Speaker 1: Holy Human with Leanne Rhymes is a production of I
Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Welcome everyone to this special episode of Holy Human.
Speaker 1: You know this episode might feel like grabbing a cup
Speaker 1: of tea with a good friend, because that is how
Speaker 1: I always feel when I connect with the warm, wise
Speaker 1: and beautiful Kate Horsemen. In addition to being an integrative
Speaker 1: nutritionist and healer specializing in mind, body, and soul wellness,
Speaker 1: Kate is also a very close friend and I am
Speaker 1: so happy she's joining us today on Holy Human. Yeah Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm doing okay. Yeah. Do you feel that today too?
Speaker 1: You're like, I'm doing all right. By the way, I'm
Speaker 1: just gonna let everyone know this will be a completely
Speaker 1: probably different vibe than most of the podcast because Kate
Speaker 1: is a dear friend of mine and I just thought
Speaker 1: we would see where this takes us. I have questions,
Speaker 1: but just from that, I'm doing okay. Um. It's been
Speaker 1: really interesting because I'm about to go out and start
Speaker 1: performing on Friday. I've been sitting here before our conversation
Speaker 1: in complete terror. I mean, I haven't not been on
Speaker 1: stage and like my whole life basically, but like for
Speaker 1: sixteen months like this and a stretch of time and
Speaker 1: it's been really heavy. I think a lot of people
Speaker 1: might be able to relate to that because we've all
Speaker 1: been kind of bundled up in our cozy little world
Speaker 1: for so long, and there's a lot of fear coming
Speaker 1: up for a lot of people at this moment. Well,
Speaker 1: I was wondering, and you know, maybe this little present itself.
Speaker 1: But part of that fear is that I am fundamentally
Speaker 1: different now and I've gone through this period of growth
Speaker 1: and change, some of what I probably didn't want to
Speaker 1: go through, some of what I've grieved, And so now,
Speaker 1: how how does this person integrate into those other roles? Yeah?
Speaker 1: How do we how do we stay authentic to where
Speaker 1: we are in this place? Part of the growth for
Speaker 1: me right now is, you know, as a performer, I
Speaker 1: can go on stage and literally like I can cut
Speaker 1: myself off from myself onto of all the fear and
Speaker 1: all the things and still walk on stage and do
Speaker 1: what I need to do. And right now is giving
Speaker 1: me this opportunity to to include all of me and
Speaker 1: the fear and and at all. And I think, you know,
Speaker 1: that's been such a huge part of my practice, as
Speaker 1: to include all of myself. I feel like I'm doing
Speaker 1: myself such an injustice if I don't take this moment
Speaker 1: to include all of me. And I think that's actually
Speaker 1: why I'm talking about this right now, because I was
Speaker 1: frozen and I felt like I have to start here
Speaker 1: because I feel like I have to include all of
Speaker 1: myself in this conversation, and that was just something I
Speaker 1: wanted to name. Yeah, I'm so glad that you mean that.
Speaker 1: I mean that gives people permission to to address it
Speaker 1: and in claim it in themselves, right, I mean, it
Speaker 1: helps me so everyone. This is my beautiful friend, Kate Horseman.
Speaker 1: Kate and I met through a friend of ours, a
Speaker 1: dear friend, Kylie, and Kylie thought that we shouldn't meet,
Speaker 1: and but there are very few people that I let
Speaker 1: into my world intimately and so quickly, and You've been
Speaker 1: one of those people. And I'm so grateful for you
Speaker 1: who had talent really young and started in a profession
Speaker 1: and had that talent cultivated very young. And it's just
Speaker 1: not something that I've run into very often, and so
Speaker 1: you and I've connected in a way that it is unique,
Speaker 1: and I'm so so grateful, and I would love for
Speaker 1: people to know a bit of your back story of
Speaker 1: what I'm speaking of because you were you are a
Speaker 1: prima ballerina right from the time where yeah, well yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean the the end wasn't as graceful as as that,
Speaker 1: as as being as being a prima ballerina for certain,
Speaker 1: but yes, and I just want to named too that
Speaker 1: one of the things that I've noticed in our conversations
Speaker 1: is that I feel less alone, and that there's so
Speaker 1: many parts of me, especially the young parts of me,
Speaker 1: that I haven't allowed I haven't been able to swim
Speaker 1: in that like pool of my heart space with and
Speaker 1: I just feel so grateful that we've been able to
Speaker 1: connect in that way. And at many points I think
Speaker 1: I've said, you know, I just wish me, I wish
Speaker 1: we could have known each other then, I know, but
Speaker 1: here we are. Yeah. So yeah. I entered into dance
Speaker 1: and ballet very very very young. I was three years
Speaker 1: old when I started. Presumably I had a passion and
Speaker 1: an interest for it, so I don't I don't really recall.
Speaker 1: I know that that must have been the case, but
Speaker 1: pretty early on when I started training, there was a
Speaker 1: talent that was noticed um and that started to cultivate.
Speaker 1: I would say that prior to age nine, that life
Speaker 1: looked a little bit more leisurely, you know, it looked
Speaker 1: like more recreational dance and play. But by the time
Speaker 1: I reached nine, there was this shift when I was
Speaker 1: scouted by the National Ballet School of Canada and ultimately
Speaker 1: then went to train with them for a summer um.
Speaker 1: I was so terribly homesick because at that point in
Speaker 1: training they had some different philosophies about how to hone
Speaker 1: these skills. And you're in a dorm and you don't
Speaker 1: have a phone. I think they don't like, you're allowed
Speaker 1: to write home the first week. The second week, I
Speaker 1: think you're allowed to phone home. And then yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's intense. Yeah. So there were these sort of behavioral
Speaker 1: modification things that happened, and I was a child that
Speaker 1: actually had a really hard time communicating and expressing my feelings,
Speaker 1: and I felt a lot like my God, I actually
Speaker 1: I have not realized up until this year how much
Speaker 1: I feel. And I'm giving myself that permission. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: completely understand that, and that's so interesting, the feeling piece
Speaker 1: of it. I am Eddie and I did a wilderness
Speaker 1: survival training. It was two days, forty hours, was sixteen
Speaker 1: hour training and it was so intense that I had
Speaker 1: to walk out of the room a couple of times
Speaker 1: and meditate and breathe because we were talking about blood
Speaker 1: and broken bones and like all these different scenarios would
Speaker 1: put you in And it was good for me because
Speaker 1: I was like, Okay, if I have to deal with this,
Speaker 1: you know, in all my sensitivities, I'm gonna have to.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna have to know what to do. But I
Speaker 1: realized over those two days how much I feel. Not
Speaker 1: that I didn't know, but I really know now. And
Speaker 1: it's taken like all this time, you know, my whole
Speaker 1: life basically to come up against Oh wow, I'm really
Speaker 1: that sensitive. Yeah, and not giving ourselves the permission or
Speaker 1: you know, I'm sure we each individually and probably together
Speaker 1: and collectively have you know, these these reasons why, but
Speaker 1: we've had to distance ourselves from those feelings. And I
Speaker 1: actually think during the pandemic there's been this interesting opportunity
Speaker 1: to get a little more still, examine a little bit more,
Speaker 1: and deepened into that permission. I think it's I think
Speaker 1: it's an invitation. I don't think necessarily everyone chooses to
Speaker 1: take that invitation. But I think I'm finally at a
Speaker 1: place where I know I'm getting to know that I
Speaker 1: have the capacity to be with those feelings, I know
Speaker 1: what to do with those feelings, and when I don't,
Speaker 1: then then what is there to discover too? I would
Speaker 1: say that those feelings of being so young and so
Speaker 1: lonely really were a catalyst to really turn inwards, but
Speaker 1: not in a way that was introspective, in a way
Speaker 1: that was really self destructive and self self abandoning. And
Speaker 1: that's when I would say there was some energies that
Speaker 1: play within me that started started to take a turn
Speaker 1: or dance didn't feel necessarily like the safest or the
Speaker 1: healthiest thing. So I've changed some of my tune on that,
Speaker 1: which maybe we'll get to. Yeah, yeah, how has that
Speaker 1: changed for you? Well? I think one of the stories
Speaker 1: that I had to claim, and it's not that it
Speaker 1: wasn't an accurate one, but was that dance could be
Speaker 1: something that was to blame within this, within this sort
Speaker 1: of collapse and breakdown of what I experienced and recently
Speaker 1: recently being my last I guess if I were ten
Speaker 1: years being in a more embodied version of myself claiming
Speaker 1: pieces of myself back, I realized that probably was absolute
Speaker 1: blessing that I had dance and that I had that
Speaker 1: sense of focus, because it was actually probably one of
Speaker 1: the only ways that I could express all the chaos
Speaker 1: that was going on in my life. What I couldn't
Speaker 1: speak of the things that I've been through, the things
Speaker 1: that I was experiencing. They had a conduit through movement,
Speaker 1: and I actually now note that some of the years,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm jumping ahead of it, but where I
Speaker 1: was really in my struggle and in disorder, they were
Speaker 1: unsupported by the fact that I didn't move. Oh, so
Speaker 1: like I had to reject it, and I think probably
Speaker 1: at that moment in time that was was the place
Speaker 1: where I could go, where like the rejection of that
Speaker 1: movement was what my psyche needed in order to start
Speaker 1: to heal. But at the same time, I didn't have
Speaker 1: still the capacity or just the internal capacity to explore
Speaker 1: my feelings, and dance allowed me to have that. So yeah,
Speaker 1: I think it's just really interesting to to look at
Speaker 1: the layers of it. And I still feel like I'm
Speaker 1: entering into different relationships with it, and and and spoiler alert,
Speaker 1: like I feel like I feel like I need to
Speaker 1: dance again in some capacity just just for myself. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean I think that our soul mine has always
Speaker 1: been my singing voice years has been movement. You know,
Speaker 1: our soul wants to speak and in what way? What's
Speaker 1: the catalyst? You know, like what is and that could
Speaker 1: be anything. It doesn't have to be art, like people's
Speaker 1: soul wants to speak through through anything. But I think
Speaker 1: the interesting piece you know when you talk about dance
Speaker 1: being joyful and playful, right, and music for me was
Speaker 1: was joyful and playful, and then it became a job
Speaker 1: and we get lost in so many things, the perfectionism
Speaker 1: of things, the expectations of others upon you know, that
Speaker 1: which we're sharing our soul, and it can become soul less.
Speaker 1: Something that was once the catalyst for expression can become
Speaker 1: just another thing we do. Yeah, it's like it's like
Speaker 1: you disconnect from yourself. And again I'm curious how maybe
Speaker 1: being in a more embodied version of myself have claimed
Speaker 1: some of those pieces back. But I still think, I
Speaker 1: still think that there's more because that expression got stunted.
Speaker 1: M How old were you when you started to experience
Speaker 1: because you you experienced in or X from a fairly
Speaker 1: early age. Yet yeah, I was probably twelve years old
Speaker 1: when I was actively in my eating disorder. But I
Speaker 1: would say that, you know, during the years of maybe not,
Speaker 1: but like here here's me like pushing it under the ruck.
Speaker 1: I actively had an eating disorder and I actively continued
Speaker 1: to train and dance, and there was you know, no no,
Speaker 1: no problem with no awareness. Right, the awareness is internally.
Speaker 1: I think there was a lot of awareness externally, um,
Speaker 1: but it was acceptable. So I think by the age
Speaker 1: of like twelve, thirteen fourteen, it was starting to take
Speaker 1: on that energy of being a career where I felt
Speaker 1: like I was more becoming an expectation or a commodity.
Speaker 1: So we'll go back and forth with training either in
Speaker 1: Toronto or Winnipeg. And then my goal was ultimately York
Speaker 1: and I started going to e BT and school. American
Speaker 1: Ballet was like my dream school because I wanted to
Speaker 1: be a dance with New York City Ballet. I'm kind
Speaker 1: of fast forwarding here, but those were the moments where
Speaker 1: they should have been like the most joy filled, you know,
Speaker 1: expression on my dance. I was at my absolute peak
Speaker 1: in my in my physical body um or in my expression.
Speaker 1: I should say my physical body was rapidly declining. But
Speaker 1: I know that I seemed probably like a ghost on stage.
Speaker 1: I remember someone coming up to me, and I actually
Speaker 1: felt it felt so horrendous. They said, you just don't
Speaker 1: you don't use there's nothing to your face anymore, you
Speaker 1: don't smile, you don't And I thought, like, you're actually
Speaker 1: not seeing like what what I'm going through. I'm just
Speaker 1: another another version of a like a commodity that you're expecting.
Speaker 1: So you're not only dismissing the fact that I'm clearly struggling,
Speaker 1: but there's still this expectation on what it's supposed to
Speaker 1: look like. Yeah, it's still kind of remarkable to me.
Speaker 1: How how that all happened? I think again, I just
Speaker 1: felt so limited in my possibilities. I was so deep
Speaker 1: and and despondent in my shame that I didn't feel
Speaker 1: like there were many choices. And ultimately, when the prospect
Speaker 1: was to be with New York City Ballet, they told
Speaker 1: me that I would have to gain weight in order
Speaker 1: to stay and to make it in the company. And
Speaker 1: I walked away, Old, are you then eighteen? And so
Speaker 1: fast forward? Not to fast forward from that, but to
Speaker 1: the work that you do now? How would you describe
Speaker 1: the work that you do. I think the closest way
Speaker 1: that I can describe it is that I work as
Speaker 1: an integrative healing practitioner. I use different modalities that I
Speaker 1: weave together. I want to create a framework basket that
Speaker 1: supports and contains, and so that has meant for me
Speaker 1: continuing my education as a counselor the building in that
Speaker 1: neutral Asian herbalism UM and now energy work because I
Speaker 1: think that we've really missed the soul heart even in
Speaker 1: like our regular talk therapy. Historically it was meant to
Speaker 1: be a soul conversation. But what I experienced and want
Speaker 1: to know so many experiences that we extrapolate the soul
Speaker 1: from the work. And so my hope is just to
Speaker 1: create a holistic opportunity for any individual that comes to
Speaker 1: me UM to explore that. And I'm grateful to support
Speaker 1: a lot of people that work through their disordered eating
Speaker 1: they have a eating disorder or body image um or
Speaker 1: any mental health issues. Really, what was the decision like
Speaker 1: to step forward into this work for you? Because I
Speaker 1: can imagine that it, yes, is healing. It's a lifelong
Speaker 1: journey right to heal these parts of ourselves. But I'm
Speaker 1: I'm imagining that to help people through disordered eating that
Speaker 1: have some of the same traumas that you have, I'm
Speaker 1: imagining that be incredibly triggering at times. So I wonder
Speaker 1: what was that like, Like, what was that decision like
Speaker 1: to step into this work When I went back to
Speaker 1: school and I was like, Okay, I think this is
Speaker 1: what I'm gonna do. I'm meant to help people. I
Speaker 1: didn't practice at all. I didn't like, I did not
Speaker 1: step into that work. I didn't step into it until
Speaker 1: I went back to school to get for nutrition, until
Speaker 1: I went through a period of a relapse. I did
Speaker 1: not want to go into this work until I felt
Speaker 1: rounded in in the work that I had done, that
Speaker 1: there was a solid enough foundation. I certainly think there's
Speaker 1: possibility for the triggers to be there, but there's a
Speaker 1: certain level of intimacy that I think upholds those boundaries
Speaker 1: that are necessary. I think we all want someone to
Speaker 1: know that we get it. And I literally never felt
Speaker 1: I'm kind of grieving for this, you know, reasonly. I
Speaker 1: don't think I ever felt like I had someone that
Speaker 1: was like, I get what you're going through. And so
Speaker 1: I think that there's an aspect that is just kind
Speaker 1: of sacred in being able to have these conversations with
Speaker 1: people that know that I've gone through it. Do I
Speaker 1: leave my experience at the door? Yeah, but if it
Speaker 1: feels helpful to bring that threat in and leave that
Speaker 1: into our story, great, it's there. Yeah. The work you
Speaker 1: do is I mean, I know just as a friend,
Speaker 1: you're incredibly supportive and present. And we just did a
Speaker 1: breath work session together not long ago, and it's something
Speaker 1: that it's new to you in the way that you've
Speaker 1: been um working with people, and it was probably one
Speaker 1: of the most supportive things I've ever been through in
Speaker 1: that space. And I highly recommend anybody that can book
Speaker 1: a session with Gate do. It's just so I think
Speaker 1: because of everything you've gone through in life, it's given you,
Speaker 1: like you say, the capacity to be with all parts
Speaker 1: of people. And there's so much shame. You know, you
Speaker 1: brought up shame. There's so much shame around our bodies.
Speaker 1: Are body these as women, you know, when I think
Speaker 1: of the word shame, it's like the things that come
Speaker 1: up are you know, sex, body, food, money, like all
Speaker 1: the things. And when you have someone like yourself that
Speaker 1: has gone to those dark places within themselves, you know,
Speaker 1: are the darker places, and has has held your own
Speaker 1: shame in that way. I think it's the capacity that
Speaker 1: you have to hold people just in general is so vast.
Speaker 1: You give people permission to bring all of those pieces
Speaker 1: to the table, and that to me has been the
Speaker 1: most welcoming energy to have in my life, because you're right,
Speaker 1: there's not a lot of people that go, oh, I
Speaker 1: get that. And by the way, all of you is,
Speaker 1: all of you is welcome here. Most of us don't
Speaker 1: know how to welcome all of ourselves, So how can
Speaker 1: we welcome all of the rest of someone else, you know?
Speaker 1: And that's the thing I was just gonna say. I
Speaker 1: think the reason why that's within some of my values
Speaker 1: is because that's what I want m I want to
Speaker 1: be able to be a fullest expression of me and
Speaker 1: for someone not to run away. But that's what we fear.
Speaker 1: We fear that like when we go to pieces, that
Speaker 1: when stuff is dark, or when we're afraid or when
Speaker 1: we're anxious, that it's actually going to drive people away.
Speaker 1: And so so we hold it. People's emotions don't fear me.
Speaker 1: And the more I welcome that, and the more I
Speaker 1: allow that for myself, and on that really powerful note,
Speaker 1: we're going to take a quick break, but we'll be
Speaker 1: right back to dive a little deeper. Welcome back, my friends.
Speaker 1: We are talking with my dear friend Kate Horsemen about
Speaker 1: the very complex emotions that can complicate our help on
Speaker 1: multiple levels. I would love to kind of break down
Speaker 1: shame with you, because shame is I think such a
Speaker 1: I mean, we're all dealing with it on some level,
Speaker 1: and I think there's a lot of shame. I hear it.
Speaker 1: I hear people talking about it, especially surrounding their bodies,
Speaker 1: and it's something that you talk about often. And I
Speaker 1: just was wondering if we could speak to this shame
Speaker 1: piece and like how it affects our emotional health and
Speaker 1: you know, kind of unpacking. I think one of the
Speaker 1: things that we don't necessarily explore with shame is its
Speaker 1: origin story. It happens really really young, It happens so
Speaker 1: so young, and we suddenly wake up with this belief
Speaker 1: that we're not they We're not fundamentally okay, and that
Speaker 1: could be because of many things that can be everything
Speaker 1: from money to sexuality to our bodies that fundamentally that
Speaker 1: this this person that I am inhabiting is not okay
Speaker 1: in the world. It didn't start that way. We learned
Speaker 1: that at some point, and usually because the need wasn't met.
Speaker 1: And um, that's not a place of blame. It's a
Speaker 1: place where likely multiple generations of unmet needs are altamized,
Speaker 1: and we don't talk about it. I think there was
Speaker 1: this I'm not going to quote it perfectly, but there
Speaker 1: was this this note mentioned by Francis Weller, who have
Speaker 1: mentioned before you and I know you're familiar with where
Speaker 1: he said, you can always look where the most repressed
Speaker 1: parts of our society are. You note them because they're
Speaker 1: not being written about, they're not being talked about. I mean,
Speaker 1: me and you can have a conversation around shame. But
Speaker 1: for a lot of people this is off limits. For
Speaker 1: a lot of people, this might actually be the first
Speaker 1: time where they understand. Wait a second, she said that
Speaker 1: we all create shame. What what's my shame? Right? That
Speaker 1: might be a first identification towards me not actually being
Speaker 1: fundamentally wrong. We aren't born with it. We learn it
Speaker 1: at some point, usually really really young, and and we
Speaker 1: can not unlearn it, but we can release it. We
Speaker 1: can learn how to release that shame. An important aspect
Speaker 1: if I'm talking about shame is to note like where
Speaker 1: this also exists within the lines of our culture and
Speaker 1: our society. So this isn't only what's happening in our
Speaker 1: homes it might be, but what we're actually witnessing in
Speaker 1: our world. Right, If if bodies look different than me,
Speaker 1: then something must be wrong with mine. If this person
Speaker 1: is valued, then I must do that to be valued, right,
Speaker 1: which is very narrow. It's very very narrow. And let
Speaker 1: me think of how unique all of us are. There's
Speaker 1: so many versions of humanity, and God, you know, I
Speaker 1: am a white, pretty slim woman, and even I don't
Speaker 1: feel like I fit in most of the time. I
Speaker 1: think that shame that piece of you that says you
Speaker 1: know that something is fundamentally wrong with you. It's real,
Speaker 1: and it's deep. It's a really lonely place to be because,
Speaker 1: like you're saying, that's very isolating. And I feel like
Speaker 1: I've spent a lot of my life trying to avoid
Speaker 1: that feeling. The achievements and the going and the doing
Speaker 1: and the achieving more, and I feel like that those
Speaker 1: pieces for me have if I really think about it,
Speaker 1: it's kept me from feeling the fear of being just normal,
Speaker 1: or the fear of being shamed or being less than.
Speaker 1: I really had to name that for myself because and
Speaker 1: it's it's almost shameful to name it. It's like layers
Speaker 1: and layers of shame. It's like there's something very brave
Speaker 1: about naming these pieces and being really honest about the
Speaker 1: feelings around them, because there's so much shame. Like I said,
Speaker 1: about just naming them. Yeah, it's it's like reaching to
Speaker 1: the farthest corners of the places in your body that
Speaker 1: you've abandoned, bring your soul maybe even bold beyond your body.
Speaker 1: Will you go there and bringing them back? That is
Speaker 1: a courageous act. That is a rebellious act. That's not
Speaker 1: what we're doing or what we haven't been doing, but
Speaker 1: it's probably required of us. And it doesn't mean, you know,
Speaker 1: putting us in into the lane way of danger, but
Speaker 1: it does mean taking a risk on you know, whatever
Speaker 1: the boundaries or edges of ourselves that we've said are
Speaker 1: not worthy. And you know, you you mentioned the avoidance.
Speaker 1: I think that it's really important in looking at shame
Speaker 1: work to know what are the things that distance me
Speaker 1: from these feelings because we do not want to sit
Speaker 1: in shame nor should we. Like that is discomfort, and
Speaker 1: there's a place in time to be with discomfort. And
Speaker 1: it's important to identify, like what are the things that
Speaker 1: try to move me a away from that? And perfectionism
Speaker 1: is actually like a brilliant tactic and I think that
Speaker 1: that's something that we're seeing demonstrated perfectionism. We talked about
Speaker 1: this a little bit yesterday. Performance, Right, those are those
Speaker 1: are ways that we can distance ourselves, not only from
Speaker 1: those feelings, but maybe even from our body, become a
Speaker 1: different version of ourselves, not a version that isn't accurate,
Speaker 1: but it's certainly not full. Well that that performative piece.
Speaker 1: I mean, look, we all have been trained to perform
Speaker 1: on certain levels. I mean you and I are are
Speaker 1: actually you know, performers, and there's a piece of that
Speaker 1: that is beautiful. But I know from my own self,
Speaker 1: like starting so young in performance being such a huge
Speaker 1: part of my life, like there's always been a piece
Speaker 1: of performance and everything that I do. And to the
Speaker 1: extent of recognizing that there's a lot of untruth, I
Speaker 1: guess to name it in that way, There's been a
Speaker 1: lot of untruth in the past to the version of
Speaker 1: me that I felt like I had to be because
Speaker 1: you know, I didn't feel like the authentic me it
Speaker 1: was enough. And so you know, all of these parts
Speaker 1: that I've felt shame around, maybe my my anger or
Speaker 1: my sexuality or you know, all of these kind of
Speaker 1: pieces of me that got pushed to the basement because
Speaker 1: it wasn't it wasn't the version of me that everyone wanted.
Speaker 1: You know, I've felt there's been a lot of shame
Speaker 1: around all of these different, darker pieces of me. And also,
Speaker 1: like I said, the shame around even naming, like, oh,
Speaker 1: I wasn't really honest about who I was because it
Speaker 1: wasn't welcome. I didn't feel like it was welcome, and
Speaker 1: that that authenticity has there's so many layers to that
Speaker 1: and more and more I'm stepping into the truth of
Speaker 1: who I am and that it's really powerful. It's really
Speaker 1: powerful to to step out of that shame. But I
Speaker 1: think in that so so much of us gets frozen
Speaker 1: in time, like in this this kind of feeling of
Speaker 1: shame and and freeze and and heaviness. Like to me,
Speaker 1: shame feels really heavy, and you know, maybe this is
Speaker 1: like an invitation for anyone that's listening to is to
Speaker 1: notice where you feel shame, Like what does that feel like?
Speaker 1: You know, like there was definitely a point in my
Speaker 1: life where I was like, how how does this feel?
Speaker 1: My body? No way so so so cut off, but
Speaker 1: being a little bit in right relationship with Oh, these
Speaker 1: are the sensations. I don't have to stick around here.
Speaker 1: I don't have to stay here, but I'm gonna try
Speaker 1: and get to know them right, build like a little
Speaker 1: bit of a bridge back and forth to build that
Speaker 1: that friendship, to to allow that welcoming back. And you know, Lee,
Speaker 1: as you're talking, I'm like thinking of you performing this week,
Speaker 1: It's like, oh, well, welcome her. I heard you say,
Speaker 1: like that part of me wasn't welcome or there was
Speaker 1: part of me that didn't feel welcome. Can I now
Speaker 1: be that for myself? And we might not feel that fully,
Speaker 1: but sometimes I think we actually have to practice it
Speaker 1: to get there. We can't think our way out of things.
Speaker 1: Sometimes we just have to embody it and give ourselves
Speaker 1: the permission to say, no, I'm going to belong here.
Speaker 1: I'm going to belong here in this moment. I'm going
Speaker 1: to see how it feels m hm. He's just saying
Speaker 1: that it is very triggering for me. In so many ways,
Speaker 1: the belonging has felt at least personally, the to belong
Speaker 1: has meant to be there's been a certain version of
Speaker 1: me that can belong, especially on stage. Like there's I
Speaker 1: think right before all of this stuff happens of the
Speaker 1: last like probably two or three years of me performing,
Speaker 1: there was more of this kind of vast fullness of
Speaker 1: me on stage and it felt really good. It felt
Speaker 1: like I was really fully allowing my humanity and performing
Speaker 1: at the same time not having to cut off from myself,
Speaker 1: and that the belonging within that felt really good. And
Speaker 1: now it's almost like I'm having to feel my way
Speaker 1: back into allowing myself to fully belong on stage. I
Speaker 1: think it's easier to cut myself off sometimes because therein
Speaker 1: lies my avoidance of the shame. Like if I can
Speaker 1: be perfect and great on stage and I don't mess up,
Speaker 1: then I avoid feeling shame. And I know for myself,
Speaker 1: like there can be so much fear around especially performances actually,
Speaker 1: like on TV, because you know everybody goes on social
Speaker 1: media afterwards and like they all have their own like
Speaker 1: conversations around what just happened. There can be so much
Speaker 1: fear going into that because of oh I just want
Speaker 1: I just want to avoid being shamed or being less than.
Speaker 1: It's amazing the of the avoidance that plays into to
Speaker 1: this shame piece for so many people, Like I would
Speaker 1: love for people to think about like what little space
Speaker 1: we take up, you know, because I feel like, look,
Speaker 1: I've taken up a lot of space in this world before,
Speaker 1: and I still feel like I'm playing small and I
Speaker 1: think shame is one of those Shame is the thing
Speaker 1: keeps us playing small? Yeah, I mean that's why I
Speaker 1: tried to disappear. Yeah, yeah, yeah, And it certainly doesn't
Speaker 1: have to look physical by any means. That was my manifestation,
Speaker 1: but yeah, it keeps us small. All right. When we
Speaker 1: come back, we're going to talk about all the shifty
Speaker 1: ways that shame shows up and sidelines are well being
Speaker 1: Welcome back, my loves. I am talking with my dear
Speaker 1: friend Kate Horseman about the ultimate shape shifter shame. How
Speaker 1: can that manifest for people? Like? What is you know,
Speaker 1: like you're saying, for you it was physical? What other
Speaker 1: ways can that manifest? I think it can keep us
Speaker 1: from intimacy, not only friendships, but you know, romantic relationships.
Speaker 1: I absolutely was incapable of being in intimacy in my twenties.
Speaker 1: Even though I was in that recovered space, I was
Speaker 1: still very much still in the shame, right. So I
Speaker 1: think it's a way that we we create a wall,
Speaker 1: because again, what would happen if someone actually saw me?
Speaker 1: And I'll go further on that, but believe, when you
Speaker 1: were talking, one thing I wanted to say was a
Speaker 1: friend of mine's Koni. He says to me, people deserve
Speaker 1: to know you and I and I think about you,
Speaker 1: and man, how much you give and that slowness that
Speaker 1: you're speaking of, you know, probably doesn't even necessarily translate
Speaker 1: to what you do on stage. It's just just internally,
Speaker 1: but we all you know, I want, I want to
Speaker 1: know the fullest version of you. What an absolute blessing,
Speaker 1: what a gift. Yeah, I'm still learning the fullest version
Speaker 1: of me. I'm still getting to know that. I think
Speaker 1: that the beautiful dance that I'm having with myself at
Speaker 1: this moment is getting is allowing myself to actually for
Speaker 1: me to know the fullest version of me. It's so
Speaker 1: easy to hide from yourself it really is. And until
Speaker 1: we know, until we allow ourselves to know the fullest
Speaker 1: version of us, like that can't really spill over into
Speaker 1: our lives. And that's a new way of being. It's
Speaker 1: a it's a brave way of being. And you know,
Speaker 1: I think it's important in these types of conversations where
Speaker 1: we're talking about stuff that's heavy. It's just also not
Speaker 1: to romanticize it, you know. I know I at times
Speaker 1: kind of speak poetically about like this downfall, which was
Speaker 1: pretty extreme. My fault was as as great as might
Speaker 1: come back. Right, So, um, I don't want to romanticize
Speaker 1: it because I think people need to know that it
Speaker 1: has work, and it has grit to it, and it's
Speaker 1: okay to take breaks in it. It's okay too for
Speaker 1: this to be absolutely only about your exploration and not
Speaker 1: about how others perceive you, know, that different version of you,
Speaker 1: only only yourself. Um. For one reason or another, I
Speaker 1: wanted to say. I was talking to a client the
Speaker 1: other day and we're talking about this idea of allowing
Speaker 1: things just to be a bit easier, Like can we
Speaker 1: actually give ourselves a permission to like let life, let
Speaker 1: the emotions, let whatever is there just be easy, and
Speaker 1: I've come up against some resistance, and I think what
Speaker 1: I was able to articulate was, you know, there's those
Speaker 1: people who can actually just brush things off and laugh
Speaker 1: about it. I can't not yet, because it wasn't funny
Speaker 1: for me when I was in survival. It was never
Speaker 1: easy when I was in survival. So I'm just learning
Speaker 1: again how I might even fathom laughing something off right.
Speaker 1: I totally understand that completely. I mean, you and I
Speaker 1: talk a lot about our inner children and like coming
Speaker 1: home to them and stepping into joy more. This is
Speaker 1: what we converse about when we talk about privately. But
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people can relate to that,
Speaker 1: you know, as as performers so young, but I think
Speaker 1: a lot of people parentified children, people have, you know,
Speaker 1: children of abuse. Energetically, I feel like I've learned to
Speaker 1: hang out in a different realm of sometimes limited possibility
Speaker 1: when it comes to emotions, um, where joy wasn't actually
Speaker 1: like in my reach. The innocence of myself, the playfulness
Speaker 1: of myself wasn't in my reach. And I'm glad you're
Speaker 1: sharing that because I think that that is real for
Speaker 1: a lot of people. Some people haven't had to experience
Speaker 1: trauma so deeply and so and that's wonderful and I'm
Speaker 1: so glad that people have that experience. I know a
Speaker 1: lot of my journey recently has been coming home to
Speaker 1: this little piece of me, to my innocence, to the joy.
Speaker 1: And I know that's been a lot of your journey
Speaker 1: too when it comes to that piece. What has been
Speaker 1: supportive for you in actually coming home to your innocence,
Speaker 1: coming home to joy as a new experience, to to
Speaker 1: actually like exist more in that realm instead of the
Speaker 1: realm of trauma. I feel like one of the first
Speaker 1: things that comes to minds is patients, because I think, again,
Speaker 1: being that the joy wasn't or isn't always that as accessible,
Speaker 1: I sometimes get caught in this judgment of like, why
Speaker 1: can't right now be easy? It's like, because you're learning
Speaker 1: how to do things differently, and before if you did
Speaker 1: things easily, maybe you're actually in danger. Right Yes, So
Speaker 1: I think having patients is a big part of it.
Speaker 1: I think any and all embodied practices where like I
Speaker 1: could actually be in stand the feelings that are there
Speaker 1: because when we're children, we actually usually have much more
Speaker 1: ability to have that freedom in our body. So I
Speaker 1: think that there's something about embodied practices, even something like
Speaker 1: dance or exercise or a breathing that actually just reconnects
Speaker 1: us back to that core person, that that soul, as
Speaker 1: opposed to the layers that are layered onto that soul.
Speaker 1: So I think, I think those are a few ways.
Speaker 1: And I always say it, and I always worry that
Speaker 1: it's like it's just another word, but it's compassion. It's
Speaker 1: like two pillars of my work is curiosity and compassion.
Speaker 1: If we can meet ourselves with that, I think that
Speaker 1: we're going to shift a lot of things. And so
Speaker 1: that compassion is just like a deep claiming of everything
Speaker 1: that is there, and in doing so, it creates space
Speaker 1: for the possibility that maybe joy can exist then maybe
Speaker 1: plays in there that I can afford myself to permission.
Speaker 1: Right when our nervous system is you know this, like
Speaker 1: you know, so activated, we're not gonna be able to
Speaker 1: access freedom in that spot. It's only when when we
Speaker 1: when we're brought down. And I think that that's what
Speaker 1: compassion does, is it brings us back down to a
Speaker 1: neutral playing field where we can maybe navigate what we
Speaker 1: want to do with the rest of that expenditure. Mm hmm.
Speaker 1: You've talked recently on your Instagram page about like affirmations
Speaker 1: and bringing what if then to our affirmations. I've heard
Speaker 1: so much about people sometimes they're like affirmations don't work
Speaker 1: and they're so stupid. And I've kind of been on
Speaker 1: that side of the fence before, like oh, this is
Speaker 1: so dumb, like I don't believe what I'm saying. And
Speaker 1: that was what was so interesting about the what if
Speaker 1: for me that you brought in was like it brings
Speaker 1: in possibility. Yeah. I was wondering because you just kind
Speaker 1: of touched on that a little bit of like you know,
Speaker 1: the compassion peace, giving ourselves compassion and brings in that
Speaker 1: that a new possibility. And I think this what if
Speaker 1: peace when it comes to affirmations for people who use them,
Speaker 1: or maybe if you've like shunned them in and like
Speaker 1: this does work for me, maybe now this is a
Speaker 1: new way to work with them if you just speak
Speaker 1: to that a little bit. Yeah, I'd love to. I'd
Speaker 1: love to. Yeah. And I actually thought it was just
Speaker 1: another way that there was something wrong with me that
Speaker 1: I didn't like affirmations right totally. You know, like this
Speaker 1: doesn't work for me, and there's exactly and it's all
Speaker 1: my faults. It's making me worse. I am actually fundamentally
Speaker 1: wrong because I can't even say these affirmations right. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I always had that bad feeling. I think in that
Speaker 1: post what I said was like, I feel the same
Speaker 1: way about you should love your body or I love
Speaker 1: my body as much as you should smile. It holds
Speaker 1: the same charge, like it just doesn't feel like something
Speaker 1: that's appropriate. And of course not to say that if
Speaker 1: you don't feel those ways about about yourself, like full
Speaker 1: permission to claim to claim that love right, that is yours.
Speaker 1: But I think for a lot of people when we
Speaker 1: hear the affirmations, we just question if it's really true
Speaker 1: that part of our shame filled you know center is
Speaker 1: like Nope, that doesn't add up, that doesn't belong, that's
Speaker 1: not you. And so we rejected, and we rejected, and
Speaker 1: then again we judge ourselves for having to reject it.
Speaker 1: And so I've just been going off the curiosity piece. Also,
Speaker 1: it's curiosity as a question mark. I'm far more committed
Speaker 1: to creating like a question mark behind things. So maybe
Speaker 1: if you're struggling with affirmations, put a question mark behind it.
Speaker 1: It changes the tone of our voice. It says, is
Speaker 1: that true? But the idea is with affirmations that you know,
Speaker 1: if we place a what if beforehand, and I actually
Speaker 1: in retrospect thinking that it's not only for affirmations, but
Speaker 1: also for the negative narrative in our mind. If we
Speaker 1: place that the what if, they're too we might be
Speaker 1: challenging it just as much. So classic affirmation is I
Speaker 1: am I am beautiful, I I love myself and that's
Speaker 1: like a far distant reaching place for me. And what
Speaker 1: would change within that is what if I am beautiful?
Speaker 1: What if I can love myself? There's just a different resonance,
Speaker 1: a different charge in the body that says, you know what,
Speaker 1: I'm actually gonna let this bypass the nervous system. You can,
Speaker 1: you can have it, whereas the other one, I think
Speaker 1: just really activate something and it shuts us down. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of space when you say that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Like I feel more spacious in my own body of
Speaker 1: like what if I am beautiful? What if joy is
Speaker 1: a possibility for me? You know, like what if that could?
Speaker 1: What if joy is my baseline? Yeah? And can you
Speaker 1: imagine like writing about that and like jamming off of
Speaker 1: like what what actually what would that mean? What would
Speaker 1: that mean? Mm hmm. Yeah, you journal a lot, don't you?
Speaker 1: Or you write you right off? Yeah, if you, I do.
Speaker 1: I just questioned a lot of things. I think it's
Speaker 1: been probably one of my greatest practices is to really
Speaker 1: just like ask myself if this is true? Because I
Speaker 1: really believed and still at times do believe everything and
Speaker 1: bits in my mind is true and it's not. You know,
Speaker 1: it's not. I just have to remind myself of that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you're so right on about that. And it's but how
Speaker 1: do we you know there but there are things that
Speaker 1: are true? You know, and it's like how do we
Speaker 1: access how do we go past the mind into what
Speaker 1: have you found? I guess is the truest space for you?
Speaker 1: Like how when you when you are believing all of
Speaker 1: these things are in your mind are true? What has
Speaker 1: been supportive in diving into the place that is truer,
Speaker 1: our truest. Yeah, I mean I think you I'm going
Speaker 1: to feel into that for a second, but I think
Speaker 1: you said something really interesting when I said of what
Speaker 1: it's You're like like I felt more spacious. I felt
Speaker 1: I think being able to run those those thoughts through
Speaker 1: a software in your body, you know, And again maybe
Speaker 1: that takes practice. Maybe we have to heal some some
Speaker 1: body trauma first, Yeah, because I think so many people
Speaker 1: are we are so disconnected from our body. If it
Speaker 1: was two years ago, I wouldn't be able to tell you, oh,
Speaker 1: I felt a lot more space in my body, as
Speaker 1: the body hasn't been it hasn't been a safe place
Speaker 1: for me, and I know a lot of other people
Speaker 1: and so that embodiment takes a while, and therein lies
Speaker 1: your patients. Like for me, this has been the years
Speaker 1: of of work to get to where I feel space
Speaker 1: in my body or feel anything in my body. They
Speaker 1: say the body never lies and it talks to us
Speaker 1: all the time, And I'm like this freaking bodies and
Speaker 1: that talking to me, what are you talking about? Or
Speaker 1: it's telling me like things that are like there's a
Speaker 1: fire in the body, like the alarms are going off,
Speaker 1: and it's actually like, no, the body's fine. That's actually
Speaker 1: just your your thoughts right now that are triggering that effect.
Speaker 1: So it is a complex one and I think that
Speaker 1: it's one probably to move with caution. We're kind of
Speaker 1: in this world in field of awareness where we're talking
Speaker 1: about developing our intuition and just like listen to your gun.
Speaker 1: I'm like, how, how, how how do we do that?
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. But if you are able to stay the course,
Speaker 1: if you are able to hang out in your body
Speaker 1: a little bit longer with those feelings, then I think
Speaker 1: the body can become an ally. I think that it
Speaker 1: can become a tool to really land or to note
Speaker 1: when those places do feel truest, when we do feel
Speaker 1: that opening, that like spark of joy, It's like, oh,
Speaker 1: that's what that feels like. Okay, now I know, now,
Speaker 1: I know. So being aware of the body, maybe it
Speaker 1: is one of the first steps. It might not always
Speaker 1: be the accurate, it might not be full proof, but
Speaker 1: but it's one of the ways. All Right, we are
Speaker 1: going to take a quick break and a quick breath,
Speaker 1: but don't go away. We'll be right hello again. Loves
Speaker 1: Kate was just walking us through the power of adding
Speaker 1: joy and curiosity to our practice. You know, curiosity. I've
Speaker 1: actually had Dr Judd Burr on recently and we were talking.
Speaker 1: One of his biggest pieces is, you know, curiosity and
Speaker 1: getting curious with like genuinely curious and I know for
Speaker 1: myself it took me a while to learn. I know
Speaker 1: I didn't have to learn to be curious, but it
Speaker 1: took me a while to trust curiosity. I think curiosity
Speaker 1: and for me, curiosity and joy and all of those
Speaker 1: feelings are kind of mixed together because, like you were
Speaker 1: saying that, you know, if we've been in survival mode forever,
Speaker 1: like you're not really getting curious in survival mode, right.
Speaker 1: I think one of the biggest pieces for me has been,
Speaker 1: like you're saying, patients, but also learning that now that
Speaker 1: I'm not always in survival mode, when I'm more in
Speaker 1: a thriving kind of space, knowing that I can trust
Speaker 1: that space, learning that I can trust that space, learning
Speaker 1: that I can trust my own curiosity, and these moments
Speaker 1: of joy and even though I I'm not that's not
Speaker 1: where I hang out all the time, I am having
Speaker 1: more of those moments, And I just want everyone to
Speaker 1: hear out there, if you feel like those aren't trustworthy
Speaker 1: just yet or trustable, that it's okay to feel that
Speaker 1: way because in in survival we have we haven't had
Speaker 1: access to those places. And so if you're if you're like,
Speaker 1: what the hell are we talking about right now. It's
Speaker 1: okay too, It's okay to not know absolutely, and that
Speaker 1: might actually be a beautiful place also to start, whether
Speaker 1: you are welcoming and of curiosity or not. Is what
Speaker 1: what does this remind me of? Where where in my
Speaker 1: life the curiosity stop? Because you know, as you're talking
Speaker 1: about curiosity, joy, there was a third one you said,
Speaker 1: But I'm thinking those those belong to leave, those belong
Speaker 1: to you know, those are qualities of our youngest selves,
Speaker 1: because that was our nature. We would want to test
Speaker 1: the waters to learn right, so meeting I suppose the
Speaker 1: youngest parts of ourselves too in in that exploration. I
Speaker 1: love that question. Where did curiosity enjoy and play? When
Speaker 1: did I feel like those were welcome? When did that stop? Yeah?
Speaker 1: And it would be interesting to note how how connected
Speaker 1: those are with any pieces of shame. There's probably something
Speaker 1: there I can think about. I mean, I remember, yeah,
Speaker 1: being really young, and my dad actually often said, you're
Speaker 1: so curious, and I thought it was such a bad thing.
Speaker 1: In retrospect, I know that it wasn't. But I do
Speaker 1: think that there was a long period of my life
Speaker 1: where I actually really identified that that was something fundamentally
Speaker 1: wrong with me. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, I could talk to
Speaker 1: you all day about all this stuff. But thank you
Speaker 1: so much for for joining me and and opening your
Speaker 1: heart to us. It's so vast and beautiful and I'm
Speaker 1: so grateful. I always ask my guests about music, and
Speaker 1: I know, I know you love music so much. When
Speaker 1: we did our breath work sessions, Kate's like, I just
Speaker 1: get to play DJ. This is my favorite part of
Speaker 1: the whole thing, which I love to like, I love
Speaker 1: putting music together for what I breathe. Yeah, I love
Speaker 1: a good playlist, So I I do something called the
Speaker 1: Holy five. So these could be songs like that are
Speaker 1: moving you now, that have moved you throughout your life.
Speaker 1: But just what are your Holy five? And and why
Speaker 1: this is hard? It's hard, right, I know every guest
Speaker 1: is like, oh my god, I spent so much time
Speaker 1: on this. I feel like I could come up with ten,
Speaker 1: but five was hard and also really exciting. The number
Speaker 1: one is everybody wants to rule the world by tears
Speaker 1: for fears. That's such a good one. Yeah. It was
Speaker 1: the first tape that it was given to me. I
Speaker 1: was a little tea. I was six years old. My
Speaker 1: half brother gave that to me, and it was impactful.
Speaker 1: Second one is how to Disappear Completely by Radio Ahead.
Speaker 1: I've never heard that song. I've never heard that title.
Speaker 1: Daryl's looking at me, like what, I've never heard that song.
Speaker 1: I have to go listen just because of the title. Alone. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's amazing. You'll have to take a breath. It has
Speaker 1: been by my side through some moments. Maybe it met
Speaker 1: me in my despair. I'll say that that part of
Speaker 1: me that that felt always alone in those feelings, I
Speaker 1: feel like really was able to connect. That was one
Speaker 1: of the things that you felt new you Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: M Yeah, It's amazing how music can do that right.
Speaker 1: It is amazing and truly some very pivotal moments in
Speaker 1: my life. I I hold music so so close beside it.
Speaker 1: Nobody but You by Charles Bradley No product work, so
Speaker 1: a new one. I don't know that. Yeah, it's a
Speaker 1: good one ever. Mind's men Dan Oh yeah yeah, so
Speaker 1: and I had like an epic one of the best
Speaker 1: content it's in my life Charles Bradley had called Commodore
Speaker 1: in Vancouver. I'm gonna go for a twist. Now this
Speaker 1: is gonna be girls, Girls, Girls by Jay Z it
Speaker 1: like they're either gonna think I'm gonna say Motley Crewe
Speaker 1: or jay Z, but it's jay Z When I'm girls,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna scoop you with that cool singing on us fishing.
Speaker 1: I love it. Oh my god, I love jay Z. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So uh. One that I'm loving right now is Howling
Speaker 1: by Rayax and specifically, um it's a Sophie Tucker remix,
Speaker 1: so it takes it on like a dance element and
Speaker 1: it's like eight minutes long. Oh nice, it's so good. God,
Speaker 1: thank you. I love that song. Thank you for finally
Speaker 1: telling me how to say his name. Ry X. I'm
Speaker 1: like r y X. His voice is so amazing. I love, love,
Speaker 1: love it. I'm gonna have to go look at that version.
Speaker 1: He also has a beautiful album out now Live. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's it's gorgeous. I got the record. Yeah, so oh
Speaker 1: you did? Oh fun? Do you click? Final? Yeah? I
Speaker 1: love it me too a bit, but um yeah, I
Speaker 1: love Final records. They sound so good. Thank you, my love,
Speaker 1: Thank you You're the best, you too. I really appreciate it,
Speaker 1: all right, I love you, And that, my friends, brings
Speaker 1: us to the end of this very cozy, comfortable episode.
Speaker 1: Of Holy Human. Thank you for spending this time with
Speaker 1: Kate and myself, and you know I'd always love to
Speaker 1: hear your thoughts, so please post them in the comments
Speaker 1: wherever you're listening and share this with anyone who could
Speaker 1: use a little more curiosity in their lives. On our
Speaker 1: next Holy Human, I'll be joined by the incredible and
Speaker 1: inspiring force of nature that is Terry Cole. She'll be
Speaker 1: sharing some powerful perspectives on the significant benefits of that
Speaker 1: creating boundaries have on your life and your relationships. And
Speaker 1: trust me, you're going to want to listen to this
Speaker 1: episode until then, keep the faith, keep loving each other,
Speaker 1: and I love you. Holy Human with Me Leanne Rhymes
Speaker 1: is a production of I Heart Radio