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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Welcome to Stuff I Never

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Speaker 1: Told You, a production of I Heart Radio's How Stuff Work.

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Speaker 1: And yes it is just me today, listeners, because Samantha,

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Speaker 1: our lovely co host, Samantha was in an accident on

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Speaker 1: they here to record. She is fine, She's totally fine.

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Speaker 1: But it means that we are doing I am doing

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Speaker 1: another in show for a classic solo and I thought

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Speaker 1: we could bring back an episode that Kristen and Caroline

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Speaker 1: did on Shine Theory, because Shine theory came up in

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Speaker 1: our episode on women supporting women, and shine theory is

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Speaker 1: this idea that powerful women are your go too, is

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Speaker 1: they're the best type of friends to have. But that

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Speaker 1: kind of clashes with the other narrative that we frequently

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Speaker 1: here that powerful women are cutthroat or that there's all

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Speaker 1: this cattiness involved. So we thought that we would bring

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Speaker 1: this one back, get to the bottom of it, and

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Speaker 1: so I hope you enjoy Welcome to Stuff, Mom Never

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Speaker 1: Told You from how stup Works dot com. Hello, and

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Speaker 1: welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen and I'm Caroline, and

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Speaker 1: this week on the show, we're going to talk about friendship,

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Speaker 1: and today we're talking about something called the shine theory,

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Speaker 1: which has to do with women and success and friendship,

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Speaker 1: which is going to lead us into conversations about jealousy

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Speaker 1: and competition within female friendships in particular. Um, and the

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Speaker 1: thing is, Caroline on stuff, Mom never told you we

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Speaker 1: root for sisters doing it for themselves and succeeding all

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Speaker 1: the time. We're all out that we're all about uplift

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Speaker 1: and empowerment. But what happens when your friend becomes really successful,

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Speaker 1: or if you're someone who meets someone else who might

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Speaker 1: feel out of your league success wise? How do we

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Speaker 1: deal with those feelings of maybe unworthiness friendship wise, or

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Speaker 1: competition or envy that might naturally arise in these relationships. Well,

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Speaker 1: first of all, envy is, as we'll get into, totally natural,

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Speaker 1: totally normal, might even have its roots in some sort

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Speaker 1: of evolutionary psychology purpose. Um. So, you know when we

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Speaker 1: were all hunter gatherers on the planes and I was

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Speaker 1: envious of your spear, you know that would encourage me

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Speaker 1: to get a better spear myself. But it can sure

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Speaker 1: create kind of a sticky situation when it is in

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Speaker 1: your friend group. Yeah, and uh, there's even a song

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Speaker 1: about this, by the way, for Morrissey fans out there,

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Speaker 1: we hate it when our friends become successful. If you

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Speaker 1: want to just listen to that while we're talking about

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Speaker 1: this the per fickt Um. But first off, we thought

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Speaker 1: we should kick off with some wise words from a

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Speaker 1: couple of the most successful women out there, because they

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Speaker 1: have some pretty insightful things to say about how you

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Speaker 1: should treat successful women or successful people in general. So

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Speaker 1: Amy Poehler, godmother of Stuff, Mom never told you in spirit,

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Speaker 1: she doesn't know this, but she is um. She was

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Speaker 1: talking in her book, Yes please about success. I mean,

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Speaker 1: obviously she's best friends with the even more successful Tina Fey,

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Speaker 1: and she said, quote, rooting for other people's failure does

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Speaker 1: get in the way of your success. So it's that

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Speaker 1: whole warning against kind of watch out for your own schadenfreud. Yeah, exactly,

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Speaker 1: And I mean I think that's a great attitude. There's

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Speaker 1: there's sort of an ugliness and I don't mean physical ugliness,

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Speaker 1: I mean an internal ugliness obviously to rooting against someone,

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Speaker 1: especially if they are your friend. And Taylor Swift, who

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Speaker 1: we've talked about recently and who we did mention quite

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Speaker 1: a bit about her very high profile lady friendships. She

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Speaker 1: talked too about how she surrounds herself with smart, beautiful, passionate, driven,

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Speaker 1: ambitious women, and she says other women who were killing

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Speaker 1: it should motivate you, thrill you, challenge you, and inspire you,

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Speaker 1: rather than threaten you and make you feel like you're

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Speaker 1: immediately being compared to them. Now, some might hear that

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Speaker 1: and say, well, t Swizzle, it's so easy for you

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Speaker 1: to say that because you're so singularly successful. She's in

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Speaker 1: her own league, like no one can really compete with

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Speaker 1: her except maybe Katie Perry. But we're not going to

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Speaker 1: get into that. Um So what about in our more?

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Speaker 1: What about for for folks like you and me? Caroline, Well,

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Speaker 1: I think we can transition pretty well off of Taylor

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Speaker 1: Swift because Marcy bianco over at Mike was sort of

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Speaker 1: looking into Taylor's comments about not only friendship and lady friends,

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Speaker 1: but also feminism and saying that the message is quote

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Speaker 1: that gain power, we have to champion women who have

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Speaker 1: access to it, and this is sort of the basis

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Speaker 1: for what Ann Friedman calls the shine theory. Yeah, we've

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Speaker 1: sited in Freedman so many times on the podcast. She

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Speaker 1: is a freelance writer. You've probably seen her work in

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Speaker 1: York Magazine. She writes regularly elsewhere as well, and she

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Speaker 1: also hosts a podcast called Call Your Girlfriend with one

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Speaker 1: of her very successful lady friends. And she wrote this

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Speaker 1: piece in York Magazine in two thousand thirteen, I believe

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Speaker 1: about shine theory, and it went viral. I mean, it

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Speaker 1: might partially be because it was headlined why powerful women

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Speaker 1: make the best friends, um, but it it definitely started

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Speaker 1: a lot of conversations. And one thing that she says

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Speaker 1: in this piece is quote, when you meet a woman

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Speaker 1: who is intimidatingly witty, stylish, beautiful and professionally accomplished, befriend her.

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Speaker 1: In other words, you know what I had to do

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Speaker 1: with Caroline, you know. So surrounding yourself with the best

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Speaker 1: people doesn't make you look worse by comparison, It makes

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Speaker 1: you look better. And again, why am I sitting so

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Speaker 1: close to Caroline? Answer? She's shining upon me. This is

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Speaker 1: literally we're sitting in a long dining room table and

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Speaker 1: Kristen is literally sitting next to me. I don't understand

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Speaker 1: side by side, but honestly, it's cold in here, so

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Speaker 1: it's keeping me warm, right, and so she uses the

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Speaker 1: example of Kelly Rowland and Beyonce because you know, they

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Speaker 1: were all in the same group together along with Michelle

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Speaker 1: Let's not forget poor Michelle UM. But Beyonce, of course

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Speaker 1: blew up and became the social phenomenon, and Kelly Rowland

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Speaker 1: herself has an incredibly successful career. I mean, like, I'd

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Speaker 1: like to put out records and be a judge on

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Speaker 1: The X Factor if that's in fact the show that

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Speaker 1: she's on. UM. But basically, Kelly Rowland had to work

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Speaker 1: through her own envy issues with Beyonce and even wrote

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Speaker 1: a song about it, about seeing your friend blow up

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Speaker 1: and becomes so successful and having to deal with those

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Speaker 1: kind of feelings of being left behind. But yeah, so

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Speaker 1: Friedman talks about how Kelly Rowland great example because she's

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Speaker 1: positioning herself next to Beyonce and she's all the better

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Speaker 1: for it, not worse for it. And when she published

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Speaker 1: this song that was autobiographical about her jealousy of Beyonce

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Speaker 1: and coming to terms with that, Beyonce then listen to

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Speaker 1: it and then sent Kelly an email or maybe a

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Speaker 1: text message. I don't know how they communicate, and he's like, hey,

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Speaker 1: that was really amazing and honest and thank you for

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Speaker 1: being you, And I wish I could get a text

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Speaker 1: like that from Beyonce. Maybe it was a singing telegram,

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Speaker 1: but oh cool, alright, cool as if it happened. Um. So,

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Speaker 1: the basic idea is that the people we surround ourselves

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Speaker 1: with not not only reflect who we are, but they

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Speaker 1: should reflect who we want to be. And so by

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Speaker 1: befriending and bonding with powerful, awesome women, you're helping build

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Speaker 1: your own personal network, whether that's for your personal life

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Speaker 1: for your professional life, and that your friends should really

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Speaker 1: encourage you to be better, not drag you down. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and this does remind me of stuff my mom told

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Speaker 1: me when I was a kid, in terms of you

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Speaker 1: are the company that you keep, so be careful of

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Speaker 1: the friends that you make. And it seems like a

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Speaker 1: grown up version of that in a way, because it's

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Speaker 1: not only sort of holding yourself to a higher standard

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Speaker 1: by virtue of these powerful, successful people holding you more accountable,

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Speaker 1: but also allowing maybe outspoken friends in your life to

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Speaker 1: kind of call you out when you need to be

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Speaker 1: called out a little bit for maybe going on dates

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Speaker 1: with questionable people or maybe not being as ambitious as

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Speaker 1: as you possibly could be those kinds of things as well. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and she cites Joe Freeman's nineteen seventy six essay on

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Speaker 1: feminists not necessarily doing this, not necessarily being supportive of

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Speaker 1: one another. So it's not like minister some magical unicorn

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Speaker 1: group of women who are immune from some of the

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Speaker 1: less desirable personality traits when it comes to friendship. And

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Speaker 1: in that essay, Freeman's sights and Selma Delolo who said,

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Speaker 1: quote achieving our accomplishment of any kind, which seem to

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Speaker 1: be the worst crime, you're immediately labeled a thrill seeking opportunist,

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Speaker 1: a ruthless mercenary out to make her fame and fortune

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Speaker 1: over the dead bodies of selfless sisters who have buried

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Speaker 1: their abilities and sacrifice their ambitions for the greater glory

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Speaker 1: of feminism. Wow. And I mean and that rings true

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Speaker 1: today as well, not just within feminism but in our

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Speaker 1: friendships in general. And it doesn't help that and we'll

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Speaker 1: talk about this more in define later in the podcast,

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Speaker 1: that a lot of times of female friendships that have

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Speaker 1: been modeled for us in pop culture have always had

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Speaker 1: those undercurrents of competition. And I hate to use this

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Speaker 1: word but cattiness. Yeah, exactly, And I mean one important

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Speaker 1: feminist figure who's always argued for women supporting one another

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Speaker 1: is Gloria Steinhum and Kristen and I heard firsthand Gloria

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Speaker 1: Steinham talking about the importance of even if you disagree

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Speaker 1: with someone, supporting them in their efforts to do better. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And going back to Amy Poehler, she has a great

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Speaker 1: one liner about that, which is simply good for you,

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Speaker 1: not for me. And that's fine, and that's all it

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Speaker 1: has to be. Um. But the thing is, especially when

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Speaker 1: we're talking about this within the context of feminism, the

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Speaker 1: more we get distracted by fighting mongst ourselves and competing

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Speaker 1: and fuming with jealousy, it does give away ground to

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Speaker 1: the status quo and a patriarchy because it is a

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Speaker 1: distraction away from doing the work right exactly. Some people, though,

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Speaker 1: did not like this shine theory uh Slates. Hanna Rosen

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Speaker 1: was not a huge fan of this idea because she

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Speaker 1: saw it as too calculating. She basically called it forming

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Speaker 1: a strategic alliance and stead of forming an actual genuine friendship.

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Speaker 1: And she wonders whether, according to this theory, that you know,

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Speaker 1: if you've surrounded yourself purposely with all of these powerful,

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Speaker 1: really super ambitious women. If one of them loses a job,

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Speaker 1: goes through a hard time, you know, finds herself in

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Speaker 1: a funk for three weeks and doesn't get out of

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Speaker 1: her pajamas, do you have to kick her out of

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Speaker 1: your of your high powered social group all of a sudden,

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Speaker 1: or if or if she shows any type of jealousy

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Speaker 1: or weakness. Yeah. Funnily enough, she thinks that the advice

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Speaker 1: is quote old fashioned, a relic from the days when

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Speaker 1: women didn't see themselves as worthy competition for men, so

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Speaker 1: they fought one another for scraps, which is a pretty

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Speaker 1: damning assessment. Yeah. She suggests instead that if you're going

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Speaker 1: to try to have a strategy for your friendships, that

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Speaker 1: you should try compartmentalizing between your professional acquaintances and your

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Speaker 1: actual really close lady friends and then just recognize and

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Speaker 1: ride out the waves of envy as they come and go. So, basically,

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Speaker 1: you have these different friend groups for different purposes, one

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Speaker 1: of which is your true genuine group of friends. One

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Speaker 1: is the kind of friends that you have to help

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Speaker 1: you get ahead, um, and that you can use them

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Speaker 1: to sort of kind of let off steam about the

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Speaker 1: other group when you need to. While overall I by

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Speaker 1: the shine theory, but there is it seems like there

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Speaker 1: needs to be this distinction between what the shine theory is,

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Speaker 1: which seems like it's more along the lines of friendly

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Speaker 1: networking rather than cultivating best friendships. Right, Because the feeling

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Speaker 1: that I got having read that and then reading Rosen's

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Speaker 1: column about it, was that, Yeah, the shine theory is

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Speaker 1: great in that, yes, you should always encourage your lady friends,

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Speaker 1: and you should always strive to be the most genuine

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Speaker 1: supportive friend that you can and hope that you receive

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Speaker 1: that same treatment um in response. But yeah, I almost

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Speaker 1: feel like that might be a recipe for not so

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Speaker 1: genuine friendships and even the development of like a friend

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Speaker 1: of me relationship, which you and I have also talked about. Yeah. Well,

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Speaker 1: I was actually bene listening to call your girlfriend over

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Speaker 1: the weekend in Freedman's podcast and they mentioned the shine

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Speaker 1: theory and her co host said, oh, well, and you know,

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Speaker 1: I don't shine if you don't shine, And that kind

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Speaker 1: of hammered at home a little bit more to me

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Speaker 1: of like, Okay, that makes more sense than a day

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Speaker 1: to day with your friends of like you we want

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Speaker 1: to help each other be the best ladies that we

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Speaker 1: can be through our friendship. I get that, but yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's also the factor to where, especially if you're a

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Speaker 1: career oriented woman who spends a lot of time and

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Speaker 1: invest a lot of mental and emotional energy into her job,

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Speaker 1: I should just make this first person because I'm talking

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Speaker 1: about myself. I've found that that it's really important for

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Speaker 1: me to have friends where career is not a topic

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Speaker 1: that we even really go to, you know, like, I

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Speaker 1: feel like we need a break from it at some point.

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Speaker 1: It is nice to talk to people with other passions

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Speaker 1: and with their energy being directed in different areas instead

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Speaker 1: of just, you know, people exactly like yourself all the time. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I think you have to it goes both ways

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Speaker 1: to like to the point of what Hanter Rosen was

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Speaker 1: saying about, Well, what if you have a friend who

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Speaker 1: lost a job. What if you have a friend who's

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Speaker 1: not so successful, do you kick her out of the club? No?

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Speaker 1: And I think that it's you have to keep that

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Speaker 1: in mind too, when if you are the more successful friend,

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Speaker 1: how you treat and talk to your friends who are

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Speaker 1: maybe taking different paths than you are, and accepting that

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Speaker 1: as well. So it's a I mean, I like the

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Speaker 1: shine theory. I like the concept of the shine theory,

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Speaker 1: but as always, there's clearly more nuance to it than

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Speaker 1: just make friends with powerful women, right exactly. Um And

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Speaker 1: of course, if you are the more successful woman, then

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Speaker 1: chances are some people in your social group might be

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Speaker 1: envious of the things that you've a pomplished. Yeah. And

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Speaker 1: there has been a lot of research on jealousy and

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Speaker 1: envy in general. So first we want to share a

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Speaker 1: few facts about the purpose of jealousy why it exists,

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Speaker 1: because it seems like this, well, it is a negative emotion,

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Speaker 1: but it does have a purpose in the natural world.

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Speaker 1: And we're citing a paper by Sarah E. Hill and

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Speaker 1: David M. Bus called the Evolutionary Psychology of Envy. Right,

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Speaker 1: super interesting stuff that if you read it, and I

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Speaker 1: encourage you to do so, it makes you feel like

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Speaker 1: way less of a crazy person. Oh yeah, envy is

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Speaker 1: Envy is supernatural. It is I mean super natural to words,

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Speaker 1: not supernatural as in a deity. Um. Right, it is

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Speaker 1: innate and it likely played a role in like I

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Speaker 1: talked about earlier, getting the better spear, resource acquisition and

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Speaker 1: human survival because it motivates certain things like submission, ambition,

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Speaker 1: or destruction. Basically, you choose between like I'm super envious.

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Speaker 1: That means I'm getting ambition, I might acquire something better

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Speaker 1: or find a way to do it myself, or you

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Speaker 1: know something terrible, like ah, you've got the better spear,

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Speaker 1: so I'll destroy yours so that I feel better about myself.

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Speaker 1: But let's move away from spears and actually talk about

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Speaker 1: social groups, which is what we're here to actually talk about.

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Speaker 1: And envy has really been shown to lead to basically

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Speaker 1: talking smack about a person to your peer group because

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Speaker 1: that helps lower or it can help lower an opinion

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Speaker 1: of someone. So that's that's another like peer group focused

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Speaker 1: way of using envy as a destruction tool. But it's

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Speaker 1: a seek it of emotion because we know it's negative

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Speaker 1: and we don't want to admit that we're being outperformed

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Speaker 1: because what does that mean. Envy is like, Okay, you

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Speaker 1: have something that I really want, so I'm feeling envious

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Speaker 1: of you, and that might spark a whole slough of

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Speaker 1: negative emotions like hostility and insecurity and all this stuff.

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Speaker 1: But I don't want to tell this other person over

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Speaker 1: here Kristen has something that I want, because that just

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Speaker 1: makes me seem like, oh, well, I don't have enough

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Speaker 1: for I don't have what I need or should have exactly,

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Speaker 1: which is where shine theory would come in to say,

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Speaker 1: rather than giving into your insecurity, take advantage of it,

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Speaker 1: befriend make a you know, build the bridge between you

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Speaker 1: and that thing that you want. And shine theory jumped

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Speaker 1: out in this paper when they noted that quote. Researchers

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Speaker 1: have long noted that people reserve their feelings of enviousness

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Speaker 1: for those who are similar to themselves and for advantages

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Speaker 1: that are in self relevant domains. In other words, it's

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Speaker 1: understandable that we might have feelings of envy for the

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Speaker 1: women who are surrounding us, especially if they're in similar

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Speaker 1: kinds of careers or industries, because it tends to crop

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Speaker 1: up the most around the people who are the most

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Speaker 1: like us, because that would lead us to think, well,

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Speaker 1: you have everything that I had, but except for that

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Speaker 1: one thing. Why does your hair look amazing every single day?

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Speaker 1: That's right, Chris, I'm not talking about me. Yeah, And

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Speaker 1: that hair thing is not just a joke. I mean

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Speaker 1: it plays into an evolutionary psychology theory on women's envy

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Speaker 1: in particular, we tend to have greater envy and response

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Speaker 1: to our same sex peers being more attractive, whereas guys

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Speaker 1: are more envious of richer or guys with better resources.

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Speaker 1: And that you know, goes back to Okay, well what

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Speaker 1: do men and women want? Traditionally, and women are seeking

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Speaker 1: to be provided for and men are seeking a hot, fertile,

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Speaker 1: young mate. Basically, I know, yeah, that's there's always there's

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Speaker 1: always that factory and evolutionary psychology seems like. But I

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Speaker 1: did find it interesting that the researcher has mentioned that

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Speaker 1: envy should peak during our peak reproductive years. So because

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Speaker 1: it's all about ultimately, according to evolutionary psychology, it ultimately

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Speaker 1: as is everything about babies, Yeah, fighting for resources and

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Speaker 1: those resources are sperm. Yes, but there's There's also been

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Speaker 1: a lot of non evolutionary psychology research conducted on jealousy

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Speaker 1: and competition within female friendships, and it starts long before

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Speaker 1: our careers get off the ground. And one of the

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Speaker 1: most fascinating things to me about gender differences in friendships

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Speaker 1: that you see come up a lot in studies is

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Speaker 1: that girls tend to hold their girl friends, and I

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Speaker 1: mean girl, like young girl tend to hold their girlfriends

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Speaker 1: to hire standards. We think about friendships more often. We

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Speaker 1: expect more things like kindness, loyalty, and commitment from our friends.

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Speaker 1: We self disclose more to our girl friends. I mean

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Speaker 1: think about I mean just the excitement of telling or

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Speaker 1: hearing a secret from a friend when you were a girl.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that was that was so much of what

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Speaker 1: it was. And while that establishes this foundation for girl

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Speaker 1: friendships being so incredible, it also sets us up though,

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Speaker 1: for chelsea and disappointment and competition too, because we're so invested, right,

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Speaker 1: And then that leads us to what this study, which

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Speaker 1: is in the journal Developmental Psychology in two thousand five,

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Speaker 1: was saying about, how you know girls are there's so

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Speaker 1: much more of an intimacy level and female friendship than

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Speaker 1: in the friendships of young boys, to the point where

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Speaker 1: the interference of a third party tends to be a

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Speaker 1: significant source of tension between friends and the primary basis

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Speaker 1: for the breakup of friendships. Yeah, and researchers usually anticipate

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Speaker 1: jealousy interfering in girl friendships just because we have quote deeper,

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Speaker 1: more intimate friendships. And they also went on to say,

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Speaker 1: in this study quote, girls in general reported higher levels

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Speaker 1: of jealousy surrounding friends. So this is something that we're

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Speaker 1: dealing with in our formative years. Um. But interestingly too,

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Speaker 1: that gender difference might also be due to a gendered

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Speaker 1: stigma of jealousy being thought of as more of a

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Speaker 1: feminine emotion, probably because, like we were talking about with

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Speaker 1: the evolutionary psychology of envy, if you express envy or jealousy,

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Speaker 1: you're sort of tipping your hand a little bit right,

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Speaker 1: signaling weakness. So, for instance, if boys are feeling jealous

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Speaker 1: within the confines of these friendships, they have a tendency

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Speaker 1: to just say that they're upset versus they're jealous of something.

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Speaker 1: But Caroline, this is dealing with young her girls. What

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Speaker 1: then happens when puberty hits and sexiness walks in the room.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, I feel like everybody could probably guess

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Speaker 1: the answer to this. Uh, nothing good, nothing good, nothing

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Speaker 1: good happens. Um. I mean, it's so interesting. The studies

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Speaker 1: that we read that basically threw a sexy lady into

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Speaker 1: the mix of two female friends showed over and over

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Speaker 1: again that if a if a sexy lady walks in

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Speaker 1: the room and encounters two female friends. The minute she

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Speaker 1: walks back out, the two female friends are going to

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Speaker 1: be like, am I God, did you see her? I

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Speaker 1: bet she's just here to bang the professor. Whereas if

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Speaker 1: a woman with like her hair and a nod on

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Speaker 1: the top of her head, wearing a T shirt and pants,

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Speaker 1: you know, if I walk into the room, if I

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Speaker 1: walk into the room, they don't think anything of it

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Speaker 1: at all. Yeah, yeah, there's no we're not We're not

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Speaker 1: bringing sexy back. But this The fascinating thing, though, too,

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Speaker 1: was that only until recently, really recently, scientists didn't even

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Speaker 1: really understand the entire concept of female competition. It was

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Speaker 1: assumed to be more of a male thing, obviously relating

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Speaker 1: to uh, gendered patterns of aggression and violence and adding

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Speaker 1: a little more complexity to this as well. Uh. The

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Speaker 1: New York Times was reporting on how female competition used

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Speaker 1: to be sort of a giant question mark because past

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Speaker 1: evolutionary analysis thought that our ancient poligionist societies just eliminated

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Speaker 1: any compulsion for female mate competition because hey, the hottest

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Speaker 1: dudes just have multiple wives, no big deal. But more

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Speaker 1: recent analysis has opened up that scenario a little bit

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Speaker 1: for female competition because they now think, well, women probably

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Speaker 1: would have still competed for the best resourced sperm contributor.

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Speaker 1: So it's it's all very romantic, it's very egalitarian, it's

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Speaker 1: very progressive. Um, but not jokinging female competition is only

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Speaker 1: recently been studied, and it is once you throw that

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Speaker 1: sexiness into the equation that it does come out, unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: at least according to the limited researches out there in

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Speaker 1: the form of female to female So what shaming. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So researcher Sarah B. Hurdie has is researching female competition,

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Speaker 1: and she points out that it's only since the nineteen eighties,

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Speaker 1: which is really when more and more women started getting

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Speaker 1: into stem fields that people turn their attention to studying

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Speaker 1: women's competition and and uh, female on female competition and aggression. Um.

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Speaker 1: Of course, as we've talked about before, female on female

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Speaker 1: aggression does tend to be a little more passive aggressive,

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Speaker 1: a little less actually aggressive aggressive or especially physical. I mean,

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Speaker 1: we have to protect our delicate selves, right, Yeah, we're

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Speaker 1: less likelier to to punch each other. Yeah, don't punch

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Speaker 1: me in the baby maker, because we've got to be

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Speaker 1: making all those babies, all lot sperm I acquired with

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Speaker 1: my new spear, and not in the face, because how

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Speaker 1: will I find the best sperm contributor. Instead, I'm just

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Speaker 1: gonna say horrible things about you behind your back, right,

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Speaker 1: because that goes back to the whole envy discussion of

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Speaker 1: talking about someone behind her back to basically take her

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Speaker 1: down brick by brick, behind the scenes, instead of just

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Speaker 1: doing it to her face. Yeah, which is really no

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Speaker 1: less damaging, arguably even more damaging than punching someone in

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Speaker 1: the in the ute. And this is our way, according

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Speaker 1: to Dr Hurdie, that women limit access by maintaining advantage

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Speaker 1: in the negotiation of the resource, the resource being our

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Speaker 1: ability to find a decent person to procreate with um.

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Speaker 1: But moving on from that, Joyce Benison at Emmanuel College

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Speaker 1: has also studied female jealousy and competition, and she identified

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Speaker 1: to Psychology Today three unique characteristics of jealousy and women.

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Speaker 1: One ailed aggression rather than physical confrontation. We've already covered

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Speaker 1: that too high status women are less motivated to invest

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Speaker 1: in other women, and women who try to distinguish or

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Speaker 1: promote themselves threaten other women, and will encounter hostility and

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Speaker 1: enter shine theory needing to come into play, and the

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Speaker 1: three social exclusion to protect against potential competitors. So I

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Speaker 1: mean we we play dirty. Yeah, but I mean this

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Speaker 1: this supposedly like natural drive to be doing all of

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Speaker 1: this definitely follows us into our careers and jealousy reflecting

429
00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 1: gender dynamics in the workplace, because when you think about it,

430
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:46,560
Speaker 1: there are so few women as CEOs in the boardroom

431
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:51,439
Speaker 1: in high power positions. So hopefully we're not fighting for

432
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:54,720
Speaker 1: sperm in the office, but we're fighting for very limited

433
00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:59,160
Speaker 1: positions of power, and so that still will involve those

434
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:03,760
Speaker 1: more the more veiled aggression, maybe the feelings of envy

435
00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:07,080
Speaker 1: and trying to take someone down behind the scenes so

436
00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:09,240
Speaker 1: that you're still being perceived as like, oh, I'm a

437
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:12,200
Speaker 1: team player at work. Yeah, but I do think one

438
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:15,320
Speaker 1: of the most damaging ways if you are a woman

439
00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:20,119
Speaker 1: vying for that limited seat, I mean stepping on the

440
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:22,520
Speaker 1: backs of other women in order to get there is

441
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:26,480
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess if you're out for yourself, okay,

442
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:29,040
Speaker 1: but you're not helping other women in the process. And

443
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:30,320
Speaker 1: and the fact of the matter is there are some

444
00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 1: people for which they don't care. They don't care about

445
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:35,879
Speaker 1: that at all every woman on a reality show. I

446
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:38,680
Speaker 1: love those montages on YouTube of of women going I'm

447
00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:41,800
Speaker 1: not here to make friends. Yeah, because I mean there

448
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:46,160
Speaker 1: is I think still this assumption that women are going

449
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:48,879
Speaker 1: to naturally be competitive with each other and be jealous

450
00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:51,560
Speaker 1: of each other, and shine theory does tip it on

451
00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:53,159
Speaker 1: its head a bit of saying, hey, you know, we

452
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:55,199
Speaker 1: can be successful, we can also be friendly, and we

453
00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:59,560
Speaker 1: can also maybe buck these perceptions that women in positions

454
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:04,840
Speaker 1: of lead ship and power are aggressive and angry and unfriendly. Yeah,

455
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:07,520
Speaker 1: because that doesn't help at all either now, and neither

456
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:10,479
Speaker 1: does the loneliness that comes when you're looking at social

457
00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:13,960
Speaker 1: media for hours on end and some woman on social

458
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:17,880
Speaker 1: media's posting pictures of her trip to Bali. I'm not

459
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:21,320
Speaker 1: speaking from person or just a dinner parties you weren't

460
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 1: invited to, not speaking from personal experience eide of the Caroline. Yeah,

461
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:28,000
Speaker 1: social media, I mean we're gonna we're going to mention

462
00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:31,760
Speaker 1: social media because women spend a lot of time on

463
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:36,440
Speaker 1: social media. And as probably every every listener has seen

464
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:38,680
Speaker 1: a trend piece on this, there have been so many

465
00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:44,240
Speaker 1: studies now linking Facebook and Instagram in particular to feelings

466
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 1: of loneliness, lower self worth, and jealousy because we're seeing

467
00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:51,280
Speaker 1: we're seeing things that we don't have. I mean, yes,

468
00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:56,640
Speaker 1: these are images that are curated and filtered and cleverly captioned.

469
00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:59,560
Speaker 1: We hope to, you know, make your life look as

470
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:01,840
Speaker 1: great as possible. But still, but it's weird. It's almost

471
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:05,080
Speaker 1: like it's almost like the way that fake sugar like

472
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:08,040
Speaker 1: will never satisfy your brain because your brain wants real sugar,

473
00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:10,240
Speaker 1: and so it keeps searching. It's it's almost like you're

474
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:13,680
Speaker 1: you're in a fake competition with other women on social

475
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:15,960
Speaker 1: media when you look at their amazing pictures of their

476
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:19,720
Speaker 1: trip or their dinner or their vacation or husband or

477
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:26,240
Speaker 1: whoever whatever. Because so envy is supposed to spark ambition, right,

478
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:28,400
Speaker 1: you see something you want and you're like, I've got

479
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:30,320
Speaker 1: to figure out a way to get that for myself

480
00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:33,640
Speaker 1: and do do well for myself. But the image that

481
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:37,720
Speaker 1: people present of themselves on social media, it's not anywhere

482
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 1: close to being reel. Yeah, you might post pictures of

483
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:43,120
Speaker 1: an amazing trip you took, but that doesn't cover up

484
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:44,760
Speaker 1: like maybe you had a bad day, maybe you're not

485
00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 1: feeling good about yourself, maybe you yourself or insecure, and

486
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:50,760
Speaker 1: so it's almost like people are envious of something that

487
00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:53,320
Speaker 1: they don't fully grasp and so that like breeds this

488
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:57,680
Speaker 1: whole feeling of insecurity and instability and envy when really

489
00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:00,440
Speaker 1: you should just be congratulating on your friend on a

490
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:02,960
Speaker 1: good trip and saying, hey, how you doing. Yeah? I mean.

491
00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:05,719
Speaker 1: And when it comes to that realness factor on social

492
00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:08,480
Speaker 1: media and our curated images, I would like to highlight

493
00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:12,200
Speaker 1: that my Twitter avatar that is fake blood on my face,

494
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:15,960
Speaker 1: not real ladies. You don't need to be envious. Um.

495
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:19,680
Speaker 1: And also I think that you just came up with

496
00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 1: something that we should call the splendid theory. So yeah, hello,

497
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:30,320
Speaker 1: shine theory, me splendid theory, and together, what would that

498
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:36,440
Speaker 1: make fool's gold? But before we close out this conversation,

499
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:39,600
Speaker 1: we did want to take a look at television because

500
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:44,400
Speaker 1: we mentioned earlier about how media representations of female friendships,

501
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:49,080
Speaker 1: particularly in movies and television, often, you know, follow the

502
00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:51,320
Speaker 1: assumption that we all secretly hate each other and they're

503
00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:55,000
Speaker 1: all fre enemies. And there is still a lot of

504
00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:58,960
Speaker 1: that on TV. Just look at the Real Housewives franchise

505
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:03,600
Speaker 1: and the Batch aller but I think in some ways

506
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:07,560
Speaker 1: it has gotten better. We do have some examples of uh,

507
00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:10,480
Speaker 1: female friendships on TV. And I'm only focusing on TV

508
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:12,840
Speaker 1: just because there's not even time to get into film,

509
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:16,000
Speaker 1: but there are examples of friendships where shine theory is

510
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:17,880
Speaker 1: at work, not just in a sense of a career,

511
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:20,800
Speaker 1: but supporting people through life decisions too. And I think

512
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:25,280
Speaker 1: that that's something especially for me as an adult woman

513
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:28,280
Speaker 1: with my friends who have now had for years and

514
00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:31,880
Speaker 1: years and years too. It's it's not just the career

515
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:35,760
Speaker 1: success that can stoke envy, but it's also the life success.

516
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:38,480
Speaker 1: We're all starting to hit the milestones you're starting to get,

517
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:43,320
Speaker 1: like engagements and marriages and pregnancies and divorce and that,

518
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:46,080
Speaker 1: and that plays a role in things as well. Yeah,

519
00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 1: it is refreshing to see depictions of female friendship that

520
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:52,680
Speaker 1: seemed very genuine. I mean, take a show like Girls,

521
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:54,920
Speaker 1: which wait, don't turn off the podcast. I know not

522
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:57,920
Speaker 1: everybody is a fan, but when you have a show

523
00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:01,440
Speaker 1: like Girls, I feel like that's still depict doing genuine

524
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:04,560
Speaker 1: female friendships and all of the messiness that can come

525
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:07,360
Speaker 1: along with it. These women are being pitted against each other.

526
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:10,560
Speaker 1: There's not cattiness per se, but there's genuine love and

527
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:14,680
Speaker 1: support just on the same token as there is insecurity

528
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:18,400
Speaker 1: and sort of measuring up against one another. Yeah, and

529
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:23,560
Speaker 1: Broad City. Hello. Is there a more dedicated duo of

530
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:27,600
Speaker 1: female friends on prime Time? I don't think so, because

531
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:31,880
Speaker 1: I think that Alanna would would murder for Abby and

532
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:33,960
Speaker 1: she would also marry her if she could, if Abby

533
00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:37,120
Speaker 1: would have her um and then even to a Sex

534
00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:41,000
Speaker 1: in the City. You know, those friendships showed time and

535
00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:45,600
Speaker 1: again lots of support through milestones and successes and even

536
00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:49,480
Speaker 1: through failures too, And I feel like in that way,

537
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:53,760
Speaker 1: Sex in the City was a healthy model Parks and recreation,

538
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:57,920
Speaker 1: Leslie Nopes, undying love of Anne right. And I think

539
00:32:57,920 --> 00:32:59,800
Speaker 1: one of my favorites, even though I hate this show

540
00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:03,800
Speaker 1: now out is Grey's Anatomy, the friendship between Meredith and Christina,

541
00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:07,640
Speaker 1: because I remember so clearly the episode where Christina said

542
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:09,880
Speaker 1: that Meredith was her person, because I was like, oh,

543
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:14,560
Speaker 1: there it is. That's my friendship reflected in these two

544
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:18,160
Speaker 1: fictional characters. Because I feel that way about a couple

545
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:21,880
Speaker 1: of ladies too, and it's like they're they're my my people,

546
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:24,840
Speaker 1: my tribe, my my people who will tell me when

547
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:28,120
Speaker 1: I'm full of crap, but who will also support me unconditionally.

548
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:32,120
Speaker 1: And an older sitcom as well that depicts strong female

549
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:36,640
Speaker 1: friendships through life events is Girl Friends. As well as

550
00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:40,400
Speaker 1: Awkward Black Girl. You have the Gilmore Girls. Arguably, I

551
00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:42,000
Speaker 1: feel like that's a little bit of a stretch. And

552
00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:44,920
Speaker 1: also Buffy the Vampire Slayer. We've got some strong female

553
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:47,960
Speaker 1: friendships in there as well, So there's some good modeling

554
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:51,800
Speaker 1: going on. And I do think though that for the

555
00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:53,760
Speaker 1: TV shows we just mentioned that are on the air

556
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 1: right now, it's interesting that most of them are created

557
00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:04,920
Speaker 1: by women. Yeah. I mean that's the importance of representation.

558
00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:07,080
Speaker 1: When people talk about why is it important to get

559
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:10,800
Speaker 1: women in X Y Z Field, this is a great example.

560
00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:14,879
Speaker 1: You get more women's perspectives in the TV writer's room,

561
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:19,719
Speaker 1: and then you get more realistic depictions of actual women. Yeah,

562
00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:22,839
Speaker 1: And I think that those depictions are important. I think

563
00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:27,000
Speaker 1: it is important, especially for girls to see I mean,

564
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:30,760
Speaker 1: not that girls are sitting down and watching Gray's Anatomy.

565
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:33,680
Speaker 1: To girls watch Gray's Anatomy, I don't know. I don't know,

566
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:37,240
Speaker 1: but I think just generally it's so important for younger

567
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:41,319
Speaker 1: girls to see healthy models of female friendship because from

568
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:44,000
Speaker 1: the get go, least according to studies and according to

569
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:47,800
Speaker 1: my experience when I was a girl, we invest so

570
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:50,799
Speaker 1: much in our friends, and our friends means so much

571
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:53,359
Speaker 1: to us, and when they break our hearts, it's like

572
00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 1: no other heartbreak. And I feel like this follows us

573
00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:01,840
Speaker 1: in morphson evolves as we get older. And I really

574
00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:06,280
Speaker 1: love most of all Amy Poehler's advice of just don't

575
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:09,960
Speaker 1: root for other people's failure. You know something's not for you,

576
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:13,640
Speaker 1: that's fine, good for her, not for me exactly. So

577
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:16,959
Speaker 1: let's hear from some listeners. What do you think about

578
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:22,839
Speaker 1: the shine theory? How how has success and competition influenced

579
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:27,120
Speaker 1: your closer friendships? And do you think that you should

580
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:30,839
Speaker 1: make friends with powerful people or is that just kind

581
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:33,160
Speaker 1: of networking? And guys, we want to hear from you two.

582
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:36,880
Speaker 1: I know this was a lady focused conversation, but we

583
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:39,560
Speaker 1: always want to hear your thoughts as well. Mom Stuff

584
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:41,480
Speaker 1: at how stuff works dot Com is our email address.

585
00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:44,400
Speaker 1: You can also tweet us and mom stuff podcast and

586
00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:47,080
Speaker 1: messages on Facebook, and we've got a couple of messages

587
00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:58,000
Speaker 1: this year with you. Right now, Well, I have a

588
00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:03,120
Speaker 1: letter here from Samantha about depends episode. She says, I'm

589
00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:05,759
Speaker 1: a costume designer out in Seattle, and when it comes

590
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:09,400
Speaker 1: to historical plays, the right undergarments are essential. While I

591
00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:12,000
Speaker 1: was interesting to hear about the political and social feelings

592
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:14,880
Speaker 1: on underwear, I was saddened that you barely touched on

593
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:18,160
Speaker 1: the function of these garments. If it weren't for coursets,

594
00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:21,520
Speaker 1: many Victorian and Edwardian dresses would look awful since the

595
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:24,279
Speaker 1: dresses themselves were never made of fabric that could hold

596
00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:27,560
Speaker 1: structure or form. You mentioned that once World War Two

597
00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:32,120
Speaker 1: was over, we go back to constraining undergarments like bullet braws, girdles,

598
00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:36,000
Speaker 1: and petticoats, but the shape and design of those dresses

599
00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:39,080
Speaker 1: wouldn't be fully realized because without those bases, it would

600
00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:42,359
Speaker 1: look like a totally different dress. Even now, we used

601
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:44,480
Speaker 1: banks to get the garments we wear to look like

602
00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:48,120
Speaker 1: they are intended to look. I love the podcast and

603
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:52,359
Speaker 1: thanks for helping me become a better informed feminist. Keep

604
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:54,640
Speaker 1: up the good work well. Thank you, Samantha. Thank you

605
00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:58,000
Speaker 1: for filling us in on some historical details. And Samantha

606
00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:01,160
Speaker 1: and some Mother listeners have also filled us in on

607
00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:08,480
Speaker 1: mispronunciation of the word shamis, which I woefully misled Caroline

608
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:14,600
Speaker 1: into thinking it was pronounced camis. So my since serious apologies.

609
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:17,320
Speaker 1: I don't know why that was thought was Camise always

610
00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:18,560
Speaker 1: said it that way in my head. It was just

611
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:21,600
Speaker 1: like that serious c Anderson comic. Well, I now have

612
00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:26,239
Speaker 1: a letter from Sarah about our Glitteracy podcast and Columbo,

613
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:29,960
Speaker 1: and it made me laugh. So here it is. She said,

614
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:32,000
Speaker 1: love your podcast. I listened to it all the time

615
00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:33,960
Speaker 1: at work. Thank you for all your hard work. I

616
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:36,759
Speaker 1: was just listening to the Cliteracy podcast, and I know

617
00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:40,560
Speaker 1: you were thinking that Columbo discovering the Clitterest reminded you

618
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:45,160
Speaker 1: of Columbus, but I humorously started thinking of Detective Columbo

619
00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:48,399
Speaker 1: played by Peter Falk in the nineteen six eight TV

620
00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:51,400
Speaker 1: show Columbo, which side note, I totally watched that all

621
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:55,280
Speaker 1: the time with my parents. I kept inwardly laughing every

622
00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:57,880
Speaker 1: time I thought of his catchphrase, it's just one thing

623
00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:03,080
Speaker 1: I don't understand, and applying it to the glitter is nothing.

624
00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:06,000
Speaker 1: He usually groundbreaking To actually tell you about the episode

625
00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:08,200
Speaker 1: other than that I enjoyed it and the thought of

626
00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:11,719
Speaker 1: Columbo the detective was super funny to me. I hope

627
00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:14,960
Speaker 1: it made you laugh too, and it did, Sarah, so

628
00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:17,680
Speaker 1: thank you and thanks everybody else who's written into us.

629
00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:20,000
Speaker 1: Moms Stuff at how stuff Works dot com is our

630
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:22,040
Speaker 1: email address and for links to all of our social

631
00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:25,560
Speaker 1: media as well as all of our blogs, videos, and podcasts,

632
00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:29,040
Speaker 1: including this one with links to and Freedman's Peace About

633
00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:32,359
Speaker 1: Shine theory so you can read along. Head on over

634
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:37,640
Speaker 1: to stuff Mom Never Told You dot com and that

635
00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:40,360
Speaker 1: brings us to the end of this classic episode. We

636
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:41,920
Speaker 1: would love to hear from you if you'd like to

637
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:44,680
Speaker 1: email as you can, You can emails at stuff Media,

638
00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:47,359
Speaker 1: mom Stuff at iHeart media dot com. You can also

639
00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:49,880
Speaker 1: find us on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast or on

640
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:52,480
Speaker 1: Instagram at stuff on Ever Told You. Thanks as always

641
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:55,279
Speaker 1: to our super producer Andrew Howard, and thanks to you

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Speaker 1: for listening Stuff I've Never Told You his protection of

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Speaker 1: I Heart Radios how stuff Works. For more podcast as

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Speaker 1: from my Heart Radio, visit I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast,

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Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. H