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This offer ends January thirty first. 16 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:01,920 Speaker 1: On this episode of Newts World, for Mother's Day, I 17 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:05,280 Speaker 1: invited Coke Roberts to join me to talk about her 18 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:10,000 Speaker 1: wonderful book, Founding Mothers, The Women Who Raised Our Nation. 19 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:13,199 Speaker 1: Cokee and I have known each other for many years. 20 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:16,600 Speaker 1: We first met when I came to Congress and Cokee 21 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:20,479 Speaker 1: covered me for NPR. That was forty one years ago. 22 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:24,320 Speaker 1: In her more than forty years in broadcasting, she's won 23 00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:29,000 Speaker 1: countless awards, including three Emmys. She has also been inducted 24 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:32,319 Speaker 1: into the Broadcasting and Cable Hall of Fame. She is 25 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:36,280 Speaker 1: currently a commentator for Morning Edition one NPR and a 26 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:41,280 Speaker 1: contributor to ABC News. We both share a passion for 27 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:43,800 Speaker 1: the history of the founding of our nation and a 28 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 1: passion for this process of democratic self government. I'm really 29 00:01:48,040 --> 00:02:03,720 Speaker 1: pleased to welcome her as my guest Cookie. It's wonderful 30 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:07,520 Speaker 1: to still be friends after four decades. One of the 31 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:09,520 Speaker 1: things that binds us that most people don't know about 32 00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:13,480 Speaker 1: is that not only is my wife, Callista an ambassador 33 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:16,560 Speaker 1: to the Vatican, but your mother, who was probably the 34 00:02:16,560 --> 00:02:20,440 Speaker 1: most beloved ambassador that the US has sent. When we 35 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:24,799 Speaker 1: talked to people about her, it's just amazing the response 36 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:27,359 Speaker 1: to Lindy Bogg's name, the fact that she came over. 37 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:29,480 Speaker 1: I think she was eighty when she came over. She 38 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 1: broke her leg and went to every reception anyway, and 39 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:36,000 Speaker 1: I think the Pope may have been the same age. 40 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:40,600 Speaker 1: And she and John Paul just got together so beautifully 41 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:43,840 Speaker 1: that literally today we'll go places and people will reminisce. 42 00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:46,799 Speaker 1: So I'm curious as the daughter, what was it I 43 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:49,600 Speaker 1: noticed like as the husband, but as the daughter, what 44 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 1: was it like to go and visit Mom at the Vatican. 45 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:54,720 Speaker 1: First of all, it's a treat to be talking to 46 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:58,959 Speaker 1: you nude, and it was terrific. It was wonderful. First 47 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 1: of all, I love Rome, but secondly, I loved watching 48 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:08,560 Speaker 1: her operate. You know, people feel that political appointments are 49 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:16,239 Speaker 1: not as somehow worthy as foreign service appointments to ambassadorial 50 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:19,480 Speaker 1: post and I'm sure there's some places where that might 51 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:21,800 Speaker 1: be the case, and some people where that might be 52 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:24,440 Speaker 1: the case. But it really made a difference to have 53 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:27,120 Speaker 1: a politician there with my mother. She was the first 54 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:31,040 Speaker 1: woman to be an ambassador to the Vatican, and she 55 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 1: it was, as you well know, such a savvy politician 56 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:38,880 Speaker 1: and such a charming person that she basically just had 57 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:42,360 Speaker 1: them all ready to do pretty much anything she wanted. 58 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:45,360 Speaker 1: And it was an important time because there were some 59 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:48,600 Speaker 1: things coming out of the Vatican that we're not going 60 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:52,040 Speaker 1: to work well for American education, and the fact that 61 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:55,040 Speaker 1: she was there and was able to explain things like 62 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:59,200 Speaker 1: federal funding for higher education made a big difference. But 63 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:03,440 Speaker 1: she Also, as you have learned from others who you've 64 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:07,320 Speaker 1: talked to, she just charmed them. They loved being around her, 65 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:11,120 Speaker 1: as anybody would. You know. It's interesting because as a 66 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:14,840 Speaker 1: two lane graduate, I came to realize that New Orleans 67 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:19,280 Speaker 1: teaches a certain style and a certain approach that's so 68 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:23,679 Speaker 1: very human, and your mom sort of personified that kind 69 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:27,920 Speaker 1: of tradition literally today, even today, people still speak as 70 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:30,720 Speaker 1: though it was only yesterday morning that she was there. 71 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:33,599 Speaker 1: That's nice to hear. That's very nice to hear. She 72 00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 1: loved people, and she loved the church. And the fact 73 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:41,520 Speaker 1: that she was able to have that wonderful appointment in 74 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:44,840 Speaker 1: her eighties where she could have a capstone to a 75 00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:48,279 Speaker 1: career in public service, serving both her country and her church, 76 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:51,960 Speaker 1: it was something that was very very special. So let 77 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 1: me move on to other mothers. Although your mother certainly 78 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:58,520 Speaker 1: was a remarkable and a good example of being a 79 00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:04,239 Speaker 1: patriot and parents simultaneously. But you wrote this remarkable book, 80 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:07,840 Speaker 1: Founding Mothers, which I thought was a very clever insight 81 00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:10,800 Speaker 1: in here a part after all of the Founding Father's stuff. 82 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:14,719 Speaker 1: I'm curious, one, did it strike you that there's a 83 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:18,479 Speaker 1: really very interesting book here and that you ought to 84 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:21,559 Speaker 1: tackle it. Well, you know, in a way, it really 85 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:24,320 Speaker 1: does go back to my mother, because when I was 86 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:27,640 Speaker 1: growing up in Washington, my father was in Congress, and 87 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:31,640 Speaker 1: this was the nineteen fifties, and I saw the tremendous 88 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:37,520 Speaker 1: influence of the congressional wives. This was people like Betty 89 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:42,919 Speaker 1: Ford and Ladybird Johnson and Pauline Gore. They were very, 90 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 1: very involved in politics and very involved in the life 91 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:50,279 Speaker 1: of the community. It was before home rule in Washington, 92 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:53,159 Speaker 1: so they worked with the African American women here to 93 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:58,200 Speaker 1: run all the social service agencies, and they ran campaigns 94 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:02,560 Speaker 1: and voter registration tribes in the conventions and their husband's offices, 95 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:05,440 Speaker 1: and of course they ran us kids, And so I 96 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:09,920 Speaker 1: knew how incredibly influential they were. And of course, as 97 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:13,120 Speaker 1: somebody who's covered Congress and politics as long as I have, 98 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 1: I got to be as you are, on a first 99 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:20,000 Speaker 1: name basis with the founding fathers, because you go back 100 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 1: to them all the time as references, you know, and 101 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:27,279 Speaker 1: as you well know, they are referred to, usually incorrectly. 102 00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 1: You need to see what they actually did say about 103 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:34,000 Speaker 1: religion in the public square, or the right to bear arms, 104 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:36,719 Speaker 1: or why somebody has to be worn in America to 105 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 1: be president, all those things. And as I got to 106 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 1: know that period better and better, I got very curious 107 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:46,600 Speaker 1: about the women of the era, figuring they had to 108 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:49,919 Speaker 1: be at least as influential as the women of my era, 109 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:53,599 Speaker 1: and I went back to read about them and found 110 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 1: I couldn't. With the exception of a couple of good 111 00:06:56,520 --> 00:07:01,120 Speaker 1: biographies of Abigail Adams, there really wasn't an thing there. Now. 112 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:04,280 Speaker 1: In the years since Founding Mothers came out, which was 113 00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:08,200 Speaker 1: two thousand and four, there have been some good biographies 114 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:12,120 Speaker 1: of Dolly Madison and Martha Washington, but that was not 115 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 1: true at the time and still pathetically sparse when it 116 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:19,320 Speaker 1: comes to a lot of the other women. So it 117 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:22,920 Speaker 1: really started me on a career, a whole new career 118 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:26,520 Speaker 1: in my life of writing history. And I followed Founding 119 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:30,360 Speaker 1: Mothers with Ladies of Liberty about the Early Republic, and 120 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 1: then Capital Dames about the Civil War, and now I'm 121 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:37,120 Speaker 1: writing a suffrage book. So these are important times in 122 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:41,960 Speaker 1: our history where women were making a huge contribution and 123 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:46,840 Speaker 1: have been unheralded and unknown, and I just feel like 124 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:50,240 Speaker 1: you can't write an accurate history if you leave out 125 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 1: half of the human race wanted it hit you that 126 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 1: you had found an entire second career. I think it's 127 00:07:56,960 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 1: interesting for people to realize that, you know, life often 128 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:02,600 Speaker 1: occurs from angles you didn't quite expect. So cis from 129 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:05,400 Speaker 1: your standpoint, when did you send you realize, gosh, this 130 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:08,680 Speaker 1: is so interesting and it's so useful that I'm going 131 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:12,040 Speaker 1: to keep being a historian. I know that's that's a 132 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 1: very interesting question, and I can't pinpoint it, of course, 133 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:19,960 Speaker 1: because again it's something that you've done. The fact is 134 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:24,160 Speaker 1: is that people start accepting you into kind of the 135 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:27,240 Speaker 1: world of history, and it gets more and more interesting 136 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 1: as you learn more and more about it. At one point, 137 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:32,880 Speaker 1: before I've ever even written a book, a history book, 138 00:08:32,920 --> 00:08:35,560 Speaker 1: I said to my husband, I said, you know what 139 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:38,240 Speaker 1: I'd really like to do is just sit and read history. 140 00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:40,800 Speaker 1: And he said, well, nobody's going to pay you to 141 00:08:40,920 --> 00:08:43,839 Speaker 1: do that. And that's true. You actually have to write 142 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:46,360 Speaker 1: it after you read it to get paid. But it 143 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:50,320 Speaker 1: is something that I've enjoyed all of my life. But 144 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:54,720 Speaker 1: to really make it a second career really came about 145 00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:59,000 Speaker 1: a little bit slowly, and at first, sort of professional 146 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 1: historians were skeptical of this mere journalists stepping into their turf. 147 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:06,800 Speaker 1: But then as they saw that I really was serious 148 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:11,520 Speaker 1: and that the research was very solid research, I became 149 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:14,360 Speaker 1: more and more part of that community, and I've enjoyed 150 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:19,040 Speaker 1: it enormously. You're terrific on air talent, and your ability 151 00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:22,920 Speaker 1: both on radio and on television has been remarkable. But 152 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:26,360 Speaker 1: I'm curious, as you point out, and I'm like you 153 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:29,000 Speaker 1: in the sense I love reading, but then eventually you 154 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:31,679 Speaker 1: have to turn and you have to write. How did 155 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:35,080 Speaker 1: you find the writing process? Well? I was very lucky 156 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:38,160 Speaker 1: because I was raised by nuns, and the nuns who 157 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:41,440 Speaker 1: taught me the religious and the sacred heart, were just 158 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:45,679 Speaker 1: insistent that you write and write and write, and so 159 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:49,960 Speaker 1: I've always written. I've always been a good writer, so 160 00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 1: I wasn't afraid of writing. But of course I can. 161 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:58,680 Speaker 1: As you know, it's hard work. You know, it requires 162 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:02,960 Speaker 1: a great deal of discipline, it's lonely, and you just 163 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:06,320 Speaker 1: have to keep doing it until it's done. It's like 164 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:09,720 Speaker 1: a paper versus an exam. That is not easy, but 165 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:13,600 Speaker 1: it's incredibly satisfying once it's done. That's sort of my 166 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:16,320 Speaker 1: experience with you. You look back and you think, Wow, 167 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:19,480 Speaker 1: that actually worked out. So you start out and you 168 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:22,400 Speaker 1: do all this research. I'm curious before we get into 169 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:26,800 Speaker 1: individual women, what was the biggest surprise when you were 170 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:29,880 Speaker 1: writing this first book on founding mothers. What's the thing 171 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:32,520 Speaker 1: that you've done and said, Wow, I really hadn't thought 172 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:35,560 Speaker 1: of that, or I really it makes me think differently. 173 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:39,400 Speaker 1: I was surprised at how deeply political they were. You know, 174 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:42,560 Speaker 1: I knew about Abigail Adams writing to John Adams, and 175 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:45,360 Speaker 1: of course you're famous, remember the ladies, But I really 176 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:49,920 Speaker 1: didn't realize how they were all engaged in politics, and 177 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:54,680 Speaker 1: they were such patriots here. They were suffering all of 178 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:58,120 Speaker 1: the hardships of the revolution and the pre revolution. Of 179 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:00,480 Speaker 1: their husbands went off to the Continental Congress. Nobody was 180 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:04,280 Speaker 1: paying them, many of them were in danger, and they 181 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:08,960 Speaker 1: still really believed in this cause. And you know, just 182 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:11,839 Speaker 1: getting through the day in the eighteenth century was hard. 183 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:16,320 Speaker 1: You'd have these women to think about it. They'd sometimes 184 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:19,640 Speaker 1: lose two children in a week. It was horrible. But 185 00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:23,360 Speaker 1: then they would still sit up at night and write 186 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:28,040 Speaker 1: letters about what seemed important to them, about the new 187 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:31,280 Speaker 1: nation that they wanted to see form. It's just remarkable 188 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:35,120 Speaker 1: how dedicated they were and how knowledgeable they were, and 189 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:37,800 Speaker 1: that really was a big surprise when you were going 190 00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:41,679 Speaker 1: through this and you write about it, you know several 191 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:44,679 Speaker 1: really fascinating people. Did one of them sort of catch 192 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:48,680 Speaker 1: your heart? Is the one that you found. I really 193 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:51,120 Speaker 1: like her. I'd really if you had a choice, if 194 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:53,120 Speaker 1: you had a chance to go to dinner, she'd be 195 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:55,960 Speaker 1: the one you'd like to go hang out with. Well, 196 00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:59,080 Speaker 1: I think Sally Livingston Jay would be the person you'd 197 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:00,840 Speaker 1: like to have dinner with. She was the wife of 198 00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:04,960 Speaker 1: John Jay, who eventually became our first Chief Justice, but 199 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:09,920 Speaker 1: she was off with him in Spain and France and 200 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:14,440 Speaker 1: her family, the Livingstons, were deeply political, and her father, 201 00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:19,680 Speaker 1: who was the first Patriot governor of New Jersey, had 202 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:23,280 Speaker 1: this bunch of girls and he was very he He 203 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:25,920 Speaker 1: didn't seem to have any sense that girls couldn't do 204 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:29,199 Speaker 1: what boys could do, and so he gave them all 205 00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:34,600 Speaker 1: responsible jobs and treated them as serious people. So she 206 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:40,440 Speaker 1: wrote these fabulous letters back from her journeys that were very, 207 00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:43,040 Speaker 1: very funny. So you get a sense of her as 208 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 1: as somebody you really like to spend time with. And 209 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:49,720 Speaker 1: apparently she was also a great hostess, So she would 210 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:52,360 Speaker 1: be the person you'd want to have dinner with. But 211 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:54,240 Speaker 1: then there are others that you'd kind of like to 212 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:58,080 Speaker 1: interview nude, you know, mercy Otis Warren, who was probably 213 00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:02,560 Speaker 1: too serious for my taste, but she was an interesting 214 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:08,320 Speaker 1: philosopher and a very important propagandist for the Patriot cause. 215 00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:11,160 Speaker 1: I'd like to do a TV interview with her, but 216 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:13,400 Speaker 1: I probably would for not to have dinner with her. 217 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 1: That's great, you know. I've written a number of books 218 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:21,600 Speaker 1: about Washington, and we did a documentary called The First 219 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:27,040 Speaker 1: American about him, and I'm really always struck with how 220 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:31,720 Speaker 1: central Martha was to his sense of well being, how 221 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:34,319 Speaker 1: important it was that she would come to Valley Forge, 222 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:37,560 Speaker 1: how much she was in a sense that even when 223 00:13:37,559 --> 00:13:40,000 Speaker 1: she was back at Mount Vernon and he was in 224 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:42,880 Speaker 1: the field, there was still a sense of intimacy, which 225 00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:45,920 Speaker 1: we can't fully capture because she burned all of their 226 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:48,440 Speaker 1: personal letters. I know I could kill her all over 227 00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:52,040 Speaker 1: again for doing that, but the Ladies Association Aunt Vernon 228 00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:56,360 Speaker 1: has put peace together a lot of her life, particularly 229 00:13:56,360 --> 00:13:59,320 Speaker 1: from other people. She didn't just go to Valley Forge. 230 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:03,320 Speaker 1: She went to camp every single winter of the eight 231 00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:07,320 Speaker 1: long years of the Revolutionary War, and she went because 232 00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:11,800 Speaker 1: Washington thought that his wife was essential to troop morale. 233 00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:17,719 Speaker 1: There were periods when the troops were unpaid, unclothed, unsheltered, 234 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:22,520 Speaker 1: threatening desertion by regiment, and she would arrive at the 235 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:26,120 Speaker 1: camp and they would cheer her in, Lady Washington is here, 236 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:30,240 Speaker 1: and she would bring foodstuff, some cloths that had been 237 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:33,480 Speaker 1: made at Mount Vernon over the summer, one of the 238 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:38,000 Speaker 1: many contributions of African Americans to the revolution. And she 239 00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:41,280 Speaker 1: and the other officers wives would cook for the soldiers 240 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:43,840 Speaker 1: and sew for the soldiers, and pray with the soldiers, 241 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:47,440 Speaker 1: and nurse the soldiers and put on great entertainments for 242 00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:50,240 Speaker 1: them and just keep them happy, keep them in camp. 243 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:56,440 Speaker 1: And the letters about their affection for her are just remarkable. 244 00:14:56,560 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 1: And then after the war, when she became the first 245 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:04,040 Speaker 1: first Lady and had a very difficult role to try 246 00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:08,280 Speaker 1: to forge, veterans would come and visit with her because 247 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:10,640 Speaker 1: they had all gotten to know her during the war. 248 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:15,960 Speaker 1: And in that very first Congress she lobbied for veterans 249 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:19,440 Speaker 1: benefits for Revolutionary War veterans because she had been a 250 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:22,520 Speaker 1: camp with him. It's remarkable in that sense. I always 251 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:25,880 Speaker 1: try to remind people when they complain about the challenges 252 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:30,600 Speaker 1: of modern politics that Washington spent all but two weeks 253 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:33,960 Speaker 1: of an eight year period in the field, and in 254 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 1: a sense, her coming to him and being with him, 255 00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:41,680 Speaker 1: I think made it possible for him to sustain his 256 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:43,680 Speaker 1: own morale, not just the morale of the troops. I 257 00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:45,720 Speaker 1: think that's absolutely right. It was a good thing she 258 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:48,120 Speaker 1: was on hand because he could be flirty. There was 259 00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:51,320 Speaker 1: one dance where he danced for three hours straight with 260 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:55,080 Speaker 1: the very flirtatious and pretty Catherine Littlefield Green, the wife 261 00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:57,960 Speaker 1: of Nathaniel Green. So it's a good thing Martha was 262 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:02,360 Speaker 1: on hand. Because we see the older Washington as president, 263 00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:07,040 Speaker 1: we don't realize how energetic and how good looking and 264 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:09,600 Speaker 1: how capable he was. He was a hunk. He was 265 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:13,360 Speaker 1: totally and the fact of his good looks and his 266 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:17,320 Speaker 1: presence made a huge difference in his leadership. It really 267 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:20,080 Speaker 1: made people sort of sit up and pay attention to him, 268 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:22,680 Speaker 1: and he was well aware of that. You also remember 269 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:26,800 Speaker 1: that he almost quits after the first term because the 270 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:30,560 Speaker 1: news media is attacking Martha for having high tea, and 271 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:33,720 Speaker 1: I think it's a sense of his sensitivity to her 272 00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:37,800 Speaker 1: that he was just infuriated than anybody after everything she 273 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:40,640 Speaker 1: had done for the cause of freedom, that anybody would 274 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 1: criticize her. Well, And of course, again, you know, people 275 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:47,320 Speaker 1: think that this partisanship we're living through is something recent. 276 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:50,200 Speaker 1: Of course it had already started by then. And the 277 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:53,280 Speaker 1: only thing that Hamilton and Madison could agree on is 278 00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:56,360 Speaker 1: that Washington to run for a second term, and he 279 00:16:56,680 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 1: really didn't want to do it. The election was in December, 280 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:04,520 Speaker 1: and in November he had tea with Eliza pal a 281 00:17:04,600 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 1: woman who was very influential and federalist politics in Philadelphia, 282 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:12,479 Speaker 1: and she was a good friend of his, and he 283 00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:15,000 Speaker 1: said he wasn't going to run again. She wrote him 284 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:18,440 Speaker 1: a letter basically saying you have to run again, and 285 00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:21,040 Speaker 1: she called on a sense of patriotism and a sense 286 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:23,920 Speaker 1: of history and a sense of duty. But then she 287 00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:28,520 Speaker 1: did refer to his looks, basically saying, your mere presence 288 00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:33,480 Speaker 1: is calculated to inspire confidence in the American people. And 289 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:36,199 Speaker 1: of course by appealing to his pride, it worked, and 290 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:39,879 Speaker 1: he ran again, and the country survived. Ed Mount Vernon, 291 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:44,280 Speaker 1: where they have I think a pretty amazing museum presenting 292 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:47,520 Speaker 1: their lives. I had never realized that when they were younger, 293 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:50,879 Speaker 1: she was really quite attractive, and we have this image 294 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:54,040 Speaker 1: of her and her grandmotherly face. But when she was 295 00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 1: first married to Washington, in many ways she matched him 296 00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:00,240 Speaker 1: in being an attractive person, not to mention and that 297 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:03,640 Speaker 1: she was the richest woman in Virginia. That helped. I mean, 298 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:07,720 Speaker 1: she had inherited from her first husband. Some of the 299 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:09,760 Speaker 1: letters of hers, by the way, that we do have 300 00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 1: were between her husbands after Daniel park Custas died and 301 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:19,240 Speaker 1: before she married Washington, and she was running the business, 302 00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:23,600 Speaker 1: and they are letters to vendors in England that she 303 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:27,240 Speaker 1: was dealing with. She was on top of it, and 304 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:30,480 Speaker 1: there is some evidence that she was really very hesitant 305 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:34,439 Speaker 1: to remarry because of course a married woman could not 306 00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:38,000 Speaker 1: own property. A widow could, but a married woman couldn't. 307 00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:42,520 Speaker 1: She was hesitant to give up that right. But then 308 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:45,880 Speaker 1: George swept her off her feet. He was very clever. 309 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:49,040 Speaker 1: Not not only was she attractive and wealthy, but she 310 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:52,840 Speaker 1: was competent in many ways. Mount Vernon survives for eight 311 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:57,640 Speaker 1: years without him because of her right. And then when 312 00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:00,679 Speaker 1: the Washington family inhered it, they ran to the ground. 313 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:04,200 Speaker 1: It took that remarkable group of women in the middle 314 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:08,160 Speaker 1: of the nineteenth century to purchase it and make it survived. 315 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:10,800 Speaker 1: You know, in that sense, we just do a diversion 316 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 1: for a minute. The Mount Vernon Women's Association is really 317 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 1: remarkable because at a time when you didn't think of 318 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:22,000 Speaker 1: women playing that leading a role, they saw Mount Vernon 319 00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:26,760 Speaker 1: collapsing in decaying. They got organized, they did fundraising and 320 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:32,440 Speaker 1: literally saved the entire farm in the mansion of collapse. 321 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 1: And during the Civil War it was really touch and 322 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:38,399 Speaker 1: go and they in fact, the only money from the 323 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:42,520 Speaker 1: federal government that Mount Vernon has ever received was a 324 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:47,320 Speaker 1: slight compensation for soldiers being camped there during the Civil War. 325 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:50,680 Speaker 1: But that group of women was incredible, and in fact, 326 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:54,120 Speaker 1: I have an interesting letter from Abigail Brooks Adams, who 327 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:57,840 Speaker 1: was Charles Francis Adams's wife, of course, the grandson of 328 00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:02,119 Speaker 1: the original John Adams, saying, those women have a huge 329 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:05,040 Speaker 1: problem raising all of that money, but I'll do what 330 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:09,960 Speaker 1: I can. I found them to be remarkably organized and 331 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:15,120 Speaker 1: discipline about getting things done, and the research is first rate. Yeah, 332 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:17,880 Speaker 1: I would say anybody who's listening to this conversation, if 333 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:20,520 Speaker 1: you get a chance to come to Washington. You should 334 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:23,200 Speaker 1: go to Mount Vernon and you'll be amazed how much 335 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:27,440 Speaker 1: you learn and how different your feelings are after you've 336 00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:30,520 Speaker 1: been there. Absolutely, and they've also done a very good 337 00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:34,080 Speaker 1: job of highlighting the lives of the people who were 338 00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 1: enslaves there and the contributions they made and their craftsmanship. 339 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:43,600 Speaker 1: It's a much fuller story. When we come back, we'll 340 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:46,640 Speaker 1: talk about the founding mother, who was prolific in her letter, 341 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:50,800 Speaker 1: writing mostly to her husband, advising him on what to do. 342 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:15,879 Speaker 1: I think the woman who gets the most attention because 343 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:19,440 Speaker 1: of the quality of her letters is Abigail Adams. Took 344 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:22,280 Speaker 1: herself seriously, and obviously John Adams took her seriously too. 345 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:26,840 Speaker 1: But she's really a remarkable shift from Martha Washington in style. 346 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:29,959 Speaker 1: I sort of wonder sometimes how they must have gotten 347 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:32,720 Speaker 1: along or not gotten along. It's kind of a classic 348 00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:37,359 Speaker 1: South North thing, isn't it. You know? Martha graciously on 349 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:44,480 Speaker 1: the plantation, entertaining endlessly, Abigail frugally in New England, trying 350 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:48,240 Speaker 1: to keep body and sold together she I mean, which 351 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:54,240 Speaker 1: she did in addition to her smart political and philosophical smarts. 352 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:59,080 Speaker 1: The way she managed to support that family it's just incredible. 353 00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:02,040 Speaker 1: I mean, you go to their first house and it's 354 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:05,440 Speaker 1: the size of most people's living rooms today. And she 355 00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:10,119 Speaker 1: had four little kids there, and she had soldiers coming 356 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:13,960 Speaker 1: and staying from time to time, and she had a 357 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:18,400 Speaker 1: husband who was never home, and she managed to keep 358 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:21,720 Speaker 1: it all together, while keeping it all together to think 359 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:24,760 Speaker 1: great thoughts about what the future of the country should be. 360 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:27,080 Speaker 1: She said at one point to John, you know, we 361 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:31,119 Speaker 1: women are really better patriots than you are, because here 362 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:35,560 Speaker 1: we are suffering all the hardships of this war and 363 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:39,200 Speaker 1: making all the sacrifices. And if we win, you men 364 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:41,760 Speaker 1: are going to be held in high regard and hold 365 00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:44,600 Speaker 1: high office, and we won't even be able to vote. 366 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:48,080 Speaker 1: So we're better patriots than you are. And I must 367 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:51,400 Speaker 1: say he agreed. What strikes me about her is both 368 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:54,879 Speaker 1: her assertiveness and her clarity. That this is a person 369 00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:58,879 Speaker 1: who was confident in her right to be direct and 370 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:02,560 Speaker 1: who thought deeply and seriously about what she was going 371 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:06,200 Speaker 1: to be direct about. But these are serious letters, absolutely, 372 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:08,880 Speaker 1: And of course we're so blessed because there're thousands of him. 373 00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:12,160 Speaker 1: He was gone so much. She wrote to him in Philadelphia, 374 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:15,160 Speaker 1: She wrote to him in Paris, she wrote to him 375 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:17,159 Speaker 1: in Holland. She wrote to him all the time, and 376 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:21,440 Speaker 1: then finally finally joined him. There were long stretches there, 377 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:25,360 Speaker 1: and he really relied on her. When he became president. 378 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:28,479 Speaker 1: She was back at the farm trying to get everything 379 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:33,879 Speaker 1: settled before she came to Philadelphia, and his mother was dying, 380 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:38,439 Speaker 1: and you know, she was very businesslike about all of this, 381 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:42,320 Speaker 1: and he kept writing her letter after letters saying, you've 382 00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:45,120 Speaker 1: got to come. I must have you. I can't do 383 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 1: this without you, and stop worrying about my mother, worry 384 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:52,360 Speaker 1: about me. He does say that at one point he 385 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:55,760 Speaker 1: was totally reliant on her. Now, I tell you, I 386 00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:59,399 Speaker 1: think that when she became first Lady, that she fell 387 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:03,000 Speaker 1: entrapped in the way that so many people in the 388 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:05,160 Speaker 1: White House do, not that she was in the White 389 00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:08,080 Speaker 1: House at the very end, but in the Executive Mansion do, 390 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:15,159 Speaker 1: which is that they'd become so isolated and so convinced 391 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:18,080 Speaker 1: that they are inside doing the true the rights of 392 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:21,439 Speaker 1: just and everybody outside is out to get them, that 393 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:27,400 Speaker 1: she became less useful politically because she was so offended 394 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:31,080 Speaker 1: by the controversy in the opposition and all of that, 395 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:34,920 Speaker 1: and so she became a huge supporter of the Alien 396 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:38,080 Speaker 1: and Sedition acts, and that was a death blow to 397 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:40,960 Speaker 1: John Adams. Well, I'm sure were there any of the 398 00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:45,560 Speaker 1: letters that you found particularly moving or youth really thought 399 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:48,480 Speaker 1: this is something for the ages. Well, there's lots that 400 00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:51,159 Speaker 1: are for the ages, because she is so smart and 401 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:54,480 Speaker 1: she sometimes is so direct, as you say. She at 402 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:57,920 Speaker 1: one point, again before the war, she went to church 403 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:03,000 Speaker 1: and the preacher was counseling that they get along better 404 00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:07,600 Speaker 1: with England, you know, reconciliation, and she was furious, we're 405 00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:10,880 Speaker 1: not reconciling with those people. And the letter is very 406 00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:14,000 Speaker 1: direct and funny, but you're not the most touching one 407 00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:19,399 Speaker 1: actually that I found was from John Adams when Abigail 408 00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:23,800 Speaker 1: lost a baby and the baby was full term and 409 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:26,720 Speaker 1: she was very frightened that she was going to die, 410 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:32,720 Speaker 1: and he was in Baltimore where Congress had gone to 411 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:37,240 Speaker 1: escape the British letters take a while, so he writes 412 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:38,840 Speaker 1: to her at one point and says, you must have 413 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:41,480 Speaker 1: had the baby mine. Now I'm so eager to know 414 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:45,520 Speaker 1: about this new life. And then and then he learns 415 00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:49,840 Speaker 1: that the baby had died and he is just heartbroken, 416 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:55,720 Speaker 1: and his letter is so affecting about how he feels 417 00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:59,840 Speaker 1: so undone by this life. He never met it. Really, 418 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:02,640 Speaker 1: if you do spumps, which is really a kind of 419 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:07,680 Speaker 1: John Adams you don't normally think of exactly. He's usually 420 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:11,600 Speaker 1: so gruff and sort of clueless about how to deal 421 00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:16,040 Speaker 1: with people, and in this case he's just a sad daddy. 422 00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:21,120 Speaker 1: Now there's a dramatic difference between Abigail and Dolly Madison. 423 00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:26,120 Speaker 1: With Abigail, you get this really intellectual who's thinking about 424 00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:30,439 Speaker 1: all this, and with Dolly Madison, the great moment is 425 00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:35,000 Speaker 1: an action moment when she saves Washington's painting when the 426 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:37,679 Speaker 1: British are burning the White House, and it's just a 427 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:41,520 Speaker 1: kind of fascinating difference in the personalities. Well, I can 428 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:44,639 Speaker 1: make a case though, that Dolly Madison kept this country 429 00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:49,000 Speaker 1: together in a way that was absolutely necessary throughout the 430 00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:53,720 Speaker 1: early Republic, as the partisanship was getting rifer and rifer, 431 00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:56,840 Speaker 1: and of course the sectionalism. She was the person who 432 00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:00,600 Speaker 1: made the Congress come together, and it's arm when she 433 00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:02,960 Speaker 1: was the wife of Secretary of State. You know, Jefferson 434 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:06,480 Speaker 1: was such an odd creature, and she's the person who 435 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:10,399 Speaker 1: entertained and she had these events at their house on 436 00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:13,720 Speaker 1: f Street, and then when they were in the White House, 437 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:18,359 Speaker 1: she did it as well. Sixteen years of Dolly Madison 438 00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:23,480 Speaker 1: as the premier hostess in Washington, where she made everybody 439 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:28,280 Speaker 1: come together, drink some wine together, have some punch, and behave, 440 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:31,680 Speaker 1: and it's where all of the deals were made. It's 441 00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:35,040 Speaker 1: where all the information was exchanged. And at one point 442 00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:38,760 Speaker 1: the Federalists thought that they could boycott her squeezes, as 443 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:41,359 Speaker 1: they were called, and then they discovered they didn't know 444 00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:44,480 Speaker 1: anything if they did that, so they had to relent 445 00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:48,760 Speaker 1: and go back because that was where business got done. 446 00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:52,960 Speaker 1: But she was brilliant about it. And at one point 447 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:57,920 Speaker 1: Henry Clay said to her, everybody loves missus Madison. She said, well, 448 00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:02,000 Speaker 1: that's because missus Madison loves everybody. Now I've read her mail, 449 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:05,640 Speaker 1: that's not true. But that was the way she came across. 450 00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:09,800 Speaker 1: And when she left, when the Madison presidency was over, 451 00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:15,159 Speaker 1: the newspapers, including the Federalist newspapers, Jess wrote these peans 452 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:17,520 Speaker 1: of praise to her, you know, these over the top 453 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:22,280 Speaker 1: tributes to her glory having come into the city and 454 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:26,840 Speaker 1: shown upon it and then it disappearing. She had her 455 00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:30,520 Speaker 1: few years back at Mountpelier, but then she came back 456 00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:34,560 Speaker 1: to Washington for much of her old age and remained 457 00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:36,800 Speaker 1: very much at present so she had a seat in 458 00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:42,120 Speaker 1: the House of Representatives. She was always consulted by presidents 459 00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:45,840 Speaker 1: and first ladies, always visited by visiting heads of state. 460 00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:49,560 Speaker 1: She was really first Lady for close to half a century. 461 00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:53,239 Speaker 1: You mentioned how strange Jefferson was. He's kind of an 462 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:56,560 Speaker 1: odd duck. He is very much so. My mother always 463 00:28:56,560 --> 00:29:00,000 Speaker 1: said he was a spoiled brat, and that's probably true, 464 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:02,800 Speaker 1: but he is. I mean, he was so smart, he 465 00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:05,880 Speaker 1: thought great thoughts all the time, but he was just 466 00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:10,800 Speaker 1: such a bag of contradictions. I mean, he knew slavery 467 00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:13,719 Speaker 1: was wrong, and yet he couldn't get away from it. 468 00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:18,560 Speaker 1: He was so odd about religion and with women. He 469 00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:23,120 Speaker 1: had good relationships with women, but always talked about how 470 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:26,960 Speaker 1: he didn't think women should be involved in anything political, 471 00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:30,320 Speaker 1: and that they had ruined France. All of that. But 472 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:33,920 Speaker 1: then he would have these long political exchanges with women, 473 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:36,840 Speaker 1: so he was quite complicated. When he was in the 474 00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:40,840 Speaker 1: White House. He would have Federalist to dinner one night 475 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:43,560 Speaker 1: or Republicans to dinner another night, so that he could 476 00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:47,120 Speaker 1: say different things to different people. But you know, the 477 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:52,360 Speaker 1: Sally Hemming scandal broke. People don't realize this in eighteen 478 00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:56,520 Speaker 1: o two. It was in the papers in the second 479 00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:59,920 Speaker 1: year of his presidency. So he kept begging his door 480 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:04,440 Speaker 1: orders to come to Washington to basically serve as cover, 481 00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:07,520 Speaker 1: and they would come from time to time. His younger daughter, 482 00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:11,680 Speaker 1: Maria died in childbirth while he was president, but his 483 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:14,840 Speaker 1: older daughter Martha came had the first baby in the 484 00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:20,479 Speaker 1: White House, James Madison Randolph, and he was always after 485 00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:24,360 Speaker 1: them to come and be with him, even as he 486 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:27,880 Speaker 1: would write letters saying women shouldn't be involved in these things. 487 00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:30,840 Speaker 1: He was a complicated person. I think that sort of 488 00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:34,920 Speaker 1: captures But it was just the degree to which that complexity, 489 00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:39,480 Speaker 1: in that sort of intellectual aloofness, created a vacuum that 490 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:42,920 Speaker 1: Dolly Medicine could fill in in her willingness to do that. 491 00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:47,360 Speaker 1: If we had one or two dining rooms in this 492 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:52,320 Speaker 1: city today that were explicitly bipartisan, the city would probably 493 00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:55,920 Speaker 1: be a lot healthier place, absolutely absolutely would be. And 494 00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:57,880 Speaker 1: you know, when I was growing up that was very 495 00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:00,880 Speaker 1: much the case. But you know, we live in different times. 496 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:06,320 Speaker 1: Bess Truman became president after Eleanor Roosevelt. She said that 497 00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:10,400 Speaker 1: she was coming into the hardest job since Elizabeth Monroe 498 00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:14,800 Speaker 1: came in after Dolly Madison, so it was coming in 499 00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:20,160 Speaker 1: after a very vibrant person. When we come back, not 500 00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:24,560 Speaker 1: all Founding mothers are alike. Next we'll reveal the mother 501 00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:27,360 Speaker 1: who was one of the most influential and unique voices 502 00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:49,880 Speaker 1: of her time. You then go from the sort of 503 00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:54,840 Speaker 1: wives of extraordinary famous Founding fathers to Merciotis Warren, who 504 00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:58,560 Speaker 1: really carves out her own space in a way that 505 00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:03,240 Speaker 1: for that generation is pretty absolutely. She grew up in 506 00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:06,280 Speaker 1: a family where again she was treated as equal until 507 00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:08,600 Speaker 1: her brothers went to Harvard. Of course she couldn't do that, 508 00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:14,120 Speaker 1: but she wrote plays and poems that were published in 509 00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:19,680 Speaker 1: newspapers around the colonies that were very influential in rousing 510 00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:23,760 Speaker 1: opinion against the British. She was as influential in some 511 00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:27,560 Speaker 1: quarters as Tom Payne with common sense. She also had 512 00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:32,080 Speaker 1: the ears of many of the Founders, and so when 513 00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:36,640 Speaker 1: the British were in Boston and wreaking havoc, her letters 514 00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:40,240 Speaker 1: to the Continental Congress made a big difference in terms 515 00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:45,280 Speaker 1: of bringing people together in their willingness to fight the 516 00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:47,680 Speaker 1: British because of course the British were not fighting in 517 00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:51,160 Speaker 1: the South at that point. It took some convincing and 518 00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:55,280 Speaker 1: her letters were influential in doing that. And then she 519 00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:59,040 Speaker 1: became very suspicious of the Constitution and all of that 520 00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:02,920 Speaker 1: because she didn't really believe in a strong federal government. 521 00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:07,200 Speaker 1: But she came around eventually and then wrote this remarkable 522 00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:10,120 Speaker 1: history of the American Revolution. And one of the things 523 00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:14,400 Speaker 1: that's impressive in that is that and this is another 524 00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:17,840 Speaker 1: reason why writing about the women is so important. She 525 00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:22,160 Speaker 1: talks about things that happened during the war. The men 526 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:25,880 Speaker 1: just never talk about rape as an instrument of war, 527 00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:29,480 Speaker 1: a starvation, all of the things. It's not just the 528 00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:33,480 Speaker 1: battlefield that she's talking about. She's talking about the effects 529 00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:36,960 Speaker 1: on all of American society. And you know, when you 530 00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:40,520 Speaker 1: think about the Bill of Rights and quartering troops, can 531 00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:45,200 Speaker 1: you imagine the offenses that those troops could have committed 532 00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:49,080 Speaker 1: when they were quartered in people's homes. I mean, it's 533 00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:53,440 Speaker 1: really a shocking thought. She was there talking about it 534 00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:56,880 Speaker 1: when nobody else was. And that's another thing actually about 535 00:33:56,960 --> 00:34:03,120 Speaker 1: writing these books. The women's letters are really delightful because 536 00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:06,480 Speaker 1: they're not writing thinking that their letters are going to 537 00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:10,600 Speaker 1: be published as the men were. They're not editing and 538 00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:14,320 Speaker 1: reeve drafting and all of that. They're just writing letters, 539 00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:18,640 Speaker 1: not expecting me to read their mail two hundred years later. Yes, 540 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:21,880 Speaker 1: they're full of politics, but they're also full of the 541 00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:26,040 Speaker 1: economic situation and who's having children and all too often 542 00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:29,719 Speaker 1: losing them, and what the fashions are and all of that. 543 00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:34,359 Speaker 1: So you get a much much broader sense of American society, 544 00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:38,000 Speaker 1: and you also get somewhat more clear eyed view of 545 00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:42,160 Speaker 1: the men. So in that context, was Mercy Otis Warren 546 00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:46,680 Speaker 1: unique or were there a group of women who actually 547 00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:52,120 Speaker 1: were public advocates and wrote for the public. She was unusual. 548 00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:57,240 Speaker 1: There were some others, anest Boudinos Stockton, whose husband Richard Stockton, 549 00:34:57,360 --> 00:34:59,480 Speaker 1: was one of the signers of the declaration, and then 550 00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:02,680 Speaker 1: were canted at some point, but she was still around 551 00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:06,920 Speaker 1: and became a great friend of Washington. Her poems were 552 00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:11,920 Speaker 1: published in the newspapers of the time, and actually Washington 553 00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:15,719 Speaker 1: wrote to her when the war was over and said, 554 00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:18,719 Speaker 1: basically announced, kind of up to you women to keep 555 00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:21,880 Speaker 1: this country going, make it work. A lot of women 556 00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:25,040 Speaker 1: were not published under their own name, So Judas Sergeant 557 00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:29,040 Speaker 1: Murray for instance, was published as The Gleaner for a while, 558 00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:31,279 Speaker 1: but then she wanted people to know it was she 559 00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:35,319 Speaker 1: who was writing, and she wrote in an essay that 560 00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:39,839 Speaker 1: was widely published in seventeen ninety seven on the equality 561 00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:42,960 Speaker 1: of the sexes. So you know there were women out 562 00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:46,760 Speaker 1: there arguing for equal rights even in the eighteenth century. 563 00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:54,000 Speaker 1: Jumping from literary advocacy the sort of direct action, Deborah 564 00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:56,600 Speaker 1: Sampson does something which actually happens a fan number of 565 00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:58,840 Speaker 1: times in the Civil War, but I think was a 566 00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:03,560 Speaker 1: little more unusual in the Revolutionary War. She becomes a 567 00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:05,719 Speaker 1: man in order to fight, right, she went to war. 568 00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:08,440 Speaker 1: They probably, I'm sure there were people in all of 569 00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:12,520 Speaker 1: our wars who did that. But she was Robert shirt Leaf, 570 00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:15,879 Speaker 1: and she fought, and she was injured several times, and 571 00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:19,799 Speaker 1: finally she got sick they called a camp fever, and 572 00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:24,680 Speaker 1: doctor came to tend to her and found out her secret, 573 00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:29,720 Speaker 1: and so she was discharged. But she did receive a pension, 574 00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:33,920 Speaker 1: as did her husband received a survivor's pension. She was 575 00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:37,440 Speaker 1: very much considered a soldier. And then there were others 576 00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:42,720 Speaker 1: who took over from their husbands on the battlefield. Margaret Corbin, 577 00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:46,280 Speaker 1: who at the bottle of Fort Washington. When her husband 578 00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:49,719 Speaker 1: was shot, took his gun, and she's actually buried at 579 00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:54,319 Speaker 1: West Point. There were several women who actually fought, and 580 00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:58,239 Speaker 1: then lots of women ran along with the men to 581 00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:04,240 Speaker 1: battle the followers, mainly the wives of the men, because 582 00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:06,239 Speaker 1: what else are they going to do. They didn't have 583 00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:10,879 Speaker 1: any wherewithal to make a living, and so they went 584 00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:14,240 Speaker 1: with the soldiers. And they then became useful. They cooked 585 00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:18,200 Speaker 1: and brought water and nursed and at one point at Yorktown. 586 00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:22,880 Speaker 1: In fact, this in exchange that Washington has memorialized of 587 00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:25,520 Speaker 1: saying to some woman who was headed out to the 588 00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:28,799 Speaker 1: field with bread, aren't you afraid? And she said, well, 589 00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:30,919 Speaker 1: if the men are out there, I should be out 590 00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:34,200 Speaker 1: there feeding them, you know. So they were very much 591 00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:38,960 Speaker 1: on the scene. And in Washington's general orders, he's constantly saying, 592 00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:43,680 Speaker 1: because he cares about appearances, and he's constantly saying, in 593 00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:46,160 Speaker 1: his general orders, I want the women and children to 594 00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:49,799 Speaker 1: march with the baggage trains. But he says, it's so 595 00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:53,839 Speaker 1: often that you can tell that it's not happening, and 596 00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:56,759 Speaker 1: then at one point he finally says, okay, just the 597 00:37:56,840 --> 00:38:00,000 Speaker 1: women who can move fast should move with the elite. 598 00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:03,480 Speaker 1: So they were in there. I'm trying to remember, wasn't 599 00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:07,719 Speaker 1: Molly Pitcher? Yes, she was at Monmouth in New Jersey. 600 00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:11,640 Speaker 1: We're not sure exactly who she was. There's so much 601 00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:16,960 Speaker 1: contemporaneous storytelling about her where she was filling the cannons 602 00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:20,919 Speaker 1: with water, and which was the Pitcher and the man 603 00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:24,080 Speaker 1: with the husband, boyfriend, whatever was shot and she took 604 00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:26,520 Speaker 1: there's I think there's a very famous painting of her 605 00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:31,120 Speaker 1: wielding the device that you shoved down the cannon to 606 00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:34,520 Speaker 1: the cannon. And of course, back in that period, because 607 00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:37,000 Speaker 1: of the kind of cannon they were using, they needed 608 00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:39,479 Speaker 1: to put the water in to make sure that there's 609 00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:43,279 Speaker 1: no fire left from the last round when they put 610 00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:46,000 Speaker 1: the powder, and it could blow up before you wanted 611 00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:52,120 Speaker 1: it to. So she actually, at least by mythology, she 612 00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:53,880 Speaker 1: played it. You know, she was one of those heroic 613 00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:57,000 Speaker 1: figures and that sort of helped build the morale and 614 00:38:57,040 --> 00:39:01,040 Speaker 1: the sense of potential victory. Right when you add up 615 00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:04,680 Speaker 1: all of these stories, do you really see what an 616 00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:09,520 Speaker 1: incredible contribution these women make. And let's not leave out 617 00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:14,000 Speaker 1: the fundraising in seventeen eighty it was a low, low 618 00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:17,000 Speaker 1: point in the war. The French hadn't arrived yet, the 619 00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:20,920 Speaker 1: British had New York and Charleston, and soldiers were feeling 620 00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:25,640 Speaker 1: very defeated. Esther de Bert Reid, who was an English 621 00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:30,480 Speaker 1: immigrant who became a Rabbit patriot, was the wife of 622 00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:34,480 Speaker 1: Joseph Reid, who was the governor of Pennsylvania and one 623 00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:38,080 Speaker 1: of Washington's right hand men, and she published in the 624 00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:42,600 Speaker 1: newspapers the sentiments of an American woman calling on women 625 00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:48,160 Speaker 1: to sacrifice for the men in the army, and then 626 00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:52,680 Speaker 1: started a fundraising drive, and they kept wonderful records. They 627 00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:57,319 Speaker 1: went house to house around Philadelphia mainly, but also in 628 00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:00,960 Speaker 1: the other colonies, the first ladies in each He ran 629 00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:03,720 Speaker 1: the drive, and in fact, it's the only extant letter 630 00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:07,080 Speaker 1: of Martha Jefferson's that we have, is of her asking 631 00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:10,960 Speaker 1: the women of Virginia to contribute to the fund for 632 00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:15,480 Speaker 1: the soldiers. In a few weeks, they raised three hundred 633 00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:19,960 Speaker 1: thousand dollars. And at that point Robert Morris and his 634 00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:22,879 Speaker 1: cronies were trying to start a bank and they had 635 00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:25,799 Speaker 1: only raised three hundred and sixty thousand dollars. So the 636 00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:30,400 Speaker 1: women did something quite remarkable, and it contributed mightily to 637 00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:34,520 Speaker 1: soldier morale. Are there lots and lots of newspaper articles 638 00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:38,000 Speaker 1: attesting to that. So they were just all kinds of 639 00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:44,800 Speaker 1: ways that they made their abilities available to this new nation. 640 00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:48,520 Speaker 1: Let me take this last couple of minutes and switch 641 00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:53,200 Speaker 1: gears pretty dramatically on you. And You've had a remarkable career. 642 00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:56,920 Speaker 1: You grew up with remarkable parents. Both your father and 643 00:40:56,960 --> 00:41:01,799 Speaker 1: your mother had remarkable careers and have carved out a 644 00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:04,880 Speaker 1: niche for yourself as a journalist, as a historian, and 645 00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:07,560 Speaker 1: as somebody who as an observer of our time and 646 00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:10,160 Speaker 1: an interpreter of the past. If a young man or 647 00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:14,080 Speaker 1: woman came to you and said, what's your advice, Given 648 00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:16,480 Speaker 1: all the things you've been through, all the things you've done, 649 00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:19,160 Speaker 1: what advice would you give to a young person today 650 00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:22,759 Speaker 1: that you've learned that you think would help them on 651 00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:26,040 Speaker 1: the path thereon? I would say, and I'm not just 652 00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:28,919 Speaker 1: saying this because I'm talking to you, I would say, 653 00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:33,520 Speaker 1: find a way to contribute to the public, preferably through 654 00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:38,759 Speaker 1: public service. I am a great admirer of people who 655 00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:43,120 Speaker 1: put themselves on the line, the famous Roosevelt man in 656 00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:46,839 Speaker 1: the arena, and now thankfully women in the arena. I 657 00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:51,600 Speaker 1: know how hard public service is, and I greatly admire 658 00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:54,160 Speaker 1: the people who are willing to do it. I think 659 00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:57,760 Speaker 1: that that is the way the nation thrives and grows 660 00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:02,600 Speaker 1: and comes to understand our changes as an American society 661 00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:08,000 Speaker 1: is by young people taking on that obligation and being 662 00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:10,879 Speaker 1: willing to fulfill it. And I know it's tough, I 663 00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:13,440 Speaker 1: really do, and I've always felt guilty about not doing 664 00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:17,080 Speaker 1: it myself. I'm the only member of my original nuclear 665 00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:20,560 Speaker 1: family not to run for Congress, but I've tried to 666 00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:24,839 Speaker 1: contribute by explaining American government. But I do think that 667 00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:28,640 Speaker 1: we need the participation of the citizenry in any way 668 00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:31,360 Speaker 1: that they feel that they can do it, and I 669 00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:35,239 Speaker 1: would advise any young person to whatever else they do, 670 00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:40,400 Speaker 1: to also be very participatory citizens. Yeah, citizenship comes in 671 00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:43,520 Speaker 1: many ways. I would argue that as a journalist who 672 00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:47,080 Speaker 1: has really tried to understand, of course, you came from 673 00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:50,640 Speaker 1: a unique insight. I mean, very few journalists had quite 674 00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:53,799 Speaker 1: the background of their childhood that you had. But I've 675 00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:57,400 Speaker 1: always felt like you were really trying to understand and 676 00:42:57,560 --> 00:43:01,960 Speaker 1: explain this process of self government that, on the one 677 00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:04,719 Speaker 1: hand is very robust and on the other hand, is 678 00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:07,319 Speaker 1: very very fragile in that sense. I guess i'd echo 679 00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:10,080 Speaker 1: what you said, except I would say that citizenship can 680 00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:13,239 Speaker 1: come in many forms, and that if you figure out 681 00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:16,760 Speaker 1: your particular path for citizenship, you can do an amazing 682 00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:19,520 Speaker 1: amount for America and do it in a way which 683 00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:23,120 Speaker 1: is interesting and fascinating and leads to a good life. 684 00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:26,160 Speaker 1: I couldn't agree more. Let me wish you a very 685 00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:29,600 Speaker 1: happy Mother's Day. Thank you. I'm happy to say that 686 00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:33,879 Speaker 1: I now have middle aged children and sixteen age grandchildren 687 00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:36,680 Speaker 1: and looking forward to a day with him. Thank you 688 00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:39,200 Speaker 1: very much, Thank you so much. Lovely to talk to you. 689 00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:49,399 Speaker 1: Thank you to my guest, Cookie Roberts. You can read 690 00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:52,719 Speaker 1: more about the founding mothers we talked about today, including 691 00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:56,040 Speaker 1: a link to Cookie's book, on our show page at 692 00:43:56,120 --> 00:44:01,160 Speaker 1: newtsworld dot com. Newtsworld is produced by Westwood One. The 693 00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:06,759 Speaker 1: executive producer is Debbie Myers, our producers Garnsey Sloan. Our 694 00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:12,040 Speaker 1: editor is Robert Borowski. Our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The 695 00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:15,960 Speaker 1: artwork for the show was created by Steve Penley. The 696 00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:19,560 Speaker 1: music was composed by Joey Salvin. Special thanks to the 697 00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:23,160 Speaker 1: team at Gamers three sixty and Westwood Ones, Tim Sabian 698 00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:27,120 Speaker 1: and Robert Mathers. Please email me with your comments at 699 00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:31,440 Speaker 1: Newton newtsworld dot com. If you've been enjoying Newtsworld, I 700 00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:34,600 Speaker 1: hope you'll go to Apple podcast and both rate us 701 00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:38,040 Speaker 1: with five stars and give us a review so others 702 00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:41,960 Speaker 1: can learn what it's all about. On the next episode 703 00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:45,160 Speaker 1: of Newtsworld, we will explore the United States relationship with 704 00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:48,560 Speaker 1: communist China and how we got it all wrong. Now 705 00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:51,279 Speaker 1: there's new China and the Chinese people have stood up 706 00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:53,799 Speaker 1: and she didn't been called it the China dream, and 707 00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:56,200 Speaker 1: this is something that applies to everything you know. There's 708 00:44:56,200 --> 00:44:58,719 Speaker 1: a China dream to build a powerful military. There's a 709 00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:02,920 Speaker 1: China dream too, go to space. There's superpower aspirations. I'm 710 00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:14,800 Speaker 1: neud Gang Ridge. This is Newsworld, the Westwood one podcast network.