1 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 1: Another steep, snowy mountain road in Ukraine, but this time 2 00:00:15,240 --> 00:00:20,840 Speaker 1: there was nothing to fear on the other side. We 3 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:25,759 Speaker 1: did it before meeting with father Abbott, Gregory went and 4 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:29,280 Speaker 1: Petra Tarenta, Paula and I made a whirlwind visit to 5 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:34,800 Speaker 1: see the kofels at Mike's childhood home in Regovina Bistra. Wow, 6 00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:39,360 Speaker 1: tell her it smells in here. It was truly a whirlwind. 7 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:42,239 Speaker 1: We couldn't stay long, but in that time Maria and 8 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:46,479 Speaker 1: Yuri buzzed around like two excited bees, showing us literally everything, 9 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:50,880 Speaker 1: their cows and chickens, their farming tools, Mike's old sled, 10 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:56,040 Speaker 1: the dog. What's the dog's name again? What are you doing? 11 00:00:56,720 --> 00:00:59,000 Speaker 1: We talked so much and so fast, I was worried 12 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:06,120 Speaker 1: our translator you was going to explode. So the house 13 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:09,000 Speaker 1: wasn't too different from what the investigators who visited twenty 14 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:12,720 Speaker 1: years ago saw. Maybe the biggest difference was now they 15 00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:15,480 Speaker 1: had a bathroom inside. They did have a lot of 16 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:19,200 Speaker 1: Byzantine images on the walls, but also photos of Mike 17 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:23,040 Speaker 1: when he was a kid. Between the framed pictures, we 18 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:26,240 Speaker 1: noticed that even had two photos of Paula, Mike and 19 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:32,039 Speaker 1: me from some of our prison visits. At one point, 20 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:34,640 Speaker 1: Yuri came zooming into the living room with an old 21 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:38,040 Speaker 1: VHS tape and he popped it into the VCR under 22 00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:42,279 Speaker 1: their little color TV. It went staticky and black. Then 23 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 1: pixelated white letters flashed on the screen. It said graduation, 24 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:51,880 Speaker 1: Sister Marie and Sister Chef. It was Mike's high school 25 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:55,160 Speaker 1: commencement ceremony from Holy Cross. And we stood around and 26 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 1: watched as so many of the people we've talked about 27 00:01:57,720 --> 00:02:09,720 Speaker 1: through the years came gliding down the aisle. Father, the 28 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:13,280 Speaker 1: last person in the procession was Father went. He walked 29 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:16,400 Speaker 1: through the auditorium door in a wide black robe with 30 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:21,120 Speaker 1: two huge white crosses on the sides. Seeing him on 31 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:25,519 Speaker 1: the video snapped me back into reality. Not long from now, 32 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:28,440 Speaker 1: the man on the screen would walk through a different 33 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:40,040 Speaker 1: door and reopen his own past. I'm Paula Barrows and 34 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:49,760 Speaker 1: I'm Melanie Bartley, and this is sacred scandal. But you 35 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 1: would understand why we want your voice on here that 36 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:56,760 Speaker 1: came up on this hill to hear your version of 37 00:02:56,800 --> 00:03:07,120 Speaker 1: the story. You know what I mean. I was going 38 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:10,880 Speaker 1: to ask you a question because you talk about the aftermath. Yeah, 39 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 1: when is the aftermath? And when does it start? When 40 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:33,919 Speaker 1: does it end? Well on the way to the bridge, 41 00:03:33,919 --> 00:03:37,240 Speaker 1: is Bridge is almost at the bridge where Petro will 42 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 1: be waiting for us. After leaving the cafels, we drove 43 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:45,000 Speaker 1: back toward Usgara to drop off our translator, Julia and 44 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:47,920 Speaker 1: meet up with Petro, who would lead us to the monastery. 45 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:51,360 Speaker 1: I'm scared that I'm scared that I might do something 46 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:54,720 Speaker 1: wrong and upset him. But I really just wanted you 47 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 1: can ask him the questions, you know, Yeah, I think 48 00:03:56,720 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 1: this is him. Two days after our first visit there, 49 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:04,360 Speaker 1: all the snow already melted, so the impassable hill was 50 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:07,280 Speaker 1: a little easier to drive out. Yeah, this looks a 51 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:11,440 Speaker 1: lot less threatening. It's a lot less the shining. When 52 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:13,680 Speaker 1: we got to the top, we were amazed by what 53 00:04:13,760 --> 00:04:16,800 Speaker 1: we saw. It was a huge fenced and clearing in 54 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:20,960 Speaker 1: the forest. In the far back corner, the new monastery 55 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:27,960 Speaker 1: with its gold domed top, loomed over everything. This is 56 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 1: so cool. It was scary before the interview. Petro let 57 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:41,680 Speaker 1: us take a look around the monastery, and being inside 58 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:49,320 Speaker 1: was a little emotional for me. You know. The first right, 59 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:53,120 Speaker 1: the walls were covered with Bysantine iconography like the ones 60 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:55,960 Speaker 1: that used to be in Holy Cross, the ones that 61 00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:58,599 Speaker 1: Paula and I saw were painted over just a few 62 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:02,760 Speaker 1: weeks before coming here pat church and we were also, like, 63 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:06,680 Speaker 1: we do, but it doesn't have any chography. Well, first 64 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:09,560 Speaker 1: we had moved into there, but Petro said they weren't 65 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:14,000 Speaker 1: painted over. These were the same murals from my school. 66 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:17,560 Speaker 1: They had them cut off the walls, packed into a 67 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 1: container ship and sent all the way across Europe to 68 00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:24,480 Speaker 1: this new monastery. I was stunned to see those same 69 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:27,160 Speaker 1: images I used to look at every day so far 70 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:33,400 Speaker 1: from Miami. We thought it was painted over. Yeah, I 71 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:36,600 Speaker 1: can't believe, and this is possible, And here it is. 72 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:45,440 Speaker 1: It's amazing. It's not kind of like a rough. After 73 00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:48,680 Speaker 1: a few minutes at the monastery, Petro walked us across 74 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:51,599 Speaker 1: the ground to a small cabin that they used for 75 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:56,440 Speaker 1: gatherings after Sunday services. Then he left to get father. Went. 76 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:04,400 Speaker 1: We came here searching for their perspective. When we first 77 00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:07,279 Speaker 1: entered the cabin, we had no idea we'd be leaving 78 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 1: a few hours later, feeling like we just heard an 79 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:13,440 Speaker 1: entirely different story than the one we thought we knew. 80 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:17,520 Speaker 1: Paula and I sat next to each other on one 81 00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 1: side of a table in the middle of the room. 82 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:23,160 Speaker 1: Then we waited for Petro to come back with Father 83 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:32,440 Speaker 1: went do you kiss their hand? No? Do you see 84 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:40,320 Speaker 1: the sweat on my hands? Literally got it. You're amazing, 85 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:50,720 Speaker 1: You're smart. Our father high. When he came in. He 86 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:53,360 Speaker 1: wasn't wearing the long black robe and tall hat I 87 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 1: always remembered him in, but a black leather jacket. He 88 00:06:57,680 --> 00:07:00,599 Speaker 1: was definitely still the tallest person in the room, but 89 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:03,880 Speaker 1: felt older than the last time I saw him, and 90 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:06,760 Speaker 1: Petro had to drive him over to the cabin, which 91 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:10,280 Speaker 1: was only a few meters away from their house. A 92 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:12,480 Speaker 1: huge part of me felt bad seeing him so much 93 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:16,360 Speaker 1: frailer than the image I had in my mind, and 94 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:19,600 Speaker 1: as a former student of Holy Cross, I felt guilty 95 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:22,440 Speaker 1: during the whole interview for bringing all of this tragedy 96 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 1: back into both of their lives. And listening back to 97 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:28,320 Speaker 1: the recording a few weeks later, I feel like I 98 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 1: sound way more agreeable with them than I should have 99 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:35,520 Speaker 1: been that day. He's in his late seventies and we 100 00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:38,800 Speaker 1: didn't know what to be prepared for. Petro told us 101 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 1: that father wants memory isn't always the best these days, 102 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:44,920 Speaker 1: so he might not remember every detail we were after 103 00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:50,480 Speaker 1: maybe like sit sit in, sit in, I love it 104 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:53,600 Speaker 1: if you were Petro took a seat on a small 105 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:57,080 Speaker 1: sofa off against the wall, and Father went sat alone, 106 00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:00,760 Speaker 1: directly across from Paula and me say in here like this. 107 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:04,160 Speaker 1: It kind of felt like an interrogation. I couldn't help 108 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:06,880 Speaker 1: but think of how we probably looked like the attorneys 109 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:10,160 Speaker 1: Gay Levine and Edith Georgie when they sat together across 110 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 1: from the priests and heard nothing but the Fifth Amendment 111 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 1: for hours. And at first we wondered if things might 112 00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:21,120 Speaker 1: be on that same strange course. Even though we already 113 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:23,480 Speaker 1: talked about the details of the interview for an hour 114 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 1: earlier that day, we spent nearly the first twenty minutes 115 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:29,880 Speaker 1: of this conversation trying to navigate what would be on 116 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:33,960 Speaker 1: the record and renegotiating everything with Father went that's what 117 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 1: you said us true, with a caveat that I get 118 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:41,480 Speaker 1: to say that I don't want to scoring in or 119 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:45,040 Speaker 1: whatever after we get farther along. You know, you thought 120 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:48,960 Speaker 1: you thought we could be doing something good. I'm very 121 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:52,559 Speaker 1: much for anything that's good. Keep in mind that over 122 00:08:52,559 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 1: the last few days we only ever communicated with Petrol. 123 00:08:56,559 --> 00:08:59,840 Speaker 1: Father went read but never replied to our texts, an 124 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:03,920 Speaker 1: been called us through Petro's phone. By now, Petro felt 125 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:09,320 Speaker 1: kind of like the priest's handler. Also, and again through Petro, 126 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:12,360 Speaker 1: Father went asked for a list of questions that we 127 00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:15,840 Speaker 1: might ask, which we shared. But it was clear when 128 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:18,080 Speaker 1: we spoke to him in person that he wasn't just 129 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:21,400 Speaker 1: drifting along in the background. He was getting ready to 130 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 1: talk to us and preparing his responses. Other conversations were 131 00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:29,280 Speaker 1: happening before we got there too. Well. I spoke to 132 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:34,960 Speaker 1: Father Damian this afternoon. You did very interested to hear 133 00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:40,800 Speaker 1: what you're really What did he say? I'm so curious. Um, 134 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:43,080 Speaker 1: I think he would have liked to have been here, 135 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:46,480 Speaker 1: but I would love to interview him. Do you think 136 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:50,320 Speaker 1: he would let me? Probably not because he doesn't like us. Oh, 137 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 1: it's good that it's you. I don't like it. I'm 138 00:09:53,600 --> 00:10:00,840 Speaker 1: not the one that likes interviewing not I think him 139 00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:03,920 Speaker 1: or less him to the decision. If it's one of us, 140 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:07,840 Speaker 1: it's you. And once we did actually get the interview started, 141 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 1: we were still worried how it might go. What felt 142 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:15,280 Speaker 1: like some of the simplest questions had the most complicated answers. 143 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:19,120 Speaker 1: I would love an introduction. State your name please for me, 144 00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:23,520 Speaker 1: and who you are in relation to Holy Cross? The 145 00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:26,640 Speaker 1: Holy quest doesn't exist any longer. Who you were in 146 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:34,199 Speaker 1: relation to who was my name? Is probably the most 147 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 1: difficult time of answers, because we were not simply priests, 148 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:47,600 Speaker 1: and we were not simply monks, but we were among 149 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:52,960 Speaker 1: priests as such. This aside about ecclesiastical titles went on 150 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 1: for about a solid minute until he made his point, 151 00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 1: and even that response felt like he was maybe preempting 152 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 1: later questions about his own titles. I never became a bishop, 153 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:06,800 Speaker 1: but almost all of the other positions, at some point 154 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:13,680 Speaker 1: or another I legitimately held. So getting back to what 155 00:11:13,880 --> 00:11:16,000 Speaker 1: my name is or what would you like to call 156 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:18,640 Speaker 1: me tonight? I want to know what you would like 157 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:21,680 Speaker 1: to be called. The name that was originally given to 158 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:24,720 Speaker 1: me by the bishop was Gregory um okay, and your 159 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:28,360 Speaker 1: relation to Holy Cross back then, what was it? I 160 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:33,640 Speaker 1: was the founder and as long as we used a 161 00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:44,280 Speaker 1: title headmaster, then it was me. Sometimes Father went would 162 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 1: answer our questions, sometimes he refused. Then other times the 163 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:51,760 Speaker 1: priests would go on long tangents where it felt like 164 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:54,400 Speaker 1: he was trying to get Melanie and me to forget 165 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:57,520 Speaker 1: what we asked in the first place. As we talked, 166 00:11:57,880 --> 00:12:00,160 Speaker 1: Petro would jump in to help fill the gaps m 167 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:03,320 Speaker 1: and we went on like this into the evening. For 168 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:07,560 Speaker 1: the next few hours. We'd cover the eparchy investigation, the 169 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:12,079 Speaker 1: sex abuse allegations, and Sister Michelle's murder, and he'd tell 170 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:15,200 Speaker 1: us aspects of this case that we've never heard before. 171 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:36,200 Speaker 1: We'll pick up our interview after a break. Welcome back 172 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:41,360 Speaker 1: to Sacred Scandal. When we started talking with Father Went 173 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:44,200 Speaker 1: and Petrol, we didn't want to get too far ahead 174 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:47,200 Speaker 1: of ourselves. Were worried they might kick us out if 175 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:51,160 Speaker 1: we immediately jumped into the difficult stuff. So we started 176 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:54,400 Speaker 1: simple with Holy Cross and how the idea came to 177 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:59,440 Speaker 1: start a religious school, and we're basically where I started 178 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:03,359 Speaker 1: dropped at first. I wanted something that was serious about 179 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:07,840 Speaker 1: our religion, thanking our religion and talking about the Catholic system. 180 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:11,920 Speaker 1: Whether it's Eastern Western, I don't care, but it was 181 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:16,600 Speaker 1: that's how I grew up. So that was the thing. 182 00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:21,319 Speaker 1: I wanted, something serious about religion. Why if religion isn't serious, 183 00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:25,920 Speaker 1: what do we have? So that's why I was serious 184 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:29,880 Speaker 1: because I said, this is serious. I've always heard of serious. 185 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:32,720 Speaker 1: My mother said it was serious, my father said it was. 186 00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:38,400 Speaker 1: So that's the reason for religious And the thing is 187 00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:43,720 Speaker 1: I was always attracted, you know, to learning. I was 188 00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:47,000 Speaker 1: very happy. Most of the kids were screaming and yelling 189 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:52,800 Speaker 1: that they had to learn Latin. I was very happy learning. 190 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:55,079 Speaker 1: I thought it was always a help to us that 191 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 1: we were plugged in to the local school system, not 192 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:05,400 Speaker 1: meaning the law, but the Catholic schools, and which you know, 193 00:14:05,559 --> 00:14:09,240 Speaker 1: some of them are dioecesan under a bishop, as some 194 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:12,880 Speaker 1: of them are not ever under a bishop, and so forth, 195 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:17,120 Speaker 1: so that there's the sort of the structures of how 196 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:22,720 Speaker 1: they you know, so was Holy Cross Academy and monastery 197 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:31,360 Speaker 1: under a bishop woll yes and no, okay, So as 198 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:36,560 Speaker 1: soon as we were established as a monastery, and that 199 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:42,000 Speaker 1: once you're talking about it a monastery that actually exists, 200 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:46,960 Speaker 1: then there's certain things bishop has no right trying to 201 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:52,760 Speaker 1: do over there, that sort of things. So monasteries are 202 00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:57,440 Speaker 1: usually run by monks, and if you have a diocesan 203 00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:00,600 Speaker 1: priest who knows nothing about monks, he's not going to 204 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:05,920 Speaker 1: be too helpful at best. So when you found it 205 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:12,080 Speaker 1: Holy Cross Academy UM and Monastery. As far as I understand, 206 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:17,600 Speaker 1: you were under the jurisdiction of the Eparchy of Passaic, 207 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:23,120 Speaker 1: New Jersey. Is that correct. I'm not going to touch 208 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:28,680 Speaker 1: trance because it's fine for where we are. Though he 209 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:32,480 Speaker 1: gave unclear answers about Holy Cross status within the Byzantine 210 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:35,840 Speaker 1: Catholic Church. Father Went was more than happy to talk 211 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:39,800 Speaker 1: about Bishop Andrew Pataki, who started the investigation into the 212 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:47,000 Speaker 1: school and monastery. And we had a really incredible bishop 213 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:51,600 Speaker 1: at one point, Andrew Pataki. And if if you've read 214 00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:59,040 Speaker 1: any Darrel Andrew um anyway, I don't want to get 215 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 1: a Bash Andrew session because Sister Michelle and I fell 216 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:08,440 Speaker 1: into that too easily. Sister Michelle was not buying any 217 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:13,360 Speaker 1: of what Andrew Patucki was trying to sell. Shove you 218 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:17,080 Speaker 1: know what you feel in your own verbs. She didn't 219 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:20,960 Speaker 1: have any interest in him and the from the get go, 220 00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:26,840 Speaker 1: and he pretty much since that's where it stood. But 221 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:31,800 Speaker 1: before it really all got bad, let me backmap to them, 222 00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:35,280 Speaker 1: because you should hear Pataki was going to come what 223 00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:41,640 Speaker 1: they called vegetation and basically system. Michelle got me in 224 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:45,920 Speaker 1: a corner and said You're going to have to see 225 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:49,720 Speaker 1: to it that I don't punch him in the face. 226 00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:55,800 Speaker 1: It's your job that he doesn't leave this place, you know, 227 00:16:56,040 --> 00:17:01,720 Speaker 1: bring two black eyes. I counted as one of my 228 00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:08,240 Speaker 1: great errors of my life that one Pottaki was ordained 229 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:12,240 Speaker 1: a bishop. I had an invitation to go to the 230 00:17:12,320 --> 00:17:16,359 Speaker 1: Holy Land, and I could either go to the Holy 231 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:23,720 Speaker 1: Land or I could go to Pottaki's you know, Yeah, 232 00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:26,640 Speaker 1: this is cold an infroment. Believe it or not, it's 233 00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:30,639 Speaker 1: very fitting. So that's the thing. I went to the 234 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:33,720 Speaker 1: in throement. I never regretted it more, and I never 235 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:38,159 Speaker 1: got to go to the Hole Land. As he went 236 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:41,080 Speaker 1: on about Pottaki, we didn't even have to ask. Father 237 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:44,600 Speaker 1: went why he disliked the bishop so much? May I 238 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:47,119 Speaker 1: tell you the question? Everyone would really want to know 239 00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:52,119 Speaker 1: what you're not asking? Um, what was Pottaki interested in? 240 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:57,840 Speaker 1: Was he interested in Holycrost? This Holocaust? Heck no, what 241 00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:01,760 Speaker 1: would he like to have seen me fail? So? Any right? 242 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:07,359 Speaker 1: When you know, and he would had his ideas immediately 243 00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:11,800 Speaker 1: obvious to me what he was going for. He wanted 244 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:18,159 Speaker 1: me out of there, and that while I was gone, 245 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:25,040 Speaker 1: the school could be foreclosed on by the diocese, you know, 246 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:28,320 Speaker 1: specifically him that I have some bishop because we wanted 247 00:18:28,359 --> 00:18:31,600 Speaker 1: all the money. They wanted the money, and so that's 248 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:33,840 Speaker 1: why he wrote that letter to the Vatican that leader. 249 00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:41,080 Speaker 1: It wasn't even that good. Did you hear this part 250 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:45,240 Speaker 1: from someone else, a friend of a friend or We 251 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:48,600 Speaker 1: asked if he knew the Vatican's verdict on Bishop attacky suggestions, 252 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:52,480 Speaker 1: and he didn't really answer the question, but he said 253 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:58,199 Speaker 1: the result was clear. But the point is ATTACKI, you know, 254 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:03,920 Speaker 1: received response that I get thrown out. Did he get 255 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:08,040 Speaker 1: what he wanted? No? And what is the process if 256 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:12,600 Speaker 1: you want to switch from the Byzantine Catholic Church to 257 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:15,680 Speaker 1: the o c A. As you guys did, How how 258 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:18,800 Speaker 1: you go? How did you go about that? What was 259 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 1: the process? The pung process? Is it difficult? Is it? Well? 260 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:24,439 Speaker 1: First of all, you have to get acquainted with what 261 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:28,639 Speaker 1: is the Orthodox system of worship, So you have to 262 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:32,679 Speaker 1: go through all these things which are only common sence. No, 263 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:35,000 Speaker 1: I was just gonna say that we were practicing the 264 00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:37,840 Speaker 1: Orthodox way in the Catholic Church. That's what it was. 265 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:40,080 Speaker 1: That's why we were business in. We were practicing the 266 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:43,480 Speaker 1: Orthodox way in the Catholic Church because that's a branch 267 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:47,040 Speaker 1: of Catholic Church, Eastern branch. That's why when we became Orthodox, 268 00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:49,720 Speaker 1: when the Orthox Bishop came to receive us in Miami, 269 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 1: he saw that our church, the econography was there, not 270 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:55,520 Speaker 1: the statutes, because that's one of the major differences between 271 00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:58,639 Speaker 1: the two churches. You know, the econography is that the 272 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:03,040 Speaker 1: music is very similar. The garments that the monks were 273 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:05,159 Speaker 1: are the same. You know that the bishop said, you 274 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:07,000 Speaker 1: don't have to change anything, you don't have to adapt, 275 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:09,040 Speaker 1: you already practicing it. And so you had a good 276 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:12,399 Speaker 1: relationship with the bishop, with every person and with the 277 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:15,960 Speaker 1: other bishops of the church in America. We heard that 278 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:20,159 Speaker 1: there was a little scandal within the o c a. 279 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:27,080 Speaker 1: A Metropolitan Herman and Chondratic were accused of financial misconduct. 280 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:31,440 Speaker 1: Let's break it down to the simple money, right. Chndratic 281 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:35,719 Speaker 1: learned how to steal money. You know, Herman was apparently 282 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:38,560 Speaker 1: I like him, I mean, let you know which Siddoman 283 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:43,160 Speaker 1: I like him, but he didn't. Apparently they didn't keep 284 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:50,679 Speaker 1: enough oversight. We brought up their next move from the 285 00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:54,280 Speaker 1: o c A To the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, but they 286 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:57,440 Speaker 1: made it seem as if the Os investigation and their 287 00:20:57,480 --> 00:21:00,960 Speaker 1: switch was just a coincidence. They bought this land in 288 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:04,080 Speaker 1: Ukraine years earlier and always planned to come here to 289 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:07,760 Speaker 1: build a monastery in the Carpathian Mountains and the medical 290 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:11,439 Speaker 1: center in Uzgarod. Leaving the o c A was simply 291 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:14,639 Speaker 1: part of realizing that goal. So then you left the 292 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:17,080 Speaker 1: o c A at some point, Right, we left because 293 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:20,800 Speaker 1: we came here. Right, it's like we're changing jurisdiction. We 294 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:26,080 Speaker 1: got permission from the traveled to the Orthodox bishop over 295 00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:30,520 Speaker 1: here that I would be able to receive us. Now, 296 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:35,040 Speaker 1: almost ten years after coming to Ukraine, things changed again. 297 00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:39,320 Speaker 1: Even though the money they got from selling off Holy 298 00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:42,399 Speaker 1: Cross would go farther here, it would not last forever. 299 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:46,800 Speaker 1: It sounded like the medical center never got steady business, 300 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:50,040 Speaker 1: and they needed funds to buy supplies and to maintain 301 00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:53,439 Speaker 1: hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of equipment. It was 302 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:57,840 Speaker 1: expensive and in the end it didn't work out. Now, 303 00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:00,480 Speaker 1: the Monk of Asill and Father Damien we're back in 304 00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:03,840 Speaker 1: North Carolina working in a grocery store to help them 305 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:06,880 Speaker 1: get by. I heard um, I think we talked about 306 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:09,640 Speaker 1: this yesterday, that they both had to get jobs. They 307 00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:14,920 Speaker 1: have to work now since they got back. Why why 308 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:18,160 Speaker 1: is that? Why did they have to get you no money? 309 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:23,520 Speaker 1: That's the one reason we went back because in America 310 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:26,960 Speaker 1: you can make real money with real work. It doesn't 311 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:32,840 Speaker 1: go that way here. Sometimes it does. And we're at 312 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:38,439 Speaker 1: the point we're, you know, either we come to find 313 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:46,080 Speaker 1: some legitimate way of bringing in you know, means to 314 00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 1: support not just ourselves. But you have America going on, 315 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:57,240 Speaker 1: you have Fortia going on, you have a hospital and 316 00:22:57,320 --> 00:22:59,920 Speaker 1: who did you see it? We did? We don't, we don't. 317 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:07,600 Speaker 1: It's beautiful, Yeah, and that's must have our life's work. 318 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:13,200 Speaker 1: Their life's work includes two monasteries and a small hospital. 319 00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:15,919 Speaker 1: But it was the first dream that they were a 320 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:20,520 Speaker 1: part of Holy Cross Academy. That could have gone so differently. Now, 321 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:21,919 Speaker 1: I just kind of want to know, like, yeah, like 322 00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:24,120 Speaker 1: did that affect you guys? Like that did that make 323 00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:27,399 Speaker 1: Did that make you the success? Everybody knows that. And 324 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:29,520 Speaker 1: I think if we didn't have this incidents, we might 325 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:31,240 Speaker 1: still have had the school to this day, and I 326 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:33,960 Speaker 1: think our lives might have turned out very different. I 327 00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:36,840 Speaker 1: think I might have We probably would still have been 328 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:42,760 Speaker 1: there right a possible We're stuff in there in Miami. 329 00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:48,199 Speaker 1: Coming up after a break, we get their side on 330 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:52,280 Speaker 1: sister Michelle's murder and everything that happened after. Stay with us, 331 00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:09,000 Speaker 1: Welcome back to Sacred Scandal. I'm Paula Burrows and I'm 332 00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:14,720 Speaker 1: Melanie Bartley. Like the lawyers twenty years ago who investigated 333 00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:18,440 Speaker 1: the sexual abuse allegations, we were curious why the priests 334 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:21,720 Speaker 1: from Holy Cross recruited fourteen and fifteen year old boys 335 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:24,760 Speaker 1: instead of adults, and why they had to go all 336 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:28,399 Speaker 1: the way to Ukraine to get them. Father went on. 337 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 1: Petrol told us that bringing over teenage recruits was not 338 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:34,439 Speaker 1: the initial plan, but was the one that seemed to 339 00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:37,280 Speaker 1: work out best at the time. I wanted to clarif 340 00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:40,520 Speaker 1: us about it because you had why you created mechanics 341 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:42,680 Speaker 1: from you creating another important thing that people might want 342 00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:46,360 Speaker 1: to know. You guys tried to have American people right, 343 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:50,480 Speaker 1: and it just never worked out. You have candidates, you 344 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:54,320 Speaker 1: said that, you know. Also people came, they tried, and 345 00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:57,320 Speaker 1: they left, you know, like there was nobody that would 346 00:24:57,320 --> 00:24:59,840 Speaker 1: stick up, you know, And that's why since they knew 347 00:24:59,880 --> 00:25:03,400 Speaker 1: him Ukraine, the new people more religious here, that there 348 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:05,720 Speaker 1: was no chance to find somebody that would be there 349 00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:07,920 Speaker 1: for a long time. That was the idea. Wife and 350 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:11,240 Speaker 1: the greg came to Ukraine to search. The first group 351 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:19,120 Speaker 1: I had were all adult adolescence. The embassy you would say, 352 00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:22,879 Speaker 1: you're just trying to import people for work, you know 353 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:28,240 Speaker 1: some of our work group. I said, no, that's how 354 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:31,440 Speaker 1: it happened because the US Embassy told me go in 355 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:33,359 Speaker 1: this direction and we'll see if we can catch to 356 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:36,440 Speaker 1: some in America. So the Embassy was basically saying that 357 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:41,480 Speaker 1: they had to be younger for for them to facilitate 358 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:45,639 Speaker 1: their ones can be looking for jobs on Miami Beach 359 00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:49,360 Speaker 1: and getting younger Monk candidates who could also attend Holy 360 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:53,080 Speaker 1: Cross Academy made their paperwork even simpler. That would be 361 00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:55,520 Speaker 1: the easiest thing. And if you remember what was our 362 00:25:55,600 --> 00:26:00,679 Speaker 1: second line of work, school, so we could right defeas 363 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:06,000 Speaker 1: as ourselves. Petro's story of becoming a candidate was pretty 364 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:08,880 Speaker 1: different to Mike's. He told us that he met father, 365 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:12,159 Speaker 1: went the winter before coming to Miami and spent almost 366 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:15,760 Speaker 1: six months in the candidate's house in Ukraine. Mike was 367 00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:19,240 Speaker 1: only there for one month before moving to Florida. Back then, 368 00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:21,800 Speaker 1: they both said Mike was kind of quiet and kept 369 00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 1: to himself so much so that Petro had no memory 370 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:30,120 Speaker 1: of Mike ever being at the candidate's house. Father Went 371 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:33,600 Speaker 1: didn't really remember Mike's short month at the house in Ukraine, either, 372 00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:37,359 Speaker 1: but we asked if they would have noticed any red 373 00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:39,520 Speaker 1: flags about Mike if he had spent more than just 374 00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:43,520 Speaker 1: a few weeks at the training house. I'm trying to 375 00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:47,439 Speaker 1: be honest. I'm not going backwards at that point. I 376 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:52,639 Speaker 1: don't understand any red flax. And it's very interesting. There's 377 00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:56,679 Speaker 1: later on, when there's case developed into more of a 378 00:26:56,760 --> 00:27:01,560 Speaker 1: case and all of this business that, you know, it 379 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:07,040 Speaker 1: became interesting to see when did these things start actually 380 00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:13,320 Speaker 1: having meaning, you know, wonders being a kind of quiet 381 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:20,520 Speaker 1: person start to mean or some kind of an unhealthily 382 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:27,800 Speaker 1: quiet person. Father Went also told us that it wasn't 383 00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:31,679 Speaker 1: him who suggested Mike should come to Miami. I didn't 384 00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:35,800 Speaker 1: pick him. I could tell you it was. I came 385 00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:42,600 Speaker 1: to Zaka Pacha the first time with two priests. One 386 00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:45,639 Speaker 1: was a Jesuit and the other one excuse me, this 387 00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:49,000 Speaker 1: was a jesuit's father. He was not a priest, and 388 00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:53,760 Speaker 1: they basically took me all over and her father could 389 00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:57,880 Speaker 1: speak everything they speak over here Hungary and go down 390 00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:03,359 Speaker 1: the list and Friest's father that spoke all those languages, 391 00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:07,440 Speaker 1: you know, he said, oh, take this little small one. 392 00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:11,639 Speaker 1: I talked to him later, I said, remember a little 393 00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:15,600 Speaker 1: small one. I said it wasn't mine because I was 394 00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:18,119 Speaker 1: accused of that by Gail Levine and one of our 395 00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:22,760 Speaker 1: brilliant brain story. He's picked this one up, you know, 396 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:26,400 Speaker 1: he was gearing from when they were in Zarcapata. I said, 397 00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:30,280 Speaker 1: remember how he picked this one out. We gotta check 398 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:39,880 Speaker 1: a lot of it. Almost five years after starting the program, 399 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:42,600 Speaker 1: Father One started to think Mike may not be a 400 00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:46,240 Speaker 1: good fit for the monastery after all, he said. Around then, 401 00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:55,560 Speaker 1: the monastic Canada's personality started to change. I began seeing 402 00:28:55,680 --> 00:29:00,320 Speaker 1: him has not fit again. With the other students, they 403 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:02,960 Speaker 1: were you know, we had at nice school. The kids 404 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:05,959 Speaker 1: were nice. You were there. No one was trankling another 405 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:10,360 Speaker 1: student in the hallway, and you know, I'd go, I'm 406 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:13,800 Speaker 1: saying hello, the people saying ah, I get them. Ma. 407 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:19,520 Speaker 1: Carlo doesn't even say hello. Everyone in the hall is 408 00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:22,840 Speaker 1: being very polite. At out He's like, you know, because 409 00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:28,240 Speaker 1: is always treating me and I had no affair or anything. 410 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:32,040 Speaker 1: What if you could in any way you know Jimmy 411 00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:35,120 Speaker 1: around to have something to do with why he is 412 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:39,800 Speaker 1: not saying good afternoon, you know, as if Harley would 413 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:43,040 Speaker 1: take anything out and even in a worst day, did 414 00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:46,560 Speaker 1: you think about that in retrospect, like after the murder 415 00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:52,560 Speaker 1: or did you remember noticing that before I was complaining 416 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:57,200 Speaker 1: about him. I wanted to send him back. That's point 417 00:29:57,280 --> 00:30:00,320 Speaker 1: blank said. He was not what I star did this 418 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:03,560 Speaker 1: about at this point when he was actually like that, 419 00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:07,920 Speaker 1: like I'm the enemy. You know, we said that us. 420 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:10,720 Speaker 1: We brought him over and you know this was they 421 00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:15,400 Speaker 1: didn't fit in with the other students. Father went said 422 00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:18,360 Speaker 1: he talked to Father Damien about sending Mike home because 423 00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:22,360 Speaker 1: of his attitude, but it never happened. Before they could 424 00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:26,280 Speaker 1: send him back, Sister Michelle was dead and Mike confessed 425 00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:34,360 Speaker 1: to killing her. The day of the murder was difficult 426 00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:37,480 Speaker 1: for both of them. They were the only two from 427 00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:42,600 Speaker 1: Holy Cross to see what Mike had done to Sister Michelle. Petro, 428 00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:45,440 Speaker 1: who was twenty one at the time, was the one 429 00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:48,160 Speaker 1: who first found her body. When I opened the door, 430 00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:51,840 Speaker 1: I saw something was terribly wrong, you know, I said, 431 00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:54,160 Speaker 1: part of the body. I saw lots of blood. What 432 00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:57,360 Speaker 1: what I remember was that she was like lying behind 433 00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:00,320 Speaker 1: the better side. I only could see like, you know, 434 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:02,400 Speaker 1: like half of legs sticking out, and I saw a 435 00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:07,080 Speaker 1: big cut on the side. And so as soon as 436 00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 1: I get out of the house, I ran as fast 437 00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:12,800 Speaker 1: as I could to to to tell him and I said, 438 00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:15,520 Speaker 1: something is bad. I don't think system Michelle is alive. 439 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:19,840 Speaker 1: And he immediately called number one without thinking about it. 440 00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:23,920 Speaker 1: So and that's when the police came and I rescued 441 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:25,760 Speaker 1: and the end, and then I had to go back 442 00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:30,040 Speaker 1: over with them because I wanted me there. So we 443 00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:32,040 Speaker 1: went to the crime scene. You were you were at 444 00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:34,280 Speaker 1: the crime scene? Did you think it was part of 445 00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:37,479 Speaker 1: like a burglary or or something like, not really brigley, 446 00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:39,920 Speaker 1: because that was not much to steal, but who knows, 447 00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:42,479 Speaker 1: some kind of like a drug addict breaking in or 448 00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:45,880 Speaker 1: you know, something like that. I did think there's a 449 00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:51,120 Speaker 1: nursery in front of our property, and so I told 450 00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:53,280 Speaker 1: the place I said, that's the only thinker comes from 451 00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:56,680 Speaker 1: my mind otherwise, so you never imagined that first that 452 00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:00,520 Speaker 1: it was one of you, No way, you know, it 453 00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:06,040 Speaker 1: was literally the last thing I would think. You want 454 00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:08,840 Speaker 1: to know what I personally feel guilty about. I feel 455 00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:15,200 Speaker 1: guilty that I let Sister Rochelle down because you know, 456 00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:19,200 Speaker 1: I know a situation. You have fences everywhere, so the 457 00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:22,760 Speaker 1: police show up. What our report? There are some migrant 458 00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:26,520 Speaker 1: workers on the That's really what else could happen here? 459 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:34,280 Speaker 1: Father Went was often accused of seeming unemotional after the murder. 460 00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:38,160 Speaker 1: People we talked to thought his tone sounded unconcerned on 461 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:40,560 Speaker 1: the Nun one one call, or that he didn't seem 462 00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:44,680 Speaker 1: sad during Sister Michelle's memorial, but he says he was 463 00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:51,280 Speaker 1: dealing with things in his own way. I had a 464 00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:57,240 Speaker 1: lot of different emotions at different times. I can't say 465 00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:03,040 Speaker 1: I had the expected emotion at this I'm we of course, 466 00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:06,920 Speaker 1: are always told a part of our training keep the 467 00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:14,760 Speaker 1: stiff upper lip. And finally one morning I completely broke down. 468 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:22,320 Speaker 1: It was the lower school, and now is it by 469 00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:26,160 Speaker 1: a time we were at the liturgy, you know, for 470 00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:31,560 Speaker 1: Sister Michelle's repose, it for the school. I didn't break down, 471 00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:36,560 Speaker 1: and some people, let's see he's not moved. So but 472 00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:38,840 Speaker 1: first of all, I'm not there to keep the different show. 473 00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:41,680 Speaker 1: I have people that all are how moved to us. 474 00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:48,600 Speaker 1: Now it's different place. Is that something that sticks with 475 00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:54,240 Speaker 1: you forever. Yes, but it's you know, I feel like 476 00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:56,960 Speaker 1: it's sounds a little stranger that I'm gonna say, but 477 00:33:57,120 --> 00:33:59,920 Speaker 1: I hope you're taking the right way. I had a 478 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:07,040 Speaker 1: good relationship with sister Michelle, and you know, like to me, I, 479 00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:11,000 Speaker 1: I would talk to her about it, how awful it wasn't, 480 00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:14,000 Speaker 1: how sorry we were that this happened to her. So 481 00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:16,160 Speaker 1: you would pray to her and sort of speak through 482 00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:20,000 Speaker 1: prayer with her. Through prayer, I'm not you know. She 483 00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:27,239 Speaker 1: didn't answer back, But Patrick, did you need therapy? You 484 00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:30,440 Speaker 1: know that as soon as that happened, and there was 485 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:33,799 Speaker 1: a lot of questioning by police, by different departments. By 486 00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:36,560 Speaker 1: this is that everything kind of like there was so 487 00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:38,239 Speaker 1: much going on and there was no time to think 488 00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:41,880 Speaker 1: about what you saw or you needed therapy from the police. 489 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:48,000 Speaker 1: This idea that the police and other investigators were a 490 00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:50,640 Speaker 1: problem for Holy Cross was something that came up a 491 00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:54,319 Speaker 1: lot during this interview. You might have noticed Father went 492 00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:57,680 Speaker 1: already mentioned Assistant State Attorney gil Vine a few times, 493 00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:01,359 Speaker 1: and he talked more about it when we brought up 494 00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:05,520 Speaker 1: their legal strategy during the sex abuse investigation. The legal 495 00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:09,120 Speaker 1: strategy was with the sex abuse stuff was plead the 496 00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:11,239 Speaker 1: fifth plead. The fifth like, just don't talk and you're 497 00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:13,840 Speaker 1: gonna be fine, right because there's no evidence, there's no nothing. 498 00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:19,759 Speaker 1: So most of it was just procedural this. It's not 499 00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:23,520 Speaker 1: like I was feeling, Okay, don't wink thrice. So you 500 00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:27,120 Speaker 1: lost the war, you know? Heck, I don't know what 501 00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:30,760 Speaker 1: the war was. By the end of this. The point 502 00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:34,240 Speaker 1: is I felt the attorneys did a very good job. 503 00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:37,680 Speaker 1: After a few of the meetings that I went to 504 00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:43,120 Speaker 1: of the defense attorneys, what's gil Avin's Club, prosecutor prosecutors. 505 00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:46,759 Speaker 1: I was to those meetings, and when I heard what 506 00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:49,279 Speaker 1: they had to say about girl, I thought, Oh, it 507 00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:55,400 Speaker 1: wasn't too bad for me. She was a horrible person. Basically, 508 00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:58,600 Speaker 1: why do you say she was a horrible person? What 509 00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:01,359 Speaker 1: did what did she do? Name my experience, and I'm 510 00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:04,760 Speaker 1: not god. I'm not trying to say what I said. 511 00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:07,959 Speaker 1: You know, trust me, when you got to Heaven St. 512 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:11,120 Speaker 1: Peter will say Gallevine is a horrible person. I might 513 00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:15,319 Speaker 1: be totally wrong about her, but it's certainly my experience. 514 00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:22,120 Speaker 1: When we pushed them on this, it was clear that 515 00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:25,840 Speaker 1: both father Went and Petro had a grudge against gay Levine. 516 00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:28,640 Speaker 1: They thought she was taking the side of the defense 517 00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:34,040 Speaker 1: attorney Edith Georgie. In doing that, they felt she was 518 00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:37,200 Speaker 1: helping to perpetuate an image of the priests as child 519 00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:43,799 Speaker 1: predators without any evidence other than Mike's allegations, and that 520 00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:48,120 Speaker 1: put the monastic candidates and their families through even more trauma. 521 00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:52,040 Speaker 1: Even though they were posing parties in the court. It 522 00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:54,600 Speaker 1: is George and and living, but they kind of like 523 00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:58,160 Speaker 1: gang up on this idea of possible abuse and all 524 00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:02,000 Speaker 1: that that they walked to done that. They were like scrutinous. 525 00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:05,440 Speaker 1: They sent different kinds of police departments to talk to 526 00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:09,080 Speaker 1: us psychologists and wanted to find any kind of thing 527 00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:12,440 Speaker 1: they could find, any kind of to confirm this. You know, 528 00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:14,880 Speaker 1: she was here in Ukraine too. She talked to me 529 00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:17,840 Speaker 1: Hallo Sperence. She talked to all of the parents candidates, 530 00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:21,040 Speaker 1: trying to find if somebody said anything or did they 531 00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:24,319 Speaker 1: see anything, you know, and she would lie to their face. 532 00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:28,319 Speaker 1: She would say horrible things that well less and I 533 00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:30,000 Speaker 1: mean not to us, but to our parents because we're 534 00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:33,319 Speaker 1: in the States that we were we abused there and 535 00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:36,200 Speaker 1: stuff like that, that it was intentional. Your kids are 536 00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:39,600 Speaker 1: going to table stuff. They were brought up a prostitution, 537 00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:44,160 Speaker 1: and I remember I was told that it was your 538 00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:47,399 Speaker 1: sibling back's mother who told her that we don't believe 539 00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:50,120 Speaker 1: anything you're saying, and you yourself must not have kids, 540 00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:52,360 Speaker 1: because if you had, you would not be talking like 541 00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:56,840 Speaker 1: this to us. And that's when she basically didn't us anymore, 542 00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:02,120 Speaker 1: so that short her time. Let's send down. Basically, basically, 543 00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:11,960 Speaker 1: we asked him about the story that all the police 544 00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:14,400 Speaker 1: and lawyers told us about the day of Mike's confession. 545 00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:18,040 Speaker 1: We brought up the moment they say father went Petro 546 00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:21,359 Speaker 1: and a lawyer showed up at the homicide department and 547 00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:24,400 Speaker 1: started asking if Mike was saying anything bad about the school, 548 00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:29,040 Speaker 1: that's not true. Do you remember who you talked to 549 00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:34,719 Speaker 1: when you went, Yeah, I remember detective Detective Nanny. No. 550 00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:36,919 Speaker 1: I definitely can say that I was there with him, 551 00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:39,360 Speaker 1: and there would have been no reason for him to 552 00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:43,480 Speaker 1: ask that. We were concerned about Mihailo by himself at 553 00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:47,839 Speaker 1: that time, you know, because you know he he was 554 00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:50,200 Speaker 1: a responsible party for him. We had to find out 555 00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:52,480 Speaker 1: what's going on, you know, because obviously you know, he 556 00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:55,080 Speaker 1: could have been hopefully addressed if it wasn't him, for example, 557 00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:59,759 Speaker 1: who did that So that first phone call that you 558 00:38:59,840 --> 00:39:04,760 Speaker 1: got from from his first the only call he's allowed 559 00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:06,440 Speaker 1: to make. The call he makes, he makes to you. 560 00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:10,880 Speaker 1: What was that like for you to pick up that 561 00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:18,279 Speaker 1: phone and speak to him? Was he remorseful? Was he scared? What? 562 00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:25,560 Speaker 1: What was Is he a relative of yours? Okay? Let more, No, 563 00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:32,040 Speaker 1: he was not too remorseful. I mean, you know you're 564 00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:36,880 Speaker 1: talking about this horrible thing. There was no you know, 565 00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:40,120 Speaker 1: for sad there in a good or bad sense of 566 00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:44,160 Speaker 1: the world. There was like canok aim atal effect? You know? 567 00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:48,919 Speaker 1: Did you ask him why did you do this? Well? 568 00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:51,000 Speaker 1: First of all, he was nothing one that told me. 569 00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:53,759 Speaker 1: The police told me. I don't know what he was 570 00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:57,080 Speaker 1: gonna say. It wasn't opening with anything. So I said, 571 00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:00,960 Speaker 1: I heard from the police that you else, sister Michelle, 572 00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:07,879 Speaker 1: and trying to think what was the next Do you remember? Yeah? 573 00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:09,960 Speaker 1: He you told me because I wasn't there when you 574 00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:11,440 Speaker 1: spoke to him, but you told him that he was 575 00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:14,200 Speaker 1: very flat my friend, and you asked him why did 576 00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:16,359 Speaker 1: you do it? And he didn't want to call her, 577 00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:20,560 Speaker 1: He wanted to hurt her. Did he ask you for help? No, 578 00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:26,960 Speaker 1: you know, I said, I have heard that the public 579 00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:31,080 Speaker 1: defender office. You know, I can't give you a very 580 00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:36,719 Speaker 1: good assistance, but if not, let me know. Never heard 581 00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:45,760 Speaker 1: from her again. Mike's told us that he never reached 582 00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:48,480 Speaker 1: out to Holy Cross again because after he opened up 583 00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:51,520 Speaker 1: about the sexual abuse, he no longer wanted anything to 584 00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:55,040 Speaker 1: do with the priests. But we always wondered why Fathers 585 00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:58,560 Speaker 1: went or Damien never tried to talk to Mike again either. 586 00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:03,440 Speaker 1: Father one told us that after the sexual assault allegations 587 00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:06,560 Speaker 1: were made, talking to Mike no longer felt like it 588 00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:16,200 Speaker 1: was possible. What category was I in the enemy, whether 589 00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:20,120 Speaker 1: or not I was ever would be or whatever? How 590 00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:23,719 Speaker 1: things fell out in the universe at that point in time. 591 00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:27,520 Speaker 1: How couldn't contact anybody that was possibly on the other side? 592 00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:36,600 Speaker 1: Couldn't meaning weren't allowed? Um, yeah, right, basically, yes, your 593 00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:39,200 Speaker 1: attorneys give you, advise them you can do whatever you want. 594 00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:47,480 Speaker 1: They never say don't do you know what kept you 595 00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:54,160 Speaker 1: from I guess twenty years later reaching out to be 596 00:41:54,320 --> 00:42:01,640 Speaker 1: I loose parents. Well, I didn't speak Ukrainian and candidate 597 00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:07,200 Speaker 1: vis of these parents correspondent and I would be there 598 00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:09,680 Speaker 1: and they would to ask him translate and that sort 599 00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:12,840 Speaker 1: of thing. But that's you know. I never called any 600 00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:16,880 Speaker 1: of the parents by myself. But in this particular situation 601 00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:20,040 Speaker 1: where you know, these two parents who were in this 602 00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:22,480 Speaker 1: little tiny village, you know, and and their son is 603 00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:25,040 Speaker 1: in a prison and they don't know what I mean, 604 00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:26,839 Speaker 1: they know that the sun did something, and that he's 605 00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:29,120 Speaker 1: saying a bunch of stuff and any of that. Did 606 00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:31,400 Speaker 1: you ever feel like, Okay, maybe I need to sit 607 00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:33,319 Speaker 1: down and talk to these folks and and and just 608 00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:39,040 Speaker 1: kind of you know, I I have a very positive 609 00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:43,160 Speaker 1: feeling from them from when they when I first got 610 00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:46,640 Speaker 1: to know them, and stuff with and so on at 611 00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:52,720 Speaker 1: this point, would I have felt comfortable or even able 612 00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:57,560 Speaker 1: to do any of this. No, I'm not never in 613 00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:00,840 Speaker 1: contact with them alone. It's always you know, Michaelo is 614 00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:05,759 Speaker 1: there and that's how we got in contact. Why don't 615 00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:08,600 Speaker 1: you talk? You would do a lot of this sort 616 00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:12,279 Speaker 1: of thing. Well, at the time we communicated to let us, 617 00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:14,040 Speaker 1: you know, he would write them, let us they write him. 618 00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:16,480 Speaker 1: Let us before this is before the murder. This is 619 00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:20,520 Speaker 1: just a are you talking I'm talking about after PATROLA. 620 00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:22,800 Speaker 1: Did you ever talk to them? Did you ever say, 621 00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:25,800 Speaker 1: you know, what, did you how did this boy become 622 00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:29,040 Speaker 1: what he became? Or do you have any conversations about 623 00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:32,399 Speaker 1: any of it with his parents. Were just tiny little time. 624 00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:35,880 Speaker 1: You have to understand that it was a bumpshef for 625 00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:38,720 Speaker 1: of us and and this thing is not like, okay, 626 00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:42,480 Speaker 1: the murder happened. Then a week later, you know, things clear. 627 00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:44,799 Speaker 1: Then a month later we were like, we can do 628 00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:47,080 Speaker 1: whatever we want. This thing two years and there was 629 00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:49,439 Speaker 1: a lot of investigations. There's a lot of people, lots 630 00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:51,719 Speaker 1: of things going on that there was a lot of 631 00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:54,399 Speaker 1: going on. And besides, we couldn't leave at that time, 632 00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:59,160 Speaker 1: you know, because it was an ongoing an investigation. We 633 00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:01,960 Speaker 1: couldn't do we can't live the United States, have to 634 00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:07,799 Speaker 1: be here and stuff. So that was basically now and 635 00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:09,839 Speaker 1: I don't think they had a phone at home at 636 00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:13,760 Speaker 1: that time that you could call. Well, besides the actual 637 00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:18,080 Speaker 1: hit on us psychologically and emotionally that this took place, 638 00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:21,640 Speaker 1: that we lost two members at the same time and 639 00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:26,840 Speaker 1: one killed each other, you know, um, besides that effect 640 00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:29,360 Speaker 1: again personally, we had to deal with a lot of 641 00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:32,360 Speaker 1: other stuff going on. We had to think about ways 642 00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:34,160 Speaker 1: how to save the school because as you know, we 643 00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:39,160 Speaker 1: had a drop in student population and so we had 644 00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:41,480 Speaker 1: to that. That also took a lot of our attention 645 00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:44,279 Speaker 1: in the meantime this thinct two tears, that we had 646 00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:48,880 Speaker 1: to speak to different attorneys, to two different kinds of police, 647 00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:56,640 Speaker 1: even child police, and all that stuff, and UM kind 648 00:44:56,640 --> 00:45:00,960 Speaker 1: of lost my track. After talk into Father Went and 649 00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:04,320 Speaker 1: Petro for a few hours, we still hadn't asked anything 650 00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:08,319 Speaker 1: about the accusations of sexual abuse. To be honest, it 651 00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:10,680 Speaker 1: wasn't on the list of questions we sent over either. 652 00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:13,640 Speaker 1: We were afraid that if we put it on there, 653 00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:15,880 Speaker 1: Father Went would never have agreed to talk to us 654 00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:19,600 Speaker 1: in the first place. But it was getting late and 655 00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:23,480 Speaker 1: we could sense that we'd be rapping things soon. Then 656 00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:27,440 Speaker 1: Melanie got brave and started asking what we've been thinking 657 00:45:27,440 --> 00:45:31,160 Speaker 1: about all of these years. This is a hard question 658 00:45:31,239 --> 00:45:34,440 Speaker 1: for me to us and I'm but I'm gonna ask it. Um, 659 00:45:35,080 --> 00:45:42,000 Speaker 1: did did any of you ever feel that maybe he 660 00:45:42,200 --> 00:45:45,280 Speaker 1: was telling the truth with Father Damien, that maybe there's 661 00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:49,600 Speaker 1: a possibility, even the slightest possibility, that Father Damien was 662 00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:54,120 Speaker 1: abusing the Halo. I would like to answer that not 663 00:45:54,280 --> 00:46:00,319 Speaker 1: exactly as you asked. So when Michailo turned a teen, 664 00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:06,200 Speaker 1: you know, he had been to Ukraine as Father Damien's 665 00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:11,640 Speaker 1: translator and I said, you're eighteen. You can go by 666 00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:16,120 Speaker 1: yourselves or get the plane. And I said, now sit 667 00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:22,440 Speaker 1: down and tell me what is your your own view 668 00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:29,000 Speaker 1: of Father Damien? Was everything you know between you and 669 00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:35,080 Speaker 1: him the way you would want it to be. If not, what? Basically, 670 00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:39,439 Speaker 1: I'm giving them open ended questions. Feed me if there's 671 00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:43,560 Speaker 1: anything wrong. Nothing was going on. We were being investigated 672 00:46:43,560 --> 00:46:47,760 Speaker 1: by Gail Evin's cat. Nothing you know, this is tabulas 673 00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:49,960 Speaker 1: And that's what I asked him, and he said, no, 674 00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:54,120 Speaker 1: everything's fine. Why would you ask him that? Why not 675 00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:58,960 Speaker 1: if something was not right in your monastery? Would you 676 00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:02,640 Speaker 1: like to find out from a candidates mother. I was 677 00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:07,840 Speaker 1: not asking these questions because just think if anything with it. No, 678 00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:11,600 Speaker 1: there was more innocent than that. But it was a 679 00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:14,160 Speaker 1: type of thing I would always do. Did you have 680 00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:18,439 Speaker 1: any problems? I guess my question is had you heard 681 00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:22,920 Speaker 1: anything about Father Damien before that would lead you to 682 00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:27,799 Speaker 1: ask me, Halo, if anything inappropriate was happening? Okay, So 683 00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:30,360 Speaker 1: it was just like a preventative sort of like the 684 00:47:30,520 --> 00:47:34,200 Speaker 1: routine measure to ask that question. Questions like that question 685 00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:39,719 Speaker 1: like that, because it wasn't centered around sex anything between 686 00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:43,680 Speaker 1: you and God Bob, it could be that you know, 687 00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:46,600 Speaker 1: he leaves his door open a crack and you wanted 688 00:47:46,600 --> 00:47:50,880 Speaker 1: a foot. That was a totally open added question. It 689 00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:56,719 Speaker 1: had no sex as an outcome abc D sex. No, 690 00:47:57,360 --> 00:48:00,640 Speaker 1: it wasn't like that, but it was for anything he 691 00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:06,640 Speaker 1: wanted to. UM another question that I'm sorry, it's another 692 00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:09,359 Speaker 1: uncomfortable one, UM that I need to ask it because 693 00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:14,680 Speaker 1: we're here and UM. A lot of people would say 694 00:48:14,719 --> 00:48:19,960 Speaker 1: that there was something suspicious going on between the two 695 00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:22,360 Speaker 1: of you, because you you said so yourself in the 696 00:48:22,400 --> 00:48:26,640 Speaker 1: interrogation tapes that when you would travel together, that you 697 00:48:26,680 --> 00:48:33,000 Speaker 1: would share a bed. What a bed? Who is doing 698 00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:38,880 Speaker 1: this reporting? We reminded them that in the perpetuated testimony 699 00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:42,760 Speaker 1: from the monastic candidates, some of the boys, including Petro, 700 00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:48,960 Speaker 1: said that these two shared rooms and sometimes beds in hotels. Uh, 701 00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:51,040 Speaker 1: you know, I don't remember what I said, but I 702 00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:54,440 Speaker 1: mean if we went on vacation, for example, you know, 703 00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:56,920 Speaker 1: we used to rent a minivan and you would like 704 00:48:57,000 --> 00:48:59,879 Speaker 1: be in the hotel room and we would like west 705 00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:02,600 Speaker 1: you have something that we would like. You know, you 706 00:49:02,640 --> 00:49:05,319 Speaker 1: would like there's usually two beds in the hotel room 707 00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:07,719 Speaker 1: and you would just be would like hang that you 708 00:49:07,719 --> 00:49:09,920 Speaker 1: know that as the guys said, and just you know, 709 00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:13,440 Speaker 1: sit next to each other or what you're watching, but 710 00:49:13,600 --> 00:49:18,040 Speaker 1: not not nothing sexy or anything like a bed or 711 00:49:18,120 --> 00:49:20,680 Speaker 1: like just But I can't remember exactly what they said. 712 00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:22,720 Speaker 1: But do you you mind if I enter checked the question? 713 00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:28,960 Speaker 1: Isn't the bottom of that question? However you want to 714 00:49:29,160 --> 00:49:38,120 Speaker 1: form a phrase or whatever? Were you ever a subject 715 00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:42,640 Speaker 1: of how to file activity? You know it was do? 716 00:49:42,680 --> 00:49:45,680 Speaker 1: Isn't that what you want to know? How many otherwise 717 00:49:45,680 --> 00:49:48,319 Speaker 1: you could answer on But that's the question you want 718 00:49:48,320 --> 00:49:54,280 Speaker 1: to answer. Were you abused? That's the question. Please write 719 00:49:54,280 --> 00:50:16,040 Speaker 1: it down somewhere m m M. Before we wrapped things up, 720 00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:19,640 Speaker 1: we had one last thing we wanted to ask them. 721 00:50:19,680 --> 00:50:22,000 Speaker 1: We knew that the murder and everything that happened after 722 00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:25,480 Speaker 1: caused the downfall of Holy Cross and took away the 723 00:50:25,520 --> 00:50:30,279 Speaker 1: world they built in Miami. Even though they started over 724 00:50:30,280 --> 00:50:33,960 Speaker 1: in North Carolina and rebuild things here in Ukraine, it 725 00:50:34,080 --> 00:50:36,560 Speaker 1: still felt like a huge loss, not just for them, 726 00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:40,360 Speaker 1: but for everyone who cared about the school. We wanted 727 00:50:40,400 --> 00:50:42,560 Speaker 1: to know if they could ever forgive Mike for killing 728 00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:46,839 Speaker 1: Sister Michelle and setting off everything that brought Holy Cross down. 729 00:50:48,960 --> 00:50:53,200 Speaker 1: Jesus Christ said, unless you forgive your brother their sins. 730 00:50:53,719 --> 00:50:56,719 Speaker 1: Your sins will not be forgiven you as are not 731 00:50:56,920 --> 00:51:00,600 Speaker 1: my words, but I lived by them, you know what. 732 00:51:00,760 --> 00:51:04,440 Speaker 1: I feel comfortable. That wasn't a question. If you know, 733 00:51:04,880 --> 00:51:08,319 Speaker 1: I'm waiting for St. Peter and Missa and I were 734 00:51:08,360 --> 00:51:11,040 Speaker 1: there and St. Peter's you asked the question. That's time, 735 00:51:12,160 --> 00:51:16,959 Speaker 1: you know, there's nothing to ask. Do I forgive him? Yes? 736 00:51:17,280 --> 00:51:19,600 Speaker 1: Am I happy about being put in my place? No? 737 00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:25,120 Speaker 1: But I definitely do for my heart forgiven because I 738 00:51:25,160 --> 00:51:30,040 Speaker 1: know otherwise I'm not going to be forgiven either. Those 739 00:51:30,080 --> 00:51:34,439 Speaker 1: are Jesus words, and I take them seriously as much 740 00:51:34,480 --> 00:51:38,719 Speaker 1: today as when I started. Thank you. I understand you, 741 00:51:39,320 --> 00:51:41,239 Speaker 1: and I also a little bit a little by the 742 00:51:41,280 --> 00:51:45,600 Speaker 1: same principles, you know. But for me, well, I hope 743 00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:48,839 Speaker 1: that God forgives you, you know, that's my thing. But personally, 744 00:51:49,360 --> 00:51:52,200 Speaker 1: I'm still very angry with him because he he really 745 00:51:52,200 --> 00:51:56,439 Speaker 1: did some terrible things. He undermined for the gregrest great work. 746 00:51:57,080 --> 00:52:00,399 Speaker 1: He douched a lot of lives in the negat their way. 747 00:52:00,680 --> 00:52:03,200 Speaker 1: You know, all the students why we're here talking about 748 00:52:03,200 --> 00:52:05,239 Speaker 1: this and other students who heard about their parents who 749 00:52:05,320 --> 00:52:08,839 Speaker 1: heard because that's to go through a lot of hardships, 750 00:52:09,920 --> 00:52:13,880 Speaker 1: and I think changed the direction of overall in personal lives, 751 00:52:13,920 --> 00:52:16,560 Speaker 1: you know, by this terrible act. So I don't think. 752 00:52:16,600 --> 00:52:21,120 Speaker 1: I don't want to see him and to forgive. It's 753 00:52:21,160 --> 00:52:22,880 Speaker 1: not my thing. I just don't want to deal with 754 00:52:23,000 --> 00:52:25,279 Speaker 1: his thing. I just hope God forgives him, and that's it. 755 00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:35,760 Speaker 1: How do you feel about him getting out and coming 756 00:52:35,800 --> 00:52:40,720 Speaker 1: back to this area? Um, you better not come around 757 00:52:40,760 --> 00:52:45,840 Speaker 1: my way. That's it, I'll say, father, How do you 758 00:52:45,840 --> 00:52:52,200 Speaker 1: feel about it? Um? Hm? I mean you will die sometime. 759 00:52:52,239 --> 00:52:58,280 Speaker 1: I'm aware about if it's, you know, his second go around. 760 00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:03,920 Speaker 1: M past Vans saying it doesn't keep me up at night, 761 00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:17,880 Speaker 1: maybe it should. It was late when we finally packed 762 00:53:17,960 --> 00:53:21,000 Speaker 1: up to leave the monastery. The light from the village 763 00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:24,000 Speaker 1: in the valley below made the mountains glow against a cold, 764 00:53:24,120 --> 00:53:28,279 Speaker 1: black sky. We loaded the car and started on that 765 00:53:28,360 --> 00:53:31,880 Speaker 1: four and a half hour drive back to Leviv, a 766 00:53:32,040 --> 00:53:35,600 Speaker 1: drive that's stretched to five and then six hours and 767 00:53:35,640 --> 00:53:39,680 Speaker 1: then more as we crept down slush covered mountain highways 768 00:53:39,760 --> 00:53:43,920 Speaker 1: in a near white out, though we hardly noticed the 769 00:53:44,000 --> 00:53:47,720 Speaker 1: danger of it all because we had plenty to talk about. 770 00:53:48,520 --> 00:53:52,719 Speaker 1: Everything that Mike has told us has checked out I 771 00:53:52,760 --> 00:53:55,799 Speaker 1: don't think he's lied to us about anything. I don't 772 00:53:55,840 --> 00:54:02,080 Speaker 1: think we're ever going to know. Are those like military drugs. 773 00:54:04,040 --> 00:54:07,600 Speaker 1: Before we came to Ukraine, the Russian military was already 774 00:54:07,600 --> 00:54:10,960 Speaker 1: starting to surround the border. People in the western part 775 00:54:11,000 --> 00:54:14,239 Speaker 1: of the country seemed less bothered by the news, like 776 00:54:14,320 --> 00:54:16,960 Speaker 1: it was just a problem for the eastern half of Ukraine. 777 00:54:17,440 --> 00:54:20,360 Speaker 1: We talked about the danger of an invasion before we arrived, 778 00:54:20,840 --> 00:54:23,239 Speaker 1: and even had our own plan to walk across the 779 00:54:23,280 --> 00:54:26,240 Speaker 1: border into Slovakia if it happened and we were trapped 780 00:54:26,239 --> 00:54:30,000 Speaker 1: in a war zone. Now it's crazy to think that 781 00:54:30,080 --> 00:54:33,680 Speaker 1: not long after we left, those soldiers have attacked Ukraine 782 00:54:34,040 --> 00:54:36,239 Speaker 1: and the air strikes hit not far from where we 783 00:54:36,280 --> 00:54:39,920 Speaker 1: stayed in Leviv. Since it all started, we've been keeping 784 00:54:39,920 --> 00:54:43,400 Speaker 1: in touch with everyone we met, and we're hoping to 785 00:54:43,400 --> 00:54:46,560 Speaker 1: share some updates with them later in the series, So 786 00:54:46,719 --> 00:54:49,279 Speaker 1: keep listening for those and we'll be back next week 787 00:54:49,480 --> 00:55:12,080 Speaker 1: with another episode of Sacred Scandal. Sacred Scandal is a 788 00:55:12,080 --> 00:55:15,600 Speaker 1: production of Exile Content Studio and partnership with I Heart 789 00:55:15,680 --> 00:55:20,279 Speaker 1: Radio's Michael Duta podcast network. Sacred Scandal was created and 790 00:55:20,320 --> 00:55:24,720 Speaker 1: produced by Melanie Bartley and me Paula Barrows. Our senior 791 00:55:24,760 --> 00:55:29,480 Speaker 1: producer is Dennis Funk of Written in Air. The executive 792 00:55:29,520 --> 00:55:34,440 Speaker 1: producers are Rose Red and Nando Villa. Production mixing and 793 00:55:34,520 --> 00:55:39,000 Speaker 1: sound design by Helena de Groot. Our production assistant is 794 00:55:39,040 --> 00:55:43,280 Speaker 1: Imani Leonard. The show is fact checked by Kimberly Winston. 795 00:55:44,200 --> 00:55:48,160 Speaker 1: Original music and final audio mixing comes from Patrick Hart 796 00:55:49,000 --> 00:55:52,920 Speaker 1: and special thanks on this episode to Julia Terasuk and 797 00:55:53,040 --> 00:55:58,160 Speaker 1: Travis Roig. If you'd like to reach out, email us 798 00:55:58,200 --> 00:56:02,719 Speaker 1: at hello at Sacred Scan podcast dot com and you 799 00:56:02,760 --> 00:56:17,880 Speaker 1: can follow us on Instagram at Sacred Scandal m