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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show.

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Speaker 3: My name is Matt, my name is Nolan. They call

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Speaker 3: me Bed. We're joined as always with our super producer

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Speaker 3: Paul mission controlled decads. Most importantly, you are here and

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Speaker 3: that makes this the stuff they don't want you to know.

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Speaker 3: We are recording this at the beginning of December twenty

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Speaker 3: twenty three. Quick check in, guys, how we feel it

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Speaker 3: here at the edge.

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Speaker 4: Of the new year, the edge of the universe? Pretty good,

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Speaker 4: I think, you know, all in all things considered.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, OK, not great, but we'll get through it.

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Speaker 3: I'm just being optimistic. You know. It's certainly room for improvement.

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Speaker 3: I know this would be where the Internet says, insert

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Speaker 3: gift of someone vaguely gesturing at everything. We have a

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Speaker 3: bit of a December ish episode tonight, folks, Castro Memories back.

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Speaker 3: It's December fifteenth, nineteen forty four. The legendary band leader

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Speaker 3: Glenn Miller is flying from London to Paris. Glenn is excited.

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Speaker 3: He's bringing his band to the European front. Glenn is also,

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Speaker 3: to be honest, massively irritated because it turns out he's

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Speaker 3: been trying to catch this flight to France for several

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Speaker 3: days and then somewhere over the English Channel his plane disappears.

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Speaker 3: Almost eighty years later to the day, people are still

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Speaker 3: asking what happened to Glenn Miller? Here are the facts.

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Speaker 3: You guys know Glenn. You're musicians, right, Seriously, it's so weird.

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Speaker 2: In preparation for this episode, I didn't, I am if

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Speaker 2: I would have. If you would have told me, hey, Matt,

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Speaker 2: who's Glenn Miller, I would have got halo. But if

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Speaker 2: you if you realize who he is, I guess in

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Speaker 2: researching him, you're like, dang, this guy had a lot

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Speaker 2: of influence on a lot of people, and I think

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Speaker 2: music in general. Guys, can we just talk quickly about

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Speaker 2: the thing that made his orchestra's sound unique the fingerprint?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? The horns?

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Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, it's the horn. Because he was he was

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Speaker 2: a famous trombonist. I'm sure he was a multi instrument instrumentalist.

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Speaker 2: I guess as a way you'd say that, but he

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Speaker 2: was known for his trombone work. And when he would

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Speaker 2: compose music, he would use the horns section, so like

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Speaker 2: we're talking trumpets and trombones, other horns with saxophones and

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Speaker 2: what was it. He would play like the same melody

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Speaker 2: with both instruments at different octaves to give it a

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Speaker 2: very I don't know, just cool.

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Speaker 3: Love the clarinet to that guy.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. He was born in nineteen oh four in Iowa,

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Speaker 3: March first, and for a while he studied at the

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Speaker 3: University of Colorado. He did take a music course. He

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Speaker 3: got an incomplete, by the way, and he dropped out

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Speaker 3: to work full time as a musician. As you said, Matt,

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Speaker 3: his primary instrument was the trombone. He was a tromboner,

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Speaker 3: a trombonist, no pun left behind.

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Speaker 2: Before you go, I think it's so funny you're talking

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Speaker 2: about the University of Colorado. When you go to their website,

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Speaker 2: they've got a huge page about him. And he literally

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Speaker 2: like showed up and was like I'll take this.

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Speaker 3: Nah right. He also made a name for himself as

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Speaker 3: an arranger, a composer, later a band leader, and as

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Speaker 3: we all know, the life of a musician can be

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Speaker 3: immensely challenging. So this guy goes from gig to gig,

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Speaker 3: from band to band, before he gets hired on to

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Speaker 3: play trombone for Ben Pollocks Orchestra in the mid nineteen twenties,

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Speaker 3: and then after that Fleetwood Max style, he goes his

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Speaker 3: own way. He's back to freelancing, and at some point,

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Speaker 3: I believe in the late thirties, he says, well, when

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Speaker 3: I start a band.

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Speaker 2: YEP, And that lasted for about a year. He was like, yeah, man,

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Speaker 2: I've got a band, and people loved it, or at

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Speaker 2: least people who were influential and important within the music

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Speaker 2: industries maybe at the time, but yeah, it lasted about

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Speaker 2: a year, and almost immediately he started up with another

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Speaker 2: group of people.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. This first one, as you said, was sort of

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Speaker 3: a critics darling, not a lot of mainstream notice, but

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Speaker 3: people who heard it loved it. They loved what he

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Speaker 3: was doing. And his second group really hit the zeitgeist.

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Speaker 3: People loved this stuff. They played ballrooms, they played casinos.

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Speaker 3: I've never seen a live band at a casino. What

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Speaker 3: maybe that's a little bit of a dated thing. Like

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Speaker 3: now it's more like stage you know, floor shows or

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Speaker 3: you know, like magic or just to lay that kind

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Speaker 3: of stuff. But back in the day.

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Speaker 4: Day, yeah, I mean, back in the day it was

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Speaker 4: like I mean, we know, I think from our trip

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Speaker 4: to Vegas and learning a lot of the history is

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Speaker 4: that a lot of the the rules around who could

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Speaker 4: and could not go into casinos pertaining to race had

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Speaker 4: direct directly to do with some of these really hot,

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Speaker 4: high level performers who were starting to not all be

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Speaker 4: you know, white. I think Sammy Davis Junior led to

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Speaker 4: a lot of changes or even the formation of a

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Speaker 4: very specific casino that did allow black folks to patronize

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Speaker 4: it and not just have to be you know, swooped

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Speaker 4: in the back door.

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Speaker 2: Well yeah, and this is my problem as well, with

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Speaker 2: just the cultural difference of the nineteen thirties to now

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Speaker 2: and everything that I've ever known growing up, they're the

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Speaker 2: dance club or a place where you would go out

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Speaker 2: to dance with somebody or to meet somebody and dance.

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Speaker 2: It's very different than the way we think about it now.

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Speaker 2: And probably since we were you know, we've been born.

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Speaker 4: I mean officially, these bands were often referred to as

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Speaker 4: dance bands.

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Speaker 3: You know, that was sort of the term of popular use.

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Speaker 3: And this guy is in the thick of it. He

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Speaker 3: is a pop star by this point, picture your favorite

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Speaker 3: most successful pop star. He is in that sort of

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Speaker 3: echelon at this moment in his life. They're all over

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Speaker 3: the radio and their sound is, as we said, it's

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Speaker 3: considered unique. Everybody loves it. They can't get enough. By

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Speaker 3: nineteen thirty nine, Glenn is hosting his own radio show

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Speaker 3: three times a week. They had all these hits. We

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Speaker 3: were talking about it a little bit off air. I

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Speaker 3: love Perfidia. Matt, you're a in the mood guy. You

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Speaker 3: were talking about that one.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god, I don't know what it is about

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Speaker 2: that song, man, it puts me in the mood.

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Speaker 3: Is that I may be wrong.

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Speaker 4: I think that's that one tuxedo junction, right, Ye, Sunday

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Speaker 4: has Serenade and not to remember, there's also Moonlight Serenade.

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Speaker 4: You got your Son Serenade and your Moonlight Serenade.

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Speaker 2: But there's something about I don't know. It's that it's

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Speaker 2: the ride symbol and the drummer's not doing much at all,

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Speaker 2: but like just keeps it going and it just flows

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Speaker 2: and again usually with the horn section.

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Speaker 3: It's just Oh.

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Speaker 4: That band that there is just a very they're they're

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Speaker 4: they're kind of like tie disco vibes almost, but like

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Speaker 4: it is just a very steady kind of drum uh performance.

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Speaker 4: But then you'll have the big old blasty drum solo occasionally. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: it's neat to watching these cats play because they'll have

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Speaker 4: the snare tilted at a weird angle and they'll be

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Speaker 4: playing side stick kind of with that ride. Unless even

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Speaker 4: the kick drum, it's not a kicky kind of sound.

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Speaker 4: It's a very The ride is everything, and everything comes

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Speaker 4: with the bass upright bass, so they're not doing a

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Speaker 4: big banging kick. That's not the sound of this type

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Speaker 4: of music at all.

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Speaker 3: Is beautiful, very cool. It is beautiful. If you have

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Speaker 3: not had the pleasure of listening to the Glenn Miller

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Speaker 3: version of Perfidia, do check it out. It's astonishing. So anyway,

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Speaker 3: what we're saying is, yeah, the dogs get it, let's

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Speaker 3: leave it in. These are all bangers, and in a

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Speaker 3: very real way, this guy's work begins to define the

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Speaker 3: era of what we call swing music. He's at the

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Speaker 3: top of his game. He's thirty eight years old, and

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Speaker 3: the Western world is shocked when he suddenly disbands his orchestra,

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Speaker 3: which was very successful, and he enlists in the US

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Speaker 3: Army to help with World War Two. We have a

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Speaker 3: little bit of his correspondence with Uncle Sam right.

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Speaker 4: On August twelfth, nineteen forty two, he wrote this letter

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Speaker 4: arguing that he could in his band could possibly be

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Speaker 4: a morale booster for you know, the Boys in Blue,

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Speaker 4: that's the cops, what do you call it?

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Speaker 3: Anyway, it was exclusively boys at this time for the

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Speaker 3: trump the choices of Red White vis go.

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Speaker 4: And this is largely the foundation of what led to

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Speaker 4: things like the USO, which is you know, comedians, musicians,

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Speaker 4: influencers that come and you know, give special performances, you know,

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Speaker 4: for the troops. But Glenn kind of took this upon

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Speaker 4: himself and it was sort of like his idea. He

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Speaker 4: wanted to quote, put a little more spring into the

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Speaker 4: feet of our marching men and a little more joy

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Speaker 4: into their hearts.

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Speaker 3: Like the end of Ghostbusters too, just a little love

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Speaker 3: in your heart.

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Speaker 2: Well it is, oh, and it's quite I think it's

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Speaker 2: quite inspiring actually, because this solidifies him not only as

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Speaker 2: a pop star right and an important figure in that way,

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Speaker 2: he becomes kind of an American hero just for deciding

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Speaker 2: to do this and making it happen.

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Speaker 3: M M, yeah, one hundred percent. And so from October

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Speaker 3: of that year all the way to December of nineteen

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Speaker 3: forty four, he is he's got he gets the rank

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Speaker 3: of a captain. He's leading an outfit called the Army

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Speaker 3: Air Force Band. This is huge. Forty two people in

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Speaker 3: this orchestra, a nineteen piece swing band at its core,

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Speaker 3: so they've got the classics and then got the you know,

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Speaker 3: the stuff he cut a rug to. There were no

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Speaker 3: chumps in the squad. Had this band continued with Glenn,

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Speaker 3: we have no idea how many more contributions he would

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Speaker 3: have made to the musical canon of America and indeed

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Speaker 3: the world overall. Why don't we know what would have happened? Well,

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Speaker 3: because his flight never arrived in Paris. Shades of missing

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Speaker 3: in Alaska. Shout out to our pal John Waalzac. Shout

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Speaker 3: out to Paul Decktt, who also works on that show.

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Speaker 3: To date, in twenty twenty three, no trace of this

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Speaker 3: plane has been discovered or at least officially confirmed. So

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Speaker 3: we have to ask ourselves what happened to Glenn? How

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Speaker 3: did one of the world's most popular musicians simply disappear?

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Speaker 3: Here's where it gets crazy. Let's keep going. I mean,

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Speaker 3: think about it. Taylor Swift, very popular musician. What if

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Speaker 3: Taylor Swift one day hopped a flight to the Middle

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Speaker 3: East and just vanished.

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Speaker 4: People would commit suicide on mass that is would happened. Well,

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Speaker 4: the Swifties would find her, They would find her, there

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Speaker 4: would be a million amateur detectives spawned overnight, or.

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Speaker 3: They would at least find a scapegoat.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it's weird because in this case, because of

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Speaker 2: the time period, right, because the world was at war

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Speaker 2: when this occurred. Because planes are getting shot down all

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Speaker 2: over the place, right and in different at the edges

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Speaker 2: of battlefields, you know, across Europe. It is very weird

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Speaker 2: that it occurs, right, with this very popular person on

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Speaker 2: a flight that is military related, but it's not. It's

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Speaker 2: not like a military mission in the same way, right

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Speaker 2: mm hmm.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you could call it a casual flight, which several

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Speaker 3: researchers have. Let's stick with the facts one moment longer

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Speaker 3: before we get into the theories. Let's look at the

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Speaker 3: provable stuff. With help from the author Dennis Spragg in

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Speaker 3: his book Glenn Miller Declassified, which is considered by far

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Speaker 3: the most exhaustive investigation. He notes a couple of weird things.

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Speaker 3: Miller's flight, the one he actually made it on, was

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Speaker 3: booked on short notice. He had already tried to get

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Speaker 3: like it was booked the night before, because he had

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Speaker 3: already tried and failed to get on several other flights.

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Speaker 3: And he basically took a really small airplane with help

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Speaker 3: from a military buddy, an acquaintance that we'll get to

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Speaker 3: and it's there were only three people aboard, and he

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Speaker 3: was just done waiting. He was so pissed that he

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Speaker 3: had to be beyond standby and his first light got canceled,

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Speaker 3: and then he had another one that got canceled. I'm

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Speaker 3: Glenn m fing Miller.

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Speaker 2: Let's talk about why. So his band was going to

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Speaker 2: have to be in Paris, right and they were going

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Speaker 2: to perform there? What on Christmas?

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Speaker 3: State?

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Speaker 2: Yes, And what Glenn had to do as the leader

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Speaker 2: of the brain behind that stuff was all the things

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Speaker 2: that like an executive producer would have to do, right,

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Speaker 2: You've got to figure out how do I actually get

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Speaker 2: where are all of my people going to stay? What

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Speaker 2: food are they going to be eating? You know, like

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Speaker 2: all of the logistics. I guess that was on him

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Speaker 2: to figure all of that out, which is why he

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Speaker 2: wanted to be there before the rest of the band,

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Speaker 2: at least according to a lot of the writing, right,

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Speaker 2: that's that's been put into the record, which is why

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Speaker 2: he felt a real need get whatever I have to do.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to get there early.

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Speaker 3: Consummate professional. He only got a seat on this tiny plane.

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Speaker 3: Is it's a nord Dune you see sixty four a Norseman.

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Speaker 3: You can see a picture of this and it looks

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Speaker 3: almost like a biplane, you know.

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Speaker 2: Yes, but it's a unique cool aircraft. Don't you think?

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Speaker 3: Oh? Unique cool? Would you say easily identifiable? I might.

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Speaker 2: So.

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Speaker 3: Miller, being a military man himself at this point, he

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Speaker 3: has a little bit of juice with the eighth Air Force.

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Speaker 3: He has an acquaintance, Lieutenant Colonel Norman Bessel, who is

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Speaker 3: headed that way. He's like, oh, I'm going to France,

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Speaker 3: you know what I mean? Why just hop with me.

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Speaker 3: I'm already headed there. This was ad hoc, This was

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Speaker 3: a phone call. This was can you do me a

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Speaker 3: favorite type stuff? Not necessarily secret, but not necessarily official.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, not official at all, because let's talk about

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Speaker 2: why the planes kept getting delayed. The weather was so

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Speaker 2: terrible that the military was like, na, we can't fly

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Speaker 2: anything across the English Channel right now, as dangerous as hell. No, absolutely,

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Speaker 2: we're not going to send our big aircraft over there

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Speaker 2: that you could get a flight on. Glenn Miller and

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Speaker 2: these guys are like, eh, but what if we took

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Speaker 2: a baby plane.

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Speaker 3: Just a tiny, tiny plane once in a while as

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Speaker 3: a treat.

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And so, because this is ad hoc, the story

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Speaker 3: goes that the Allied Command in Northwestern Europe, the Supreme

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Speaker 3: Headquarters Allied Expeditionary Force or CHAFF, they didn't know where

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Speaker 3: he was. And so Miller and this lieutenant colonel and

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Speaker 3: their pilot, a very young guy, it's twenty two year

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Speaker 3: old named John Morgan, they crossed the channel, and or

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Speaker 3: they attempt to cross the channel. The Eighth Air Force,

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Speaker 3: the Allied authorities, they don't even know the plane is

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Speaker 3: missing until three days later, on December eighteenth. Like you said, Matt,

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Speaker 3: the rest of the band and flew on separate planes,

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Speaker 3: on much larger planes.

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Speaker 2: They got cleared when they were supposed to go, basically

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Speaker 2: when the weather cleared up, and uh, we're going to

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Speaker 2: get into but that's why the communication was so poor

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Speaker 2: because of the ad hoc nature of this that you're

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Speaker 2: talking about. So we can't stress that enough. The reason

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Speaker 2: why nobody knew until the eighteenth, three days later, is

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Speaker 2: because they kind of just winged it.

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Speaker 3: Ah, worth it, worth it, the NILP I'd left behind

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Speaker 3: it winged it. Oh, he's going to need a parachute.

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Speaker 3: And so Miller's own wife, this is heartbreaking. His wife, Helen,

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Speaker 3: doesn't learn that her husband has disappeared until December twenty third,

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Speaker 3: making this the worst Christmas ever. On the twenty fourth,

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Speaker 3: the next day, the United States government informs the press

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Speaker 3: and the public and everybody is asking what actually happened.

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Speaker 3: We have to remember this is before the age of

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Speaker 3: ubiquitous social media, right, so your access to information is

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Speaker 3: limited to radio and print and books and film right

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Speaker 3: at that point.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I've heard, guys, we were talking about Taylor Swift.

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Speaker 2: I've heard it compared to if the Rolling Stones got

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Speaker 2: on a flight just in their regular you know, touring

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Speaker 2: the world kind of thing, and they just went down

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Speaker 2: and we didn't know for weeks that the Rolling Stones

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Speaker 2: had disappeared. The only reason we find out is, you know,

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Speaker 2: it's like and imagine it having right around Christmas too,

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Speaker 2: But like, just the impact basically that the stones had

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Speaker 2: when they were coming up is what this guy had

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Speaker 2: on the world. And just to lose him like that

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Speaker 2: and for it to be a mystery, I think is

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Speaker 2: the craziest thing.

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Speaker 3: That's definitely wild. That's a great comparison. And let's pause

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Speaker 3: for a word from our sponsor. When we return, will

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Speaker 3: dive into the official explanation and the theories. We're back,

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Speaker 3: so what officially happens? We want to give a shout

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Speaker 3: out to our pal friend of the show, Jordan run

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Speaker 3: Talk Legend in his time. He wrote an article for

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Speaker 3: People magazine in twenty nineteen about this and we quite

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Speaker 3: like the way he put it.

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Speaker 4: Also did a really cool podcast called Stoness Touring Party

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Speaker 4: that has got a lot of stones on private planes

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Speaker 4: and you can use your imagination and imagine what might

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Speaker 4: have happened given the fervor around that US tour that

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Speaker 4: the podcast goes into. But Jordan points out that in

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Speaker 4: the article this the official explanation is the most obvious.

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Speaker 4: Miller and crew fell victim to bad weather, and then

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Speaker 4: goes on to talk about some meteorological terms that are

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Speaker 4: probably of a.

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Speaker 3: Particular interest to aviators.

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Speaker 4: Something called the cloud ceiling had fallen to fifteen hundred feet,

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Speaker 4: which is just a little bit more than four hundred

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Speaker 4: and fifty seven meters, if that's your bag. In twin

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Speaker 4: Wood Farm, which is the British point of departure for

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Speaker 4: Basil and Miller's.

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Speaker 3: Flight, And according to the story, France wasn't having great

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Speaker 3: weather either. They were already dealing with similar meteorological conditions

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Speaker 3: let's call it fog of war plus you know, regular

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Speaker 3: fog and French air traffic control. I'm still not sure

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Speaker 3: on this one. Apparently French ATC denied the pilot Morgan's

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Speaker 3: request to take this flight over the Channel, and they

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Speaker 3: flew the plane anyway. But you can find other people

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Speaker 3: arguing it was not foggy, or that the flight was

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Speaker 3: not unauthorized. Curious or and curious.

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Speaker 2: It's so weird because everything I've seen in researching for

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Speaker 2: this shows that it is like may I don't know,

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Speaker 2: I don't know if it's just the official story that

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Speaker 2: was put out there has been repeated so many times,

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Speaker 2: you know, as we encounter some of these some of

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Speaker 2: these other stories like that, it just becomes a part

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Speaker 2: of the record that everybody points to when they're going

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Speaker 2: to write an article. But it does seem like most

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Speaker 2: people agree whether was at least a factor in the flight,

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Speaker 2: if the flight timing at least.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, because again, for two days before the flight, he

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Speaker 3: couldn't get on the plane because of the weather, So

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Speaker 3: it makes sense. Jordan also notes that this particular craft

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Speaker 3: these three men were on had a couple of known issues.

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Speaker 3: One of them was an issue with the engine carburetors,

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Speaker 3: and the other wind was the fuel lines. Fuel Lines

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Speaker 3: can freeze if the temperature is low enough, and it

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Speaker 3: turns out that's bad for planes.

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Speaker 2: Okay, serious question. Isn't this a Canadian created, crafted plane,

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Speaker 2: like you are correct, some pretty cold weather, right, you know,

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Speaker 2: that's just weird that the fuel lines would be an

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Speaker 2: issue in a plane, you know, with creative the Yeah whatever.

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Speaker 3: I did a Casino de Niro shrug since we're audio

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Speaker 3: on that. So yeah. So if you go to a

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Speaker 3: twenty fourteen episode of History Detective where in the interview

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Speaker 3: Dennis Sprague, you'll see that he argues the aircraft got

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Speaker 3: over the channel, it hit those freezing temperatures, that eighty

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Speaker 3: six is the engine and this UC sixty four A

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Speaker 3: goes nose down, face first into the water, and Dennis

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Speaker 3: Sprague argues that this happened very quickly, like within the

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Speaker 3: space of eight.

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Speaker 2: Seconds after taking off.

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Speaker 3: No, not after taking off, sorry, you know, in the

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Speaker 3: air things go wrong. Eight seconds later they hit the water,

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Speaker 3: and he believes that all three people died near instantaneously.

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Speaker 2: Wow, I guess that makes sense, because the reason you

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Speaker 2: get cloud cover right like that is because of two

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Speaker 2: different walls of temperature right that are smashing up against

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Speaker 2: each other. I can imagine that there would you you know,

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Speaker 2: you hit that threshold near the channel or something, you

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Speaker 2: hit really cold temperatures, and then that's it.

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Speaker 3: That makes sense to me logically. Yeah, it's a plausible explanation.

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Speaker 3: It's still the official explanation of the US. It's it's

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Speaker 3: just true. Planes are subject to a tremendous amount of

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Speaker 3: variables in every single flight. Apologies for any of our

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Speaker 3: fellow conspiracy realists who are listening to this on a plane.

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Speaker 3: Now you're going to be okay.

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Speaker 2: Well, my dog doesn't think so.

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Speaker 3: Be careful. So obviously not everyone accepts this explanation. The

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Speaker 3: news goes nuts and then it dies down and fast forward,

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Speaker 3: the world still spend, other crazy things are happening into

395
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Speaker 3: China conflict, the Cold War immediately starts after World War Two,

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Speaker 3: and it's not until the late nineteen eighties that there

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Speaker 3: is a renaissance in speculation. In nineteen eighty five, a

398
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Speaker 3: British diver named Clive Ward found what he thought might

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Speaker 3: be the Norseman, the wreckage of it off the coast

400
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Speaker 3: of France. He found, according to the story, no crazy

401
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Speaker 3: damage to the plane, no signs of the plane's serial

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Speaker 3: number registration, and no human remains on the craft. As

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00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:41,280
Speaker 3: we record, this has still yet to be officially confirmed

404
00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:45,320
Speaker 3: as Miller's plane, and so the speculation only grows.

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Speaker 2: And in that speculation there's some wild stuff. There's some

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Speaker 2: wild stuff, there's some pretty convincing. There's even a deathbed,

407
00:23:55,800 --> 00:24:00,800
Speaker 2: not a confession, but like a deathbed realization almost was recorded.

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Speaker 3: There are a lot of theories, right, and some of

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Speaker 3: these touch upon, dare we say, the runway of conspiracy.

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00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:12,400
Speaker 3: But how many of those take off and how many

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Speaker 3: actually land? Oh no, So let's talk about the first one.

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Speaker 3: Friendly fire? What is friendly fire?

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Speaker 4: Oh man, It's when you accidentally get kicked in the

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Speaker 4: nuts during a game of dodgeball.

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Speaker 2: Huh yeah, maybe yeah. I think it might have to

416
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Speaker 2: do with your team accidentally.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, by your team, sorry, yeah, but maybe not kick,

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Speaker 4: maybe hit with the ball. So I just I don't

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Speaker 4: know why I had that on the brain. For sure,

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Speaker 4: it's a thing. It sounds fun, friendly fire. No, it

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Speaker 4: happens in like video games too. Certain games disable that

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Speaker 4: where you can't accidentally shoot your team member or your

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Speaker 4: party member. But I do believe there are some online

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Speaker 4: type games where you you definitely can and then that's

425
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Speaker 4: very bad, very bad for you. But in war, the

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Speaker 4: fog of war is a term that we we know

427
00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:05,000
Speaker 4: happens very often. People are freaked out, they're on edge,

428
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Speaker 4: they're keyed up. Something might go aw pop out at you,

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Speaker 4: and you just you shoot first and ask questions later,

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Speaker 4: and then only to realize that it was your buddy,

431
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Speaker 4: you know, Steve.

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Speaker 3: Well, yeah, classic Steve.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: But it's also it's a horrifying thing that occurs to

435
00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:27,480
Speaker 2: every military. Yes, and it happens way more than you think, unfortunately,

436
00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:29,560
Speaker 2: and it is it. It's why things.

437
00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:31,240
Speaker 3: Are enough that they made a term for it, you

438
00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:31,840
Speaker 3: know what I mean?

439
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:37,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, but it's why things like official, buttoned up

440
00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:40,760
Speaker 2: flight plans that are communicated between like three or four

441
00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:45,600
Speaker 2: different entities, right, are so important. It's what was that

442
00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:48,800
Speaker 2: chef thinks something you mentioned earlier, Ben, It's a they

443
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:50,919
Speaker 2: had a weird acronym to it, but it was like

444
00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:54,000
Speaker 2: special Yeah.

445
00:25:53,640 --> 00:26:01,119
Speaker 3: Supreme Supreme Headquarters. It rolls off the tongue the Supreme

446
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:06,360
Speaker 3: Headquarters ally Expeditionary Force Shaief's all right, now, rock the CASBA.

447
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:10,119
Speaker 2: But that's why that's so important, because they are monitoring

448
00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:16,280
Speaker 2: where specifically like pretty relatively small avenues of travel that

449
00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:20,399
Speaker 2: are permitted for different different types of aircraft at different

450
00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:24,840
Speaker 2: times every day, and it's all to prevent friendly fire mostly,

451
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:28,120
Speaker 2: I think because if you can't identify an aircraft, as

452
00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:30,560
Speaker 2: we all know, if you're in a hot war time

453
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:34,480
Speaker 2: and there's some unknown aircraft flying around your airspace, you're

454
00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:36,199
Speaker 2: probably not going to take too kind to it.

455
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:38,560
Speaker 4: And I mean, these are all meant to be sort

456
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:41,560
Speaker 4: of covert flight plans in the first place, so you know,

457
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:43,720
Speaker 4: the good guys need to know exactly where you know,

458
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:46,600
Speaker 4: good guys in quotation marries where they are so they

459
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:49,240
Speaker 4: don't accidentally mistake them for somebody else trying to be

460
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:52,120
Speaker 4: sneaky because everyone's trying to be sneaky in these situations.

461
00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:56,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, how do you get the correct information out

462
00:26:56,920 --> 00:27:02,639
Speaker 3: to people without that information being collected by rivals or

463
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:06,600
Speaker 3: enemy forces. Let's go to a guy named Fredshaw. At

464
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:11,000
Speaker 3: the time, Fredshaw was the navigator of a Lancaster plane

465
00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:16,760
Speaker 3: that was based in Methwold, not meth World. That cost

466
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:21,679
Speaker 3: me the resource style in Jersey. Yeah, I was like

467
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:26,840
Speaker 3: meth worlds crazy. And on the day that Miller's plane disappeared,

468
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:30,320
Speaker 3: there were a bunch of Lancaster bombers, one of them

469
00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:35,439
Speaker 3: was Shaws, Fredshaw's, and they were returning from Germany because

470
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:39,360
Speaker 3: they were sent on a bombing raid. But the bombing

471
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:43,080
Speaker 3: raid had to be aborted because they didn't have the

472
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 3: again to comms, right to structure, They didn't have the

473
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:50,520
Speaker 3: stuff they needed in place to successfully conduct that raid.

474
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:53,840
Speaker 3: So they go all the way out there, they turn

475
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 3: around and the squadron says, crap, we can't land with

476
00:27:59,880 --> 00:28:04,320
Speaker 3: all these bombs on these planes. Somebody get these MFN

477
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:09,240
Speaker 3: bombs off this MFM plane and they had a redundancy.

478
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:12,280
Speaker 3: They had a contingency for this, I should say, the

479
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 3: jettison one hundred thousand bombs into a place called the

480
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:22,399
Speaker 3: South Jettison area. This was a known place right to

481
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:25,600
Speaker 3: the idea of mapping out safe places to do things.

482
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:28,919
Speaker 3: This was where you were supposed to go. It's like

483
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:30,960
Speaker 3: the public restroom for bombs.

484
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:35,720
Speaker 2: Isn't that crazy? Over the English Channel? Like dropping one

485
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:40,680
Speaker 2: hundred thousand bombs and it's like that blows my mind

486
00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:44,200
Speaker 2: because it has to do with weight, right, and fuel reserves,

487
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:46,640
Speaker 2: like how much fuel you have to get in certain places,

488
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:49,920
Speaker 2: and then being able to land the vehicle the plane

489
00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:53,320
Speaker 2: safely like that. It's crazy to me that you would

490
00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:58,440
Speaker 2: drop a waste that many bombs because those things what

491
00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:01,880
Speaker 2: I mean, my god, we talked now about how expressed

492
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:04,520
Speaker 2: are and everything, and I know those have way more

493
00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:08,360
Speaker 2: sophisticated components on them. But dang man, I.

494
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:11,000
Speaker 4: Really wanted to make a George Jettison joke, but it

495
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:14,800
Speaker 4: didn't present itself there it is. That's the best you

496
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:16,400
Speaker 4: can do, and you can't actually make the joke. You

497
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:18,200
Speaker 4: just say what the pune was going to be. We

498
00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 4: just leave it at that.

499
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:24,160
Speaker 3: So these bombs, like you said, no, they get George

500
00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:29,840
Speaker 3: jettisoned from four to five thousand feet above right from

501
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:33,959
Speaker 3: that elevation, and at this time, our buddy Fredshaw, who

502
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:37,840
Speaker 3: has never seen this occur before, he looks down and

503
00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:41,560
Speaker 3: out the window of his craft, and according to him,

504
00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 3: he sees these bombs exploding above the surface of the sea,

505
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:50,080
Speaker 3: and at the same time he sees a plane about

506
00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:54,120
Speaker 3: twenty five hundred feet below. This plane is flying south,

507
00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:58,200
Speaker 3: which would have been the same direction of Miller's plane,

508
00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:03,080
Speaker 3: if this was indeed Miller's. And so he let's treat

509
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:06,400
Speaker 3: him as an eyewitness here, and let's take a couple

510
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:09,040
Speaker 3: of his quotes that occur far after the fact.

511
00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:13,160
Speaker 4: By the way, absolutely this is what he noted years later.

512
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:15,200
Speaker 4: And as we know, eyewitness accounts you and on the

513
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:16,800
Speaker 4: best day close to the event.

514
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:18,640
Speaker 3: Can be a little sketch. But this is years later.

515
00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:19,440
Speaker 3: Just pointing that out.

516
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:23,960
Speaker 4: It was obvious to me that the aeroplane below was

517
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:27,960
Speaker 4: in trouble, so I watched intently. Then just before it

518
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 4: went out of sight under the leading edge of the wing,

519
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:34,040
Speaker 4: I saw it flick over to port in what looked.

520
00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:36,880
Speaker 3: Like an incipient spin. I don't quite know what that is,

521
00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:37,640
Speaker 3: but it's cool word.

522
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:40,920
Speaker 4: I guess I'm confusing with incipid, which would be a

523
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:43,520
Speaker 4: really stupid spin. This is an incipient spin, which is

524
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:45,760
Speaker 4: something different, which we'll find out about in a minute.

525
00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:49,240
Speaker 4: And eventually I saw it disappear into the English channel.

526
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:51,480
Speaker 3: Ban, I saw you giggling. It was an incipient spin.

527
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:54,920
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, no, I was checking to make sure the

528
00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:57,760
Speaker 3: etymology was right before I said anything. It just means

529
00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:01,680
Speaker 3: nascent beginning emergent. Oh, like he sees the plane beginning

530
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:05,080
Speaker 3: to spin. Got it. And I was actually looking up

531
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:06,920
Speaker 3: port yeah.

532
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:15,040
Speaker 4: Uh, front, So let's I don't remember. I usually didn't

533
00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:18,160
Speaker 4: realize they used nautical terms as well for airplanes.

534
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:22,880
Speaker 3: I think one, there's port, there's starboard, starboard, and stern,

535
00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:28,200
Speaker 3: right yeah, yeah, and uh they're used for spacecraft as well. Guys,

536
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:31,200
Speaker 3: we have to figure this out before we go into space.

537
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:33,560
Speaker 2: Do it well, before we do that, let's get another

538
00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:36,600
Speaker 2: quick quote from mister Shaw, because I again it's it's

539
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:40,880
Speaker 2: terms that we're unfamiliar with. He said, Uh, I crawled

540
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:43,719
Speaker 2: from my navigator seat and put my head in the

541
00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:48,560
Speaker 2: observation blister, which I've seen some World War two, you

542
00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:52,200
Speaker 2: know stuff, some films where they used actual aircraft and things,

543
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:54,640
Speaker 2: and I think that's actually it looks kind of like

544
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:58,320
Speaker 2: a bubble window right that you can look out more

545
00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:00,200
Speaker 2: from the bottom, not even from the side.

546
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:04,280
Speaker 3: Right, mm hmm, yeah, because you needed that visual acuity, right.

547
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:08,520
Speaker 3: And it also reminds me of that terrifying poem. It

548
00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:11,240
Speaker 3: goes like this, the death of the ball turret gutter

549
00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:15,200
Speaker 3: from my mother's sleep. I fell into the state and

550
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:18,360
Speaker 3: I hunched in its belly till my wet fur froze

551
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:22,800
Speaker 3: six miles from earth, loosed from its dream of life.

552
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:27,680
Speaker 3: I woke to Black Flack and the Nightmare Fighters. When

553
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:30,360
Speaker 3: I died, they washed me out of the turret with

554
00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:35,920
Speaker 3: a hose. God. So okay, So other people on the

555
00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:41,240
Speaker 3: craft Pershaw, They confirm this. The bomb aimer reports the

556
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 3: same sighting. Someone goes over the intercom and says they've

557
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 3: seen something go down. But apparently this downed plane observation

558
00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:56,280
Speaker 3: doesn't get reported because the bombers are not an enemy

559
00:32:56,440 --> 00:33:00,400
Speaker 3: territory and because the raid that they were set time

560
00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:04,480
Speaker 3: was cut short. They never actually bombed it, so there

561
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:08,680
Speaker 3: wasn't an official operation and it got lost in the bureaucracy.

562
00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:12,560
Speaker 3: At least that's the story Shaw doesn't. Shaw writes this

563
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:16,400
Speaker 3: down in his log book, but he doesn't link this

564
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:21,840
Speaker 3: sighting to the disappearance of Glenn Miller until nineteen fifty

565
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:27,400
Speaker 3: six because he sees a film called the Glenn Miller Story. Yep.

566
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:30,920
Speaker 2: And of course we've seen this over the years, right,

567
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:35,560
Speaker 2: some big piece of media gets released and then other

568
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:37,640
Speaker 2: people come out of the woodwork to say, oh, I

569
00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 2: saw this or I saw that, which means then it's

570
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:46,120
Speaker 2: on everybody else to vet that story, right, because none

571
00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:48,680
Speaker 2: of us want to believe we're I mean, we all

572
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:51,520
Speaker 2: want to believe in a compelling story like that and

573
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:54,000
Speaker 2: someone's bringing truth to light for the first time, but

574
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:57,360
Speaker 2: we also don't want to be suckers. So when when

575
00:33:57,400 --> 00:33:59,760
Speaker 2: Shaw first comes out, he's looked at in that way, right,

576
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 2: he's kind of dismissed.

577
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:05,120
Speaker 3: Right, like, is this guy just after publicity?

578
00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:05,720
Speaker 1: You know?

579
00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:09,240
Speaker 3: Is he doing some sort of macabre play for attention?

580
00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:13,960
Speaker 3: But he checks his old log book, and the logbook

581
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:17,160
Speaker 3: is real, and he does have this writing of this

582
00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:21,680
Speaker 3: observation that he definitely didn't make in nineteen fifty six.

583
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:25,839
Speaker 3: He made it after this flight. And the problem is

584
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:32,000
Speaker 3: that it gives us a couple of prominent questions. First,

585
00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:36,840
Speaker 3: could Miller's plane have strayed into that South jettison zone.

586
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:40,760
Speaker 3: We know that, as you said earlier, there were approved routes,

587
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:44,719
Speaker 3: There were airways through which these craft were allowed to

588
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:50,080
Speaker 3: fly at certain times, and apparently the approved shuttle route

589
00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:55,040
Speaker 3: to France was pretty close to that south Jettison area,

590
00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:58,480
Speaker 3: close enough that there's a margin of error. So if

591
00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:02,360
Speaker 3: the weather is bad, if you're maybe an inexperienced pilot

592
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:07,359
Speaker 3: and you don't have the best grasp of navigating by

593
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:08,719
Speaker 3: instruments alone.

594
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:12,239
Speaker 2: Which might know his pilot, right was not, at least

595
00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:14,960
Speaker 2: he didn't have the extra certification you needed.

596
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:19,560
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, So it is possible then, with all these

597
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:23,000
Speaker 3: factors that they could have gone off the trail a bit.

598
00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:27,120
Speaker 3: He would have been morgan, the pilot would have been

599
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:30,120
Speaker 3: using a compass, and it may have been human error.

600
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:35,480
Speaker 3: And when they stray into this jettison zone, if they did,

601
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:38,880
Speaker 3: then maybe they got hit by as you said, no

602
00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:43,600
Speaker 3: friendly fire. Shaw's not the only one saying this though.

603
00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:48,719
Speaker 2: No, you're right, guys, just quickly, I have this image

604
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:54,000
Speaker 2: of bombs falling from bombers like that right several thousand

605
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:57,200
Speaker 2: feet above you. If you're in a noisy little plane

606
00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:00,759
Speaker 2: like they're in, right, I don't think you would hear

607
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:04,760
Speaker 2: a thing. You know, we're so used to the sound

608
00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:07,759
Speaker 2: of bombs falling from popular media, you know, and all

609
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:11,360
Speaker 2: of that. Maybe there is something there. I don't know.

610
00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:15,239
Speaker 4: Experience, it seems for a fact, honestly, and depending on

611
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:19,520
Speaker 4: the size and the distance, perhaps, but yeah, maybe the explosion.

612
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:26,280
Speaker 2: But again, but if you're on that plane and that

613
00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:30,080
Speaker 2: type of bomb explodes just above where your heads are

614
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:33,080
Speaker 2: on that plane, I don't know if you even hear

615
00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:35,440
Speaker 2: anything it would if it happened, I think it would

616
00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:36,440
Speaker 2: just be over.

617
00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:41,160
Speaker 3: Aren't bombs sometimes attached to parachutes? I think we talked

618
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:44,800
Speaker 3: about in a previous episode. We talked about a couple

619
00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:49,640
Speaker 3: of different like crazy World War two bombing schemes. But

620
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:53,279
Speaker 3: I these would be unguided bombs right at this time,

621
00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:56,800
Speaker 3: So that's right, Yeah, so they could have had parachutes perhaps,

622
00:36:56,840 --> 00:37:01,360
Speaker 3: definitely to your point, World War two bombs did have parachutes, right.

623
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:04,359
Speaker 2: It would increase visibility. You know, you're in a heap

624
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:06,960
Speaker 2: of trouble if you're flying along that path, right and

625
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:09,680
Speaker 2: you can see that either in the distance heading towards it,

626
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:11,640
Speaker 2: or just alongside you maybe parallel.

627
00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, and now let's introduce a guy named Victor Gregory,

628
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:20,160
Speaker 3: who captained the plane that Shaw was on. He later

629
00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:24,640
Speaker 3: confirmed Shaw's account and he said, look, our bombardier spotted

630
00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:27,520
Speaker 3: the plane, called the navigator over to have a look,

631
00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:32,279
Speaker 3: and then, according to the story, fred Shaw identified the

632
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:36,120
Speaker 3: plane as a Norseman as this UC sixty four A,

633
00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:40,320
Speaker 3: which good. I I guess that's amazing.

634
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:44,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, from what what are we saying over two thousand

635
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:47,280
Speaker 2: feet away? Aroun a thousand feet away? Because the Norseman

636
00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:51,960
Speaker 2: theoretically is flying underneath that cloud cover, right, which is

637
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:56,160
Speaker 2: very low in the sky. And just to be all

638
00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:58,399
Speaker 2: like what, but here's the other thing we did talk

639
00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:00,239
Speaker 2: about how it's a very unique plane.

640
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:00,480
Speaker 3: Right.

641
00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:04,919
Speaker 2: There were only a couple dozen that were operating during

642
00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:09,600
Speaker 2: the war, right, So like maybe.

643
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:11,680
Speaker 3: Maybe it stuck out, you know, maybe it was like

644
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:15,280
Speaker 3: when Tesla first came out, you would notice a Tesla

645
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:18,520
Speaker 3: immediately on the road. I don't know, it's it's a

646
00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:20,879
Speaker 3: good argument, and I think it's safe to say that

647
00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:24,920
Speaker 3: we're the three of us in that situation. We almost

648
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:30,719
Speaker 3: definitely could not randomly identify a small Canadian aircraft. Yeah.

649
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:32,920
Speaker 2: Well, and especially all the pictures I'm seeing it's in

650
00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:33,640
Speaker 2: black and white.

651
00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:34,600
Speaker 3: I'm just chiking.

652
00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:36,719
Speaker 2: I'm just jogging. I'm just I was gonna make a

653
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:38,239
Speaker 2: joke about fog and it would be really hard to

654
00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:39,000
Speaker 2: see those colors.

655
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:43,680
Speaker 3: All right, that's warre you go.

656
00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:45,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, everything's in black and white.

657
00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:48,919
Speaker 3: And so Gregory was asked, well, why didn't you come

658
00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:52,440
Speaker 3: forward until later? And there's there's a ton more about this.

659
00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:55,640
Speaker 3: Folks were just giving you the high level stuff, not

660
00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:59,839
Speaker 3: an altitude joke. Gregory says, in part, Look, my own

661
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:04,759
Speaker 3: concern was getting my airplane home safely. We're fighting a war.

662
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:08,000
Speaker 3: We lost thousands of planes. And then he adds, we

663
00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:11,120
Speaker 3: had some pretty grim raids after that, and they didn't

664
00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:15,319
Speaker 3: announce Miller's death until later. It had gone completely from

665
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:18,920
Speaker 3: my mind, which is believable. And you know, he is

666
00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:24,960
Speaker 3: he appears to be giving an honest, good faith explanation,

667
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:28,920
Speaker 3: right and saying, you know, clearly he's also aware of

668
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:33,440
Speaker 3: the danger of memory and eyewitness recollections.

669
00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:36,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the kind of thing you want to believe, right,

670
00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:39,279
Speaker 2: You want to believe that humans are going to be

671
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:42,799
Speaker 2: honest about that, and that they could recall something like

672
00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:48,880
Speaker 2: this with that kind of clarity and wouldn't want to,

673
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:53,279
Speaker 2: you know, pull the wall over anybody's eyes. It's tough

674
00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:57,040
Speaker 2: because this isn't even close to the only story that's

675
00:39:57,040 --> 00:39:59,240
Speaker 2: out there, not at all.

676
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:03,600
Speaker 3: This story where he does inspire the Royal Air Force

677
00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:07,680
Speaker 3: to carry out an investigation, but there's no raid report

678
00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:12,600
Speaker 3: on record because the raid was aborted. And because of this,

679
00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:18,719
Speaker 3: there are so many branches of speculation, especially on the

680
00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:23,080
Speaker 3: friendly fire concept. Look the author we cited earlier, Dennis Spragge,

681
00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:28,120
Speaker 3: he himself considers the friendly fire theory untrue, and he

682
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:31,760
Speaker 3: does a lot of forensics here. He points to a

683
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:34,480
Speaker 3: about an hour to an hour and a half discrepancy

684
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:38,520
Speaker 3: between when that Jennison of bombs occurred and when he

685
00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:42,600
Speaker 3: believes Miller's flight would have been in that area potentially.

686
00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:47,160
Speaker 3: But like you said, Matt, this is far far from

687
00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:50,880
Speaker 3: the only theory, all right. This is the deep water,

688
00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:56,240
Speaker 3: This is the more fringe theories there. There's a genre

689
00:40:56,400 --> 00:41:02,040
Speaker 3: of alternative explanations about Glenn Miller's dem or disappearance that

690
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:06,440
Speaker 3: point to deep conspiracy. One of them comes out in

691
00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:13,799
Speaker 3: nineteen ninety seven. A German journalist named udof Quote helped

692
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:15,840
Speaker 3: me with that one. Oh, I think he did a

693
00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:16,439
Speaker 3: fine job.

694
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:21,120
Speaker 5: I was gonna say ohta perfect perfect. You have to

695
00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:24,240
Speaker 5: yell when you say like that, waiting to do it.

696
00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:28,200
Speaker 5: It's like Clayton, Yes, now look, I'm being flippant, No district.

697
00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:30,279
Speaker 5: The German language is a beautiful language. I just have

698
00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:33,680
Speaker 5: a fun time with over enunciating and saying in a

699
00:41:33,719 --> 00:41:34,760
Speaker 5: bit of a yelly fashion.

700
00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:40,480
Speaker 4: What did this guy do though, Well, he was a

701
00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:44,520
Speaker 4: as you said, a very talented and intelligent German journalist

702
00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:49,399
Speaker 4: who really threw himself into the research and looking through

703
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:53,280
Speaker 4: just you know, hundreds of pages of American and German

704
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:56,200
Speaker 4: intelligence that he was able to get access to, documenting

705
00:41:56,239 --> 00:41:58,719
Speaker 4: wartime efforts for a book that he was writing on

706
00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:03,800
Speaker 4: German intelligence Age Sees in particular. And uf Quota supposedly

707
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:07,959
Speaker 4: did find some evidence to cover this whole thing up,

708
00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:13,120
Speaker 4: and he argued that Glenn Miller arrived in Paris on

709
00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:19,799
Speaker 4: December fourteenth, alive and well, but later died under some

710
00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:24,920
Speaker 4: chipilating and scandalous circumstances, perhaps, let's just say, in the

711
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:29,400
Speaker 4: company of a lady who was paid to keep his company.

712
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:35,040
Speaker 3: Right, and was a professional at keeping company, such that

713
00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:39,440
Speaker 3: she made his heart go pitter patter, and he died.

714
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:44,840
Speaker 2: Put pitter peta caput. I want to Maybe this isn't necessary,

715
00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:46,759
Speaker 2: but in my mind, guys, I just wanted you to

716
00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:51,680
Speaker 2: know I'm separating this theory into two very distinct things, sure,

717
00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:55,560
Speaker 2: which is he actually made it there in some kind

718
00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:58,520
Speaker 2: of cover up situation, right, and then that there was

719
00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:03,280
Speaker 2: this other thing potentially with a sex worker, but also

720
00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:06,359
Speaker 2: just in general that he was working in some other

721
00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:12,759
Speaker 2: capacity for an intelligent side too, because there's stuff in there.

722
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:14,480
Speaker 2: There are other theories I don't think we're really going

723
00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:16,920
Speaker 2: to touch on, but that he was actually on some

724
00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:21,600
Speaker 2: covert mission almost of diplomacy with Germany.

725
00:43:21,239 --> 00:43:25,960
Speaker 4: Well factor negotiations. This is not out of the question though.

726
00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:28,319
Speaker 4: We know things like this did happen, and we have

727
00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:31,600
Speaker 4: examples of folks who were able to use their status,

728
00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:35,920
Speaker 4: whatever it might have been, to help their government. There's

729
00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:38,920
Speaker 4: actually a really cool podcast, not a fictional, like a

730
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:42,560
Speaker 4: scripted type podcast that my heart is developing right now.

731
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:43,439
Speaker 3: The should be out soon.

732
00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:45,960
Speaker 4: Spoiler alert slightly, just a little bit of a tip

733
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:50,400
Speaker 4: about this guy named Fodor who was the founder of

734
00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:54,840
Speaker 4: this very influential travel guide and because he was always

735
00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:58,840
Speaker 4: traveling around and doing scoping out new things for these guides,

736
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:01,880
Speaker 4: he was a perfect can to be a covert agent,

737
00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:04,719
Speaker 4: and he very much was, and that is what the

738
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:06,960
Speaker 4: series is about it. But believe there's actually a documentary out

739
00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:08,600
Speaker 4: there or out about it too. This is definitely something

740
00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:12,120
Speaker 4: we should talk about photo on the podcast some time,

741
00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:13,960
Speaker 4: maybe a little closer to when the show comes out.

742
00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:16,520
Speaker 3: And to be honest, not only is that kind of

743
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:20,480
Speaker 3: stuff possible and plausible, like friendly fire, it may occur

744
00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:25,680
Speaker 3: more than we think, right, but it's also not necessarily

745
00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:28,400
Speaker 3: James Bond glorious type stuff.

746
00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:28,759
Speaker 1: You know.

747
00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:33,560
Speaker 3: It's like, let's have a conversation off the record in

748
00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:37,880
Speaker 3: a way that the official powers can plausibly deny things

749
00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:41,520
Speaker 3: happened if that conversation doesn't work out. And we know,

750
00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:44,800
Speaker 3: by the way, to this point, we know that Miller

751
00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:50,280
Speaker 3: was involved in propaganda, many Allied figures, many access figures,

752
00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:56,799
Speaker 3: people note, celebrities, entertainers, They were involved in propagandistic exercises. Right.

753
00:44:56,920 --> 00:45:02,919
Speaker 3: Miller made broadcast to Germans in the German language where

754
00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:06,320
Speaker 3: it was attempting to persuade them like, you know, guten

755
00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:09,800
Speaker 3: tag guys, it's your buddy Glynn, give up the war,

756
00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:11,879
Speaker 3: you know what I mean, be on the right side

757
00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:16,400
Speaker 3: of history. And that may have been a factor in

758
00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:19,239
Speaker 3: what it was doing. But for that to be the explanation,

759
00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:24,040
Speaker 3: then we're asking a lot, We're ascribing a lot of

760
00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:26,480
Speaker 3: talent to whomever would cover that up.

761
00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:30,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. Well I mean, well, do you guys

762
00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:34,200
Speaker 2: remember when you found out Julia Child had some operations

763
00:45:34,239 --> 00:45:36,759
Speaker 2: with the what is it, oh, the thing before the

764
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:41,319
Speaker 2: CIA oss that one, Like, I remember learning that and

765
00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:44,839
Speaker 2: just being dumbfounded. But it's what, it's exactly what you're

766
00:45:44,840 --> 00:45:48,640
Speaker 2: speaking to Ben being able to use that celebrity and

767
00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:54,160
Speaker 2: almost universal appreciation to get messages across. So it is

768
00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:59,799
Speaker 2: almost psychological stuff and operations more than anything. But it

769
00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:02,520
Speaker 2: does seem like an enemy would not want to take

770
00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:05,440
Speaker 2: him out. Maybe for those same reasons.

771
00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:08,840
Speaker 3: Right you would ideally you would want to turn the

772
00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:13,680
Speaker 3: piece right in the game. But I mean, okay, if

773
00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:17,680
Speaker 3: if this stuff about the if the diver finds this

774
00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:22,880
Speaker 3: plane right in eighty seven, if there is truth of

775
00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:27,080
Speaker 3: any sort to a conspiracy, if the guy is acting

776
00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:31,319
Speaker 3: as more than one of the world's most popular musicians,

777
00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:39,040
Speaker 3: then why why cover it up? Was it embarrassment on

778
00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:42,080
Speaker 3: behalf of the allies or the access powers they were

779
00:46:42,120 --> 00:46:45,800
Speaker 3: speaking with? And if you planted a plane. That's crazy.

780
00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:49,200
Speaker 3: You'll see people arguing the plane was planted in the channel.

781
00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:51,800
Speaker 3: How are you going to go to all that trouble

782
00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:57,680
Speaker 3: and then forget to add bodies. It feels like a misstep.

783
00:46:57,320 --> 00:47:00,239
Speaker 2: Because they think it's going to be found in the

784
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:02,800
Speaker 2: eighties and the bodies would just be disintegrated by that.

785
00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:09,600
Speaker 3: Okay. So famously inefficient governments are the folks who can't

786
00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:12,280
Speaker 3: figure out how to get people to pay the taxes

787
00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:17,440
Speaker 3: every year. They're the same ones going in me out

788
00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:22,680
Speaker 3: in nineteen eighty seven, they will be playing found and

789
00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:26,080
Speaker 3: this will put the whole Glenn Miller debacle to bed.

790
00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:29,400
Speaker 3: And everybody's like, oh, chuff, chuff chuff.

791
00:47:32,680 --> 00:47:37,960
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it's weird to me because there are human

792
00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:41,839
Speaker 2: beings that have devoted most of their lives to researching

793
00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:46,160
Speaker 2: this stuff, right, kind of similar to the Zodiac researchers

794
00:47:46,200 --> 00:47:48,880
Speaker 2: who maintain things and just like that's their thing, you know,

795
00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:51,400
Speaker 2: and they're gonna find out every piece of information that

796
00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:54,160
Speaker 2: ever comes up, every interview. They've got it and they're

797
00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:56,759
Speaker 2: gonna analyze it. There are human beings out there that

798
00:47:56,880 --> 00:47:58,840
Speaker 2: look at the Glenn Miller story and do the same

799
00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:02,319
Speaker 2: thing like Rick Gillespie of Tiger I think is how

800
00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:07,680
Speaker 2: you would say it, the International Group for Historic Aircraft Recovery.

801
00:48:08,120 --> 00:48:09,840
Speaker 3: And that's a cool blackronym.

802
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:14,399
Speaker 2: Well, they look at stuff like this and often it's

803
00:48:14,440 --> 00:48:19,480
Speaker 2: almost like not skeptoid, but what's the one where the

804
00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:23,719
Speaker 2: uh snoops, snap spe Yeah. It reminds you of those

805
00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:26,319
Speaker 2: where you you almost look at anything new and you

806
00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:29,520
Speaker 2: automatically say no to it unless you can prove it right.

807
00:48:30,560 --> 00:48:33,320
Speaker 2: And I do wonder if there's almost too much skepticism

808
00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:37,000
Speaker 2: even in myself right now when I'm considering this, because

809
00:48:37,200 --> 00:48:41,760
Speaker 2: there's it's got to be a possibility, right.

810
00:48:41,640 --> 00:48:44,880
Speaker 3: And we don't know enough to say that did not

811
00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:49,800
Speaker 3: occur exactly. And that's this gets us to the next

812
00:48:49,960 --> 00:48:54,360
Speaker 3: genre of theories surrounding Glenn Miller, the weird stuff. What

813
00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:57,040
Speaker 3: if he was a spy, What if he stepped the

814
00:48:57,080 --> 00:49:01,160
Speaker 3: wrong way and Old Ike was like get rid of him?

815
00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:04,560
Speaker 3: Or what if he what if he was taken by

816
00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:07,799
Speaker 3: enemy forces? What if he was sent to make some

817
00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:12,520
Speaker 3: sort of backroom negotiation and things went sideways for him?

818
00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:15,600
Speaker 3: I mean, I also probably one of the craziest ones

819
00:49:15,640 --> 00:49:18,160
Speaker 3: I read, and I don't know much about this one guys.

820
00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:23,080
Speaker 3: But I read this idea that factions of the US

821
00:49:23,120 --> 00:49:27,520
Speaker 3: military decided to kill Miller off the record because he

822
00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:32,480
Speaker 3: was threatening to expose quote a cabal of gay US officers,

823
00:49:32,920 --> 00:49:37,200
Speaker 3: which sounds nuts until we realized that, you know, legendary

824
00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:41,000
Speaker 3: heroes of World War Two like Alan Turrey were prosecuted

825
00:49:41,080 --> 00:49:44,799
Speaker 3: or persecuted and then prosecuted for their sexual orientation.

826
00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:47,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, and have their lives ruined. I mean really, at

827
00:49:47,440 --> 00:49:50,120
Speaker 4: the time of the time, that was tantamounts to, you know,

828
00:49:50,239 --> 00:49:54,040
Speaker 4: being tried for witchcraft. I mean, it's really serious business.

829
00:49:54,040 --> 00:49:57,840
Speaker 4: So yeah, the accusation, whether whether we have any details

830
00:49:57,840 --> 00:50:00,480
Speaker 4: that would actually tie Miller to something like that or

831
00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:02,920
Speaker 4: to have any kind of I don't know. I mean,

832
00:50:03,239 --> 00:50:04,919
Speaker 4: I bet a lot of band leaders were probably pretty

833
00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:06,279
Speaker 4: famously homophobic back then.

834
00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:08,680
Speaker 3: Maybe that in and of itself, but that's a little

835
00:50:08,680 --> 00:50:09,520
Speaker 3: bit of a stretch. Bro House.

836
00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:11,600
Speaker 4: Also, the idea maybe that he faked his own death,

837
00:50:12,520 --> 00:50:14,719
Speaker 4: we don't really have any detail to support that. The

838
00:50:14,719 --> 00:50:18,480
Speaker 4: guy was absolutely at his peak, you know, he was

839
00:50:18,719 --> 00:50:22,000
Speaker 4: monstrous celebrity. We know that it at least we feels

840
00:50:22,080 --> 00:50:25,520
Speaker 4: that his sentiment for wanting to do this USO esque

841
00:50:25,560 --> 00:50:28,200
Speaker 4: stuff was coming from a place of goodness, a place

842
00:50:28,239 --> 00:50:29,800
Speaker 4: of like, you know, really wanting to help.

843
00:50:30,880 --> 00:50:33,000
Speaker 3: It doesn't really that that angle doesn't really make any sense.

844
00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:35,600
Speaker 4: I don't know, Ben, if you found any anything, any

845
00:50:35,640 --> 00:50:37,000
Speaker 4: breadcrumbs on that one.

846
00:50:37,719 --> 00:50:41,799
Speaker 3: Unfortunately not at this point, because it kind of like

847
00:50:41,920 --> 00:50:45,480
Speaker 3: we're talking about the long game of telephone that is history.

848
00:50:46,239 --> 00:50:49,719
Speaker 3: We take a couple of things we know to be true, right,

849
00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:53,160
Speaker 3: the homophobia, the persecution of that, which was very much

850
00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:56,239
Speaker 3: real also continues today, of course, and we take the

851
00:50:56,280 --> 00:51:01,800
Speaker 3: fact that this immensely popular with close ties to the

852
00:51:01,880 --> 00:51:05,279
Speaker 3: US government disappeared, and then people are trying to kind

853
00:51:05,320 --> 00:51:09,919
Speaker 3: of like red string get together, and unfortunately that's that's

854
00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:13,359
Speaker 3: not enough. I think we can say, now, look, if

855
00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:17,080
Speaker 3: it turns out that one is the truth, then we're

856
00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:19,560
Speaker 3: going to be the first people to come on on

857
00:51:19,600 --> 00:51:24,000
Speaker 3: the show and say, hey, here's what actually happened. There's

858
00:51:24,040 --> 00:51:25,960
Speaker 3: also the idea never even got on the plane.

859
00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:30,239
Speaker 2: But Ben, what would it take to to convince you? Cause,

860
00:51:30,280 --> 00:51:34,200
Speaker 2: like I right now, I'm skeptical that I could be convinced.

861
00:51:34,480 --> 00:51:36,440
Speaker 3: I don't think Glenn Miller is real.

862
00:51:36,520 --> 00:51:39,720
Speaker 2: No, But what I mean, it's like, even if somebody

863
00:51:39,760 --> 00:51:46,520
Speaker 2: brings a document like this is definitely a CIA document

864
00:51:46,560 --> 00:51:48,880
Speaker 2: that proves that this is actually what occurred, you know,

865
00:51:49,040 --> 00:51:52,880
Speaker 2: or something. I would be crazy skeptical simply because of

866
00:51:52,920 --> 00:51:56,759
Speaker 2: where we are with technology and you know, the way

867
00:51:56,800 --> 00:52:00,480
Speaker 2: we are with human interest in just doing something like

868
00:52:00,560 --> 00:52:03,879
Speaker 2: that that might get us a little what cloud or

869
00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:06,680
Speaker 2: something on social media. I don't know.

870
00:52:08,520 --> 00:52:10,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I was talking to my kid about something

871
00:52:10,840 --> 00:52:14,920
Speaker 4: kind of similar to that. They were just really fed

872
00:52:15,000 --> 00:52:18,200
Speaker 4: up with the whole like being bullied into having a

873
00:52:18,239 --> 00:52:22,240
Speaker 4: position on Palestine and Israel. Like my kid, my fourteen

874
00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:24,719
Speaker 4: year old kid, like just fed up with this, and

875
00:52:24,800 --> 00:52:28,800
Speaker 4: literally it was like I couldn't possibly have a stance

876
00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:30,720
Speaker 4: or an opinion on it that would be a value

877
00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:33,560
Speaker 4: to the point where I'm just I don't feel the

878
00:52:33,640 --> 00:52:35,520
Speaker 4: need to just talk about it all the time because

879
00:52:35,520 --> 00:52:38,080
Speaker 4: I don't really have anything to say. But then you

880
00:52:38,160 --> 00:52:41,120
Speaker 4: have so many people flooding with all of this information

881
00:52:41,280 --> 00:52:45,560
Speaker 4: slash misinformation, and that's they're fed up by that too,

882
00:52:45,960 --> 00:52:47,839
Speaker 4: because it's just so much stuff out there that it's

883
00:52:47,880 --> 00:52:50,920
Speaker 4: almost like it makes your head spin and like, am

884
00:52:50,920 --> 00:52:52,719
Speaker 4: I trying to Are people trying to play me?

885
00:52:53,160 --> 00:52:54,120
Speaker 3: They're bullying me?

886
00:52:54,239 --> 00:52:56,239
Speaker 4: And we know it's like so many different sides of

887
00:52:56,239 --> 00:52:59,120
Speaker 4: things that it is stymying. You know, it really does

888
00:52:59,200 --> 00:53:00,880
Speaker 4: kind of make you give you pause, and it's like,

889
00:53:01,480 --> 00:53:03,719
Speaker 4: can I trust anything? Can I trust any of this?

890
00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:08,480
Speaker 3: Yeah? I don't know. We also know that committing pseudo

891
00:53:08,640 --> 00:53:13,320
Speaker 3: side faking one's death is is incredibly difficult, like even

892
00:53:13,360 --> 00:53:15,600
Speaker 3: back then. And I think you guys are making great

893
00:53:15,640 --> 00:53:20,839
Speaker 3: points about the post truth environment, right, Like evidence can

894
00:53:20,920 --> 00:53:23,880
Speaker 3: be faked now quite effectively. By the way, especially if

895
00:53:23,880 --> 00:53:27,400
Speaker 3: we're talking about you know, just a screen grab of

896
00:53:27,480 --> 00:53:33,239
Speaker 3: apparently blurry document. You can make that stuff. You can

897
00:53:33,239 --> 00:53:35,840
Speaker 3: make it at home, try it out yourself. I'm kidding,

898
00:53:36,040 --> 00:53:38,440
Speaker 3: don't it's probably a crime on some level.

899
00:53:38,960 --> 00:53:41,800
Speaker 2: Is kind of fun, like, get some photoshop time in.

900
00:53:41,920 --> 00:53:46,040
Speaker 3: It's fun. It's a good basic skill to have, right,

901
00:53:46,200 --> 00:53:49,680
Speaker 3: especially in this gig economy. But the thing is there.

902
00:53:49,920 --> 00:53:53,600
Speaker 4: I read in my mind, I read that as gig economy.

903
00:53:53,840 --> 00:53:57,440
Speaker 3: There we go, yeah, okay, let's let's do you know what,

904
00:53:57,600 --> 00:54:01,600
Speaker 3: Let's be the first three person Ted Talk gig Academy

905
00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:03,600
Speaker 3: and then we'll just sort of yes and through it.

906
00:54:03,719 --> 00:54:09,000
Speaker 2: Right sick. It so so much synergy in that Ted Talk.

907
00:54:09,280 --> 00:54:14,480
Speaker 3: Mm hmm. We're really we're really leveraging our senergy. Look

908
00:54:14,800 --> 00:54:17,040
Speaker 3: as far as we can tell, folks, and there is

909
00:54:17,200 --> 00:54:20,160
Speaker 3: a lot of work that's gone into this. Miller does

910
00:54:20,160 --> 00:54:22,000
Speaker 3: not appear to have faked his death, or there's no

911
00:54:22,200 --> 00:54:25,239
Speaker 3: proof that he did. So it does appear that he

912
00:54:25,440 --> 00:54:28,960
Speaker 3: did leave on that plane, was leaving on a jet

913
00:54:29,040 --> 00:54:32,319
Speaker 3: plane and never landed in Paris. So you can find

914
00:54:32,400 --> 00:54:35,799
Speaker 3: more and more stuff. Like a doctor Chris Valenti is

915
00:54:35,920 --> 00:54:40,239
Speaker 3: probably one of the more famous or infamous people with

916
00:54:40,760 --> 00:54:46,000
Speaker 3: alternative theories about what happened to Miller. And he he's

917
00:54:46,040 --> 00:54:48,640
Speaker 3: got some problems. It's a story for another day. Maybe

918
00:54:48,719 --> 00:54:50,960
Speaker 3: he claimed that he got a phone call from a

919
00:54:50,960 --> 00:54:54,640
Speaker 3: government official who was threatening him and saying, you know,

920
00:54:54,880 --> 00:54:57,040
Speaker 3: harm is going to come to your family and to

921
00:54:57,120 --> 00:55:00,920
Speaker 3: you if you reveal the truth about Glenn Miller. And

922
00:55:00,960 --> 00:55:04,560
Speaker 3: then he said he could not reveal his findings as

923
00:55:04,600 --> 00:55:05,120
Speaker 3: a result.

924
00:55:05,680 --> 00:55:09,120
Speaker 2: Oh wow, of course, no, I'm just joking. I mean,

925
00:55:09,120 --> 00:55:12,799
Speaker 2: that's I don't know the I think. It's still astounding

926
00:55:12,840 --> 00:55:17,400
Speaker 2: to me that in May of twenty twenty three, CBS News,

927
00:55:17,440 --> 00:55:20,879
Speaker 2: like a local channel in Tampa, can put on an

928
00:55:21,080 --> 00:55:24,279
Speaker 2: entire story that only lasts a couple of minutes, right,

929
00:55:24,280 --> 00:55:27,360
Speaker 2: But there's a there's an actual reporter out in the

930
00:55:27,400 --> 00:55:32,360
Speaker 2: field talking to this guy, doctor James DiAngelo, who says, yes,

931
00:55:32,640 --> 00:55:35,560
Speaker 2: I was an oncologist, but now I'm obsessed with searching

932
00:55:35,560 --> 00:55:38,480
Speaker 2: for Glenn Miller and I think I know where he is.

933
00:55:38,560 --> 00:55:41,200
Speaker 2: They do the whole story on it, tell it again, right,

934
00:55:41,680 --> 00:55:45,600
Speaker 2: and then at the end of the story it's basically like, oh, well,

935
00:55:45,600 --> 00:55:48,200
Speaker 2: we think we know the serial number for the engine,

936
00:55:48,320 --> 00:55:50,959
Speaker 2: so if we did find the engine, we could prove

937
00:55:51,000 --> 00:55:54,360
Speaker 2: that it was the correct one, which is something but

938
00:55:54,560 --> 00:55:56,600
Speaker 2: just something, but it's also nothing.

939
00:55:57,040 --> 00:55:58,880
Speaker 3: It's kind of Oak Island esque.

940
00:55:59,280 --> 00:56:00,000
Speaker 2: Yeah.

941
00:56:00,200 --> 00:56:05,400
Speaker 3: Uh, this is the truth though sadly, people disappear every day.

942
00:56:05,880 --> 00:56:08,440
Speaker 3: And if we go back to Dennis Spratt and I

943
00:56:08,520 --> 00:56:12,520
Speaker 3: believe our pal Jordan agrees with him, this guy who

944
00:56:12,520 --> 00:56:15,760
Speaker 3: did the best investigation so far, the most credible one.

945
00:56:16,200 --> 00:56:19,440
Speaker 3: He believes it is a perfect storm of bad weather,

946
00:56:19,719 --> 00:56:24,440
Speaker 3: human error, and defects in the Norseman aircraft and that

947
00:56:24,480 --> 00:56:28,120
Speaker 3: brought the plane down. But until there's conclusive proof, until

948
00:56:28,160 --> 00:56:31,759
Speaker 3: there's that engine with the serial number or human remains,

949
00:56:32,040 --> 00:56:38,160
Speaker 3: then these alternative explanations are going to proliferate. So it's

950
00:56:38,160 --> 00:56:39,080
Speaker 3: a pickle m h.

951
00:56:39,760 --> 00:56:42,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, and again huge shout out to Jordan who does

952
00:56:42,719 --> 00:56:44,200
Speaker 4: great work on all kinds.

953
00:56:44,000 --> 00:56:47,200
Speaker 3: Of history mysteries, specifically.

954
00:56:46,719 --> 00:56:51,359
Speaker 4: Ones that involve musicians and rivals. Was a cool show

955
00:56:51,440 --> 00:56:53,759
Speaker 4: still out there that it ended, but there's some there's

956
00:56:53,800 --> 00:56:56,160
Speaker 4: a good catalog out there. Please do check out Stone's

957
00:56:56,200 --> 00:56:58,400
Speaker 4: Touring Party it ended as well, and there's some great

958
00:56:58,560 --> 00:57:00,560
Speaker 4: bonus content in there, and we're just really.

959
00:57:00,400 --> 00:57:01,120
Speaker 3: Proud of that show.

960
00:57:01,120 --> 00:57:04,880
Speaker 4: And I think it's a really interesting history of a

961
00:57:04,920 --> 00:57:08,200
Speaker 4: band and of the United States and what it was like,

962
00:57:08,520 --> 00:57:11,480
Speaker 4: you know, to be a kid going to a concert

963
00:57:12,080 --> 00:57:15,440
Speaker 4: in the South, you know in the nineteen early nineteen seventies,

964
00:57:15,480 --> 00:57:19,280
Speaker 4: you know, where the atmosphere was definitely a little bit fraud.

965
00:57:20,280 --> 00:57:23,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, guys, gotta just shout out a website really quick

966
00:57:23,760 --> 00:57:26,400
Speaker 2: because I found it to be fascinating and research here

967
00:57:27,160 --> 00:57:31,920
Speaker 2: t I g h R dot org. There's like a

968
00:57:32,080 --> 00:57:34,600
Speaker 2: five I think it's more more than this, but a

969
00:57:34,640 --> 00:57:39,160
Speaker 2: five part series of just words, you know, written on

970
00:57:39,200 --> 00:57:42,160
Speaker 2: a web page, but it gives you some of the

971
00:57:42,160 --> 00:57:47,160
Speaker 2: most detailed information about flight logs and times and you know,

972
00:57:47,200 --> 00:57:51,240
Speaker 2: what communications were supposed to occur when that flight was

973
00:57:51,280 --> 00:57:53,600
Speaker 2: going to take off on it was on the fifteenth

974
00:57:53,640 --> 00:57:57,680
Speaker 2: of December, right, nineteen forty four. But it just I

975
00:57:57,720 --> 00:58:01,000
Speaker 2: really enjoyed the way I could see a full picture

976
00:58:01,200 --> 00:58:05,880
Speaker 2: right of military personnel that are supposed to log certain

977
00:58:05,920 --> 00:58:08,960
Speaker 2: things with certain groups, and it didn't seem to happen

978
00:58:09,080 --> 00:58:12,520
Speaker 2: that morning, or at least officially it didn't happen, which

979
00:58:12,560 --> 00:58:13,320
Speaker 2: makes you wonder.

980
00:58:14,240 --> 00:58:17,080
Speaker 3: We can't wait to hear your thoughts, folks. Is this

981
00:58:17,160 --> 00:58:20,280
Speaker 3: a case of tragic death compounded by interest in a

982
00:58:20,280 --> 00:58:23,560
Speaker 3: public figure or is there more to the story something

983
00:58:23,680 --> 00:58:26,720
Speaker 3: they don't want you to know? Tell us and also

984
00:58:26,880 --> 00:58:30,680
Speaker 3: tune in later, because fans of JD. Salinger, the time

985
00:58:30,720 --> 00:58:33,280
Speaker 3: has come. We're gonna have our pal Jordan over on

986
00:58:33,360 --> 00:58:36,240
Speaker 3: air in the near future to talk about the catcher

987
00:58:36,280 --> 00:58:42,880
Speaker 3: and the Rye and whether it was a trigger for assassinations.

988
00:58:44,240 --> 00:58:46,320
Speaker 4: That's what a bomb sounds like when it's falling in

989
00:58:46,360 --> 00:58:48,919
Speaker 4: a cartoon. Anyway, Sorry, this is a nose flue, you guys.

990
00:58:49,360 --> 00:58:51,880
Speaker 4: I found this plastic thing laying around my studio, and

991
00:58:51,880 --> 00:58:53,360
Speaker 4: then I was at a music store and I saw

992
00:58:53,400 --> 00:58:54,600
Speaker 4: the same one and I was like, what the heck

993
00:58:54,680 --> 00:58:57,080
Speaker 4: is that music story? That's a nose flut. I'm like,

994
00:58:57,200 --> 00:58:58,640
Speaker 4: how did this end up? In my studio and then

995
00:58:58,680 --> 00:59:00,080
Speaker 4: I looked at a video on how to play it.

996
00:59:00,080 --> 00:59:02,640
Speaker 4: It's a stupid instrument, but you can't make that whistle

997
00:59:02,680 --> 00:59:05,520
Speaker 4: sound like a like a cartoon bomb falling. What do

998
00:59:05,600 --> 00:59:10,080
Speaker 4: you think the stupidest instruments are? How do you feel

999
00:59:10,080 --> 00:59:13,080
Speaker 4: about the trombone? Got any theories about Glenn Miller and

1000
00:59:13,120 --> 00:59:14,600
Speaker 4: then how he may have disappeared?

1001
00:59:14,920 --> 00:59:15,360
Speaker 3: Let us know.

1002
00:59:15,920 --> 00:59:17,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, you can find us all over the place. Hey,

1003
00:59:17,840 --> 00:59:21,400
Speaker 2: we are conspiracy stuff on YouTube. That is primary, right now,

1004
00:59:21,440 --> 00:59:24,120
Speaker 2: go back to YouTube. Make sure you've got your what

1005
00:59:24,240 --> 00:59:27,240
Speaker 2: is it notifications? Now, guys, hit the bell button. Make

1006
00:59:27,280 --> 00:59:29,960
Speaker 2: sure you've got that. We're gonna be putting up videos

1007
00:59:30,000 --> 00:59:34,280
Speaker 2: and more videos with our faces. Hopefully at least three

1008
00:59:34,320 --> 00:59:35,960
Speaker 2: of you are interested in that.

1009
00:59:36,960 --> 00:59:38,880
Speaker 3: Well, there's three of us, so that'd be one.

1010
00:59:38,800 --> 00:59:42,040
Speaker 2: Apiece exactly, and then we'd be in business. You can

1011
00:59:42,080 --> 00:59:45,880
Speaker 2: find us on x on Facebook, also conspiracy stuff, Instagram

1012
00:59:45,960 --> 00:59:48,720
Speaker 2: and TikTok conspiracy Stuff show.

1013
00:59:48,680 --> 00:59:50,080
Speaker 3: And there's other ways to get in touch with us,

1014
00:59:50,120 --> 00:59:53,400
Speaker 3: aren't there. That's right. You can call us any old

1015
00:59:53,440 --> 00:59:56,320
Speaker 3: time day, any old time of night. We've got a number.

1016
00:59:56,400 --> 00:59:58,600
Speaker 3: We keep it simple. Say it with us at home.

1017
00:59:58,840 --> 01:00:03,320
Speaker 3: One eight three three std wytk. You'll hear a hopefully

1018
01:00:03,320 --> 01:00:06,040
Speaker 3: familiar voice. You will hear a beep like so beep

1019
01:00:06,600 --> 01:00:08,920
Speaker 3: or maybe a nose flute effect. Kidding, it's a beep.

1020
01:00:09,200 --> 01:00:11,880
Speaker 3: And when you hear that, you'll have three minutes. Those

1021
01:00:11,920 --> 01:00:14,280
Speaker 3: three minutes are yours. Go nuts, Tell us what's on

1022
01:00:14,320 --> 01:00:17,280
Speaker 3: your mind, Give us leads to new episodes. Let us

1023
01:00:17,320 --> 01:00:19,640
Speaker 3: know if we can use your name and or message

1024
01:00:19,640 --> 01:00:24,240
Speaker 3: on the air. Most importantly, if three minutes doesn't fit,

1025
01:00:24,720 --> 01:00:27,040
Speaker 3: we got your back. Send us the link, send us

1026
01:00:27,080 --> 01:00:29,880
Speaker 3: the footage, send us the videos. Take us to the

1027
01:00:30,000 --> 01:00:32,160
Speaker 3: edge of the rabbit hole. We will do the rest.

1028
01:00:32,160 --> 01:00:33,640
Speaker 3: All you have to do is drop us a line

1029
01:00:33,680 --> 01:00:35,960
Speaker 3: at our good old fashioned email address where.

1030
01:00:35,760 --> 01:00:57,320
Speaker 4: We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

1031
01:00:57,480 --> 01:00:59,520
Speaker 2: Stuff they don't want you to know is a production

1032
01:00:59,640 --> 01:01:03,200
Speaker 2: of Heart Radio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the

1033
01:01:03,200 --> 01:01:06,400
Speaker 2: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your

1034
01:01:06,400 --> 01:01:07,120
Speaker 2: favorite shows.