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Speaker 1: And then I leaned forward and whispered to him. I

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Speaker 1: used to think that you were a good guy who

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Speaker 1: sometimes wore a monster mask. But what I realized that

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Speaker 1: you're actually a monster who sometimes wears a good guy mask.

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Speaker 1: He goes absolutely white, and he starts a sweat, and

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Speaker 1: they whispers, I'm glad you know.

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Speaker 2: I'm Andrea Gunning. And this is Betrayal, A show about

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Speaker 2: the people we trust the most and the deceptions that

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Speaker 2: change everything. After the death of her husband, Brad, Carrie

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Speaker 2: McAvoy retired early from her career as a clinical psychologist

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Speaker 2: at the age of fifty one, she started a whirlwind

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Speaker 2: relationship with Caesar. He showered her with affection and brought

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Speaker 2: her into his Mexican culture. It would be a second

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Speaker 2: marriage that promised adventure and expanded her horizons. With all

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Speaker 2: three of her sons grown, she and Caesar decided to

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Speaker 2: start a new life together in Mexico, so she sold

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Speaker 2: her house in the US and packed her bags.

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Speaker 1: You're basically consolidating a whole life, accumulated of all my

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Speaker 1: adult life down to a few like we took ten

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Speaker 1: pieces of luggage. That's it.

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Speaker 2: They planned to make a living down there by renting

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Speaker 2: vacation properties in the Yucatan Peninsula, Crystal blue waters, white

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Speaker 2: sand beaches. It was the life Brad wanted for her.

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Speaker 1: I felt like I was trying to build on the

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Speaker 1: best I had with bread, but make it better.

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Speaker 2: She and Caesar became fifty to fifty owners in their

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Speaker 2: new business and bought four rental properties together, all bankrolled

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Speaker 2: by Carrie.

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Speaker 1: So the value of Brad's life insurance has now been

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Speaker 1: spent on properties.

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Speaker 2: But the week before their wedding, Caesar made a shocking disclosure.

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Speaker 1: He starts to cry, and he says, it just hit

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Speaker 1: me because we're going to get married five days that

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Speaker 1: I'm still married. We can't get married this week. And

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Speaker 1: I said what.

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Speaker 2: Caesar had an explanation.

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Speaker 1: And he said that last marriage was so bad, so contentious,

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Speaker 1: that when I got out, I literally put it behind

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Speaker 1: me and I forgot I'm married to her. I never

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Speaker 1: finalized it. Even though we've not been living together for

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Speaker 1: two years. I'm not divorced.

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Speaker 2: Caesar's last marriage was a rollercoaster. When he finally ended things,

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Speaker 2: she literally refused to let him go.

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Speaker 1: They described how she had clung to his feet as

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Speaker 1: he tried to get out of the house and he

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Speaker 1: said it was really traumatic, and he just put it

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Speaker 1: behind him. I've repressed stuff, I've forgot stuff. I can

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Speaker 1: see how that can happen, But I'm not going to

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Speaker 1: be intimate with somebody who's married. Now that I know,

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Speaker 1: I'm horrified, like speechless and feel so humiliated. I don't

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Speaker 1: even know what to say. This puts it in a

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Speaker 1: different category.

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Speaker 2: But she had already invested so much emotionally and financially

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Speaker 2: in this new life with him, too much to let

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Speaker 2: one piece of paper derail their plans. Plus, he was

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Speaker 2: adamant that he would get it sorted out and they'd

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Speaker 2: be able to get married the following month. So reluctantly

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Speaker 2: Carrie let it go.

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Speaker 1: We got up and had a nice next day together

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Speaker 1: and sort of moved on, and.

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Speaker 2: His divorce did go through A month later. After that,

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Speaker 2: he and Carrie officially tied the knot.

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Speaker 1: So get married. It's a beautiful wedding, and then we

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Speaker 1: plan a honeymoon. A month later, In a nod.

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Speaker 2: To Brad's legacy, she and Caesar went to Jamaica for

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Speaker 2: their honeymoon. They stayed in a new part of the island.

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Speaker 2: It was a full circle moment for Carrie, a reminder

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Speaker 2: of how far she'd come in the two years since

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Speaker 2: Brad passed away.

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Speaker 1: We get to Jamaica, we check in and that night

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Speaker 1: we have a great dinner together, kind of romantic, and

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Speaker 1: we're walking back to the hotel room and I'm excited

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Speaker 1: because I bought something special. We get into the room,

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Speaker 1: he flops down on the bed and I go into

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Speaker 1: the bathroom to change into something sexy.

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Speaker 2: Starting with night one, their honeymoon did not go to plan.

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Speaker 1: I hear the TV turn on, and I'm thinking, what's

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Speaker 1: a little weird that's not really the focus of the

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Speaker 1: honeymoon night? And I come out and I pose in

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Speaker 1: front of the TV, you know, sort of like I'm

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Speaker 1: better looking than the TV. And he actually almost cranes

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Speaker 1: his neck around me, and I'm stunned. I can't believe

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Speaker 1: that he did that. And I'm now feeling underdressed, overexposed,

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Speaker 1: and just I can feel the goosebumps raising on my

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Speaker 1: body from the chill. He says, just come up next

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Speaker 1: to me. He passed the bed, Come up next to me.

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Speaker 1: I want to watch this, okay, So I do, and

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Speaker 1: I'm tired. It's been a long day try and I

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Speaker 1: doze off and I don't even remember falling asleep, but

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Speaker 1: I fall asleep and I come to and I can't

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Speaker 1: tell how much time has passed, but the TV is

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Speaker 1: still playing and he's on his phone. I find that

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Speaker 1: kind of eye and I'm curious to why he's so

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Speaker 1: interested in on his phone. And as I'm trying to

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Speaker 1: like crane my neck without really letting him know that

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Speaker 1: I'm awake, I see that he's watching something. And at

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Speaker 1: first my eyes are really blurry because I'm just waking up.

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Speaker 1: And then i can tell he's watching pornography. And I'm thinking, okay,

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Speaker 1: you opted out of having a moment with me to

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Speaker 1: watch pornography. That is soul crushing.

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Speaker 2: Early on in their relationship, she asked Caesar if he

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Speaker 2: watched pornography. He told her he didn't. Now on their honeymoon,

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Speaker 2: she saw that he did. She observed him for another moment.

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Speaker 2: Caesar is still not noticing that she had woken up.

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Speaker 1: And while I'm watching him watch, there's a text that

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Speaker 1: comes in and he opens the textbox and he responds,

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Speaker 1: and then he looks for a photo. He sends a

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Speaker 1: quick photo of himself. Then she sends a photo back

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Speaker 1: of her. I mean, they're just like normal photos. It

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Speaker 1: wasn't like sexting. But on the other hand, I'm thinking

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Speaker 1: my new husband is sending a photo of himself to

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Speaker 1: another woman. Yeah, no, you don't do that.

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Speaker 2: Even though they were just selfies, it felt strange, and

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Speaker 2: he was sending them to a woman she'd never heard

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Speaker 2: of before.

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Speaker 1: So I make like I'm waking up. He then plays along, Oh,

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Speaker 1: it's so wonderful you're awake. Oh, I love you so much,

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Speaker 1: And instead of like pulling me into an embrace to

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Speaker 1: kiss me, pull me into something intimate, he starts to

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Speaker 1: touch me like he's doing something to me, but we're

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Speaker 1: not doing it really together. And this just on the

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Speaker 1: tails of what I just saw, feels awful, like the

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Speaker 1: last thing I want to be doing. So I feel

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Speaker 1: like I was like trying to scoot away from him,

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Speaker 1: and I just said the same thing that he said

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Speaker 1: to me, is come sit next to me. I'm really tired.

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Speaker 1: Let's just sleep tonight. It's been a lot, it's a

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Speaker 1: long day. So he does we fall asleep.

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Speaker 2: But Carrie did not fall asleep. It was the first

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Speaker 2: night of their honeymoon and she was lying awake, staring

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Speaker 2: at the ceiling.

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Speaker 1: Feeling really hurt and shocked, like there needs to be

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Speaker 1: limits in this relationship and that's not an okay kind

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Speaker 1: of relationship.

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Speaker 2: She decided to address what she'd seen over dinner.

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Speaker 1: They said, Hey, I noticed you're on your phone, and

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Speaker 1: I noticed you're watching a video. And then also you're

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Speaker 1: texting some woman and you send her a photo of yourself.

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Speaker 1: I'm not okay with that.

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Speaker 2: Then Caesar became very quiet.

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Speaker 1: He just kind of stays stiff, like, not okay. We

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Speaker 1: have dinner, we're not really talking. And when we walked

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Speaker 1: back to our hotel room, he stopped and he stood

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Speaker 1: in the doorway and he says, I'm going to be

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Speaker 1: heading out. I'll be back in a couple hours, and

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Speaker 1: he turns around. The door shut. So I watched the

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Speaker 1: door shut, and I'm aghast, like mouth dropped, shocked, and

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Speaker 1: I think to myself, this is punishment. He's punishing me.

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Speaker 2: She spent the next few hours pacing the hotel room,

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Speaker 2: hoping she was wrong, hoping he just needed time to

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Speaker 2: cool off.

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Speaker 1: He comes in a couple hours later, and I'm tense.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, I have no idea what mindset he's going

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Speaker 1: to be in and he goes, hey, let's go out

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Speaker 1: to the pool. Let's go swimming. I said, okay, and

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Speaker 1: he holds my hand as we walk to the pool

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Speaker 1: and we get out there. He says, look at the sky.

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Speaker 1: The moon's out tonight. Remember the night I got engaged

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Speaker 1: with you. The moon's out that night. And he says,

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Speaker 1: couples shouldn't fight. And you're right, I shouldn't have that

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Speaker 1: kind of relationship with a woman. That's inappropriate. I'm really sorry.

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Speaker 1: Why don't we put the phones away for the rest

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Speaker 1: of the trip and just focus on us? And I

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Speaker 1: start to cry and I feel, oh, he gets it.

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Speaker 1: We're on the same page. This is going to be good.

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Speaker 1: We make a big deal the next day putting the

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Speaker 1: owns away. The next seven eight days are.

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Speaker 2: Great until the last day of the honeymoon. It was

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Speaker 2: four am and Carrie woke up to a notification on

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Speaker 2: her phone.

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Speaker 1: I can see on my phone that there's a text

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Speaker 1: message from a stranger from a woman, and she writes,

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Speaker 1: so you're married to Caesar. I guess the joke's just

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Speaker 1: not on me, it's on you too. I've been dating

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Speaker 1: it for the past three months. Then she proceeds to

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Speaker 1: start to describe, is that your sunglass case in the car?

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Speaker 1: It's floral? Are you the person that called him at

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Speaker 1: three am in the morning a few months ago? Because

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Speaker 1: I was with him, I was in bed beside him.

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Speaker 2: That was her sunglasses case. And they were in a

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Speaker 2: long distance relationship before this, and Carrie knew she had

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Speaker 2: called him late sometimes. With Caesar asleep next to her,

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Speaker 2: she began to panic, was this woman telling the truth?

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Speaker 1: As I'm laying there, I literally had the flash. I

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Speaker 1: don't know him, He's a stranger. I went into the

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Speaker 1: bathroom and my body just dumped. It was sick. I

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Speaker 1: was sick. What do I do? My house is sold,

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Speaker 1: my car is gone. I have property now in Mexico

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Speaker 1: that expects me to open. I'm mid visa process. I

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Speaker 1: have to finish this or I lose all that effort.

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Speaker 1: And I'm literally in transition as if I'm a wire artist,

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Speaker 1: and I let go of one wire and I'm jumping

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Speaker 1: to the next, and I'm trying to grab and I'm midjump,

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Speaker 1: and I'm realizing everything that I thought I was building

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Speaker 1: on didn't exist.

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Speaker 2: She shook her new husband awake and showed him the messages.

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Speaker 1: I say to Caesar, Caesar, Caesar, A woman wrote me.

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Speaker 1: She says, she knows you. His first reaction was stop

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Speaker 1: reading that, Stop reading that. And my thought was, you know,

200
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Speaker 1: you know her, you know what I'm talking about. I

201
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Speaker 1: fled the room. I split for the ocean and went

202
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Speaker 1: down to the sand and I start circling, literally circling.

203
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Speaker 1: It was early, like six am, six point thirty, and

204
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Speaker 1: there was a runner who run past me. I much

205
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Speaker 1: look like a crazy woman, like I don't know what

206
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Speaker 1: to do. I'm midjump, I'm in transition. I have no

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Speaker 1: home in the United States. I don't know what to

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Speaker 1: do here.

209
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Speaker 2: So she called a close friend who, like her, also

210
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Speaker 2: worked in mental health.

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Speaker 1: And she says, Carrie, I think he's traumatized. I think

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Speaker 1: there's something else going on. I really suggest that you

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Speaker 1: go back and talk to him. I'm thinking, okay, she

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Speaker 1: knows him. In fact, she's the person that married us.

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Speaker 1: Maybe there's something more here. Plus she's a therapist. So

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Speaker 1: I go back in and I get into the room

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Speaker 1: and he's standing there, white, shaking, and he just looked

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Speaker 1: at me and he said, I just wanted to know

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Speaker 1: what ANT like to have an affair. And then he said,

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Speaker 1: you know, I have problems because I've told you that

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Speaker 1: I've came from a troubled home and that there have

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Speaker 1: been issues. And I don't know why I did it.

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Speaker 1: I know it was done, but I don't know why

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Speaker 1: I did that.

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Speaker 2: Then he asked for her help. He felt like his

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Speaker 2: behavior was out of control and needed professional support. In fact,

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Speaker 2: he had asked his ex wives for their help too.

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Speaker 1: Then they didn't believe me, they laughed at me.

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Speaker 2: If anyone could help him, it was Carrie. She believed

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Speaker 2: in recovery.

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Speaker 1: I also, as a psychologist, really believed in the capacity

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Speaker 1: of people to change. Why would I spend my whole

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Speaker 1: life doing what I did if I didn't believe people

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Speaker 1: could actually have a conversion experience.

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Speaker 2: As soon as the honeymoon ended, Carrie started looking for

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Speaker 2: a psychologist, a specialist who could help with trauma in

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Speaker 2: fidelity and deception. And she got them an appointment the

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Speaker 2: very next day.

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Speaker 1: And she sees us. She says, Carrie, these issues are

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Speaker 1: really big. He needs residential care and I'm thinking residential

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Speaker 1: care or moving. Plus who's going to pay for that?

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Speaker 1: This is not covered by insurance? And he needs months.

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Speaker 1: I've worked in the system. I know how much it

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Speaker 1: costs for psychiatric care. This is going to add up

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Speaker 1: to probably close to one hundred thousand dollars in treatment costs.

246
00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:28,800
Speaker 2: Instead of long term residential care. They planned for a

247
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Speaker 2: three day intensive program for couples and crisis and they

248
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Speaker 2: flew there right away.

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Speaker 1: So we walk into the intensive program and it was

250
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Speaker 1: built on accountability model. The focus is more of what

251
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Speaker 1: are you going to do? What's the reality of your situation?

252
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Speaker 1: Do you have a plan in place? They're trying to

253
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Speaker 1: help us really think this through.

254
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Speaker 2: Although their program was meant for couples to attend together,

255
00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:54,079
Speaker 2: where both individuals or promise treatment and support, Carrie felt

256
00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:56,360
Speaker 2: like her pain wasn't being seen.

257
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Speaker 1: But we go through the three days and it becomes

258
00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:04,360
Speaker 1: really clear to me that I'm invisible here. This treatment's

259
00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:07,200
Speaker 1: about him, and yet I feel like my whole world's

260
00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:14,600
Speaker 1: been torn apart, that I've been shattered. There's two people here. Yes,

261
00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:17,400
Speaker 1: he was the one who acted out, but I'm the

262
00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:21,360
Speaker 1: one who's suffering the consequences. What about me?

263
00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:25,960
Speaker 2: Caesar left the program feeling clearheaded and committed to Carrie.

264
00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:29,840
Speaker 2: He had an accountability plan and an outpatient counselor to

265
00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:33,560
Speaker 2: check in with him every week, but Carrie felt more

266
00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:34,600
Speaker 2: confused than ever.

267
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Speaker 1: We walk out of the program after three days, and

268
00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:40,120
Speaker 1: I feel like, well, he has a better direction, he

269
00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:44,360
Speaker 1: seems helped, But I'm now more scared than ever, and

270
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Speaker 1: I'm going into a country that I don't think has

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Speaker 1: this kind of care available. All I know is now

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Speaker 1: I don't know how much. I don't know, because if

273
00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:55,040
Speaker 1: that's what they did, tell me, this is like a problem,

274
00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:57,440
Speaker 1: like an iceberg. You just saw a tip, but you

275
00:14:57,480 --> 00:14:59,560
Speaker 1: don't know how deep this goes or how big this is.

276
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Speaker 1: So all that you did for me is to let

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Speaker 1: me know there's a whole lot more to this that

278
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Speaker 1: you don't know, and I don't know what to do.

279
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Speaker 1: I'm in a mid leap and I don't know what

280
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Speaker 1: I'm in for.

281
00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:30,800
Speaker 2: After leaving the three day treatment program, Carrie and Caesar

282
00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:33,440
Speaker 2: continued with their plan to move into a new apartment

283
00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:36,480
Speaker 2: imply a Del Carmen and get their business off the ground.

284
00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:39,520
Speaker 1: We move into our first apartment and we furnish it.

285
00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:43,680
Speaker 1: We're watching the construction of the next two and trying

286
00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:45,880
Speaker 1: to get the business going, you know, get our properties

287
00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:47,040
Speaker 1: listed on Airbnb.

288
00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:52,200
Speaker 2: Besides starting their business, their main priority was continuing Caesar's treatment,

289
00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:54,360
Speaker 2: and it seemed to be working for him.

290
00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:57,320
Speaker 1: In that period of time. It actually gets good, it

291
00:15:57,360 --> 00:16:00,640
Speaker 1: gets quiet. You know, he's working a program. He does

292
00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:03,440
Speaker 1: his weekly thing. I do my weekly thing. It feels

293
00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:06,120
Speaker 1: like a partnership. We're buying furnits together, we're setting up

294
00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:08,720
Speaker 1: a house, kids are coming in for Christmas.

295
00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:12,920
Speaker 2: With Caesar's commitment to recovery, Carrie felt validated in her

296
00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:15,800
Speaker 2: decision to give him another chance and get him help.

297
00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:20,440
Speaker 2: He was really trying. Their life in Mexico was finally

298
00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:23,320
Speaker 2: coming together. At night, they would go up to their

299
00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:26,520
Speaker 2: penthouse roof and look at the stars.

300
00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:29,720
Speaker 1: And the stars are out and there's actually even falling stars,

301
00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:32,960
Speaker 1: and we're talking to each other and kissing each other

302
00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:35,240
Speaker 1: and talking about how beautiful this is. And had like

303
00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:38,800
Speaker 1: a little blanket on that platio, just really really lovely.

304
00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:44,240
Speaker 2: After a few months, their business started to take off.

305
00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:47,480
Speaker 1: The properties are now coming online. The business is off

306
00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:50,640
Speaker 1: to a good start, and I feel really optimistic about

307
00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:51,160
Speaker 1: all of this.

308
00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:54,120
Speaker 2: But their relationship on the men, they were proving to

309
00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:58,200
Speaker 2: be strong business partners. They settled into a daily routine.

310
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Speaker 1: He would set the alarm super early in the morning.

311
00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:03,040
Speaker 1: Then we would read something together, talk to each other,

312
00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:05,480
Speaker 1: and then we'd get dressed and get going for our day.

313
00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:09,520
Speaker 1: We'd run from appointment to appointment. But there's another half

314
00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:11,320
Speaker 1: of the company that had to be run, and that

315
00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:14,840
Speaker 1: is the customer end, who's making all the emails and

316
00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:18,040
Speaker 1: it's corresponding with guests. So I'd manage that at night,

317
00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:20,880
Speaker 1: and then we do all the businesses together in the day.

318
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Speaker 1: So basically I was like doing two jobs one day.

319
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Speaker 2: While running around town to manage the properties.

320
00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:31,000
Speaker 1: I start to suddenly vomit. I mean like I'm throwing

321
00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:34,879
Speaker 1: up saliva, and it's really strange. I'd never seen anything

322
00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:38,439
Speaker 1: like it before. He calmly hands me a grocery bag

323
00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:42,040
Speaker 1: to vomit in, and then we never talk about it again,

324
00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:44,000
Speaker 1: and we just went on for the rest of the day.

325
00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:49,480
Speaker 2: And then she began noticing other symptoms.

326
00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:53,360
Speaker 1: I have really severe diarrhea, real strange diarrhea that I'd

327
00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:58,159
Speaker 1: never seen before. It's water, it's clear water. It frightens

328
00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:01,840
Speaker 1: me because I've never seen this before. And I had

329
00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:04,439
Speaker 1: white lines, like you hit your fingernails as a hammer.

330
00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:07,520
Speaker 1: I was searching for what causes white lines across all

331
00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:10,040
Speaker 1: the fingernails. They're called nasee lines.

332
00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:12,000
Speaker 2: And it only got worse.

333
00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:15,760
Speaker 1: My toe nails were falling off, and my year and

334
00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:18,560
Speaker 1: was now dark like tea and frothing.

335
00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:21,399
Speaker 2: So they went to the er.

336
00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:24,159
Speaker 1: They take one look at me, and they hospitalized me.

337
00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:28,960
Speaker 1: And while I'm admitted, the nurse comes up and says,

338
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Speaker 1: you don't understand. You're super ill. Your white count is

339
00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:35,720
Speaker 1: extraordinarily high, but we can't find the infection. You're very,

340
00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:39,240
Speaker 1: very sick. You don't understand how sick you are. Caesar

341
00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:40,919
Speaker 1: comes in that night to sit next to me, and

342
00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:42,800
Speaker 1: he sits there and he goes. I realized something today.

343
00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:44,520
Speaker 1: I realized if something were to happen to you, I

344
00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:49,720
Speaker 1: would really miss you. That's a weird thing to say.

345
00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:54,720
Speaker 2: After a few nights in the hospital with ivy antibiotics,

346
00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:58,639
Speaker 2: Carrie was feeling better. The doctors ran dozens of tests,

347
00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:02,879
Speaker 2: but ultimately could didn't figure out what was causing Carrie's symptoms.

348
00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:06,280
Speaker 1: But I get discharged and we continue to kind of

349
00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:09,520
Speaker 1: do normal business, you know, running day to day life.

350
00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:14,520
Speaker 2: Caesar thought Carrie's sudden illness could be stress related. After all,

351
00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:18,720
Speaker 2: she'd had an incredibly busy year, so they decided to

352
00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:22,159
Speaker 2: go on a weekend get away to relax and reconnect

353
00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:22,720
Speaker 2: with each other.

354
00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:26,440
Speaker 1: So we go to this resort for Thanksgiving weekend, and

355
00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:28,560
Speaker 1: the first night we get there, he heads in for

356
00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:30,679
Speaker 1: a shower and while he does it, he leaves his

357
00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:34,280
Speaker 1: phone on the table. I don't know why, but I

358
00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:36,800
Speaker 1: pick up his phone and snoop for the first time

359
00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:37,439
Speaker 1: in my life.

360
00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:41,520
Speaker 2: She didn't find anything concerning in his photos or texts,

361
00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:45,080
Speaker 2: but then she opened his email.

362
00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:49,040
Speaker 1: This is the first I really heard of Maria.

363
00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:54,000
Speaker 2: Earlier that day, he'd written a long email to this woman.

364
00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:56,879
Speaker 2: It sounded like she was an old flame.

365
00:19:57,840 --> 00:19:59,560
Speaker 1: So I go rush into the bathroom to use it

366
00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:02,000
Speaker 1: for what he used to read the email? And I

367
00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:05,320
Speaker 1: opened the email. He says this marriage is a prison,

368
00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:08,800
Speaker 1: and he's talking about missing her.

369
00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:12,639
Speaker 2: He told Carrie he wasn't talking to any other women,

370
00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:16,679
Speaker 2: that the help he was getting was really working. What

371
00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:19,639
Speaker 2: did he mean this marriage was a prison. She'd been

372
00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:23,199
Speaker 2: working so hard to hold it together. She sent herself

373
00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:25,040
Speaker 2: a copy and then.

374
00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:27,760
Speaker 1: I send it to our counselor that we saw at

375
00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:30,520
Speaker 1: the intensive and say we need an immediate appointment. He's

376
00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:33,960
Speaker 1: breached his contract with me, and he said he wasn't

377
00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:38,080
Speaker 1: doing this. So we have a therapy appointment with our

378
00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:43,560
Speaker 1: therapist and he confronts Caesar about this, and Caesar doesn't

379
00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:45,959
Speaker 1: really have a good excuse. I was just dumb, I

380
00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:48,760
Speaker 1: was reminiscent. I was feeling nostalgic.

381
00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:52,119
Speaker 2: He said he'd been missing his ex Maria and that

382
00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:54,320
Speaker 2: they once spent time at the same beach.

383
00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:56,720
Speaker 1: He said, I thought of her and I reached out

384
00:20:56,800 --> 00:20:58,240
Speaker 1: or I shouldn't have. I know. It was really bad.

385
00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:00,679
Speaker 1: And then the therapist turns to me and says, so,

386
00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:03,200
Speaker 1: what are you going to do about this? What's your consequence?

387
00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:04,920
Speaker 1: We talked about this. You need to have a consequence,

388
00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:10,360
Speaker 1: and I'm thinking, what do you mean. I can't kick

389
00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:14,480
Speaker 1: him out. I'm in another country. We're starting this business up,

390
00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:17,920
Speaker 1: things are in construction. I depend on him. I can't

391
00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:19,399
Speaker 1: run a business without him.

392
00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:22,640
Speaker 2: So instead of a consequence, she opted for a solution.

393
00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:26,840
Speaker 1: So we both get into therapy. That's my solution. He

394
00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:29,439
Speaker 1: starts to see a therapist.

395
00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:31,359
Speaker 2: But that didn't quell her anxiety.

396
00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:34,720
Speaker 1: And I'm starting to feel increasingly paranoid enough so that

397
00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:37,320
Speaker 1: I'm now like trying to break into his phone, or

398
00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:40,120
Speaker 1: I'm now looking for a second phone. It's weird. I'm

399
00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:43,200
Speaker 1: like feeling crazy, and while all this is happening, he's

400
00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:46,600
Speaker 1: just getting harder to reach, feeling really distant to me.

401
00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:50,919
Speaker 2: He told Carrie he was going to his regular therapy appointments,

402
00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:52,560
Speaker 2: but then she found.

403
00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:56,080
Speaker 1: Out he didn't go. He apparently stashed the phone somewhere

404
00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:58,040
Speaker 1: near the therapist's house and did something else. I have

405
00:21:58,080 --> 00:21:59,720
Speaker 1: no idea what he did for the hour and a half,

406
00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:02,760
Speaker 1: but he didn't go. So I'm catching him in lies

407
00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:04,640
Speaker 1: now and I know something is up.

408
00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:08,480
Speaker 2: This lie was disturbing. She started to doubt if he

409
00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:12,879
Speaker 2: was really committed to changing. Repeatedly, catching Caesar and lies

410
00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:16,360
Speaker 2: became a vicious cycle. But then one day she got

411
00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:19,720
Speaker 2: news that pulled her out of it. Carrie had three

412
00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:22,720
Speaker 2: sons who were now all adults. Two of them were

413
00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:27,160
Speaker 2: living together, and one noticed his brother, Cameron, wasn't acting himself.

414
00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:30,920
Speaker 2: He was observing Cameron's behavior and called their mom out

415
00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:31,480
Speaker 2: of concern.

416
00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:36,200
Speaker 1: He said, he's been staring at the whole wall all weekend, Mom,

417
00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:39,399
Speaker 1: just staring at the wall, like ours staring at the wall.

418
00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:42,760
Speaker 1: And then he'll say weird things like he doesn't know

419
00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:45,639
Speaker 1: what time of the day it is, and I'm thinking, oh, no,

420
00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:50,680
Speaker 1: this is a serious neurological scien it's an emergency. I'm frightened.

421
00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:53,320
Speaker 1: This is bad. Something's really wrong.

422
00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:57,040
Speaker 2: She flew back to America to be with Cameron. When

423
00:22:57,040 --> 00:22:59,960
Speaker 2: she got to the hospital, all of her boys were there.

424
00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:02,040
Speaker 1: And they've been waiting for me. I can tell they've

425
00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:04,240
Speaker 1: been waiting for mom to show up. And he says, Mom,

426
00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:09,920
Speaker 1: it's leukemia. And then we follow in each other's arms

427
00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:12,760
Speaker 1: and just start to cry, and I think, oh, I've

428
00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:13,600
Speaker 1: been here before.

429
00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:16,520
Speaker 2: Cameron was scared.

430
00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:21,320
Speaker 1: He said, Mom, don't leave me, don't leave me, and

431
00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:24,159
Speaker 1: I say, I'm not going anywhere.

432
00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:28,760
Speaker 2: It wasn't even a decision for Carrie. She knew she

433
00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:31,280
Speaker 2: had to stay and take care of him. She spent

434
00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:33,720
Speaker 2: entire nights a week keeping an eye on her son's

435
00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:35,560
Speaker 2: health as he started chemotherapy.

436
00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:38,159
Speaker 1: But you have to see if the chemotherapy is going

437
00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:40,560
Speaker 1: to work. So he makes it through the first round,

438
00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:42,720
Speaker 1: which is a big deal. He has to be hospitalized.

439
00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:46,160
Speaker 1: It's given every twelve hours for five to seven days.

440
00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:50,800
Speaker 1: It's ron the clock chemotherapy. And meanwhile, the treatment team

441
00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:53,720
Speaker 1: tells me he's going to need this for upward to

442
00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:56,560
Speaker 1: eighteen months, and he needs you here. This is a

443
00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:58,840
Speaker 1: big thing and he's going to need your help.

444
00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:01,840
Speaker 2: Caesar had come with Carrie back to the US, and

445
00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:05,159
Speaker 2: right away she noticed that he was distant. He didn't

446
00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:08,520
Speaker 2: seem interested in staying in America long term or in

447
00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:13,760
Speaker 2: supporting Carrie and Cameron. Instead, Caesar started complaining he wanted

448
00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:15,919
Speaker 2: to go back to their life in Mexico.

449
00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:19,560
Speaker 1: He's telling me he's not staying. I can tell already.

450
00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:24,080
Speaker 2: One night, while Caesar was sleeping, his phone alarm started ringing,

451
00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:26,160
Speaker 2: so Carrie got up to shut it off.

452
00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:29,080
Speaker 1: So I go in to get the phone and turn

453
00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:31,879
Speaker 1: the alarm off. I passed through the pass code and

454
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:35,960
Speaker 1: it opens right up to the text messages. He'd been

455
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:38,600
Speaker 1: texting and had fallen asleep with it beside his head.

456
00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:43,520
Speaker 1: The messages between him and Maria, and it says my

457
00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:48,240
Speaker 1: sister had cancer. She's recovered, she's just fine. Her son

458
00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:50,240
Speaker 1: will be too. He's young, he's twenty eight, he's got

459
00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:54,440
Speaker 1: the advantage of youth on its side. And Caesar right back. So, yeah,

460
00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:56,560
Speaker 1: I know, but I got to be supportive for Carrie.

461
00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:59,440
Speaker 1: Carrie's really worried. That's not how she feels. And then

462
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:01,760
Speaker 1: he says, but I'll have to be careful because I'm

463
00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:03,720
Speaker 1: with her now a lot. We're gonna have to really

464
00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:08,119
Speaker 1: be careful around these conversations. And then she texts, but

465
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:11,280
Speaker 1: what I'm really concerned about is that Cameron's care is

466
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:13,560
Speaker 1: going to eat up your half of her money.

467
00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:18,200
Speaker 2: It was so callous, calculated even.

468
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:22,240
Speaker 1: Not only had he been betraying me and seeing women,

469
00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:26,560
Speaker 1: but he has been communicating with her about a lot,

470
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:30,080
Speaker 1: including the money and what's happening with the money, and

471
00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:31,240
Speaker 1: that there is this money.

472
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:34,919
Speaker 2: Reading these texts and seeing how dismissed if he was,

473
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:38,119
Speaker 2: of her son's care and the concern for Carrie's money

474
00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:42,640
Speaker 2: half of Brad's life insurance money finally sent her over

475
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:43,360
Speaker 2: the edge.

476
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:48,080
Speaker 1: It's money that paid out on Brad's death to a

477
00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:52,120
Speaker 1: person who never earned it, didn't know him, didn't love him,

478
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,640
Speaker 1: and is trying to exploit and manipulate me. He's going

479
00:25:55,680 --> 00:26:03,240
Speaker 1: to capitalize on Brad's death about enraging me. Hell no,

480
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:08,120
Speaker 1: I loved Bread. We spent thirty three years together. He

481
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:12,480
Speaker 1: died from something catastrophic. Be damned, you're gonna get half

482
00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:16,640
Speaker 1: of that I sat there with bread then morphine didn't work,

483
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:22,000
Speaker 1: and him pleading for another dose. Your half of Bred's

484
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:25,959
Speaker 1: life insurance. What do you mean your half? There is

485
00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:27,080
Speaker 1: no your half here.

486
00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:45,440
Speaker 2: After she saw text between Caesar and Maria, Carrie was furious.

487
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:49,439
Speaker 2: She finally saw Caesar for who he really was, or

488
00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:51,640
Speaker 2: at least she thought she had.

489
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:57,280
Speaker 1: We're at a restaurant having a meal, and I finally

490
00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:00,520
Speaker 1: say to him, you know what, this can't good for you.

491
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:02,280
Speaker 1: It's certainly not good for me. I think maybe we

492
00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:05,320
Speaker 1: need to separate, and I walk away. I get up,

493
00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:06,040
Speaker 1: and I walk out.

494
00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:10,480
Speaker 2: She spent a few hours alone to process everything, to

495
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:14,680
Speaker 2: grieve the life she envisioned with Caesar. After all, her

496
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:18,880
Speaker 2: first marriage was a fairy tale. It was solid, joyous,

497
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:22,800
Speaker 2: and honest. Eventually, she made her way home to continue

498
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:23,960
Speaker 2: the conversation with him.

499
00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:26,280
Speaker 1: I said, so, what's going on here? Do you want

500
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:29,360
Speaker 1: a divorce? He said, yes, I want a divorce.

501
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:32,720
Speaker 2: The following morning, they sat down at the breakfast table

502
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:36,680
Speaker 2: for the next hard conversation about what this divorce would

503
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:38,280
Speaker 2: mean for both of them financially.

504
00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:42,600
Speaker 1: He starts to list all the properties that the company owns,

505
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:46,080
Speaker 1: one by one, and next to them. He writes their

506
00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:49,320
Speaker 1: market value, and then he adds the column up in

507
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:51,600
Speaker 1: front of me. Thereraws a hard line, so hard that

508
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:54,080
Speaker 1: I think he's going to scratch into the wood table.

509
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:58,480
Speaker 1: That's how Fermi pressed. And he points at it that

510
00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:01,000
Speaker 1: that's what I mowed half of that. I have a

511
00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:03,800
Speaker 1: right to half of that. And I look at him

512
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:07,120
Speaker 1: and my mouth dropped, and I said, but that's Brad's legacy.

513
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:09,399
Speaker 1: That's what he gave to me and the kids to

514
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:13,080
Speaker 1: give me a new start. And he says, life's never

515
00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:15,880
Speaker 1: been fair to me, Why should it be fair to you.

516
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:23,600
Speaker 2: When Terry and Caesar sat down to discuss the terms

517
00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:26,240
Speaker 2: of their divorce, she watched her soon to be ex

518
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:29,199
Speaker 2: husband become an entirely different person.

519
00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:32,720
Speaker 1: He's basically saying he has a right to something he

520
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:36,520
Speaker 1: has never worked to own. He didn't come into this

521
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 1: relationship with anything, and he's going to walk out with

522
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:43,640
Speaker 1: half of everything brand and I has spent all these years,

523
00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 1: with all these decisions to get to he feels he

524
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:49,120
Speaker 1: has a right to it because life's not been fair.

525
00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:53,320
Speaker 1: I'm enraged. I can't believe this is the way this is,

526
00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:56,680
Speaker 1: and I can't believe this is actually legal. I'm speechless,

527
00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:01,160
Speaker 1: like floored. I feel like I don't know him. This

528
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:03,680
Speaker 1: is another level of a stranger. I don't know who

529
00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:04,360
Speaker 1: this person is.

530
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:07,280
Speaker 2: She was not going to let him take what Brad

531
00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:11,320
Speaker 2: had worked so hard for. After all, she'd only been

532
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:13,280
Speaker 2: with Caesar for three years.

533
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:16,280
Speaker 1: So my first thing is is I pull all the

534
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:19,640
Speaker 1: documents together, proving all the money I'd brought in, proving

535
00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:22,320
Speaker 1: that it had been my assets, my capital that had

536
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:24,760
Speaker 1: been invested. And I make an appointment with the best

537
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:28,320
Speaker 1: divorce attorney that I can find in town, and I

538
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:31,240
Speaker 1: sit down with her. Then she looks at me and says,

539
00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:35,200
Speaker 1: none of that matters. According to Mexican law, he's fifty

540
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:37,560
Speaker 1: to fifty owner unless you can prove he's broken the law.

541
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:44,120
Speaker 1: He's owed half, he's owed half. I realized, I better

542
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:46,320
Speaker 1: start making copies of the deeds to prove that I

543
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:48,640
Speaker 1: actually own the property. So I get smart and start

544
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:50,440
Speaker 1: making photocopies of stuff.

545
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:54,440
Speaker 2: Carrie was going back and forth in the US, taking

546
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:57,800
Speaker 2: care of her son Cameron, whose cancer treatment was going well,

547
00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:02,200
Speaker 2: and in Mexico untangling her marriage with Caesar. They moved

548
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:05,400
Speaker 2: into separate apartments while Carrie collected the evidence she needed

549
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:09,360
Speaker 2: for their divorce. Caesar had not invested any money into

550
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,720
Speaker 2: their shared business, but like the lawyer told her, her

551
00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:14,160
Speaker 2: case didn't look promising.

552
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:17,560
Speaker 1: I'm frantic. I don't know how to get the company back.

553
00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:20,720
Speaker 2: To add insult to injury. In the middle of this

554
00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:26,360
Speaker 2: financial untangling, she received news Caesar's ex Maria was back

555
00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:29,280
Speaker 2: in town and they were back together.

556
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:31,720
Speaker 1: And not only has she been in town, but they

557
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:34,240
Speaker 1: put a deposit on a property together. They're going to

558
00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:35,080
Speaker 1: buy a house together.

559
00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:39,200
Speaker 2: She and Caesar had rarely spoken throughout the divorce. They

560
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 2: were still in a bitter legal negotiation about dividing their business,

561
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 2: but one day she got a text from him. He

562
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:47,360
Speaker 2: sounded desperate.

563
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 1: It says, I'm in trouble. I've been realizing I'm out

564
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:56,040
Speaker 1: of control and I need help. I need to see you.

565
00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:57,160
Speaker 1: Can we meet.

566
00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 2: She thought maybe this was her chance to offer him

567
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:02,560
Speaker 2: a settlement that he would accept.

568
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:06,880
Speaker 1: And I'm thinking, this is the moment you've been waiting for.

569
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:11,000
Speaker 1: You have an opportunity to leverage your control of the company.

570
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:14,520
Speaker 1: He's going to need help from you. Use it. So

571
00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:17,200
Speaker 1: I meet him at a coffee shop nearby, and he

572
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 1: starts to tell me he's in trouble. And then I

573
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:22,560
Speaker 1: lean forward and a whisper to him. I used to

574
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:25,080
Speaker 1: think that you were a good guy who sometimes wore

575
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:28,120
Speaker 1: a monster mask. But what I realized that you're actually

576
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:32,840
Speaker 1: a monster who sometimes wears a good guy mask. He

577
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:37,280
Speaker 1: goes absolutely white and you start to sweat, and he whispers,

578
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:38,960
Speaker 1: I'm glad you know.

579
00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:44,120
Speaker 2: She finally saw him for who he really was, and

580
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:47,320
Speaker 2: she knew she needed an out. So Carrie told him

581
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:49,640
Speaker 2: she would help him through the next few months financially

582
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:52,080
Speaker 2: if he agreed to her terms.

583
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:56,239
Speaker 1: I say to him, I will help you, but I

584
00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 1: want all of the company back. You have to sign

585
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:03,600
Speaker 1: the company money over to me. And he says to me, so,

586
00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:07,120
Speaker 1: what are you thinking how much? And I said, how

587
00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:09,200
Speaker 1: about whatever I have sitting in the bank right now,

588
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:12,400
Speaker 1: which is one third of what he wants. You can

589
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:14,960
Speaker 1: have that. You can have the car that you're driving.

590
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:17,040
Speaker 1: I'll sell the other car. You can have whatever is

591
00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:19,440
Speaker 1: in the house. That's what you can have.

592
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:23,960
Speaker 2: Caesar didn't like the deal. He wanted to split their

593
00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:26,760
Speaker 2: company's profits for the next two years.

594
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:29,920
Speaker 1: And he leans into me and he whispers, you don't

595
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:31,000
Speaker 1: want to make me angry.

596
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:34,880
Speaker 2: In the moment she pretended to agree to the deal.

597
00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:38,160
Speaker 1: I shake his hand and I say, okay, I promise,

598
00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:41,400
Speaker 1: But in my head I thought I promised as much

599
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:43,840
Speaker 1: of a promise as any of your promises you've ever

600
00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:44,280
Speaker 1: made to me.

601
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:48,720
Speaker 2: She never intended to give him half the profits. Once

602
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:52,440
Speaker 2: he signed over the company, she sold it. In the end,

603
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:55,400
Speaker 2: she settled their divorce and paid him ount. It was

604
00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:59,400
Speaker 2: a big sum, but not nearly what he wanted, not

605
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:00,600
Speaker 2: even close.

606
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:03,240
Speaker 1: He never got any more money out of me out

607
00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:05,320
Speaker 1: in that settlement that I made, the agreement I made

608
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:06,320
Speaker 1: with him of the attorney.

609
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:09,800
Speaker 2: After selling the properties, she packed up her life in

610
00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:11,200
Speaker 2: Mexico for good.

611
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:15,000
Speaker 1: So I packed myself up. I throw most of it away.

612
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:17,880
Speaker 1: I don't want it. Everything that reminds me of this house,

613
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:21,080
Speaker 1: this life, this person, this relationship. I took to the

614
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:24,440
Speaker 1: trash and people scavengers came in and got it, and

615
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:26,120
Speaker 1: it was like, go for it, you can have it.

616
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:31,720
Speaker 2: She found evidence that he and Maria had been meeting

617
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:35,720
Speaker 2: up every few weeks for their entire relationship, even back

618
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:37,520
Speaker 2: to when she first met Caesar.

619
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:41,239
Speaker 1: And then when we break finally up, he's texting her

620
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:43,640
Speaker 1: about the half of the money and then he sees

621
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:45,800
Speaker 1: her right away, right after we break up.

622
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:49,760
Speaker 2: And she also found some things that made her suspect

623
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:55,000
Speaker 2: her entire relationship with Caesar had been orchestrated. Like he said,

624
00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:57,520
Speaker 2: he had been researching widows.

625
00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 1: I found cliff notes he kept on women. He literally

626
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:03,840
Speaker 1: was keeping track of stories, what to say, He planned

627
00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:07,440
Speaker 1: things out. The guy I met never existed.

628
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:12,480
Speaker 2: She found no cards with names of women he dated,

629
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:16,360
Speaker 2: and on the cards he'd written information about each of them.

630
00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:19,799
Speaker 2: This is one of those strange details she'll never get

631
00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:24,239
Speaker 2: an explanation for. Shocked, ashamed, and betrayed, Carrie flew back

632
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:27,600
Speaker 2: to the US. She focused on her family and settled down,

633
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 2: moving close to her son, whose cancer was in remission.

634
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:34,279
Speaker 2: She was rebuilding, but there was still one piece of

635
00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:39,120
Speaker 2: unfinished business. She wanted to know who Caesar really was,

636
00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:42,920
Speaker 2: so she tracked down his ex wives.

637
00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:45,480
Speaker 1: I get a hold of wife number one, who lived

638
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:48,080
Speaker 1: in Mexico, heard her version. Then I heard the one

639
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:50,520
Speaker 1: who'd been married seventeen years. But the one I couldn't

640
00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:53,160
Speaker 1: get a hold of was the one that was the shortest,

641
00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:55,879
Speaker 1: that he had the least to say about. So six

642
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:58,279
Speaker 1: months after I sent her a message, she contacts me

643
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:00,000
Speaker 1: and says, yeah, I'll have a phone call with you.

644
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:02,080
Speaker 1: And she says, because one of the things that happened

645
00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:05,879
Speaker 1: is I got really sick. I said what she said, Yeah,

646
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:07,799
Speaker 1: I got really sick and I don't know why. And

647
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:09,600
Speaker 1: I got better when I got out of the relationship.

648
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:12,320
Speaker 1: And I'm thinking, well, that's really strange.

649
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:17,120
Speaker 2: It was strange. Carrie symptoms also got better after she

650
00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:21,600
Speaker 2: left the relationship. The vomiting and diarrhea, the lines on

651
00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:26,080
Speaker 2: her nails, they all disappeared. She says she'll never know

652
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:29,680
Speaker 2: why she got so sick during her marriage. What she

653
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:33,279
Speaker 2: does know is that that relationship was literally toxic to

654
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:36,239
Speaker 2: her body.

655
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:40,319
Speaker 1: Living with somebody who's constantly deceitful, this chronic state of

656
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:42,360
Speaker 1: being in a fight or flight with all the cordals

657
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:45,560
Speaker 1: all levels, does terrible damage to the body.

658
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:51,560
Speaker 2: Back in the US, she joined support groups and relied

659
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:55,799
Speaker 2: on her three adult sons. Cameron was cancer free and

660
00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:58,279
Speaker 2: the family had become closer than ever.

661
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:01,000
Speaker 1: I did have a moment with my sons and I

662
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:02,960
Speaker 1: said to them, you must be so ashamed of me.

663
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:05,919
Speaker 1: And my oldest looked at me and he said, no, Mom,

664
00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:10,440
Speaker 1: Caesar used your best qualities against you were not ashamed,

665
00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:11,920
Speaker 1: and I just wept.

666
00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:15,840
Speaker 2: That was the start of her healing process, and the

667
00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:19,040
Speaker 2: next step was writing a book about what she went through.

668
00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:22,919
Speaker 1: They just started writing. I wrote this story as fast

669
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:24,759
Speaker 1: as I could. Took me nine months to write Love

670
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:27,320
Speaker 1: You More. And I found really, really healing.

671
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:31,320
Speaker 2: With time she could look back on the relationship with clarity.

672
00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:35,879
Speaker 2: She applied her expertise in psychology and began to understand

673
00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:39,320
Speaker 2: that what she experienced was narcissistic abuse.

674
00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:44,439
Speaker 1: They consider a narcissistically abusive relationship a cult of two

675
00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:48,839
Speaker 1: really the same tactics that cult leaders use. Highly predatory

676
00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:52,320
Speaker 1: people use the same to create fast rapport, build trust,

677
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:56,960
Speaker 1: and also create a very highly almost addictive relationship that's

678
00:36:57,040 --> 00:37:01,960
Speaker 1: very difficult to lead. It's intoxicating but also terrifying. It's

679
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:03,200
Speaker 1: like a connection on fear.

680
00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:06,920
Speaker 2: Through her work in therapy, she came to a big revelation,

681
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:10,480
Speaker 2: one that went back to the abuse she experienced as

682
00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:15,040
Speaker 2: a child, and she realized that violation might have played

683
00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:17,840
Speaker 2: into the cycle she found herself in with Caesar.

684
00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:21,920
Speaker 1: I realized that when I was little and I had

685
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:25,000
Speaker 1: suffered the abuse with my sister, even though I was

686
00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:27,520
Speaker 1: only like five and she was four. In my head,

687
00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:29,520
Speaker 1: I had made her a promise that I would never

688
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:34,160
Speaker 1: abandon her again, and I approached that promise that I

689
00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:36,560
Speaker 1: had made that was really unreasonable as a child, but

690
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:39,719
Speaker 1: I sort of applied it to him, and to leave

691
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:43,120
Speaker 1: him felt like I was abandoning her all over again.

692
00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:46,040
Speaker 1: And that was what made it really hard for me

693
00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:50,080
Speaker 1: to truly break free, break out of this and come

694
00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:53,399
Speaker 1: into that conclusion. Felt like it broke so much of

695
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:55,839
Speaker 1: my paralysis, my confusion.

696
00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:58,880
Speaker 2: She wanted to know how she'd missed the signs with

697
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:02,240
Speaker 2: Caesar and why she stayed in it for so long.

698
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:03,799
Speaker 2: It wasn't like her.

699
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:07,280
Speaker 1: I cannot begin to describe to you the agon agsy

700
00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:11,719
Speaker 1: paralysis I felt about making a decision. The mind literally says,

701
00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:15,040
Speaker 1: I can't compute. Both realities seem true. I can't compute,

702
00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:17,680
Speaker 1: so it makes no decision, as if that's a decision.

703
00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:21,279
Speaker 2: She turned to books and research on coercive control and

704
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:24,160
Speaker 2: narcissistic abuse to help give her perspective.

705
00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:27,439
Speaker 1: I came across a book by Don Hennessy called How

706
00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:30,800
Speaker 1: He Gets Into Her Head. Highly recommend it Irish law Enforcement.

707
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:33,600
Speaker 1: He writes about the grooming practices in the first part

708
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:36,800
Speaker 1: of the book, he describes working with domestic violence victims

709
00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:39,640
Speaker 1: for years, I mean like many, many, many years. They

710
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:42,120
Speaker 1: kept trying to do all these studies finding a consistent

711
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:44,640
Speaker 1: pattern among victims that would predict that this is a

712
00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:48,400
Speaker 1: person vulnerable to abuse. They couldn't find any There was

713
00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:51,760
Speaker 1: no consistent pattern among all of the domestic violent victims.

714
00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:55,160
Speaker 1: It wasn't until they started looking at the predators that

715
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:59,360
Speaker 1: the pattern fit. The pattern is with the predator, not

716
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:00,000
Speaker 1: with the victims.

717
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:04,000
Speaker 2: She's been able to let go of her shame about

718
00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:07,440
Speaker 2: the decision to stay with Caesar. The betrayal community has

719
00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:10,719
Speaker 2: shown her that no one is above being deceived.

720
00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:15,279
Speaker 1: I'm a psychologist. Everyone somehow assumes a psychologists are like

721
00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:18,720
Speaker 1: above human, superhuman. We should know, we should be excellent

722
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:20,879
Speaker 1: reads of people. Yeah, I'm good reads of people, But

723
00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:23,040
Speaker 1: when it comes to myself, I'm not always so good.

724
00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:28,080
Speaker 1: My personal life, my personal perceptions get involved. It's very

725
00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:30,920
Speaker 1: easy for us to criticize victims and say it's the

726
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:35,080
Speaker 1: victim's fault. But you're just showing your ignorance because anyone

727
00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:39,040
Speaker 1: can fall for something like this. You just haven't met

728
00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:40,840
Speaker 1: the sophisticated enough predator.

729
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:47,200
Speaker 2: When she was at her most vulnerable, grieving Brad's death

730
00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:50,000
Speaker 2: and desperate to have that kind of partnership back again.

731
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 2: At that very moment, she happened to meet the right predator.

732
00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:58,680
Speaker 2: Her trust in Caesar is inherently linked to losing Brad.

733
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,480
Speaker 1: Nobody prepares you for what it's like to lose a partner.

734
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:05,719
Speaker 1: You know. We often think to say there than my

735
00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:09,160
Speaker 1: other half. I'll tell you it felt like I was

736
00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:13,799
Speaker 1: ripped in half. And to think about the future. I've

737
00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:16,719
Speaker 1: got maybe what thirty more years of no one in

738
00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:21,200
Speaker 1: my life, and I'm going to be alone and this big,

739
00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:25,440
Speaker 1: critical person who was my partner, my husband, my lover,

740
00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:30,960
Speaker 1: my best friend, my co parent is gone. I can't

741
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:34,040
Speaker 1: even begin to describe to you the panic I felt.

742
00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:38,000
Speaker 1: We talk about love bombing and it's too good to

743
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:40,360
Speaker 1: be true, and it happens super fast and you suddenly

744
00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:43,319
Speaker 1: are with this person for forever. But you know what,

745
00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:47,640
Speaker 1: sometimes love looks like that, That's what love with Brad

746
00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:48,120
Speaker 1: looked like.

747
00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:54,760
Speaker 2: We end all of our weekly episodes with the same question,

748
00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:59,920
Speaker 2: why did you want to tell your story? For Carrie,

749
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:02,480
Speaker 2: it comes back to letting people know no one is

750
00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:04,080
Speaker 2: above deception or betrayal.

751
00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:07,359
Speaker 1: And by the way, I have had many psychologists who've

752
00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:09,239
Speaker 1: now since reached out to me to tell me it's

753
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:12,240
Speaker 1: happened to them. And an excellent book is Kristin Milstead,

754
00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:15,560
Speaker 1: Why Can't I Just Leave? Who's a PhD in sociology

755
00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:18,080
Speaker 1: and it happened to her. But there are many professional

756
00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:20,279
Speaker 1: women who are and men who've gotten trapped by this.

757
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:25,480
Speaker 1: If it can happen to me, it can happen to anyone.

758
00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:29,640
Speaker 2: On the next episode of Betrayal, I look up one

759
00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:34,160
Speaker 2: of his email addresses and it shows that he has

760
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:39,640
Speaker 2: an Ashley Madison account, and I just nearly threw up.

761
00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:42,920
Speaker 2: If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal

762
00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:45,840
Speaker 2: team or want to tell us your Betrayal story, email

763
00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:50,200
Speaker 2: us at betrayalpod at gmail dot com. That's Betrayal pod

764
00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:54,719
Speaker 2: at gmail dot com. We're grateful for your support. One

765
00:41:54,719 --> 00:41:57,040
Speaker 2: way to show support is by subscribing to our show

766
00:41:57,080 --> 00:41:59,719
Speaker 2: on Apple Podcasts, and don't forget to rate and review

767
00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:03,279
Speaker 2: betray Five star reviews go a long way. A big

768
00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:06,680
Speaker 2: thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a

769
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:09,799
Speaker 2: production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group

770
00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:13,600
Speaker 2: and partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced

771
00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:17,120
Speaker 2: by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason, hosted and produced by

772
00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:21,600
Speaker 2: me Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Monique Leboard, also

773
00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:25,840
Speaker 2: produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristin Mercury and

774
00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:30,080
Speaker 2: Caitlin Golden. Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Krinchech.

775
00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:34,160
Speaker 2: Audio editing and mixing by Matt del Vecchio, additional editing

776
00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:38,880
Speaker 2: support from Nico Ruka and Tanner Robbins. Betrayal's theme composed

777
00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:43,759
Speaker 2: by Oliver Bains. Music library provided by Mob Music and

778
00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:47,920
Speaker 2: For more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

779
00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:54,440
Speaker 2: or wherever you get your podcasts,