1 00:00:14,956 --> 00:00:15,396 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:20,236 --> 00:00:24,196 Speaker 2: Hey, slight changers, Maya here. My new newsletter, which I'm 3 00:00:24,236 --> 00:00:27,356 Speaker 2: so excited about, is out now. It's called Change with 4 00:00:27,436 --> 00:00:30,636 Speaker 2: Maya Shunker. It's totally free and you can sign up 5 00:00:30,716 --> 00:00:33,716 Speaker 2: at Changewmaya dot com or check out the link in 6 00:00:33,756 --> 00:00:36,916 Speaker 2: our show notes. The reason I started this newsletter is 7 00:00:36,956 --> 00:00:39,916 Speaker 2: that I'm so excited about building a community with all 8 00:00:39,956 --> 00:00:42,916 Speaker 2: of you around how we can navigate change with more 9 00:00:42,956 --> 00:00:47,276 Speaker 2: wisdom and with more hope. I'll be sharing personal updates, 10 00:00:47,356 --> 00:00:50,516 Speaker 2: links to what I'm reading or watching lately, exciting new 11 00:00:50,596 --> 00:00:54,476 Speaker 2: science about change, and my top takeaways for my conversations 12 00:00:54,476 --> 00:00:57,836 Speaker 2: on this show, with some behind the scenes action. I 13 00:00:57,876 --> 00:00:59,916 Speaker 2: hope you'll sign up and spread the word with your 14 00:00:59,956 --> 00:01:04,436 Speaker 2: friends again. You can sign up at Changewithmaya dot com. Okay, 15 00:01:04,596 --> 00:01:10,436 Speaker 2: now onto the episode. 16 00:01:16,236 --> 00:01:19,316 Speaker 1: I remember asking my dad at one point, what does 17 00:01:19,356 --> 00:01:24,036 Speaker 1: my name Sanita mean? And he said in Sanskript, Sanita 18 00:01:24,156 --> 00:01:28,596 Speaker 1: means good. And that's the kind of messages I received. 19 00:01:28,676 --> 00:01:31,396 Speaker 1: You know, to be good, to fit in, be polite, 20 00:01:31,956 --> 00:01:34,956 Speaker 1: don't make a scene, don't question authority. And I think 21 00:01:35,796 --> 00:01:38,796 Speaker 1: many of us have had that kind of upbringing or 22 00:01:39,156 --> 00:01:42,276 Speaker 1: messages that they're expected to comply. 23 00:01:43,476 --> 00:01:47,356 Speaker 2: Sunita Saw is a doctor turned organizational psychologist and a 24 00:01:47,396 --> 00:01:51,196 Speaker 2: professor at Cornell University. She studies why it can be 25 00:01:51,356 --> 00:01:54,996 Speaker 2: so hard to say no. Sunita says that if you 26 00:01:55,036 --> 00:01:58,956 Speaker 2: consider yourself a pretty compliant person, maybe you even think 27 00:01:58,996 --> 00:02:02,596 Speaker 2: of yourself as a people pleaser, it's something you can change. 28 00:02:03,276 --> 00:02:06,916 Speaker 1: Defiance isn't a personality, it's a skill set. If we 29 00:02:06,996 --> 00:02:09,356 Speaker 1: have a self concept of being complying, it doesn't mean 30 00:02:09,436 --> 00:02:12,236 Speaker 1: that we can't be defiant. We just have to learn it. 31 00:02:12,556 --> 00:02:15,476 Speaker 1: So even if compliance is our default, it doesn't have 32 00:02:15,516 --> 00:02:17,596 Speaker 1: to be a destiny. 33 00:02:21,956 --> 00:02:28,436 Speaker 2: On today's show, How to Say No, I'm maya Schunker, 34 00:02:28,596 --> 00:02:31,836 Speaker 2: a scientist who studies human behavior, and this is a 35 00:02:31,876 --> 00:02:34,596 Speaker 2: slight change of plans, a show about who we are 36 00:02:34,756 --> 00:02:42,996 Speaker 2: and who we become in the face of a big change. 37 00:02:47,516 --> 00:02:50,116 Speaker 2: Have you ever found yourself saying yes to something you 38 00:02:50,236 --> 00:02:53,396 Speaker 2: really didn't want to do. Maybe it was taking on 39 00:02:53,556 --> 00:02:56,716 Speaker 2: extra work when your plate was already full, or agreeing 40 00:02:56,756 --> 00:03:00,276 Speaker 2: to plans you had no energy for, or feeling pressure 41 00:03:00,396 --> 00:03:02,916 Speaker 2: to say yes to someone in a position of power. 42 00:03:03,556 --> 00:03:08,116 Speaker 2: Defiance is super hard, especially when our relationships and our 43 00:03:08,156 --> 00:03:11,796 Speaker 2: reputations are on line, and that's why I'm so glad 44 00:03:11,836 --> 00:03:15,036 Speaker 2: Sunita could join us today to talk about how exactly 45 00:03:15,076 --> 00:03:17,916 Speaker 2: we can build this skill. Her new book is called 46 00:03:17,956 --> 00:03:21,716 Speaker 2: DeFi The Power of No in a World that demands Yes. 47 00:03:22,356 --> 00:03:27,156 Speaker 1: I think I've been interested in defying somewhat that single 48 00:03:27,196 --> 00:03:30,116 Speaker 1: powerful word defy means for a really, really long time. 49 00:03:30,636 --> 00:03:32,596 Speaker 1: So as a child, I was known for being an 50 00:03:32,636 --> 00:03:36,916 Speaker 1: obedient daughter and a student. And I grew up in Yorkshire, 51 00:03:36,956 --> 00:03:39,796 Speaker 1: in the north of England. My parents are from India. 52 00:03:40,676 --> 00:03:43,196 Speaker 1: My mom used to at that time where her sorry 53 00:03:43,236 --> 00:03:46,076 Speaker 1: every single day, and it was quite obvious we were 54 00:03:46,116 --> 00:03:49,316 Speaker 1: different from the people around us. People used to stare 55 00:03:49,356 --> 00:03:52,436 Speaker 1: when we went into department stores. I felt jostling on 56 00:03:52,476 --> 00:03:56,196 Speaker 1: the streets. I heard the racist remarks of aimed, ohweh 57 00:03:56,236 --> 00:03:59,996 Speaker 1: several times. I remember when I was going through that 58 00:04:00,076 --> 00:04:01,756 Speaker 1: I need to fit in, I need to blend in 59 00:04:01,876 --> 00:04:05,716 Speaker 1: stage that my dad got me these very bright red 60 00:04:05,836 --> 00:04:08,916 Speaker 1: leg warmers. Red was my favorite color, and I did 61 00:04:08,916 --> 00:04:10,716 Speaker 1: not want to wear them at all because I thought 62 00:04:10,716 --> 00:04:12,676 Speaker 1: I would stand out too much at school and it 63 00:04:12,716 --> 00:04:14,836 Speaker 1: would bring some attention to me, which is not what 64 00:04:14,996 --> 00:04:19,036 Speaker 1: I wanted. So I spent the entire day trying to 65 00:04:19,156 --> 00:04:23,116 Speaker 1: hide these red leg warmers with my coat, which obviously 66 00:04:23,156 --> 00:04:27,196 Speaker 1: didn't work very well. But I was always fascinated by 67 00:04:27,596 --> 00:04:31,636 Speaker 1: people who could just be themselves and not worry about 68 00:04:31,636 --> 00:04:36,236 Speaker 1: what other people thought. And when I started at high school, 69 00:04:37,036 --> 00:04:40,156 Speaker 1: I met someone who became my best friend, and we 70 00:04:40,196 --> 00:04:43,036 Speaker 1: can call her Clara. She was different as well. She'd 71 00:04:43,036 --> 00:04:45,556 Speaker 1: come from the south of England, she had a different accent, 72 00:04:46,076 --> 00:04:49,716 Speaker 1: she wore stilettos, I wore sneakers. We were quite different, 73 00:04:51,156 --> 00:04:55,236 Speaker 1: and yet I was just attracted to her defiance and 74 00:04:55,276 --> 00:04:58,196 Speaker 1: her knowing who she was and the way that she acted, 75 00:04:58,396 --> 00:05:01,756 Speaker 1: and we had some really fun times. So there was 76 00:05:01,796 --> 00:05:04,556 Speaker 1: that element of being fascinated by people who could just 77 00:05:04,676 --> 00:05:05,556 Speaker 1: be themselves. 78 00:05:05,956 --> 00:05:10,156 Speaker 2: Yeah, but it seems like your desire to obey, to 79 00:05:10,276 --> 00:05:15,156 Speaker 2: comply it persisted into adulthood. So do you mind telling 80 00:05:15,196 --> 00:05:18,636 Speaker 2: me the story of your visit to the emergency room? 81 00:05:18,916 --> 00:05:22,036 Speaker 1: Yes? Absolutely so. When I moved from the UK to 82 00:05:22,116 --> 00:05:24,756 Speaker 1: the US, there was one day I was experiencing some 83 00:05:24,836 --> 00:05:30,076 Speaker 1: really severe central chest pain, and as a former physician, 84 00:05:30,436 --> 00:05:33,036 Speaker 1: I was obviously very worried and concerned. So I went 85 00:05:33,076 --> 00:05:37,036 Speaker 1: to the emergency room and they immediately put me through 86 00:05:37,116 --> 00:05:40,956 Speaker 1: triach and everything was fine, luckily, and the pain was 87 00:05:40,996 --> 00:05:45,996 Speaker 1: even subsiding, so I was really relieved, and I thought 88 00:05:46,036 --> 00:05:48,436 Speaker 1: I was going to be discharged and I could go home. 89 00:05:49,196 --> 00:05:51,396 Speaker 1: But then the doctor said, before we let you go, 90 00:05:52,236 --> 00:05:55,436 Speaker 1: and you need to have a CT scan, and so 91 00:05:55,556 --> 00:05:58,236 Speaker 1: I asked why, and she said, oh, we want to 92 00:05:58,276 --> 00:06:00,756 Speaker 1: make sure you don't have a blood clot in the lungs. 93 00:06:01,036 --> 00:06:03,596 Speaker 1: And with my medical training, I knew I did not 94 00:06:03,716 --> 00:06:06,556 Speaker 1: have the type of pain that she was looking for 95 00:06:06,796 --> 00:06:10,556 Speaker 1: and that I wouldn't have a blood clot in the lungs. 96 00:06:10,996 --> 00:06:13,516 Speaker 1: And so I should have said no to having a 97 00:06:13,516 --> 00:06:18,236 Speaker 1: CT scan because it's about seventy times more on average 98 00:06:18,316 --> 00:06:22,116 Speaker 1: the amount of radiation than an X ray. It's still small, 99 00:06:22,276 --> 00:06:25,156 Speaker 1: but ionizing radiation can put you at risk of cancer 100 00:06:25,196 --> 00:06:28,196 Speaker 1: many years later, so why take the risk. I wanted 101 00:06:28,196 --> 00:06:30,716 Speaker 1: to say no. I should have said no, and yet 102 00:06:30,796 --> 00:06:33,676 Speaker 1: I found it very difficult to tell the doctor I 103 00:06:33,716 --> 00:06:35,956 Speaker 1: did not want to have the CT scan that she 104 00:06:36,076 --> 00:06:39,796 Speaker 1: had recommended, and so I ended up going along with it. 105 00:06:39,956 --> 00:06:42,716 Speaker 1: And I regretted it so much because that was a 106 00:06:42,756 --> 00:06:46,196 Speaker 1: situation that was very safe for me to say no, 107 00:06:46,476 --> 00:06:49,156 Speaker 1: I would rather not have that, and I struggled with it. 108 00:06:50,236 --> 00:06:55,116 Speaker 2: I resonate so much with this story, because I get very, 109 00:06:55,196 --> 00:06:59,796 Speaker 2: very anxious about pushing back. And it's so interesting you 110 00:06:59,836 --> 00:07:01,436 Speaker 2: share this because, like you said, it was such a 111 00:07:01,516 --> 00:07:03,876 Speaker 2: safe space for you, you know. And so when I 112 00:07:04,076 --> 00:07:08,156 Speaker 2: zoom out, I think, well, if Sunita, this physician has 113 00:07:08,236 --> 00:07:12,556 Speaker 2: trouble saying no to a medical professional on empirical grounds, 114 00:07:12,596 --> 00:07:14,556 Speaker 2: I mean, like, what hope is there for the rest 115 00:07:14,556 --> 00:07:17,236 Speaker 2: of us? Right? I mean, this is clearly a problem. 116 00:07:17,876 --> 00:07:20,036 Speaker 2: So with that said, let's take a step back for 117 00:07:20,076 --> 00:07:25,436 Speaker 2: a moment. How is it that you define defiance? What 118 00:07:25,596 --> 00:07:25,876 Speaker 2: is it? 119 00:07:26,476 --> 00:07:30,356 Speaker 1: When you look at the Oxford English Dictionary definition of defiance, 120 00:07:30,996 --> 00:07:34,396 Speaker 1: they say to defy is to challenge the power of 121 00:07:34,436 --> 00:07:39,076 Speaker 1: another person boldly and openly. And I'm not one to disagree, 122 00:07:39,276 --> 00:07:41,916 Speaker 1: as you know, especially with the Oxford English Dictionary. 123 00:07:42,236 --> 00:07:45,316 Speaker 2: I know, how dare you defy the definition? 124 00:07:45,556 --> 00:07:48,196 Speaker 1: How dare I define so meta? But that definition I 125 00:07:48,196 --> 00:07:51,516 Speaker 1: think is too narrow in it doesn't honor our agency. 126 00:07:52,196 --> 00:07:55,596 Speaker 1: And so my definition of defiance is that to defy 127 00:07:56,076 --> 00:08:00,316 Speaker 1: is to act in accordance with your true values when 128 00:08:00,356 --> 00:08:04,916 Speaker 1: there is pressure to do otherwise. And that reframes defiance 129 00:08:04,956 --> 00:08:09,116 Speaker 1: from this negative connotation to actually a proactive, positive force 130 00:08:09,236 --> 00:08:13,676 Speaker 1: in society, because if we think about when we comply, 131 00:08:13,916 --> 00:08:17,916 Speaker 1: when we defy, all those individual acts, they create the 132 00:08:17,996 --> 00:08:21,796 Speaker 1: society that we live in. So it affects what treatment 133 00:08:21,836 --> 00:08:24,996 Speaker 1: we get, It affects our workplaces, whether we speak up 134 00:08:25,436 --> 00:08:29,076 Speaker 1: and say something when somebody does something inappropriate. It affects 135 00:08:29,076 --> 00:08:32,196 Speaker 1: our communities, affects our lives. And that's why I'm so 136 00:08:32,396 --> 00:08:34,276 Speaker 1: passionate about defiance. 137 00:08:35,396 --> 00:08:39,876 Speaker 2: So on the surface, this is a very compelling definition, 138 00:08:39,956 --> 00:08:42,996 Speaker 2: but I want to get more clarity on what is 139 00:08:43,116 --> 00:08:47,156 Speaker 2: meant by true values in practice, because most of us 140 00:08:47,236 --> 00:08:49,796 Speaker 2: don't walk around with a firm grasp or at least 141 00:08:49,796 --> 00:08:52,996 Speaker 2: a conscious grasp of what our quote true values are. 142 00:08:53,276 --> 00:08:56,396 Speaker 2: So how is it that we go about establishing them 143 00:08:56,876 --> 00:08:58,156 Speaker 2: in this context? 144 00:08:58,476 --> 00:09:01,316 Speaker 1: So the first question that we have to ask when 145 00:09:01,796 --> 00:09:04,476 Speaker 1: we want to defy is who am I? What do 146 00:09:04,596 --> 00:09:07,636 Speaker 1: I stand for? And we do that work well before 147 00:09:07,756 --> 00:09:10,476 Speaker 1: so of a moment of defiance. And when I ask 148 00:09:10,596 --> 00:09:14,396 Speaker 1: my executive students to think about what their values are, 149 00:09:14,516 --> 00:09:19,636 Speaker 1: I ask them to write them down and explain where 150 00:09:19,676 --> 00:09:22,596 Speaker 1: those values came from and why they are so important. 151 00:09:23,156 --> 00:09:25,876 Speaker 1: And these students, they come up with the similar values 152 00:09:25,956 --> 00:09:29,476 Speaker 1: year after year. They end up being quite universal values. 153 00:09:29,516 --> 00:09:36,116 Speaker 1: That often come down to sort of one word like integrity, compassion, equality. 154 00:09:36,596 --> 00:09:39,356 Speaker 1: These are the types of values I see again and again, 155 00:09:39,996 --> 00:09:43,116 Speaker 1: and the reason I ask the students to write them 156 00:09:43,156 --> 00:09:46,156 Speaker 1: down and explain why they are so important is because 157 00:09:46,196 --> 00:09:51,276 Speaker 1: the research shows that our behavior, our intended behaviors, are 158 00:09:51,316 --> 00:09:54,476 Speaker 1: more likely to follow when we know exactly what our 159 00:09:54,556 --> 00:09:58,876 Speaker 1: values are, because one of the biggest gaps is between 160 00:09:59,476 --> 00:10:02,036 Speaker 1: who we think we are and what we actually do. 161 00:10:02,116 --> 00:10:06,436 Speaker 1: So putting those values into action, so clarifying our values 162 00:10:06,516 --> 00:10:10,236 Speaker 1: is just really important. And actually there's some work that 163 00:10:10,356 --> 00:10:13,436 Speaker 1: shows that we also have a lower biological stress reaction 164 00:10:13,636 --> 00:10:16,596 Speaker 1: if we know our values and we're acting in alignment 165 00:10:16,636 --> 00:10:20,396 Speaker 1: with them. So everybody wants lower cort assault, right, So 166 00:10:20,436 --> 00:10:23,556 Speaker 1: that's a good thing to know what your values are. So, 167 00:10:23,756 --> 00:10:27,356 Speaker 1: for example, with the CT scan, what are my values 168 00:10:27,396 --> 00:10:31,836 Speaker 1: in that particular situation? Is my value just listening to 169 00:10:31,876 --> 00:10:34,396 Speaker 1: the doctor and obeying the doctor? I don't think so. 170 00:10:35,236 --> 00:10:39,836 Speaker 1: If your value, your ethical moral stance, comes from just 171 00:10:39,996 --> 00:10:43,236 Speaker 1: listening to the person in authority, perhaps your boss, and 172 00:10:43,756 --> 00:10:47,676 Speaker 1: assessing your actions from how well you obey your boss, 173 00:10:48,276 --> 00:10:52,396 Speaker 1: it can lead you really blind to the greater consequences 174 00:10:52,396 --> 00:10:55,676 Speaker 1: of your action. So we need to think in every situation, 175 00:10:55,956 --> 00:10:58,676 Speaker 1: what is it that I stand for? And if we 176 00:10:58,756 --> 00:11:02,676 Speaker 1: do feel that something is going against our values, think 177 00:11:02,716 --> 00:11:06,196 Speaker 1: about this is the time now for me to speak up. 178 00:11:06,276 --> 00:11:08,356 Speaker 1: This is the time now for me to say something. 179 00:11:09,476 --> 00:11:12,316 Speaker 2: Let's take that healthcare scenario again though with the doctor, 180 00:11:12,436 --> 00:11:17,476 Speaker 2: which is it wasn't just about the value of listening 181 00:11:17,556 --> 00:11:19,316 Speaker 2: to the doctor. I feel like there was something much 182 00:11:19,316 --> 00:11:23,476 Speaker 2: deeper going on, which is, you're someone that values kindness 183 00:11:23,596 --> 00:11:26,876 Speaker 2: and how you make other people feel about themselves, right, 184 00:11:26,956 --> 00:11:28,876 Speaker 2: Like I know you to be a deeply kind person. 185 00:11:29,356 --> 00:11:31,436 Speaker 2: Surely that was weighing in as well, which is you 186 00:11:31,476 --> 00:11:34,476 Speaker 2: didn't want to undermine this person's authority, make them maybe 187 00:11:34,556 --> 00:11:40,556 Speaker 2: question themselves, right, And so do I value my health 188 00:11:40,596 --> 00:11:45,836 Speaker 2: in this moment over the psychological comfort of the physician 189 00:11:45,996 --> 00:11:47,876 Speaker 2: who's ordering this exam for me? 190 00:11:48,316 --> 00:11:51,716 Speaker 1: I agree with you, And so that what I call 191 00:11:51,876 --> 00:11:58,236 Speaker 1: insinuation anxiety, That anxiety of not wanting to send a 192 00:11:58,276 --> 00:12:01,916 Speaker 1: signal of distrust to another person can be really powerful 193 00:12:02,396 --> 00:12:05,436 Speaker 1: and it keeps us silent. It really is an aversive 194 00:12:05,476 --> 00:12:08,716 Speaker 1: emotional state. When we become so concerned with offending the 195 00:12:08,756 --> 00:12:13,316 Speaker 1: other person and we become mute. We have these relationship concerns, 196 00:12:13,316 --> 00:12:15,236 Speaker 1: and what my research shows is that we can have 197 00:12:15,316 --> 00:12:19,316 Speaker 1: them even in one off situations with strangers with no 198 00:12:19,436 --> 00:12:22,076 Speaker 1: power dynamics. So you can imagine how hard it is 199 00:12:22,476 --> 00:12:26,036 Speaker 1: when you're in that medical scenario with somebody who is 200 00:12:26,076 --> 00:12:29,156 Speaker 1: supposed to have your best interests at heart, and we 201 00:12:29,156 --> 00:12:31,716 Speaker 1: don't want to insinuate that our physicians or even our 202 00:12:31,756 --> 00:12:35,276 Speaker 1: co workers or friends or family are not trustworthy. That's 203 00:12:35,356 --> 00:12:39,356 Speaker 1: just too hard to do. So there's one very nice 204 00:12:39,396 --> 00:12:42,996 Speaker 1: example of a woman. She's an academic, she's a young woman, 205 00:12:43,116 --> 00:12:47,436 Speaker 1: and she's on this committee with four senior men looking 206 00:12:47,436 --> 00:12:51,676 Speaker 1: at grant applications, and when one applicant is being discussed, 207 00:12:51,836 --> 00:12:55,636 Speaker 1: she felt like they were going with gossip rather than 208 00:12:55,716 --> 00:12:59,876 Speaker 1: the credentials of the applicant, and she wanted to say 209 00:12:59,916 --> 00:13:02,636 Speaker 1: something because she didn't think this was right or fair, 210 00:13:03,116 --> 00:13:06,036 Speaker 1: and so that went against her values, and it could 211 00:13:06,036 --> 00:13:07,956 Speaker 1: cause harm as well. It could cause harm to the 212 00:13:07,956 --> 00:13:11,796 Speaker 1: applicant's family, like we don't know what extended harm it 213 00:13:11,796 --> 00:13:15,556 Speaker 1: could cause, and she wanted to say something. And then 214 00:13:15,596 --> 00:13:17,596 Speaker 1: she came out of the meeting and she said the 215 00:13:17,676 --> 00:13:21,276 Speaker 1: one thing that she wanted to say was the one 216 00:13:21,356 --> 00:13:25,556 Speaker 1: thing she could not say, and she having met those 217 00:13:25,596 --> 00:13:28,116 Speaker 1: people for the first time, she just did not want 218 00:13:28,156 --> 00:13:30,876 Speaker 1: to insinuate that they didn't know what they was doing 219 00:13:31,036 --> 00:13:34,876 Speaker 1: or that they lacked integrity, and so it was just 220 00:13:34,916 --> 00:13:37,276 Speaker 1: so difficult for her to do so. And I think 221 00:13:37,316 --> 00:13:41,916 Speaker 1: these are the situations that we face so often, that 222 00:13:41,996 --> 00:13:44,916 Speaker 1: we know exactly what we want to do, but something 223 00:13:44,956 --> 00:13:46,236 Speaker 1: prevents us from doing it. 224 00:13:46,916 --> 00:13:49,956 Speaker 2: There's such an irony to insinuation anxiety. Right, I don't 225 00:13:49,956 --> 00:13:52,756 Speaker 2: want to insinuate that they're not acting with integrity, and 226 00:13:52,836 --> 00:13:55,916 Speaker 2: so I will not act with integrity and not raise 227 00:13:55,996 --> 00:13:59,196 Speaker 2: this very important issue, right. And I say that with 228 00:13:59,236 --> 00:14:02,676 Speaker 2: such humility because I to do this all the time, 229 00:14:02,796 --> 00:14:06,476 Speaker 2: right to save other people's feelings. I won't make the 230 00:14:06,556 --> 00:14:08,916 Speaker 2: right ethical choice in some situations because I'm so in 231 00:14:09,196 --> 00:14:12,116 Speaker 2: tent for them not to feel like I'm challenging their 232 00:14:12,196 --> 00:14:12,996 Speaker 2: moral character. 233 00:14:13,516 --> 00:14:15,916 Speaker 1: Yes, and that's the thing that stays with us, that 234 00:14:15,956 --> 00:14:18,596 Speaker 1: feeling of you know, we have that tension that we 235 00:14:18,636 --> 00:14:21,436 Speaker 1: want to say something, and if we don't and we 236 00:14:21,556 --> 00:14:24,476 Speaker 1: let it go, then it really erodes our sense of 237 00:14:24,516 --> 00:14:26,996 Speaker 1: self and who we are and are we rarely a 238 00:14:27,036 --> 00:14:31,436 Speaker 1: person with integrity, you know, So it is very important 239 00:14:31,476 --> 00:14:34,956 Speaker 1: to learn how to say something in that situation in 240 00:14:34,996 --> 00:14:37,796 Speaker 1: a way that's comfortable for us and with far less 241 00:14:37,876 --> 00:14:39,156 Speaker 1: ants than we used to have. 242 00:14:40,076 --> 00:14:44,716 Speaker 2: There's a well known study in psychology that argues that 243 00:14:45,196 --> 00:14:48,476 Speaker 2: complicity is the norm right and defiance is the exception. 244 00:14:49,116 --> 00:14:51,716 Speaker 2: Do you mind telling our listeners about that study? 245 00:14:51,956 --> 00:14:52,276 Speaker 1: Sure? 246 00:14:52,516 --> 00:14:52,676 Speaker 2: So. 247 00:14:52,996 --> 00:14:57,076 Speaker 1: Stanley Milgram he conducted his now infamous studies in the 248 00:14:57,196 --> 00:15:01,716 Speaker 1: early nineteen sixties at Yell, and he was really fascinated 249 00:15:01,796 --> 00:15:05,076 Speaker 1: by sort of the claim from Nazis after World War 250 00:15:05,116 --> 00:15:09,076 Speaker 1: Two that they were just following orders when they committed 251 00:15:09,236 --> 00:15:11,956 Speaker 1: war crimes, and he really wanted to look at whether 252 00:15:11,996 --> 00:15:16,756 Speaker 1: this was a psychological reality or not for human beings. 253 00:15:17,236 --> 00:15:20,476 Speaker 1: So Milgram brought in subjects and you asked them to 254 00:15:20,556 --> 00:15:23,716 Speaker 1: read out these word pairs to somebody else in another room, 255 00:15:24,316 --> 00:15:26,956 Speaker 1: and if the person in the other room couldn't repeat them, 256 00:15:27,156 --> 00:15:31,236 Speaker 1: the participant had to administer an electric shock and increase 257 00:15:31,316 --> 00:15:34,276 Speaker 1: the shock level by fifteen volts every single time they 258 00:15:34,276 --> 00:15:38,396 Speaker 1: got something wrong. If they protested, the experimenter would give 259 00:15:38,436 --> 00:15:41,316 Speaker 1: them some prompts to tell them to continue that please 260 00:15:41,396 --> 00:15:44,796 Speaker 1: go on. The experiment requires you to continue. It's absolutely 261 00:15:44,916 --> 00:15:48,436 Speaker 1: essential that you continue, and you have no choice. You 262 00:15:48,516 --> 00:15:52,156 Speaker 1: must go on. Now, shocks weren't actually being administered to 263 00:15:52,156 --> 00:15:53,836 Speaker 1: the other person. The other person in the room was 264 00:15:53,876 --> 00:15:56,956 Speaker 1: an actor, but the participant didn't know that. And they 265 00:15:56,996 --> 00:15:59,716 Speaker 1: were asked to start off with fifteen volts, which is 266 00:15:59,956 --> 00:16:03,756 Speaker 1: basically harmless. But the board went all the way up 267 00:16:03,836 --> 00:16:06,156 Speaker 1: to four hundred and fifty volts, where it was labeled 268 00:16:06,196 --> 00:16:11,076 Speaker 1: with three x's and danger severe shock. And what he 269 00:16:11,276 --> 00:16:16,596 Speaker 1: found was that even though most psychiatrists predicted that hardly 270 00:16:16,636 --> 00:16:19,116 Speaker 1: anyone would go up to the top voltage of four 271 00:16:19,156 --> 00:16:23,156 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty volts, sixty five percent of participants did. 272 00:16:23,596 --> 00:16:26,036 Speaker 1: They went up to the most severe shock. 273 00:16:26,996 --> 00:16:29,676 Speaker 2: You know. I should note that one criticism of the 274 00:16:29,716 --> 00:16:33,276 Speaker 2: study is that the the sample size is very small. 275 00:16:33,636 --> 00:16:36,476 Speaker 2: But let's assume that this is a legitimate result. I'm 276 00:16:36,556 --> 00:16:40,396 Speaker 2: curious to hear, Sunita, how Milgrim interpreted the results of 277 00:16:40,436 --> 00:16:44,836 Speaker 2: this experiment, and how you, through your lens studying defiance, 278 00:16:45,436 --> 00:16:46,556 Speaker 2: interpret these results. 279 00:16:46,836 --> 00:16:50,196 Speaker 1: So Milgram was actually shocked by these exactly. 280 00:16:50,196 --> 00:16:52,276 Speaker 2: No pun please, I want you to use that word. 281 00:16:52,316 --> 00:16:54,196 Speaker 2: I'm sorry, We're gonna have to continue in the conversation. 282 00:16:55,876 --> 00:17:00,876 Speaker 1: Milgram was actually shocked by these results because he did 283 00:17:00,916 --> 00:17:03,996 Speaker 1: not think that people would go up to the four 284 00:17:04,076 --> 00:17:06,916 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty volt level. So he was actually really shocked, 285 00:17:07,036 --> 00:17:12,036 Speaker 1: and he wanted to repeat different variations of the experiments 286 00:17:12,116 --> 00:17:17,716 Speaker 1: to really find out what led people to be so obedient. 287 00:17:19,036 --> 00:17:22,356 Speaker 1: The way that I interpreted it is that the subjects 288 00:17:22,356 --> 00:17:25,756 Speaker 1: that were obedient to authority, they were showing some signs 289 00:17:25,876 --> 00:17:32,876 Speaker 1: of being uncomfortable, so nervous, laughter, swearing, stuttering, sweating, asking 290 00:17:32,916 --> 00:17:38,436 Speaker 1: the experimenter whether this was okay, And those signs of 291 00:17:38,636 --> 00:17:41,596 Speaker 1: tension to me, really stood out from the subjects because 292 00:17:41,636 --> 00:17:46,516 Speaker 1: it showed me that they weren't completely obeying the experimenter. 293 00:17:47,116 --> 00:17:51,636 Speaker 1: Like what Mulgram had described was this aspect of being 294 00:17:51,796 --> 00:17:55,316 Speaker 1: in an agentic state, in that the participants were following 295 00:17:55,516 --> 00:17:58,716 Speaker 1: orders because the experiment had told them so. But if 296 00:17:58,716 --> 00:18:02,356 Speaker 1: they had given all their agency to the experimenter, they 297 00:18:02,356 --> 00:18:03,836 Speaker 1: wouldn't have felt such tension. 298 00:18:04,636 --> 00:18:08,836 Speaker 2: Yeah, and hearing, I mean the expressions that you just described, 299 00:18:09,676 --> 00:18:13,436 Speaker 2: I'm hearing distress right, Like, those are signs of distress, 300 00:18:13,796 --> 00:18:16,396 Speaker 2: and that's meaningful, and that speaks to the fact that, 301 00:18:16,996 --> 00:18:19,876 Speaker 2: of course there was some inner humanity that maybe didn't 302 00:18:19,916 --> 00:18:22,636 Speaker 2: express itself in the ultimate behavior, which is to say no, 303 00:18:22,756 --> 00:18:25,636 Speaker 2: I'm not going to increase the vultures level more. But 304 00:18:25,716 --> 00:18:28,556 Speaker 2: it's not nothing, right, It's still meaningful to me. 305 00:18:28,836 --> 00:18:31,876 Speaker 1: I really recognize those signs of tension. I just thought 306 00:18:31,876 --> 00:18:35,676 Speaker 1: those subjects are like me. They want to defy, they 307 00:18:35,836 --> 00:18:39,356 Speaker 1: just don't know how to defy. And that is what 308 00:18:39,436 --> 00:18:43,756 Speaker 1: really captured me about Milgram's experiments, was that how can 309 00:18:43,836 --> 00:18:45,236 Speaker 1: we learn how to defy? 310 00:18:45,876 --> 00:18:48,636 Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, So we talked about one of the major 311 00:18:48,876 --> 00:18:53,556 Speaker 2: drivers of obedience, which is insinuation anxiety. Right, we don't 312 00:18:53,716 --> 00:18:55,876 Speaker 2: want to signal that we have a negative opinion of 313 00:18:55,916 --> 00:18:59,116 Speaker 2: another person, or that we have apprehension or worry or 314 00:18:59,156 --> 00:19:03,716 Speaker 2: we don't trust them. What are other drivers of obedience? Like, 315 00:19:03,756 --> 00:19:05,476 Speaker 2: what are other reasons why we have a really hard 316 00:19:05,516 --> 00:19:08,476 Speaker 2: time saying no or standing up for what we believe in. 317 00:19:09,156 --> 00:19:11,556 Speaker 1: So one is this enormous pressure to go along with 318 00:19:11,596 --> 00:19:15,836 Speaker 1: other people. One factor can be insinuation anxiety, or as 319 00:19:15,916 --> 00:19:18,796 Speaker 1: fearing the consequences that we're going to lose a relationship 320 00:19:18,876 --> 00:19:21,756 Speaker 1: or a job. So there's what are the consequences of 321 00:19:22,156 --> 00:19:27,636 Speaker 1: defying in this situation? And then once we decide to defy, 322 00:19:28,156 --> 00:19:30,956 Speaker 1: we don't know exactly how to do it. We have 323 00:19:31,036 --> 00:19:34,276 Speaker 1: been so trained in compliance from a young age, and 324 00:19:34,316 --> 00:19:37,996 Speaker 1: we've become so socialized to comply and to obey that 325 00:19:38,076 --> 00:19:40,276 Speaker 1: we don't have the skill set for defiance. We don't 326 00:19:40,316 --> 00:19:42,636 Speaker 1: know how to do it. We never get trained in 327 00:19:42,716 --> 00:19:45,436 Speaker 1: how to be defiant and speak up when it matters, 328 00:19:45,956 --> 00:19:48,676 Speaker 1: and so is that training that's missing from our lives. 329 00:19:51,076 --> 00:19:54,196 Speaker 2: After the break, Sunita gives us a lesson in defiance 330 00:19:54,236 --> 00:19:56,636 Speaker 2: one oh one. We'll be back in a moment with 331 00:19:56,716 --> 00:20:10,356 Speaker 2: a slight change of plans, talking about how hard it 332 00:20:10,396 --> 00:20:13,276 Speaker 2: can be to stand up for ourselves, to set boundaries 333 00:20:13,316 --> 00:20:16,996 Speaker 2: and just say no. My guest, Uneatha knows the struggle 334 00:20:16,996 --> 00:20:20,396 Speaker 2: of defiance all too well. It's something she's been plagued 335 00:20:20,396 --> 00:20:23,356 Speaker 2: with her whole life, but she's found a way through it. 336 00:20:24,156 --> 00:20:27,236 Speaker 2: She's developed a simple framework to help us navigate those 337 00:20:27,276 --> 00:20:30,756 Speaker 2: tough moments, the ones where we hesitate, where we wish 338 00:20:30,836 --> 00:20:33,476 Speaker 2: we had just the right words, where we want to 339 00:20:33,516 --> 00:20:39,076 Speaker 2: push back but aren't sure how. Her framework has five stages, So. 340 00:20:39,076 --> 00:20:41,516 Speaker 1: The stages of defiance are things that we can start 341 00:20:41,556 --> 00:20:43,796 Speaker 1: to recognize, and we don't always go through them in 342 00:20:43,796 --> 00:20:46,356 Speaker 1: a linear fashion. We might skip a stage or go 343 00:20:46,436 --> 00:20:49,276 Speaker 1: back and forth, but they're really useful to know as 344 00:20:49,316 --> 00:20:53,556 Speaker 1: a framework for how we can defy. So the first 345 00:20:53,556 --> 00:20:56,476 Speaker 1: stage is this tension. This is what we often feel 346 00:20:56,476 --> 00:20:59,756 Speaker 1: when we're in a situation where we're being pulled between 347 00:20:59,796 --> 00:21:04,316 Speaker 1: two forces. One where we're expected to do something by 348 00:21:04,476 --> 00:21:09,276 Speaker 1: either another person, authority, a peer, or just expectations all societie. 349 00:21:09,876 --> 00:21:13,196 Speaker 1: You know, there's this expectation of us and then what 350 00:21:13,236 --> 00:21:16,196 Speaker 1: we believe is the right thing to do. Whenever we're 351 00:21:16,236 --> 00:21:19,956 Speaker 1: in that situation, we feel some tension. I often describe 352 00:21:19,996 --> 00:21:23,116 Speaker 1: it as our resistance to resistance. It's really telling us 353 00:21:23,516 --> 00:21:26,396 Speaker 1: that we want to defy, but we actually resist it. 354 00:21:26,756 --> 00:21:30,036 Speaker 2: And can you describe what that tension feels like for listeners? 355 00:21:30,036 --> 00:21:32,236 Speaker 2: Like what am I feeling in my body when that happens? 356 00:21:32,636 --> 00:21:34,796 Speaker 1: So it's different for each one of us, and we 357 00:21:34,836 --> 00:21:37,916 Speaker 1: can get to know what is the telltale sign for us. 358 00:21:38,316 --> 00:21:41,156 Speaker 1: So for some people they feel unease in the stomach. 359 00:21:41,276 --> 00:21:44,356 Speaker 1: I definitely feel that. For others they get a headache, 360 00:21:44,436 --> 00:21:47,236 Speaker 1: or they feel their voice being constricted or their throat 361 00:21:47,276 --> 00:21:50,476 Speaker 1: becoming tight. Other people feel their heart rate going up, 362 00:21:51,396 --> 00:21:56,236 Speaker 1: dry mouth, So it manifests in different ways, and it's 363 00:21:56,316 --> 00:21:59,116 Speaker 1: really useful to know what it feels like for you. 364 00:21:59,196 --> 00:22:01,276 Speaker 1: If you can figure out this is Oh, I've felt 365 00:22:01,276 --> 00:22:02,236 Speaker 1: this feeling before. 366 00:22:02,876 --> 00:22:06,876 Speaker 2: See that you've literally just described every physiological response I 367 00:22:06,916 --> 00:22:08,916 Speaker 2: have watching the news in twenty twenty five. 368 00:22:09,396 --> 00:22:10,116 Speaker 1: So thank you. 369 00:22:10,116 --> 00:22:13,156 Speaker 2: Actually try all of them. Is that one of the options. 370 00:22:12,676 --> 00:22:14,956 Speaker 1: That you can have all of them? Yes, you can 371 00:22:15,036 --> 00:22:15,796 Speaker 1: have all of these. 372 00:22:17,596 --> 00:22:18,516 Speaker 2: Nausea is that one? 373 00:22:18,556 --> 00:22:22,956 Speaker 1: I am? Okay, that's one of them. So just really knowing, like, oh, 374 00:22:22,996 --> 00:22:26,876 Speaker 1: I recognize this feeling. I've had this feeling before, and 375 00:22:27,436 --> 00:22:31,356 Speaker 1: that's actually Stage two is acknowledging that this is going on, 376 00:22:31,396 --> 00:22:34,676 Speaker 1: because so often we disregard it. We think it's not 377 00:22:34,716 --> 00:22:37,356 Speaker 1: worth our doubt. We think that the other person must 378 00:22:37,356 --> 00:22:40,196 Speaker 1: know better, like when I'm having my CT scan, Oh, 379 00:22:40,236 --> 00:22:42,156 Speaker 1: they must know something that I don't know, you know, 380 00:22:42,396 --> 00:22:45,516 Speaker 1: So we often disregard it go along with the confidence 381 00:22:45,556 --> 00:22:48,076 Speaker 1: of the other person. And that's a shame because that 382 00:22:48,236 --> 00:22:50,996 Speaker 1: tension is actually a warning sign to us that we 383 00:22:51,116 --> 00:22:54,356 Speaker 1: might need to defy. So paying attention to it and 384 00:22:54,436 --> 00:22:58,796 Speaker 1: acknowledging it is stage two. So just like recognizing I've 385 00:22:58,796 --> 00:23:02,356 Speaker 1: had this before, this is something where I'm expected to 386 00:23:02,356 --> 00:23:04,516 Speaker 1: do something that I don't think is the right thing 387 00:23:04,556 --> 00:23:08,716 Speaker 1: to do. Then stage three is the really critical stage 388 00:23:09,316 --> 00:23:15,996 Speaker 1: because it's just telling somebody else. It's externalizing, vocalizing to 389 00:23:16,076 --> 00:23:20,036 Speaker 1: someone else other than yourself that you're not comfortable with this, 390 00:23:20,876 --> 00:23:23,516 Speaker 1: And that stage is so critical because if you can 391 00:23:23,596 --> 00:23:26,116 Speaker 1: do that, it means you're more likely to get to 392 00:23:26,156 --> 00:23:29,476 Speaker 1: stage five because you can't go back in time and say, oh, 393 00:23:29,516 --> 00:23:32,996 Speaker 1: you were fine with this because you're too much cognitive dissonance. 394 00:23:33,076 --> 00:23:36,516 Speaker 1: Now you've told somebody else that you're not fine with this, 395 00:23:37,036 --> 00:23:40,796 Speaker 1: And in this situation, all you're doing is clarifying how 396 00:23:40,836 --> 00:23:44,476 Speaker 1: you feel, so either I'm uncomfortable with this, or asking 397 00:23:44,516 --> 00:23:47,116 Speaker 1: what do you mean by that? Sort of testing the waters. 398 00:23:47,676 --> 00:23:50,396 Speaker 1: You're still in that position where you're not saying anything 399 00:23:50,916 --> 00:23:55,316 Speaker 1: that's confrontational. You could just be acting with curiosity. So 400 00:23:55,476 --> 00:23:58,916 Speaker 1: if somebody has said something inappropriate, can you clarify what 401 00:23:58,956 --> 00:24:01,836 Speaker 1: you mean? Have you considered doing this? So they're just 402 00:24:02,156 --> 00:24:04,876 Speaker 1: questions that you can ask in that situation. 403 00:24:05,436 --> 00:24:07,356 Speaker 2: You know, I mentioned that this is a personal resonance. 404 00:24:07,356 --> 00:24:11,516 Speaker 2: I was actually misdiagno with juvenile rheumatoid arthritis for seven 405 00:24:11,556 --> 00:24:15,076 Speaker 2: years because you know, I think we were afraid to 406 00:24:15,156 --> 00:24:17,756 Speaker 2: speak up and kind of challenge authorities, right, And so 407 00:24:17,836 --> 00:24:21,476 Speaker 2: these days I'm I'm the most curious patient you'll ever meet. 408 00:24:21,756 --> 00:24:24,116 Speaker 2: I Am every doctor's worst nightmare. 409 00:24:24,596 --> 00:24:29,556 Speaker 1: So curiosity not confrontation at this point, just I'm not 410 00:24:29,596 --> 00:24:32,556 Speaker 1: comfortable with this. Can you clarify a little bit more 411 00:24:32,596 --> 00:24:35,996 Speaker 1: for me? Or if somebody makes an inappropriate remark, what 412 00:24:36,036 --> 00:24:36,876 Speaker 1: do you mean by that? 413 00:24:37,996 --> 00:24:41,716 Speaker 2: So to summarize so far, that we've gone through three stages, right, 414 00:24:41,756 --> 00:24:46,436 Speaker 2: So we have tension and feeling that tension, then acknowledging 415 00:24:46,516 --> 00:24:49,836 Speaker 2: to ourselves that we're feeling that tension or discomfort, and 416 00:24:49,876 --> 00:24:53,276 Speaker 2: then the third stage is escalation, right where we're vocalizing 417 00:24:53,476 --> 00:24:57,156 Speaker 2: that discomfort to others, thereby cementing it in the world 418 00:24:57,156 --> 00:24:59,316 Speaker 2: in some way. Right, we can't take it back, we 419 00:25:00,156 --> 00:25:03,276 Speaker 2: make it clear. It's an indelible ink somewhere in someone's mind. 420 00:25:04,636 --> 00:25:05,916 Speaker 2: What is stage four? 421 00:25:06,636 --> 00:25:10,796 Speaker 1: Stage four is now your threat of non compliance, So 422 00:25:10,916 --> 00:25:14,756 Speaker 1: saying you cannot do that, So somebody has an expectation 423 00:25:15,036 --> 00:25:17,876 Speaker 1: for you to take the CT scan do something you 424 00:25:17,916 --> 00:25:22,036 Speaker 1: don't want to do, you're just basically telling them that 425 00:25:22,036 --> 00:25:24,876 Speaker 1: you're not going to comply. At this point, you've gone 426 00:25:24,916 --> 00:25:28,676 Speaker 1: from asking questions putting it out there that you're not comfortable, 427 00:25:28,676 --> 00:25:31,316 Speaker 1: and now is I cannot do that, and then the 428 00:25:31,316 --> 00:25:34,156 Speaker 1: fifth stage, the actual act of defiance. 429 00:25:34,396 --> 00:25:39,436 Speaker 2: Yeah, do you mind walking me through an example from 430 00:25:39,436 --> 00:25:42,556 Speaker 2: your life where you put some of these stages in action. 431 00:25:43,076 --> 00:25:47,636 Speaker 1: So absolutely, having failed with the CT scan quite spectacularly, 432 00:25:48,396 --> 00:25:52,036 Speaker 1: I actually carried that with me and thought about it 433 00:25:52,116 --> 00:25:55,396 Speaker 1: a lot. What would I have preferred to have done 434 00:25:55,436 --> 00:26:00,276 Speaker 1: in this situation, because this probably was going to happen again, 435 00:26:00,716 --> 00:26:04,596 Speaker 1: And so it did. About a year later, I had 436 00:26:04,676 --> 00:26:07,916 Speaker 1: some pain in my shoulder and it got pretty bad 437 00:26:07,956 --> 00:26:10,876 Speaker 1: in that I couldn't move my arm at times, I 438 00:26:10,876 --> 00:26:14,276 Speaker 1: couldn't do simple routine tasks like getting dressed, and so 439 00:26:14,556 --> 00:26:17,556 Speaker 1: I decided I needed some physical therapy, and so I 440 00:26:17,596 --> 00:26:20,476 Speaker 1: looked up how I could get a physical therapy referral, 441 00:26:20,836 --> 00:26:23,156 Speaker 1: and I needed to go and see a doctor. So 442 00:26:23,236 --> 00:26:26,636 Speaker 1: I went to the clinic. I immediately felt like I 443 00:26:26,676 --> 00:26:29,076 Speaker 1: was on some kind of conveyor belt. There was like 444 00:26:29,116 --> 00:26:32,796 Speaker 1: a forest of paperwork to fill out and hand over, 445 00:26:32,876 --> 00:26:36,636 Speaker 1: bank details, all these things. And then eventually somebody called 446 00:26:36,636 --> 00:26:40,556 Speaker 1: out my name and I started walking behind them, and 447 00:26:40,596 --> 00:26:43,036 Speaker 1: I looked up and at the end of this long corridor, 448 00:26:43,116 --> 00:26:45,956 Speaker 1: I could see a big sign that said X ray, 449 00:26:46,676 --> 00:26:48,916 Speaker 1: and I kind of laughed in my head. I was like, oh, 450 00:26:48,916 --> 00:26:50,876 Speaker 1: it would be so funny if they took me for 451 00:26:50,916 --> 00:26:52,796 Speaker 1: an X ray before I went to see the doctor. 452 00:26:53,436 --> 00:26:56,516 Speaker 1: And then we started walking more and more towards that sign, 453 00:26:57,196 --> 00:26:59,676 Speaker 1: and so I stopped and I said, where are we going? 454 00:26:59,876 --> 00:27:01,716 Speaker 1: Are we going to see the doctor? And she said, oh, 455 00:27:01,716 --> 00:27:03,876 Speaker 1: we're going to get your X ray? And I said, oh, 456 00:27:03,916 --> 00:27:07,076 Speaker 1: my gosh, you're like dajah x ray. I hadn't seen 457 00:27:07,116 --> 00:27:10,596 Speaker 1: the doctor yet. And she said, of all new patients 458 00:27:10,636 --> 00:27:13,876 Speaker 1: have an X ray before seeing the doctor. And I 459 00:27:13,956 --> 00:27:16,996 Speaker 1: was astounded because being a physician, again, I had been 460 00:27:17,036 --> 00:27:20,756 Speaker 1: trained that the way that you practice medicine is to 461 00:27:21,476 --> 00:27:24,956 Speaker 1: always see the patient first. So this stunned me and 462 00:27:25,036 --> 00:27:27,156 Speaker 1: I just said, but I haven't seen the doctor yet. 463 00:27:28,956 --> 00:27:31,796 Speaker 1: And she then looked at me and she said, are 464 00:27:31,836 --> 00:27:34,916 Speaker 1: you refusing an X ray? And I could feel that. 465 00:27:34,956 --> 00:27:39,756 Speaker 3: I mean, you're like, hell, yes, I found that tension. 466 00:27:40,356 --> 00:27:44,116 Speaker 3: I recognize that tension. I acknowledged it. I didn't even 467 00:27:44,196 --> 00:27:45,796 Speaker 3: ask any questions at this point. 468 00:27:45,916 --> 00:27:52,276 Speaker 2: I just said, yes, I am amazing. 469 00:27:52,436 --> 00:27:54,916 Speaker 1: And so she took me back to my seat. I 470 00:27:54,996 --> 00:27:57,676 Speaker 1: sat there. She had no idea what to do with me, 471 00:27:58,436 --> 00:28:00,996 Speaker 1: and during that time I squirmed a little bit. I thought, 472 00:28:00,996 --> 00:28:03,556 Speaker 1: oh my goodness, I'm being the difficult patient. I got 473 00:28:03,556 --> 00:28:07,156 Speaker 1: called in to see other healthcare professionals. They opened the 474 00:28:07,196 --> 00:28:10,276 Speaker 1: file each time, and each time they would say no 475 00:28:10,596 --> 00:28:14,196 Speaker 1: x ray. I would say no, no, no x ray. 476 00:28:14,996 --> 00:28:19,196 Speaker 1: And eventually I saw the doctor. He opened the file 477 00:28:19,876 --> 00:28:21,876 Speaker 1: and he looked at me and he said no x ray. 478 00:28:22,476 --> 00:28:25,516 Speaker 1: I went no. The way I got taught medicine is 479 00:28:25,516 --> 00:28:27,996 Speaker 1: that you see the patient first, and then if I 480 00:28:28,036 --> 00:28:30,316 Speaker 1: need the X ray, I'll have the x ray. And 481 00:28:30,356 --> 00:28:32,836 Speaker 1: I said, you haven't examined me yet, and he kind 482 00:28:32,836 --> 00:28:35,196 Speaker 1: of hurried over and sort of poked my shoulder a 483 00:28:35,236 --> 00:28:37,876 Speaker 1: little bit. He didn't even check the full range of movement. 484 00:28:38,316 --> 00:28:40,636 Speaker 1: And then he went back to his seat and he 485 00:28:40,636 --> 00:28:42,916 Speaker 1: said you have to have that x ray and I 486 00:28:42,956 --> 00:28:44,956 Speaker 1: said why, Like, what do you think's wrong with me? 487 00:28:45,476 --> 00:28:46,876 Speaker 1: And he said, I want to make sure you don't 488 00:28:46,916 --> 00:28:51,596 Speaker 1: have anything bony going on And I said bony? What 489 00:28:51,716 --> 00:28:55,436 Speaker 1: do you mean and he said bone cancer? And I 490 00:28:55,436 --> 00:28:58,276 Speaker 1: still raised my eyebrows and I said you think I 491 00:28:58,316 --> 00:29:01,316 Speaker 1: have bone cancer? And he was like, oh no, no, 492 00:29:01,316 --> 00:29:04,356 Speaker 1: no no, and then he sort of looked at his desk. 493 00:29:04,436 --> 00:29:07,196 Speaker 1: He ramped his pen on it and then he said 494 00:29:08,116 --> 00:29:12,996 Speaker 1: this is how we practice medicine here, and we just 495 00:29:13,036 --> 00:29:16,116 Speaker 1: went silent because we both knew that was not an 496 00:29:16,156 --> 00:29:19,996 Speaker 1: appropriate thing to say. And in the end I managed 497 00:29:20,036 --> 00:29:23,116 Speaker 1: to say, listen, I would really like some physical therapy 498 00:29:23,156 --> 00:29:27,836 Speaker 1: because I think I have inflammation, and if that physical 499 00:29:27,876 --> 00:29:30,636 Speaker 1: therapy doesn't get rid of it, I'll come back in 500 00:29:30,676 --> 00:29:33,196 Speaker 1: a month to six weeks and I'll have that X ray. 501 00:29:33,476 --> 00:29:36,676 Speaker 1: So he gave me the referral. I felt proud and 502 00:29:36,716 --> 00:29:40,396 Speaker 1: liberated and I left that room and I was so 503 00:29:40,636 --> 00:29:44,636 Speaker 1: happy I did not comply just because of that pressure. 504 00:29:46,196 --> 00:29:48,756 Speaker 2: I want to talk about the role of power plays 505 00:29:48,796 --> 00:29:50,716 Speaker 2: and all of this because it feels like there's no 506 00:29:50,756 --> 00:29:55,436 Speaker 2: conversation about defiance without talking about power dynamics. How do 507 00:29:55,476 --> 00:29:58,756 Speaker 2: you think about that tension? Right, So it's much easier 508 00:29:58,756 --> 00:30:03,316 Speaker 2: for a boss to defy in the workplace versus a 509 00:30:03,636 --> 00:30:04,876 Speaker 2: junior employee. 510 00:30:05,156 --> 00:30:07,316 Speaker 1: I think that makes a great difference. So we do 511 00:30:07,436 --> 00:30:10,196 Speaker 1: need to be aware of power dynamic and also what 512 00:30:10,236 --> 00:30:14,796 Speaker 1: I call the defiance hierarchy, in that some people are 513 00:30:14,836 --> 00:30:20,436 Speaker 1: allowed to be defiant and others face much greater consequences, 514 00:30:20,636 --> 00:30:24,236 Speaker 1: much greater costs for being defiant, and we need to 515 00:30:24,276 --> 00:30:29,316 Speaker 1: be aware of that, because the people that experience those 516 00:30:29,356 --> 00:30:32,716 Speaker 1: greater costs of defiance are often the ones that also 517 00:30:32,916 --> 00:30:36,516 Speaker 1: need to define more often, because the expectation for them 518 00:30:36,556 --> 00:30:41,236 Speaker 1: to comply and be subservient is far greater. And so yes, 519 00:30:41,476 --> 00:30:44,316 Speaker 1: they have this double wammy of we expect you to 520 00:30:44,356 --> 00:30:47,756 Speaker 1: be compliant and so they need to be defined more often, 521 00:30:47,836 --> 00:30:50,516 Speaker 1: and then there's more of a backlash and more costs. So, 522 00:30:51,236 --> 00:30:53,836 Speaker 1: in other words, it is a privilege to be able 523 00:30:53,876 --> 00:30:56,596 Speaker 1: to defy, and we need to afford that privilege to 524 00:30:56,636 --> 00:31:00,516 Speaker 1: everyone and be really cognizant of who we allow to 525 00:31:00,556 --> 00:31:05,796 Speaker 1: defy and the consequences that we give out to people 526 00:31:05,836 --> 00:31:09,276 Speaker 1: that we think at being defiant in a way that 527 00:31:09,356 --> 00:31:10,196 Speaker 1: we might not like. 528 00:31:12,036 --> 00:31:14,876 Speaker 2: I'm wondering if we could do a rapid fire situation 529 00:31:14,916 --> 00:31:17,916 Speaker 2: where I propose it hypothetical to you and I hear 530 00:31:17,996 --> 00:31:21,316 Speaker 2: about at least the first step you would take to defy. 531 00:31:21,716 --> 00:31:24,916 Speaker 2: So you've just received a haircut. You look in the mirror. 532 00:31:25,796 --> 00:31:29,956 Speaker 2: It's a horrifying scene. Your hairdresser asks you, Sumita, do 533 00:31:29,996 --> 00:31:32,476 Speaker 2: you like this haircut? Wow? It looks it looks so 534 00:31:32,716 --> 00:31:37,116 Speaker 2: modern and cool, But you are worried about expressing your 535 00:31:37,236 --> 00:31:39,996 Speaker 2: true beliefs. About the matter, right, You're you don't want 536 00:31:39,996 --> 00:31:44,236 Speaker 2: to insinuate anything, but you now have to wear a 537 00:31:44,276 --> 00:31:48,076 Speaker 2: hat for the next three months until said haircut grows out. 538 00:31:48,556 --> 00:31:50,956 Speaker 2: What is your approach to this situation? And by the way, 539 00:31:50,996 --> 00:31:53,916 Speaker 2: this is your longtime hairdresser, so like your loyal customer, 540 00:31:54,036 --> 00:31:56,476 Speaker 2: and you care about them, and you know you don't 541 00:31:56,476 --> 00:31:57,796 Speaker 2: want to see this relationship end. 542 00:31:58,276 --> 00:32:00,076 Speaker 1: So I have actually been in this situation. 543 00:32:02,276 --> 00:32:05,236 Speaker 2: Nice, nice, So tell me what the defiance expert did. 544 00:32:05,836 --> 00:32:12,356 Speaker 1: Okay, point in my life, I was deeply upset with 545 00:32:12,436 --> 00:32:15,756 Speaker 1: the haircut because it was nothing like what I wanted. 546 00:32:15,956 --> 00:32:19,756 Speaker 1: And this is classic insinuation anxiety. That we're sat on 547 00:32:19,796 --> 00:32:22,436 Speaker 1: the chair and it's like, oh, trust me, and the 548 00:32:22,516 --> 00:32:25,716 Speaker 1: cutting and the cutting, and you're thinking, no, no, no, 549 00:32:26,356 --> 00:32:29,436 Speaker 1: how can you express that? How can you express that 550 00:32:29,516 --> 00:32:32,156 Speaker 1: before it's too late? What are you telling me is 551 00:32:32,156 --> 00:32:35,276 Speaker 1: that it's already too late. Right, it's already been cut 552 00:32:35,476 --> 00:32:38,876 Speaker 1: and you don't particularly like it, But a lot of 553 00:32:38,956 --> 00:32:41,836 Speaker 1: us do in that situation. At least if you like me, maybe, 554 00:32:41,836 --> 00:32:45,836 Speaker 1: if you like you's probably sort of pay and tip 555 00:32:46,556 --> 00:32:49,436 Speaker 1: and then leave. And in one situation, I did do that, 556 00:32:49,556 --> 00:32:51,716 Speaker 1: and I actually went home and I cried because it 557 00:32:51,796 --> 00:32:55,956 Speaker 1: was asymmetrical. It was awful. And then I went back 558 00:32:56,036 --> 00:32:58,796 Speaker 1: the next day and I said, you need to fix it. 559 00:33:00,076 --> 00:33:03,356 Speaker 1: So I did do that. One of the things about 560 00:33:03,396 --> 00:33:07,956 Speaker 1: defiance is the fact that it is this proactive positive thoughts, 561 00:33:07,996 --> 00:33:10,436 Speaker 1: and if we go back to the deaf is to devise, 562 00:33:10,556 --> 00:33:12,716 Speaker 1: it is to act in accordance with your true values 563 00:33:12,756 --> 00:33:15,196 Speaker 1: when there is pressure to do otherwise. So there's not 564 00:33:15,356 --> 00:33:18,796 Speaker 1: a lot of value at stake here. So there's certain 565 00:33:18,876 --> 00:33:22,956 Speaker 1: situations that we can practice our definancing, especially if you 566 00:33:23,036 --> 00:33:25,556 Speaker 1: want to maintain the relationship, because it's so easy to 567 00:33:25,636 --> 00:33:27,076 Speaker 1: just sort of say I'm never going to go back 568 00:33:27,076 --> 00:33:30,396 Speaker 1: to that person again, because we don't communicate, just say, here, 569 00:33:30,636 --> 00:33:34,116 Speaker 1: you know, this is actually not exactly what I like. 570 00:33:34,356 --> 00:33:36,396 Speaker 1: Is there anything you can do to make it more 571 00:33:37,196 --> 00:33:40,796 Speaker 1: the way that I would feel happy with? And have 572 00:33:40,876 --> 00:33:45,996 Speaker 1: that communication with your hairdresser. But we can start practicing 573 00:33:46,036 --> 00:33:50,076 Speaker 1: in these situations. For other situations where our values are 574 00:33:50,156 --> 00:33:55,236 Speaker 1: actually violated, we can practice in the restaurant though, if 575 00:33:55,276 --> 00:33:57,956 Speaker 1: we don't like the food or the food is not 576 00:33:58,556 --> 00:34:01,036 Speaker 1: cooked the way we want all As I remember once 577 00:34:01,116 --> 00:34:02,956 Speaker 1: after having my son, and it was the first time 578 00:34:02,996 --> 00:34:05,116 Speaker 1: I've been out in a long time with a group 579 00:34:05,156 --> 00:34:07,636 Speaker 1: of other women that also had and the food for 580 00:34:07,756 --> 00:34:09,956 Speaker 1: all of us when it came it was so salty, 581 00:34:10,516 --> 00:34:12,916 Speaker 1: and we were all complaining about it. And then somebody 582 00:34:12,956 --> 00:34:15,196 Speaker 1: came around and said, is everything okay? And we all 583 00:34:15,236 --> 00:34:17,836 Speaker 1: looked up and we said, yes, everything's fine. 584 00:34:19,436 --> 00:34:22,756 Speaker 2: Even though this is as you're like guzzling glasses of water. 585 00:34:24,076 --> 00:34:27,916 Speaker 1: So we cannot stop practicing for defiance in those situations 586 00:34:27,996 --> 00:34:32,116 Speaker 1: which are kind of low cost. And yes, nothing great 587 00:34:32,436 --> 00:34:37,236 Speaker 1: is being damaged and values are not being compromised hugely, 588 00:34:37,676 --> 00:34:41,036 Speaker 1: but we can just practice defiance muscles and build them 589 00:34:41,116 --> 00:34:42,276 Speaker 1: up in these situations. 590 00:34:42,996 --> 00:34:45,636 Speaker 2: We talked about stage five being the active defiance, and 591 00:34:45,636 --> 00:34:47,596 Speaker 2: I want to add a stage six, which is the 592 00:34:47,956 --> 00:34:51,156 Speaker 2: aftermath of defiance where you know, we had even cross 593 00:34:51,196 --> 00:34:54,676 Speaker 2: on the show. We can get mired in so much 594 00:34:55,076 --> 00:34:59,316 Speaker 2: negative chatter in our minds, regret, people being disappointed with us, 595 00:34:59,396 --> 00:35:03,796 Speaker 2: angry with us, let down us, being anxious about whether 596 00:35:03,916 --> 00:35:06,236 Speaker 2: now our job's at stake, our relationships at stake, and 597 00:35:06,316 --> 00:35:10,196 Speaker 2: so how can we grapple with those negative emotions and 598 00:35:10,756 --> 00:35:14,196 Speaker 2: stay resolute in our convictions when we're getting so many 599 00:35:14,236 --> 00:35:15,556 Speaker 2: signals to the contrary. 600 00:35:15,636 --> 00:35:19,596 Speaker 1: Yeah, also a fantastic question. And there's a few things 601 00:35:19,636 --> 00:35:23,396 Speaker 1: here that come into play. One is, when we decide 602 00:35:23,436 --> 00:35:26,836 Speaker 1: to defy, we need to make sure that we have 603 00:35:26,956 --> 00:35:30,916 Speaker 1: those five elements ready for our true no, that we 604 00:35:30,956 --> 00:35:33,076 Speaker 1: do have the capacity and we have the knowledge and 605 00:35:33,236 --> 00:35:37,116 Speaker 1: understanding of the situation and the freedom to say no 606 00:35:37,556 --> 00:35:40,756 Speaker 1: before we give our true no, Because if we do 607 00:35:40,836 --> 00:35:44,356 Speaker 1: really understand that, then we know what the costs are 608 00:35:44,396 --> 00:35:46,436 Speaker 1: going to be. Is it going to be safe? Is 609 00:35:46,476 --> 00:35:48,676 Speaker 1: it going to be effective? Is the two questions that 610 00:35:48,716 --> 00:35:51,516 Speaker 1: we ask when we're assessing the situation for defiance. 611 00:35:51,916 --> 00:35:55,036 Speaker 2: Yeah, and we so rarely get resolution in the short term. 612 00:35:55,036 --> 00:35:57,516 Speaker 2: We don't know how our acts of defiance will play 613 00:35:57,556 --> 00:36:00,956 Speaker 2: out over time, right, Like maybe in the immediate aftermath, 614 00:36:00,956 --> 00:36:04,356 Speaker 2: our bosses quite nice and solicitous, and then six months 615 00:36:04,436 --> 00:36:06,916 Speaker 2: later suddenly you get a layoff notice. Right, So we 616 00:36:06,996 --> 00:36:08,836 Speaker 2: have to be we have to somehow find a way 617 00:36:08,836 --> 00:36:11,956 Speaker 2: to be comfortable with that uncertainty. And I think that's 618 00:36:12,236 --> 00:36:15,156 Speaker 2: part of the agitation, right, That's part of what you're 619 00:36:15,196 --> 00:36:19,116 Speaker 2: signing up for when you defy, is a lot of uncertainty. 620 00:36:19,516 --> 00:36:21,916 Speaker 1: There is that, But we also need to know, since 621 00:36:21,956 --> 00:36:24,116 Speaker 1: you're talking about the negative emotions and the chatter in 622 00:36:24,156 --> 00:36:27,796 Speaker 1: our heads. We also need to assess the cost for compliance, 623 00:36:28,076 --> 00:36:30,596 Speaker 1: because it takes a great toll on us. If we 624 00:36:31,276 --> 00:36:34,236 Speaker 1: constantly disregarding our values and bowing our head to other 625 00:36:34,236 --> 00:36:38,236 Speaker 1: people and we can't be out authentic selves, then that 626 00:36:38,316 --> 00:36:41,036 Speaker 1: takes a toll on us. It increases chronic stress, and 627 00:36:41,076 --> 00:36:46,756 Speaker 1: it increases burnout, dissatisfaction, even inflammation. So it's affecting us emotionally. 628 00:36:46,876 --> 00:36:50,596 Speaker 1: It's affecting us with that chatter negative emotions in our head. 629 00:36:50,596 --> 00:36:55,516 Speaker 1: It's affecting us psychologically, spiritually, and even physically. So we 630 00:36:55,596 --> 00:36:57,756 Speaker 1: do need to be aware of the cost of compliance 631 00:36:57,796 --> 00:37:00,956 Speaker 1: as well as the cost of defiance. Yes, there still 632 00:37:01,036 --> 00:37:04,756 Speaker 1: might be consequences, but that's different from the tension and 633 00:37:04,796 --> 00:37:08,116 Speaker 1: the anxiety and the stress that you were experiencing before 634 00:37:08,436 --> 00:37:10,196 Speaker 1: when you have to go against your values. 635 00:37:10,636 --> 00:37:13,676 Speaker 2: That is a fantastic answer, because I think in this 636 00:37:13,836 --> 00:37:18,756 Speaker 2: moment I wrongly believed, Oh, the counterfactual world is neutral, right, 637 00:37:18,756 --> 00:37:21,476 Speaker 2: it's either you defy or it's neutral. But actually I 638 00:37:21,596 --> 00:37:25,996 Speaker 2: forgot about the psychic risks associated with conformity and compliance. 639 00:37:26,036 --> 00:37:28,956 Speaker 2: And like you said, one of the telltale signs that 640 00:37:28,996 --> 00:37:33,956 Speaker 2: you need to defy is this physiological expression of tension, right, 641 00:37:34,076 --> 00:37:36,956 Speaker 2: So who wants to live with that chronic tension? That 642 00:37:36,956 --> 00:37:39,596 Speaker 2: that's not good for you either. So, and there's such 643 00:37:39,596 --> 00:37:43,196 Speaker 2: a hopeful message contained in what you just said. You know, 644 00:37:43,196 --> 00:37:46,316 Speaker 2: it's very tempting to think in terms of absolutes, right, 645 00:37:46,836 --> 00:37:49,716 Speaker 2: like I'm a defiant person or I'm a compliant person. 646 00:37:49,756 --> 00:37:51,876 Speaker 2: I think we get type cast a lot as kids, right, 647 00:37:52,036 --> 00:37:54,316 Speaker 2: or like we're one way or the other. But you're 648 00:37:54,436 --> 00:37:58,236 Speaker 2: very intentional to describe defiance as more of a muscle 649 00:37:58,436 --> 00:38:00,756 Speaker 2: or a skill that we can cultivate over time. 650 00:38:01,116 --> 00:38:06,356 Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely, So I always say that defiance is a practice, 651 00:38:06,436 --> 00:38:11,036 Speaker 1: not a personality. And this kind of early on, but 652 00:38:11,116 --> 00:38:14,356 Speaker 1: it didn't really register until later in my life. I 653 00:38:14,476 --> 00:38:16,836 Speaker 1: was walking home from the grocery store with my mom 654 00:38:16,876 --> 00:38:19,636 Speaker 1: and I was about seven or eight years old, and 655 00:38:20,516 --> 00:38:23,436 Speaker 1: we had our ricketye shopping cart that my mom was 656 00:38:23,516 --> 00:38:27,236 Speaker 1: sort of rolling behind us, and we were walking through 657 00:38:27,636 --> 00:38:31,716 Speaker 1: just a very narrow alleyway and we were confronted by 658 00:38:31,756 --> 00:38:34,796 Speaker 1: a group of teenage boys and they blocked our path 659 00:38:34,836 --> 00:38:37,716 Speaker 1: and they started shouting out some racist things and go 660 00:38:37,836 --> 00:38:41,956 Speaker 1: back home. And my mom, she's quite petite, she's about 661 00:38:41,956 --> 00:38:44,516 Speaker 1: four foot ten, at the most, and she was wearing 662 00:38:44,516 --> 00:38:46,756 Speaker 1: her blue sarre and she had her hair sort of 663 00:38:46,916 --> 00:38:51,076 Speaker 1: neatly back in one platte at the back, and I 664 00:38:51,236 --> 00:38:55,396 Speaker 1: had very neatly put her in the compliant box. And 665 00:38:56,156 --> 00:38:58,876 Speaker 1: I never thought for a moment that she could have 666 00:38:58,996 --> 00:39:01,996 Speaker 1: the ability to defy. But that day she did something 667 00:39:02,116 --> 00:39:06,276 Speaker 1: very different. When we got confronted by the boys, she 668 00:39:06,476 --> 00:39:09,796 Speaker 1: stopped and she looked at them and she said, what 669 00:39:09,876 --> 00:39:12,916 Speaker 1: do you mean? And it was just in a quiet 670 00:39:12,996 --> 00:39:16,756 Speaker 1: voice that she said this. At the start, I whispered 671 00:39:16,756 --> 00:39:20,036 Speaker 1: to her, come on, maa, and she shook my arm off, 672 00:39:20,076 --> 00:39:22,636 Speaker 1: and I remember that so well. She said no, and 673 00:39:22,676 --> 00:39:24,276 Speaker 1: she looked down at me for a second. Then she 674 00:39:24,356 --> 00:39:26,156 Speaker 1: put one hand on her hip and she looked back 675 00:39:26,156 --> 00:39:28,796 Speaker 1: at the boys and she said it again, this time 676 00:39:28,796 --> 00:39:31,756 Speaker 1: a little bit louder, what do you mean? And she 677 00:39:31,796 --> 00:39:35,636 Speaker 1: looked directly at them, and the boys were just silent, 678 00:39:36,316 --> 00:39:40,996 Speaker 1: and they started looking at each other, and so she said, oh, 679 00:39:41,156 --> 00:39:45,476 Speaker 1: you think you're big, strong boys, Yeah, clever boys, big 680 00:39:45,836 --> 00:39:50,756 Speaker 1: clever boys. And they just didn't know what to say. 681 00:39:50,916 --> 00:39:54,076 Speaker 2: I'm so proud of your mom. That's amazing, I know. 682 00:39:54,316 --> 00:39:56,796 Speaker 1: And then one of them just said, let's go and 683 00:39:56,876 --> 00:40:00,956 Speaker 1: they dispersed, and I just could not believe this happened. 684 00:40:00,996 --> 00:40:03,556 Speaker 1: My mom grabbed the cart and she started walking as 685 00:40:03,596 --> 00:40:07,476 Speaker 1: fast as possible. And that moment stayed with me because 686 00:40:07,476 --> 00:40:09,916 Speaker 1: it showed me so many things, And it showed me 687 00:40:09,996 --> 00:40:14,556 Speaker 1: that defiance isn't a personality, it's a skill set. If 688 00:40:14,596 --> 00:40:16,876 Speaker 1: we have a self concept of being compliant, it doesn't 689 00:40:16,916 --> 00:40:19,476 Speaker 1: mean that we can't be defiant. We just have to 690 00:40:19,556 --> 00:40:22,716 Speaker 1: learn it. So even if compliance is our default, it 691 00:40:22,756 --> 00:40:26,476 Speaker 1: doesn't have to be our destiny. The other thing it 692 00:40:26,516 --> 00:40:28,796 Speaker 1: showed me is that what I've found with the defiance 693 00:40:28,876 --> 00:40:31,836 Speaker 1: is that it really transforms us. We can become more ourselves, 694 00:40:31,916 --> 00:40:34,556 Speaker 1: we can act more in alignment with our values. But 695 00:40:34,636 --> 00:40:37,076 Speaker 1: it also has an effect on the people that observe it, 696 00:40:37,156 --> 00:40:40,756 Speaker 1: this ripple effect or what I call the defiance domino effect, 697 00:40:40,836 --> 00:40:44,036 Speaker 1: in that it only takes one person to start a reaction. 698 00:40:44,156 --> 00:40:48,156 Speaker 1: That makes a great difference. When I talk about society 699 00:40:48,276 --> 00:40:51,836 Speaker 1: being built up of these moments of compliance and defiance, 700 00:40:52,356 --> 00:40:56,316 Speaker 1: that is what is happening in that alleyway. Because ideally, 701 00:40:56,356 --> 00:40:59,716 Speaker 1: what I hope if I make defines successible to everyone, 702 00:41:00,916 --> 00:41:03,716 Speaker 1: that we build a society where one of those teens 703 00:41:03,876 --> 00:41:07,196 Speaker 1: would speak up to their peers, so my immigrant mother 704 00:41:07,236 --> 00:41:09,596 Speaker 1: wouldn't have to. That is what I hopeful. 705 00:41:31,556 --> 00:41:34,236 Speaker 2: Hey, thanks so much for listening. Do you have a 706 00:41:34,316 --> 00:41:38,276 Speaker 2: story of defiance, maybe a time when things went surprisingly 707 00:41:38,316 --> 00:41:42,236 Speaker 2: well or completely off the rails. I'd love to hear 708 00:41:42,276 --> 00:41:45,956 Speaker 2: about it. I've just launched a free newsletter called Change 709 00:41:45,956 --> 00:41:49,636 Speaker 2: with Maya Shunker, and this week's post is all about defiance. 710 00:41:50,076 --> 00:41:52,476 Speaker 2: I'd love to hear your stories in the comments under 711 00:41:52,516 --> 00:41:55,236 Speaker 2: the post. You can sign up for the newsletter at 712 00:41:55,356 --> 00:41:57,996 Speaker 2: changewthmaya dot com or click on the link in our 713 00:41:58,036 --> 00:42:00,836 Speaker 2: show notes and join me next week when we hear 714 00:42:00,876 --> 00:42:04,236 Speaker 2: from science writer Olga has On about her year long 715 00:42:04,316 --> 00:42:09,716 Speaker 2: experiment to change her personality. There were kind of along 716 00:42:09,756 --> 00:42:12,436 Speaker 2: the way that not only was I not thrilled with 717 00:42:12,476 --> 00:42:15,236 Speaker 2: my personality, other people were not thrilled with it either. 718 00:42:16,436 --> 00:42:22,316 Speaker 2: See you next week for Extreme Makeover Personality Edition. A 719 00:42:22,316 --> 00:42:25,836 Speaker 2: Slight Change of Plans is created, written and executive produced 720 00:42:25,836 --> 00:42:29,396 Speaker 2: by me Maya Shunker. The Slight Change family includes our 721 00:42:29,436 --> 00:42:34,076 Speaker 2: showrunner Tyler Green, our senior editor Kate Parkinson Morgan, our 722 00:42:34,116 --> 00:42:38,236 Speaker 2: producers Britney Cronin and Megan Lubn and our sound engineer 723 00:42:38,396 --> 00:42:42,436 Speaker 2: Erica Huang, Louis Scara wrote our delightful theme song, and 724 00:42:42,556 --> 00:42:46,236 Speaker 2: Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. A Slight Change of 725 00:42:46,236 --> 00:42:49,676 Speaker 2: Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries, so big thanks 726 00:42:49,716 --> 00:42:53,476 Speaker 2: to everyone there, and of course a very special thanks 727 00:42:53,516 --> 00:42:56,356 Speaker 2: to Jimmy Lee. You can follow A Slight Change of 728 00:42:56,396 --> 00:43:00,236 Speaker 2: Plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Shunker. See you next week. 729 00:43:10,676 --> 00:43:10,716 Speaker 3: The