Speaker 1: Pushkin.
Speaker 2: Hey, slight changers, Maya here. My new newsletter, which I'm
Speaker 2: so excited about, is out now. It's called Change with
Speaker 2: Maya Shunker. It's totally free and you can sign up
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Speaker 2: our show notes. The reason I started this newsletter is
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Speaker 2: of you around how we can navigate change with more
Speaker 2: wisdom and with more hope. I'll be sharing personal updates,
Speaker 2: links to what I'm reading or watching lately, exciting new
Speaker 2: science about change, and my top takeaways for my conversations
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Speaker 2: now onto the episode.
Speaker 1: I remember asking my dad at one point, what does
Speaker 1: my name Sanita mean? And he said in Sanskript, Sanita
Speaker 1: means good. And that's the kind of messages I received.
Speaker 1: You know, to be good, to fit in, be polite,
Speaker 1: don't make a scene, don't question authority. And I think
Speaker 1: many of us have had that kind of upbringing or
Speaker 1: messages that they're expected to comply.
Speaker 2: Sunita Saw is a doctor turned organizational psychologist and a
Speaker 2: professor at Cornell University. She studies why it can be
Speaker 2: so hard to say no. Sunita says that if you
Speaker 2: consider yourself a pretty compliant person, maybe you even think
Speaker 2: of yourself as a people pleaser, it's something you can change.
Speaker 1: Defiance isn't a personality, it's a skill set. If we
Speaker 1: have a self concept of being complying, it doesn't mean
Speaker 1: that we can't be defiant. We just have to learn it.
Speaker 1: So even if compliance is our default, it doesn't have
Speaker 1: to be a destiny.
Speaker 2: On today's show, How to Say No, I'm maya Schunker,
Speaker 2: a scientist who studies human behavior, and this is a
Speaker 2: slight change of plans, a show about who we are
Speaker 2: and who we become in the face of a big change.
Speaker 2: Have you ever found yourself saying yes to something you
Speaker 2: really didn't want to do. Maybe it was taking on
Speaker 2: extra work when your plate was already full, or agreeing
Speaker 2: to plans you had no energy for, or feeling pressure
Speaker 2: to say yes to someone in a position of power.
Speaker 2: Defiance is super hard, especially when our relationships and our
Speaker 2: reputations are on line, and that's why I'm so glad
Speaker 2: Sunita could join us today to talk about how exactly
Speaker 2: we can build this skill. Her new book is called
Speaker 2: DeFi The Power of No in a World that demands Yes.
Speaker 1: I think I've been interested in defying somewhat that single
Speaker 1: powerful word defy means for a really, really long time.
Speaker 1: So as a child, I was known for being an
Speaker 1: obedient daughter and a student. And I grew up in Yorkshire,
Speaker 1: in the north of England. My parents are from India.
Speaker 1: My mom used to at that time where her sorry
Speaker 1: every single day, and it was quite obvious we were
Speaker 1: different from the people around us. People used to stare
Speaker 1: when we went into department stores. I felt jostling on
Speaker 1: the streets. I heard the racist remarks of aimed, ohweh
Speaker 1: several times. I remember when I was going through that
Speaker 1: I need to fit in, I need to blend in
Speaker 1: stage that my dad got me these very bright red
Speaker 1: leg warmers. Red was my favorite color, and I did
Speaker 1: not want to wear them at all because I thought
Speaker 1: I would stand out too much at school and it
Speaker 1: would bring some attention to me, which is not what
Speaker 1: I wanted. So I spent the entire day trying to
Speaker 1: hide these red leg warmers with my coat, which obviously
Speaker 1: didn't work very well. But I was always fascinated by
Speaker 1: people who could just be themselves and not worry about
Speaker 1: what other people thought. And when I started at high school,
Speaker 1: I met someone who became my best friend, and we
Speaker 1: can call her Clara. She was different as well. She'd
Speaker 1: come from the south of England, she had a different accent,
Speaker 1: she wore stilettos, I wore sneakers. We were quite different,
Speaker 1: and yet I was just attracted to her defiance and
Speaker 1: her knowing who she was and the way that she acted,
Speaker 1: and we had some really fun times. So there was
Speaker 1: that element of being fascinated by people who could just
Speaker 1: be themselves.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it seems like your desire to obey, to
Speaker 2: comply it persisted into adulthood. So do you mind telling
Speaker 2: me the story of your visit to the emergency room?
Speaker 1: Yes? Absolutely so. When I moved from the UK to
Speaker 1: the US, there was one day I was experiencing some
Speaker 1: really severe central chest pain, and as a former physician,
Speaker 1: I was obviously very worried and concerned. So I went
Speaker 1: to the emergency room and they immediately put me through
Speaker 1: triach and everything was fine, luckily, and the pain was
Speaker 1: even subsiding, so I was really relieved, and I thought
Speaker 1: I was going to be discharged and I could go home.
Speaker 1: But then the doctor said, before we let you go,
Speaker 1: and you need to have a CT scan, and so
Speaker 1: I asked why, and she said, oh, we want to
Speaker 1: make sure you don't have a blood clot in the lungs.
Speaker 1: And with my medical training, I knew I did not
Speaker 1: have the type of pain that she was looking for
Speaker 1: and that I wouldn't have a blood clot in the lungs.
Speaker 1: And so I should have said no to having a
Speaker 1: CT scan because it's about seventy times more on average
Speaker 1: the amount of radiation than an X ray. It's still small,
Speaker 1: but ionizing radiation can put you at risk of cancer
Speaker 1: many years later, so why take the risk. I wanted
Speaker 1: to say no. I should have said no, and yet
Speaker 1: I found it very difficult to tell the doctor I
Speaker 1: did not want to have the CT scan that she
Speaker 1: had recommended, and so I ended up going along with it.
Speaker 1: And I regretted it so much because that was a
Speaker 1: situation that was very safe for me to say no,
Speaker 1: I would rather not have that, and I struggled with it.
Speaker 2: I resonate so much with this story, because I get very,
Speaker 2: very anxious about pushing back. And it's so interesting you
Speaker 2: share this because, like you said, it was such a
Speaker 2: safe space for you, you know. And so when I
Speaker 2: zoom out, I think, well, if Sunita, this physician has
Speaker 2: trouble saying no to a medical professional on empirical grounds,
Speaker 2: I mean, like, what hope is there for the rest
Speaker 2: of us? Right? I mean, this is clearly a problem.
Speaker 2: So with that said, let's take a step back for
Speaker 2: a moment. How is it that you define defiance? What
Speaker 2: is it?
Speaker 1: When you look at the Oxford English Dictionary definition of defiance,
Speaker 1: they say to defy is to challenge the power of
Speaker 1: another person boldly and openly. And I'm not one to disagree,
Speaker 1: as you know, especially with the Oxford English Dictionary.
Speaker 2: I know, how dare you defy the definition?
Speaker 1: How dare I define so meta? But that definition I
Speaker 1: think is too narrow in it doesn't honor our agency.
Speaker 1: And so my definition of defiance is that to defy
Speaker 1: is to act in accordance with your true values when
Speaker 1: there is pressure to do otherwise. And that reframes defiance
Speaker 1: from this negative connotation to actually a proactive, positive force
Speaker 1: in society, because if we think about when we comply,
Speaker 1: when we defy, all those individual acts, they create the
Speaker 1: society that we live in. So it affects what treatment
Speaker 1: we get, It affects our workplaces, whether we speak up
Speaker 1: and say something when somebody does something inappropriate. It affects
Speaker 1: our communities, affects our lives. And that's why I'm so
Speaker 1: passionate about defiance.
Speaker 2: So on the surface, this is a very compelling definition,
Speaker 2: but I want to get more clarity on what is
Speaker 2: meant by true values in practice, because most of us
Speaker 2: don't walk around with a firm grasp or at least
Speaker 2: a conscious grasp of what our quote true values are.
Speaker 2: So how is it that we go about establishing them
Speaker 2: in this context?
Speaker 1: So the first question that we have to ask when
Speaker 1: we want to defy is who am I? What do
Speaker 1: I stand for? And we do that work well before
Speaker 1: so of a moment of defiance. And when I ask
Speaker 1: my executive students to think about what their values are,
Speaker 1: I ask them to write them down and explain where
Speaker 1: those values came from and why they are so important.
Speaker 1: And these students, they come up with the similar values
Speaker 1: year after year. They end up being quite universal values.
Speaker 1: That often come down to sort of one word like integrity, compassion, equality.
Speaker 1: These are the types of values I see again and again,
Speaker 1: and the reason I ask the students to write them
Speaker 1: down and explain why they are so important is because
Speaker 1: the research shows that our behavior, our intended behaviors, are
Speaker 1: more likely to follow when we know exactly what our
Speaker 1: values are, because one of the biggest gaps is between
Speaker 1: who we think we are and what we actually do.
Speaker 1: So putting those values into action, so clarifying our values
Speaker 1: is just really important. And actually there's some work that
Speaker 1: shows that we also have a lower biological stress reaction
Speaker 1: if we know our values and we're acting in alignment
Speaker 1: with them. So everybody wants lower cort assault, right, So
Speaker 1: that's a good thing to know what your values are. So,
Speaker 1: for example, with the CT scan, what are my values
Speaker 1: in that particular situation? Is my value just listening to
Speaker 1: the doctor and obeying the doctor? I don't think so.
Speaker 1: If your value, your ethical moral stance, comes from just
Speaker 1: listening to the person in authority, perhaps your boss, and
Speaker 1: assessing your actions from how well you obey your boss,
Speaker 1: it can lead you really blind to the greater consequences
Speaker 1: of your action. So we need to think in every situation,
Speaker 1: what is it that I stand for? And if we
Speaker 1: do feel that something is going against our values, think
Speaker 1: about this is the time now for me to speak up.
Speaker 1: This is the time now for me to say something.
Speaker 2: Let's take that healthcare scenario again though with the doctor,
Speaker 2: which is it wasn't just about the value of listening
Speaker 2: to the doctor. I feel like there was something much
Speaker 2: deeper going on, which is, you're someone that values kindness
Speaker 2: and how you make other people feel about themselves, right,
Speaker 2: Like I know you to be a deeply kind person.
Speaker 2: Surely that was weighing in as well, which is you
Speaker 2: didn't want to undermine this person's authority, make them maybe
Speaker 2: question themselves, right, And so do I value my health
Speaker 2: in this moment over the psychological comfort of the physician
Speaker 2: who's ordering this exam for me?
Speaker 1: I agree with you, And so that what I call
Speaker 1: insinuation anxiety, That anxiety of not wanting to send a
Speaker 1: signal of distrust to another person can be really powerful
Speaker 1: and it keeps us silent. It really is an aversive
Speaker 1: emotional state. When we become so concerned with offending the
Speaker 1: other person and we become mute. We have these relationship concerns,
Speaker 1: and what my research shows is that we can have
Speaker 1: them even in one off situations with strangers with no
Speaker 1: power dynamics. So you can imagine how hard it is
Speaker 1: when you're in that medical scenario with somebody who is
Speaker 1: supposed to have your best interests at heart, and we
Speaker 1: don't want to insinuate that our physicians or even our
Speaker 1: co workers or friends or family are not trustworthy. That's
Speaker 1: just too hard to do. So there's one very nice
Speaker 1: example of a woman. She's an academic, she's a young woman,
Speaker 1: and she's on this committee with four senior men looking
Speaker 1: at grant applications, and when one applicant is being discussed,
Speaker 1: she felt like they were going with gossip rather than
Speaker 1: the credentials of the applicant, and she wanted to say
Speaker 1: something because she didn't think this was right or fair,
Speaker 1: and so that went against her values, and it could
Speaker 1: cause harm as well. It could cause harm to the
Speaker 1: applicant's family, like we don't know what extended harm it
Speaker 1: could cause, and she wanted to say something. And then
Speaker 1: she came out of the meeting and she said the
Speaker 1: one thing that she wanted to say was the one
Speaker 1: thing she could not say, and she having met those
Speaker 1: people for the first time, she just did not want
Speaker 1: to insinuate that they didn't know what they was doing
Speaker 1: or that they lacked integrity, and so it was just
Speaker 1: so difficult for her to do so. And I think
Speaker 1: these are the situations that we face so often, that
Speaker 1: we know exactly what we want to do, but something
Speaker 1: prevents us from doing it.
Speaker 2: There's such an irony to insinuation anxiety. Right, I don't
Speaker 2: want to insinuate that they're not acting with integrity, and
Speaker 2: so I will not act with integrity and not raise
Speaker 2: this very important issue, right. And I say that with
Speaker 2: such humility because I to do this all the time,
Speaker 2: right to save other people's feelings. I won't make the
Speaker 2: right ethical choice in some situations because I'm so in
Speaker 2: tent for them not to feel like I'm challenging their
Speaker 2: moral character.
Speaker 1: Yes, and that's the thing that stays with us, that
Speaker 1: feeling of you know, we have that tension that we
Speaker 1: want to say something, and if we don't and we
Speaker 1: let it go, then it really erodes our sense of
Speaker 1: self and who we are and are we rarely a
Speaker 1: person with integrity, you know, So it is very important
Speaker 1: to learn how to say something in that situation in
Speaker 1: a way that's comfortable for us and with far less
Speaker 1: ants than we used to have.
Speaker 2: There's a well known study in psychology that argues that
Speaker 2: complicity is the norm right and defiance is the exception.
Speaker 2: Do you mind telling our listeners about that study?
Speaker 1: Sure?
Speaker 2: So.
Speaker 1: Stanley Milgram he conducted his now infamous studies in the
Speaker 1: early nineteen sixties at Yell, and he was really fascinated
Speaker 1: by sort of the claim from Nazis after World War
Speaker 1: Two that they were just following orders when they committed
Speaker 1: war crimes, and he really wanted to look at whether
Speaker 1: this was a psychological reality or not for human beings.
Speaker 1: So Milgram brought in subjects and you asked them to
Speaker 1: read out these word pairs to somebody else in another room,
Speaker 1: and if the person in the other room couldn't repeat them,
Speaker 1: the participant had to administer an electric shock and increase
Speaker 1: the shock level by fifteen volts every single time they
Speaker 1: got something wrong. If they protested, the experimenter would give
Speaker 1: them some prompts to tell them to continue that please
Speaker 1: go on. The experiment requires you to continue. It's absolutely
Speaker 1: essential that you continue, and you have no choice. You
Speaker 1: must go on. Now, shocks weren't actually being administered to
Speaker 1: the other person. The other person in the room was
Speaker 1: an actor, but the participant didn't know that. And they
Speaker 1: were asked to start off with fifteen volts, which is
Speaker 1: basically harmless. But the board went all the way up
Speaker 1: to four hundred and fifty volts, where it was labeled
Speaker 1: with three x's and danger severe shock. And what he
Speaker 1: found was that even though most psychiatrists predicted that hardly
Speaker 1: anyone would go up to the top voltage of four
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty volts, sixty five percent of participants did.
Speaker 1: They went up to the most severe shock.
Speaker 2: You know. I should note that one criticism of the
Speaker 2: study is that the the sample size is very small.
Speaker 2: But let's assume that this is a legitimate result. I'm
Speaker 2: curious to hear, Sunita, how Milgrim interpreted the results of
Speaker 2: this experiment, and how you, through your lens studying defiance,
Speaker 2: interpret these results.
Speaker 1: So Milgram was actually shocked by these exactly.
Speaker 2: No pun please, I want you to use that word.
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, We're gonna have to continue in the conversation.
Speaker 1: Milgram was actually shocked by these results because he did
Speaker 1: not think that people would go up to the four
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty volt level. So he was actually really shocked,
Speaker 1: and he wanted to repeat different variations of the experiments
Speaker 1: to really find out what led people to be so obedient.
Speaker 1: The way that I interpreted it is that the subjects
Speaker 1: that were obedient to authority, they were showing some signs
Speaker 1: of being uncomfortable, so nervous, laughter, swearing, stuttering, sweating, asking
Speaker 1: the experimenter whether this was okay, And those signs of
Speaker 1: tension to me, really stood out from the subjects because
Speaker 1: it showed me that they weren't completely obeying the experimenter.
Speaker 1: Like what Mulgram had described was this aspect of being
Speaker 1: in an agentic state, in that the participants were following
Speaker 1: orders because the experiment had told them so. But if
Speaker 1: they had given all their agency to the experimenter, they
Speaker 1: wouldn't have felt such tension.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and hearing, I mean the expressions that you just described,
Speaker 2: I'm hearing distress right, Like, those are signs of distress,
Speaker 2: and that's meaningful, and that speaks to the fact that,
Speaker 2: of course there was some inner humanity that maybe didn't
Speaker 2: express itself in the ultimate behavior, which is to say no,
Speaker 2: I'm not going to increase the vultures level more. But
Speaker 2: it's not nothing, right, It's still meaningful to me.
Speaker 1: I really recognize those signs of tension. I just thought
Speaker 1: those subjects are like me. They want to defy, they
Speaker 1: just don't know how to defy. And that is what
Speaker 1: really captured me about Milgram's experiments, was that how can
Speaker 1: we learn how to defy?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, So we talked about one of the major
Speaker 2: drivers of obedience, which is insinuation anxiety. Right, we don't
Speaker 2: want to signal that we have a negative opinion of
Speaker 2: another person, or that we have apprehension or worry or
Speaker 2: we don't trust them. What are other drivers of obedience? Like,
Speaker 2: what are other reasons why we have a really hard
Speaker 2: time saying no or standing up for what we believe in.
Speaker 1: So one is this enormous pressure to go along with
Speaker 1: other people. One factor can be insinuation anxiety, or as
Speaker 1: fearing the consequences that we're going to lose a relationship
Speaker 1: or a job. So there's what are the consequences of
Speaker 1: defying in this situation? And then once we decide to defy,
Speaker 1: we don't know exactly how to do it. We have
Speaker 1: been so trained in compliance from a young age, and
Speaker 1: we've become so socialized to comply and to obey that
Speaker 1: we don't have the skill set for defiance. We don't
Speaker 1: know how to do it. We never get trained in
Speaker 1: how to be defiant and speak up when it matters,
Speaker 1: and so is that training that's missing from our lives.
Speaker 2: After the break, Sunita gives us a lesson in defiance
Speaker 2: one oh one. We'll be back in a moment with
Speaker 2: a slight change of plans, talking about how hard it
Speaker 2: can be to stand up for ourselves, to set boundaries
Speaker 2: and just say no. My guest, Uneatha knows the struggle
Speaker 2: of defiance all too well. It's something she's been plagued
Speaker 2: with her whole life, but she's found a way through it.
Speaker 2: She's developed a simple framework to help us navigate those
Speaker 2: tough moments, the ones where we hesitate, where we wish
Speaker 2: we had just the right words, where we want to
Speaker 2: push back but aren't sure how. Her framework has five stages, So.
Speaker 1: The stages of defiance are things that we can start
Speaker 1: to recognize, and we don't always go through them in
Speaker 1: a linear fashion. We might skip a stage or go
Speaker 1: back and forth, but they're really useful to know as
Speaker 1: a framework for how we can defy. So the first
Speaker 1: stage is this tension. This is what we often feel
Speaker 1: when we're in a situation where we're being pulled between
Speaker 1: two forces. One where we're expected to do something by
Speaker 1: either another person, authority, a peer, or just expectations all societie.
Speaker 1: You know, there's this expectation of us and then what
Speaker 1: we believe is the right thing to do. Whenever we're
Speaker 1: in that situation, we feel some tension. I often describe
Speaker 1: it as our resistance to resistance. It's really telling us
Speaker 1: that we want to defy, but we actually resist it.
Speaker 2: And can you describe what that tension feels like for listeners?
Speaker 2: Like what am I feeling in my body when that happens?
Speaker 1: So it's different for each one of us, and we
Speaker 1: can get to know what is the telltale sign for us.
Speaker 1: So for some people they feel unease in the stomach.
Speaker 1: I definitely feel that. For others they get a headache,
Speaker 1: or they feel their voice being constricted or their throat
Speaker 1: becoming tight. Other people feel their heart rate going up,
Speaker 1: dry mouth, So it manifests in different ways, and it's
Speaker 1: really useful to know what it feels like for you.
Speaker 1: If you can figure out this is Oh, I've felt
Speaker 1: this feeling before.
Speaker 2: See that you've literally just described every physiological response I
Speaker 2: have watching the news in twenty twenty five.
Speaker 1: So thank you.
Speaker 2: Actually try all of them. Is that one of the options.
Speaker 1: That you can have all of them? Yes, you can
Speaker 1: have all of these.
Speaker 2: Nausea is that one?
Speaker 1: I am? Okay, that's one of them. So just really knowing, like, oh,
Speaker 1: I recognize this feeling. I've had this feeling before, and
Speaker 1: that's actually Stage two is acknowledging that this is going on,
Speaker 1: because so often we disregard it. We think it's not
Speaker 1: worth our doubt. We think that the other person must
Speaker 1: know better, like when I'm having my CT scan, Oh,
Speaker 1: they must know something that I don't know, you know,
Speaker 1: So we often disregard it go along with the confidence
Speaker 1: of the other person. And that's a shame because that
Speaker 1: tension is actually a warning sign to us that we
Speaker 1: might need to defy. So paying attention to it and
Speaker 1: acknowledging it is stage two. So just like recognizing I've
Speaker 1: had this before, this is something where I'm expected to
Speaker 1: do something that I don't think is the right thing
Speaker 1: to do. Then stage three is the really critical stage
Speaker 1: because it's just telling somebody else. It's externalizing, vocalizing to
Speaker 1: someone else other than yourself that you're not comfortable with this,
Speaker 1: And that stage is so critical because if you can
Speaker 1: do that, it means you're more likely to get to
Speaker 1: stage five because you can't go back in time and say, oh,
Speaker 1: you were fine with this because you're too much cognitive dissonance.
Speaker 1: Now you've told somebody else that you're not fine with this,
Speaker 1: And in this situation, all you're doing is clarifying how
Speaker 1: you feel, so either I'm uncomfortable with this, or asking
Speaker 1: what do you mean by that? Sort of testing the waters.
Speaker 1: You're still in that position where you're not saying anything
Speaker 1: that's confrontational. You could just be acting with curiosity. So
Speaker 1: if somebody has said something inappropriate, can you clarify what
Speaker 1: you mean? Have you considered doing this? So they're just
Speaker 1: questions that you can ask in that situation.
Speaker 2: You know, I mentioned that this is a personal resonance.
Speaker 2: I was actually misdiagno with juvenile rheumatoid arthritis for seven
Speaker 2: years because you know, I think we were afraid to
Speaker 2: speak up and kind of challenge authorities, right, And so
Speaker 2: these days I'm I'm the most curious patient you'll ever meet.
Speaker 2: I Am every doctor's worst nightmare.
Speaker 1: So curiosity not confrontation at this point, just I'm not
Speaker 1: comfortable with this. Can you clarify a little bit more
Speaker 1: for me? Or if somebody makes an inappropriate remark, what
Speaker 1: do you mean by that?
Speaker 2: So to summarize so far, that we've gone through three stages, right,
Speaker 2: So we have tension and feeling that tension, then acknowledging
Speaker 2: to ourselves that we're feeling that tension or discomfort, and
Speaker 2: then the third stage is escalation, right where we're vocalizing
Speaker 2: that discomfort to others, thereby cementing it in the world
Speaker 2: in some way. Right, we can't take it back, we
Speaker 2: make it clear. It's an indelible ink somewhere in someone's mind.
Speaker 2: What is stage four?
Speaker 1: Stage four is now your threat of non compliance, So
Speaker 1: saying you cannot do that, So somebody has an expectation
Speaker 1: for you to take the CT scan do something you
Speaker 1: don't want to do, you're just basically telling them that
Speaker 1: you're not going to comply. At this point, you've gone
Speaker 1: from asking questions putting it out there that you're not comfortable,
Speaker 1: and now is I cannot do that, and then the
Speaker 1: fifth stage, the actual act of defiance.
Speaker 2: Yeah, do you mind walking me through an example from
Speaker 2: your life where you put some of these stages in action.
Speaker 1: So absolutely, having failed with the CT scan quite spectacularly,
Speaker 1: I actually carried that with me and thought about it
Speaker 1: a lot. What would I have preferred to have done
Speaker 1: in this situation, because this probably was going to happen again,
Speaker 1: And so it did. About a year later, I had
Speaker 1: some pain in my shoulder and it got pretty bad
Speaker 1: in that I couldn't move my arm at times, I
Speaker 1: couldn't do simple routine tasks like getting dressed, and so
Speaker 1: I decided I needed some physical therapy, and so I
Speaker 1: looked up how I could get a physical therapy referral,
Speaker 1: and I needed to go and see a doctor. So
Speaker 1: I went to the clinic. I immediately felt like I
Speaker 1: was on some kind of conveyor belt. There was like
Speaker 1: a forest of paperwork to fill out and hand over,
Speaker 1: bank details, all these things. And then eventually somebody called
Speaker 1: out my name and I started walking behind them, and
Speaker 1: I looked up and at the end of this long corridor,
Speaker 1: I could see a big sign that said X ray,
Speaker 1: and I kind of laughed in my head. I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: it would be so funny if they took me for
Speaker 1: an X ray before I went to see the doctor.
Speaker 1: And then we started walking more and more towards that sign,
Speaker 1: and so I stopped and I said, where are we going?
Speaker 1: Are we going to see the doctor? And she said, oh,
Speaker 1: we're going to get your X ray? And I said, oh,
Speaker 1: my gosh, you're like dajah x ray. I hadn't seen
Speaker 1: the doctor yet. And she said, of all new patients
Speaker 1: have an X ray before seeing the doctor. And I
Speaker 1: was astounded because being a physician, again, I had been
Speaker 1: trained that the way that you practice medicine is to
Speaker 1: always see the patient first. So this stunned me and
Speaker 1: I just said, but I haven't seen the doctor yet.
Speaker 1: And she then looked at me and she said, are
Speaker 1: you refusing an X ray? And I could feel that.
Speaker 3: I mean, you're like, hell, yes, I found that tension.
Speaker 3: I recognize that tension. I acknowledged it. I didn't even
Speaker 3: ask any questions at this point.
Speaker 2: I just said, yes, I am amazing.
Speaker 1: And so she took me back to my seat. I
Speaker 1: sat there. She had no idea what to do with me,
Speaker 1: and during that time I squirmed a little bit. I thought,
Speaker 1: oh my goodness, I'm being the difficult patient. I got
Speaker 1: called in to see other healthcare professionals. They opened the
Speaker 1: file each time, and each time they would say no
Speaker 1: x ray. I would say no, no, no x ray.
Speaker 1: And eventually I saw the doctor. He opened the file
Speaker 1: and he looked at me and he said no x ray.
Speaker 1: I went no. The way I got taught medicine is
Speaker 1: that you see the patient first, and then if I
Speaker 1: need the X ray, I'll have the x ray. And
Speaker 1: I said, you haven't examined me yet, and he kind
Speaker 1: of hurried over and sort of poked my shoulder a
Speaker 1: little bit. He didn't even check the full range of movement.
Speaker 1: And then he went back to his seat and he
Speaker 1: said you have to have that x ray and I
Speaker 1: said why, Like, what do you think's wrong with me?
Speaker 1: And he said, I want to make sure you don't
Speaker 1: have anything bony going on And I said bony? What
Speaker 1: do you mean and he said bone cancer? And I
Speaker 1: still raised my eyebrows and I said you think I
Speaker 1: have bone cancer? And he was like, oh no, no,
Speaker 1: no no, and then he sort of looked at his desk.
Speaker 1: He ramped his pen on it and then he said
Speaker 1: this is how we practice medicine here, and we just
Speaker 1: went silent because we both knew that was not an
Speaker 1: appropriate thing to say. And in the end I managed
Speaker 1: to say, listen, I would really like some physical therapy
Speaker 1: because I think I have inflammation, and if that physical
Speaker 1: therapy doesn't get rid of it, I'll come back in
Speaker 1: a month to six weeks and I'll have that X ray.
Speaker 1: So he gave me the referral. I felt proud and
Speaker 1: liberated and I left that room and I was so
Speaker 1: happy I did not comply just because of that pressure.
Speaker 2: I want to talk about the role of power plays
Speaker 2: and all of this because it feels like there's no
Speaker 2: conversation about defiance without talking about power dynamics. How do
Speaker 2: you think about that tension? Right, So it's much easier
Speaker 2: for a boss to defy in the workplace versus a
Speaker 2: junior employee.
Speaker 1: I think that makes a great difference. So we do
Speaker 1: need to be aware of power dynamic and also what
Speaker 1: I call the defiance hierarchy, in that some people are
Speaker 1: allowed to be defiant and others face much greater consequences,
Speaker 1: much greater costs for being defiant, and we need to
Speaker 1: be aware of that, because the people that experience those
Speaker 1: greater costs of defiance are often the ones that also
Speaker 1: need to define more often, because the expectation for them
Speaker 1: to comply and be subservient is far greater. And so yes,
Speaker 1: they have this double wammy of we expect you to
Speaker 1: be compliant and so they need to be defined more often,
Speaker 1: and then there's more of a backlash and more costs. So,
Speaker 1: in other words, it is a privilege to be able
Speaker 1: to defy, and we need to afford that privilege to
Speaker 1: everyone and be really cognizant of who we allow to
Speaker 1: defy and the consequences that we give out to people
Speaker 1: that we think at being defiant in a way that
Speaker 1: we might not like.
Speaker 2: I'm wondering if we could do a rapid fire situation
Speaker 2: where I propose it hypothetical to you and I hear
Speaker 2: about at least the first step you would take to defy.
Speaker 2: So you've just received a haircut. You look in the mirror.
Speaker 2: It's a horrifying scene. Your hairdresser asks you, Sumita, do
Speaker 2: you like this haircut? Wow? It looks it looks so
Speaker 2: modern and cool, But you are worried about expressing your
Speaker 2: true beliefs. About the matter, right, You're you don't want
Speaker 2: to insinuate anything, but you now have to wear a
Speaker 2: hat for the next three months until said haircut grows out.
Speaker 2: What is your approach to this situation? And by the way,
Speaker 2: this is your longtime hairdresser, so like your loyal customer,
Speaker 2: and you care about them, and you know you don't
Speaker 2: want to see this relationship end.
Speaker 1: So I have actually been in this situation.
Speaker 2: Nice, nice, So tell me what the defiance expert did.
Speaker 1: Okay, point in my life, I was deeply upset with
Speaker 1: the haircut because it was nothing like what I wanted.
Speaker 1: And this is classic insinuation anxiety. That we're sat on
Speaker 1: the chair and it's like, oh, trust me, and the
Speaker 1: cutting and the cutting, and you're thinking, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: how can you express that? How can you express that
Speaker 1: before it's too late? What are you telling me is
Speaker 1: that it's already too late. Right, it's already been cut
Speaker 1: and you don't particularly like it, But a lot of
Speaker 1: us do in that situation. At least if you like me, maybe,
Speaker 1: if you like you's probably sort of pay and tip
Speaker 1: and then leave. And in one situation, I did do that,
Speaker 1: and I actually went home and I cried because it
Speaker 1: was asymmetrical. It was awful. And then I went back
Speaker 1: the next day and I said, you need to fix it.
Speaker 1: So I did do that. One of the things about
Speaker 1: defiance is the fact that it is this proactive positive thoughts,
Speaker 1: and if we go back to the deaf is to devise,
Speaker 1: it is to act in accordance with your true values
Speaker 1: when there is pressure to do otherwise. So there's not
Speaker 1: a lot of value at stake here. So there's certain
Speaker 1: situations that we can practice our definancing, especially if you
Speaker 1: want to maintain the relationship, because it's so easy to
Speaker 1: just sort of say I'm never going to go back
Speaker 1: to that person again, because we don't communicate, just say, here,
Speaker 1: you know, this is actually not exactly what I like.
Speaker 1: Is there anything you can do to make it more
Speaker 1: the way that I would feel happy with? And have
Speaker 1: that communication with your hairdresser. But we can start practicing
Speaker 1: in these situations. For other situations where our values are
Speaker 1: actually violated, we can practice in the restaurant though, if
Speaker 1: we don't like the food or the food is not
Speaker 1: cooked the way we want all As I remember once
Speaker 1: after having my son, and it was the first time
Speaker 1: I've been out in a long time with a group
Speaker 1: of other women that also had and the food for
Speaker 1: all of us when it came it was so salty,
Speaker 1: and we were all complaining about it. And then somebody
Speaker 1: came around and said, is everything okay? And we all
Speaker 1: looked up and we said, yes, everything's fine.
Speaker 2: Even though this is as you're like guzzling glasses of water.
Speaker 1: So we cannot stop practicing for defiance in those situations
Speaker 1: which are kind of low cost. And yes, nothing great
Speaker 1: is being damaged and values are not being compromised hugely,
Speaker 1: but we can just practice defiance muscles and build them
Speaker 1: up in these situations.
Speaker 2: We talked about stage five being the active defiance, and
Speaker 2: I want to add a stage six, which is the
Speaker 2: aftermath of defiance where you know, we had even cross
Speaker 2: on the show. We can get mired in so much
Speaker 2: negative chatter in our minds, regret, people being disappointed with us,
Speaker 2: angry with us, let down us, being anxious about whether
Speaker 2: now our job's at stake, our relationships at stake, and
Speaker 2: so how can we grapple with those negative emotions and
Speaker 2: stay resolute in our convictions when we're getting so many
Speaker 2: signals to the contrary.
Speaker 1: Yeah, also a fantastic question. And there's a few things
Speaker 1: here that come into play. One is, when we decide
Speaker 1: to defy, we need to make sure that we have
Speaker 1: those five elements ready for our true no, that we
Speaker 1: do have the capacity and we have the knowledge and
Speaker 1: understanding of the situation and the freedom to say no
Speaker 1: before we give our true no, Because if we do
Speaker 1: really understand that, then we know what the costs are
Speaker 1: going to be. Is it going to be safe? Is
Speaker 1: it going to be effective? Is the two questions that
Speaker 1: we ask when we're assessing the situation for defiance.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we so rarely get resolution in the short term.
Speaker 2: We don't know how our acts of defiance will play
Speaker 2: out over time, right, Like maybe in the immediate aftermath,
Speaker 2: our bosses quite nice and solicitous, and then six months
Speaker 2: later suddenly you get a layoff notice. Right, So we
Speaker 2: have to be we have to somehow find a way
Speaker 2: to be comfortable with that uncertainty. And I think that's
Speaker 2: part of the agitation, right, That's part of what you're
Speaker 2: signing up for when you defy, is a lot of uncertainty.
Speaker 1: There is that, But we also need to know, since
Speaker 1: you're talking about the negative emotions and the chatter in
Speaker 1: our heads. We also need to assess the cost for compliance,
Speaker 1: because it takes a great toll on us. If we
Speaker 1: constantly disregarding our values and bowing our head to other
Speaker 1: people and we can't be out authentic selves, then that
Speaker 1: takes a toll on us. It increases chronic stress, and
Speaker 1: it increases burnout, dissatisfaction, even inflammation. So it's affecting us emotionally.
Speaker 1: It's affecting us with that chatter negative emotions in our head.
Speaker 1: It's affecting us psychologically, spiritually, and even physically. So we
Speaker 1: do need to be aware of the cost of compliance
Speaker 1: as well as the cost of defiance. Yes, there still
Speaker 1: might be consequences, but that's different from the tension and
Speaker 1: the anxiety and the stress that you were experiencing before
Speaker 1: when you have to go against your values.
Speaker 2: That is a fantastic answer, because I think in this
Speaker 2: moment I wrongly believed, Oh, the counterfactual world is neutral, right,
Speaker 2: it's either you defy or it's neutral. But actually I
Speaker 2: forgot about the psychic risks associated with conformity and compliance.
Speaker 2: And like you said, one of the telltale signs that
Speaker 2: you need to defy is this physiological expression of tension, right,
Speaker 2: So who wants to live with that chronic tension? That
Speaker 2: that's not good for you either. So, and there's such
Speaker 2: a hopeful message contained in what you just said. You know,
Speaker 2: it's very tempting to think in terms of absolutes, right,
Speaker 2: like I'm a defiant person or I'm a compliant person.
Speaker 2: I think we get type cast a lot as kids, right,
Speaker 2: or like we're one way or the other. But you're
Speaker 2: very intentional to describe defiance as more of a muscle
Speaker 2: or a skill that we can cultivate over time.
Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely, So I always say that defiance is a practice,
Speaker 1: not a personality. And this kind of early on, but
Speaker 1: it didn't really register until later in my life. I
Speaker 1: was walking home from the grocery store with my mom
Speaker 1: and I was about seven or eight years old, and
Speaker 1: we had our ricketye shopping cart that my mom was
Speaker 1: sort of rolling behind us, and we were walking through
Speaker 1: just a very narrow alleyway and we were confronted by
Speaker 1: a group of teenage boys and they blocked our path
Speaker 1: and they started shouting out some racist things and go
Speaker 1: back home. And my mom, she's quite petite, she's about
Speaker 1: four foot ten, at the most, and she was wearing
Speaker 1: her blue sarre and she had her hair sort of
Speaker 1: neatly back in one platte at the back, and I
Speaker 1: had very neatly put her in the compliant box. And
Speaker 1: I never thought for a moment that she could have
Speaker 1: the ability to defy. But that day she did something
Speaker 1: very different. When we got confronted by the boys, she
Speaker 1: stopped and she looked at them and she said, what
Speaker 1: do you mean? And it was just in a quiet
Speaker 1: voice that she said this. At the start, I whispered
Speaker 1: to her, come on, maa, and she shook my arm off,
Speaker 1: and I remember that so well. She said no, and
Speaker 1: she looked down at me for a second. Then she
Speaker 1: put one hand on her hip and she looked back
Speaker 1: at the boys and she said it again, this time
Speaker 1: a little bit louder, what do you mean? And she
Speaker 1: looked directly at them, and the boys were just silent,
Speaker 1: and they started looking at each other, and so she said, oh,
Speaker 1: you think you're big, strong boys, Yeah, clever boys, big
Speaker 1: clever boys. And they just didn't know what to say.
Speaker 2: I'm so proud of your mom. That's amazing, I know.
Speaker 1: And then one of them just said, let's go and
Speaker 1: they dispersed, and I just could not believe this happened.
Speaker 1: My mom grabbed the cart and she started walking as
Speaker 1: fast as possible. And that moment stayed with me because
Speaker 1: it showed me so many things, And it showed me
Speaker 1: that defiance isn't a personality, it's a skill set. If
Speaker 1: we have a self concept of being compliant, it doesn't
Speaker 1: mean that we can't be defiant. We just have to
Speaker 1: learn it. So even if compliance is our default, it
Speaker 1: doesn't have to be our destiny. The other thing it
Speaker 1: showed me is that what I've found with the defiance
Speaker 1: is that it really transforms us. We can become more ourselves,
Speaker 1: we can act more in alignment with our values. But
Speaker 1: it also has an effect on the people that observe it,
Speaker 1: this ripple effect or what I call the defiance domino effect,
Speaker 1: in that it only takes one person to start a reaction.
Speaker 1: That makes a great difference. When I talk about society
Speaker 1: being built up of these moments of compliance and defiance,
Speaker 1: that is what is happening in that alleyway. Because ideally,
Speaker 1: what I hope if I make defines successible to everyone,
Speaker 1: that we build a society where one of those teens
Speaker 1: would speak up to their peers, so my immigrant mother
Speaker 1: wouldn't have to. That is what I hopeful.
Speaker 2: Hey, thanks so much for listening. Do you have a
Speaker 2: story of defiance, maybe a time when things went surprisingly
Speaker 2: well or completely off the rails. I'd love to hear
Speaker 2: about it. I've just launched a free newsletter called Change
Speaker 2: with Maya Shunker, and this week's post is all about defiance.
Speaker 2: I'd love to hear your stories in the comments under
Speaker 2: the post. You can sign up for the newsletter at
Speaker 2: changewthmaya dot com or click on the link in our
Speaker 2: show notes and join me next week when we hear
Speaker 2: from science writer Olga has On about her year long
Speaker 2: experiment to change her personality. There were kind of along
Speaker 2: the way that not only was I not thrilled with
Speaker 2: my personality, other people were not thrilled with it either.
Speaker 2: See you next week for Extreme Makeover Personality Edition. A
Speaker 2: Slight Change of Plans is created, written and executive produced
Speaker 2: by me Maya Shunker. The Slight Change family includes our
Speaker 2: showrunner Tyler Green, our senior editor Kate Parkinson Morgan, our
Speaker 2: producers Britney Cronin and Megan Lubn and our sound engineer
Speaker 2: Erica Huang, Louis Scara wrote our delightful theme song, and
Speaker 2: Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. A Slight Change of
Speaker 2: Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries, so big thanks
Speaker 2: to everyone there, and of course a very special thanks
Speaker 2: to Jimmy Lee. You can follow A Slight Change of
Speaker 2: Plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Shunker. See you next week.
Speaker 3: The