WEBVTT - Why We Have Too Much Free Will || Ken Sheldon 0:00:00.440 --> 0:00:02.960 Hi everyone, I'm excited to announce that the eight week 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:07.320 online Transcend Course is back. Become certified in learning the 0:00:07.360 --> 0:00:09.840 latest science of human potential and learn how to live 0:00:09.880 --> 0:00:13.680 a more fulfilling, meaningful, creative, and self actualized life. The 0:00:13.720 --> 0:00:16.480 new cohort starts on June twenty fifth and will include 0:00:16.480 --> 0:00:19.400 more than ten hours of recorded lectures, live group Q 0:00:19.520 --> 0:00:22.200 and A sessions with me, small group sessions with our 0:00:22.239 --> 0:00:25.560 world class faculty, a plethora of resources and articles to 0:00:25.560 --> 0:00:29.000 support your learning, and an exclusive workbook of growth challenges 0:00:29.160 --> 0:00:31.760 that will help you overcome your deepest fears and grow 0:00:31.880 --> 0:00:35.040 as a whole person. 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We 0:00:54.960 --> 0:00:56.959 have so much fun in this course and you will 0:00:57.000 --> 0:00:59.920 receive a lot of support along your self actualization journey. 0:01:00.320 --> 0:01:03.720 Just go to transcendcourse dot com to register and enter 0:01:04.080 --> 0:01:10.560 psych podcast psych Podcast In the coupon box, I look 0:01:10.600 --> 0:01:14.319 forward to welcoming you to the transcender community. 0:01:14.440 --> 0:01:16.880 There ain't nobody else making our choices but us. We 0:01:17.000 --> 0:01:21.880 might like to think so, but we're responsible and that's scary, 0:01:22.640 --> 0:01:26.440 but it's also tremendously empowering if you fully grasp it. 0:01:31.280 --> 0:01:34.600 Hello, and welcome to the Psychology Podcast. Today we welcome 0:01:34.680 --> 0:01:37.800 back Ken Sheldon to the show. Ken is a Curator's 0:01:37.840 --> 0:01:42.440 Distinguished Professor of psychological Science at the University of Columbia, Missouri. 0:01:42.720 --> 0:01:45.560 He has written and edited over two hundred academic books, 0:01:45.760 --> 0:01:49.400 scholarly articles, and book chapters. Among these, some of his 0:01:49.480 --> 0:01:53.600 most notable work include Optimal Human Being and self determination 0:01:53.760 --> 0:01:57.440 Theory in the Clinic. His latest book is called Freely Determined. 0:01:57.720 --> 0:02:00.760 What the New Psychology of the Self teach us about 0:02:00.800 --> 0:02:03.720 how to live. In this episode, I talked to Ken 0:02:03.760 --> 0:02:07.680 Sheldon about free will. Instead of questioning its existence, Ken 0:02:07.760 --> 0:02:09.680 is concerned with how we might use free will to 0:02:09.680 --> 0:02:12.480 help us reach our goals. Each person has the capacity 0:02:12.520 --> 0:02:15.079 to make good and bad choices and to learn from 0:02:15.080 --> 0:02:18.440 the past. Although we are unable to know everything about ourselves, 0:02:18.600 --> 0:02:21.400 we can still make informed decisions. Believing that we have 0:02:21.440 --> 0:02:24.959 the ability to choose directly affects our well being. In values, 0:02:25.440 --> 0:02:28.600 we also touch on the topics of neuroscience, self determination, 0:02:29.040 --> 0:02:32.720 and responsibility. I really enjoy this conversation with Ken. I 0:02:32.760 --> 0:02:35.640 find him really insightful, and especially when it comes to 0:02:35.680 --> 0:02:39.480 this quite heated topic within academia, this topic of do 0:02:39.480 --> 0:02:42.000 we have free will or not? I like his perspective. 0:02:42.040 --> 0:02:44.880 I think it's fresh, and I think it really draws 0:02:44.919 --> 0:02:49.239 a lot on psychological science as opposed to maybe more 0:02:49.240 --> 0:02:52.840 metaphysical ideas. Wherever you stand in the free will debate, 0:02:52.880 --> 0:02:55.480 we'd love to hear from you. Please come into the comments, 0:02:55.600 --> 0:02:58.399 and at the very least, I hope this conversation stimulated 0:02:58.720 --> 0:03:02.760 some deep thought and reflection on this very important and 0:03:02.960 --> 0:03:06.480 fascinating topic. So, without further ado, I bring you Ken 0:03:06.840 --> 0:03:09.760 Sheldon again. It's so great to have you on the 0:03:09.800 --> 0:03:11.040 Psychology Podcast. 0:03:12.320 --> 0:03:13.880 Yeah, it's great to be here. I think I was 0:03:14.080 --> 0:03:16.360 with you a few years ago, but things have kind 0:03:16.400 --> 0:03:18.160 of changed a little bit since then, so it'll be 0:03:18.160 --> 0:03:19.840 good to reconnect. Yeah. 0:03:19.840 --> 0:03:22.040 Absolutely, a lot has changed in the world. And the 0:03:22.120 --> 0:03:24.600 last time we talked about your brilliant work on the 0:03:25.120 --> 0:03:29.480 optimal Human. So you wrote this fastening new book called 0:03:29.639 --> 0:03:32.919 Freely Determined. I had to take the cover off because 0:03:33.160 --> 0:03:35.520 it's hard to read it with the cover fallen off. 0:03:35.560 --> 0:03:39.600 But anyway, Freely Determined, congratulations on the publication of this book, 0:03:39.760 --> 0:03:43.080 and it adds some new ideas into this space, this 0:03:43.560 --> 0:03:47.000 free will debate space. I noticed you don't get too 0:03:47.040 --> 0:03:52.880 mirrored down in the philosophy of mind rigorous nuanced debate, 0:03:53.080 --> 0:03:55.320 you know, and you know you don't even stake a position. 0:03:55.520 --> 0:03:57.120 I don't think you anywhere in the book did you 0:03:57.160 --> 0:04:00.360 say I'm a compatibilist. You know. I feel like you 0:04:00.400 --> 0:04:02.480 focus a lot on the psychology of it, But what 0:04:02.640 --> 0:04:05.760 are you within that whole debate? Like, are you a compatibilist? 0:04:05.840 --> 0:04:06.600 Are you something else? 0:04:07.400 --> 0:04:10.480 Probably you would call me a compatibilist. What I'm trying 0:04:10.480 --> 0:04:13.960 to say is that you can have determinism and free 0:04:13.960 --> 0:04:17.039 will at the same time. You just have to recognize 0:04:17.080 --> 0:04:21.320 that human higher mental processes are part of the determining formula. 0:04:21.640 --> 0:04:23.680 You know that what we do weigh up here in 0:04:23.760 --> 0:04:27.160 this abstract mental world that we live in, is part 0:04:27.200 --> 0:04:30.400 of what determines the behaviors that we take. And I 0:04:30.400 --> 0:04:33.040 don't think that it's reducible to any of the lower 0:04:33.120 --> 0:04:37.560 level machinery. The machinery gives us the capacity to do 0:04:37.600 --> 0:04:41.359 what we do, but it doesn't determine what we do. Instead, 0:04:42.040 --> 0:04:46.800 we selves attempting to operate our own minds, taking advantage 0:04:46.800 --> 0:04:49.440 of all this machinery. We have really kind of running 0:04:49.440 --> 0:04:50.960 the show for better or worse. 0:04:51.839 --> 0:04:53.760 This sounds like a debate that you have with your father. 0:04:53.920 --> 0:04:56.760 Is that right, He's a very deterministic view of the situation. 0:04:57.240 --> 0:05:00.280 Yeah. I start off the book talking about these debates 0:05:00.320 --> 0:05:03.200 going you know, way back into my teens with my dad, 0:05:03.240 --> 0:05:06.920 who was a law professor and but also a determinist 0:05:07.120 --> 0:05:09.000 was kind of a funny thing. He didn't think people 0:05:09.040 --> 0:05:11.440 should be punished for their crimes because they couldn't help 0:05:11.480 --> 0:05:13.400 doing them. But I, you know, I had the hardest 0:05:13.400 --> 0:05:18.200 time because his arguments were so undefeatable in some ways. 0:05:18.920 --> 0:05:21.200 And so you could say that my whole career as 0:05:21.240 --> 0:05:25.679 a personality psychologist has been about trying to find ways 0:05:25.720 --> 0:05:28.840 around those arguments or ways to think about them differently. 0:05:29.720 --> 0:05:34.000 That gives us, you know, a viable position as mental 0:05:34.160 --> 0:05:37.640 entities for taking control of our own lives and for 0:05:37.839 --> 0:05:40.440 leading the kind of lives that we think we would like. 0:05:40.960 --> 0:05:41.480 That's just it. 0:05:41.600 --> 0:05:43.720 The leading the lives that we think well, the leading 0:05:43.760 --> 0:05:46.719 the lives that we hopefully would like, because you go 0:05:46.760 --> 0:05:48.920 through a lot sorting out the difference, how to find 0:05:48.920 --> 0:05:50.560 out the difference between what we think we might like 0:05:50.600 --> 0:05:52.080 and what we do like. So I'm going to give 0:05:52.080 --> 0:05:53.400 you a little bit more credit than you just gave 0:05:53.440 --> 0:05:56.800 yourself there. I'm about you know the kind of life right, 0:05:56.960 --> 0:05:59.440 you know, because you go great pains just to for 0:05:59.560 --> 0:06:03.279 us to really look deep inside and figure that out. 0:06:03.560 --> 0:06:05.000 You know, like, there are a lot of things that 0:06:05.040 --> 0:06:08.840 we think we should like. There's even things we might 0:06:08.839 --> 0:06:10.159 think we like and we don't really like. 0:06:11.320 --> 0:06:14.960 Yeah, yeah, it's not easy. No, we're in this funny position. 0:06:15.560 --> 0:06:19.360 Having free will means we are also free to make mistakes. 0:06:19.520 --> 0:06:21.960 We're free to be clueless, We're free to have no 0:06:22.080 --> 0:06:26.040 idea what we really want. We're free to make terrible choices, 0:06:26.320 --> 0:06:28.599 but we're also free to learn from those choices and 0:06:28.640 --> 0:06:31.599 hopefully make better ones in the future. So, you know, 0:06:31.839 --> 0:06:34.800 the book kind of talks about the free will debate 0:06:34.920 --> 0:06:38.000 early on, and it doesn't really take a position, as 0:06:38.000 --> 0:06:41.679 you said, It just concludes that there's reasonable doubt pretty 0:06:41.720 --> 0:06:45.320 good reason for doubting the determinist's perspective. And then it 0:06:45.360 --> 0:06:47.080 moves on to what I think is a more important 0:06:47.160 --> 0:06:50.000 question of Okay, if we do have free will, as 0:06:50.040 --> 0:06:53.480 I'm claiming or saying this probable, how well are we 0:06:53.520 --> 0:06:55.719 able to use it? And that I think is the 0:06:55.880 --> 0:07:00.680 really important question, because we're kind of cut off, you know, 0:07:00.720 --> 0:07:04.760 we're living in this mental world system. To Daniel Cottaman 0:07:04.920 --> 0:07:09.120 called it the tyranny of the prefrontal cortex. We're sort 0:07:09.120 --> 0:07:14.560 of suspended above the machinery above. We have the ability 0:07:14.560 --> 0:07:17.880 to be out of touch with ourselves, and so critical 0:07:17.960 --> 0:07:21.040 question is to get the information, the good information that 0:07:21.080 --> 0:07:24.200 we need to make choices that are going to cause 0:07:24.200 --> 0:07:28.720 our entire organism to thrive, even though we're kind of 0:07:28.760 --> 0:07:32.600 stuck as the conscious representatives of that organism moment to moment, 0:07:32.680 --> 0:07:36.440 and we might be pretty clueless about what's really happening 0:07:36.480 --> 0:07:37.240 inside of us. 0:07:37.840 --> 0:07:41.200 It just seems like you somehow make a distinction between 0:07:42.160 --> 0:07:47.400 system one being, you know, our unconscious mind so to speak, 0:07:47.440 --> 0:07:49.679 that all the things beneath the surface of our conscious 0:07:49.680 --> 0:07:53.080 awareness that are happening automatically kind of keeping the system 0:07:53.160 --> 0:07:58.320 running without much pre thought. It seems like that system 0:07:58.400 --> 0:08:01.480 one you try be a lot less free will to 0:08:01.760 --> 0:08:05.160 than system two, which you talk a lot about the 0:08:05.200 --> 0:08:07.560 symbolic mind, which we'll get to in a second. Yeah, 0:08:07.760 --> 0:08:11.480 and system two being our ability to plan, to error, correct, 0:08:11.920 --> 0:08:15.240 to change course, to maybe influence our system one. You 0:08:15.280 --> 0:08:17.600 know that we can influence our system one by changing habits, 0:08:17.640 --> 0:08:19.760 can't we? You know, it's not like a system one 0:08:19.760 --> 0:08:20.960 is completely impenetrable. 0:08:21.400 --> 0:08:22.560 That's right, that's right. 0:08:22.960 --> 0:08:25.520 So you actually like weigh the two systems differently in 0:08:25.600 --> 0:08:27.600 terms of their free will implications. 0:08:27.800 --> 0:08:30.440 I asked a very excellent question. I haven't thought about 0:08:30.480 --> 0:08:32.839 it quite that way, but I would agree with that 0:08:33.000 --> 0:08:37.920 assessment in the book I adapt A philosopher, Christian Lists. 0:08:38.320 --> 0:08:41.480 He wrote a book in twenty nineteen called Why free 0:08:41.480 --> 0:08:45.000 Will Is Real, and he proposed a definition of free 0:08:45.000 --> 0:08:49.160 will that put the question squarely into my territory as 0:08:49.200 --> 0:08:52.000 a goal researcher. And he said, free will is nothing 0:08:52.040 --> 0:08:56.000 more than the ability to ask yourself what you want, 0:08:56.800 --> 0:09:00.880 call up from your non conscious mind some possibilities for action, 0:09:01.679 --> 0:09:04.720 choose one of them, and then get moving. And so 0:09:04.760 --> 0:09:08.880 that's really a pretty straightforward and kind of intuitive perspective. 0:09:08.880 --> 0:09:10.640 If you think about it. What does it mean for 0:09:10.679 --> 0:09:12.679 an agent to have free will? It can think about 0:09:12.679 --> 0:09:15.360 what it wants, and then it can decide, and then 0:09:15.400 --> 0:09:17.720 it can start trying to get it. And so that's 0:09:17.760 --> 0:09:20.600 what I've been studying my whole career is how people 0:09:20.679 --> 0:09:24.080 set goals and how well do they pursue goals, and 0:09:24.120 --> 0:09:28.440 then how do the goals influence their happiness after they're 0:09:28.520 --> 0:09:32.480 done pursuing them and perhaps achieving them. So I really 0:09:32.559 --> 0:09:36.959 love that definition that a Christian List provided because it 0:09:37.120 --> 0:09:40.920 sort of helped me sidestep these centuries of philosophical debate, 0:09:41.600 --> 0:09:45.840 which I see as pretty impenetrable and very much bogged down. 0:09:45.920 --> 0:09:50.200 Everybody's got their own position, and I love the ability 0:09:50.240 --> 0:09:53.320 to sidestep all that and say, well, simple free will 0:09:53.400 --> 0:09:56.160 is the ability to think about what you want to 0:09:56.240 --> 0:09:59.720 make a choice, and that is a system to process. 0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:03.839 It's there's a lot of conscious stuff going on there 0:10:03.840 --> 0:10:05.720 where we say, well, wait a minute, what do I 0:10:05.760 --> 0:10:08.000 do here? Well, I could do this, that or that? 0:10:08.160 --> 0:10:10.280 What do I want to do? We think about the future, 0:10:10.360 --> 0:10:12.400 what will happen in each case? I think, I like 0:10:12.880 --> 0:10:15.400 option B, I'm going to go for that. And so 0:10:15.480 --> 0:10:18.800 that's not something that's happening in system one, or at 0:10:18.840 --> 0:10:21.760 least not in that same way, because System one is 0:10:21.800 --> 0:10:25.240 more sort of automatic and habitual. So the system too 0:10:25.440 --> 0:10:28.680 is the part of us that is kind of in 0:10:28.720 --> 0:10:32.640 a representational world, living in a symbolic self. We can 0:10:32.679 --> 0:10:36.320 talk about that, making choices between alternatives. 0:10:36.760 --> 0:10:39.439 Yeah, I gotta say, I love your perspective because it's 0:10:39.679 --> 0:10:43.160 very much in the line with my perspective, and I 0:10:43.200 --> 0:10:45.720 have framed it a little bit differently. I've called it 0:10:45.800 --> 0:10:48.280 cybernetic free will, but I think we're talking about the 0:10:48.280 --> 0:10:51.880 same thing, you know, where cybernetic systems that can can 0:10:51.880 --> 0:10:55.000 consciously represent the distance between our starting state and our 0:10:55.000 --> 0:10:58.560 goal state, we can try to consciously develop strategies to 0:10:58.840 --> 0:11:01.160 reduce that gap so we can get to where we 0:11:01.200 --> 0:11:03.360 want to go. I mean, I studied, I studied with 0:11:03.400 --> 0:11:06.400 Herbert Simon, so I came from that whole, that whole 0:11:06.440 --> 0:11:08.280 school of you know, goal stuff. 0:11:08.720 --> 0:11:12.360 I love the cybernetic perspective because it underlies the car 0:11:12.800 --> 0:11:16.720 Shire approach, which is the main correct perspective that I 0:11:16.840 --> 0:11:18.160 use in my goal research. 0:11:19.120 --> 0:11:22.200 Beautiful, Yeah, beautiful. And I don't know if you follow 0:11:22.559 --> 0:11:25.600 my colleague Colin Deyong's work at all on cybernetic Big 0:11:25.640 --> 0:11:26.520 five theory. 0:11:26.640 --> 0:11:28.040 Yeah, yeah, I do know his word. 0:11:28.240 --> 0:11:35.320 But cool, yeah, very interesting. So I believe in that perspective, 0:11:35.360 --> 0:11:37.720 and I would just call it cybernetic free will, as 0:11:37.720 --> 0:11:41.560 distinguished from magic free will. But both of us agree, 0:11:41.600 --> 0:11:44.120 I mean, anyone with a with a with a sane 0:11:44.160 --> 0:11:48.120 mind agrees that that there are we're not outside the 0:11:48.120 --> 0:11:54.000 causal structure of nature, that even our system two processes 0:11:54.440 --> 0:11:58.160 are caused by a long series of chain of things 0:11:58.200 --> 0:12:01.520 that that obviously lay out way outside out of our understanding, 0:12:01.559 --> 0:12:05.000 comprehension knowledge, going very very far back, maybe even to 0:12:05.040 --> 0:12:05.600 the Big Bang. 0:12:05.679 --> 0:12:09.679 Right, I would say that the system two processes are 0:12:09.880 --> 0:12:13.920 enabled by lots of stuff, and they're influenced by lots 0:12:13.920 --> 0:12:16.360 of stuff, a lot of it that we don't know about, 0:12:17.200 --> 0:12:21.760 but that the moment for choice comes, and that the 0:12:21.800 --> 0:12:25.720 conscious experience of that's the one I want, flips the 0:12:25.760 --> 0:12:29.920 brain into an implemental state. It crosses the rubicon, to 0:12:30.120 --> 0:12:34.920 use Peter Golwitzer's terminology. And so I don't think that 0:12:35.040 --> 0:12:40.000 you can predict what the decision of that self of 0:12:40.000 --> 0:12:42.559 the moment is going to be, because it depends on 0:12:42.600 --> 0:12:47.719 what it wants, and it's a sort of not independent 0:12:47.880 --> 0:12:52.880 but somewhat independent process going on in the universe that, 0:12:53.120 --> 0:12:56.520 again is enabled by all the machinery. But I don't 0:12:56.559 --> 0:13:00.080 think it makes any sense to say me agreeing to 0:13:00.120 --> 0:13:03.079 come on your show was predetermined since the Big Bang, 0:13:03.320 --> 0:13:05.680 you know, or anything else that you or I did today. 0:13:06.240 --> 0:13:08.640 It also doesn't make sense to say that we're magically 0:13:08.679 --> 0:13:13.839 outside of all that physical stuff. Again, we're influenced by 0:13:13.880 --> 0:13:17.640 it and enabled by it. But you know, I think 0:13:17.679 --> 0:13:20.640 we have a certain degree of independence from it, and 0:13:20.679 --> 0:13:24.119 that's the independence that allows us to make terrible mistakes. 0:13:24.920 --> 0:13:28.120 We can even commit suicide. No other animal does that, 0:13:28.440 --> 0:13:32.600 you know. I mean, that's the ultimate insult to personal survival. 0:13:32.640 --> 0:13:35.960 We can get so confused that we could take our 0:13:36.000 --> 0:13:39.559 own life, you know, And that might be Actually I 0:13:39.600 --> 0:13:41.959 don't think it is. But the ultimate act of free 0:13:41.960 --> 0:13:46.440 will is just to deny your self existence. But more 0:13:46.520 --> 0:13:49.720 probably as are people who have a lot of emotional 0:13:49.800 --> 0:13:55.240 problems that are controlling their decision making to an unhealthy extent. 0:13:55.679 --> 0:14:00.120 Well, I mean, couldn't someone argue that? Probabilistically speaking, Once 0:14:00.160 --> 0:14:05.680 you start adding up enough factors external, environmental and internal factors, 0:14:05.960 --> 0:14:09.040 suicide ideation starts to get more and more and more 0:14:09.080 --> 0:14:13.040 and more likely. You know, certainly there's there are still causes, 0:14:13.160 --> 0:14:14.839 you know that that allow us to do something. I mean, 0:14:14.880 --> 0:14:17.840 we were in the social sciences. We don't think we 0:14:17.840 --> 0:14:20.080 can't predict things at all, And I just think there 0:14:20.080 --> 0:14:24.640 are some things that have very high correlations, like so strong. 0:14:24.960 --> 0:14:27.760 For instance, if you find someone I just thought this 0:14:27.760 --> 0:14:30.240 an example on the spot, but I was thinking, you 0:14:30.240 --> 0:14:34.000 find someone who's a devout vegetarian or a devout vegan 0:14:34.120 --> 0:14:37.960 for thirty years, you can predict if you go to 0:14:38.000 --> 0:14:40.560 a restaurant, you know they're not going to order that cheeseburger, 0:14:40.760 --> 0:14:43.200 like I guess. The question is if you can predict 0:14:43.200 --> 0:14:45.440 that with pretty much one hundred percent accuracy, are you 0:14:45.480 --> 0:14:47.440 saying that vegan person had no free will in that 0:14:47.480 --> 0:14:50.040 matter to choose the burger? I guess they could have. 0:14:50.520 --> 0:14:53.240 I guess they could have, But they could have. We 0:14:53.280 --> 0:14:55.960 could predict they wouldn't unless they thought of unless they 0:14:56.040 --> 0:14:58.040 knew that we were trying to predict them, and then 0:14:58.080 --> 0:15:00.520 they wanted to consciously defy us, and then maybe that 0:15:00.640 --> 0:15:01.760 was their active free will. 0:15:02.360 --> 0:15:05.000 I don't know, well, I don't know if it's fair 0:15:05.200 --> 0:15:08.360 to say that when we are able to know what 0:15:08.400 --> 0:15:12.440 we want and consistently do it, that we are determined 0:15:12.640 --> 0:15:15.960 to do that thing. It's more than you're able to 0:15:16.040 --> 0:15:19.400 detect and follow our own preferences. And so that person 0:15:19.560 --> 0:15:22.440 knows they're not going to eat meat. It's not like 0:15:22.520 --> 0:15:25.520 they have a compulsion not to eat meat, or maybe 0:15:25.520 --> 0:15:27.640 they sort of do it, maybe it's kind of gross 0:15:27.680 --> 0:15:30.440 to them, But I would put it that they have 0:15:30.520 --> 0:15:34.520 a very strongly internalized value of not eating meat, and 0:15:34.560 --> 0:15:39.520 that to express that value in their choices. And you know, 0:15:39.560 --> 0:15:42.240 if suddenly they were starving and meat was all there was, 0:15:42.320 --> 0:15:47.560 I'm sure they could go against that value or overcome 0:15:47.720 --> 0:15:51.520 that determinism in favor of staying alive. 0:15:52.280 --> 0:15:55.040 Wow. Yeah, Okay, this is a good point. You use 0:15:55.080 --> 0:15:57.360 the word compulsion. You know, a lot of philosophers are 0:15:57.360 --> 0:16:01.840 free will will argue from a compatibilist point of view 0:16:01.840 --> 0:16:04.480 that that we have freedom as long as we're not 0:16:05.280 --> 0:16:08.280 compulsively you know, like there's a number of conditions that 0:16:08.320 --> 0:16:10.120 have to be met, and one of them is, you know, 0:16:10.160 --> 0:16:14.320 not internal distractions that cause us to have compulsions or 0:16:15.040 --> 0:16:18.440 or being externally controlled, like being tied down right and 0:16:18.440 --> 0:16:20.680 being told you must eat meat right or something like 0:16:20.680 --> 0:16:25.400 that. That was a weird example, very weird, very weird. 0:16:25.440 --> 0:16:30.040 But anyway, actually, my grand my grandfather did my father 0:16:30.120 --> 0:16:32.720 in law did that to my daughter one time to 0:16:32.840 --> 0:16:38.520 Thanksgiving dinner. You must eat. She was a vegetarian, quite obnoxious, 0:16:38.600 --> 0:16:40.480 let me tell you. Wow. 0:16:40.640 --> 0:16:42.560 Wow. I hope the young lady did not grow up 0:16:42.560 --> 0:16:44.360 with PDS PTSD from that. 0:16:44.840 --> 0:16:47.520 Well. I would answer this this line of questioning by 0:16:47.760 --> 0:16:52.520 referring to self determination theory, which are underlies most of 0:16:52.520 --> 0:16:56.600 my work. And it makes a distinction between feeling a 0:16:56.680 --> 0:17:01.720 compulsion to do something, calls that introject did motivation, feel 0:17:01.720 --> 0:17:06.280 guilty you're making yourself do it, and internal motivation or 0:17:06.320 --> 0:17:11.280 internalized where you're fully standing behind behind it. And so 0:17:11.760 --> 0:17:15.239 if you are acting with a compulsion, it's true you 0:17:15.320 --> 0:17:18.159 do not feel as free. And that is, you know, 0:17:18.160 --> 0:17:22.200 a long term finding of self determination theory. And when 0:17:22.200 --> 0:17:25.520 you act with that sense of not being free, it 0:17:25.680 --> 0:17:29.000 negatively affects your well being. So it's important to have 0:17:29.040 --> 0:17:32.960 a sense of acting freely. And I take a little 0:17:32.960 --> 0:17:35.040 bit of a stronger position in the book, and I 0:17:35.119 --> 0:17:39.960 say that it's always us making the choices, whether we 0:17:40.080 --> 0:17:43.520 feel compelled to compel to do them or not. We're 0:17:43.560 --> 0:17:45.520 signing off on them. And you know, it's sort of 0:17:45.520 --> 0:17:50.000 that existential perspective where you know that Jean Paul Sart, 0:17:50.119 --> 0:17:53.439 where you're responsible no matter what you reveal who you 0:17:53.480 --> 0:17:57.920 are by your choices. Choices scary. You know, people might 0:17:57.960 --> 0:18:01.880 try to avoid from choice or or escape from freedom 0:18:02.040 --> 0:18:08.199 in Eric Frome's terms. Nevertheless, we're always responsible. And so 0:18:08.760 --> 0:18:10.760 I don't think we're off the hook by saying I 0:18:10.800 --> 0:18:13.800 felt compelled to do that. I think the answer to 0:18:13.840 --> 0:18:17.639 that is, well, that's sort of an immature position to 0:18:17.720 --> 0:18:22.840 be doing your living your life from, and you should 0:18:22.840 --> 0:18:25.359 try to get over that, and with some work, maybe 0:18:25.400 --> 0:18:27.240 some therapy, hopefully you can. 0:18:28.040 --> 0:18:30.920 Yeah, this tying it to self determination theory is fascinating. 0:18:31.080 --> 0:18:33.040 You know, you can hear the skeptics. I can hear 0:18:33.040 --> 0:18:37.400 their voice in my head saying, like, Okay, well, feeling 0:18:37.440 --> 0:18:39.400 like you have free will doesn't mean you have free will, 0:18:39.800 --> 0:18:43.040 like just feeling like you're autonomous. You know, it doesn't 0:18:43.040 --> 0:18:45.280 take away the fact that we don't. I mean, it's 0:18:45.280 --> 0:18:47.719 just a mirage, it's just an illusion. But then you know, 0:18:47.800 --> 0:18:49.360 you come back and you say, I mean, I think 0:18:49.359 --> 0:18:52.000 I could do like the whole artificial intelligence chat between 0:18:52.040 --> 0:18:55.320 you and the other person. Even so, get your let 0:18:55.359 --> 0:18:58.840 me allow you to actually say it. I'm trying to 0:18:58.840 --> 0:19:00.960 predict what you would say right now. Is that any 0:19:01.240 --> 0:19:03.160 from a meta level of this discussion. 0:19:03.520 --> 0:19:05.960 Just rephrase the question real quick for me. No. 0:19:06.080 --> 0:19:08.520 I mean, I'm just seeing a conversation unfold between you 0:19:08.600 --> 0:19:11.359 and a skeptic, or not a skeptic, but a determinist, 0:19:11.400 --> 0:19:14.840 a hard determinist, or even a determinist who a soft 0:19:14.880 --> 0:19:17.679 even a soft determinist, you know within the field who's like, well, 0:19:17.680 --> 0:19:21.159 you know, just feeling like you're free doesn't make you free. 0:19:21.480 --> 0:19:23.720 It's you didn't have any control, You didn't have any 0:19:23.800 --> 0:19:25.320 choice over feeling free anyway. 0:19:25.640 --> 0:19:28.960 Yeah. Yeah, Well that's a funny thing that self determination 0:19:29.119 --> 0:19:32.240 theory is not directly addressed the free will question. It 0:19:32.359 --> 0:19:34.920 is just said that the feeling of freedom is important. 0:19:35.560 --> 0:19:39.280 And so I am taking that additional step, and I'm 0:19:39.320 --> 0:19:44.040 even making the quite radical and it's I'm not fully 0:19:44.119 --> 0:19:47.000 standing behind it, but I think it's plausible. The radical 0:19:47.080 --> 0:19:49.879 argument that free will is an evolved capacity of the 0:19:49.960 --> 0:19:54.480 human mind, again defining this capacity to ask ourselves what 0:19:54.560 --> 0:19:57.720 we want and make a choice and I think that, 0:19:57.880 --> 0:20:02.639 you know, given the complexity of you know, the social 0:20:02.720 --> 0:20:05.480 environments that we face, and you know, we have to 0:20:05.520 --> 0:20:07.119 be able to make it up on the fly and 0:20:07.200 --> 0:20:10.480 figure out what's going on and make decisions constantly. And 0:20:10.520 --> 0:20:13.320 so I think that's the capacity that we evolved, or 0:20:13.320 --> 0:20:16.320 at least to ask ourselves, what do I want? Okay, 0:20:16.359 --> 0:20:20.479 I'll do this. That doesn't mean that there were no 0:20:20.560 --> 0:20:23.320 constraints on what we were doing, you know, of course, 0:20:23.640 --> 0:20:26.000 you know I I was hungry that I might choose 0:20:26.040 --> 0:20:28.199 to eat instead of you know, going to the library 0:20:28.280 --> 0:20:31.720 and checking out the book. But this point you raised about, 0:20:32.320 --> 0:20:35.439 but we don't know why we won't want something. We 0:20:35.480 --> 0:20:38.280 don't know why we made that choice, and so we 0:20:38.320 --> 0:20:42.080 can't be free. I do take exception to that, because 0:20:42.920 --> 0:20:45.840 it makes it so the only free being is an 0:20:45.920 --> 0:20:51.920 omniscient entity that knows everything about itself, and of course 0:20:52.000 --> 0:20:54.440 we are not that. I don't think anything is that. 0:20:55.119 --> 0:20:58.399 If you insist that that's what free will means, then 0:20:58.480 --> 0:21:00.480 I have to agree with you. It does and exist 0:21:00.640 --> 0:21:05.480 because we don't know everything about ourselves, but we know enough, 0:21:05.560 --> 0:21:09.840 hopefully to keep sailing the ship, you know, through the 0:21:09.960 --> 0:21:14.439 seas of our lives, hopefully in some coherent direction towards 0:21:14.600 --> 0:21:18.479 meaningful goals that we that we've chosen. Do we know 0:21:18.560 --> 0:21:21.439 why we've chosen those goals? No, we don't know the 0:21:21.480 --> 0:21:25.719 brain processes that you know, the neurons that summed and 0:21:25.840 --> 0:21:29.200 created that are making that choice. But on the other hand, 0:21:29.240 --> 0:21:31.919 we do know why we made that choice. That's the 0:21:31.960 --> 0:21:34.840 one we thought we wanted, and only we and our 0:21:34.960 --> 0:21:38.119 conscious experience at that moment were in a position to 0:21:38.280 --> 0:21:41.960 make that determination. So it's sort of tricky, you know. 0:21:42.240 --> 0:21:45.520 It's that this is the kind of compatibilism that I'm 0:21:45.520 --> 0:21:46.159 talking about. 0:21:46.920 --> 0:21:48.800 Well, did you did you any chance to watch my 0:21:48.800 --> 0:21:51.400 two part series with Sam Harris on free Will? 0:21:51.920 --> 0:21:53.560 I did not get a chance to, but it's on 0:21:53.600 --> 0:21:55.080 my list for the Christmas break. 0:21:55.640 --> 0:21:58.760 Amazing because we we kind of get at it a 0:21:58.760 --> 0:22:01.240 little bit. We go go at it a little bit. 0:22:01.480 --> 0:22:03.119 You know, he's a friend, but you know we have 0:22:03.160 --> 0:22:06.680 different opinions on this matter, and I can well imagine, Yeah, 0:22:06.720 --> 0:22:09.280 there was this sticking point where you know, he was 0:22:09.280 --> 0:22:11.760 talking about cello and how I love cell and how 0:22:11.760 --> 0:22:13.240 I'd love to teach him how to play cell and 0:22:13.280 --> 0:22:15.000 he said, I have no choice in the matter, I 0:22:15.040 --> 0:22:17.399 do not want to play cello. He's like, I do 0:22:17.520 --> 0:22:20.280 not have any motivation to play cello, so therefore I 0:22:20.320 --> 0:22:22.240 have no free will in playing cello. And I said, 0:22:22.600 --> 0:22:25.720 that's ridiculous. Like we can do things we're not motivated 0:22:25.760 --> 0:22:27.760 to want to do, right, we can. That's the will, 0:22:28.119 --> 0:22:30.520 you know. That's like, you know, we can. You know, 0:22:30.640 --> 0:22:32.919 just because our system one is telling us we're not 0:22:32.960 --> 0:22:34.959 interested in something doesn't mean we can't use system two 0:22:35.040 --> 0:22:37.560 to push through something. It's not like I want to 0:22:37.640 --> 0:22:39.639 motivate to go to the gym every time. But he 0:22:39.720 --> 0:22:41.480 just didn't see it that way, you know, and it 0:22:41.520 --> 0:22:44.520 was a little frustrating, probably for both of us in 0:22:44.560 --> 0:22:45.560 that conversation. 0:22:46.000 --> 0:22:49.439 I can imagine the way I could see Sam coming 0:22:49.480 --> 0:22:53.080 to want to play the cello is if he's got 0:22:53.080 --> 0:22:56.879 this self concept of I'm not a musical guy. Yet 0:22:57.040 --> 0:23:00.720 at some level of him there's a talent circies that 0:23:00.760 --> 0:23:05.040 have been undeveloped, And after his conversation with you, perhaps 0:23:05.040 --> 0:23:08.440 he would have started to think a little bit about, well, 0:23:08.480 --> 0:23:11.040 you know what, that's not such a bad idea. I've 0:23:11.240 --> 0:23:13.439 always kind of half thought it might be fun to 0:23:14.000 --> 0:23:16.800 wear in a musical instrument. And you know, the cello 0:23:16.880 --> 0:23:20.240 is really pretty nice. To start listening to cello pieces, 0:23:20.760 --> 0:23:22.840 and you could come around to wanting to play the cello, 0:23:23.520 --> 0:23:27.920 and it wouldn't be that he was overcoming his system 0:23:27.960 --> 0:23:31.679 one resistance. It would be that he was overcoming his 0:23:32.800 --> 0:23:37.119 inaccurate self concept. So that's one way to sort of 0:23:37.119 --> 0:23:37.879 flip it around. 0:23:38.680 --> 0:23:42.040 Yeah, that's a very interesting reframing. You know, there's a 0:23:42.119 --> 0:23:44.320 quote that I love from William James where he said, 0:23:44.359 --> 0:23:46.679 my first act of free will shall be to believe 0:23:46.680 --> 0:23:48.600 in free will. I'm sure you're familiar. 0:23:48.280 --> 0:23:49.800 With that quote, right, Yeah, yeah, I've heard it. 0:23:50.160 --> 0:23:52.200 I'm sure you have. I'm sure you have. The context 0:23:52.240 --> 0:23:55.840 surrounding that quote is really even more interesting because he 0:23:55.920 --> 0:23:59.399 suffered with depression and even some suicidal thoughts in his life, 0:23:59.720 --> 0:24:03.760 deep deep depression. And apparently after he said that and 0:24:03.840 --> 0:24:09.119 made that deliberation, his whole life changed. And it's fascinating 0:24:09.119 --> 0:24:13.200 to think the extent to which those beliefs matter within 0:24:13.240 --> 0:24:15.680 our own head. I mean, Sam, by the way, Sam 0:24:15.720 --> 0:24:18.320 Harris would be the first one to argue that belief matters. 0:24:18.320 --> 0:24:22.360 I mean, that's why he rails against religions, fundamentalist religions 0:24:22.359 --> 0:24:25.760 that maybe have some dangerous ideologies. You know, obviously the 0:24:25.800 --> 0:24:29.760 contents of our mind can influence greatly how we act 0:24:29.760 --> 0:24:32.879 in the world, in our agency. So it just seems 0:24:32.920 --> 0:24:35.439 like you're arguing in a lot of ways that the 0:24:35.480 --> 0:24:39.200 stories that we tell ourselves with the symbolical mind, that 0:24:39.200 --> 0:24:41.199 that matters for our free will. It sounds like that's 0:24:41.200 --> 0:24:42.680 a big part of what you're saying. Is that right? 0:24:42.960 --> 0:24:47.480 It is because in order to make choices between the 0:24:47.560 --> 0:24:51.360 alternatives that we have called into our minds, there has 0:24:51.440 --> 0:24:53.760 to be a sense of being a person who cares. 0:24:54.680 --> 0:24:58.120 And I call this the symbolic self. I draw from 0:24:58.119 --> 0:25:02.640 some work by Constantine set Katy's and John Scarnsky, on 0:25:02.720 --> 0:25:07.119 the evolution of the symbolic Self, a fascinating nineteen ninety 0:25:07.119 --> 0:25:10.280 seven article, and they said that in order for us 0:25:10.359 --> 0:25:14.520 to interact in this complex social world with language, all 0:25:14.560 --> 0:25:18.880 these other humans, we needed to evolve a sense of 0:25:18.920 --> 0:25:23.040 being a person with a history and preferences. And we 0:25:23.240 --> 0:25:27.520 feel ourselves being that person, even though in a census 0:25:27.760 --> 0:25:30.719 just a hallucination. You know, it's a product of our minds. 0:25:31.600 --> 0:25:35.080 But I'm making the argument that it has top down 0:25:35.240 --> 0:25:39.520 control or some degree or influence at least over the 0:25:39.600 --> 0:25:45.600 choices that get made according to its own preferences. So 0:25:45.640 --> 0:25:48.399 it comes down to this sort of hierarchical perspective on 0:25:48.520 --> 0:25:51.840 the organization of matter that I talk about in one 0:25:51.880 --> 0:25:52.960 of the chapters. 0:25:52.560 --> 0:25:54.560 In reclok And I don't know if you want to 0:25:54.560 --> 0:25:58.800 get into that, but I'll just say briefly that I 0:25:58.840 --> 0:26:03.480 think that evolution and has in the process of life evolving, 0:26:04.280 --> 0:26:08.640 more and more complex levels of control have showed up, 0:26:09.119 --> 0:26:13.480 and each one is been selected for because it regulates 0:26:13.520 --> 0:26:16.920 the level below. Right, So when the first cell had 0:26:16.960 --> 0:26:20.240 to have the capacity to regulate the chemicals coming in 0:26:20.280 --> 0:26:23.719 and out of the cell, the first multicellular organism had 0:26:23.760 --> 0:26:27.320 to have a capacity to regulate how the different cells 0:26:27.359 --> 0:26:28.680 we're interacting with each other. 0:26:29.240 --> 0:26:33.040 Eventually we've got a nervous system that takes control of that. 0:26:33.600 --> 0:26:35.520 And so I follow that logic all the way up, 0:26:35.560 --> 0:26:38.000 and I say, well, you've got a brain, and then 0:26:38.080 --> 0:26:42.640 you've got cognitive processes controlling that brain, and then you've 0:26:42.640 --> 0:26:48.080 got self processes controlling the cognitive processes. So that's where 0:26:48.119 --> 0:26:52.120 our own sort of agency originates. But then it continues 0:26:52.160 --> 0:26:55.560 up from there. We are nested within social relationships and 0:26:56.440 --> 0:27:01.000 social spheres and those can try to control us. And 0:27:01.040 --> 0:27:03.679 that's a lot of what self determination theory is about, 0:27:03.880 --> 0:27:08.240 is how we deal with feeling controlled by other people. 0:27:08.920 --> 0:27:12.320 And it says people with power over us should support 0:27:12.359 --> 0:27:15.720 our autonomy so that we can maximize our sense of 0:27:15.760 --> 0:27:20.600 self determination and get the benefits of being embedded in 0:27:20.640 --> 0:27:24.880 these social relationships instead of just being oppressed by them. 0:27:25.200 --> 0:27:29.440 So it's a really unique, I think, way of framing 0:27:29.560 --> 0:27:32.320 kind of an old idea that goes back to the 0:27:32.440 --> 0:27:37.359 tompt French theorist in the nineteenth century, the hierarchy of 0:27:37.359 --> 0:27:41.520 the sciences, And this is something I believe pretty strongly 0:27:41.680 --> 0:27:46.280 that each new level of organization builds upon the rest, 0:27:46.440 --> 0:27:51.159 but it is somewhat independent of what's below, given its 0:27:51.240 --> 0:27:55.359 ability to regulate what happens down below. So if I 0:27:55.400 --> 0:27:57.639 decide to go off for a run this morning, I 0:27:57.640 --> 0:28:00.920 don't usually do that, but I suppose I did. Suddenly 0:28:01.000 --> 0:28:03.399 my all physical stuff in my body is having to 0:28:03.480 --> 0:28:07.359 deal with the stress of running, the physiology, and that 0:28:07.440 --> 0:28:11.720 was all determined by a conscious decision I made that morning. 0:28:12.119 --> 0:28:14.560 And so the hard headed skeptic is going to say, well, 0:28:14.560 --> 0:28:16.880 you don't know why you chose to run and I 0:28:16.920 --> 0:28:20.240 could say, well, I don't know where that idea came from, 0:28:20.320 --> 0:28:23.640 but I liked it and I picked it. That's why 0:28:23.800 --> 0:28:24.400 I ran. 0:28:29.280 --> 0:28:31.280 In kind of a nutshell. You're just saying you don't 0:28:31.359 --> 0:28:36.080 like reductionism. You don't you don't like taking the mind 0:28:36.240 --> 0:28:37.359 and reducing it to the brain. 0:28:37.400 --> 0:28:41.800 Even Yeah, I think reductionist. Reductionism is hugely important, and 0:28:41.840 --> 0:28:45.440 it's taught us so much. But I think it's mainly 0:28:45.640 --> 0:28:49.320 useful when the system is breaking down. You say, oh, 0:28:48.800 --> 0:28:52.360 they have sickle cell anemia. What's wrong? You know the 0:28:52.360 --> 0:28:55.360 blood systems I'm working, Well, the cells that compose that 0:28:55.400 --> 0:29:00.320 system are misshaped, or a person. I talk about the 0:29:00.320 --> 0:29:04.320 example of Charles Whitman in the sixties who shot a 0:29:04.360 --> 0:29:07.360 bunch of people from a bell tower in Texas and 0:29:07.400 --> 0:29:10.160 it turned out he had a tumor in his brain. Well, 0:29:10.440 --> 0:29:14.360 he wasn't able to make a good free choice because 0:29:14.360 --> 0:29:18.440 his brain didn't support it. And so I would say 0:29:18.440 --> 0:29:22.840 that reductionism mainly works when you're trying to explain why 0:29:22.880 --> 0:29:26.000 the system has failed. But then if you're going to 0:29:26.040 --> 0:29:29.640 talk about what the system does, you know, then you 0:29:29.720 --> 0:29:31.960 need to know what's going on at the higher level. 0:29:32.280 --> 0:29:34.360 When I drive out to the interstate, I either go 0:29:34.480 --> 0:29:38.480 left or right. None of my machinery determines which way 0:29:38.480 --> 0:29:42.400 it is. It's my intention to go to either Saint 0:29:42.440 --> 0:29:47.680 Louis or Kansas City. That's controlling my machinery in that case. 0:29:48.400 --> 0:29:52.040 Yeah, I assume you've read the book Freedom Evolves by 0:29:52.120 --> 0:29:52.880 Daniel Dennett. 0:29:53.440 --> 0:29:59.000 I have leafed through. Its pretty dense stuff, but a 0:29:59.000 --> 0:30:00.000 lot of good, good idea. 0:30:00.920 --> 0:30:06.040 It seems very very compatible with your argument, very compatible 0:30:06.080 --> 0:30:08.479 with the argument, except you put up more of a 0:30:08.480 --> 0:30:12.200 psychological machinery around it. I mean, he just argues that 0:30:12.240 --> 0:30:14.760 we have a lot of these abilities, that abilities that 0:30:14.760 --> 0:30:17.040 we evolve that give us a free will worth wanting. 0:30:17.600 --> 0:30:20.520 And that's essentially what you're saying. But you are able 0:30:20.520 --> 0:30:22.239 to flesh that out in a lot of ways with 0:30:22.600 --> 0:30:28.040 neuroscience and with self determination theory. Your your groundbreaking research 0:30:28.080 --> 0:30:31.400 and goals. Yeah, your work, Your work has really been 0:30:31.840 --> 0:30:34.800 very impactful in the field of positive psychology, field of 0:30:34.840 --> 0:30:38.240 psychology overall. It's it's certainly influenced my work as well, 0:30:38.280 --> 0:30:41.360 I should say, and the work you've done, the breath 0:30:41.360 --> 0:30:44.680 of it on goals and as well as well being, 0:30:45.800 --> 0:30:48.440 and particularly the link between goals and well being is 0:30:48.480 --> 0:30:50.040 kind of your niche, that's. 0:30:50.120 --> 0:30:51.800 That's your thing. 0:30:51.880 --> 0:30:54.400 Yeah, I know, I see you, I see you, I 0:30:54.440 --> 0:30:57.000 see you, I get you. And it's really made a 0:30:57.040 --> 0:30:59.840 substantial impact. So to be in the field of psychology 0:30:59.880 --> 0:31:01.840 to be able to link that to the free will debate, 0:31:01.880 --> 0:31:05.320 it just was super fascinating to me to read. I 0:31:05.360 --> 0:31:07.240 will say one of the things that was super fastating 0:31:07.280 --> 0:31:09.560 for me to read as well was your discussion of 0:31:09.600 --> 0:31:14.000 the default mode network, because I've been studying the default 0:31:14.000 --> 0:31:18.080 mode network with my colleagues and linking it to creative thinking, 0:31:18.800 --> 0:31:23.320 and you don't make that direct link, but you have 0:31:23.400 --> 0:31:25.240 a chapter on the default mode network, and you do 0:31:25.280 --> 0:31:28.600 have a separate chapter on creativity, and so maybe we 0:31:28.640 --> 0:31:31.160 can make that link together right now more explicit. 0:31:31.680 --> 0:31:34.480 Well, I'm actually working on a review chapter right now 0:31:34.520 --> 0:31:40.320 with a self determination theory neuroscientist named Google Lee, where 0:31:40.360 --> 0:31:43.320 we're making that connection. We're asking the question, how do 0:31:43.360 --> 0:31:46.920 we decide what to do next? And we're outlining that 0:31:47.000 --> 0:31:50.840 question using control theory and the cybernetic perspective, but we're 0:31:50.880 --> 0:31:55.520 also looking at the brain processes and we're concluding that 0:31:55.880 --> 0:32:01.560 there's interplay between central executive network, salience network and the 0:32:01.560 --> 0:32:05.920 default mode network, or there's back and forth between the 0:32:06.560 --> 0:32:11.880 prefernal cortex and consciousness of question arises as arises say 0:32:11.880 --> 0:32:14.040 in a creator's mind when they're trying to solve a 0:32:14.120 --> 0:32:16.560 problem and we don't know the answer to that question, 0:32:16.680 --> 0:32:20.600 but the fact that it was a conscious experience broadcasts 0:32:20.640 --> 0:32:24.680 it to the broader or lower mind and starts to 0:32:24.720 --> 0:32:27.680 work on it at a non conscious level. And the 0:32:28.480 --> 0:32:31.640 mode network processes are a big part of that. And 0:32:31.680 --> 0:32:35.640 then the salience network at one point sort of notices WHOA, 0:32:35.800 --> 0:32:39.440 some thought that's just sort of wandered across the default 0:32:39.480 --> 0:32:44.320 mode view screen. It says that's important, and then we say, whoa, 0:32:44.320 --> 0:32:48.200 And then we can make a choice and maybe realize 0:32:48.240 --> 0:32:50.720 that we need to completely change what we've been doing 0:32:50.800 --> 0:32:53.320 in our life. So in that last chapter in the book, 0:32:53.360 --> 0:32:57.720 I make a connection between the process of changing your 0:32:57.720 --> 0:33:00.760 life adopting a whole new set of goals, and the 0:33:00.840 --> 0:33:11.120 creative process using that four stage model of WALLAS of preparation, preparation, incubation, illumination, elaboration. 0:33:11.640 --> 0:33:14.200 And so yes, I am kind of trying to link 0:33:14.240 --> 0:33:17.520 those two chapters right now in this review article that 0:33:17.560 --> 0:33:20.640 we're writing. It is pretty exciting because I think it's 0:33:20.680 --> 0:33:22.680 the original stuff that we're pulling together. 0:33:23.280 --> 0:33:25.120 That's great. Let me know if I can help it all. 0:33:25.400 --> 0:33:26.640 You know, if you just won't even talk to me 0:33:26.640 --> 0:33:29.200 about the research we've conducted on the topic, it might 0:33:29.240 --> 0:33:30.000 be beneficial. 0:33:30.240 --> 0:33:33.520 You know, I would love to send you a just 0:33:33.560 --> 0:33:35.920 if you wouldn't mind taking a quick read of this 0:33:36.040 --> 0:33:37.240 draft when we finish. 0:33:37.080 --> 0:33:39.080 It, Yeah, because i'd love to. 0:33:39.360 --> 0:33:41.760 It could have a lot of holes then your expertise 0:33:41.800 --> 0:33:44.040 would be great to check them. 0:33:44.120 --> 0:33:46.920 I'd love to. I'd love to. Yeah, I'm so excited 0:33:46.920 --> 0:33:49.240 that you're working in that. You know, we have listeners 0:33:49.280 --> 0:33:51.480 and might not be familiar with anything we're really talking 0:33:51.480 --> 0:33:54.080 about right now, So let's talk a little about what 0:33:54.200 --> 0:33:57.320 the default mode network. What the world are we talking about. 0:33:57.440 --> 0:34:00.920 There seems to be a particular netbrain network that cognitive 0:34:00.920 --> 0:34:04.960 neuroscientists discovered by accident because they didn't really seem to 0:34:05.040 --> 0:34:07.360 care much about what people were doing in the fMRI 0:34:07.560 --> 0:34:09.760 machine when they weren't doing the task that was assigned 0:34:09.760 --> 0:34:11.759 to them, and it seemed to be like, oh wow, 0:34:11.760 --> 0:34:14.520 maybe there's some value to the inner stream of consciousness, 0:34:14.560 --> 0:34:17.480 as William James would put it. How would you characterize 0:34:17.480 --> 0:34:19.680 the major functions of the default midle network, because there's 0:34:19.719 --> 0:34:21.160 a lot of like kind of debate in the field 0:34:21.200 --> 0:34:23.919 about exactly what it does well. 0:34:23.920 --> 0:34:26.640 It does a bunch of different things, that's true. I 0:34:26.640 --> 0:34:30.600 think it's involved both in executive control and in mind wandering, 0:34:31.400 --> 0:34:36.080 which makes it hard to disentangle all the different stuff. 0:34:36.640 --> 0:34:39.560 But I think of it as when we're just sort 0:34:39.560 --> 0:34:42.960 of not doing anything in particular. We don't have a 0:34:43.000 --> 0:34:46.680 cybernetic tope loop, we don't have a goal that's active 0:34:46.680 --> 0:34:49.560 in our mind. We're not doing something. We're just hanging 0:34:49.560 --> 0:34:52.960 out in our mind during sort of a free flowing state. 0:34:53.920 --> 0:34:56.280 And so, you know, we used to think that didn't 0:34:56.360 --> 0:34:59.480 mean anything, it was just mind wandering, But no, we 0:34:59.560 --> 0:35:05.520 think default activity is critical for sort of processing what's 0:35:05.560 --> 0:35:08.920 going on and connecting things up with our goals and 0:35:09.000 --> 0:35:14.000 motives and linking memories in spontaneous ways that can arise 0:35:14.080 --> 0:35:19.200 to consciousness and sometimes can present us with the Aha 0:35:19.360 --> 0:35:22.520 moment that this is the solution to the question or 0:35:22.560 --> 0:35:26.160 the problem I've been trying to solve. So the default 0:35:26.200 --> 0:35:30.120 mode network, I think, arguably is us, you know, when 0:35:30.160 --> 0:35:35.040 we're not doing anything, as compared to the focused mode 0:35:35.080 --> 0:35:38.520 when we're trying to solve a problem, but a lot 0:35:38.520 --> 0:35:40.680 of times we're not doing that. We're just kind of 0:35:41.000 --> 0:35:44.200 zoning along, but that doesn't mean we're not doing anything. 0:35:45.040 --> 0:35:47.960 It's kind of like dreaming, but at a more conscious level, 0:35:47.960 --> 0:35:53.440 we're kind of processing, making connections, wondering stuff and remembering 0:35:53.560 --> 0:35:57.439 things and reflecting on what somebody said the other day 0:35:57.480 --> 0:36:02.319 and maybe feeling guilty because we haven't connected with our 0:36:02.360 --> 0:36:05.440 sick friend that we heard about, and the friend wonders 0:36:05.480 --> 0:36:08.359 about us and the bugs a little bit, and then 0:36:08.640 --> 0:36:12.360 we realized, Hey, I saw this great cake baking recipe, 0:36:12.400 --> 0:36:14.560 and I know I could bake that cake for my 0:36:14.640 --> 0:36:18.399 friend and take it to him or heart. So it's 0:36:18.480 --> 0:36:24.600 the default mode. Network is the part between action, but 0:36:24.680 --> 0:36:28.480 it's critical because it provides a lot of the spark 0:36:28.600 --> 0:36:33.720 to return to the next action, to adopt the next goal, 0:36:34.200 --> 0:36:37.120 and we don't know a lot about that process, to 0:36:37.120 --> 0:36:42.600 be honest, it's surprising how little personality and cybernetic models 0:36:42.600 --> 0:36:45.480 have looked at that. Like even the Carver and Shire 0:36:45.600 --> 0:36:49.560 model of goals doesn't say where did the goals come from? 0:36:49.600 --> 0:36:53.000 How do we get that goal? It just said we 0:36:53.080 --> 0:36:57.880 picked the action. That's that's a determined by the higher 0:36:57.960 --> 0:37:00.400 level goals in our system. Right, I want to be 0:37:00.480 --> 0:37:03.480 a compassionate person, so I will picking to do that 0:37:04.080 --> 0:37:06.960 you know, expresses my compassion. But you know, a lot 0:37:06.960 --> 0:37:10.160 of times we're doing something new, we're waning it and 0:37:10.200 --> 0:37:14.120 we don't have any big pre existing idea, but we're 0:37:14.160 --> 0:37:17.000 still figuring out what to do next. I think the 0:37:17.000 --> 0:37:19.040 default mode has a lot to do with that. But 0:37:19.400 --> 0:37:21.600 there's a lot to be figured out with that as well. 0:37:21.640 --> 0:37:24.680 And I'm just starting to learn about the neuroscience of 0:37:24.719 --> 0:37:25.040 all this. 0:37:25.920 --> 0:37:28.400 Yeah, it's tricky stuff. One thing I do want to 0:37:28.400 --> 0:37:29.840 double click on is I do think a lot of 0:37:29.840 --> 0:37:32.480 the functions of the default mode network are to form 0:37:32.520 --> 0:37:35.239 the core of human existence. That's how I freezed it, 0:37:35.280 --> 0:37:37.920 and I do think that's true. I think that the 0:37:37.920 --> 0:37:41.640 default Moile network can couple and decouple with the executive 0:37:41.640 --> 0:37:45.320 attention network to various degrees depending on the different stages 0:37:45.360 --> 0:37:48.680 of the creative process. Yeah, for different you know, sometimes 0:37:48.960 --> 0:37:51.640 we can focus intensely on our daydreams so we can 0:37:51.680 --> 0:37:56.520 have positive as my mentor Dromo Singer called positive constructive daydreaming. 0:37:56.920 --> 0:37:59.840 Is probably when the default mode is linked and coupled 0:38:00.200 --> 0:38:05.200 our deep attention resources or working memory resources. So yeah, 0:38:05.200 --> 0:38:07.280 these things could be all these different kind of brain networks. 0:38:07.320 --> 0:38:09.000 You also mentioned the salience network, which I think is 0:38:09.040 --> 0:38:11.040 one of the most underrated brain networks. I'm glad that 0:38:11.080 --> 0:38:13.520 you mentioned the salience network. That seems to be really 0:38:13.560 --> 0:38:17.399 important for creativity to be able to see what may 0:38:17.480 --> 0:38:21.799 count as a creative solution in the first place. So 0:38:21.840 --> 0:38:23.640 I think that's wonderful that you brought that in. But 0:38:23.719 --> 0:38:27.680 all these kinds of brain networks couple and decouple constantly. 0:38:27.760 --> 0:38:29.920 You know that it's where it's fall and back and forth, 0:38:30.000 --> 0:38:31.840 you know, and and so you know, the brains are 0:38:31.880 --> 0:38:32.720 constantly dynamic. 0:38:32.840 --> 0:38:33.040 You know. 0:38:33.360 --> 0:38:34.920 You know all this, But I think we need to 0:38:34.920 --> 0:38:37.680 explain this to to our listeners. You know, But how 0:38:37.719 --> 0:38:40.440 it all unpinges on the free will debate. It's still 0:38:40.480 --> 0:38:44.600 not completely clear to me because someone can say that, 0:38:45.320 --> 0:38:47.840 you know, all this is is maybe you're talking about 0:38:48.000 --> 0:38:52.520 human will, but it's not free will, because a lot 0:38:52.600 --> 0:38:55.680 of people narrowly view free will as could you have 0:38:55.880 --> 0:38:59.720 done differently in that specific if you rewinded the tape 0:39:00.280 --> 0:39:03.440 at that specific precise moment, would you ever have acted 0:39:03.480 --> 0:39:07.799 differently than and you're talking a lot about the things 0:39:07.840 --> 0:39:11.120 we do after the moment to change the course of 0:39:11.160 --> 0:39:13.760 our future, you know, because I've called it the imagination network. 0:39:13.800 --> 0:39:15.880 I've called the default mode the imagination network because it 0:39:16.560 --> 0:39:19.680 can impact our future. But does it really impact the 0:39:19.719 --> 0:39:20.520 notion of free will? 0:39:20.520 --> 0:39:23.840 Though? Yeah, well again I'm not arguing for magic free 0:39:23.840 --> 0:39:27.160 will independent of all the machioney. I think that we 0:39:27.280 --> 0:39:32.440 have this mental ability to take stock of who we are, 0:39:32.560 --> 0:39:35.480 where we are, and what we want and make some decisions, 0:39:36.080 --> 0:39:39.720 and could we have done differently? I think that almost 0:39:39.800 --> 0:39:44.040 might be a nonsensical question, because you, first of all, 0:39:44.080 --> 0:39:46.360 you can't go back to that moment and say, okay, 0:39:46.400 --> 0:39:50.120 do something different or not. It's already happened, and so 0:39:50.200 --> 0:39:53.080 everything that's already happened has already happened. So I don't 0:39:53.560 --> 0:39:55.680 to ask could you have done differently? Is to ask 0:39:56.080 --> 0:39:59.560 could the universe have turned out any differently at this moment? 0:40:00.400 --> 0:40:03.400 Since it began four billion years ago? It's kind of 0:40:03.440 --> 0:40:07.080 the same question. I think it's more useful to ask 0:40:07.520 --> 0:40:10.160 could I have done differently? And if you think about it, 0:40:10.200 --> 0:40:13.440 a lot of times you were poised between two or 0:40:13.440 --> 0:40:18.160 three almost equally attractive options, and you know, you picked one, 0:40:18.480 --> 0:40:21.759 and maybe you later realize you wished you hadn't done that, 0:40:21.840 --> 0:40:24.680 and so you would pick differently the next time. But 0:40:24.960 --> 0:40:28.160 at the time, you picked the thing that looked most appealing, 0:40:28.760 --> 0:40:30.799 And so why would you have picked differently from that? 0:40:30.840 --> 0:40:34.319 You picked the thing that you wanted? And so why 0:40:34.480 --> 0:40:37.120 would it be free will to think that you have 0:40:37.200 --> 0:40:40.760 the capacity to pick what you don't want? And actually, 0:40:41.440 --> 0:40:43.319 now that I think about it, that's part of what 0:40:43.360 --> 0:40:46.040 I'm saying free will is we have the capacity to 0:40:46.040 --> 0:40:52.960 pick what we don't want. Yeah, for you won't Yeah, 0:40:53.480 --> 0:40:56.000 I mean we can make bad decisions. We can look. 0:40:56.040 --> 0:40:58.560 The last chapter of my book talks about a woman 0:40:58.600 --> 0:41:01.920 who made a bad, weird decision decades ago and it's 0:41:01.920 --> 0:41:06.600 been miserable ever since, until finally her misery. Misery inspired 0:41:06.640 --> 0:41:10.479 her to start asking the questions what do I really want? 0:41:10.680 --> 0:41:14.400 Where her non conscious mind started to provide her with 0:41:14.440 --> 0:41:19.520 some alternatives until she was finally able to pick something different. 0:41:20.360 --> 0:41:22.560 And I think that's all you can really ask for, 0:41:23.239 --> 0:41:27.520 you know, an agent regarding free will, the ability to 0:41:27.640 --> 0:41:31.200 pick what we think we want and learn from our mistakes. 0:41:32.000 --> 0:41:33.759 From mistakes, well, that that takes us out of the 0:41:33.840 --> 0:41:37.520 realm of how a lot of philosophers define narrowly they defined. 0:41:38.080 --> 0:41:40.120 It's like, it's like they can't think of free will 0:41:40.160 --> 0:41:42.800 outside of the rewind the tape thing. Do you know 0:41:42.840 --> 0:41:43.239 what I mean? 0:41:43.760 --> 0:41:47.080 Yeah, I don't they're rewind the tape thing, doesn't It's 0:41:47.120 --> 0:41:49.600 a thought experiment that I don't think is very co here. 0:41:52.040 --> 0:41:54.480 Can can drop on the call it right there. 0:41:54.600 --> 0:41:56.680 I mean, I'm probably just not getting you. 0:41:56.640 --> 0:41:58.640 Should have snapped, you should have snapped with that and 0:41:58.640 --> 0:42:01.439 get a little sassy, get a little sassy over there. 0:42:03.520 --> 0:42:05.839 Well you know, no, I hear you, brother, I hear you, brother. 0:42:06.719 --> 0:42:08.760 I'm a big fan of the a lot of Daniel 0:42:08.760 --> 0:42:11.440 Dennet's writings on the abilities that are they give us 0:42:11.480 --> 0:42:13.680 a free will worth One time, I think a lot 0:42:13.719 --> 0:42:17.200 of things I was not thinking, Yeah it's so okay, 0:42:17.320 --> 0:42:21.120 Well you'll see a great friend, a great friend there 0:42:21.160 --> 0:42:24.200 of ideas, you know, so I've always yeah, I'm I'm 0:42:24.239 --> 0:42:25.960 a big I'm a big fan of those ideas. I'm 0:42:25.960 --> 0:42:29.720 a big fan of of you making the case that 0:42:29.800 --> 0:42:32.120 a lot of the kinds of system two functions we're 0:42:32.120 --> 0:42:34.400 talking about are things that they are free will is 0:42:34.400 --> 0:42:37.239 worth wanting in the Daniel Dennitts terms, but in your terms, 0:42:37.280 --> 0:42:39.479 you're saying there's You're straight up saying that's free will. 0:42:39.520 --> 0:42:42.000 And so that's fascinating because you you're just like straight 0:42:42.080 --> 0:42:44.040 up You're like no, You're like, no, we got more 0:42:44.040 --> 0:42:45.120 free will than you realize. 0:42:46.200 --> 0:42:50.080 We're doomed to have free will. Yeah, that's a funny 0:42:50.080 --> 0:42:53.000 way to flat it around. But that's that's the existentialist 0:42:53.040 --> 0:42:57.160 in me. You know, that's saying, yeah, there ain't nobody 0:42:57.160 --> 0:42:59.560 else making our choices but us. We might like to 0:42:59.600 --> 0:43:05.000 think so, but we're responsible. And that's scary, but it's 0:43:05.040 --> 0:43:08.360 also tremendously empowering if you fully grasp it. 0:43:09.440 --> 0:43:12.640 Hmm. Yeah, And I know that's another major theme of 0:43:12.640 --> 0:43:16.879 your work, is the link between freedom and responsibility. I 0:43:16.920 --> 0:43:22.120 assume you've read Roll May's stuff. Yeah, yeah, in the sixties. 0:43:22.640 --> 0:43:26.520 I'm an old humanist going from way back, mostly a rogarian, 0:43:26.680 --> 0:43:30.399 but yeah, some of the other folks as well, I've read. 0:43:31.040 --> 0:43:35.080 Yeah, roll May wrote beautifully about about that interplay, and 0:43:35.120 --> 0:43:37.200 I think I love that you brought in, brought that in, 0:43:37.360 --> 0:43:39.680 you know, to this this whole debate. And it's very 0:43:39.680 --> 0:43:42.120 interesting because you have like a whole chapter the problem 0:43:42.200 --> 0:43:46.480 of too much freedom, the chapter that's the chapter you have. 0:43:47.000 --> 0:43:49.560 So it's like, it's interesting because there's there's kind of 0:43:49.640 --> 0:43:52.399 different continuums that one can make in this argument. One 0:43:52.400 --> 0:43:55.000 could say, a lot of people, a lot of philosophers 0:43:55.000 --> 0:43:57.560 of mine, say, especially determined to say, look, we have 0:43:57.640 --> 0:43:59.360 a heck of a lot less free will than we 0:43:59.440 --> 0:44:02.000 realize we have. Then there are sums like, actually, we 0:44:02.080 --> 0:44:04.720 have more than we realize. But then I think you're 0:44:04.880 --> 0:44:07.840 even to the right of that continuum and saying we 0:44:07.960 --> 0:44:11.680 have so much free will that we don't know what 0:44:11.719 --> 0:44:14.919 to do with it. In a way, do you think 0:44:15.000 --> 0:44:16.480 do you and this might be controversial, but do you 0:44:16.480 --> 0:44:18.879 think like it's easier being a determinist? Like if you're 0:44:18.880 --> 0:44:21.640 a hard determinist, do you feel like you're evading your responsibility, 0:44:21.760 --> 0:44:22.400 your destiny? 0:44:23.239 --> 0:44:26.319 You know, I think that hard determinism is seductive. 0:44:26.480 --> 0:44:27.320 It's a deep question. 0:44:28.280 --> 0:44:33.040 It's seductive because it seems like the most scientifically rigorous 0:44:33.080 --> 0:44:35.800 position to take, and it's the position that goes along 0:44:35.840 --> 0:44:41.040 with the scientific ideal of putting our subjective wants and 0:44:41.160 --> 0:44:44.759 values aside and being guided by the facts. Right, And 0:44:44.840 --> 0:44:47.680 so we have this wishful thinking of wanting free will, 0:44:47.760 --> 0:44:52.120 but as true scientists, we have to put that aside. 0:44:52.880 --> 0:44:55.799 I disagree with that. I think when we do that, 0:44:55.840 --> 0:44:59.239 it's bad for us because we're accepting an idea that 0:44:59.360 --> 0:45:03.120 isn't true and we're going to negatively impact our own functioning. 0:45:03.680 --> 0:45:07.160 Quite a bit of research, experimental research on what happens 0:45:07.640 --> 0:45:11.799 when you convince people that determinism is true, and they 0:45:11.840 --> 0:45:18.680 become less moral, less able to self regulate, less pro social, 0:45:19.440 --> 0:45:22.920 number they become numb to pain. So if you convince 0:45:23.040 --> 0:45:26.840 people yeah, I'm serious the code, I. 0:45:26.880 --> 0:45:28.400 Want to ask you a follow up question to that, 0:45:28.480 --> 0:45:32.000 because is has anyone ever done the study on different 0:45:32.040 --> 0:45:35.239 philosophers and psychologists and what they believe in their actual morality? 0:45:35.480 --> 0:45:38.040 Like that? From that level, wouldn't that be interesting? Wouldn't 0:45:38.040 --> 0:45:41.400 that be an interesting study like are hard determinists more immoral? 0:45:42.560 --> 0:45:42.799 You know? 0:45:43.040 --> 0:45:46.000 I would be a fascinating study. And a version that 0:45:46.040 --> 0:45:49.640 I've thought about it is does an evolutionary psychologist who 0:45:49.680 --> 0:45:53.719 thinks that men evolve to be philanderers have less ability 0:45:53.800 --> 0:46:01.440 to control their right unfortunate choices with their female graduate students? 0:46:02.000 --> 0:46:06.000 You know, I think free will can determinism? Can you know, 0:46:06.160 --> 0:46:09.720 make you think you're not responsible. I had to do that. Yeah, 0:46:09.960 --> 0:46:13.839 so that's another you're right besides the well being hit 0:46:14.040 --> 0:46:16.920 that you take with those beliefs. Yeah, I think it's 0:46:16.960 --> 0:46:18.040 a dangerous belief. 0:46:19.000 --> 0:46:21.280 Wow, you even go so far to say that that 0:46:21.280 --> 0:46:22.640 that it's a dangerous belief. 0:46:23.440 --> 0:46:24.960 You know, I don't care. I'm getting to the end 0:46:25.000 --> 0:46:26.560 of my career. I'll just say what I think. 0:46:26.640 --> 0:46:31.680 And you have no fucks to give about for you, 0:46:31.760 --> 0:46:35.480 about for you, Ken, Ken's like I got zeros to 0:46:35.560 --> 0:46:38.359 give in the in this debate, it's you. No, I 0:46:38.400 --> 0:46:40.600 hear you. The idea, whether or not it's a dangerous 0:46:40.600 --> 0:46:42.880 idea is is? I can again, I can hear the 0:46:43.640 --> 0:46:46.399 voice in my head of the hard determinists saying, because 0:46:46.400 --> 0:46:48.200 I've debated so much of them, so I can kind 0:46:48.200 --> 0:46:51.040 of like hear what their counter to everything you say is. 0:46:51.520 --> 0:46:53.640 And I think they would say that it makes them 0:46:54.040 --> 0:46:59.360 more compassionate because you realize that people, even in their 0:46:59.400 --> 0:47:03.160 most poor choices, really didn't have a choice ultimately, ultimately, 0:47:03.920 --> 0:47:06.640 and that that should give us all more more compassion 0:47:06.680 --> 0:47:09.160 for each other, not less. I can hear them saying 0:47:09.160 --> 0:47:11.120 that as a rebuttal to what you're saying. 0:47:11.080 --> 0:47:12.840 Yeah, and that's kind of what my dad was saying. 0:47:12.920 --> 0:47:16.239 It's a bit of a liberal perspective of you, you know, 0:47:16.520 --> 0:47:19.320 forgive people of their crimes if they came from a terrible, 0:47:19.600 --> 0:47:23.319 you know background. And I don't think I don't think 0:47:23.360 --> 0:47:27.040 we can really afford to say that because the question 0:47:27.080 --> 0:47:30.719 of who is really off the hook versus isn't it's 0:47:30.880 --> 0:47:34.479 very tricky. I think you're only really off the hook 0:47:34.520 --> 0:47:38.280 if you've got some organic problems. And that's once again, 0:47:38.360 --> 0:47:41.320 determinism only makes sense when there's a problem down in 0:47:41.360 --> 0:47:45.400 the machinery, or reductionism only makes sense. So if your 0:47:45.440 --> 0:47:48.040 machinery is off, then okay, you're off the hook. But 0:47:48.120 --> 0:47:51.680 if you're just making bad choices and then you're saying, well, 0:47:51.680 --> 0:47:55.440 I couldn't help it, I think that's again a dangerous 0:47:55.480 --> 0:47:58.440 thing to a dangerous road to go down. Wow. 0:47:58.520 --> 0:48:02.080 Okay, okay, let's end this interview talking a little about 0:48:02.120 --> 0:48:04.600 the importance of brains working together. You know you this 0:48:04.680 --> 0:48:09.120 chapter called a Living Will Together Man, have you with 0:48:09.120 --> 0:48:14.000 the extended brain hypothesis that uh, David Chalmers and Andy 0:48:14.040 --> 0:48:16.600 Clark put forward and that Annie Murphy Paul wrote about 0:48:16.640 --> 0:48:17.680 in a recent book. 0:48:17.840 --> 0:48:19.400 Nope and that sounds like another one. I got to 0:48:19.480 --> 0:48:21.560 check it out. I think I'm going to be familiar 0:48:21.600 --> 0:48:24.440 with the arguments once you explain it to me quickly. 0:48:25.120 --> 0:48:27.960 Oh yeah, you'll, you'll definitely. I mean, well, just that 0:48:28.160 --> 0:48:33.200 there are there are brains, don't stop and start enclosed 0:48:33.200 --> 0:48:38.120 in this head, That we are deeply, deeply embodied and 0:48:38.239 --> 0:48:42.319 connected to others, and our brain is extended beyond just 0:48:42.400 --> 0:48:44.200 this skin here. 0:48:44.520 --> 0:48:44.960 It's just it. 0:48:44.920 --> 0:48:47.439 Seems very much in line with your your Living Well 0:48:47.480 --> 0:48:50.799 Together chapter, we talk about how we really influence each 0:48:50.840 --> 0:48:55.560 other's We really influence each other's free will in profound ways. Right, 0:48:55.600 --> 0:48:59.560 it's not all strictly in an individual pursuit the pursuit 0:48:59.600 --> 0:49:00.680 of free will, all right. 0:49:00.719 --> 0:49:03.719 Yeah, And that sounds consistent with what I've been what 0:49:03.760 --> 0:49:07.000 I say in the book about this multi level hierarchy 0:49:07.080 --> 0:49:12.319 of organization where we are also nested within groups of 0:49:12.360 --> 0:49:16.040 other minds and we're influenced by them, but we also 0:49:16.680 --> 0:49:20.640 influence them, and it's critical for our well being and 0:49:20.680 --> 0:49:26.360 our adaptation, I would argue, to be able to form 0:49:27.120 --> 0:49:33.239 coherent groups, alliances, coalitions, and evolutionary terminology, and so we're 0:49:33.280 --> 0:49:39.120 not just not just these abstract entities stuck in our heads. 0:49:39.160 --> 0:49:42.440 We're also connected to other minds out there in the world, 0:49:43.520 --> 0:49:46.920 hopefully in a way that benefits everybody. So it sounds 0:49:46.920 --> 0:49:48.600 like a really cool idea. In another book, I have 0:49:48.640 --> 0:49:49.759 to go look up, Scott. 0:49:51.360 --> 0:49:53.160 Yeah, yeah, look it up. 0:49:53.280 --> 0:49:54.319 Let me just look up real quick. 0:49:54.360 --> 0:49:56.760 The title of Manny Murphy Paul's new book, she basically 0:49:56.800 --> 0:50:00.000 summarizes the work Urr. Book is called The Extended Mind 0:50:00.640 --> 0:50:04.440 by Annie Murphy Paul. The subtitle is The Power of 0:50:04.520 --> 0:50:08.120 Thinking Outside the Brain. Annie's a dear friend of mine. 0:50:08.160 --> 0:50:09.480 And yeah, I think it's. 0:50:09.320 --> 0:50:09.960 A cool book. 0:50:10.560 --> 0:50:12.160 Yeah, and I think I do like that He of 0:50:12.200 --> 0:50:16.160 us thinking about free will more than just an individualistic pursuit, right, 0:50:16.160 --> 0:50:18.600 I mean, we influence each other's and each other in 0:50:18.640 --> 0:50:21.520 such profound ways. We limit each other's freedom, not just 0:50:21.600 --> 0:50:25.080 internally but also externally. The liberals got something right there 0:50:25.440 --> 0:50:29.600 to a certain degree. Your father is right, but it's 0:50:29.640 --> 0:50:32.160 not the whole story, but you know it is part 0:50:32.160 --> 0:50:33.120 of the story for sure. 0:50:33.480 --> 0:50:33.680 Yeah. 0:50:33.719 --> 0:50:37.080 Yeah, well, this is this has been great. Is there 0:50:37.120 --> 0:50:39.520 anything else you want to add that you haven't said? 0:50:39.880 --> 0:50:43.160 I guess I would just reiterate that I can't prove 0:50:43.200 --> 0:50:46.600 and nobody can prove that free will exists. I think 0:50:46.680 --> 0:50:49.239 it's likely if you think about it the right way, 0:50:49.280 --> 0:50:51.760 and I think about it the way Kristen lifts list 0:50:51.880 --> 0:50:55.800 laid out is philosophical arguments. But even if it's not true, 0:50:56.480 --> 0:50:58.719 the illusion of freedom, if you want to call that, 0:50:58.880 --> 0:51:02.239 makes a huge difference, and it might operate like a 0:51:02.320 --> 0:51:05.800 kind of placebo effect that it even though it's an illusion, 0:51:06.239 --> 0:51:09.799 it makes itself true to a considerable extent in that 0:51:10.000 --> 0:51:12.759 if you believe in it, suddenly you're doing things that 0:51:12.840 --> 0:51:15.640 are better for you and making you happier and making 0:51:15.680 --> 0:51:19.719 you adapt and thrive to a greater extent. So whether 0:51:19.800 --> 0:51:21.759 you want to call that an illusion, I think is 0:51:22.640 --> 0:51:24.680 you know, I think it's going too far to just 0:51:24.760 --> 0:51:28.080 say it's an illusion. I'd say it's an adaptation. But 0:51:29.600 --> 0:51:32.000 you know, it can go around and around with these 0:51:32.040 --> 0:51:34.000 things linguistics. 0:51:34.000 --> 0:51:35.960 You can call it an adaptive illusion, but then you 0:51:35.960 --> 0:51:38.520 don't really like calling it an illusion. Yeah, no, I 0:51:38.560 --> 0:51:41.919 hear you. I mean it's like religion, right, like or. 0:51:42.200 --> 0:51:42.960 Belief in God. 0:51:43.840 --> 0:51:47.359 Yeah, you know, like we don't know for sure. It's 0:51:47.360 --> 0:51:49.080 sort of like a similar argument to what you're saying. 0:51:49.120 --> 0:51:52.000 I mean, we probably won't never know while we're alive. 0:51:52.600 --> 0:51:55.320 You know, maybe we'll find out someday. Oh hey, God, 0:51:56.040 --> 0:52:00.399 you do exist after all. But it's hard. It's hard 0:52:00.400 --> 0:52:01.319 to know that right now. 0:52:01.640 --> 0:52:04.080 Yeah, right, And I don't know. I don't know the 0:52:04.120 --> 0:52:08.319 truth of this, and neither does anybody else. But it's 0:52:08.360 --> 0:52:10.560 true that it is like a religion to people. You know, 0:52:11.120 --> 0:52:15.399 determinism is like a religion to people. Free will might 0:52:15.440 --> 0:52:19.000 be like a religion to me. I don't know. I 0:52:19.040 --> 0:52:23.200 would agree with Sam Harris. I do think that God 0:52:23.320 --> 0:52:25.680 is a delusion, that religion is a delusion. But I 0:52:25.719 --> 0:52:30.279 can't be sure about that either. So really you just 0:52:30.320 --> 0:52:32.320 have to be sort of agnostic if you're going to 0:52:32.560 --> 0:52:35.080 be humble in the. 0:52:35.080 --> 0:52:38.000 End, Ken Sheldon letting it all hang out here at 0:52:38.040 --> 0:52:41.960 the end of his career. God is good. But we 0:52:42.000 --> 0:52:45.040 have free will. That's that's interesting. Usually you find a 0:52:45.080 --> 0:52:47.640 lot of the really deep religious Christians believe we have 0:52:48.160 --> 0:52:51.200 free will. It's an interesting isn't that interesting? You often 0:52:51.239 --> 0:52:52.480 find they do believe in free will. 0:52:52.560 --> 0:52:53.279 God gave it to you. 0:52:55.040 --> 0:52:56.839 Well, that's what it is. I guess is that God 0:52:56.880 --> 0:53:02.200 gave it to us to us, But there you go, Well, 0:53:02.200 --> 0:53:03.280 who gave us evolution? 0:53:04.480 --> 0:53:06.400 This is a chance prodcast. 0:53:08.200 --> 0:53:10.719 Anyway. I won't go down that rabbit hole too much 0:53:10.920 --> 0:53:12.920 at this point, but we can do that over some 0:53:12.960 --> 0:53:16.040 beers someday or some wine. Really great chatting with you, 0:53:16.280 --> 0:53:19.120 and thanks for reading this really provocative book. 0:53:20.000 --> 0:53:22.120 I appreciate it. It was fun reconnecting with you, and 0:53:22.120 --> 0:53:23.200 we should do it more often. 0:53:23.840 --> 0:53:35.279 Likewise, thanks for listening to this episode of The Psychology Podcast. 0:53:35.719 --> 0:53:37.800 If you'd like to react in some way to something 0:53:37.800 --> 0:53:40.360 you heard, I encourage you to join in the discussion 0:53:40.360 --> 0:53:43.800 at thus psychology podcast dot com. We're on our YouTube page, 0:53:43.880 --> 0:53:46.840 The Psychology Podcast. We also put up some videos of 0:53:46.880 --> 0:53:49.680 some episodes on our YouTube page as well, so you'll 0:53:49.719 --> 0:53:51.800 want to check that out. Thanks for being such a 0:53:51.800 --> 0:53:54.200 great supporter of the show, and tune in next time 0:53:54.239 --> 0:53:59.759 for more on the mind, brain, behavior, and creativity.