1 00:00:02,840 --> 00:00:05,760 Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin, and you're listening to Here's the 2 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:11,360 Speaker 1: Thing from iHeart Radio. In today's world of endless scrolling 3 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:15,000 Speaker 1: and twenty four hour news cycles, it's rare for any 4 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:19,119 Speaker 1: one piece of journalism to become culturally relevant. But that 5 00:00:19,239 --> 00:00:22,159 Speaker 1: is precisely what happened to a piece written by my 6 00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 1: guests today. Chris Whipple's groundbreaking profile of White House Chief 7 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:31,080 Speaker 1: of Staff Susie Wiles became one of Vanity Fair's most 8 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:35,559 Speaker 1: read stories of twenty twenty five. The piece was debated 9 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:39,360 Speaker 1: constantly on TV news, and photos of Wiles and her 10 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:43,159 Speaker 1: staff from the article were shared across the Internet for weeks. 11 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:47,159 Speaker 1: Along with his work for Vanity Fair, Chris Whipple is 12 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:52,520 Speaker 1: an Emmy Award winning journalist, author, and documentary filmmaker described 13 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 1: as quote an indispensable observer of American power quote. Whipple 14 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:01,680 Speaker 1: has written for publications such as Police and The Daily Beast. 15 00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:06,320 Speaker 1: He is also authored for nonfiction books on American politics 16 00:01:06,319 --> 00:01:10,559 Speaker 1: and government. Working in so many different mediums, I wanted 17 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:12,880 Speaker 1: to know what Whipple considers himself to be. 18 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:16,119 Speaker 2: A little bit of all of the above. I guess 19 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:19,320 Speaker 2: I have. Clearly, I've got some kind of identity crisis 20 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:23,319 Speaker 2: going on, I stumbled into this latest phase of my 21 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 2: career writing books about political history. And it happened with 22 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:30,800 Speaker 2: a phone call out of the blue from a couple 23 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:35,440 Speaker 2: of French brothers named Jules and judion Naude, who had 24 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:39,320 Speaker 2: done the iconic documentary nine to eleven. They almost died 25 00:01:39,880 --> 00:01:42,679 Speaker 2: that day. They said, Chris, we have this crazy idea. 26 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:44,800 Speaker 2: We want to do a documentary about White House chiefs 27 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 2: of staff. And I thought about that for about thirty 28 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 2: seconds and I said, I'm in. 29 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:52,720 Speaker 1: So they produced the documentary, which you did for Discovery. 30 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 2: We did it together, the three of us. I did 31 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:58,120 Speaker 2: the interviewing, we all did the producing and editing together. 32 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 2: They directed, you wrote it. Yeah. 33 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:03,640 Speaker 1: So before we get into any details about the Wiles 34 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 1: piece for Vanity Fair, I think it's safe to say, 35 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:09,359 Speaker 1: and you wrote a book about these folks. That was she. 36 00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 1: Perhaps I didn't really see Wiles on the scene very 37 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 1: much in the first administration. Was she there with him 38 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 1: in the first administration? 39 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:16,639 Speaker 2: She would not. 40 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:17,919 Speaker 1: Who was the chief of staff then? 41 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:20,920 Speaker 2: So he went through four chiefs of staff, beginning with 42 00:02:20,919 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 2: the Wrights previous, followed by John Kelly, General John Kelly, 43 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:29,480 Speaker 2: followed by Mick Mulvaney, followed by the ultimate sycophant, Mark Meadows. 44 00:02:29,919 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 2: I wrote a piece about Meadows, calling him the worst 45 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:34,840 Speaker 2: chief of staff in history, and there was stiff competition 46 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:36,320 Speaker 2: for that, and. 47 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:37,440 Speaker 1: He qualified as worst. 48 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:40,440 Speaker 2: Why because he was the ultimate? He was the guy 49 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:45,920 Speaker 2: Donald Trump was desperately wanted, namely, somebody who would just 50 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:50,239 Speaker 2: refuse to push back in any way and say yes, 51 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:54,840 Speaker 2: boss and salute every time Trump came up with coca 52 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:57,400 Speaker 2: made the idea, he just rubber stamped everything. Yeah, exactly. 53 00:02:57,480 --> 00:02:58,639 Speaker 2: He was the ultimate sycophant. 54 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:03,080 Speaker 1: But is in this second term she started the second term? Correct, 55 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 1: she'd been with them throughout this past year or so. 56 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:07,640 Speaker 1: That's right, that's right. And Wiles I don't really read 57 00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:10,040 Speaker 1: very much about her. I didn't really have much of 58 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:11,680 Speaker 1: a sense of her until this piece came out in 59 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:12,240 Speaker 1: Vanity Pain. 60 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, listen. I think Susie Wiles, in my view, was 61 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:20,440 Speaker 2: maybe the most fascinating person in American politics, and partly 62 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:27,799 Speaker 2: because she engineered this unbelievable, against all odds twenty twenty 63 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:31,480 Speaker 2: four presidential campaign for Donald Trump. Donald Trump would not 64 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:35,560 Speaker 2: be president without her, in my view, So for openers, 65 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 2: she had that going for her. Beyond that, she has 66 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 2: this fascinating story. You know, the daughter of Pat Summerle, 67 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 2: the famous sportscaster who was an alcoholic, and she came 68 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:52,240 Speaker 2: up through the traditional GOP as a kind of Reagan Republican, 69 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:57,960 Speaker 2: became disillusioned with that. Then she found Donald Trump and 70 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:02,040 Speaker 2: along the way she got Ron DeSantis elected. That's another 71 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:06,400 Speaker 2: wild story. Desanta's turned on her and threw her under 72 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:08,360 Speaker 2: the bus and tried to destroy her career. 73 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 1: She's a Floridian. 74 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 2: She's a Floridian. She's been through the wars, and she 75 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:18,839 Speaker 2: was rewarded after having won this against a lad's campaign 76 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:21,880 Speaker 2: in twenty twenty four, for Trump, she was rewarded with 77 00:04:21,960 --> 00:04:24,159 Speaker 2: the job of White House chief the first woman ever 78 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:26,400 Speaker 2: to serve as White House Chief of staff. 79 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:28,920 Speaker 1: What do you think was her contribution to the campaign? 80 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:30,120 Speaker 1: How did she help them get elected? 81 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:33,160 Speaker 2: Well? In many ways? I mean she first of all, 82 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:36,120 Speaker 2: she has a kind of magic with Trump that none 83 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:39,920 Speaker 2: of her predecessors had, either campaign managers or White House 84 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 2: chiefs of staff for that matter. He trusts her in a 85 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 2: way that he never trusted anyone else. She's, without a doubt, 86 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:50,159 Speaker 2: the second most powerful person in the Trump White House 87 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:53,600 Speaker 2: and she earned it the hard way. There's a great 88 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:56,480 Speaker 2: story that I tell in the Vanity Fair piece about 89 00:04:56,480 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 2: the time that Trump in twenty sixteen into his golf 90 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:05,000 Speaker 2: club and in front of a bunch of cronies, proceeded 91 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 2: to just take her apart over abuse her verbally over 92 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:13,559 Speaker 2: a pole that he didn't like that showed him losing 93 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:17,119 Speaker 2: in Florida. While she sat there, she said she didn't 94 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:19,479 Speaker 2: know whether to flee or a bit. What she really 95 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:23,480 Speaker 2: wanted to do was cry. But instead she steeled herself 96 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:26,919 Speaker 2: and she said, mister Trump, if you want somebody to 97 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:29,920 Speaker 2: set her hair on fire, I'm not your girl. But 98 00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:32,800 Speaker 2: if you want somebody to win Florida, I am. And 99 00:05:32,839 --> 00:05:35,800 Speaker 2: she turned on her heel and walked out. And she 100 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:39,279 Speaker 2: says that every day thereafter Trump was on the phone 101 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:40,279 Speaker 2: calling her for help. 102 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:43,480 Speaker 1: Now I don't know as much about this, obviously as 103 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:46,480 Speaker 1: you do, but sometimes I wonder where someone who has 104 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:49,960 Speaker 1: this privileged position, someone who's worked their magic with Trump 105 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:52,960 Speaker 1: and it's working. She has his ear all the time 106 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 1: and is an important figure in that administration. Then she 107 00:05:56,040 --> 00:05:58,040 Speaker 1: does an interview with you, and I think to myself, 108 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 1: do you catch some of these people on a day 109 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:01,800 Speaker 1: they're just fed up and they really decided they want 110 00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:02,160 Speaker 1: to talk. 111 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:04,880 Speaker 2: Well, in this case, it would have to be eleven 112 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:09,760 Speaker 2: days over eleven while to talk. She really wanted to talk. 113 00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:13,680 Speaker 2: You know, I've read all the stories, the speculation that 114 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:18,240 Speaker 2: this was a Machiavellian maneuver on her part to take 115 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:21,599 Speaker 2: jd Vance down a notch and elevate Rubio and position 116 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:26,160 Speaker 2: herself and distance herself from some of the problems, the 117 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 2: pardons and all the rest of it. And I think 118 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:32,760 Speaker 2: it's a lot simpler than that. I think that number one. 119 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:37,039 Speaker 2: I ran into Walter Isaacson the week that the story dropped, 120 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 2: and Walter came up and gave me a big hug, 121 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:42,680 Speaker 2: and he said, you know what, Chris, people just like 122 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:47,400 Speaker 2: to talk. People want to tell their story, especially if 123 00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:49,480 Speaker 2: they think they're going to get a fair hearing. So 124 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:51,920 Speaker 2: that was part of it. I think I came with 125 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:56,440 Speaker 2: a reputation for being nonpartisan. You know, I'd praised some 126 00:06:56,520 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 2: Republican White House chiefs. She knew i'd written. She'd read 127 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:02,280 Speaker 2: my book about the White House chiefs of staff, the gatekeepers, 128 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:05,839 Speaker 2: so that helped. But the other thing that I think 129 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:10,440 Speaker 2: is really key here is that every white House Chief. 130 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:14,360 Speaker 2: Every White House staffer lives in a bubble. They work 131 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 2: in a bubble called the West Wing. And it's exponentially 132 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:22,640 Speaker 2: more so in the Trump White House, where you're sitting 133 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:26,600 Speaker 2: around talking to acolytes, all of them reading from the 134 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:30,000 Speaker 2: same playbook. And I think at a certain point you 135 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:35,440 Speaker 2: forget that all this crazy stuff you're talking about sounds 136 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 2: insane on planet Earth. And I think at a certain 137 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:43,120 Speaker 2: point she thinks she's talking to Stephen Miller. And when 138 00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:46,240 Speaker 2: the whole thing landed a couple of weeks ago, it 139 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 2: was a problem. 140 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:50,600 Speaker 1: Now, what was your journalistic DNA when you were a kid? 141 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:51,400 Speaker 1: What's your dad? 142 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 2: Now? My dad was a journalist, So that's how it started. 143 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:55,400 Speaker 2: So I caught the bug. 144 00:07:55,440 --> 00:07:56,160 Speaker 1: Who do you write for? 145 00:07:56,560 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 2: He was an editor of the Weekly Life magazine back 146 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:02,240 Speaker 2: in the glory days in the sixties, And so I 147 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:04,680 Speaker 2: caught the bug around the dinner table. His friends were 148 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:09,000 Speaker 2: writers like Walter Lord. Rachel Carson came over for dinner 149 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:13,440 Speaker 2: at Washington in Knowing in Connecticut. Oh well, he commuted 150 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 2: to New York where he worked, so you know, Alfred Eisenstadt, 151 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:20,200 Speaker 2: the photographer, would come over, you know. So I caught 152 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:23,280 Speaker 2: that bug early on. This is pretty exciting stuff, just 153 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 2: covering the world. 154 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:29,720 Speaker 1: So your home and journalism affects you like you're meeting 155 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 1: the New York Times when you're ten years old. How 156 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:33,319 Speaker 1: does it start for you? Your curiosity? 157 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:36,960 Speaker 2: It started again around the dinner table. This just seemed 158 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:40,840 Speaker 2: like a pretty exciting way to have a career covering stories, 159 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:43,880 Speaker 2: you know, all over the world. And again, those were 160 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:48,080 Speaker 2: the glory days of life and Look and Saturday Evening Post. 161 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:50,120 Speaker 1: And seven newspapers in New York the day. 162 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:53,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, So that was pretty exciting. And I so 163 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:56,240 Speaker 2: right out of college, I got a job working for 164 00:08:56,240 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 2: Foreign Policy magazine. Dick Holbrook was my boss. I want 165 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:02,280 Speaker 2: to get to And then I went to the monthly 166 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:05,720 Speaker 2: Life magazine, which made a run around nineteen seventy eight 167 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 2: to the late eighties. And so for eight years I 168 00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:11,080 Speaker 2: traveled all over the world. I mean I went to 169 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:14,079 Speaker 2: South Africa and lived with Winnie Mendela for a while. 170 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:15,080 Speaker 1: I want to ask you about that. 171 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:18,280 Speaker 2: I went from there to waiting my notes here. I 172 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:21,320 Speaker 2: went to the Philippines and you know, met Ferdinand and 173 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:22,000 Speaker 2: Melda Marco. 174 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:24,319 Speaker 1: Back in the day when journalists like that were traveling 175 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:26,040 Speaker 1: a great deal they don't do this right anymore. 176 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 2: We'd go for weeks sometimes you have kids. Sometimes months 177 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:31,319 Speaker 2: of time you have children. I didn't at that point, 178 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:34,000 Speaker 2: but I do well. I mean that's you probably didn't 179 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:36,000 Speaker 2: have any time. Yeah, yeah, probably wise if you. 180 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:37,760 Speaker 1: Not to have children when you're flying all over the world. 181 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:40,800 Speaker 1: Right now, talk about Mendela for example, I remember when 182 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:44,160 Speaker 1: you were with her, was this before, after, during they 183 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:46,520 Speaker 1: will wear our necklaces stuff and. 184 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:50,120 Speaker 2: Great during during Right at that moment, I mean, she 185 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:54,760 Speaker 2: was lionized, she was idolized. She was the so called 186 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 2: mother of the nation. Mama'll wait too. You'd hear the 187 00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:01,240 Speaker 2: people chant when she walked through the streets of Cueto. 188 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:04,880 Speaker 2: At one point, David Turnley, the photographer for Life, and 189 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:08,520 Speaker 2: I were surrounded by an angry group of kids, and 190 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:12,240 Speaker 2: we thought we might be next to be necklaced, as 191 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:15,760 Speaker 2: they called it necklacing. The necklacing was the practice of 192 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:18,800 Speaker 2: if they thought you were a police informer, and we 193 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:21,480 Speaker 2: were a couple of white guys in the middle of Cueto, 194 00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:26,200 Speaker 2: they would pour gasoline over a tire, put it around 195 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:27,360 Speaker 2: your neck and set it on fire. 196 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:29,320 Speaker 1: I remember she said in that speech, they will wear 197 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:31,960 Speaker 1: on necklaces. He's condemning somebody at that speech. 198 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:35,080 Speaker 2: So we you know, at one point we were surrounded 199 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 2: by these kids and they were suspicious, and suddenly we 200 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:42,280 Speaker 2: saw the crowd part and we saw Winny Mendela coming 201 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:45,280 Speaker 2: through and she said, these are my friends, and she 202 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:47,720 Speaker 2: led us back to her house just in time. 203 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:48,720 Speaker 1: What did you talk to her about? 204 00:10:48,920 --> 00:10:52,520 Speaker 2: Well, mostly about the struggle as they put it. Nelson 205 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:54,559 Speaker 2: Mandela was still in prison at that point. He was 206 00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:59,440 Speaker 2: actually in Pollsmoor Prison at that point. He'd been moved 207 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:02,080 Speaker 2: from Robin Islanery spent most of those years to a 208 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:05,439 Speaker 2: place called Pollsmore. We actually went into the waiting room 209 00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:08,920 Speaker 2: with Winnie posing as a couple of her lawyers, hoping 210 00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:11,480 Speaker 2: to get a glimpse of Nelson, and nobody had seen 211 00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:15,960 Speaker 2: him since you early sixties, since the Ravonia trial, and 212 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 2: we were hoping that Winnie would take a miniature camera 213 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:20,400 Speaker 2: in and get a picture for her. Wouldn't do it 214 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:23,200 Speaker 2: for life? Well, she said she couldn't. She said she 215 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:31,359 Speaker 2: tried anyway. Winnie was a absolutely fascinating, charismatic and really complicated, 216 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 2: ultimately tragic character. 217 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:34,640 Speaker 1: I think tragic. 218 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:38,480 Speaker 2: Why tragic because I think that she as she would 219 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:43,760 Speaker 2: be the first to admit she was much more radical 220 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:48,520 Speaker 2: than her husband Nelson. She was much less prepared to forgive. 221 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:53,280 Speaker 2: And I think she also thought, and you could argue, 222 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:58,680 Speaker 2: maybe rightly, that having spent all those years struggling to 223 00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:00,880 Speaker 2: advance the. 224 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:02,599 Speaker 1: The revolution in his absence. 225 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:06,520 Speaker 2: In his absence, that she was owed something. I think 226 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:10,600 Speaker 2: in her mind. Again, I mean, there were certainly, you know, 227 00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 2: allegations of corruption and all of that was sort of 228 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:16,640 Speaker 2: after the time I spent with her, but we could 229 00:12:16,679 --> 00:12:20,120 Speaker 2: see there was a kind of megalomania. I think that 230 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:21,200 Speaker 2: she was prey to. 231 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:23,800 Speaker 1: Well. I think that that's also very you know, the 232 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:26,679 Speaker 1: potential for that is high because of the stakes and 233 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:29,120 Speaker 1: the whole flavor of the whole thing. You know, your 234 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:31,679 Speaker 1: husband's in prison for the rest of his life, presumably 235 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:34,839 Speaker 1: he's a political prisoner. You're there and that I mean, 236 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:38,120 Speaker 1: my ex wife made a film there. We went to 237 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:42,600 Speaker 1: South Africa after they had bombed Planet Hollywood in Cape 238 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 1: Town and the US embassy in Nairobi. So the film 239 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:47,720 Speaker 1: was supposed to be in Kenya and it was moved 240 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:50,120 Speaker 1: to South Africa and she went there and it was 241 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:53,920 Speaker 1: like roadblock, highway robberies. My ex wife had to have 242 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:57,520 Speaker 1: a driver, a lead car armed, the driver with her armed, 243 00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:00,960 Speaker 1: a bodyguard armed. They were pulling people over and raping 244 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:03,839 Speaker 1: and robbing people right before we got there. So South 245 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:06,319 Speaker 1: Africa was not Disneyland, you know, No, it was not. 246 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:09,600 Speaker 2: But imagine being there during the state of emergency, you know, 247 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:13,400 Speaker 2: before Mandela was released from prison. It was just, I mean, 248 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 2: absolutely extraordinary experience. 249 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:17,959 Speaker 1: You go from Life and you're there for a while. 250 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:19,920 Speaker 1: You didn't pop in and out of these places quickly. 251 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:22,600 Speaker 1: You were there at Life for eight years, for eight years, 252 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:25,559 Speaker 1: and when you leave Life you go to ABC. 253 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:27,800 Speaker 2: Actually CBS first. 254 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:29,800 Speaker 1: So you did. You were at sixty minutes that was 255 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:31,960 Speaker 1: before ABC. Yeah, and you had sixty Minutes for how 256 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:32,480 Speaker 1: many years? 257 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 2: What happened was I met Diane Sawyer who was in 258 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:40,600 Speaker 2: her second year at sixty minutes and in need of 259 00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:45,720 Speaker 2: a associate producer, and I went to work for sixty minutes. 260 00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:48,400 Speaker 1: And you were there from eighty six to ninety one, 261 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 1: that's right, ninety when you go to ABC. Now, what 262 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:52,720 Speaker 1: was your experience like at sixty minutes. And we're going 263 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:56,199 Speaker 1: to get into just a little bit about whither CBS News. 264 00:13:56,240 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 2: Was it was? 265 00:13:56,840 --> 00:13:57,120 Speaker 1: It was? 266 00:13:57,240 --> 00:13:59,200 Speaker 2: It was just phenomenal. I mean it was. It was 267 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:02,559 Speaker 2: really an exciting period of my life. And the very 268 00:14:02,559 --> 00:14:05,120 Speaker 2: first thing I did was I said to Diane Sawyer, 269 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:07,600 Speaker 2: you know what, give me a plane ticket to Honolulu 270 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:09,960 Speaker 2: and let me see if I can get Amelda Marcos 271 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:13,000 Speaker 2: Amel de Marcos and her husband, Ferdinand, the dictator of 272 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:16,200 Speaker 2: the Philippines had fled, had just fled the Philippines. They 273 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:19,680 Speaker 2: were in Honolulu, they were holed up in a bunker there. 274 00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:22,520 Speaker 2: The entire World Press Corps was trying to get to him, 275 00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:26,360 Speaker 2: and I liked my chances of getting him, so I 276 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:30,480 Speaker 2: jumped on a plane, flew out there, called Diane from 277 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:34,400 Speaker 2: the compound, said how soon can you get here, because 278 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 2: I've got emel de Marcos ready to go, and she 279 00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:41,280 Speaker 2: couldn't make it. And so the next thing I knew 280 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:44,040 Speaker 2: on my first day, at sixty minutes, two camera crews 281 00:14:44,040 --> 00:14:47,440 Speaker 2: were flying in and I was interviewing Emelda Marcos and 282 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:50,800 Speaker 2: Ferdinand for sixty minutes, which I did. We sent the 283 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:53,720 Speaker 2: transcripts back, sent the tapes back to New York. They 284 00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:57,720 Speaker 2: were transcribed. Don Ewett, the legendary executive producer, read the 285 00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:01,840 Speaker 2: transcripts before I flew back and I walked in the 286 00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:04,240 Speaker 2: door and you It is standing there with Mike Wallace, 287 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:07,480 Speaker 2: the famous star of sixty Minutes, and he looks at me. 288 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:11,640 Speaker 2: He goes way to go kid, And I'm feeling pretty 289 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:13,960 Speaker 2: heady at this point, and I go, well, you know, 290 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:16,600 Speaker 2: don there's a moment. You may not be able to 291 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:18,960 Speaker 2: see it in the transcript, but there's a moment where 292 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:23,520 Speaker 2: Emmelda doesn't quite lose it, but she gets all misty eyed, 293 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 2: and you It looks at Wallace and looks at me 294 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:29,160 Speaker 2: and says, kid, if you were any good, she would 295 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:32,240 Speaker 2: a cry. That was my introduction to network. 296 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:34,480 Speaker 1: Tell her. Now, let me ask you this. In the 297 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:38,040 Speaker 1: sixty Minutes period, you interview John Connolly. I'm assuming that's 298 00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:39,360 Speaker 1: the governor of Texas. 299 00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:43,080 Speaker 2: That's right. So Connolly was really fascinating, kind of larger 300 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:47,160 Speaker 2: than life character. He had been Treasury secretary under Richard Nixon. 301 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:51,840 Speaker 2: He was at one point considered a real possibility as president. 302 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:55,280 Speaker 2: He ran, he tried to become resident, he won one delegate, 303 00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:58,600 Speaker 2: spent a fortune. But we went and saw him right 304 00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:02,160 Speaker 2: after he had this real fall from grace. I mean, 305 00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:05,840 Speaker 2: he declared bankruptcy. He lost everything he had. This was 306 00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:08,840 Speaker 2: in the mid eighties eighty seven, I guess around the 307 00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:12,440 Speaker 2: recession of that time, but the real estate market collapsed 308 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:16,040 Speaker 2: and took all of Connolly's into possessions with him. And 309 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 2: he's sitting in a ranch house with all the furniture 310 00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:24,040 Speaker 2: removed and talking about that fall from grace, but also 311 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:29,120 Speaker 2: talking about being in the limousine. JFK and he and 312 00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:32,920 Speaker 2: Nelly told us that story, you know, moment by moment 313 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:36,960 Speaker 2: that was just absolutely rivetting. Connolly barely survived it, and 314 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:39,240 Speaker 2: obviously JFK did not. 315 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:41,080 Speaker 1: What did he say about that that you can be 316 00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:44,680 Speaker 1: called anything, because I mean, I'm a conspiracy nut. I'm 317 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:45,320 Speaker 1: not going to lie. 318 00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:48,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, he was not a believer in a conspiracy. He 319 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:51,520 Speaker 2: believed that that bullet really was magical. You know that 320 00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:55,320 Speaker 2: that bullet zigzagged and came out of his wrist or 321 00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:58,160 Speaker 2: wherever it was I forgotten now. But the other fascinating 322 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:02,000 Speaker 2: thing was climbing into his pickup truck. I'll never forget it. Man. 323 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:06,520 Speaker 2: John Connelly's driving and Diane Sawyer is in the passenger seat, 324 00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:08,960 Speaker 2: and I'm in the back with a with a cameraman, 325 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:13,440 Speaker 2: and we drive to his old homestead where Connelly and 326 00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:15,000 Speaker 2: Diane Sawyer started talking. 327 00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:17,000 Speaker 1: About Richard Nixon, who Diane had worked for. 328 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:19,359 Speaker 2: Who Diane had worked for. Those two maybe knew Nixon 329 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:22,040 Speaker 2: better than anyone well you could think of, So it 330 00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:24,960 Speaker 2: was it was amazing. And of course he pointed out 331 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:28,240 Speaker 2: the homestead where he said, I used to walk barefoot 332 00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:31,399 Speaker 2: behind a mule over here, and he said, and one 333 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:34,200 Speaker 2: day I saw a fancy car go by, and I said, 334 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:37,919 Speaker 2: someday I'm going to be driving that car. So it 335 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:40,840 Speaker 2: was some pretty amazing experiences. 336 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:45,200 Speaker 1: Diane Sawyer, who of course enjoyed a great career, then 337 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:47,560 Speaker 1: she left for ABC as well. Correct, did you connect 338 00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:50,600 Speaker 1: with her again at ABC? Did so? She was happy 339 00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:51,400 Speaker 1: to see you when you should. 340 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:53,800 Speaker 2: I don't know about that, okay. I was happy to 341 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:54,800 Speaker 2: be welcomed there. 342 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:58,120 Speaker 1: She was great on that show. People forget how wonderful 343 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:00,719 Speaker 1: she wasn't she was a really good tell journal Well. 344 00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:03,840 Speaker 2: She and Sam Donaldson launched a show called Primetime Live. 345 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:09,520 Speaker 2: Primetime Live as Sam was said rune Arledge at that 346 00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:13,719 Speaker 2: point was held bent on trying to compete with sixty Minutes, 347 00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:16,960 Speaker 2: and lured her over and brought Sam Donaldson out of 348 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:19,200 Speaker 2: the White House and put them together as a team, 349 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:22,359 Speaker 2: and for a while we had the resources to do 350 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:26,880 Speaker 2: a lot of pretty serious investigative hidden camera stuff, which 351 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:30,439 Speaker 2: we did for a number of years. It didn't last forever, 352 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:34,280 Speaker 2: but you know, at one point, I literally set up 353 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:39,320 Speaker 2: a phony medical clinic in Las downtown Los Angeles and 354 00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:42,320 Speaker 2: hung up a shingle and rigged the place with hidden cameras, 355 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:47,840 Speaker 2: and we advertised ourselves as a general practitioner doctor's office, 356 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:52,600 Speaker 2: and we watched and rolled tape as crooked doctors and 357 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:56,280 Speaker 2: brokers beat a path to our door offering us illegal 358 00:18:56,359 --> 00:19:00,359 Speaker 2: kickbacks for our patient referrals. 359 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:00,920 Speaker 1: That's so forth. 360 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:05,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, And after four or five months of running this 361 00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:08,760 Speaker 2: phony clinic, you know, we invited them all back and 362 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:13,600 Speaker 2: Diane confronted them, and anyway, we won an Emmy for that, 363 00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:17,760 Speaker 2: but it was those are the days when Network's really had. 364 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:21,920 Speaker 2: We're throwing money at pretty serious investigative journalists. 365 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:30,000 Speaker 1: Exactly, exactly journalist and author Chris Whipple. If you enjoy 366 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:34,600 Speaker 1: conversations about the inner workings of important magazines, check out 367 00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:37,960 Speaker 1: my episode with former Vanity Fair editor Tina Brown. 368 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:41,320 Speaker 3: Well. I think I'm a compulsive reporter. Actually, I mean 369 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:45,000 Speaker 3: I have what I think of as observation greed right. 370 00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:47,560 Speaker 3: Most of the time, I'm propelled to go out, not 371 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:50,480 Speaker 3: because I actually want to go out, but I think 372 00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:52,720 Speaker 3: I got to see that. You know, I need to 373 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:56,959 Speaker 3: see that. Curious, I'm really curious, and I have a 374 00:19:57,040 --> 00:19:59,280 Speaker 3: great desire to report on the action. 375 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:04,560 Speaker 1: To hear more of my conversation with Tina Brown, go 376 00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:08,920 Speaker 1: to Here's the Thing dot org. After the break, Chris 377 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:12,720 Speaker 1: Whipple details one piece of advice former White House Chief 378 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:26,640 Speaker 1: of Staff Right's Prebus gave to Susie Wiles. I'm Alec Baldwin, 379 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:30,640 Speaker 1: and this is Here's the Thing. In nineteen seventy eight, 380 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:35,040 Speaker 1: Chris Whipple began his reporting career at Life magazine, where 381 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:39,879 Speaker 1: he covered countless historic events and interviewed many significant figures 382 00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:44,680 Speaker 1: such as Winnie Mandela, Desmond Tutu, and Ted Kennedy. Whipple 383 00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:48,240 Speaker 1: secured an interview with Ted Kennedy during the nineteen eighty 384 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 1: presidential election, but his interview did not quite go as planned. 385 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:57,879 Speaker 2: Absolutely amazing story. A sorry that didn't appear in Life 386 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:01,480 Speaker 2: because for reasons you'll wander in a second. But what 387 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:05,000 Speaker 2: happened was I was at the Kennedy compound in Hyannisport 388 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:08,920 Speaker 2: the day Roger Mud did that infamous. 389 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:09,879 Speaker 1: Interview why do you want to be President? 390 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:12,000 Speaker 2: Ted kenn Why do you want to be president? And 391 00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:14,840 Speaker 2: it was produced by Howard Stringer and Andy Lack, two 392 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:17,119 Speaker 2: guys you never heard of, and they were chasing me 393 00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:19,159 Speaker 2: around the law and trying to because they thought this 394 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:21,600 Speaker 2: was their exclusive And so all of a sudden, this 395 00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:24,679 Speaker 2: kid from Life magazine is there with a photographer, and 396 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 2: we stood our ground. Anyway, we watched this thing happen 397 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:32,520 Speaker 2: and Roger Mud asks the famous question and Kennedy is 398 00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:38,360 Speaker 2: utterly inarticulate, cannot complete this, can barely complete the sentence, 399 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:42,399 Speaker 2: couldn't answer the question, why do you want to be present? Afterwards, 400 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:45,399 Speaker 2: Mud takes off his microphone and walks down to the 401 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:48,639 Speaker 2: sea wall, and I walked down behind him and I 402 00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:53,040 Speaker 2: congratulated him. I said, Roger, I am Chris Whipple. That 403 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:56,280 Speaker 2: was amazing. He goes, really you think I got anything? 404 00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:59,760 Speaker 2: He had no idea what he had. It was pretty 405 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:01,960 Speaker 2: clear to everybody else who was watching it. I mean, 406 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:05,480 Speaker 2: we didn't know it would end his campaign, which essentially 407 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:09,000 Speaker 2: it did. But Mud didn't realize what he had. That 408 00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:12,760 Speaker 2: was the modesty of the man. I thereupon had my 409 00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:17,080 Speaker 2: ten minutes or fifteen minutes with Kennedy riding in the 410 00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:21,160 Speaker 2: limousine from the compound down to the dock where Patrick 411 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:23,639 Speaker 2: his son was waiting on the sailboat to go for 412 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:29,440 Speaker 2: a sale, and Kennedy had he was catatonic. He had 413 00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:32,239 Speaker 2: this like thousand yards stare, and I would ask him 414 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:36,639 Speaker 2: questions and get no response. And to this day, I 415 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:39,960 Speaker 2: don't know what was going on. Whatever happened, Boy, he 416 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:42,360 Speaker 2: didn't have it that day, and I think it ended 417 00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:42,960 Speaker 2: his campaign. 418 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:45,840 Speaker 1: So tell me about CBS and what you think has 419 00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:47,399 Speaker 1: happened there. Does do you think that this is going 420 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:49,199 Speaker 1: to wind up happening everywhere? 421 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:53,199 Speaker 2: Wow, it's painful to watch. I mean for those of 422 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:55,919 Speaker 2: us who were there during the glory days. I'm not 423 00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:59,719 Speaker 2: always the hair on fire guy when it comes to 424 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:03,480 Speaker 2: what's going on at CBS right now, because I can remember. 425 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:07,920 Speaker 2: Let's take for example, what happened recently with Barry Weiss 426 00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:12,919 Speaker 2: spiking or at least delaying that story about that terrible 427 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:16,360 Speaker 2: prison in Nel Salvador Seacott. I'm old enough to remember, 428 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:19,200 Speaker 2: even though it was after I left sixty minutes when 429 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:23,119 Speaker 2: Don yu At, the executive producer, spiked the story about 430 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:26,240 Speaker 2: Big Tobacco, and it was later turned into. 431 00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:28,800 Speaker 1: A movie, as you know, the. 432 00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:31,200 Speaker 2: The Insider with al Pacino, and that story eventually ran, 433 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:36,240 Speaker 2: and it ran to devastating effect, I mean, really changed everything. 434 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:39,200 Speaker 2: Lowel Bergman was the producer, but I knew Lowell when 435 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:41,520 Speaker 2: he was there, So I don't think it's the end 436 00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:43,520 Speaker 2: of the story. And I think I think that Seacut 437 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:46,200 Speaker 2: story will run. I mean a lot of people have 438 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:48,159 Speaker 2: seen it, because there was a bootleg version of it 439 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:50,960 Speaker 2: that the CANADIENC has put out. A lot of people 440 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:54,360 Speaker 2: saw it. But boy, they're going through a rough period. 441 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:56,600 Speaker 1: But I wonder if the other networks as well, that 442 00:23:56,680 --> 00:24:00,199 Speaker 1: the news which was an edict from the FCC. If 443 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:02,679 Speaker 1: I recall, these are public airwaves and you have to 444 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:05,239 Speaker 1: have some news program. I mean they ordered that and 445 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:08,679 Speaker 1: eventually tried to turn it, you know, away from a 446 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:11,000 Speaker 1: lost leader with you will or whatever comparison you want 447 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:13,719 Speaker 1: to make. And they you know, the news is big business. 448 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:15,600 Speaker 1: But I wonder if it's not big business anymore and 449 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:16,800 Speaker 1: they all want to get rid of it in some 450 00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:18,240 Speaker 1: way or just cut the costs of nothing. 451 00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you may be right, and nobody under 452 00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:24,760 Speaker 2: seventy five is watching the Network news broadcast. I spoke 453 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:29,480 Speaker 2: to a twelfth grade class, really bright kids in Greenwich, Connecticut, 454 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:35,560 Speaker 2: affluent kids, and they're getting their news from TikTok and 455 00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:40,360 Speaker 2: dinner with their parents. It's not a pretty picture. 456 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:44,680 Speaker 1: I'm at a party once at John Eastman's house, McCartney's 457 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:47,879 Speaker 1: brother in law, Linda Eastman's brother. And I'm there and 458 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:50,720 Speaker 1: John Eastman and his wife would have these fabulous parties 459 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:53,399 Speaker 1: in the summertime at their house, and all these people 460 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:56,719 Speaker 1: there that you admired, And I'm sitting down with the Holberg, 461 00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:59,000 Speaker 1: who was the loveliest guy on earth and the most 462 00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:01,640 Speaker 1: charming man on her And hollbrook sits there and says, 463 00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:05,600 Speaker 1: to me, read the forty pages in Halberston, and that'll 464 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:07,160 Speaker 1: tell you everything about me. You know, don't even bother 465 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:09,720 Speaker 1: anything else. That's Maclamara, and I want you to read 466 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:12,159 Speaker 1: it and then call me and we'll have dinner. He 467 00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:14,280 Speaker 1: was very kind to me, he said, let's have dinner 468 00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:16,000 Speaker 1: or lunch. And then he died two weeks later or 469 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:17,600 Speaker 1: something like that, right on the heels of that. Wow, 470 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:19,160 Speaker 1: what was your relationship with him? 471 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:22,399 Speaker 2: Like Holbrick was an unbelievable character. I mean, I was 472 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:24,919 Speaker 2: a kid at a college, you know, with hair down 473 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:28,080 Speaker 2: to my shoulders, and completely out of my depth as 474 00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:31,160 Speaker 2: his assistant at foreign policy. But I must have done 475 00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:35,199 Speaker 2: something right because he just became a mentor and a 476 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:39,520 Speaker 2: great friend and the reason I wound up at sixty minutes. 477 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:42,880 Speaker 2: One day I was back from an assignment for Life, 478 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:45,919 Speaker 2: was walking through the lobby of the Jefferson Hotel in 479 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:49,280 Speaker 2: Washington and Hobrook comes out of the dining room and 480 00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:52,720 Speaker 2: we bump into each other and he goes, congratulations, Listen, 481 00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:54,879 Speaker 2: I just read your piece on Marcos. You got the 482 00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:57,840 Speaker 2: quote of the Year from Marcos. Of course he'd read 483 00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:01,040 Speaker 2: Life magazine, he read everything. And he goes, listen, you 484 00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:04,399 Speaker 2: gotta have lunch with me and Diane. Well, Diane was 485 00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:08,600 Speaker 2: his then girlfriend, Diane Sawyer, and that was how I 486 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:11,919 Speaker 2: met Diane and wound up eventually at sixty minutes. 487 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:16,160 Speaker 1: So let's talk about what's your relationship with Vanity Fair. 488 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:18,520 Speaker 1: The peace goes because you had an ongoing relationship with 489 00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:21,359 Speaker 1: them and written for them before I have when you 490 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:23,240 Speaker 1: first started writing, who was in charge? Graydon? 491 00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:26,679 Speaker 2: So, Graydon Carter was in charge when I began writing 492 00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:30,040 Speaker 2: for Vanity Fair. I did a number of pieces, including 493 00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:34,720 Speaker 2: the first interview with Ryan's prebus after he was shown 494 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:39,359 Speaker 2: the doors on the tarmac. He was literally on a 495 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:44,600 Speaker 2: rain soaked tarmac under Air Force one when Trump tweeted 496 00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 2: that his services were no longer needed. That was the 497 00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:51,400 Speaker 2: way Trump rolled during the first term with White House chiefs. 498 00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:53,720 Speaker 2: But anyway, I got to know Ryance interviewed him. The 499 00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:56,480 Speaker 2: very first thing he said to me, I'll never forget. 500 00:26:56,520 --> 00:27:00,359 Speaker 2: I met him at a bar in Georgetown and he 501 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:03,480 Speaker 2: came over to me and he said, take everything you've 502 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:09,000 Speaker 2: heard and multiplied by fifty and we were off to 503 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:11,760 Speaker 2: the races. And I did a piece of vanity fair 504 00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:15,160 Speaker 2: after that. The irony here is that fast forward now 505 00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:20,679 Speaker 2: eight years there was a gathering for Susie Wiles before 506 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:23,560 Speaker 2: she became White House Chief of Staff. Jeff Science, the 507 00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:26,480 Speaker 2: outgoing White House chief for Joe Biden, invited a bunch 508 00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:30,280 Speaker 2: of chiefs to come and give Wiles some advice. They 509 00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:32,600 Speaker 2: went around the table and they got to Ryan's previous 510 00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:36,800 Speaker 2: and Breevous looked at Wiles and said, one thing, don't 511 00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:37,640 Speaker 2: talk to Whipple. 512 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:39,480 Speaker 1: Interesting. 513 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:42,560 Speaker 2: She evidently didn't take it to heart. So every once 514 00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:45,800 Speaker 2: in a while on a reporter's career lightning strikes, and 515 00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:48,879 Speaker 2: this was one of those cases. White House chiefs of 516 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:53,640 Speaker 2: staff never talked to reporters on the record. 517 00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:55,960 Speaker 1: Very rarely, not for that length of time either. 518 00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:57,680 Speaker 2: You know, I wrote a book on the Biden White 519 00:27:57,720 --> 00:27:59,440 Speaker 2: House in the first two years of Biden White House 520 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:03,840 Speaker 2: got to know rhyme claim pretty well, interviewed him multiple times, 521 00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:09,040 Speaker 2: always on so called deep background with quotation approval required 522 00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:12,320 Speaker 2: before you publish. None of that was Susie Wiles. 523 00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:14,840 Speaker 1: So they came to you. You pitched them. What did 524 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:15,919 Speaker 1: the Wiles thing come up? 525 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:16,000 Speaker 3: Oo? 526 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:17,399 Speaker 1: Who originated that idea? 527 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:21,000 Speaker 2: So I did. What happened was I was writing, and 528 00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:24,040 Speaker 2: I still am writing a book on a history of 529 00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:27,879 Speaker 2: presidential campaign managers from nineteen sixty eight to the president. 530 00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:32,640 Speaker 2: It's a rogues gallery of great characters, from John Mitchell 531 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:36,320 Speaker 2: to Lee Atwater, to James Carville to Susie Wiles, who 532 00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:40,280 Speaker 2: ran Trump's campaign. So I called up Wiles. She was 533 00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:43,920 Speaker 2: driving ten days before she became White House chief. She's 534 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:48,720 Speaker 2: driving from mar A Lago to her place in Ponavidra, 535 00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:52,000 Speaker 2: about four hours north in Florida. And we started talking 536 00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:58,520 Speaker 2: and I can't believe it. She is open and unguarded 537 00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:03,040 Speaker 2: and on the record and smart and funny and charming. 538 00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:05,959 Speaker 2: And I got off the phone and I said to 539 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:09,080 Speaker 2: my wife, you're not going to believe this, and she didn't, 540 00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:13,240 Speaker 2: but it was true. She was on the record during 541 00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:17,240 Speaker 2: that first conversation except when we mutually agreed to go 542 00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:22,440 Speaker 2: off very briefly, and for the next eleven months we 543 00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:25,240 Speaker 2: just kept talking. Now, I should say that what happened 544 00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:27,960 Speaker 2: was initially she knew I was writing a book about 545 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:31,160 Speaker 2: presidential campaign managers. That's why she was talking to me. 546 00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:34,880 Speaker 2: I quickly realized that what she really wanted to talk 547 00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:39,080 Speaker 2: about was Trump two point oh. And she she told 548 00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:41,960 Speaker 2: me I just got off the phone with Hakim Jeffreys, 549 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:44,000 Speaker 2: and I told him, you're going to see a whole 550 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:48,760 Speaker 2: new Trump. Trust me anyway. So a couple of interviews 551 00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:52,560 Speaker 2: into this process, I said to her, well, listen, Susie 552 00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:55,600 Speaker 2: Vandy Fair wants to do a big piece on Trump 553 00:29:55,600 --> 00:30:01,120 Speaker 2: two point oh. And she said great. Congratually, she was 554 00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:01,600 Speaker 2: all in. 555 00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:04,680 Speaker 1: Wow, that's amazing to me looking back at your books, 556 00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:06,960 Speaker 1: because you mentioned the Biden book. This is not a 557 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:08,920 Speaker 1: serious question, obviously, but I guess I can't help, But 558 00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:11,240 Speaker 1: should we have an age limit for the president of 559 00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:14,080 Speaker 1: the United States. I mean, we got two guys that 560 00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:16,120 Speaker 1: are round in the corner at eighty and both of 561 00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:20,440 Speaker 1: them have serious issues, maybe neurologically, who knows or whatever, 562 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:23,280 Speaker 1: And I wonder should we go that you can't be 563 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:25,280 Speaker 1: present to you pass a certain physical. 564 00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:27,400 Speaker 2: Maybe they should be Yeah, maybe there should be. Look, 565 00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:32,720 Speaker 2: I think that it was Joe Biden's eleventh hour abdication 566 00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:37,160 Speaker 2: from the race, which left Kamala Harris with two shorter runways. 567 00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:39,920 Speaker 1: That's what I said. I used that phase to a runway. 568 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:44,520 Speaker 2: To mount a serious race against Trump. Was a scandal 569 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:49,600 Speaker 2: and a tragedy. A tragedy for Biden obviously, but also 570 00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:52,840 Speaker 2: for the Democratic Party and arguably the country. There's no 571 00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:55,560 Speaker 2: question about it. Now. I don't agree with Jake Tapper 572 00:30:55,960 --> 00:31:01,360 Speaker 2: that Biden was Woodrow Wilson non compass, meant to over 573 00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:05,200 Speaker 2: in the corner while everybody else was governing by auto pen. 574 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:08,720 Speaker 2: I think that was nonsense. I think Biden was actually 575 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:13,280 Speaker 2: making decisions behind closed doors. What he couldn't do was campaign. 576 00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:16,080 Speaker 2: He couldn't do anything, as we all saw in that 577 00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:17,440 Speaker 2: infamous debate. 578 00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:20,880 Speaker 1: I wonder if we're married now to this kind of 579 00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:24,880 Speaker 1: hawkish or semi hawkish presidential figure, whether he didn't have 580 00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:27,600 Speaker 1: to talk tough. You never hear anybody talk about peace anymore. 581 00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:30,480 Speaker 1: Never nobody talks about peace in the Middle East or 582 00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:32,280 Speaker 1: in Ukraine. It's all war. 583 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:36,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, No, you really wonder was I was joking with 584 00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:39,800 Speaker 2: somebody earlier today that you know, rama Manuel, if he 585 00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:41,520 Speaker 2: wants to make a run, doesn't even have to clean 586 00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:43,960 Speaker 2: up his language after Trump. 587 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:44,719 Speaker 1: Can you believe this? 588 00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:49,080 Speaker 2: I believe the bomb, you know, every other sentence, But no, 589 00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:52,640 Speaker 2: I mean, seriously, you really do have to wonder whether 590 00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:56,080 Speaker 2: we've turned some kind of corner where politics will be 591 00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:58,840 Speaker 2: coarse and nasty, brutish and short. 592 00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:01,920 Speaker 1: You've pro filed in terms of the chiefs of staff 593 00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:04,200 Speaker 1: and so forth, but beyond that, you've been around these 594 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:06,640 Speaker 1: people forever. The one thing that I was the most 595 00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:09,720 Speaker 1: surprised by in the first term and especially now in 596 00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:11,800 Speaker 1: the second term, I didn't know there were that many 597 00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:15,040 Speaker 1: people who were like minded with Trump. I didn't know 598 00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:17,520 Speaker 1: there were that many people to staff a White House 599 00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:20,680 Speaker 1: and there and their other offices to come to And 600 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:24,360 Speaker 1: I'm appalled by how many I don't want to say evil, 601 00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:30,080 Speaker 1: but hardline, vicious, non empathetic people are in Washington. Hundreds 602 00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:32,120 Speaker 1: of them showed up there to work. Did that surprise 603 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:34,240 Speaker 1: you or did you know they were always there waiting 604 00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:35,040 Speaker 1: for their moments? 605 00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:38,080 Speaker 2: It surprised me too. You know, the difference between Trump 606 00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:40,920 Speaker 2: one point oh and two point oh, there are a 607 00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:43,680 Speaker 2: number of differences, and one of them is Susie Wiles. 608 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:47,080 Speaker 2: She runs a tighter ship. But a major difference is 609 00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:51,600 Speaker 2: that everybody's reading from exactly the same playbook. We had certain, 610 00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:55,720 Speaker 2: you know, minor exceptions. I mean Susie in the Vanity 611 00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:59,520 Speaker 2: Fair piece, Susie Wiles told me there was real disagreement, 612 00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:03,200 Speaker 2: a real battle over tariffs. But you know, other than that, 613 00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:06,120 Speaker 2: they're essentially all reading from the same playbook. And you 614 00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:09,400 Speaker 2: don't have obviously, as everybody's pointed out, you don't have 615 00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:11,800 Speaker 2: a Gym Madison, you don't have a Rex Tillerson, you 616 00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:14,800 Speaker 2: don't have people who were trying to. 617 00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:16,200 Speaker 1: Quit opinions of their own. 618 00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:19,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's one of the reasons why there's been 619 00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:21,760 Speaker 2: a lot of speculation about why Susie talked to me, 620 00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:26,480 Speaker 2: why Susie Wells would do this, And again, I think 621 00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:28,760 Speaker 2: it's I think it's pretty simple. At the end of 622 00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:31,720 Speaker 2: the day, which is that they're in this bubble and 623 00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:35,400 Speaker 2: they forget that. A lot of the crazy stuff that 624 00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:40,320 Speaker 2: they're saying to each other all day long sounds insane 625 00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:43,800 Speaker 2: un planet Earth, but they're not on planet Earth. They're 626 00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:48,640 Speaker 2: in this bubble exponentially more so in the Trump White 627 00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:51,640 Speaker 2: House than in any other White House. And I think 628 00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:55,160 Speaker 2: that when the Vanity Fair piece landed, they were surprised. 629 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:03,000 Speaker 1: Journalist, author, and documentary filmmaker Chris Whipple. If you're enjoying 630 00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:06,320 Speaker 1: this conversation, tell a friend and be sure to follow 631 00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:11,120 Speaker 1: Here's the Thing on the iHeartRadio app, Spotify, or wherever 632 00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:15,080 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. When we come back, Chris Whipple 633 00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:17,759 Speaker 1: talks about why Bill Clinton might have been a one 634 00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:20,760 Speaker 1: term president or it not for his chief of staff 635 00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:36,080 Speaker 1: Leon Panetta. I'm Alec Baldwin, and this is Here's the Thing. 636 00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:41,239 Speaker 1: In twenty thirteen, Chris Whipple wrote and produced the documentary 637 00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:46,280 Speaker 1: series titled The President's Gatekeepers for Discovery Channel. The series 638 00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:51,200 Speaker 1: spanned nine presidential administrations and featured interviews with all nine 639 00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:56,160 Speaker 1: chiefs of staff. After the series, Whipple continued his research 640 00:34:56,719 --> 00:34:59,680 Speaker 1: his book The Gatekeepers, How the White House Chiefs of 641 00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:04,040 Speaker 1: Staff to Define Every Presidency was a New York Times bestseller. 642 00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:07,040 Speaker 1: The book was the first of its kind giving a 643 00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:10,000 Speaker 1: behind the scenes look into White House chiefs of staff. 644 00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:14,640 Speaker 1: Most recently, Whipple profiled the current White House Chief of Staff, 645 00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:19,640 Speaker 1: Susie Wiles, for Vanity Fair in twenty twenty five. Out 646 00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:22,160 Speaker 1: of all the chiefs of staff Whipple had interviewed and 647 00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:25,760 Speaker 1: researched over the years, I was curious which he admired 648 00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:26,240 Speaker 1: the most. 649 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:31,280 Speaker 2: James A. Baker the third, from Ronald Reagan, Leon Panetta 650 00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:34,240 Speaker 2: for Bill Clinton. I think you can make a really 651 00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:38,160 Speaker 2: strong case that there would have been no Reagan Revolution 652 00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:43,560 Speaker 2: without Jim Baker. And I'll give you an example. Ronald Reagan, 653 00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:47,120 Speaker 2: when he came into office, was hell bent on tackling 654 00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:53,920 Speaker 2: social security cutting. Jim Baker Sadam Dann and explained, Look, 655 00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:57,279 Speaker 2: social security is the third rail of American politics. You 656 00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:02,000 Speaker 2: touch it, you get electrocuted. You need let's put that off. 657 00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:06,080 Speaker 2: And the result was that Reagan pivoted to tax cuts 658 00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:09,560 Speaker 2: and was re elected in one of the largest landslides 659 00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:10,160 Speaker 2: in the history. 660 00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:10,600 Speaker 1: Yeah. 661 00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:13,920 Speaker 2: Now, Baker did it with help from Nancy Reagan, but 662 00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:16,160 Speaker 2: he was smart enough to round up the allies he 663 00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:18,920 Speaker 2: knew he needed to do that. Bill Clinton might have 664 00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:22,520 Speaker 2: been a one term president if not for Leon Panetta. 665 00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:27,080 Speaker 2: Eighteen months into Clinton's presidency, he was dead in the water, 666 00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:34,600 Speaker 2: paralyzed with all kinds of many rich scandals, Gingrich Travelgate, Whitewater, 667 00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:38,759 Speaker 2: you know, crazy little scannals that we've almost forgotten by now. 668 00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:41,760 Speaker 2: But he was in deep trouble and the White House 669 00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:46,600 Speaker 2: was really ineffective, and Leon Panetta came in and just 670 00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:50,960 Speaker 2: turned it around. He imposed real discipline on a guy 671 00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:54,279 Speaker 2: who was pretty hard to discipline, but Panetta did it. 672 00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:56,400 Speaker 2: Panetta was kind of guy who could walk into the 673 00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:59,440 Speaker 2: Oval office, close the door and tell Bill Clinton what 674 00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:03,359 Speaker 2: he didn't want here. There's nobody who can do that 675 00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:08,520 Speaker 2: with Donald Trump. Even though Susie Wiles. Here's the thing 676 00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:11,399 Speaker 2: about Susie Wiles, we'll never know what might have been 677 00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:15,680 Speaker 2: in a sense, because Susie Wiles has a kind of 678 00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:19,960 Speaker 2: magic with Trump. He trusts her, he pays attention to 679 00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:25,360 Speaker 2: her when she speaks. And yet it's clear, and I 680 00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:28,120 Speaker 2: document this over the course of eleven months of talking 681 00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:32,680 Speaker 2: to her, it's just clear that she has chosen not 682 00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:36,839 Speaker 2: to tell him hard truths. You know, she said I've 683 00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:39,680 Speaker 2: had white House chiefs tell me, some of my predecessors 684 00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:41,960 Speaker 2: say they have these seminal moments when they have to 685 00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:47,560 Speaker 2: confront the president about a constitutional issue. I don't have that. Well, 686 00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:51,200 Speaker 2: an empowered white House chief, an effective White House chief 687 00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:54,840 Speaker 2: has to have that. You have to be able to 688 00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:56,600 Speaker 2: tell the president what he doesn't want to hear. 689 00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:01,279 Speaker 1: I wonder sometimes you know who goes into that job, 690 00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:03,400 Speaker 1: and when you get the president's here, there's a lot, 691 00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:05,720 Speaker 1: there's a volume of people who could take that job, 692 00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:07,560 Speaker 1: and it want that job. But is that part of 693 00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:09,120 Speaker 1: it where they realize they can depend on you to 694 00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:11,759 Speaker 1: tell them the truth? Who was Obama chief of staff that. 695 00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:15,479 Speaker 2: You absolutely so? Obama had four? Ram Emmanuel was his first, 696 00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:19,520 Speaker 2: Dennis McDonough was his last, Bill Daly was his second, 697 00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:23,239 Speaker 2: and Jack Lou was his third. And not easy. I 698 00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:27,320 Speaker 2: mean it's it's they have his ear believably difficult jump. 699 00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:31,000 Speaker 2: I think Rom got true to him, Bill Daily not 700 00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:35,080 Speaker 2: so much. They just didn't click. And I think Lou 701 00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:38,279 Speaker 2: more so. And Dennis McDonald was the most successful. 702 00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:43,080 Speaker 1: Really for yeah, because Obama seems so inscrutable. He doesn't 703 00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:45,440 Speaker 1: seem like you have to really drill down to get 704 00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:48,520 Speaker 1: down to the real Obama. He's only going to share anything. 705 00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:51,200 Speaker 1: He only shared on an as needed basis with people. 706 00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:54,200 Speaker 1: That's where whereas Clinton always seemed to be more evuncular 707 00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:57,680 Speaker 1: than that. Now the spy masters have the CIA director 708 00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:00,160 Speaker 1: shape history and the future. What do you think about 709 00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:03,040 Speaker 1: the intelligence apparatus we have in place now? 710 00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:07,040 Speaker 2: Well, it's a really good question because, on the one hand, 711 00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:10,560 Speaker 2: the thing that, very much like a White House Chief 712 00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:13,800 Speaker 2: of staff, a CIA director has to be able to 713 00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:16,680 Speaker 2: tell the president heart truths, and it's not at all 714 00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:20,239 Speaker 2: clear to me that John Ratcliffe is the guy to 715 00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:24,640 Speaker 2: do that. I mean, Ratcliffe is famously partisan. And the 716 00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:29,240 Speaker 2: danger of that is that, you know, the CIA director 717 00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:31,919 Speaker 2: is the guy we count on to prevent another nine 718 00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:36,680 Speaker 2: to eleven or worldwide pandemic, all kinds of terrible things, 719 00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:38,759 Speaker 2: and if you can't count on that guy to tell 720 00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:42,160 Speaker 2: you hard truths, you're in trouble. Having said that, look, 721 00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:45,839 Speaker 2: I mean, clearly, we've had a couple of operations that 722 00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:49,480 Speaker 2: have been very successful in the short term. I mean, 723 00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:54,960 Speaker 2: the bunker busting operation in Iran, the snatching of Maduro, 724 00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:59,920 Speaker 2: whatever you may think of that idea was pretty effectively executed. 725 00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:03,000 Speaker 2: So the CIA is doing something right, but we're just 726 00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:04,920 Speaker 2: gonna have to see all how all of this plays out, 727 00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:07,480 Speaker 2: because these are a long way from over. 728 00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:10,880 Speaker 1: I've always maintained when I was more involved in politics 729 00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:13,520 Speaker 1: and candidateseas per se, I always used to say that 730 00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:17,080 Speaker 1: the former director of the CIA or the Energy Department 731 00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:20,400 Speaker 1: were automatically disqualified from being president, but they woke up 732 00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:22,320 Speaker 1: every morning. He had to lie to the American people 733 00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:24,799 Speaker 1: for a living. When I said that to Bill Ridge, 734 00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:26,800 Speaker 1: and Negolands looked me like, you can leave now, you 735 00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:29,080 Speaker 1: know what I mean. But he was about to run 736 00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:30,799 Speaker 1: for something out of coming out of New Mexico. Ye, 737 00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:31,960 Speaker 1: what are you working on now? 738 00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:34,880 Speaker 2: Actually, I've gone back to the book that I was 739 00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:37,760 Speaker 2: working on when I first started talking to Susie Wilds 740 00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:41,120 Speaker 2: for Vanity Fair, for the piece that became a Vanity 741 00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:44,560 Speaker 2: Fair piece, And that is the history of Presidential campaign Managers, 742 00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:49,360 Speaker 2: the working titles the Kingmakers, and it's a really fascinating 743 00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:54,359 Speaker 2: cast of characters. Right sixty eight an unbelievable campaign. You know, 744 00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:59,959 Speaker 2: two assassinations, at least two more than that. MLK, Bobby Kennan, 745 00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:05,360 Speaker 2: the Hubert Humphrey almost caught Nixon in a photo finish 746 00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:10,320 Speaker 2: because interestingly, he really broke with LBJ on the conduct 747 00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:13,279 Speaker 2: of the Vietnam War. I always thought Kamala Harris should 748 00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:17,520 Speaker 2: have taken a page from Hubert Humphrey and distanced herself 749 00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:20,279 Speaker 2: from Biden, But that's another story. In twenty twenty. 750 00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:22,680 Speaker 1: Four, Mitchell was his campaign manage. 751 00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:25,839 Speaker 2: John Mitchell campaign manager. In sixty eight, hr Haldeman was 752 00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:27,000 Speaker 2: sort of his deputy. 753 00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:29,480 Speaker 1: There's such a flurry of facts in All the President's Men. 754 00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:33,160 Speaker 1: I participated in a staged reading of the screenplay of 755 00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:36,520 Speaker 1: All the Presidents Men, and Carl and Bob came. 756 00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:39,560 Speaker 2: My favorite story about tell me if this is true. 757 00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:43,720 Speaker 2: My favorite story is that the screenplay was a mess 758 00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:48,280 Speaker 2: to the late William Goldman, who was a terrific screenwrin. 759 00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:52,000 Speaker 2: But the screenplay was a mess. Carl Bernstein took it 760 00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:55,320 Speaker 2: home one night and Nora efren rewrote it overnight. 761 00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:58,040 Speaker 1: Well that may be, so, can't roll that out. He 762 00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:00,200 Speaker 1: was married to her for that period of time. It's 763 00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:03,080 Speaker 1: amazing the facts that come flying. But I forgot that 764 00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:06,439 Speaker 1: Mitchell was his campaign manager. That's sixty eight campaign. 765 00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:09,040 Speaker 2: Absolutely and then became his attorney general and ended up 766 00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:10,560 Speaker 2: in prison along. 767 00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:12,680 Speaker 1: With a bunch of others Christ before those were the 768 00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:14,480 Speaker 1: days when they ended up in prison. 769 00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:17,839 Speaker 2: So anyway, sixty eight is the beginning, and when I'm done, 770 00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:19,239 Speaker 2: I'm going to bring it all the way up to 771 00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:22,319 Speaker 2: the present. But it's been amazing. Gary Hart. I was 772 00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:25,719 Speaker 2: talking to Gary Hart, who lives on a road called 773 00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:27,680 Speaker 2: Troublesome Gulch in Colorado. 774 00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:29,359 Speaker 1: I saw that big article in the Times about him 775 00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:29,839 Speaker 1: years ago. 776 00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:34,160 Speaker 2: Gary Hart famously his campaign fell apart after a scandal 777 00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:38,000 Speaker 2: with a girl named donnad Rice. Of course, but boy 778 00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:39,200 Speaker 2: does Heart have some story. 779 00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:41,400 Speaker 1: Monkey Business was the name of the. 780 00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:43,399 Speaker 2: Name of the boat. But boy does Gary Hart still 781 00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:44,560 Speaker 2: have some stories to tell. 782 00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:48,000 Speaker 1: I want to say, thank you. What an amazing career 783 00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:50,600 Speaker 1: you've had. What a great career you've had to do 784 00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:54,560 Speaker 1: journalism and do television news and then do these books. 785 00:42:54,560 --> 00:42:57,680 Speaker 1: It's just amazing. I hope you're happy that's your career, 786 00:42:57,920 --> 00:42:59,200 Speaker 1: even an amazing career. 787 00:42:59,239 --> 00:42:59,960 Speaker 2: Oh thanks for having me. 788 00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:06,680 Speaker 1: My thanks to journalist and author Chris Whipple. This episode 789 00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:10,480 Speaker 1: was recorded at CDM Studios in New York City. We're 790 00:43:10,520 --> 00:43:14,520 Speaker 1: produced by Kathleen Russo, Zach MacNeice, and Victoria de Martin. 791 00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:19,040 Speaker 1: Our engineer is Isaac Kaplan Woolner. Our social media manager 792 00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:22,520 Speaker 1: is Danielle Gingrich. I'm Alec Baldwin. Here's the thing is 793 00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:43,800 Speaker 1: brought to you by iHeart Radio