Speaker 1: Hi.
Speaker 2: I'm Laura Vanderkamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist,
Speaker 2: and speaker.
Speaker 3: And I'm Sarah hart Hunger, a mother of three, practicing physician,
Speaker 3: writer and course creator. We are two working parents who
Speaker 3: love our careers and our families.
Speaker 2: Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about
Speaker 2: how real women manage work, family, and time for fun.
Speaker 2: From figuring out childcare to mapping out long term career goals.
Speaker 2: We want you to get the most out of life.
Speaker 1: Welcome to best of both worlds. This is Laura.
Speaker 2: This episode is airing in late September of twenty twenty four.
Speaker 2: Sarah is going to be interviewing Sam Kelly, who is
Speaker 2: a former therapist who now has a business where she
Speaker 2: teaches a course called Little Cycle Breakers, which is about
Speaker 2: getting kids to notice what needs doing and take more
Speaker 2: response ability at home. So I'm sure we have a
Speaker 2: lot of listeners who think that sounds like a great idea.
Speaker 2: I w'd love to have more people who live with
Speaker 2: us participate in taking care of things. So Sarah is
Speaker 2: noticing what needs to be done and participating in household life,
Speaker 2: something that happens a lot in your house.
Speaker 3: Not at all, I think been noticing in particular is
Speaker 3: very much not happening, and I do feel like it's
Speaker 3: very easy to be like I'm in the little kid phase.
Speaker 3: I'm in the little kid phase. My kids can't do anything,
Speaker 3: and then like you look up and you're like, we
Speaker 3: are not in that phase. They could have been doing
Speaker 3: so much and years have gone by. I mean, I
Speaker 3: don't feel like there's a lot of noticing that goes on,
Speaker 3: and I'd really like to work towards that. Plus just
Speaker 3: having people have some more regular responsibilities compared to what
Speaker 3: we have going on right now. Like if I'm cooking
Speaker 3: dinner on Sunday, I want kids to be like, oh,
Speaker 3: let me set the table and put the waters on
Speaker 3: the table, or let's help clean up after the meal.
Speaker 3: I want to get my backpack stuff ready so then
Speaker 3: I'm not freaking out in the morning like maybe I do.
Speaker 3: So I am super super excited for this interview and
Speaker 3: learning more from Sam because I actually feel like we're
Speaker 3: at the prime moment to work on some of these things.
Speaker 3: I mean, maybe she would say we were kind of
Speaker 3: late because I think some of her stuff is geared
Speaker 3: to younger kids, but still sure, there's a lot we
Speaker 3: can benefit from.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I got to say, I mean, I love the
Speaker 2: idea of people noticing and doing stuff, and I think
Speaker 2: that's great when it happens, I would say you probably
Speaker 2: don't have to rely on the noticing. If noticing is
Speaker 2: the hoop you're trying to get through, that may be
Speaker 2: a really challenging one to do. However, if your goal
Speaker 2: is just to get the kids to help more around
Speaker 2: the house, getting your head around the idea of just
Speaker 2: asking more for them to do, Like my kids almost
Speaker 2: never turned down a direct request, Like it would take
Speaker 2: a lot for somebody to be like, if I'm like,
Speaker 2: empty the dishwasher please, for them to be like, no,
Speaker 2: I won't, and that would cause a real issue. So
Speaker 2: I need to just be like, would you please empty
Speaker 2: the dishwasher, or let's all clear the table together, or
Speaker 2: why don't you go do the pots and pans and
Speaker 2: you do this part? Or all right, kids, you need
Speaker 2: to go help take out the trash right now, or
Speaker 2: the cleaning service is coming tomorrow, so your room floors
Speaker 2: need to be picked up, because otherwise no one's responsible
Speaker 2: for where your stuff winds up. That's not going to
Speaker 2: be my fault when things are are lost, or if
Speaker 2: you would like your laundry done, great, but it needs
Speaker 2: to be in the laundry room by nine am this morning,
Speaker 2: otherwise it will not be happening today. So you know,
Speaker 2: I think you can just calmly ask for things. Again,
Speaker 2: would it be great if they noticed and like just
Speaker 2: did it. Yeah, But there are also other ways to
Speaker 2: get more help instead of just hoping that the noticing
Speaker 2: will happen.
Speaker 3: And that's even hard sometimes. I mean, I'm a little
Speaker 3: jealous that you can just ask someone nicely to please
Speaker 3: unload the dishwasher and it will happen. I wish I
Speaker 3: could say that it's true. In our house, I might
Speaker 3: get a know, I might get my question ignored. I
Speaker 3: mean usually after repeated requests, perhaps an escalating tone, it
Speaker 3: might happen, but not quickly. And I really do feel
Speaker 3: like that is to some extent just our fault, like
Speaker 3: we just didn't build that into the culture of you
Speaker 3: guys need to help us with stuff, and I feel
Speaker 3: like it's time.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I would also say, I mean sometimes the pushback,
Speaker 2: that way people try to push back is say, well,
Speaker 2: why didn't you ask so and so or so and
Speaker 2: so hasn't done anything today. And the problem is, if
Speaker 2: there are like four older kids, there's a lot of
Speaker 2: people you could point out to maybe it's been not
Speaker 2: doing anything today or something like that, and you know,
Speaker 2: I have to come up with a calm answer to that,
Speaker 2: which is just that I will ask them to do
Speaker 2: something else and I am asking you to do this,
Speaker 2: and hopefully, you know, you just say that enough.
Speaker 1: Eventually maybe we'll lessen it. We'll see.
Speaker 2: But I'm very excited to hear what Sam Kelly has
Speaker 2: to say here as well.
Speaker 1: So let's go to the interview.
Speaker 4: Well, I am so excited today to be here with
Speaker 4: Sam Kelly, who is the author of an audio course
Speaker 4: that we're going to talk all about, and it has
Speaker 4: to do with kids noticing, as you heard in the intro,
Speaker 4: Laura and I are not the best about having our
Speaker 4: kids help out around the home. And Sam, Laura and
Speaker 4: I have kids ranging mes from like before to seventeen
Speaker 4: between us, we have eight kids, so lots of experience
Speaker 4: with parenting not knocking it out of the park in
Speaker 4: terms of making sure the kids are helping and contributing
Speaker 4: to our home life. So I'm super excited to chat.
Speaker 4: So tell our listeners a little bit about your background
Speaker 4: and your current career life, and I guess a little
Speaker 4: bit how you got interested in this particular topic.
Speaker 5: Yeah, so, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 6: So I am a therapist turned coach for mothers. I
Speaker 6: teach kids how to be proactive in the home, break
Speaker 6: this side full of motherhood burnout, and to also break
Speaker 6: the cycle of inequitable partnership. And you know, it's interesting.
Speaker 5: That you mentioned and I hear this a lot, like, Ah, like.
Speaker 6: I'm not the best at teaching my kids how to
Speaker 6: help around the house.
Speaker 7: And I totally.
Speaker 6: Relate to that because when you are the parents, and
Speaker 6: oftentimes as women, we are the default parent, and you're
Speaker 6: working outside the home, you're basically working two jobs full
Speaker 6: time and then some When we think about trying to
Speaker 6: get our kids to be contributors in the home, it
Speaker 6: can feel like just one more thing on our list.
Speaker 6: And when we go to try to teach them.
Speaker 5: How to like unload the dishwasher, or.
Speaker 6: Here's how to clean up after yourself or sleep up
Speaker 6: a mess, whatever it is, it can feel so much
Speaker 6: harder to get them.
Speaker 5: To do it.
Speaker 6: And at the end of the day, I'm like, we
Speaker 6: just need to get the stuff done, so I don't
Speaker 6: have time to go to battle with my kids just
Speaker 6: to get a bathroom cleaned. Five thousand things on my
Speaker 6: to do list.
Speaker 5: I just need to get it cleaned.
Speaker 7: And it's so much.
Speaker 6: Easier if I am quicker, if I just do it myself.
Speaker 6: And so I just want to give like so much
Speaker 6: empathy and compassion because I have totally been there. I've
Speaker 6: read all the stuff and I was like, that sounds great,
Speaker 6: But I just need to be able to like move
Speaker 6: on with my life because I have so many things
Speaker 6: to do and having my kids like learn how to
Speaker 6: do the dishes at the very bottom of my list.
Speaker 6: So that is what we are doing, and we're doing
Speaker 6: it in the easiest, simplest, most low list way for
Speaker 6: busy parents because I am a busy working mom of
Speaker 6: three and if it's not practical or realistic for my life,
Speaker 6: it's not going to happen. So that is what we're doing,
Speaker 6: and it's honestly changing home dynamics and women especially lives
Speaker 6: everywhere all around the world because it is so practical
Speaker 6: and doable and it actually works.
Speaker 3: I love it. Well, let's start a little bit from
Speaker 3: the beginning and talk about what this kind of like
Speaker 3: in visis load is because you mentioned the invisible load
Speaker 3: and a lot of your work, and yet I want,
Speaker 3: I mean, we all have kind of our idea of
Speaker 3: what that might look like, but I want the Sam
Speaker 3: Kelly version, like, what is this invisible load? What is
Speaker 3: it that actually needs to be noticed?
Speaker 6: Yes, okay, So the invisible load is not the fact
Speaker 6: that you're doing the dishes. It's not the physical task itself.
Speaker 6: It's the fact that you have five hundred tabs open
Speaker 6: in your brain simultaneously while you're doing the dishes. It's
Speaker 6: the way that you are tracking whether or not you're
Speaker 6: running out of detergent for the dishes. It's the fact
Speaker 6: that you know where everything goes in the kitchen and
Speaker 6: nobody else does. Like you know where the cake pan goes,
Speaker 6: You know where like the obscure things go. It's the
Speaker 6: fact that you know how long a cycle takes of
Speaker 6: dishes before it needs to be unloaded. It's the fact
Speaker 6: that you know that you are planning a certain meal
Speaker 6: tomorrow night that you need a certain kitchen utenial for
Speaker 6: and it's currently in the dish washer and it needs
Speaker 6: to be cleaned in order for you to use it tomorrow,
Speaker 6: So it's tracking all these things. The physical load or
Speaker 6: the mental load is the invisible. It's like the engine
Speaker 6: under the hood that makes all the physical tasks possible.
Speaker 6: And it's the type of thing that you have no
Speaker 6: idea how all consuming and endless it is until you're
Speaker 6: the one that's being the engine for the entire family,
Speaker 6: moving the whole car forward.
Speaker 3: This correcks me up because you're talking about like thinking
Speaker 3: ahead and planning ahead, and this just past weekend. I
Speaker 3: was like, Oh, anybody have any dinner ideas? And my
Speaker 3: husband's like, very innocently, like it's not his fault, and
Speaker 3: he's like, how about this like chipottle beef resbee with tacos?
Speaker 3: And I'm like my head exploded because I'm like, do
Speaker 3: you understand that's a slow cooker recipe and we don't
Speaker 3: even have the ingredients and I don't plan to go
Speaker 3: to the store because I have to take this ki
Speaker 3: into a plate and like like.
Speaker 5: Here's that that?
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I don't want to even say it's the planning.
Speaker 3: It's like the orchestration and like understanding how all the
Speaker 3: pieces kind of like fit to yes.
Speaker 6: Right, Well, it's like the anticipating of needs, and in
Speaker 6: order to anticipate needs, you have to have an awareness
Speaker 6: of what the needs are to begin with. So when
Speaker 6: people say, well, just tell me what I need to
Speaker 6: do and make me a list, which like we'll talk
Speaker 6: about like that's exactly like what a chour list is.
Speaker 5: Just tell me what to do, mom.
Speaker 7: I mean kids that may or may not actually do
Speaker 7: it right.
Speaker 6: Just make me a list and I'll do it. The
Speaker 6: amount of work mental work, cognitive like work that has
Speaker 6: to go into making the list is really really significant,
Speaker 6: and that's the stuff that wears.
Speaker 5: On us all the time.
Speaker 6: And it's also it's also be really demoralizing because it's
Speaker 6: like nobody sees that work. You're for sure not getting
Speaker 6: like a parade for the fact that you're doing that work.
Speaker 6: And so then when you're like grumpy or resentful or
Speaker 6: just like so worn down and at the end of
Speaker 6: your rope and everyone's like, what's wrong with you?
Speaker 5: Can't you just relax?
Speaker 7: What's going on? It's like.
Speaker 3: I love it, I absolutely love it. I think a
Speaker 3: lot of listeners know exactly what you're talking about, and
Speaker 3: it is hard to put into words, but I think
Speaker 3: you're giving us a really valuable way of thinking about it.
Speaker 3: So that's perfect. Let's step over to the concept of noticing.
Speaker 3: And this is what actually initially struck a chord with me.
Speaker 3: I heard you. I don't know if it was you
Speaker 3: or just her talking about you, but Kendra Dauchy of
Speaker 3: The Lazy Genius love her work, and she had an
Speaker 3: episode where she talked all about how she learned about
Speaker 3: your stuff and how the key for her was finding
Speaker 3: out that your goal is to not just Again, it's
Speaker 3: not teaching people to check things off of the list
Speaker 3: because that serves no one, and then the person making
Speaker 3: the list is still tearing their hair out because they're
Speaker 3: the ones making the list, but rather getting behind it
Speaker 3: to getting kids to notice. And that was like one
Speaker 3: of the first times I had actually heard noticing used
Speaker 3: in that way. How did you come up with that concept?
Speaker 3: And what does it mean to notice?
Speaker 6: Yeah, so about let's see two years ago now, I
Speaker 6: hit a breaking point. I had been married at that
Speaker 6: point to my husband for eleven years, and it got
Speaker 6: to the point where I just could not do everything
Speaker 6: that was expected of me to do every single day,
Speaker 6: and I started to subfront the then inequity in my
Speaker 6: own relationship with my husband, and it was a very,
Speaker 6: very long, slow process. We worked on it really really
Speaker 6: intently for over a year. We're still working on it
Speaker 6: because I feel like it's a journey, not a destination together,
Speaker 6: and so we started working on it for like the years, okay,
Speaker 6: and at that point it had gotten a lot better.
Speaker 6: So then it's a Sriday night, I'm making a Saturday
Speaker 6: morning chort list for my kids, like a to do list,
Speaker 6: and I just have this huge moment and I drop
Speaker 6: the magic marker through the floor and I was like,
Speaker 6: what am I doing. I just spent the last year
Speaker 6: of my life teaching my husband how to not rely
Speaker 6: on me to notice what needs to be done in
Speaker 6: the home and do it, and how to take initiative
Speaker 6: and be proactive and not need me to give him
Speaker 6: in a list, a list or assignments. But I am
Speaker 6: teaching my kids to rely on me to give them
Speaker 6: a list and make it, make them assignments.
Speaker 5: So the next morning.
Speaker 6: I said, hey, guys, there's some things that need to
Speaker 6: be done in the home. I'm not going to give
Speaker 6: you a list, because here's what we're going to do.
Speaker 6: And I just made up this term called notice and do.
Speaker 6: You're going to notice what needs to happen, and then
Speaker 6: we're going to do it. And I think it's important,
Speaker 6: Like you said, like, what does noticing mean?
Speaker 5: We, especially as.
Speaker 6: Women, we know what noticing means inside and out because
Speaker 6: we're the ones that are by default oftentimes expected to
Speaker 6: be the noticers. So just because we know how to
Speaker 6: do something doesn't mean our kids are automatically going to
Speaker 6: know how to do it, So we need to teach them.
Speaker 6: Is absolutely a teachable skill when you know how to
Speaker 6: do it and the simple way to do it. So
Speaker 6: I taught them how to notice. I taught them how
Speaker 6: to see different things that need to be done in
Speaker 6: the home, whether it's a bathroom countertop that needs to
Speaker 6: be sprayed down or a floor that can be vacuumed,
Speaker 6: or how to unload a dishwasher. How to see when
Speaker 6: a dishwasher needs to be unloaded and then take the
Speaker 6: initiatives to do it without me saying, hey, the dishwasher's son,
Speaker 6: can you go unload it. I taught them a concept
Speaker 6: called we just call it resetting a room, So how
Speaker 6: to get a room back to like a baseline. We
Speaker 6: call it like clean enough quote unquote levels, because we're
Speaker 6: not going for perfection here, but we are going for improvement.
Speaker 6: And then what started to happen was I went from
Speaker 6: essentially like a one mom band to an entire full
Speaker 6: family team of capable humans who are able to take
Speaker 6: initiative and help manage not only the physical paths of
Speaker 6: the home, but carry their own mental load of seeing
Speaker 6: for themselves what needs to be happened, and then do
Speaker 6: it without relying on me.
Speaker 5: And it was a life.
Speaker 3: Changing, amazing Well, we're going to take a quick break
Speaker 3: and when we come back, we're going to talk about
Speaker 3: some specific scenarios. And even though I know you can't
Speaker 3: reveal all because I'm sure you share details in your course.
Speaker 7: Let's talk about it.
Speaker 3: Awesome, all right, Well we'll be right back. All right,
Speaker 3: We are back, and Sam has shared her amazing story
Speaker 3: of how she was able to get her kids, specifically
Speaker 3: to start noticing and the changes that that caused around
Speaker 3: her home, which sound amazing. So I'm sure all of
Speaker 3: us listening are like me and are like, hmmm, how
Speaker 3: can I make that happen? So, if you had to
Speaker 3: summarize is your method? Obviously you go into much more
Speaker 3: detail in your course, give us the kind of like
Speaker 3: the free version. I want to know, how do you
Speaker 3: get kids to notice?
Speaker 6: Yes, let's get into it. Okay, So it's a really
Speaker 6: simple three step process. One you're going to teach your
Speaker 6: kids age appropriate cleaning skills, and I'll tell you the
Speaker 6: system for that. Two you're going to teach your kids
Speaker 6: noticing skills. This is where the proactive initiative is taking
Speaker 6: things comes into play. And then three we're going to
Speaker 6: do cycle breaking conversations. And this is really important because
Speaker 6: when kids understand the deeper why behind all of this,
Speaker 6: like not just because we're cleaning the house because I
Speaker 6: said so, but that there are real intentional reasons behind
Speaker 6: why we are shifting away from the tor chart and
Speaker 6: proactively noticing in the home, it starts to shift how
Speaker 6: kids think. So again that's the cleaning skills, noticing skills,
Speaker 6: and then the cycle breaking conversations. So the way that
Speaker 6: I teach the cleaning skills is through daily responsibilit these
Speaker 6: that are consistent that they can have ownership over every
Speaker 6: single day. So this can be specific to each child,
Speaker 6: or you can have all of your kids do the
Speaker 6: same things. It's totally flexible depending on your kids' ages,
Speaker 6: and needs, and we call it the big three. So,
Speaker 6: for example, my kid's big three is they are responsible
Speaker 6: every day for making their beds. They are responsible for
Speaker 6: noticing whether or not the dishwasher needs to be unloaded,
Speaker 6: and then if it does need to be unloaded, they
Speaker 6: each take a section to unload and noticing and managing
Speaker 6: the entirety of their own laundry so that seeing when
Speaker 6: it needs to go in the wash, running a cycle,
Speaker 6: tracking when it needs to be switched over to the dryer,
Speaker 6: putting it in the dryer, taking it out the dryer
Speaker 6: when it's done, sorting, and folding. So every single day
Speaker 6: they do their big three. It's off my plate. I
Speaker 6: don't have to worry about it. They just know that
Speaker 6: that is the expectation. And this is the part that's
Speaker 6: actually most similar to the church, which is nice because
Speaker 6: it gives them a sense of familiarity, like we're not
Speaker 6: completely pulling the rug out from underneath them and being
Speaker 6: like and now we're going.
Speaker 8: To do something completely different than you've never done before.
Speaker 8: There's kind of a sense of safety and that familiarity
Speaker 8: of like, oh yeah, like this is somewhat familiar, like
Speaker 8: I've done this before.
Speaker 5: And it kind of has that element of.
Speaker 6: Fox checking, with the difference that I am not the
Speaker 6: one saying have you done your laundry? You need to
Speaker 6: do the laundry. Remember, it needs to be switched over.
Speaker 6: Not to say that in the beginning, there's not reminders
Speaker 6: and we're not teaching them because it's a process, but
Speaker 6: we're putting the emphasis on the noticing. So if a
Speaker 6: kid comes to me and it's like, hey, Mom, do
Speaker 6: I do I need to put a lot of.
Speaker 5: La laundry in?
Speaker 7: I'm like, I don't know, have you noticed it?
Speaker 6: Remember, noticing is a huge part of the work. So
Speaker 6: just little phrases like that that really really emphasize the
Speaker 6: importance of noticing.
Speaker 5: And sometimes for.
Speaker 6: Example, like laundry, my kids don't need to run a
Speaker 6: load of laundry every day because they're not generating that
Speaker 6: much laundry, but we still practice checking every day to
Speaker 6: see if it needs to be done, and that's a
Speaker 6: huge part of the noticing. So that's the big three Again,
Speaker 6: it can be anything you want. So I've had some
Speaker 6: people say, like their kids big three is taking their
Speaker 6: shoes off and putting their shoes.
Speaker 5: Away, their backpack away, water bottle.
Speaker 6: Away after school, making sure they clear the dishes after
Speaker 6: they eat, and it like.
Speaker 5: Tidying their roots.
Speaker 6: It can be anything. So that's the big three. Then
Speaker 6: the way we teach the noticing is in addition to
Speaker 6: their daily big three, they do one notice and do
Speaker 6: of their shoesing, and in the course I teach how
Speaker 6: to show them how to notice, so they can start
Speaker 6: learning that skill. But the cool thing is then you're
Speaker 6: giving them the freedom and the independence to choose whatever
Speaker 6: it is that they want to proactively choose to notice,
Speaker 6: so they have a really big element of control and
Speaker 6: they get to it can be different every day, it
Speaker 6: can be the same every day, whatever it is they
Speaker 6: want to do. And then the cycle breaking script is
Speaker 6: where we talk about kind of big concepts like society,
Speaker 6: societal expectations that are gender for men and women in relationships.
Speaker 5: We talk about what burnout.
Speaker 6: Means, we talk about what being a cycle breaker means,
Speaker 6: we talk about what inequity in partnerships looks like. But
Speaker 6: we do it in ways that are very very simple,
Speaker 6: understandable and age appropriate for kids. So they start having
Speaker 6: these light bulb moments like oh, I didn't know that
Speaker 6: as a girl, like my daughter, I have a daughter
Speaker 6: who's twelve and a daughter who's ten, So I don't
Speaker 6: tell my daughters that when they grow up side culture
Speaker 6: is going to expect them to be that invisible engine
Speaker 6: under the hood. And what happens when you're the invisible
Speaker 6: engine under the hood. They're going to walk into the
Speaker 6: same situation that so many of us are in where
Speaker 6: we wake up one morning and we're like, what, like,
Speaker 6: what is happening? I Am being crushed and no one
Speaker 6: can see it or understand it. And for my son,
Speaker 6: who's just he's almost seven next month, he will one
Speaker 6: hundred percent walk into relationship expecting, right if he's going
Speaker 6: to head of a normative relationship, expecting the woman to do
Speaker 6: it all. So we have to give them the language
Speaker 6: to understand the importance of this and why we're doing
Speaker 6: it differently, because it's not mom's job to do everything,
Speaker 6: because we are in a family team, and family teams
Speaker 6: work all together, and that my son is just as
Speaker 6: capable of carrying the mental load as women, as his sisters,
Speaker 6: as his mom. We talk about what mental load means.
Speaker 6: So all of these three pieces work together, and that's
Speaker 6: where the magic happens en. That's where everything starts to shift.
Speaker 3: I love your emphasis on like making sure you're teaching
Speaker 3: both genders and explaining the inequities to both, because it's
Speaker 3: not enough to be like, oh, well, empower our girls,
Speaker 3: Like no, that doesn't help. It's actually probably even more
Speaker 3: important to educate the other side. So yeah, I love
Speaker 3: that you include that. I'm curious what happens when there's
Speaker 3: failure because I'm thinking about my own home here, and
Speaker 3: if I were like, I mean, obviously, it's probably less
Speaker 3: likely if you're following all the steps and doing things
Speaker 3: in a step wise fashion. But if tomorrow I was
Speaker 3: like middle child, you're going to notice your laundry, there
Speaker 3: would be failure, and then there would be like a
Speaker 3: day where he's like, I have soccer and I have
Speaker 3: no clean uniform. What do I do? Is like part
Speaker 3: of the training, like letting them fail or like how
Speaker 3: do you address it when it just doesn't happen?
Speaker 7: Oh, that's such a good question.
Speaker 6: So first, I would reframe it that we're not failing,
Speaker 6: we're learning. So second, like and absolutely it's going to
Speaker 6: be a process, and for us as women, it's so
Speaker 6: so understandable that like we're exhausted, we're burnt out, we're done.
Speaker 6: The thought of having our kids proactively noticed feels like
Speaker 6: a fantasy and a dream, and we want it to
Speaker 6: happen like this because we are just at the end
Speaker 6: of our rope. We have to understand that it is
Speaker 6: a like learning process, just like I say, you taught
Speaker 6: your kids to tie your shoes, want tire your shoes,
Speaker 6: tie their shoes, or read, or learn social skills to
Speaker 6: make friends, to step by step process and in the
Speaker 6: course I talk to you and teach you how to
Speaker 6: take individual steps where we teach them in small ways,
Speaker 6: every single step that needs to happen. While also, and
Speaker 6: this is a huge part managing our own expectations because
Speaker 6: like I said, we really really want it to happen immediately,
Speaker 6: but that's not our kids' job to fulfill for us,
Speaker 6: like that's our stuff. And so we manage our expectations
Speaker 6: with the understanding that this will happen and it's a
Speaker 6: process and going to learn together, then it will happen.
Speaker 6: So for example, with like your son and the laundry,
Speaker 6: instead of saying, okay, you're gonna notice your laundry and
Speaker 6: go right like we need to be able to kind
Speaker 6: of like link ons with him and say let me
Speaker 6: show you. So let's go and see your laundry baskets.
Speaker 6: When your laundry basket gets like this, bole, that's about
Speaker 6: the time when you're gonna want to put it in
Speaker 6: the washing machine. This is how you put it in
Speaker 6: the washing machine. This is how you put the soap in.
Speaker 6: This is how you manage the buttons or whatever. The
Speaker 6: what am I trying to think of, Like the.
Speaker 5: Setting, This is how you do the settings.
Speaker 6: It will normally wash for this much time. So if
Speaker 6: you have a game that you need to have a
Speaker 6: clean soccer jersey for or whatever, you can't put the
Speaker 6: start the wash thirty minutes before because it won't be
Speaker 6: ready in time. Again, these are things that like we
Speaker 6: are still no more kids know. They don't know because
Speaker 6: we've been the one doing it. So you say I
Speaker 6: would start it the day before or in the morning.
Speaker 6: Let's figure out a time together right now so we
Speaker 6: can set them up for success. When is going to
Speaker 6: be the best time to do that, And then we
Speaker 6: can give them small reminders, small encouragement, especially in the beginning,
Speaker 6: with the understanding that there's still just learning. So you
Speaker 6: could be like, hey, have you noticed your laundry for today,
Speaker 6: yet instead of saying, did you do your laundry? Is
Speaker 6: your soccer jersey queen? Have you gone and noticed where
Speaker 6: your laundry tamper is at? Or like, oh, just as
Speaker 6: a reminder tomorrow you have your games, have you noticed
Speaker 6: whether or not you have a clean shirt?
Speaker 5: And then what do you need to do after that?
Speaker 6: So you're like kind of giving them hints so they
Speaker 6: are able to fill in the blank and take some
Speaker 6: of that ownership and responsibility slowly over time.
Speaker 3: With the hopes that ultimately they'll see the game on
Speaker 3: the calendar be able to absolutely.
Speaker 6: But it's just like lifting weights. And I think especially
Speaker 6: with older kids, we think will like this is like
Speaker 6: a fifteen year old kid like he should be This
Speaker 6: is why I hear from parents of teens especially all
Speaker 6: the time here, she should be able to do this,
Speaker 6: and when we approach her from gop face instead of
Speaker 6: they are learning, they don't know and they're trying their best,
Speaker 6: like just assuming the best, whether or not they should
Speaker 6: be able to do it, quote unquote, it's kind of irrelevant.
Speaker 6: We're teaching them and we're just going to start from
Speaker 6: square one. So just like I said, lifting weights, Like,
Speaker 6: just because I'm a thirty year old not thirty, I'm
Speaker 6: almost forty.
Speaker 3: We can rock down.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm almost forty.
Speaker 6: Because I'm a forty year old woman, Should I be
Speaker 6: able to lift fifty pound weights and do like, you know,
Speaker 6: three sets of twenty right off the bat.
Speaker 5: I don't know, but probably not if.
Speaker 7: I'm not used to doing it.
Speaker 6: So I'm going to start with the fight weight and
Speaker 6: I'm going to lift those five pound weights for a while,
Speaker 6: and then I'm going to gradually, as my muscles grow,
Speaker 6: my capabilities grow, I'm going to like increase the weight.
Speaker 6: So start small, keep your expectations in check, because again,
Speaker 6: that's about us, it's not about them, and slowly, over
Speaker 6: time teach them.
Speaker 3: I love it. We're going to take another quick break
Speaker 3: and then we're going to talk about two very different
Speaker 3: age groups, toddlers and adults. All right, we are back,
Speaker 3: and I was very impressed looking at your stuff that
Speaker 3: this isn't just about teens. This is about little kids,
Speaker 3: and how when you start doing these lessons early you
Speaker 3: can achieve some really impressive noticing and actual helping in
Speaker 3: really young ones and lass of where our listeners are
Speaker 3: in those stages so can you talk a little bit
Speaker 3: about how these tactics apply to toddlers and preschoolers.
Speaker 6: Totally, Littles are so fun because they're so eager to please,
Speaker 6: and it's the stage in life where all of this
Speaker 6: can feel like a gain to them and parents, especially
Speaker 6: like if John was like eighteen months old, Like I
Speaker 6: had somebody DM me yesterday and she was like my
Speaker 6: eighteen month old and not unloads MPs all the garbages
Speaker 6: in our house.
Speaker 5: Now an eighteen.
Speaker 6: Month old and I don't have to tell them to
Speaker 6: do it. The other day, I just saw them dragging
Speaker 6: a garbage out to the garbage can, just all.
Speaker 5: On their own.
Speaker 6: So one of the ways that we teach younger kids,
Speaker 6: especially the concept of noticing, because they might not know
Speaker 6: what the word noticing means, is you can say, hey,
Speaker 6: I want to teach you the fun thing, and we're
Speaker 6: going to go clean up the playrooms, but we're going
Speaker 6: to do it in a little bit of a different way.
Speaker 6: We're going to notice what needs to be cleaned up,
Speaker 6: and I'm going to see if you can notice what
Speaker 6: to be cleaned up without me telling you. Now, noticing
Speaker 6: is just a special way of saying, see So we're
Speaker 6: going to take our noticing goggles and I just like
Speaker 6: cut my hands and put them over my eyes like
Speaker 6: glasses or goggles, and we're gonna look with our special
Speaker 6: noticing goggles on together, and we're going to see what
Speaker 6: needs to be put away. And if you notice something,
Speaker 6: you can yell notice and run and grab and put
Speaker 6: it away, or you can beep like a robot, like
Speaker 6: a metal detector like baby ba baby, and then go
Speaker 6: and put it away. So we're going to start by
Speaker 6: looking at the floor. Is there anything you're noticing with
Speaker 6: your noticing goggles put away on this floor? Oh, I'm
Speaker 6: noticing that those blocks need to be put in the
Speaker 6: block box. Let's go notice those blocks and put away.
Speaker 6: So we're just using the word again and again and
Speaker 6: again instead of like, let's go put the blocks away,
Speaker 6: like you notice, you notice those blocks needed to be
Speaker 6: put away, Now let's go do it. And then oh okay,
Speaker 6: now sometimes we need to look a little bit higher.
Speaker 7: Than the floor.
Speaker 6: Let's look at the show, or let's look on the couch.
Speaker 6: Is there anything on the couch that isn't where it
Speaker 6: should be. Let's keep looking with our noticing goggles. So
Speaker 6: that's a really really simple way to just teach the
Speaker 6: concept of noticing to little and then we can start
Speaker 6: talking about let's go in another realm of the house
Speaker 6: and see what things are to notice, or as you're
Speaker 6: doing things in the kitchen, just narrating what you're doing
Speaker 6: and what you're noticing, so you can start to make
Speaker 6: what is then previously invisible visible to them. And it's
Speaker 6: going to sound like you're a little bit crazy at first,
Speaker 6: and that's okay, but you're just helping them see by
Speaker 6: verbalizing your thought process. So if you're doing like after dinner,
Speaker 6: cleenus like, hey, let's do some noticing together to reset
Speaker 6: this kitchen. Okay, I'm noticing that there's plates that are out,
Speaker 6: so I'm going to take the place and put them
Speaker 6: in the sync. I'm noticing that the milk jug is out.
Speaker 6: I'm going to put the milk jug back in the fridge.
Speaker 6: I'm noticing that there's crumbs all over the counters. Let
Speaker 6: me show you this fun way where you could kind
Speaker 6: of use your hand along the counter to free them,
Speaker 6: and then when we have the crowmbs, we're going to
Speaker 6: go put them in the garbage can. So really taking
Speaker 6: it step by step, breaking it down for them and
Speaker 6: just saying come do this with me and showing them
Speaker 6: the process instead of giving them as.
Speaker 5: Silence and saying you do this, you do this, you
Speaker 5: do this.
Speaker 6: You're really giving them the opportunity to say, this is
Speaker 6: how you see what needs to happen for yourself, because
Speaker 6: this is how I'm seeing for yourself. It's not magic,
Speaker 6: it's not rocket science, but we do need to kind
Speaker 6: of pull back the curtain in our brain so kids
Speaker 6: can start to understand all of the thought process that
Speaker 6: happens behind the noticing, love.
Speaker 3: It, and love that you are making that work even
Speaker 3: with toddlers, And I like the gamification idea because they're
Speaker 3: probably more likely to respond to that if there's an
Speaker 3: element of fun, because we all know the eighteen month
Speaker 3: olds do what eighteen month olds want, and there's not
Speaker 3: a lot of way to convince them, but if you
Speaker 3: make it enticing enough and make it fun enough, and
Speaker 3: that would be a great way to get them to
Speaker 3: make it a have it. So that's awesome. We're going
Speaker 3: to go to the other end of the spectrum because
Speaker 3: a lot of your methods do kind of apply to kids.
Speaker 3: But then there is the partner question, and I'm not, like,
Speaker 3: you know, specifically speaking about my partner, even though he
Speaker 3: did ask me to make a slow cooker meal at
Speaker 3: two pm that required no, I'm just kidding. He really
Speaker 3: meant well, and we're going to make it this weekend.
Speaker 3: So it was a great idea. But how do you
Speaker 3: help partners who might have some asymmetry, let's say, in
Speaker 3: the noticing asymmetry?
Speaker 6: I like that, Okay, So first we're going to understand
Speaker 6: the teaching our kids how to notice, and the relationship
Speaker 6: we have with the process there with them with children
Speaker 6: is entirely separate and different from teaching an adult partner
Speaker 6: to notice. I think also, too, it's important to validate
Speaker 6: the rage and just the inherent and fairness that comes
Speaker 6: with the fact that we are the ones who are
Speaker 6: doing all the noticing. And then also simultaneously we have
Speaker 6: to supposedly teach adult men how to do this as well. Like,
Speaker 6: there's an element of resentment there, and I think it's okay.
Speaker 6: Not I think I know it's okay to feel well, however,
Speaker 6: you need to feel about that, Like you don't need
Speaker 6: to like swelter your rage about that because it sucks.
Speaker 6: So teaching adults is entirely different from teaching kids, and
Speaker 6: for me, it looked like having hard conversations with my
Speaker 6: partner and having those conversations a lot, and having check
Speaker 6: in and having him watch other creator's content on Instagram
Speaker 6: that talks specifically to the adult side of this. So
Speaker 6: it wasn't all on me to be the educator. So
Speaker 6: he could take initiative and practice take the initiative for
Speaker 6: himself of watching these creators content. So he put like,
Speaker 6: for example, a reminder on his phone every day. I
Speaker 6: was like, every day at two pm, I need to
Speaker 6: go to this account, in this account and watch their
Speaker 6: content for the day.
Speaker 5: So I can. So it's like they don't know what they.
Speaker 6: Don't know, and they have been raised in the exact
Speaker 6: same patriarchal society that we have been raised in, and
Speaker 6: so there it takes time to start having an input
Speaker 6: of different information so they can start having an awareness
Speaker 6: and understanding. So that was one way that he took
Speaker 6: the initiative to educate himself over.
Speaker 7: A long period of time.
Speaker 6: He also took the initiative to put reminders on his phone.
Speaker 5: To have a weekly checking with me.
Speaker 6: So it wasn't on me to be like, Hey, it's
Speaker 6: Wednesday at seven, could we talk and just kind of
Speaker 6: see like where the progress has been, where we still
Speaker 6: need to do some improvement or work on it. So
Speaker 6: he took the initiative to say to approach me and say, hey, Wednesday,
Speaker 6: se let's talk about it.
Speaker 5: What am I doing well?
Speaker 6: What can still be improved?
Speaker 5: And then really really.
Speaker 6: Another key piece was focusing on the fact that when
Speaker 6: I came to him, one of his biggest defenses was
Speaker 6: I feel like you're saying I'm not good enough. And
Speaker 6: so that was something that we really had to talk about.
Speaker 6: And again I had to say, no, no, no, don't
Speaker 6: go there, don't do that. That is not what I
Speaker 6: am saying. I am not saying you're not good enough.
Speaker 6: I am saying there are skills that you do not
Speaker 6: currently have that in some ways no fault of your own,
Speaker 6: because you have been raised in the exact same way
Speaker 6: I have been raised, but on this opposite end of
Speaker 6: the spectrum. So like, we are in this together. The
Speaker 6: enemy is not you. This is not me versus you.
Speaker 6: The enemy is the patriarchal messages and societal gender based
Speaker 6: expectations that we have been given. And together we are
Speaker 6: going to fight this and like the deeply rooted stuff
Speaker 6: and we're going to unroot it together, and this is
Speaker 6: how we're going to do it, me and you together,
Speaker 6: So really approaching it from that kind of like team based,
Speaker 6: arm in arm again saying of like we got this,
Speaker 6: so it doesn't have to always go to I'm not
Speaker 6: enough for you, I'm not good enough I like, no
Speaker 6: matter how hard I tried it like no, no, no, nope,
Speaker 6: we're not doing that.
Speaker 5: We're not doing that. Member.
Speaker 6: This is me and you against this other thing. And
Speaker 6: at the end of the day, like, I hate that
Speaker 6: this even has to be said. But if your partner,
Speaker 6: like we are talking about your quality of life here,
Speaker 6: and not having an equitable partnership deeply, deeply, deeply negatively
Speaker 6: impacts your quality of life. And if your partner does
Speaker 6: not care about your quality of life enough to educate
Speaker 6: himself enough to step up enough to even try, like
Speaker 6: we're not again, we're not going for perfection. We're just
Speaker 6: going for good, safe efforts. If he doesn't even care
Speaker 6: enough about that to try them, Like, there's deeper rooted
Speaker 6: problems that need to be addressed that go past just
Speaker 6: the division of domestic labor.
Speaker 3: Awesome. I think so many valuable takeaways there and yeah,
Speaker 3: just powerful stuff. I think that you need to have
Speaker 3: another course. Hopefully that one's coming.
Speaker 6: Maybe we are, We're working on it.
Speaker 3: That is awesome. Do you in the meantime, and I
Speaker 3: know we have to wrap things up, but do you
Speaker 3: have any creators or authors like the one that came
Speaker 3: to mind first was maybe like Eve Rodsky, the author
Speaker 3: of fair Play, who we've had as a guest on
Speaker 3: our show as well. Are there others that like you've
Speaker 3: directed people too, or that your husband was pulling up
Speaker 3: on Instagram?
Speaker 5: Yes?
Speaker 6: Okay, so three right off the bat page Colonnel. Her
Speaker 6: account is she is a page turner. She talks a
Speaker 6: lot about this, especially in regards to working mom.
Speaker 5: I would also say, Zach.
Speaker 6: I'm trying to get his exact handle here, Zach Watson.
Speaker 6: His account is real Zach Think Share, and he talks
Speaker 6: about it from a man's perspective. He calls himself a
Speaker 6: recovering man child and his videos are awesome and is
Speaker 6: really really informative coming from like again, the man's perspective
Speaker 6: side of things. And then another one is Laura Danger
Speaker 6: and her handle is I think it's just Laura Danger.
Speaker 7: Hold on, let me see.
Speaker 6: Oh it's not word. Her handle is that darn chat.
Speaker 6: And she talked a lot about mental load, invisible labor,
Speaker 6: and how it shows up in a lot of different ways,
Speaker 6: like in our society, in our world, and challenging different
Speaker 6: assumptions that we have and that we've all grown up with,
Speaker 6: and how these very very small scenes end up actually
Speaker 6: being big scenes. So again, it's all different sides of it.
Speaker 6: Their content is really short, really bite sized, really manageable,
Speaker 6: and that's why I found it helpful for him to
Speaker 6: just consume just a few minutes every day from a
Speaker 6: few different voices, so it wasn't all on me to
Speaker 6: do the massive mental and emotional labor of explaining this all.
Speaker 3: Now awesome, I love that. Well, do you have a
Speaker 3: love of the week for us? Sam? I guess I
Speaker 3: can always start, just because I'd like to give our
Speaker 3: guests a minute to kind of like think of what
Speaker 3: you're going to come up with. So I'm going to
Speaker 3: be like super basic and just say that, like this
Speaker 3: time of year, it's not fall at all, and therefore
Speaker 3: I want to bake all the fall things. So I
Speaker 3: made sweet potato muffins, and it was like, made me
Speaker 3: so happy because I can. I live in Florida, so
Speaker 3: I'm like, I can pretend it's not disgusting out and
Speaker 3: then we have some sort of seasonality and it made
Speaker 3: me so happy. So sweet potato muffins for the wind.
Speaker 5: I love that.
Speaker 6: I would think mine would be. We have a lot
Speaker 6: of beautiful bike trails around where we live, and normally
Speaker 6: I like to do bike rides in the evening, but
Speaker 6: now that it's cooling down just a little bit, I
Speaker 6: can go and do a quick bike right during the
Speaker 6: day in the sunshine, and it is just like life giving.
Speaker 5: I love riding my bike.
Speaker 3: I love it. I won't take it as you've rubbing
Speaker 3: it in And I'm just kidding. We have no fall.
Speaker 3: I'm totally kidding. Tell our listeners where they can find you,
Speaker 3: including maybe some upcoming projects you've hinted that, but also
Speaker 3: where they can get their hands on this audio course
Speaker 3: that everybody is raving about.
Speaker 5: Yes, absolutely so.
Speaker 6: I'm on Instagram at sam kelly Underscore World. On there
Speaker 6: you can find the links in my bio. You can
Speaker 6: get a free guide which will give you the basic
Speaker 6: structure of how to do this talks about, like we said,
Speaker 6: the Big Three, how to get your kids to notice,
Speaker 6: So I would hop on that Big Guy three Big
Speaker 6: Guy Free guide in the link in my bio. There
Speaker 6: is also a weight list. I open the course once
Speaker 6: a quarter. We just barely close it for enrollment, so
Speaker 6: it will be opening again in November. If you want
Speaker 6: to hop on the weight list and link in my bio,
Speaker 6: that's where you're going to get a special exclusive discount
Speaker 6: when it opens. You will also get first access and
Speaker 6: first to know.
Speaker 7: When it opens. And no, my and I am also.
Speaker 6: Working on a book, so we're finishing up the book
Speaker 6: proposal right now and then we're going to be submitting
Speaker 6: it to publishers. That is a huge long project though,
Speaker 6: so we're looking at like twenty twenty seven, but that's
Speaker 6: something that's in the works as well.
Speaker 3: Awesome, Well congrats Sam. I think you struck a chord
Speaker 3: here and I think our listeners are going to love this,
Speaker 3: so we so appreciate you coming on.
Speaker 7: Oh my gosh, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2: Well we are back, Sarah. I was interviewing Sam Kelly
Speaker 2: about how to create little cycle breakers, the kids who
Speaker 2: notice what needs to be done around the house and
Speaker 2: help out with it. So lots of great tips there.
Speaker 2: This week's listener question comes from someone who wants to
Speaker 2: talk about doing fun things with teens. So, how do
Speaker 2: you deal with teens not wanting to do a bunch
Speaker 2: of stuff with their families? Are generally spending less time
Speaker 2: with us because they're so busy with school and activities.
Speaker 2: Obviously it's great for kids to be involved with things.
Speaker 2: This listener reports that she does plan trips and a
Speaker 2: couple of family outings on occasion, but overall, the loss
Speaker 2: of time with them is hard, along with the idea
Speaker 2: that they won't be living at home much longer. So
Speaker 2: what our way is to spend time with big kids
Speaker 2: that they will actually go for?
Speaker 1: Sarah?
Speaker 3: Yeah, so, well, first, I just think it's important to
Speaker 3: acknowledge that this is very much normal. It is not
Speaker 3: an indicator that your family dynamics are bad or that
Speaker 3: you're doing the wrong thing. Like at a certain point,
Speaker 3: many teens are going to be attracted more to things
Speaker 3: in like the friend and peer sphere and less excited
Speaker 3: about doing things with family. Of course, there's exceptions, but
Speaker 3: that's like in the books I've read so far, I'm
Speaker 3: like kind of conditioned to expect that, and I think
Speaker 3: not taking things personally is probably part of what needs
Speaker 3: to happen, and then savoring the family time when it
Speaker 3: does happen. I think family trips are awesome for this because,
Speaker 3: I mean, if everyone's flown to Montana together, you've got
Speaker 3: a captive audience for family activities. But also making sure
Speaker 3: that those trips are things that your kids are excited about.
Speaker 3: And then I also feel like you can pay attention
Speaker 3: to times you have with kids that aren't necessarily an activity,
Speaker 3: but it can still add up to a lot of time.
Speaker 3: Time in the car. For example, you can have some
Speaker 3: great conversations, you can listen to their music, you can
Speaker 3: talk about what's going on, or even like if they
Speaker 3: have a sports event and you end up having to
Speaker 3: accompany them to a tournament that's far away, Like that's
Speaker 3: a lot of quality time. It might not be the
Speaker 3: quote together in as family outing that you plan when
Speaker 3: everybody was little, but it absolutely still counts and you know,
Speaker 3: should be savored and appreciated for what it is.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think doing one on one time
Speaker 2: for things that kid wants to do are great. So trips, excursions, concerts,
Speaker 2: just runs to Starbucks or whatever their treat is. Like,
Speaker 2: you know, if they love going to Starbucks, then probably
Speaker 2: they're willing to go with mom to Starbucks, especially if
Speaker 2: you're paying, So that is something you can do. Also,
Speaker 2: just trying to linger when you can, Like if a
Speaker 2: kid is talking to you at dinner, much as we
Speaker 2: want everyone to do the dishes, you don't have to
Speaker 2: get up and do it right. Then you can sit
Speaker 2: there and just sit for a while and let the
Speaker 2: conversation keep going and get to clearing the table a
Speaker 2: little bit later, because that can all possibly wait. So
Speaker 2: just kind of noticing when there is a moment of
Speaker 2: connection and then letting it keep going for a reasonable
Speaker 2: amount of time can be good. But yeah, I think
Speaker 2: there's nothing wrong with kids wanting independence. I think there's
Speaker 2: actually been some interesting shifts of kids having less independence
Speaker 2: these days, and I don't know if that's all a
Speaker 2: great thing. I mean, it's nice that kids are probably
Speaker 2: closer to their parents now than they were in past generations,
Speaker 2: but at some point we all do need to be
Speaker 2: our own, independent adult people. So I was quite happy
Speaker 2: that my four older kids this summer all got at
Speaker 2: least a week away from home to kind of experience
Speaker 2: their life apart from us and sort of get to
Speaker 2: know themselves in a situation that is not at home.
Speaker 1: I think that's good for them.
Speaker 2: But of course I love spending time with them when
Speaker 2: I can as well, So we've been doing a lot
Speaker 2: of things when we can or Olivia Roduno concerts, Starbucks trips. Yeah,
Speaker 2: one thing I would say, I heard this step. I
Speaker 2: haven't really tried this yet, but if your kid has
Speaker 2: a tendency to just put their headphones on when they're
Speaker 2: in the car, like put their AirPods in their ear
Speaker 2: and listen to their music, suggest that they be the
Speaker 2: DJ for the car and that you all listen to
Speaker 2: whatever it is that they would be listening into their headphones. Now,
Speaker 2: if it turns out that what they're listening to is
Speaker 2: like horrible, misogynistic, terrible violent stuff, then obviously you have
Speaker 2: to k have a conversation about that. And you're like,
Speaker 2: I would prefer you'd be not listening to that, and
Speaker 2: we're definitely not listening to this as a group. But
Speaker 2: that's probably a conversation that should be had in general
Speaker 2: as well. But as long as their music is not
Speaker 2: so terrible, probably they could be the DJ for the
Speaker 2: car and that would at least get the AirPods out
Speaker 2: and bring the possibility of spending the moment together in
Speaker 2: the car.
Speaker 3: Our morning djit we do that exact same thing. So
Speaker 3: I actually usually hand the kids the phone and they'll
Speaker 3: like pick the next song and they like to alternate
Speaker 3: and the mixes we have. Cameron's into the song the
Speaker 3: Neil Diamond classic Sweet Caroline, which he sings.
Speaker 1: Well, that's fun to sing a lot like Exact.
Speaker 3: Boy Party except an Opti hire. Then it will be
Speaker 3: sometime it's like the funniest thing I've ever heard, and
Speaker 3: then Genevieve's like Barbie soundtrack. Then Annabel is playing her
Speaker 3: supreen and carpet. I mean it is like just the
Speaker 3: funniest like mix. There's a lot of laughter and it's
Speaker 3: a lot of fun.
Speaker 2: So yes, yeah, well that sounds great.
Speaker 1: That sounds great.
Speaker 2: Good way to get older kids involved and I'll be
Speaker 2: experiencing it together.
Speaker 1: Well, this has been best of both worlds.
Speaker 2: We'll be back next week with more and making work
Speaker 2: and life fit together.
Speaker 3: Thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah at the
Speaker 3: shoebox dot com or at the underscore shoebox on Instagram.
Speaker 2: And you can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com.
Speaker 2: This has been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please
Speaker 2: join us next time for more on making work and
Speaker 2: life work together