1 00:00:06,790 --> 00:00:10,690 Speaker 1: Amy Robach and TJ Holmes present Killer Thriller with your host, 2 00:00:10,869 --> 00:00:15,550 Speaker 1: Elisa Donovan. Hey, everybody. 3 00:00:15,570 --> 00:00:19,920 Speaker 2: Elisa Donovan here, and this is Killer Thriller. Today, we 4 00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:23,200 Speaker 2: are talking about one of the most famous murder cases 5 00:00:23,340 --> 00:00:27,240 Speaker 2: in American history, and from a perspective we almost never get. 6 00:00:28,220 --> 00:00:31,580 Speaker 2: Our guest is Denise Brown, the older sister of Nicole 7 00:00:31,620 --> 00:00:35,430 Speaker 2: Brown Simpson. More than 32 years after Nicole was murdered, 8 00:00:35,550 --> 00:00:38,670 Speaker 2: Denise has written a deeply personal new book, which comes 9 00:00:38,979 --> 00:00:43,620 Speaker 2: out tomorrow. It's called For My Sister Nicole, Love Shouldn't Hurt, 10 00:00:43,979 --> 00:00:47,600 Speaker 2: What to Know About Domestic Violence. And what struck me 11 00:00:47,659 --> 00:00:50,800 Speaker 2: about this book is that it isn't about OJ Simpson. 12 00:00:51,060 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 2: It's about Nicole, the woman behind the name and the 13 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:57,650 Speaker 2: headlines and what her own family didn't understand about what 14 00:00:57,690 --> 00:01:01,560 Speaker 2: was happening to her until it was too late. Denise 15 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:05,020 Speaker 2: writes about the abuse she witnessed, the abuse Nicole kept secret, 16 00:01:05,660 --> 00:01:09,320 Speaker 2: the journals the family discovered after her death, the murder 17 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:12,480 Speaker 2: trial that consumed the country, and the things Denise now 18 00:01:12,530 --> 00:01:15,730 Speaker 2: wishes she had understood when her sister was still alive. 19 00:01:17,250 --> 00:01:20,330 Speaker 2: And after spending more than three decades working with survivors 20 00:01:20,390 --> 00:01:23,810 Speaker 2: of domestic violence, she also wants us to understand the 21 00:01:23,850 --> 00:01:28,679 Speaker 2: warning signs that her family missed. Denise, welcome to Killer Thriller. 22 00:01:28,700 --> 00:01:30,700 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for talking with me today. 23 00:01:31,540 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 1: It's great to be here. I appreciate it. Thank you. 24 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 2: I just want to start by saying I am so 25 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:41,740 Speaker 2: profoundly sorry for what you and your family have been through. 26 00:01:41,780 --> 00:01:45,220 Speaker 2: There really aren't any words to describe it, but I 27 00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:46,910 Speaker 2: needed to just say that to you. 28 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:49,330 Speaker 1: Oh, thank you. I appreciate that. 29 00:01:49,690 --> 00:01:53,190 Speaker 2: And I was truly blown away by this book for 30 00:01:53,230 --> 00:01:56,330 Speaker 2: a multitude of reasons that we will get into. But 31 00:01:57,070 --> 00:02:00,030 Speaker 2: before we get into all of that, who was Nicole 32 00:02:00,070 --> 00:02:01,190 Speaker 2: to you as a sister? 33 00:02:01,710 --> 00:02:05,150 Speaker 1: My best friend, you know, we were less than two 34 00:02:05,190 --> 00:02:09,989 Speaker 1: years apart in age. So it was, I don't know, 35 00:02:10,030 --> 00:02:13,210 Speaker 1: there was a closeness that you couldn't really explain, you know, 36 00:02:13,510 --> 00:02:15,930 Speaker 1: and our first language, but the two of us, we 37 00:02:15,950 --> 00:02:20,290 Speaker 1: were born in Germany. So our first language was German. So, 38 00:02:20,620 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 1: you know, I mean, that was our little language that 39 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:26,460 Speaker 1: we had. And I think that made us even closer 40 00:02:26,540 --> 00:02:28,560 Speaker 1: because we didn't speak a word of English when we 41 00:02:28,580 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 1: got to the States. So when we finally came over here, 42 00:02:32,740 --> 00:02:36,570 Speaker 1: I was six and Nicole was almost five. And, you know, 43 00:02:36,590 --> 00:02:41,429 Speaker 1: there's like a two month period where we're like a year, 44 00:02:41,810 --> 00:02:43,609 Speaker 1: you know, like a couple of months, a year apart. 45 00:02:44,790 --> 00:02:47,270 Speaker 1: But yeah. So anyway, so when we came over here, 46 00:02:47,930 --> 00:02:50,269 Speaker 1: we didn't speak a word of English. My mother put 47 00:02:50,310 --> 00:02:53,330 Speaker 1: us in a school and she said after three weeks, 48 00:02:53,389 --> 00:02:56,089 Speaker 1: the two of you were just speaking English. You're just 49 00:02:56,110 --> 00:03:00,200 Speaker 1: gabbing away in English. And, you know, but that's really true. 50 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:06,180 Speaker 1: I mean, young kids are like sponges. They take everything in. So, 51 00:03:06,460 --> 00:03:09,200 Speaker 1: and that's exactly what Nicole and I did. But yet 52 00:03:09,300 --> 00:03:12,320 Speaker 1: we kept that closeness because every time we had something 53 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:16,100 Speaker 1: to say, you know, or we didn't like something, we 54 00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:21,530 Speaker 1: would be talking in German. Right, right. What a great little, yeah, yeah. Yeah, 55 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:24,910 Speaker 1: so anyway, so we just had a wonderful, wonderful time. 56 00:03:25,450 --> 00:03:29,389 Speaker 1: A great upbringing. You know, the two of us, I mean, 57 00:03:29,430 --> 00:03:32,910 Speaker 1: I can explain it probably better like this. A girlfriend 58 00:03:32,950 --> 00:03:36,450 Speaker 1: of ours, she said, oh, my gosh, if one of 59 00:03:36,470 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 1: them was angry with you, the other one was angry 60 00:03:39,590 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 1: with you. You know, so it was like, okay, well, 61 00:03:43,180 --> 00:03:46,500 Speaker 1: this is just the way we were. Right. Two little 62 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:50,620 Speaker 1: Indians that were just like this, just always together. Did 63 00:03:50,940 --> 00:03:52,240 Speaker 1: everything together. Yes. 64 00:03:53,830 --> 00:03:56,230 Speaker 2: What do you think is the biggest thing that people 65 00:03:56,270 --> 00:03:58,760 Speaker 2: misunderstand about Nicole? 66 00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:02,280 Speaker 1: Well, I think they painted an ugly picture of Nicole 67 00:04:02,380 --> 00:04:05,820 Speaker 1: after she was murdered. And I don't believe that they 68 00:04:05,860 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 1: truly know Nicole. And I think that they, you know, 69 00:04:09,540 --> 00:04:12,180 Speaker 1: with all the tabloids and with all the stuff that 70 00:04:12,220 --> 00:04:15,160 Speaker 1: was out there, I truly believe that they have a 71 00:04:15,340 --> 00:04:20,050 Speaker 1: completely wrong idea of who Nicole really was. I mean, 72 00:04:20,070 --> 00:04:24,540 Speaker 1: she was a woman who was, one, she was very spiritual. Two, 73 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:27,190 Speaker 1: I mean, that was my mother's side because my mother 74 00:04:27,230 --> 00:04:31,050 Speaker 1: was a very spiritual woman. We were both raised Catholic, 75 00:04:31,190 --> 00:04:34,690 Speaker 1: but it wasn't like the sit, stand, kneel. It wasn't 76 00:04:34,710 --> 00:04:36,830 Speaker 1: like we had to go to church every day to believe, 77 00:04:37,529 --> 00:04:41,320 Speaker 1: you know. So it was just about doing good and 78 00:04:41,380 --> 00:04:45,780 Speaker 1: being good. And that's how my mom raised us, my 79 00:04:45,820 --> 00:04:49,580 Speaker 1: mom and dad. You know, you do right. You know, 80 00:04:49,610 --> 00:04:53,070 Speaker 1: she always believed in the Ten Commandments. Mm-hmm. You know, 81 00:04:53,130 --> 00:04:55,710 Speaker 1: you do unto others as you would like to have 82 00:04:55,750 --> 00:04:58,830 Speaker 1: done unto you. And I mean, that's just common sense. 83 00:04:59,050 --> 00:05:02,110 Speaker 1: That's just common courtesy to people. You know, your neighbors, 84 00:05:02,170 --> 00:05:06,450 Speaker 1: people you live around. You do good. You are kind. 85 00:05:06,470 --> 00:05:09,610 Speaker 1: You know, and that's who Nicole was. I mean, she 86 00:05:09,650 --> 00:05:12,270 Speaker 1: was just a really kind person. But what I love 87 00:05:12,490 --> 00:05:14,770 Speaker 1: is that other people are saying this about her now 88 00:05:15,300 --> 00:05:19,360 Speaker 1: because everybody expects a family member to say this, right? 89 00:05:19,380 --> 00:05:26,750 Speaker 1: And every family member does. Was Nicole hardheaded and stubborn? Absolutely. 90 00:05:27,610 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 1: But was she the feisty, strong-willed, funny, happy-go-lucky girl? Yeah, 91 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:36,680 Speaker 1: she was all of the above. You know, I mean, 92 00:05:36,820 --> 00:05:41,820 Speaker 1: kids are kids. And, you know, we have our own personalities, 93 00:05:41,900 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 1: which we did. And both very strong personalities. But she 94 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:51,900 Speaker 1: was just such a loving person. Just such a loving person. 95 00:05:52,300 --> 00:05:54,919 Speaker 1: And when other people say it, I am so happy. 96 00:05:54,940 --> 00:05:58,110 Speaker 1: I really am. I mean, it really makes my heart 97 00:05:58,190 --> 00:06:01,510 Speaker 1: feel like, wow, somebody else besides me is saying this 98 00:06:01,570 --> 00:06:04,610 Speaker 1: about her, and it really makes me feel good. Right. 99 00:06:06,110 --> 00:06:09,109 Speaker 2: You say in this book that this is not about him, 100 00:06:09,150 --> 00:06:12,750 Speaker 2: and this book is for my sister. And you make 101 00:06:12,790 --> 00:06:18,779 Speaker 2: a very conscious and in my opinion, extraordinarily effective choice 102 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:22,299 Speaker 2: to not use his name when you reference him throughout 103 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:28,680 Speaker 2: the book. I'm of course speaking about OJ. So did you, like, 104 00:06:28,779 --> 00:06:30,400 Speaker 2: what was the intention behind that? 105 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:33,550 Speaker 1: Really no intention because he's never been a part of 106 00:06:33,589 --> 00:06:37,350 Speaker 1: my speeches over the last 30 years. I mean, he has, 107 00:06:38,410 --> 00:06:42,529 Speaker 1: actually this is so about Nicole and other victims of 108 00:06:42,570 --> 00:06:46,750 Speaker 1: domestic violence that he actually did not even exist in 109 00:06:46,830 --> 00:06:50,760 Speaker 1: my brain for 30 years, for the last 30 years. 110 00:06:51,339 --> 00:06:53,720 Speaker 1: I mean, it was something that was horrific, something that 111 00:06:53,740 --> 00:06:57,100 Speaker 1: was horrible, something that he did. And I will take 112 00:06:57,140 --> 00:06:59,339 Speaker 1: that to my grave with me because that's what I 113 00:06:59,380 --> 00:07:04,260 Speaker 1: truly believe. But I just, he's just doesn't, I won't 114 00:07:04,300 --> 00:07:06,880 Speaker 1: let him take up space in my brain. Yeah. I'm 115 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 1: very good at that. I can just like, kind of just, 116 00:07:09,300 --> 00:07:10,230 Speaker 1: you're just gone. 117 00:07:10,490 --> 00:07:13,630 Speaker 2: Which is probably, you know, one of the most Something 118 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:18,000 Speaker 2: that would infuriate him the most, being a narcissist. He 119 00:07:18,020 --> 00:07:20,880 Speaker 2: would want to take up that space. And I just 120 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:24,980 Speaker 2: felt it was so effective in the sense that it 121 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:29,500 Speaker 2: allows the readers to just... imagine he's an average person. 122 00:07:29,700 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 2: So rather than having this bias of the distraction of 123 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:38,060 Speaker 2: him being so famous and things, and it's very effective 124 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:42,110 Speaker 2: in that regard of how it really further reveals how 125 00:07:42,150 --> 00:07:47,830 Speaker 2: this can happen to anyone and that it isn't about him. 126 00:07:48,050 --> 00:07:51,570 Speaker 1: Well, I'm glad you saw that. I'm glad you realized 127 00:07:51,610 --> 00:07:58,980 Speaker 1: that because this is truly about People trying to save lives, 128 00:07:59,020 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 1: trying to help individuals and trying to explain that, hey, 129 00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:08,740 Speaker 1: I made mistakes. I made huge mistakes until I knew 130 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:12,200 Speaker 1: what domestic violence was all about. I said and did 131 00:08:12,260 --> 00:08:15,400 Speaker 1: all the wrong things, too. So, you know, I just 132 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:18,440 Speaker 1: want people to learn. And I'm not one to learn 133 00:08:18,820 --> 00:08:21,190 Speaker 1: like in a classroom. I mean, yes, of course, I 134 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:24,810 Speaker 1: went to school, the whole thing. But I'm more about 135 00:08:24,870 --> 00:08:30,160 Speaker 1: learning with the storytelling. I couldn't, that resonates with me. 136 00:08:30,580 --> 00:08:34,729 Speaker 1: So I'm hoping that this book or my sister, Nicole 137 00:08:34,830 --> 00:08:39,730 Speaker 1: love shouldn't hurt will resonate through the storytelling. Yep. 138 00:08:40,510 --> 00:08:42,849 Speaker 2: I think that is a very, I, I obviously this, 139 00:08:43,270 --> 00:08:47,050 Speaker 2: this podcast is really, we, we cover how things are 140 00:08:47,090 --> 00:08:50,980 Speaker 2: told through story and it's very, it allows us to, 141 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:56,850 Speaker 2: to in a different way to actually download these things and, and, 142 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:02,840 Speaker 2: understand the real depth of them in a different way. 143 00:09:02,900 --> 00:09:06,800 Speaker 2: And I think that you're exactly right. And the book 144 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:12,180 Speaker 2: really does this powerful job of utilizing your hindsight and 145 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:16,670 Speaker 2: then inserting that into the recounting of your experience with 146 00:09:17,450 --> 00:09:21,050 Speaker 2: the mounting abuse. And it felt to me like this 147 00:09:21,710 --> 00:09:26,320 Speaker 2: a step-by-step roadmap of a narcissist and a pathological abuser. 148 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:30,220 Speaker 2: And it serves as like, almost as a warning to people. 149 00:09:30,300 --> 00:09:32,439 Speaker 2: Was that what she wanted to do? 150 00:09:33,220 --> 00:09:37,580 Speaker 1: Actually, it was a couple, it was a process because 151 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:39,360 Speaker 1: at first it was going to be just a memoir. 152 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:42,900 Speaker 1: And then I thought, oh God, who cares about what 153 00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:48,910 Speaker 1: Denise does? I really didn't. Then it kind of morphed 154 00:09:48,929 --> 00:09:52,600 Speaker 1: into what it is today. And I was really grateful 155 00:09:52,660 --> 00:09:55,970 Speaker 1: that Blackstone Publishing wanted to do a domestic violence book 156 00:09:56,830 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 1: because that's where my passion lies. That's what I do. do. 157 00:10:01,179 --> 00:10:04,420 Speaker 1: And so for this to become the book that it was, 158 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:08,550 Speaker 1: took about three years. And, you know, so it's not 159 00:10:08,670 --> 00:10:11,870 Speaker 1: something that just goes, okay, boom, here you have a book. 160 00:10:12,410 --> 00:10:15,689 Speaker 1: But it was a process. And it was not an 161 00:10:15,809 --> 00:10:19,700 Speaker 1: easy process for me. Because telling these stories and remembering 162 00:10:19,780 --> 00:10:23,200 Speaker 1: these things that happened that were so horrific 30 years ago, 163 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:26,900 Speaker 1: 32 years ago, I mean, that was tough. It was 164 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:31,630 Speaker 1: really tough. But my whole purpose in life is that 165 00:10:31,650 --> 00:10:34,670 Speaker 1: if I can save one life, I feel like I 166 00:10:34,690 --> 00:10:38,230 Speaker 1: fulfilled that purpose. And that's what I wanted to do 167 00:10:38,270 --> 00:10:42,130 Speaker 1: with this book. So, yes, I am really happy that 168 00:10:42,190 --> 00:10:47,750 Speaker 1: it turned into a book of storytelling, of resources. of, 169 00:10:48,330 --> 00:10:51,550 Speaker 1: you know, letting people know of what not to say, 170 00:10:51,750 --> 00:10:55,920 Speaker 1: what to say, you know, the warning signs and, you know, 171 00:10:56,100 --> 00:10:59,940 Speaker 1: all of the above. And just giving them resources to 172 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:03,900 Speaker 1: understand that, hey, you know, you're not alone, first of all. 173 00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:07,120 Speaker 1: If you are a victim of domestic violence, you're definitely 174 00:11:07,179 --> 00:11:10,350 Speaker 1: not alone. There is help out there for you. And 175 00:11:10,410 --> 00:11:13,150 Speaker 1: I even try to go through the explanation of telling 176 00:11:13,190 --> 00:11:18,189 Speaker 1: people When I was in like Boston College and a 177 00:11:18,230 --> 00:11:20,290 Speaker 1: young man, he asked me, he said, Denise, he goes, 178 00:11:20,750 --> 00:11:24,290 Speaker 1: what do you tell someone? Because I know my sister's 179 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:28,520 Speaker 1: a victim of domestic violence. What can I do? And 180 00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:31,780 Speaker 1: I told him, I said, you know, I said, you 181 00:11:31,860 --> 00:11:36,040 Speaker 1: need to know, learn everything you can about domestic violence. 182 00:11:36,580 --> 00:11:39,860 Speaker 1: Learn about the cycle of domestic violence, the power and 183 00:11:39,900 --> 00:11:43,969 Speaker 1: control wheel. And that starts with the verbal, the emotional, 184 00:11:44,030 --> 00:11:48,630 Speaker 1: the psychological abuse, the chipping away at somebody's self-esteem. You're stupid. 185 00:11:48,670 --> 00:11:51,670 Speaker 1: You're ugly. You're worthless. You're no good. Nobody's going to 186 00:11:51,710 --> 00:11:56,199 Speaker 1: want you. That escalates into the physical violence. That's the hitting, 187 00:11:56,220 --> 00:11:59,579 Speaker 1: the kicking, the punching, throwing up against walls that everybody 188 00:11:59,620 --> 00:12:02,940 Speaker 1: talks about, that we know about, right? The physical. And 189 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:05,439 Speaker 1: then there's the honeymoon phase of the, oh, baby, I'm 190 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 1: so sorry. The gifts, the flowers, the excuses, the I'm sorry's. Well, 191 00:12:11,300 --> 00:12:14,940 Speaker 1: it's that cycle of violence that is about power and 192 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:19,900 Speaker 1: control of one human being over another. And that's what 193 00:12:19,940 --> 00:12:22,420 Speaker 1: I told them. I said, learn about it. And then 194 00:12:22,460 --> 00:12:25,140 Speaker 1: when you set that person down and you say, listen, 195 00:12:25,179 --> 00:12:27,500 Speaker 1: this is what I've learned. This is what I know. 196 00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:30,290 Speaker 1: And you're going to get a lot of no, no, no, 197 00:12:30,390 --> 00:12:33,530 Speaker 1: that's not happening to me because there's so much denial 198 00:12:34,170 --> 00:12:39,010 Speaker 1: in domestic violence with victims. That, you know, you'll just, 199 00:12:39,250 --> 00:12:41,829 Speaker 1: what you've done is you've opened up that door to conversation. 200 00:12:42,390 --> 00:12:45,050 Speaker 1: You've opened up that door to, okay, if they are 201 00:12:45,140 --> 00:12:48,620 Speaker 1: ready and when they are ready to leave, they will 202 00:12:48,660 --> 00:12:51,340 Speaker 1: hopefully call you. Right. 203 00:12:52,059 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 2: I just, I'm going to say one thing because I 204 00:12:55,380 --> 00:12:58,390 Speaker 2: have to, I don't want me to get distracted by this, 205 00:12:58,450 --> 00:13:01,230 Speaker 2: but we do have a friend in our lives where 206 00:13:01,309 --> 00:13:06,470 Speaker 2: my husband tried to help her desperately and She is 207 00:13:06,510 --> 00:13:11,069 Speaker 2: in an abusive and continues to be marriage. And she 208 00:13:11,150 --> 00:13:14,510 Speaker 2: came to us for help. And he did everything. He 209 00:13:14,590 --> 00:13:18,340 Speaker 2: took the police reports. He took all of her text messages. 210 00:13:18,380 --> 00:13:21,040 Speaker 2: He did all the things, set her up with an attorney, 211 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:25,579 Speaker 2: set her up with the things. And she just backtracked 212 00:13:25,620 --> 00:13:27,470 Speaker 2: and stayed with him. So it is hard. 213 00:13:29,510 --> 00:13:34,050 Speaker 1: It is. It's very difficult. And a victim of domestic 214 00:13:34,090 --> 00:13:37,990 Speaker 1: violence will go back seven to 10 times. So I 215 00:13:38,050 --> 00:13:41,750 Speaker 1: always encourage people, be supportive, be there for that person, 216 00:13:41,790 --> 00:13:46,960 Speaker 1: because that maybe fifth time, 10th time, they will leave 217 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:49,900 Speaker 1: that situation, hopefully, and not end up like Nicole. 218 00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:50,640 Speaker 2: Right. 219 00:13:51,340 --> 00:13:53,540 Speaker 1: And that's what I tell people, too. I said, you know, 220 00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:58,449 Speaker 1: when you learn about domestic violence and you understand that 221 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:04,689 Speaker 1: Murder is the ultimate form of domestic violence. I just 222 00:14:04,790 --> 00:14:07,630 Speaker 1: always say you don't want to end up like Nicole. 223 00:14:08,510 --> 00:14:11,860 Speaker 1: And even when I'm trying to explain the cycle of violence, 224 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:15,540 Speaker 1: I just I still let people know you don't want 225 00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:18,679 Speaker 1: to be Nicole. You don't want to be a Nicole. 226 00:14:33,070 --> 00:14:37,030 Speaker 2: So you've said that when you first met OJ as 227 00:14:37,090 --> 00:14:41,370 Speaker 2: Nicole's boyfriend in 1977, you heard her crying after he 228 00:14:41,410 --> 00:14:45,630 Speaker 2: became angry because she had kissed a male friend platonically 229 00:14:45,950 --> 00:14:49,250 Speaker 2: on the cheek. And you offered to take her home, 230 00:14:49,370 --> 00:14:53,030 Speaker 2: but she said everything was fine. Looking back, do you 231 00:14:53,070 --> 00:14:55,870 Speaker 2: feel that was the first warning sign that you missed? 232 00:14:56,170 --> 00:14:58,370 Speaker 1: Well, that was the first time I had ever seen anything, yes. 233 00:14:59,540 --> 00:15:02,510 Speaker 1: And had I known, and had I been educated about 234 00:15:02,550 --> 00:15:07,470 Speaker 1: domestic violence, because remember, I mean, this was, I come 235 00:15:07,510 --> 00:15:10,430 Speaker 1: from a very loving home. We didn't have domestic violence 236 00:15:10,490 --> 00:15:13,610 Speaker 1: in our home. And oftentimes people talk about, oh, it's 237 00:15:13,630 --> 00:15:16,890 Speaker 1: a learned behavior. You learn it in the home. Well, 238 00:15:16,910 --> 00:15:19,570 Speaker 1: we didn't learn that in the home. That was not 239 00:15:19,710 --> 00:15:22,490 Speaker 1: in our home at all. And I never heard my 240 00:15:22,530 --> 00:15:25,890 Speaker 1: parents yelling or screaming at each other. So for me, 241 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 1: You know, when people say this is a learned behavior, well, 242 00:15:29,450 --> 00:15:32,890 Speaker 1: it wasn't learned in our house. But I do know 243 00:15:32,950 --> 00:15:36,010 Speaker 1: that he had it in his home. And, you know, 244 00:15:36,090 --> 00:15:39,090 Speaker 1: so it's got to be. And then you have to 245 00:15:39,150 --> 00:15:41,910 Speaker 1: remember also that Nicole was only 18 years old. 246 00:15:43,170 --> 00:15:45,430 Speaker 2: It's so important to remember that. 247 00:15:45,610 --> 00:15:49,310 Speaker 1: Yeah, she was 18 years old. She wasn't a 37-year-old 248 00:15:49,370 --> 00:15:53,100 Speaker 1: woman with two kids, you know, or a 35-year-old woman 249 00:15:53,130 --> 00:15:58,310 Speaker 1: with two kids. She was an 18-year-old child. And she, 250 00:15:58,510 --> 00:16:03,050 Speaker 1: when she first met him, she was head over heels 251 00:16:03,130 --> 00:16:06,690 Speaker 1: in love. It was like, I remember her telling me 252 00:16:06,710 --> 00:16:09,510 Speaker 1: a story and I thought, Oh God, that's so weird. 253 00:16:09,530 --> 00:16:12,260 Speaker 1: That doesn't even sound like you, Nicole. But what it 254 00:16:12,340 --> 00:16:15,340 Speaker 1: was is she says, you know, I got an apartment 255 00:16:15,540 --> 00:16:18,860 Speaker 1: or he got her an apartment because Nicole, when she 256 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:22,040 Speaker 1: was 18 years old, she told my mother, she says, 257 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:24,670 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I'm going to move out when I'm 18. 258 00:16:24,670 --> 00:16:28,300 Speaker 1: And my mom says, okay. So, At 18 years old, 259 00:16:30,060 --> 00:16:34,020 Speaker 1: her birthday came and went. She didn't move out. She 260 00:16:34,060 --> 00:16:36,180 Speaker 1: was still there. All of a sudden, my mom says, 261 00:16:36,260 --> 00:16:39,890 Speaker 1: three days after her 18th birthday, all of a sudden, 262 00:16:39,930 --> 00:16:43,470 Speaker 1: Nicole comes out with a suitcase. And my mom goes, well, 263 00:16:43,490 --> 00:16:46,250 Speaker 1: where are you going? She goes, well, mom, I told 264 00:16:46,290 --> 00:16:48,730 Speaker 1: you I was moving out when I was 18, right? 265 00:16:49,730 --> 00:16:53,250 Speaker 1: So anyhow, she wanted to be a photographer. She was 266 00:16:53,350 --> 00:16:57,200 Speaker 1: great at photography. And so she ended up moving in 267 00:16:57,260 --> 00:17:00,260 Speaker 1: with a friend of ours, David Labon. David Labon was 268 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:04,860 Speaker 1: actually the guy, still a very good friend, who took 269 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:09,379 Speaker 1: the cover of the book. I mean, he was doing 270 00:17:09,740 --> 00:17:13,820 Speaker 1: shoots with Nicole, with me, with my sister, with my grandfather, 271 00:17:13,859 --> 00:17:16,790 Speaker 1: with our animals, with everybody. I mean, he was just 272 00:17:16,830 --> 00:17:19,850 Speaker 1: a wonderful guy. So anyway, Nicole wanted to follow in 273 00:17:19,950 --> 00:17:25,359 Speaker 1: his footsteps. And he went to Brook Institute for photography 274 00:17:25,380 --> 00:17:28,919 Speaker 1: up in Santa Barbara. And so when Nicole decided she 275 00:17:28,940 --> 00:17:33,000 Speaker 1: was moving out, he was like a brother to her, right? 276 00:17:33,020 --> 00:17:36,320 Speaker 1: Taking her under his wing and just a really great guy. 277 00:17:37,140 --> 00:17:40,290 Speaker 1: And Nicole moved in with him and he was sleeping 278 00:17:40,350 --> 00:17:43,550 Speaker 1: on the couch. She got the bedroom. Well, a week 279 00:17:43,730 --> 00:17:48,729 Speaker 1: after that, she met him at the Daisy when she 280 00:17:48,770 --> 00:17:52,669 Speaker 1: was hosting. She was the hostess at the Daisy. So 281 00:17:52,970 --> 00:17:57,770 Speaker 1: it wasn't long after that. He said, my girl is 282 00:17:57,890 --> 00:18:01,090 Speaker 1: not going to be living with a guy. So he 283 00:18:01,130 --> 00:18:05,430 Speaker 1: put her up in an apartment. Well, this was a long. 284 00:18:05,270 --> 00:18:11,310 Speaker 3: Story, but having said that, she said, Oh, Denise, she goes, yeah, 285 00:18:11,350 --> 00:18:14,010 Speaker 3: sometimes I'd be sitting home at night and I know 286 00:18:14,070 --> 00:18:16,250 Speaker 3: he'd be calling because remember back in the. 287 00:18:16,230 --> 00:18:20,790 Speaker 1: Day when we had, um, the recorder answering machine, exactly. 288 00:18:21,130 --> 00:18:23,649 Speaker 1: So you could hear who was talking to you. And 289 00:18:23,670 --> 00:18:27,060 Speaker 1: she said, I purposely did not pick up the phone 290 00:18:27,100 --> 00:18:30,380 Speaker 1: because I did not think that I didn't want him 291 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:33,290 Speaker 1: to think that I was sitting at home waiting for him. 292 00:18:34,100 --> 00:18:36,980 Speaker 1: And I said, I said, you did what? I said, 293 00:18:37,010 --> 00:18:39,649 Speaker 1: what kind of game is that? And she says, well, 294 00:18:39,910 --> 00:18:41,750 Speaker 1: she goes, I just didn't want him to think. She goes, 295 00:18:41,830 --> 00:18:45,330 Speaker 1: I really kind of like him, you know? So anyhow, 296 00:18:45,810 --> 00:18:49,490 Speaker 1: fast forward, to the story that you just told, having 297 00:18:49,530 --> 00:18:52,530 Speaker 1: her crying in the bathroom, she called me up. I 298 00:18:52,570 --> 00:18:54,990 Speaker 1: was living in New York. And she called me up 299 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:57,699 Speaker 1: and she said, Denise, she goes, I'd really love for 300 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:00,900 Speaker 1: you to meet my boyfriend. Well, I hadn't heard about 301 00:19:00,940 --> 00:19:04,660 Speaker 1: this boyfriend yet. And this was eight months into their relationship. 302 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:05,840 Speaker 3: Wow. 303 00:19:06,420 --> 00:19:09,340 Speaker 1: I know. So my parents had met him. Even the 304 00:19:09,359 --> 00:19:12,350 Speaker 1: girl that wrote the foreword in my book, Eve Shakti Chen, 305 00:19:13,050 --> 00:19:17,150 Speaker 1: she even met him before I did. And she said, 306 00:19:17,230 --> 00:19:20,670 Speaker 1: she goes, oh my God, he thought he hit the jackpot, 307 00:19:21,270 --> 00:19:26,390 Speaker 1: you know, living behind a gated community, having this loving family. 308 00:19:27,010 --> 00:19:30,550 Speaker 1: And so he was totally enamored with, you know, Nicole 309 00:19:30,609 --> 00:19:33,570 Speaker 1: and with the family and with everybody. So she wanted 310 00:19:33,609 --> 00:19:37,619 Speaker 1: me to meet him. Finally, after eight months, anyhow, my 311 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:41,020 Speaker 1: little sister, Dominique and I, we go up to New York, 312 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:46,440 Speaker 1: up to Buffalo. And So he's charming. He's very nice. 313 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:50,260 Speaker 1: You know, he said, well, before we even go up, there, 314 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:54,000 Speaker 1: she says, he's a football player. And I had to laugh. 315 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:56,480 Speaker 1: I go, what do we know about football? Nothing. We 316 00:19:56,510 --> 00:20:02,370 Speaker 1: were four girls, right? So anyhow, so we go up there. 317 00:20:03,150 --> 00:20:06,290 Speaker 1: Charming as all can be. We go to Niagara Falls. 318 00:20:06,410 --> 00:20:10,540 Speaker 1: He plays photographer. He has his arm wrapped up. And 319 00:20:10,580 --> 00:20:14,420 Speaker 1: I'm thinking, why? And she goes, oh, he doesn't want 320 00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:17,660 Speaker 1: to sign autographs. And I said, oh, well, I didn't 321 00:20:17,700 --> 00:20:19,899 Speaker 1: know how big he was at the time. He was 322 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:22,669 Speaker 1: just a guy. He was my sister's boyfriend. He had 323 00:20:22,710 --> 00:20:25,629 Speaker 1: a visor on. He had dark glasses on. And then 324 00:20:25,670 --> 00:20:28,770 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, this rap came off of his arm. 325 00:20:30,109 --> 00:20:33,030 Speaker 1: And I thought, okay. Then all of a sudden, the 326 00:20:33,869 --> 00:20:37,570 Speaker 1: voice started getting louder. And I thought, okay, that's unusual. 327 00:20:38,730 --> 00:20:41,939 Speaker 1: And all of a sudden people realized who it was. 328 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:45,460 Speaker 1: And I said, I said, Oh my God. And that 329 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:49,210 Speaker 1: was the first time I honestly saw, you know, he 330 00:20:49,250 --> 00:20:52,470 Speaker 1: didn't get enough attention and he, yeah. And he needed 331 00:20:52,530 --> 00:20:57,410 Speaker 1: the attention. And I thought, wow, that's really strange. I said, Nick, 332 00:20:57,450 --> 00:20:59,950 Speaker 1: I said, what is that all about? She goes, well, 333 00:20:59,990 --> 00:21:03,129 Speaker 1: they're his fans. That's what he does. That's his living. 334 00:21:03,150 --> 00:21:06,659 Speaker 1: And I said, Oh, okay. So we just continued looking and, 335 00:21:06,990 --> 00:21:10,379 Speaker 1: you know, the three sisters together and, just talking and 336 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:14,350 Speaker 1: looking at the scenery, which was absolutely stunning and magnificent, 337 00:21:14,470 --> 00:21:17,550 Speaker 1: Niagara Falls. And then the next day we went to 338 00:21:17,590 --> 00:21:22,730 Speaker 1: a football game. And this was the day that Nicole 339 00:21:22,810 --> 00:21:26,660 Speaker 1: ended up coming home after kissing their friend, their friend, 340 00:21:26,740 --> 00:21:30,180 Speaker 1: mind you. Hello on the cheek, because we're European. That's 341 00:21:30,220 --> 00:21:34,919 Speaker 1: what we do. And since it was their friend, she 342 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:37,050 Speaker 1: didn't see anything wrong with it. I didn't see anything 343 00:21:37,090 --> 00:21:39,630 Speaker 1: wrong with it. But at that very moment, he was 344 00:21:39,670 --> 00:21:43,550 Speaker 1: telling a teammate, hey, that's my girl. At the very 345 00:21:43,609 --> 00:21:47,620 Speaker 1: moment that she was kissing him, hello. And so anyway, 346 00:21:47,670 --> 00:21:53,100 Speaker 1: so hence, moving forward, we're at home. I'm in the bedroom. 347 00:21:53,260 --> 00:21:55,100 Speaker 1: Nicole's in the bathroom. All of a sudden, I hear 348 00:21:55,140 --> 00:21:58,560 Speaker 1: her crying. And I run into the bathroom. I go, Nick, 349 00:21:58,619 --> 00:22:01,080 Speaker 1: I said, what is going on? And she says to me, 350 00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:03,179 Speaker 1: she goes, I hate him. 351 00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:03,719 Speaker 3: I hate him. 352 00:22:03,820 --> 00:22:06,240 Speaker 1: I hate him. She takes the figurine. She throws it 353 00:22:06,310 --> 00:22:09,710 Speaker 1: into the bathtub. I hate him. And then she pulls 354 00:22:09,750 --> 00:22:14,570 Speaker 1: herself together and she goes downstairs. And all of a 355 00:22:14,590 --> 00:22:17,369 Speaker 1: sudden it's quiet. She comes back up and she goes, oh, 356 00:22:17,450 --> 00:22:19,629 Speaker 1: are you going to wear that dress out tonight? And 357 00:22:19,650 --> 00:22:23,010 Speaker 1: I go, whoa. I said, what happened? And she goes, oh, 358 00:22:23,330 --> 00:22:27,210 Speaker 1: I embarrassed him. And I said, you embarrassed him. I said, 359 00:22:27,250 --> 00:22:30,600 Speaker 1: how did you embarrass him? And she says, well, you know, 360 00:22:30,650 --> 00:22:33,840 Speaker 1: and then I, you know, that whole story again of 361 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:38,609 Speaker 1: that's my girl. And so she took the blame on this. Well, 362 00:22:39,270 --> 00:22:44,420 Speaker 1: I kind of dismissed it because what did I know? Right. Nothing. Right. 363 00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:48,450 Speaker 2: And she recovered so quickly and it just seems like. 364 00:22:48,630 --> 00:22:50,190 Speaker 1: A natural thing. Right. 365 00:22:50,850 --> 00:22:51,090 Speaker 3: Yeah. 366 00:23:05,910 --> 00:23:08,750 Speaker 2: So then a couple of years later, you found a 367 00:23:08,790 --> 00:23:12,850 Speaker 2: Polaroid of Nicole with a battered face and one eye 368 00:23:13,030 --> 00:23:15,750 Speaker 2: nearly swollen shut. And she told you that it was 369 00:23:16,090 --> 00:23:18,550 Speaker 2: movie makeup. Did you believe her in that moment? 370 00:23:19,510 --> 00:23:22,429 Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. Why shouldn't I? You know, I was looking. 371 00:23:22,630 --> 00:23:25,830 Speaker 1: We were getting ready. And I was looking through her drawers. 372 00:23:25,910 --> 00:23:28,360 Speaker 1: I said, wear some lip gloss or God knows what. 373 00:23:29,100 --> 00:23:31,980 Speaker 1: And I see this Polaroid and it's just laying on top. 374 00:23:32,690 --> 00:23:34,840 Speaker 1: And I see the Polaroid, I pull it out and 375 00:23:34,859 --> 00:23:37,320 Speaker 1: I said, oh my God, Nick, I said, what happened? 376 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:40,900 Speaker 1: And she says, isn't that great? She goes, the makeup 377 00:23:40,980 --> 00:23:44,080 Speaker 1: artist at whatever movie he was doing, I don't recall 378 00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:47,110 Speaker 1: at the moment, but she painted a black eye on me. 379 00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:50,730 Speaker 1: I said, oh my God, I said, this looks so real. 380 00:23:51,070 --> 00:23:53,710 Speaker 1: And I threw it back in the drawer, thinking nothing 381 00:23:53,810 --> 00:23:54,040 Speaker 1: of it. 382 00:23:54,630 --> 00:23:55,250 Speaker 2: Oh my God. 383 00:23:56,109 --> 00:23:59,920 Speaker 1: So what I just want people to know and victims 384 00:23:59,960 --> 00:24:04,100 Speaker 1: of domestic violence to know that they're not alone, that 385 00:24:04,140 --> 00:24:07,620 Speaker 1: they don't need to be ashamed, that this is happening 386 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:11,620 Speaker 1: to other people and that there is help for them. Right, right. 387 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:14,090 Speaker 1: And that, you know, there are a lot of people 388 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:17,390 Speaker 1: out there that are concerned that want to help and 389 00:24:17,410 --> 00:24:20,169 Speaker 1: they don't have to feel ashamed. Right. 390 00:24:20,730 --> 00:24:23,490 Speaker 2: It's so important to say that. The shame, I think, 391 00:24:23,550 --> 00:24:25,950 Speaker 2: is a very big factor that we don't talk about 392 00:24:25,990 --> 00:24:29,570 Speaker 2: that much. And then, of course, like the more it escalates, 393 00:24:29,650 --> 00:24:33,060 Speaker 2: then it feels as though, well, now it's insurmountable. Now 394 00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:36,979 Speaker 2: I can't tell people because it's become so extreme. So 395 00:24:37,020 --> 00:24:42,080 Speaker 2: you're in this dance of constantly trying to hide things 396 00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:44,800 Speaker 2: from people and then still act like everything's fine and 397 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:45,740 Speaker 2: protect yourself. 398 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:49,610 Speaker 1: Yeah, I know. It's an ugly, ugly, ugly, horrific thing 399 00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:53,770 Speaker 1: that happens to victims of domestic violence. And I just 400 00:24:53,790 --> 00:24:57,910 Speaker 1: sit there and I just think about it. And it's 401 00:24:57,990 --> 00:25:02,750 Speaker 1: really interesting because I can talk to people And I 402 00:25:03,010 --> 00:25:07,230 Speaker 1: can listen to people and like maybe judges or prosecutors 403 00:25:07,290 --> 00:25:09,090 Speaker 1: or people like that. And they go, oh, I know 404 00:25:09,150 --> 00:25:11,810 Speaker 1: everything there is to learn about domestic violence. I don't 405 00:25:11,850 --> 00:25:16,189 Speaker 1: need to learn anything. Wrong. OK, because you know what 406 00:25:16,310 --> 00:25:19,990 Speaker 1: I did just this year? I went to a class 407 00:25:20,090 --> 00:25:24,480 Speaker 1: on domestic violence from a nurse at the local shelter here. 408 00:25:25,020 --> 00:25:27,680 Speaker 1: It's called the Shelter for Abused Women and Children that 409 00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:31,660 Speaker 1: I'm also on the board of trustees on. They, they're 410 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:35,340 Speaker 1: a wonderful organization here. And I went to this class 411 00:25:36,300 --> 00:25:40,240 Speaker 1: and she looked at everybody in the class and she says, 412 00:25:40,650 --> 00:25:44,369 Speaker 1: can you tell me what is not on the power 413 00:25:44,430 --> 00:25:49,570 Speaker 1: and control wheel? I looked and I said, what's not 414 00:25:49,770 --> 00:25:53,369 Speaker 1: on there? Nobody had an answer. Not one of the 415 00:25:53,369 --> 00:25:56,410 Speaker 1: 30 people that were in this classroom. And then she said, 416 00:25:57,150 --> 00:26:03,050 Speaker 1: cheating and strangulation. is not on the power and control wheel. 417 00:26:03,650 --> 00:26:06,410 Speaker 1: And I thought, oh my God, that is so interesting 418 00:26:06,730 --> 00:26:10,200 Speaker 1: because those are two things that I added to my 419 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:13,880 Speaker 1: book before I even realized that they were not even 420 00:26:13,980 --> 00:26:15,040 Speaker 1: on the power and control wheel. 421 00:26:15,940 --> 00:26:16,200 Speaker 3: Wow. 422 00:26:16,700 --> 00:26:21,100 Speaker 1: Right. Yeah. So cheating is a very, I mean, that 423 00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:24,480 Speaker 1: is one of the things that a lot of victims 424 00:26:24,540 --> 00:26:27,740 Speaker 1: that I have talked to, gosh, maybe 99.9% of them 425 00:26:27,780 --> 00:26:28,300 Speaker 1: have been cheated on. 426 00:26:31,550 --> 00:26:34,870 Speaker 2: Because it puts them in that position of feeling inferior 427 00:26:35,350 --> 00:26:38,510 Speaker 2: and then wanting to always be checking on them. So 428 00:26:38,590 --> 00:26:42,620 Speaker 2: it's sort of the reverse. It is such a power play, 429 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:45,800 Speaker 2: such a manipulative piece of it. 430 00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:51,920 Speaker 1: Absolutely. And then the things that I've learned from victims 431 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:56,909 Speaker 1: that are the same, it's the hope, the shame, and 432 00:26:56,930 --> 00:27:00,119 Speaker 1: the fear. Yes, absolutely. Hope that things are going to 433 00:27:00,140 --> 00:27:03,010 Speaker 1: get better like they used to be when they were great. Well, 434 00:27:03,170 --> 00:27:06,470 Speaker 1: at the beginning of their relationship, when everything was charming, wonderful. And, 435 00:27:06,490 --> 00:27:10,490 Speaker 1: you know, the shame, like you were saying earlier, the 436 00:27:10,530 --> 00:27:13,490 Speaker 1: shame of not wanting anybody to know, not your best friend, 437 00:27:13,510 --> 00:27:16,960 Speaker 1: not a family member. And then the fear, the fear 438 00:27:17,060 --> 00:27:20,180 Speaker 1: of the unknown. Where am I going to go? Especially 439 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:24,280 Speaker 1: if they have children. Right. You know, so that fear 440 00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:28,680 Speaker 1: is real. And they are the only ones that know 441 00:27:28,859 --> 00:27:34,480 Speaker 1: how dangerous their abuser really is. You know, we can 442 00:27:34,540 --> 00:27:37,620 Speaker 1: be there, we can be supportive, we can do all 443 00:27:37,660 --> 00:27:40,570 Speaker 1: those things, but it is truly up to them to 444 00:27:41,810 --> 00:27:46,209 Speaker 1: find that safe time and space to leave. So I 445 00:27:46,270 --> 00:27:49,129 Speaker 1: always say, call your local shelter, put a safety plan 446 00:27:49,190 --> 00:27:52,410 Speaker 1: together because you need that because victims are in more 447 00:27:52,430 --> 00:27:54,510 Speaker 1: danger when they leave a situation. Right. 448 00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:58,399 Speaker 2: So you say that abusers don't show up on the 449 00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:02,260 Speaker 2: first date and punch you. They can be charming, bring 450 00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:04,909 Speaker 2: flowers to the parents and promise to take care of 451 00:28:04,950 --> 00:28:08,129 Speaker 2: their daughter. So was OJ as good at winning over 452 00:28:08,990 --> 00:28:11,429 Speaker 2: your family as he was at winning over the public? 453 00:28:12,750 --> 00:28:16,560 Speaker 1: My family loved him. I mean, 17 years in someone's family, 454 00:28:16,580 --> 00:28:22,580 Speaker 1: they are family. And you never, ever believe that somebody 455 00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:26,460 Speaker 1: could take the life of a family member. I just, 456 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:32,939 Speaker 1: it's just something so unthinkable that you just never believe 457 00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:36,780 Speaker 1: that somebody could do something so horrific. And, you know, 458 00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:40,950 Speaker 1: I mean, you didn't, what I had seen, what I 459 00:28:40,990 --> 00:28:44,330 Speaker 1: want people to remember though, when I saw these things, 460 00:28:44,670 --> 00:28:47,930 Speaker 1: they weren't every day. I didn't live with Nicole. I 461 00:28:47,970 --> 00:28:51,170 Speaker 1: didn't know what was happening behind closed doors until after 462 00:28:51,230 --> 00:28:55,310 Speaker 1: Nicole was murdered, until we started reading her notes and diaries. 463 00:28:56,100 --> 00:29:01,200 Speaker 1: That's when I realized all the things that Nicole had 464 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:06,229 Speaker 1: fallen victim to. And up until then, I thought they 465 00:29:06,270 --> 00:29:10,590 Speaker 1: were isolated incidences. And that's the mistake I don't want 466 00:29:10,650 --> 00:29:13,330 Speaker 1: people to make. I don't want them to make the 467 00:29:13,390 --> 00:29:16,350 Speaker 1: same mistake that I did. Why don't you just leave? 468 00:29:16,770 --> 00:29:20,469 Speaker 1: Get out of this situation. Divorce the SOB. Why are 469 00:29:20,510 --> 00:29:24,710 Speaker 1: you doing this? You know, all those things. or exactly 470 00:29:24,770 --> 00:29:28,920 Speaker 1: what he was doing, controlling her, telling her what to do, 471 00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:33,470 Speaker 1: you know? So I just, that's why the support, to 472 00:29:33,490 --> 00:29:36,340 Speaker 1: be supportive and learn about domestic violence. You know, the 473 00:29:36,390 --> 00:29:40,280 Speaker 1: right things to say. Yes. Anybody needs to understand that. Yes. 474 00:29:40,300 --> 00:29:40,600 Speaker 2: Yes. 475 00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:44,700 Speaker 1: You know, you have the right to be safe, to 476 00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:49,380 Speaker 1: be loved, to be respected. Like the book title, Love 477 00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:50,100 Speaker 1: Shouldn't Hurt. 478 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:53,469 Speaker 2: There is so much more to my conversation with Denise 479 00:29:53,510 --> 00:29:56,300 Speaker 2: Brown today. Please join us next time when we're back 480 00:29:56,340 --> 00:30:00,280 Speaker 2: with more of Denise's deeply personal story of her sister, Nicole, 481 00:30:01,030 --> 00:30:03,570 Speaker 2: what she learned after her death, and the work that 482 00:30:03,610 --> 00:30:05,100 Speaker 2: has become her life's mission.