
Speaker 1: fingerprints of corporate America on every single piece of this legislation.

525
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:34,399
Speaker 1: I agree with you on balance. I think it was

526
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:37,080
Speaker 1: better than doing nothing. I think it's a marginal benefit,

527
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:39,040
Speaker 1: and so you know, I don't want to I don't

528
00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:41,919
Speaker 1: want to say otherwise, but you see it certainly in

529
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:43,800
Speaker 1: the approach to climate. You see it in the approach

530
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:45,919
Speaker 1: to healthcare, which ends up getting watered down, and then

531
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:48,520
Speaker 1: you see it in these tax provisions. So let's talk

532
00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:51,080
Speaker 1: about that piece, because this was extremely blatant and you

533
00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 1: picked up on a real asymmetry here. So when Senator

534
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:58,399
Speaker 1: Sanders was saying, hey, guys, all fifty of you claimed

535
00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:01,080
Speaker 1: to be in support of a child tax credit, why

536
00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:03,240
Speaker 1: don't we add that to the bill, it was he

537
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:04,879
Speaker 1: was voted down. I think this is one of the

538
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:07,280
Speaker 1: ones where he was voted down ninety nine to one

539
00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:10,600
Speaker 1: on something that they allegedly all care about. And the

540
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:14,600
Speaker 1: argument from Senator shared brown'sposly a progressive in others, was Bernie,

541
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:17,320
Speaker 1: we have to stay unified. This will for some reason

542
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:19,639
Speaker 1: tank the bill, so we can't vote with you on

543
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 1: these things. However, when it came to Kirson Cinema and

544
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:28,240
Speaker 1: her being like, no, we can't close the carried interest loophole,

545
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:31,920
Speaker 1: and actually I want these other giveaways for Wall Street

546
00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:34,080
Speaker 1: put into the bill, then they were willing to get

547
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:36,680
Speaker 1: on board and go along with that breakdown. How all

548
00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:39,320
Speaker 1: of that went down for us, David sure, So the

549
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:44,120
Speaker 1: Democratic leadership, as you said, enforced party unity against Bernie

550
00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:47,800
Speaker 1: Sanders series of amendments that were designed to add back

551
00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 1: into the bill Democratic Party priorities. One of the big

552
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:55,480
Speaker 1: ones was the expanded child tax credit. He put a bill,

553
00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:59,200
Speaker 1: an amendment on the floor. The Democratic leadership, the Democratic

554
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:03,760
Speaker 1: senators joined with the Republicans to vote that down. And

555
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:05,920
Speaker 1: as you said, the Democratic leadership said, we have to

556
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:11,400
Speaker 1: preserve the integrity of this fragile deal. This legislation represents

557
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:14,240
Speaker 1: a very fragile deal. And even though we may supposedly

558
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:16,680
Speaker 1: want to do this good thing expand the child tax

559
00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:19,240
Speaker 1: at reinstate the expand of child tax credit, we can't

560
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:21,440
Speaker 1: do that because we have to preserve this fragile balance.

561
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:24,840
Speaker 1: They voted that down. And then a few hours later

562
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:31,440
Speaker 1: they joined with Cinema and Republicans to add into the bill.

563
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:33,600
Speaker 1: And I should mention it wasn't all the Democrats, it

564
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 1: was seven Democrats, so party unity not enforced. Seven Democrats

565
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:40,880
Speaker 1: joined with the Republicans to add into the bill a

566
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:44,720
Speaker 1: thirty five billion dollar tax break for the private equity industry.

567
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:48,320
Speaker 1: It basically said that the private equity industry, in facing

568
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:52,320
Speaker 1: the new corporate minimum tax, doesn't have to effectively tally

569
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:58,880
Speaker 1: the revenues of its portfolio companies in deciding or in

570
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:02,760
Speaker 1: terms of whether it qualifies and faces that tax, so

571
00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:06,480
Speaker 1: basically it shields it creates a special carve out for

572
00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:09,959
Speaker 1: the private equity industry that has dumped a quarter of

573
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 1: a billion dollars of campaign contributions into the federal political

574
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:17,400
Speaker 1: process in the last two election cycles. So a blatant

575
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 1: and naked giveaway to the donor class. Hours after the

576
00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:26,960
Speaker 1: same Senate voted down an expansion of the wildly popular

577
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:31,920
Speaker 1: child tax credit and Kierson Cinema obviously led the charge

578
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:33,840
Speaker 1: on this. I mean, how much money has she personally

579
00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 1: gotten from private equity? I know, oftentimes media likes to

580
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:38,920
Speaker 1: paint her and Joe Manchin is like acting in their

581
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:41,160
Speaker 1: state's best interest and that's what they really care about.

582
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:45,000
Speaker 1: Arizona not known as like a hotbed of private equity

583
00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:50,320
Speaker 1: activity here, So she's just rarely do you see such

584
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:53,320
Speaker 1: a blatant quid pro quo, even though they're there all

585
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 1: the time, as was on evidence here. Larry Summers even

586
00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:01,760
Speaker 1: was like, wow, this is gross even by my standards. Yes,

587
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:05,200
Speaker 1: I mean, look Cinema. The Associated Press reported about a

588
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:08,560
Speaker 1: million dollars of campaign contributions from the private equity industry

589
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:10,720
Speaker 1: flowed into her campaign in the lead up to this,

590
00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:13,600
Speaker 1: into the lead up of this, of the negotiations over

591
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:17,840
Speaker 1: this bill, Cinema obviously working for her private equity donors.

592
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:20,280
Speaker 1: There's just really no pretense here. By the way, there's

593
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:23,280
Speaker 1: no pretense with Joe Manchin either, the top recipient of

594
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:27,640
Speaker 1: oil and gas money, adding in the oil and gas

595
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:30,560
Speaker 1: giveaways in this bill. I mean, one thing we can

596
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:32,760
Speaker 1: say is we are living in an era where the

597
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 1: corrupt folks in Washington have stopped really trying to pretend

598
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:40,040
Speaker 1: like they're not corrupt, right, I mean, it's just out

599
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:43,000
Speaker 1: in the open, and in some ways that makes it

600
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:45,800
Speaker 1: easier to report on, it's easier to see. But I

601
00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 1: think what it's kind of an admission of is that

602
00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:52,440
Speaker 1: corruption is now so normalized, so accepted, so part of

603
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:55,960
Speaker 1: the process out in the open, that these legislators don't

604
00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:59,840
Speaker 1: even feel a deterrent in terms of the optics of it.

605
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:03,040
Speaker 1: Are just doing the bidding of their donors. There's no

606
00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:05,920
Speaker 1: other way to put it. It's it's literally shameless, like

607
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:10,200
Speaker 1: they literally can't be show they do not care the

608
00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:13,800
Speaker 1: thing that you know to me, I mean, listen, I

609
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:16,680
Speaker 1: guess encouraged that something got through, right, And I think

610
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:19,520
Speaker 1: all the historiotics a historic and it's a landmark and

611
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:23,160
Speaker 1: whatever is obviously dramatically overstated, but it was encouraging that

612
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:27,120
Speaker 1: something happened. However, on the other hand, I look at

613
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:29,520
Speaker 1: it and because it is so clear how it was

614
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:32,760
Speaker 1: curtailed at every turn and water down at every turn

615
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:38,360
Speaker 1: by corporate America, it also really demonstrates how constrained our

616
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:43,360
Speaker 1: political system is as long as big money is so dominant. Like,

617
00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:46,959
Speaker 1: you may want Medicare to negotiate on prescription drug prices,

618
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:48,960
Speaker 1: but they're like, yeah, well, maybe we'll give you a few,

619
00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:51,520
Speaker 1: you know, a few drugs. Maybe a few years down

620
00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:54,160
Speaker 1: the road. You may want Medicare for all, but they're like,

621
00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:56,720
Speaker 1: how about we just keep some little bit of extra

622
00:32:56,760 --> 00:33:00,800
Speaker 1: Affordable Care Act subsidies in here. It's all what corporate

623
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:03,840
Speaker 1: America is willing to tolerate to, you know, all the

624
00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:05,560
Speaker 1: way to the point of the oil and gas companies

625
00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:07,280
Speaker 1: were actually they were cool with this bill. They were

626
00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 1: celebrating it. So what does it say at a larger

627
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:14,959
Speaker 1: scale about what is possible in our politics with our

628
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:18,280
Speaker 1: current political system. You are touching on such an important

629
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:20,960
Speaker 1: point here, which is that I think this bill is

630
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:25,720
Speaker 1: another example of the political paradigm of the best that

631
00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:29,400
Speaker 1: you can hope for in our current politics are policies

632
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:33,360
Speaker 1: that do not make a choice. Now, the good side

633
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:35,840
Speaker 1: of that, the best side of that is you can

634
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:41,440
Speaker 1: get good things funded, right, You can get investments, for instance,

635
00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:45,960
Speaker 1: in renewable energy, things that do not have a natural opposition.

636
00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:48,960
Speaker 1: You can get those things funded. But the cost of

637
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 1: getting those things funded is to give giveaways to the

638
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:58,880
Speaker 1: industries creating the problem. So this bill did not have

639
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:06,400
Speaker 1: an organized opposition because the oil industry got huge gifts

640
00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:09,640
Speaker 1: in this bill. Now you can say that that's a

641
00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:13,200
Speaker 1: good short term politics. But I would argue if the

642
00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:16,680
Speaker 1: oil and gas companies are happy about a bill, then

643
00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:19,239
Speaker 1: it is not a bill that is seriously taking on

644
00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:22,959
Speaker 1: the climate crisis. I would argue to you that if

645
00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:27,320
Speaker 1: the health insurance companies are happy about a healthcare bill,

646
00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:31,560
Speaker 1: then you are not fundamentally taking on the problem in

647
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:35,759
Speaker 1: the healthcare economy. And on and on the list goes.

648
00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:37,560
Speaker 1: So I guess the point is is that we are

649
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:41,719
Speaker 1: in a situation where neither party is willing to make

650
00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:46,880
Speaker 1: any kind of choice that asks the powerful economic actors

651
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:51,920
Speaker 1: creating problems to sacrifice anything at all, And you cannot

652
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:57,480
Speaker 1: fundamentally and systemically solve those problems unless you challenge the

653
00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:01,279
Speaker 1: interests creating those problems. I think that is very well

654
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:03,800
Speaker 1: said and very important point for people to reflect on

655
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:05,719
Speaker 1: as this week comes to a close. David Sorto, great

656
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:07,719
Speaker 1: to see you, Thank you so much, Thank you, thanks

657
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:12,960
Speaker 1: for having me. Hey everyone, this is another episode of

658
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:16,280
Speaker 1: Breaking Points Intercept edition. I'm Ken Klippenstein and I'm joined

659
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:19,959
Speaker 1: today by award winning senior editor of Newsweek, William Arkin.

660
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:23,399
Speaker 1: The reason I'm having him on today is to get

661
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:27,200
Speaker 1: his perspective on the raid of mar A Lago by

662
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:30,040
Speaker 1: the FBI. And I think that what William brings to

663
00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:33,759
Speaker 1: the table is a perspective that isn't attached to the

664
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:35,719
Speaker 1: White House, which if you look at a lot of

665
00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:38,120
Speaker 1: the I think mainstream reporting, so much of it is

666
00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:41,920
Speaker 1: hobbled by a reliance on political appointees by the White House,

667
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:45,120
Speaker 1: by Congress. And in William's case, he has a really

668
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:48,360
Speaker 1: amazing understanding of the national security apparatus and the people

669
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:50,960
Speaker 1: that work in it on a rank and file level.

670
00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:56,839
Speaker 1: As one example, he reported last week on citing two

671
00:35:56,960 --> 00:35:59,960
Speaker 1: senior FBI sources, the fact that the rate of marl

672
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:05,239
Speaker 1: Lago had begun with information given to the FBI by

673
00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:08,680
Speaker 1: a confidential human source. William, can you talk a little

674
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:10,680
Speaker 1: bit about the significance of that and the difference between

675
00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:14,560
Speaker 1: a confidential human source and a informant, because I saw

676
00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:16,440
Speaker 1: a lot of people describing as informant, but that's not

677
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:20,080
Speaker 1: really accurate. What are the differences? Well, first of all, Ken,

678
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:21,919
Speaker 1: if you don't call me Bill, I'm going to wring

679
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:30,200
Speaker 1: your neck. You know. I reluctantly got into the Mara

680
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:35,400
Speaker 1: a Lago reporting because I was somewhat frustrated with the

681
00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:39,440
Speaker 1: way in which it was being portrayed in the media,

682
00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:46,120
Speaker 1: and also because of what appeared to me to be

683
00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:50,920
Speaker 1: giant misunderstanding on the part of most people who were

684
00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:56,799
Speaker 1: reporting on this about what are secret documents? What were

685
00:36:56,880 --> 00:37:03,200
Speaker 1: these particular documents authorities? Do there exist for Donald Trump

686
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:07,440
Speaker 1: to possess them, declassify them, eat them, put them in

687
00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:14,719
Speaker 1: the toilet? And so I wanted to dip into the subject,

688
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:17,000
Speaker 1: even though I've been covering the Ukraine War for the

689
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:24,399
Speaker 1: last six months, and I quickly found out that if

690
00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:30,719
Speaker 1: you talk to people on the inside, they were extremely

691
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:34,600
Speaker 1: nervous about what was going on. I didn't think that

692
00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:39,160
Speaker 1: this was a slam dunk by any means, and that

693
00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:43,440
Speaker 1: in fact it had been it was another political misstep

694
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:46,080
Speaker 1: on the part of the FBI and the Justice Department.

695
00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:48,960
Speaker 1: Can you speak to the ambivalence a little bit, because

696
00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:52,319
Speaker 1: from the perspective of, you know, the official statements from

697
00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:55,799
Speaker 1: the Attorney General and the Justice Department, you would get

698
00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:57,480
Speaker 1: the impression that, you know, everything's by the book and

699
00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:00,920
Speaker 1: they don't have any concerns. But you're describing some you know,

700
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:05,319
Speaker 1: anxiety among the ranks about how this could turn out.

701
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:07,239
Speaker 1: What can you speak to that a little bit? Well,

702
00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:10,640
Speaker 1: first of all, people need to understand that the paperwork

703
00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:15,560
Speaker 1: can be immaculate and the decision making process can be perfect,

704
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:19,680
Speaker 1: then they can still be naive about the political consequences

705
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:25,480
Speaker 1: of what they've done, and also wrong, wrong, and even

706
00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:28,640
Speaker 1: undertaking the search warrant at Mar A Lago in the

707
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:33,200
Speaker 1: first place, because had they really exhausted every possibility of

708
00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:38,200
Speaker 1: getting the documents from Donald Trump, and if they knew

709
00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:41,680
Speaker 1: from a confidential human source, from a person inside Trump's

710
00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:48,360
Speaker 1: camp that there were documents that that Trump was continuing

711
00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:53,120
Speaker 1: to squirrel away despite the fact that he had been

712
00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:58,080
Speaker 1: in negotiations for over a year about returning secret documents

713
00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:03,000
Speaker 1: to the Archives. Even if all of those things were true,

714
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:10,440
Speaker 1: it still boils down to the Justice Department doing everything

715
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:15,799
Speaker 1: it can do to not undertake this unprecedented raid on

716
00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:19,840
Speaker 1: his holm. I mean, it's never been done in American history.

717
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:22,680
Speaker 1: We need to remind ourselves of that. So I don't

718
00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:26,319
Speaker 1: care how beautiful the paperwork was. I don't care that

719
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:30,040
Speaker 1: Merrik Garland to prove the raid. I don't care that

720
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:33,319
Speaker 1: they think that everything was done by the book. They

721
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:36,719
Speaker 1: are still putting their thumb on the scale of the

722
00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:40,920
Speaker 1: presidential elections, both in twenty twenty four and then the

723
00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:45,080
Speaker 1: midterm elections in this November. They are doing so, and

724
00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:49,240
Speaker 1: by virtue of that, they have got to find even

725
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:53,800
Speaker 1: a less confrontational way in which they are going to

726
00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:57,200
Speaker 1: try to retrieve these documents. So what would you say

727
00:39:57,480 --> 00:39:59,960
Speaker 1: to people who, you know, look at this and see

728
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:02,640
Speaker 1: that the National Archives and Records admisteries had requested these

729
00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:05,839
Speaker 1: highly classified documents that, for whatever reason, over the course

730
00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:09,160
Speaker 1: of months of woul appear to be negotiations with them

731
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:12,520
Speaker 1: in the Justice Department, the president never produced them. I mean,

732
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:14,920
Speaker 1: did the FBI have any choice at this point? You know,

733
00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:17,160
Speaker 1: when Trump doesn't produce these things. Were they sort of

734
00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:19,440
Speaker 1: force in a situation where it's like, well, we've got

735
00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:21,439
Speaker 1: to do something about this. I mean, he's not giving

736
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:23,120
Speaker 1: it to us. We have to execute the raid. What

737
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:26,080
Speaker 1: do you think, how could it have turned out differently? Well,

738
00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:29,239
Speaker 1: I'll correct one part of your question, Ken, which is

739
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:32,320
Speaker 1: that we don't The National Archives didn't ask for highly

740
00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:39,040
Speaker 1: classified documents. They asked for everything, any papers that Donald

741
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:44,200
Speaker 1: Trump possesses that are considered presidential records under the Presidential

742
00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:48,600
Speaker 1: Records Act and are not his personal records. So the

743
00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:52,240
Speaker 1: National Archive is not engaged in a process of saying

744
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:57,839
Speaker 1: this document or that document or this classification is what

745
00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:02,160
Speaker 1: we want. They want handwritten notes that are completely and

746
00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:08,160
Speaker 1: utterly unclassified as long as they are presidential records. That's

747
00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:13,520
Speaker 1: the only task of the National Archives. Now the FBI,

748
00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:18,719
Speaker 1: which has its own investigations against Donald Trump. They are

749
00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:24,080
Speaker 1: interested in protecting the national security and in seeing whether

750
00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:27,520
Speaker 1: there is law breaking, not just in regards to the

751
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:33,760
Speaker 1: Presidential Records Act, but in regards to overall national security law.

752
00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:37,960
Speaker 1: And so if people think that this was just the

753
00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:43,120
Speaker 1: National Archives, they are wrong. This is the National Archives

754
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:53,400
Speaker 1: that provoked the question of whether Donald Trump illegally possessed documents,

755
00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:59,080
Speaker 1: but it turned into an FBI investigation which then went

756
00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:03,320
Speaker 1: beyond them of the National Archives and started to get

757
00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:09,520
Speaker 1: into the question of classification. So interested that now you know,

758
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:11,680
Speaker 1: this is why I wanted to have you speak to this,

759
00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:14,120
Speaker 1: because there's so much complex national security law and when

760
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:17,279
Speaker 1: I look at the you know, mainstream reporting on this,

761
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:20,000
Speaker 1: they're not doing a great job of explaining to the public.

762
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:22,319
Speaker 1: I'll give you an example. You know, when it was

763
00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:26,719
Speaker 1: found from the chart from the charges that one of

764
00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:29,719
Speaker 1: the laws that might have been broken was the Espionage Act.

765
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:33,040
Speaker 1: I saw so many people, including legal analysts from mainstream outlets,

766
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 1: saying Trump guilty of espionage. Now you know what he's

767
00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:37,839
Speaker 1: being accused of. It is very serious, there's no doubt

768
00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:40,040
Speaker 1: about that. But can you talk a little bit about

769
00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:44,040
Speaker 1: why Espionage Act doesn't necessarily mean, for example, you can

770
00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:45,839
Speaker 1: you know, you can have broken the Espionage Act without

771
00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:49,719
Speaker 1: committing espionage because it's such an old and vaguely worded law.

772
00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:51,080
Speaker 1: Can you can you can you talk to that a

773
00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:55,360
Speaker 1: little bit? Well, I mean, the media largely has chosen

774
00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:57,680
Speaker 1: a word for the day, and then they have beaten

775
00:42:57,719 --> 00:43:00,680
Speaker 1: it to death. Right, So one day it was nuclear

776
00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:04,120
Speaker 1: and then the next day it was espionage. And in

777
00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:07,759
Speaker 1: each of those, what's the point of going nuclear in

778
00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:12,319
Speaker 1: saying nuclear except to make sure that everyone understands how

779
00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:17,600
Speaker 1: important it is because it's nuclear. But the reality is

780
00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:22,160
Speaker 1: that there's no evidence other than one I don't know

781
00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:26,239
Speaker 1: offhand remark by the Washington Post that the documents had

782
00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:29,520
Speaker 1: to do with nuclear weapons. I'm not sure that that's

783
00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:34,480
Speaker 1: even true. And in the case of espionage, the section

784
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:38,000
Speaker 1: of the Espionage Act that they are referencing in the

785
00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:44,120
Speaker 1: search warrant is a section that also deals with returning

786
00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:49,880
Speaker 1: documents to the government when you are requested to return them.

787
00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:57,960
Speaker 1: So literally, it's not that Jnald Trump is being accused

788
00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:04,080
Speaker 1: of espionage or anything related to espionage. It's just that

789
00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:10,120
Speaker 1: the Espionage Act of nineteen seventeen happens to be the

790
00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:16,600
Speaker 1: law under which references are made to and I hear

791
00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:22,319
Speaker 1: I have to even correct myself, not classified documents, national

792
00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:28,480
Speaker 1: defense information. That's what the law says, national defense information.

793
00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:33,360
Speaker 1: And so all it really covers in section seven ninety

794
00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:38,759
Speaker 1: three of the Espionage Act of nineteen seventeen is that

795
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:45,680
Speaker 1: a person in possession of national defense information if requested

796
00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:51,600
Speaker 1: by a federal authority to return that information, their failure

797
00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:55,839
Speaker 1: to return that information is a violation of Section seven

798
00:44:55,960 --> 00:45:02,160
Speaker 1: ninety three. So all of the report has been exaggerated

799
00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:06,480
Speaker 1: to the point of where even we you know, just

800
00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:10,840
Speaker 1: people who are discussing it are pushed into a corner

801
00:45:11,239 --> 00:45:18,000
Speaker 1: of saying classified highly sensitive, you know, where that's not

802
00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:23,200
Speaker 1: what the Justice Department is claiming, right, And it's amazing

803
00:45:23,239 --> 00:45:27,759
Speaker 1: to me how subtle these laws are. I mean, you

804
00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:30,360
Speaker 1: mentioned the fact that it was passed I think nineteen eighteen,

805
00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:33,320
Speaker 1: and the fact that they use phrases like national defense information.

806
00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:36,839
Speaker 1: This just before the term national security even existed. So

807
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:41,799
Speaker 1: to some extent, we're projecting a certain modern frame on

808
00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:43,759
Speaker 1: this very old law. Now that's not to say that

809
00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:46,080
Speaker 1: this isn't a serious crime of what she's committed. I

810
00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:48,799
Speaker 1: don't understand why things need to be exaggerated, Like if

811
00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:52,200
Speaker 1: you retain things after being asked for them, that's still

812
00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:54,080
Speaker 1: very serious. As you know, there's a good reason for

813
00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:56,920
Speaker 1: people to be concerned about that, but kind of you know,

814
00:45:57,680 --> 00:46:01,040
Speaker 1: having this sort of hysterical perspective. And I've dug in

815
00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:03,319
Speaker 1: my own reporting to try to find out, you know,

816
00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:05,920
Speaker 1: is there any evidence for espionage has been trading these

817
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:08,600
Speaker 1: documents or selling them? I haven't found anything along those lines.

818
00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:10,640
Speaker 1: What are you hearing from your sources about what the

819
00:46:10,719 --> 00:46:13,239
Speaker 1: nature of the documents might be and what his motive

820
00:46:13,320 --> 00:46:16,040
Speaker 1: might have been in keeping these things? Well, okay, so

821
00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:21,479
Speaker 1: let's review a little bit of the history. Donald Trump

822
00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:25,200
Speaker 1: left the White House, and he did it in a

823
00:46:25,239 --> 00:46:29,680
Speaker 1: bit of a hurry, right up until very close to

824
00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:38,600
Speaker 1: January six, Trump, in his demented mind, thought that he

825
00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:41,719
Speaker 1: had won the election and that this was going to

826
00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:47,960
Speaker 1: be proven and overturned. And so part of that conviction

827
00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:52,959
Speaker 1: on President Trump's part was I'm not packing to leave.

828
00:46:55,120 --> 00:46:57,960
Speaker 1: It's like as simple as that, no one's going to

829
00:46:58,040 --> 00:47:02,480
Speaker 1: make me pack. So finally, as January twentieth came, the

830
00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:07,120
Speaker 1: transition day between the two administrations, they kind of like,

831
00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:11,600
Speaker 1: holy shit, we have to pack our boxes now and

832
00:47:11,880 --> 00:47:15,759
Speaker 1: Malania's shoes and get out of the White House. And

833
00:47:15,920 --> 00:47:19,640
Speaker 1: it was done in a kind of haphazard manner, and

834
00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:24,680
Speaker 1: it was soon discovered, it really was soon discovered that

835
00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:29,040
Speaker 1: a lot of presidential records had been taken to mar

836
00:47:29,080 --> 00:47:34,560
Speaker 1: A Lago. So I don't think it's an interesting question

837
00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:39,239
Speaker 1: to ask whether or not that was intentional. And so

838
00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:42,120
Speaker 1: here's what we do know. You know, we now know

839
00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:45,239
Speaker 1: that there were fifteen boxes of documents returned to the

840
00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:48,840
Speaker 1: National Archives in January of this year. So that was

841
00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:51,359
Speaker 1: an admission on the part of the Trump camp that

842
00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:56,320
Speaker 1: they had taken documents that they that didn't rightfully belong

843
00:47:56,440 --> 00:48:00,600
Speaker 1: to President Trump. And then there was a subpoena in

844
00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:08,120
Speaker 1: May delivered asking for additional documents, and that is admission

845
00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:11,680
Speaker 1: that the FBI was investigating Trump because it was a

846
00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:17,240
Speaker 1: grand jury subpoena. And on June third, three FBI agents

847
00:48:17,239 --> 00:48:20,239
Speaker 1: and a Justice Department official visited mar A Lago and

848
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:25,280
Speaker 1: took away additional documents. Some documents, is all we've been told.

849
00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:30,200
Speaker 1: But in doing so, they did recognize that there were

850
00:48:30,239 --> 00:48:33,560
Speaker 1: additional documents in mar A Lago because they asked that

851
00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:36,000
Speaker 1: a better lock be put on the door of the

852
00:48:36,080 --> 00:48:42,120
Speaker 1: storage room where the boxes were being kept. Sometime in

853
00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:50,880
Speaker 1: this process, someone in the Trump camp became a confidential

854
00:48:50,960 --> 00:48:56,600
Speaker 1: human source. If you want to say informant in a

855
00:48:56,880 --> 00:49:00,680
Speaker 1: loose colloquial way, I'm kind of okay with it, but

856
00:49:00,840 --> 00:49:08,000
Speaker 1: informant connotes like someone on the inside who's regularly reporting

857
00:49:08,120 --> 00:49:13,839
Speaker 1: to the FBI. And this is more a person who

858
00:49:13,920 --> 00:49:20,080
Speaker 1: came forward in this particular mad and whoever it was.

859
00:49:21,400 --> 00:49:26,400
Speaker 1: And based upon the FBI's investigation, however that has unfolded,

860
00:49:26,440 --> 00:49:30,600
Speaker 1: which we don't really know, they determined that there were

861
00:49:30,640 --> 00:49:36,200
Speaker 1: additional documents and not only that, And this is where

862
00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:44,720
Speaker 1: the raid comes in, that Trump himself had squirreled away

863
00:49:46,120 --> 00:49:53,560
Speaker 1: highly classified documents during his presidency, that he was kind

864
00:49:53,600 --> 00:49:57,359
Speaker 1: of like, if you will, his favorites of what the

865
00:49:57,400 --> 00:50:01,480
Speaker 1: CIA or the intelligence community or had had delivered to

866
00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:06,200
Speaker 1: him in different ways. And John Bolton, who was his

867
00:50:06,280 --> 00:50:11,840
Speaker 1: national security advisor, has said this week that Trump would

868
00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:16,200
Speaker 1: rip a page out of a document or like a graphic.

869
00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:21,239
Speaker 1: In particular, he liked pictures and put them in his

870
00:50:21,719 --> 00:50:26,799
Speaker 1: own file. And there's nothing wrong with it, per se.

871
00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:29,840
Speaker 1: I mean, he's the president of the United States and

872
00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:34,520
Speaker 1: commander in chief of the Armed forces. But whatever those

873
00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:40,520
Speaker 1: personal Donald Trump favorites of his four years in office,

874
00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:44,279
Speaker 1: you know, became the basis for the FBI to be

875
00:50:44,400 --> 00:50:50,080
Speaker 1: somewhat alarmed that he possessed something. When you lay out

876
00:50:50,120 --> 00:50:53,000
Speaker 1: the timeline like that, it's still as I've said, is

877
00:50:53,239 --> 00:50:54,960
Speaker 1: you know, sounds quite serious and it is something that

878
00:50:55,000 --> 00:50:58,160
Speaker 1: they should be concerned about because these documents could you know,

879
00:50:58,200 --> 00:51:00,319
Speaker 1: contain sources and method stuff that could put you know,

880
00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:04,680
Speaker 1: human sources lives at risk, could put our collection efforts

881
00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:07,960
Speaker 1: at risk. But it sounds a little different then. I

882
00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:10,359
Speaker 1: think this narrative that's taken hold of that, it's, you know,

883
00:51:10,360 --> 00:51:12,680
Speaker 1: Trump is Trump is a spy for some foreign government,

884
00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:15,839
Speaker 1: is antimilised things. It's like, you don't have to go

885
00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:19,120
Speaker 1: to that maximalized position to say that what he's done

886
00:51:19,280 --> 00:51:23,239
Speaker 1: is irresponsible or bad or terrible. And so it's sort

887
00:51:23,239 --> 00:51:25,680
Speaker 1: of amazing to me that it's taken on that character

888
00:51:25,719 --> 00:51:28,160
Speaker 1: because you know, the timeline that you described sounds like

889
00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:31,840
Speaker 1: something that you know, was more process oriented, and maybe

890
00:51:32,239 --> 00:51:34,360
Speaker 1: DOJ got to a point where they didn't know what

891
00:51:34,480 --> 00:51:36,279
Speaker 1: else to do. And I guess for that reason, I

892
00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:39,000
Speaker 1: have some sympathy for them. I mean, you're right that

893
00:51:39,000 --> 00:51:42,080
Speaker 1: there are a lot of political risks involved in a

894
00:51:42,120 --> 00:51:45,080
Speaker 1: search like that, But you know, if he's not complying,

895
00:51:45,120 --> 00:51:46,400
Speaker 1: what are they I don't know, what do you think

896
00:51:46,440 --> 00:51:50,200
Speaker 1: they're supposed to do? Well? First of all, Ken, you're

897
00:51:50,239 --> 00:51:57,560
Speaker 1: an idiot. I mean I have sympathy for Trump. I

898
00:51:57,600 --> 00:52:04,080
Speaker 1: look at this guy, and now see seven years of

899
00:52:04,160 --> 00:52:08,879
Speaker 1: investigations on the part of the FBI, and I say

900
00:52:08,920 --> 00:52:13,960
Speaker 1: to myself, if that's not the definition of political persecution,

901
00:52:15,480 --> 00:52:18,879
Speaker 1: I don't know what is. Donald Trump has not been

902
00:52:18,920 --> 00:52:23,920
Speaker 1: indicted for anything. He might be the stupidest man alive,

903
00:52:24,080 --> 00:52:28,240
Speaker 1: and he might be the most inattentive president we ever had.

904
00:52:29,200 --> 00:52:35,600
Speaker 1: But he is innocent until proven guilty. That's America. And

905
00:52:35,680 --> 00:52:40,640
Speaker 1: so if the FBI is not going to indict him,

906
00:52:40,760 --> 00:52:45,279
Speaker 1: there continued dogging of Donald Trump with these kinds of

907
00:52:46,360 --> 00:52:55,160
Speaker 1: imaginary actions on his part. He's going to reveal US

908
00:52:55,280 --> 00:53:00,359
Speaker 1: intelligence sources to the enemy. He's going to trade top

909
00:53:00,400 --> 00:53:04,840
Speaker 1: secret information for money, you know, whatever those accusations or

910
00:53:04,960 --> 00:53:08,719
Speaker 1: rumors are that are being spread around. The truth of

911
00:53:08,760 --> 00:53:11,400
Speaker 1: the matter is, if we have any evidence that Donald

912
00:53:11,440 --> 00:53:15,240
Speaker 1: Trump was preparing to sell documents to a foreign country,

913
00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:19,160
Speaker 1: or we have any evidence that Donald Trump has intentionally

914
00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:25,960
Speaker 1: divulged American sources and methods, those are crimes. Indict him

915
00:53:26,520 --> 00:53:31,040
Speaker 1: for the crime. But up until now, I operate on

916
00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:35,320
Speaker 1: the assumption that Donald Trump is innocent until proven guilty.

917
00:53:36,040 --> 00:53:39,200
Speaker 1: It doesn't matter how much I like or dislike him.

918
00:53:39,520 --> 00:53:42,479
Speaker 1: I want Donald Trump to have the same rights under

919
00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:47,080
Speaker 1: the Constitution that I have because I want to preserve

920
00:53:47,239 --> 00:53:51,240
Speaker 1: my rights. And so I look at mar A Lago,

921
00:53:51,320 --> 00:53:54,560
Speaker 1: and I say to myself, did the FBI really exhaust

922
00:53:54,600 --> 00:53:58,919
Speaker 1: all possibilities? Did no one talk to Donald Trump back

923
00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:02,880
Speaker 1: channel and say, hey, look, we have intelligence information that

924
00:54:03,000 --> 00:54:07,480
Speaker 1: indicates that you are hiding highly classified documents that we

925
00:54:07,600 --> 00:54:10,720
Speaker 1: have asked you to return, and you had better return

926
00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:14,000
Speaker 1: them because if you don't return them in one week,

927
00:54:14,080 --> 00:54:17,360
Speaker 1: we are going to execute a search warrant and recover them.

928
00:54:17,960 --> 00:54:21,840
Speaker 1: Now we're talking about Donald Trump. He might have said

929
00:54:22,040 --> 00:54:26,719
Speaker 1: go ahead, I don't care, but the reality is that

930
00:54:26,960 --> 00:54:30,680
Speaker 1: I'm not sure that that conversation ever took place. And

931
00:54:30,760 --> 00:54:34,279
Speaker 1: so therefore what Merrick Garland says, which is we exhausted

932
00:54:34,280 --> 00:54:41,799
Speaker 1: all possibilities, is a bureaucratic, lame and false statement. Right,

933
00:54:42,360 --> 00:54:47,560
Speaker 1: Donald Trump has documents. The FBI knew it in June

934
00:54:47,680 --> 00:54:50,359
Speaker 1: when they put the bigger lock on the storage room.

935
00:54:51,120 --> 00:54:55,680
Speaker 1: And now the question becomes, what transpired between June and

936
00:54:55,840 --> 00:55:02,080
Speaker 1: this last Monday that changed things so significantly that they

937
00:55:02,160 --> 00:55:06,960
Speaker 1: felt like they needed to do this unprecedented raid on

938
00:55:07,320 --> 00:55:11,960
Speaker 1: a former president's private residence. We don't know the answer

939
00:55:12,000 --> 00:55:15,200
Speaker 1: to that. Question, and I am willing to accept that

940
00:55:15,520 --> 00:55:21,160
Speaker 1: maybe something seriously did happen, that maybe one of Trump's

941
00:55:21,239 --> 00:55:25,040
Speaker 1: lawyers or someone in his camp did say to the FBI.

942
00:55:25,239 --> 00:55:28,080
Speaker 1: I know for a fact that Donald Trump has squirreled

943
00:55:28,080 --> 00:55:31,319
Speaker 1: away documents in his safe and that he is not

944
00:55:31,480 --> 00:55:34,360
Speaker 1: planning to return them when he returns the other boxes

945
00:55:34,400 --> 00:55:38,880
Speaker 1: of material that are still in his possession. But even

946
00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:44,960
Speaker 1: there was the phone call made, was the backchannel discussion made,

947
00:55:45,360 --> 00:55:52,080
Speaker 1: like can't we avoid this confrontation between the federal government.

948
00:55:52,400 --> 00:55:55,160
Speaker 1: We don't want to have a confrontation. Will you return

949
00:55:55,280 --> 00:56:00,600
Speaker 1: that material? And again, Donald Trump might have said, go

950
00:56:00,719 --> 00:56:03,279
Speaker 1: to hell, I'm not you know, what are you going

951
00:56:03,320 --> 00:56:06,160
Speaker 1: to do? Break into my house, go into my bedroom

952
00:56:06,440 --> 00:56:13,160
Speaker 1: and open the safe. But evidently, while Donald Trump might

953
00:56:13,200 --> 00:56:17,719
Speaker 1: have made that political calculation, the Justice Department seems to

954
00:56:17,760 --> 00:56:23,799
Speaker 1: have made no political calculation. And that is the tragedy

955
00:56:24,160 --> 00:56:26,799
Speaker 1: of mar A Lago. Look, we're going to see many

956
00:56:26,880 --> 00:56:31,319
Speaker 1: more episodes of the mar A Lago drama drama, right

957
00:56:31,440 --> 00:56:36,680
Speaker 1: you know now. Senator Collins, Susan Collins of Maine, has

958
00:56:36,760 --> 00:56:40,839
Speaker 1: said that the Senator Intelligence Committee, on which she sits,

959
00:56:41,440 --> 00:56:48,279
Speaker 1: is discussing forcing the Justice Department to show them the affidavit.

960
00:56:48,920 --> 00:56:51,560
Speaker 1: Now it's not just a search warrant, right, they have

961
00:56:51,640 --> 00:56:56,080
Speaker 1: to convince a judge that something is that there's a

962
00:56:56,160 --> 00:57:01,200
Speaker 1: law breaking going on. And the affidavit contains the details

963
00:57:01,719 --> 00:57:05,120
Speaker 1: of what it is that the FBI knew and what

964
00:57:05,200 --> 00:57:08,200
Speaker 1: it is that we're the laws that Donald Trump was breaking,

965
00:57:09,000 --> 00:57:12,760
Speaker 1: and it has details about what the FBI knew the investigation.

966
00:57:13,280 --> 00:57:15,440
Speaker 1: It's a statement of fact on the part of the

967
00:57:15,480 --> 00:57:18,960
Speaker 1: FBI special agent and the US attorney. This is what

968
00:57:19,000 --> 00:57:22,600
Speaker 1: we know. This is what justifies this act. If in fact,

969
00:57:22,680 --> 00:57:27,360
Speaker 1: the Senate Intelligence Committee asks for that affidavit, which will

970
00:57:27,360 --> 00:57:32,000
Speaker 1: be denied to them, then we're just going to see

971
00:57:32,000 --> 00:57:40,080
Speaker 1: this snowball into a much larger legal fight. And that's

972
00:57:40,200 --> 00:57:44,200
Speaker 1: not just like the Republican Party who is hoping to

973
00:57:44,440 --> 00:57:49,440
Speaker 1: capitalize on what happened here. This is the system of balance,

974
00:57:49,960 --> 00:57:54,040
Speaker 1: balance of powers. This is the constitutional system in operation.

975
00:57:55,320 --> 00:58:01,200
Speaker 1: And so what I'm talking about here is essential to

976
00:58:01,400 --> 00:58:05,640
Speaker 1: understanding what's going to happen in November and what's going

977
00:58:05,680 --> 00:58:09,760
Speaker 1: to happen in twenty twenty four. Has the FBI just

978
00:58:09,880 --> 00:58:13,400
Speaker 1: elected Donald Trump president as a result of mar A Lago,

979
00:58:13,600 --> 00:58:16,720
Speaker 1: Is it going to continue to bubble up and continue

980
00:58:16,760 --> 00:58:19,919
Speaker 1: to be a grievance on the part of many who

981
00:58:19,960 --> 00:58:23,960
Speaker 1: think that Donald Trump has been politically persecuted. Is mar

982
00:58:23,960 --> 00:58:26,200
Speaker 1: A Lago just going to disappear from the news and

983
00:58:26,240 --> 00:58:30,400
Speaker 1: be like another ho hum story, because the extraordinary Donald

984
00:58:30,480 --> 00:58:33,680
Speaker 1: Trump can even be embroiled in a question of whether

985
00:58:33,800 --> 00:58:37,760
Speaker 1: or not he took classified documents from the government, and

986
00:58:37,800 --> 00:58:41,160
Speaker 1: it just will go away because welcome to the Trump Show.

987
00:58:41,200 --> 00:58:45,480
Speaker 1: This is how it goes, or you're going to enter

988
00:58:46,000 --> 00:58:49,880
Speaker 1: is it actually going to be an indictment? And the

989
00:58:50,000 --> 00:58:54,480
Speaker 1: answer to all three of those questions bear upon the

990
00:58:54,520 --> 00:58:57,920
Speaker 1: future of our nation. Thanks Bill, thanks for joining us

991
00:58:57,920 --> 00:59:00,920
Speaker 1: in another edition of Breaking Points Intercept Edition. I'm Ken Klippenstein.