WEBVTT - How to Say No 0:00:14.956 --> 0:00:15.396 Pushkin. 0:00:20.236 --> 0:00:24.196 Hey, slight changers, Maya here. My new newsletter, which I'm 0:00:24.236 --> 0:00:27.356 so excited about, is out now. It's called Change with 0:00:27.436 --> 0:00:30.636 Maya Shunker. It's totally free and you can sign up 0:00:30.716 --> 0:00:33.716 at Changewmaya dot com or check out the link in 0:00:33.756 --> 0:00:36.916 our show notes. The reason I started this newsletter is 0:00:36.956 --> 0:00:39.916 that I'm so excited about building a community with all 0:00:39.956 --> 0:00:42.916 of you around how we can navigate change with more 0:00:42.956 --> 0:00:47.276 wisdom and with more hope. I'll be sharing personal updates, 0:00:47.356 --> 0:00:50.516 links to what I'm reading or watching lately, exciting new 0:00:50.596 --> 0:00:54.476 science about change, and my top takeaways for my conversations 0:00:54.476 --> 0:00:57.836 on this show, with some behind the scenes action. I 0:00:57.876 --> 0:00:59.916 hope you'll sign up and spread the word with your 0:00:59.956 --> 0:01:04.436 friends again. You can sign up at Changewithmaya dot com. Okay, 0:01:04.596 --> 0:01:10.436 now onto the episode. 0:01:16.236 --> 0:01:19.316 I remember asking my dad at one point, what does 0:01:19.356 --> 0:01:24.036 my name Sanita mean? And he said in Sanskript, Sanita 0:01:24.156 --> 0:01:28.596 means good. And that's the kind of messages I received. 0:01:28.676 --> 0:01:31.396 You know, to be good, to fit in, be polite, 0:01:31.956 --> 0:01:34.956 don't make a scene, don't question authority. And I think 0:01:35.796 --> 0:01:38.796 many of us have had that kind of upbringing or 0:01:39.156 --> 0:01:42.276 messages that they're expected to comply. 0:01:43.476 --> 0:01:47.356 Sunita Saw is a doctor turned organizational psychologist and a 0:01:47.396 --> 0:01:51.196 professor at Cornell University. She studies why it can be 0:01:51.356 --> 0:01:54.996 so hard to say no. Sunita says that if you 0:01:55.036 --> 0:01:58.956 consider yourself a pretty compliant person, maybe you even think 0:01:58.996 --> 0:02:02.596 of yourself as a people pleaser, it's something you can change. 0:02:03.276 --> 0:02:06.916 Defiance isn't a personality, it's a skill set. If we 0:02:06.996 --> 0:02:09.356 have a self concept of being complying, it doesn't mean 0:02:09.436 --> 0:02:12.236 that we can't be defiant. We just have to learn it. 0:02:12.556 --> 0:02:15.476 So even if compliance is our default, it doesn't have 0:02:15.516 --> 0:02:17.596 to be a destiny. 0:02:21.956 --> 0:02:28.436 On today's show, How to Say No, I'm maya Schunker, 0:02:28.596 --> 0:02:31.836 a scientist who studies human behavior, and this is a 0:02:31.876 --> 0:02:34.596 slight change of plans, a show about who we are 0:02:34.756 --> 0:02:42.996 and who we become in the face of a big change. 0:02:47.516 --> 0:02:50.116 Have you ever found yourself saying yes to something you 0:02:50.236 --> 0:02:53.396 really didn't want to do. Maybe it was taking on 0:02:53.556 --> 0:02:56.716 extra work when your plate was already full, or agreeing 0:02:56.756 --> 0:03:00.276 to plans you had no energy for, or feeling pressure 0:03:00.396 --> 0:03:02.916 to say yes to someone in a position of power. 0:03:03.556 --> 0:03:08.116 Defiance is super hard, especially when our relationships and our 0:03:08.156 --> 0:03:11.796 reputations are on line, and that's why I'm so glad 0:03:11.836 --> 0:03:15.036 Sunita could join us today to talk about how exactly 0:03:15.076 --> 0:03:17.916 we can build this skill. Her new book is called 0:03:17.956 --> 0:03:21.716 DeFi The Power of No in a World that demands Yes. 0:03:22.356 --> 0:03:27.156 I think I've been interested in defying somewhat that single 0:03:27.196 --> 0:03:30.116 powerful word defy means for a really, really long time. 0:03:30.636 --> 0:03:32.596 So as a child, I was known for being an 0:03:32.636 --> 0:03:36.916 obedient daughter and a student. And I grew up in Yorkshire, 0:03:36.956 --> 0:03:39.796 in the north of England. My parents are from India. 0:03:40.676 --> 0:03:43.196 My mom used to at that time where her sorry 0:03:43.236 --> 0:03:46.076 every single day, and it was quite obvious we were 0:03:46.116 --> 0:03:49.316 different from the people around us. People used to stare 0:03:49.356 --> 0:03:52.436 when we went into department stores. I felt jostling on 0:03:52.476 --> 0:03:56.196 the streets. I heard the racist remarks of aimed, ohweh 0:03:56.236 --> 0:03:59.996 several times. I remember when I was going through that 0:04:00.076 --> 0:04:01.756 I need to fit in, I need to blend in 0:04:01.876 --> 0:04:05.716 stage that my dad got me these very bright red 0:04:05.836 --> 0:04:08.916 leg warmers. Red was my favorite color, and I did 0:04:08.916 --> 0:04:10.716 not want to wear them at all because I thought 0:04:10.716 --> 0:04:12.676 I would stand out too much at school and it 0:04:12.716 --> 0:04:14.836 would bring some attention to me, which is not what 0:04:14.996 --> 0:04:19.036 I wanted. So I spent the entire day trying to 0:04:19.156 --> 0:04:23.116 hide these red leg warmers with my coat, which obviously 0:04:23.156 --> 0:04:27.196 didn't work very well. But I was always fascinated by 0:04:27.596 --> 0:04:31.636 people who could just be themselves and not worry about 0:04:31.636 --> 0:04:36.236 what other people thought. And when I started at high school, 0:04:37.036 --> 0:04:40.156 I met someone who became my best friend, and we 0:04:40.196 --> 0:04:43.036 can call her Clara. She was different as well. She'd 0:04:43.036 --> 0:04:45.556 come from the south of England, she had a different accent, 0:04:46.076 --> 0:04:49.716 she wore stilettos, I wore sneakers. We were quite different, 0:04:51.156 --> 0:04:55.236 and yet I was just attracted to her defiance and 0:04:55.276 --> 0:04:58.196 her knowing who she was and the way that she acted, 0:04:58.396 --> 0:05:01.756 and we had some really fun times. So there was 0:05:01.796 --> 0:05:04.556 that element of being fascinated by people who could just 0:05:04.676 --> 0:05:05.556 be themselves. 0:05:05.956 --> 0:05:10.156 Yeah, but it seems like your desire to obey, to 0:05:10.276 --> 0:05:15.156 comply it persisted into adulthood. So do you mind telling 0:05:15.196 --> 0:05:18.636 me the story of your visit to the emergency room? 0:05:18.916 --> 0:05:22.036 Yes? Absolutely so. When I moved from the UK to 0:05:22.116 --> 0:05:24.756 the US, there was one day I was experiencing some 0:05:24.836 --> 0:05:30.076 really severe central chest pain, and as a former physician, 0:05:30.436 --> 0:05:33.036 I was obviously very worried and concerned. So I went 0:05:33.076 --> 0:05:37.036 to the emergency room and they immediately put me through 0:05:37.116 --> 0:05:40.956 triach and everything was fine, luckily, and the pain was 0:05:40.996 --> 0:05:45.996 even subsiding, so I was really relieved, and I thought 0:05:46.036 --> 0:05:48.436 I was going to be discharged and I could go home. 0:05:49.196 --> 0:05:51.396 But then the doctor said, before we let you go, 0:05:52.236 --> 0:05:55.436 and you need to have a CT scan, and so 0:05:55.556 --> 0:05:58.236 I asked why, and she said, oh, we want to 0:05:58.276 --> 0:06:00.756 make sure you don't have a blood clot in the lungs. 0:06:01.036 --> 0:06:03.596 And with my medical training, I knew I did not 0:06:03.716 --> 0:06:06.556 have the type of pain that she was looking for 0:06:06.796 --> 0:06:10.556 and that I wouldn't have a blood clot in the lungs. 0:06:10.996 --> 0:06:13.516 And so I should have said no to having a 0:06:13.516 --> 0:06:18.236 CT scan because it's about seventy times more on average 0:06:18.316 --> 0:06:22.116 the amount of radiation than an X ray. It's still small, 0:06:22.276 --> 0:06:25.156 but ionizing radiation can put you at risk of cancer 0:06:25.196 --> 0:06:28.196 many years later, so why take the risk. I wanted 0:06:28.196 --> 0:06:30.716 to say no. I should have said no, and yet 0:06:30.796 --> 0:06:33.676 I found it very difficult to tell the doctor I 0:06:33.716 --> 0:06:35.956 did not want to have the CT scan that she 0:06:36.076 --> 0:06:39.796 had recommended, and so I ended up going along with it. 0:06:39.956 --> 0:06:42.716 And I regretted it so much because that was a 0:06:42.756 --> 0:06:46.196 situation that was very safe for me to say no, 0:06:46.476 --> 0:06:49.156 I would rather not have that, and I struggled with it. 0:06:50.236 --> 0:06:55.116 I resonate so much with this story, because I get very, 0:06:55.196 --> 0:06:59.796 very anxious about pushing back. And it's so interesting you 0:06:59.836 --> 0:07:01.436 share this because, like you said, it was such a 0:07:01.516 --> 0:07:03.876 safe space for you, you know. And so when I 0:07:04.076 --> 0:07:08.156 zoom out, I think, well, if Sunita, this physician has 0:07:08.236 --> 0:07:12.556 trouble saying no to a medical professional on empirical grounds, 0:07:12.596 --> 0:07:14.556 I mean, like, what hope is there for the rest 0:07:14.556 --> 0:07:17.236 of us? Right? I mean, this is clearly a problem. 0:07:17.876 --> 0:07:20.036 So with that said, let's take a step back for 0:07:20.076 --> 0:07:25.436 a moment. How is it that you define defiance? What 0:07:25.596 --> 0:07:25.876 is it? 0:07:26.476 --> 0:07:30.356 When you look at the Oxford English Dictionary definition of defiance, 0:07:30.996 --> 0:07:34.396 they say to defy is to challenge the power of 0:07:34.436 --> 0:07:39.076 another person boldly and openly. And I'm not one to disagree, 0:07:39.276 --> 0:07:41.916 as you know, especially with the Oxford English Dictionary. 0:07:42.236 --> 0:07:45.316 I know, how dare you defy the definition? 0:07:45.556 --> 0:07:48.196 How dare I define so meta? But that definition I 0:07:48.196 --> 0:07:51.516 think is too narrow in it doesn't honor our agency. 0:07:52.196 --> 0:07:55.596 And so my definition of defiance is that to defy 0:07:56.076 --> 0:08:00.316 is to act in accordance with your true values when 0:08:00.356 --> 0:08:04.916 there is pressure to do otherwise. And that reframes defiance 0:08:04.956 --> 0:08:09.116 from this negative connotation to actually a proactive, positive force 0:08:09.236 --> 0:08:13.676 in society, because if we think about when we comply, 0:08:13.916 --> 0:08:17.916 when we defy, all those individual acts, they create the 0:08:17.996 --> 0:08:21.796 society that we live in. So it affects what treatment 0:08:21.836 --> 0:08:24.996 we get, It affects our workplaces, whether we speak up 0:08:25.436 --> 0:08:29.076 and say something when somebody does something inappropriate. It affects 0:08:29.076 --> 0:08:32.196 our communities, affects our lives. And that's why I'm so 0:08:32.396 --> 0:08:34.276 passionate about defiance. 0:08:35.396 --> 0:08:39.876 So on the surface, this is a very compelling definition, 0:08:39.956 --> 0:08:42.996 but I want to get more clarity on what is 0:08:43.116 --> 0:08:47.156 meant by true values in practice, because most of us 0:08:47.236 --> 0:08:49.796 don't walk around with a firm grasp or at least 0:08:49.796 --> 0:08:52.996 a conscious grasp of what our quote true values are. 0:08:53.276 --> 0:08:56.396 So how is it that we go about establishing them 0:08:56.876 --> 0:08:58.156 in this context? 0:08:58.476 --> 0:09:01.316 So the first question that we have to ask when 0:09:01.796 --> 0:09:04.476 we want to defy is who am I? What do 0:09:04.596 --> 0:09:07.636 I stand for? And we do that work well before 0:09:07.756 --> 0:09:10.476 so of a moment of defiance. And when I ask 0:09:10.596 --> 0:09:14.396 my executive students to think about what their values are, 0:09:14.516 --> 0:09:19.636 I ask them to write them down and explain where 0:09:19.676 --> 0:09:22.596 those values came from and why they are so important. 0:09:23.156 --> 0:09:25.876 And these students, they come up with the similar values 0:09:25.956 --> 0:09:29.476 year after year. They end up being quite universal values. 0:09:29.516 --> 0:09:36.116 That often come down to sort of one word like integrity, compassion, equality. 0:09:36.596 --> 0:09:39.356 These are the types of values I see again and again, 0:09:39.996 --> 0:09:43.116 and the reason I ask the students to write them 0:09:43.156 --> 0:09:46.156 down and explain why they are so important is because 0:09:46.196 --> 0:09:51.276 the research shows that our behavior, our intended behaviors, are 0:09:51.316 --> 0:09:54.476 more likely to follow when we know exactly what our 0:09:54.556 --> 0:09:58.876 values are, because one of the biggest gaps is between 0:09:59.476 --> 0:10:02.036 who we think we are and what we actually do. 0:10:02.116 --> 0:10:06.436 So putting those values into action, so clarifying our values 0:10:06.516 --> 0:10:10.236 is just really important. And actually there's some work that 0:10:10.356 --> 0:10:13.436 shows that we also have a lower biological stress reaction 0:10:13.636 --> 0:10:16.596 if we know our values and we're acting in alignment 0:10:16.636 --> 0:10:20.396 with them. So everybody wants lower cort assault, right, So 0:10:20.436 --> 0:10:23.556 that's a good thing to know what your values are. So, 0:10:23.756 --> 0:10:27.356 for example, with the CT scan, what are my values 0:10:27.396 --> 0:10:31.836 in that particular situation? Is my value just listening to 0:10:31.876 --> 0:10:34.396 the doctor and obeying the doctor? I don't think so. 0:10:35.236 --> 0:10:39.836 If your value, your ethical moral stance, comes from just 0:10:39.996 --> 0:10:43.236 listening to the person in authority, perhaps your boss, and 0:10:43.756 --> 0:10:47.676 assessing your actions from how well you obey your boss, 0:10:48.276 --> 0:10:52.396 it can lead you really blind to the greater consequences 0:10:52.396 --> 0:10:55.676 of your action. So we need to think in every situation, 0:10:55.956 --> 0:10:58.676 what is it that I stand for? And if we 0:10:58.756 --> 0:11:02.676 do feel that something is going against our values, think 0:11:02.716 --> 0:11:06.196 about this is the time now for me to speak up. 0:11:06.276 --> 0:11:08.356 This is the time now for me to say something. 0:11:09.476 --> 0:11:12.316 Let's take that healthcare scenario again though with the doctor, 0:11:12.436 --> 0:11:17.476 which is it wasn't just about the value of listening 0:11:17.556 --> 0:11:19.316 to the doctor. I feel like there was something much 0:11:19.316 --> 0:11:23.476 deeper going on, which is, you're someone that values kindness 0:11:23.596 --> 0:11:26.876 and how you make other people feel about themselves, right, 0:11:26.956 --> 0:11:28.876 Like I know you to be a deeply kind person. 0:11:29.356 --> 0:11:31.436 Surely that was weighing in as well, which is you 0:11:31.476 --> 0:11:34.476 didn't want to undermine this person's authority, make them maybe 0:11:34.556 --> 0:11:40.556 question themselves, right, And so do I value my health 0:11:40.596 --> 0:11:45.836 in this moment over the psychological comfort of the physician 0:11:45.996 --> 0:11:47.876 who's ordering this exam for me? 0:11:48.316 --> 0:11:51.716 I agree with you, And so that what I call 0:11:51.876 --> 0:11:58.236 insinuation anxiety, That anxiety of not wanting to send a 0:11:58.276 --> 0:12:01.916 signal of distrust to another person can be really powerful 0:12:02.396 --> 0:12:05.436 and it keeps us silent. It really is an aversive 0:12:05.476 --> 0:12:08.716 emotional state. When we become so concerned with offending the 0:12:08.756 --> 0:12:13.316 other person and we become mute. We have these relationship concerns, 0:12:13.316 --> 0:12:15.236 and what my research shows is that we can have 0:12:15.316 --> 0:12:19.316 them even in one off situations with strangers with no 0:12:19.436 --> 0:12:22.076 power dynamics. So you can imagine how hard it is 0:12:22.476 --> 0:12:26.036 when you're in that medical scenario with somebody who is 0:12:26.076 --> 0:12:29.156 supposed to have your best interests at heart, and we 0:12:29.156 --> 0:12:31.716 don't want to insinuate that our physicians or even our 0:12:31.756 --> 0:12:35.276 co workers or friends or family are not trustworthy. That's 0:12:35.356 --> 0:12:39.356 just too hard to do. So there's one very nice 0:12:39.396 --> 0:12:42.996 example of a woman. She's an academic, she's a young woman, 0:12:43.116 --> 0:12:47.436 and she's on this committee with four senior men looking 0:12:47.436 --> 0:12:51.676 at grant applications, and when one applicant is being discussed, 0:12:51.836 --> 0:12:55.636 she felt like they were going with gossip rather than 0:12:55.716 --> 0:12:59.876 the credentials of the applicant, and she wanted to say 0:12:59.916 --> 0:13:02.636 something because she didn't think this was right or fair, 0:13:03.116 --> 0:13:06.036 and so that went against her values, and it could 0:13:06.036 --> 0:13:07.956 cause harm as well. It could cause harm to the 0:13:07.956 --> 0:13:11.796 applicant's family, like we don't know what extended harm it 0:13:11.796 --> 0:13:15.556 could cause, and she wanted to say something. And then 0:13:15.596 --> 0:13:17.596 she came out of the meeting and she said the 0:13:17.676 --> 0:13:21.276 one thing that she wanted to say was the one 0:13:21.356 --> 0:13:25.556 thing she could not say, and she having met those 0:13:25.596 --> 0:13:28.116 people for the first time, she just did not want 0:13:28.156 --> 0:13:30.876 to insinuate that they didn't know what they was doing 0:13:31.036 --> 0:13:34.876 or that they lacked integrity, and so it was just 0:13:34.916 --> 0:13:37.276 so difficult for her to do so. And I think 0:13:37.316 --> 0:13:41.916 these are the situations that we face so often, that 0:13:41.996 --> 0:13:44.916 we know exactly what we want to do, but something 0:13:44.956 --> 0:13:46.236 prevents us from doing it. 0:13:46.916 --> 0:13:49.956 There's such an irony to insinuation anxiety. Right, I don't 0:13:49.956 --> 0:13:52.756 want to insinuate that they're not acting with integrity, and 0:13:52.836 --> 0:13:55.916 so I will not act with integrity and not raise 0:13:55.996 --> 0:13:59.196 this very important issue, right. And I say that with 0:13:59.236 --> 0:14:02.676 such humility because I to do this all the time, 0:14:02.796 --> 0:14:06.476 right to save other people's feelings. I won't make the 0:14:06.556 --> 0:14:08.916 right ethical choice in some situations because I'm so in 0:14:09.196 --> 0:14:12.116 tent for them not to feel like I'm challenging their 0:14:12.196 --> 0:14:12.996 moral character. 0:14:13.516 --> 0:14:15.916 Yes, and that's the thing that stays with us, that 0:14:15.956 --> 0:14:18.596 feeling of you know, we have that tension that we 0:14:18.636 --> 0:14:21.436 want to say something, and if we don't and we 0:14:21.556 --> 0:14:24.476 let it go, then it really erodes our sense of 0:14:24.516 --> 0:14:26.996 self and who we are and are we rarely a 0:14:27.036 --> 0:14:31.436 person with integrity, you know, So it is very important 0:14:31.476 --> 0:14:34.956 to learn how to say something in that situation in 0:14:34.996 --> 0:14:37.796 a way that's comfortable for us and with far less 0:14:37.876 --> 0:14:39.156 ants than we used to have. 0:14:40.076 --> 0:14:44.716 There's a well known study in psychology that argues that 0:14:45.196 --> 0:14:48.476 complicity is the norm right and defiance is the exception. 0:14:49.116 --> 0:14:51.716 Do you mind telling our listeners about that study? 0:14:51.956 --> 0:14:52.276 Sure? 0:14:52.516 --> 0:14:52.676 So. 0:14:52.996 --> 0:14:57.076 Stanley Milgram he conducted his now infamous studies in the 0:14:57.196 --> 0:15:01.716 early nineteen sixties at Yell, and he was really fascinated 0:15:01.796 --> 0:15:05.076 by sort of the claim from Nazis after World War 0:15:05.116 --> 0:15:09.076 Two that they were just following orders when they committed 0:15:09.236 --> 0:15:11.956 war crimes, and he really wanted to look at whether 0:15:11.996 --> 0:15:16.756 this was a psychological reality or not for human beings. 0:15:17.236 --> 0:15:20.476 So Milgram brought in subjects and you asked them to 0:15:20.556 --> 0:15:23.716 read out these word pairs to somebody else in another room, 0:15:24.316 --> 0:15:26.956 and if the person in the other room couldn't repeat them, 0:15:27.156 --> 0:15:31.236 the participant had to administer an electric shock and increase 0:15:31.316 --> 0:15:34.276 the shock level by fifteen volts every single time they 0:15:34.276 --> 0:15:38.396 got something wrong. If they protested, the experimenter would give 0:15:38.436 --> 0:15:41.316 them some prompts to tell them to continue that please 0:15:41.396 --> 0:15:44.796 go on. The experiment requires you to continue. It's absolutely 0:15:44.916 --> 0:15:48.436 essential that you continue, and you have no choice. You 0:15:48.516 --> 0:15:52.156 must go on. Now, shocks weren't actually being administered to 0:15:52.156 --> 0:15:53.836 the other person. The other person in the room was 0:15:53.876 --> 0:15:56.956 an actor, but the participant didn't know that. And they 0:15:56.996 --> 0:15:59.716 were asked to start off with fifteen volts, which is 0:15:59.956 --> 0:16:03.756 basically harmless. But the board went all the way up 0:16:03.836 --> 0:16:06.156 to four hundred and fifty volts, where it was labeled 0:16:06.196 --> 0:16:11.076 with three x's and danger severe shock. And what he 0:16:11.276 --> 0:16:16.596 found was that even though most psychiatrists predicted that hardly 0:16:16.636 --> 0:16:19.116 anyone would go up to the top voltage of four 0:16:19.156 --> 0:16:23.156 hundred and fifty volts, sixty five percent of participants did. 0:16:23.596 --> 0:16:26.036 They went up to the most severe shock. 0:16:26.996 --> 0:16:29.676 You know. I should note that one criticism of the 0:16:29.716 --> 0:16:33.276 study is that the the sample size is very small. 0:16:33.636 --> 0:16:36.476 But let's assume that this is a legitimate result. I'm 0:16:36.556 --> 0:16:40.396 curious to hear, Sunita, how Milgrim interpreted the results of 0:16:40.436 --> 0:16:44.836 this experiment, and how you, through your lens studying defiance, 0:16:45.436 --> 0:16:46.556 interpret these results. 0:16:46.836 --> 0:16:50.196 So Milgram was actually shocked by these exactly. 0:16:50.196 --> 0:16:52.276 No pun please, I want you to use that word. 0:16:52.316 --> 0:16:54.196 I'm sorry, We're gonna have to continue in the conversation. 0:16:55.876 --> 0:17:00.876 Milgram was actually shocked by these results because he did 0:17:00.916 --> 0:17:03.996 not think that people would go up to the four 0:17:04.076 --> 0:17:06.916 hundred and fifty volt level. So he was actually really shocked, 0:17:07.036 --> 0:17:12.036 and he wanted to repeat different variations of the experiments 0:17:12.116 --> 0:17:17.716 to really find out what led people to be so obedient. 0:17:19.036 --> 0:17:22.356 The way that I interpreted it is that the subjects 0:17:22.356 --> 0:17:25.756 that were obedient to authority, they were showing some signs 0:17:25.876 --> 0:17:32.876 of being uncomfortable, so nervous, laughter, swearing, stuttering, sweating, asking 0:17:32.916 --> 0:17:38.436 the experimenter whether this was okay, And those signs of 0:17:38.636 --> 0:17:41.596 tension to me, really stood out from the subjects because 0:17:41.636 --> 0:17:46.516 it showed me that they weren't completely obeying the experimenter. 0:17:47.116 --> 0:17:51.636 Like what Mulgram had described was this aspect of being 0:17:51.796 --> 0:17:55.316 in an agentic state, in that the participants were following 0:17:55.516 --> 0:17:58.716 orders because the experiment had told them so. But if 0:17:58.716 --> 0:18:02.356 they had given all their agency to the experimenter, they 0:18:02.356 --> 0:18:03.836 wouldn't have felt such tension. 0:18:04.636 --> 0:18:08.836 Yeah, and hearing, I mean the expressions that you just described, 0:18:09.676 --> 0:18:13.436 I'm hearing distress right, Like, those are signs of distress, 0:18:13.796 --> 0:18:16.396 and that's meaningful, and that speaks to the fact that, 0:18:16.996 --> 0:18:19.876 of course there was some inner humanity that maybe didn't 0:18:19.916 --> 0:18:22.636 express itself in the ultimate behavior, which is to say no, 0:18:22.756 --> 0:18:25.636 I'm not going to increase the vultures level more. But 0:18:25.716 --> 0:18:28.556 it's not nothing, right, It's still meaningful to me. 0:18:28.836 --> 0:18:31.876 I really recognize those signs of tension. I just thought 0:18:31.876 --> 0:18:35.676 those subjects are like me. They want to defy, they 0:18:35.836 --> 0:18:39.356 just don't know how to defy. And that is what 0:18:39.436 --> 0:18:43.756 really captured me about Milgram's experiments, was that how can 0:18:43.836 --> 0:18:45.236 we learn how to defy? 0:18:45.876 --> 0:18:48.636 Yeah? Yeah, So we talked about one of the major 0:18:48.876 --> 0:18:53.556 drivers of obedience, which is insinuation anxiety. Right, we don't 0:18:53.716 --> 0:18:55.876 want to signal that we have a negative opinion of 0:18:55.916 --> 0:18:59.116 another person, or that we have apprehension or worry or 0:18:59.156 --> 0:19:03.716 we don't trust them. What are other drivers of obedience? Like, 0:19:03.756 --> 0:19:05.476 what are other reasons why we have a really hard 0:19:05.516 --> 0:19:08.476 time saying no or standing up for what we believe in. 0:19:09.156 --> 0:19:11.556 So one is this enormous pressure to go along with 0:19:11.596 --> 0:19:15.836 other people. One factor can be insinuation anxiety, or as 0:19:15.916 --> 0:19:18.796 fearing the consequences that we're going to lose a relationship 0:19:18.876 --> 0:19:21.756 or a job. So there's what are the consequences of 0:19:22.156 --> 0:19:27.636 defying in this situation? And then once we decide to defy, 0:19:28.156 --> 0:19:30.956 we don't know exactly how to do it. We have 0:19:31.036 --> 0:19:34.276 been so trained in compliance from a young age, and 0:19:34.316 --> 0:19:37.996 we've become so socialized to comply and to obey that 0:19:38.076 --> 0:19:40.276 we don't have the skill set for defiance. We don't 0:19:40.316 --> 0:19:42.636 know how to do it. We never get trained in 0:19:42.716 --> 0:19:45.436 how to be defiant and speak up when it matters, 0:19:45.956 --> 0:19:48.676 and so is that training that's missing from our lives. 0:19:51.076 --> 0:19:54.196 After the break, Sunita gives us a lesson in defiance 0:19:54.236 --> 0:19:56.636 one oh one. We'll be back in a moment with 0:19:56.716 --> 0:20:10.356 a slight change of plans, talking about how hard it 0:20:10.396 --> 0:20:13.276 can be to stand up for ourselves, to set boundaries 0:20:13.316 --> 0:20:16.996 and just say no. My guest, Uneatha knows the struggle 0:20:16.996 --> 0:20:20.396 of defiance all too well. It's something she's been plagued 0:20:20.396 --> 0:20:23.356 with her whole life, but she's found a way through it. 0:20:24.156 --> 0:20:27.236 She's developed a simple framework to help us navigate those 0:20:27.276 --> 0:20:30.756 tough moments, the ones where we hesitate, where we wish 0:20:30.836 --> 0:20:33.476 we had just the right words, where we want to 0:20:33.516 --> 0:20:39.076 push back but aren't sure how. Her framework has five stages, So. 0:20:39.076 --> 0:20:41.516 The stages of defiance are things that we can start 0:20:41.556 --> 0:20:43.796 to recognize, and we don't always go through them in 0:20:43.796 --> 0:20:46.356 a linear fashion. We might skip a stage or go 0:20:46.436 --> 0:20:49.276 back and forth, but they're really useful to know as 0:20:49.316 --> 0:20:53.556 a framework for how we can defy. So the first 0:20:53.556 --> 0:20:56.476 stage is this tension. This is what we often feel 0:20:56.476 --> 0:20:59.756 when we're in a situation where we're being pulled between 0:20:59.796 --> 0:21:04.316 two forces. One where we're expected to do something by 0:21:04.476 --> 0:21:09.276 either another person, authority, a peer, or just expectations all societie. 0:21:09.876 --> 0:21:13.196 You know, there's this expectation of us and then what 0:21:13.236 --> 0:21:16.196 we believe is the right thing to do. Whenever we're 0:21:16.236 --> 0:21:19.956 in that situation, we feel some tension. I often describe 0:21:19.996 --> 0:21:23.116 it as our resistance to resistance. It's really telling us 0:21:23.516 --> 0:21:26.396 that we want to defy, but we actually resist it. 0:21:26.756 --> 0:21:30.036 And can you describe what that tension feels like for listeners? 0:21:30.036 --> 0:21:32.236 Like what am I feeling in my body when that happens? 0:21:32.636 --> 0:21:34.796 So it's different for each one of us, and we 0:21:34.836 --> 0:21:37.916 can get to know what is the telltale sign for us. 0:21:38.316 --> 0:21:41.156 So for some people they feel unease in the stomach. 0:21:41.276 --> 0:21:44.356 I definitely feel that. For others they get a headache, 0:21:44.436 --> 0:21:47.236 or they feel their voice being constricted or their throat 0:21:47.276 --> 0:21:50.476 becoming tight. Other people feel their heart rate going up, 0:21:51.396 --> 0:21:56.236 dry mouth, So it manifests in different ways, and it's 0:21:56.316 --> 0:21:59.116 really useful to know what it feels like for you. 0:21:59.196 --> 0:22:01.276 If you can figure out this is Oh, I've felt 0:22:01.276 --> 0:22:02.236 this feeling before. 0:22:02.876 --> 0:22:06.876 See that you've literally just described every physiological response I 0:22:06.916 --> 0:22:08.916 have watching the news in twenty twenty five. 0:22:09.396 --> 0:22:10.116 So thank you. 0:22:10.116 --> 0:22:13.156 Actually try all of them. Is that one of the options. 0:22:12.676 --> 0:22:14.956 That you can have all of them? Yes, you can 0:22:15.036 --> 0:22:15.796 have all of these. 0:22:17.596 --> 0:22:18.516 Nausea is that one? 0:22:18.556 --> 0:22:22.956 I am? Okay, that's one of them. So just really knowing, like, oh, 0:22:22.996 --> 0:22:26.876 I recognize this feeling. I've had this feeling before, and 0:22:27.436 --> 0:22:31.356 that's actually Stage two is acknowledging that this is going on, 0:22:31.396 --> 0:22:34.676 because so often we disregard it. We think it's not 0:22:34.716 --> 0:22:37.356 worth our doubt. We think that the other person must 0:22:37.356 --> 0:22:40.196 know better, like when I'm having my CT scan, Oh, 0:22:40.236 --> 0:22:42.156 they must know something that I don't know, you know, 0:22:42.396 --> 0:22:45.516 So we often disregard it go along with the confidence 0:22:45.556 --> 0:22:48.076 of the other person. And that's a shame because that 0:22:48.236 --> 0:22:50.996 tension is actually a warning sign to us that we 0:22:51.116 --> 0:22:54.356 might need to defy. So paying attention to it and 0:22:54.436 --> 0:22:58.796 acknowledging it is stage two. So just like recognizing I've 0:22:58.796 --> 0:23:02.356 had this before, this is something where I'm expected to 0:23:02.356 --> 0:23:04.516 do something that I don't think is the right thing 0:23:04.556 --> 0:23:08.716 to do. Then stage three is the really critical stage 0:23:09.316 --> 0:23:15.996 because it's just telling somebody else. It's externalizing, vocalizing to 0:23:16.076 --> 0:23:20.036 someone else other than yourself that you're not comfortable with this, 0:23:20.876 --> 0:23:23.516 And that stage is so critical because if you can 0:23:23.596 --> 0:23:26.116 do that, it means you're more likely to get to 0:23:26.156 --> 0:23:29.476 stage five because you can't go back in time and say, oh, 0:23:29.516 --> 0:23:32.996 you were fine with this because you're too much cognitive dissonance. 0:23:33.076 --> 0:23:36.516 Now you've told somebody else that you're not fine with this, 0:23:37.036 --> 0:23:40.796 And in this situation, all you're doing is clarifying how 0:23:40.836 --> 0:23:44.476 you feel, so either I'm uncomfortable with this, or asking 0:23:44.516 --> 0:23:47.116 what do you mean by that? Sort of testing the waters. 0:23:47.676 --> 0:23:50.396 You're still in that position where you're not saying anything 0:23:50.916 --> 0:23:55.316 that's confrontational. You could just be acting with curiosity. So 0:23:55.476 --> 0:23:58.916 if somebody has said something inappropriate, can you clarify what 0:23:58.956 --> 0:24:01.836