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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Thoughts Podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm Tracy Allaway and I'm Joe Wasn't you know, Joe.

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Speaker 1: It's obviously the start of a new year, and I'm

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Speaker 1: just thinking back to and there were so many things

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Speaker 1: that happened. It's kind of crazy when you think back.

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Speaker 1: I mean, just think back this time last year. Game

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Speaker 1: Stop hadn't even really begun to take off, and then

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Speaker 1: it suddenly became such a big thing. But it feels

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Speaker 1: like that happened, I mean absolutely ages ago. Yeah, it

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Speaker 1: really does. I feel like there were some really big

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Speaker 1: themes obviously we don't need to go over them that happened,

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Speaker 1: but there were also just a bunch of smaller, remarkable stories. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and you mentioned remarkable stories. So one of the very

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Speaker 1: big thing things that happened last year was the fall

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Speaker 1: of Afghanistan, and we had those dramatic scenes out of

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Speaker 1: Cappel as people scrambled at the airport to try to

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Speaker 1: get out of the country. And it's one of those things,

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Speaker 1: you know, at the time, people were talking about how

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Speaker 1: those pictures were going to go down in history. It

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Speaker 1: was all over the news. The news cycle focused on

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Speaker 1: it a lot and we did an odd Lots episode

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Speaker 1: on it at the time, but it's sort of fallen

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Speaker 1: off the front pages since then, and in the meantime,

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Speaker 1: Afghanistan has really been struggling under Taliban rule. You see

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Speaker 1: these news reports now again they're not on the front page,

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Speaker 1: but somewhere in the back of the newspaper talking about

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Speaker 1: mass starvation, inflation, absolute economic collapse. And I think it's

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Speaker 1: important that we do a follow up on what is

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Speaker 1: actually going on in the Afghanistan economy right now. Right, So,

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Speaker 1: Afghanistan was in the news for about two weeks near

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Speaker 1: the end of I think it was around the end

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Speaker 1: of summer. And obviously one aspect of it was just

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Speaker 1: the withdrawal after you know, basically two decades of the U.

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Speaker 1: S Forces being there. But then the other aspect was

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Speaker 1: simply the dramatic pictures at the airport and around the

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Speaker 1: airport and people there was an evacuation, and then of

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Speaker 1: course the cameras left, and you don't see much Afghanistan

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Speaker 1: in the news. But to your point, everyone anticipated that

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Speaker 1: there would be extreme economic fragility and likely inflation due

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Speaker 1: to the balance of payments issues and the loss of

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Speaker 1: aid that would come along with a rule by the Taliban,

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Speaker 1: and now we seemed to be seeing exactly that that

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Speaker 1: an economy that was already in bad shape is an

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Speaker 1: extremely bad shape right now, Yeah, exactly right. And there's

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Speaker 1: clearly an informational challenge here, right, which is that there

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Speaker 1: aren't a lot of journalists operating in Afghanistan at the

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Speaker 1: moment for obvious reasons. There isn't a lot of clear

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Speaker 1: financial data necessarily coming out of the country, and so

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Speaker 1: that can be difficult um or make it difficult to

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Speaker 1: actually report on the situation there. We are going to

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Speaker 1: try our best. In this episode, we are going to

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Speaker 1: be speaking once more with Ashmal Ahmadi. He's the former

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Speaker 1: governor of Afghanistan Central Bank, now a senior fellow at

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Speaker 1: Harvard University. So Ashmal, thank you so much for coming

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Speaker 1: back on the show. Thank you very much for had

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Speaker 1: It's a pleasure to be here. So maybe just to begin,

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Speaker 1: could you give us your impression of the situation on

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Speaker 1: the ground in Afghanistan since we last spoke to you

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Speaker 1: back in August. You know, I mentioned some of the

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Speaker 1: things that we've seen, reports of starvation, double digit inflation,

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Speaker 1: currency volatility. I think there was one day in December

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Speaker 1: where apparently the Afghani fell something like in one day,

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Speaker 1: and that's obviously been challenging for people on the ground.

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Speaker 1: But what are you hearing from your contacts in the country.

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Speaker 1: I think it's it's in line with what you're hearing

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Speaker 1: as well. The economic situation continue to deteriorate. The situation

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Speaker 1: is getting worse. So, you know, back in August when

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Speaker 1: when we first spoke, I've mentioned a few things. One

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Speaker 1: that you likely see a large GDP contraction, which is

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Speaker 1: what we're seeing now. You're likely to see an effects

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Speaker 1: depreciation which will pass on through to inflation, which we're

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Speaker 1: also seeing. And we're likely to see an increase in

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Speaker 1: refugee flows. UM. So I think all of that is

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Speaker 1: in line. And so the people I speak with, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, are are seeing the same things. Unfortunately. So

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Speaker 1: when we last talked, we talked about I mean, you

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Speaker 1: you basically anticipated this, you know, we talked about the

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Speaker 1: difficulty that Afghanistan would have important dollars. We talked about

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Speaker 1: the current account and what would happen with the loss

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Speaker 1: of aid, but you know, just sort of sort of

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Speaker 1: talked about what's changed from a sort of like external

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Speaker 1: perspective where we're where was the Afghanistan getting its money

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Speaker 1: prior to the change in rule, how is it financing itself?

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Speaker 1: And what do sort of domestic operations look like now.

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Speaker 1: So originally, let's say the current account deficit or the

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Speaker 1: trade deficit, I'm sorry, it was approximately seven billion dollars

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Speaker 1: which was being financed by international aid flows. And so

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Speaker 1: obviously the eight flows have have stopped, the assets have

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Speaker 1: been frozen, and so you know, what you're seeing is

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Speaker 1: a contraction of the imports that are flowing into the

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Speaker 1: country because they can no longer be paid for. No

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Speaker 1: official numbers have come out, but I would expect that

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Speaker 1: current account more trade deficit to significantly contract over the

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Speaker 1: course of two you know, to be honest, Actually the

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Speaker 1: currency depreciation hasn't been as significant as I would expect,

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Speaker 1: so it's it's appreciated. Um, it's gone to about I

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Speaker 1: think the latest figures roughly and ten. It went higher

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Speaker 1: than that came back, um, But that's depreciation. Given the

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Speaker 1: economic shock and stoppage of aid flo as, I was

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Speaker 1: expecting even a larger um depreciation. But I think what

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Speaker 1: you have is the transmission mechanism being instead of the

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Speaker 1: currency being g d P, so you've had a larger

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Speaker 1: GDP contraction than I would have expected. So, something that

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Speaker 1: we talked about a lot back in August, UM, and

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Speaker 1: you just mentioned it then, was the fate of this

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Speaker 1: nine billion in dollar reserves that Afghanistan actually owned but

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Speaker 1: was held by the US. So my understanding is the

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Speaker 1: US still doesn't want to hand it over because they

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Speaker 1: don't want to give money directly to the Taliban. But

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Speaker 1: can you maybe walk us through the situation around those

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Speaker 1: deposits right now and what the likelihood is that Afghan

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Speaker 1: Afghanistan actually gets them at some point. Yeah, So the

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Speaker 1: currency reserves are still frozen, UM, and the situation has

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Speaker 1: become even more complicated since the last time we spoke.

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Speaker 1: So the New York Times has reported on this a

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Speaker 1: few times. On September, there was a rid of execution

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Speaker 1: that was provided to to the legal department of the

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Speaker 1: Court system saying essentially that the plaintiffs of the September

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Speaker 1: eleventh attacks would like to have access or gain access

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Speaker 1: to the reserves. If you recall, you know, perhaps twenty

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Speaker 1: years ago, UM, there was a court case against al

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Speaker 1: Qaeda and Taliban, and a court found that defendants in

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Speaker 1: this case, Al Qaida and Taliban liable by default more

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Speaker 1: than paid damages of seven billion. Now that core case was,

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Speaker 1: you know, on paper, there's no way to actually collect

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Speaker 1: on that. So what happened is these victims, approximately a

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Speaker 1: hundred fifty of them, gathered together and on September provided

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Speaker 1: this brid of execution. What what happens now is is

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Speaker 1: a little bit unclear. My understanding is the court system

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Speaker 1: seeks to have the opinion of the U. S Government

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Speaker 1: in such cases, and originally the US government and the

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Speaker 1: Biden administration were to provide their opinion back in December,

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Speaker 1: but now that's been delayed until the end of August.

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Speaker 1: So all this to say is that you have these reserves.

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Speaker 1: Of course, the Taliban would like access to them. At

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Speaker 1: the same time, it's being held up through the U S.

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Speaker 1: Court system, where the defendants or the victims of surrender

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Speaker 1: eleventh would like access to them. And it's my understanding

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Speaker 1: that as sometime this year, in perhaps January February, there

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Speaker 1: will be a decision made as to the status of

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Speaker 1: those within that. You know, The Times pointed out that

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Speaker 1: perhaps a portion of it could be used to pay

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Speaker 1: the victims of September eleven, and a portion could be

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Speaker 1: read up to provide humanitarian assistance for the people of Afghanistan.

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Speaker 1: So that's the current situation as I understand. So just

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Speaker 1: to be clear, who would make that choice, it would

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Speaker 1: have to be a court ruling, and would that be

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Speaker 1: a final ruling or if there or a court ruling,

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Speaker 1: would that just go to potentially another appeal. It's a

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Speaker 1: good question. I guess I'm not clear if it would

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Speaker 1: be a final ruling, but it's my understanding that the

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Speaker 1: court system would have to um decide on this case,

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Speaker 1: and there might be negotiations between the Justice Department and

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Speaker 1: the plaintiffts to see what the final outcome would be.

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Speaker 1: But I'm unsure if whether it be able to go

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Speaker 1: to um An Appeals Corton, But just thinking out loud,

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Speaker 1: probably wouldn't because in this case, the Taliban or al

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Speaker 1: Qaeda is not going to represent themselves in court, so

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Speaker 1: I don't know who would actually appeal to that judgment.

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Speaker 1: The other thing that's happened since we last spoke is

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Speaker 1: I guess you've got a replacement at the Central Bank.

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Speaker 1: Um Mohammed address is the new Afghanistan Central Bank Governor

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Speaker 1: as far as I know, there aren't a lot of

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Speaker 1: details available about his previous experience in economics or monetary policy.

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Speaker 1: But what do you know about him, and what's your

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Speaker 1: impression of how he's been running the central Bank or

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Speaker 1: how the central Bank has been running in general so far?

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Speaker 1: So he is um the new central Bank governor. He

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Speaker 1: was previously on the Taliban Economic Commission, and my understanding

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Speaker 1: is that he doesn't have a strong background in economics

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Speaker 1: or finance issues, and as such he's dependent on senior

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Speaker 1: staff that remained there to run the operations day to

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Speaker 1: day and run the policies. I think he's kept some

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Speaker 1: members of the staff that were there when when I

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Speaker 1: was governor, and some others have been fired or relieved

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Speaker 1: from from working at the Central Bank. The policies that

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Speaker 1: he's implementing are roughly in line with what I would

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Speaker 1: have expected. So I mentioned in our previous call that

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Speaker 1: one of my last actions was to limit the withdrawals

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Speaker 1: that people could take out given the shortage of dollars,

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Speaker 1: and so I think that's continued, and so they've placed

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Speaker 1: a limit which has slowly increased over time. So I

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Speaker 1: think people can UM. I think it was two hundred originally,

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Speaker 1: and I think it might have increased to three hundred

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Speaker 1: or four hundred over time, so I think that that's

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Speaker 1: the right approach. I've also read that the Taliban are

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Speaker 1: collecting approximately three million per day in revenues, so roughly

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Speaker 1: a billion dollars per year in revenue, so that's given

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Speaker 1: them some flexibility, I think, to provide currency to the

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Speaker 1: business community and the financial sector, um. So overall, you know,

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Speaker 1: I think, again it's a tough situation. He probably doesn't

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Speaker 1: have the background or experience, but again, anyone even with

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Speaker 1: experience in this situation would find it tough to run

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Speaker 1: central bank understanctions. So I remember, one of the things

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Speaker 1: that really struck me about your description of your time

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Speaker 1: on the job was obviously sort of like monetary policy

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Speaker 1: as it's understood, with part of it, but also real

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Speaker 1: nuts and bolts stuff like how do you get cash

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Speaker 1: out to provinces that are further away from the capital,

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Speaker 1: how do you get cash to places where it's safe

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Speaker 1: and unlikely to be stolen or unlikely to be under

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Speaker 1: the control of the Taliban obviously the whole countries under

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Speaker 1: the control of the Taliban to some extent. What's your

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Speaker 1: impression of that aspect of how the central bank is

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Speaker 1: working in terms of like just the just the mechanics

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Speaker 1: of cash distribution. It's a good question. I don't have

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Speaker 1: that much insight or into how they've changed their operations.

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Speaker 1: You know, I would expect it to be along the

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Speaker 1: same lines of what we manage, just with much fewer dollars.

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Speaker 1: So we had, um, you know, anx auction system where

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Speaker 1: banks and currency traders came in and bid electronically for

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Speaker 1: dollars to be auctioned off. And you know, on average,

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Speaker 1: you know, we have a certain amount that we would

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Speaker 1: auction off three times a week. So I would imagine

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Speaker 1: they have the same system going, but at a much

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Speaker 1: lower dollar auction rate. The one thing that has changed

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Speaker 1: is I believe the u N now is providing some

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Speaker 1: dollars to the central Bank. I believe, not for them

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Speaker 1: to auction themselves, but they are now providing it to

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Speaker 1: a private bank, a i B bank, which is larger

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Speaker 1: bank in Afghanistan, so that they could provide dollars to

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Speaker 1: the market. And this this, you know, brings in a

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Speaker 1: larger question of how to provide dollars in this economy

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Speaker 1: because the central bank is as such, a sanctioned entities

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Speaker 1: of dollars can't be bit brought in and provided to them.

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Speaker 1: But some people are proposing that instead of providing to

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Speaker 1: the central bank, it's provided to a private bank who

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Speaker 1: then conducts the functions of the central bank. Yeah, this

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Speaker 1: is something that I wanted to ask you about. So there,

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Speaker 1: I mean, we can get into the sanctions issue um

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Speaker 1: in a little bit. But one of the ideas floating

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Speaker 1: around is that you could maybe give money directly two

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Speaker 1: people or to certain groups and bypass the Taliban completely.

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Speaker 1: But I imagine in order to do that you need

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Speaker 1: to have a functioning banking system. And as we discussed

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Speaker 1: the last time you were on, so much of the

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Speaker 1: Afghanistan financial sector is informal. There are these informal money

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Speaker 1: lenders called I want to say, Sarafa's is that right?

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Speaker 1: And so I guess my question is like, what is

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Speaker 1: the current stay of Afghanistan's banking system and would it

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Speaker 1: be able to handle those kind of direct payments or

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Speaker 1: would you inevitably expect to see more and more financial

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Speaker 1: activity taken up by informal money lenders or the black market. Again,

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Speaker 1: you know, the informal Whoala dealers you know already provide

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Speaker 1: financial services to the majority of Afghans. There's only banked market.

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Speaker 1: But but again the banking sector, you know, if it's

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Speaker 1: even only the banking sector provides the financial services for

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Speaker 1: the who walas or provides dollars for the who aalas

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Speaker 1: who then provided to the rest of the population. So

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Speaker 1: it is difficult to move forward without a functional financial sector.

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Speaker 1: And so the broad question I think that um some

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Speaker 1: people in in the international community or thinking about, is,

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Speaker 1: you know, how do we either deal with the central

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Speaker 1: bank as a sacient entity or be how do we

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Speaker 1: create a financial sector without the central bank? And so

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Speaker 1: under the second option, what some people have proposed is

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Speaker 1: simply to say, look, the central bank is sanctioned, we

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Speaker 1: can't provide dollars through it, So why don't we have

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Speaker 1: a private bank perform the functions of the central bank.

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Speaker 1: And so I think that's something people are taking a

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Speaker 1: look at and on a trial basis. It's my understanding

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Speaker 1: that the UNDP, for example, has provided some money for

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Speaker 1: a I B to distribute it um to the business community,

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Speaker 1: so that could be potentially one option moving forward. One

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Speaker 1: question I have about the tail band's cash management needs

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Speaker 1: is who is supporting it right now? And there's the

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Speaker 1: US and the sanctions, which we'll talk about shortly, But

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Speaker 1: is it getting cash and support and do you have

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Speaker 1: any sense of what scale from any allies right now?

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Speaker 1: They are not to my knowledge, getting any dollars from

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Speaker 1: directly from any donors or many international organizations. There only

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Speaker 1: sources funding right now is um for example, through taxes

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Speaker 1: and customs. So you know, as I mentioned before, approximately

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Speaker 1: three million a day, so approximately a billion a year.

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Speaker 1: How long can this situation go on for? Like? What

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Speaker 1: is the ultimate end game here? I think broadly speaking,

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Speaker 1: you know, one of the goals we had in the

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Speaker 1: government was to build state institutions that could take on

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Speaker 1: more and more responsibility from the international community. So for example,

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Speaker 1: you know, there were some services that the u N

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Speaker 1: agencies or NGOs were providing that over time we wanted

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Speaker 1: the government to take on. And I think in some

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Speaker 1: sense you're seeing a reversal of that. What's happening now

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Speaker 1: is there's fewer and fewer functions that will be taken

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Speaker 1: up by the government and more and more responsibilities will

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Speaker 1: fall on the u N and NGOs to provide. So

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Speaker 1: you know, some examples of that is, you know this

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Speaker 1: financial services or money transfer system. Instead of going to

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Speaker 1: the central bank, may I go, may go to a

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Speaker 1: private bank to conduct central bank activities. Another example is

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Speaker 1: education and health services will likely be provided through NGOs

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Speaker 1: or through the u N. Some of those functions people

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Speaker 1: argue should be retained by the state. So, for example,

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Speaker 1: the education sector, instead of the u N hiring a

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Speaker 1: hundred thousand teachers, we have already in the civil service

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Speaker 1: a lot of teachers. Why don't we go ahead and

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Speaker 1: just pay them? And under the new carve outs of

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Speaker 1: the sanctions regimes, the new exemptions u S Treasury has provided.

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Speaker 1: My understanding is that the u N is able to

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Speaker 1: pay for teacher salaries. So in some it's you know,

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Speaker 1: the flow will be now a donor, whether it's the

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Speaker 1: u S or European Union or another country, will provide

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Speaker 1: aid to the u N and the u N can

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Speaker 1: then pay for teachers directly without paying them through the

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Speaker 1: Ministry of Education, which might be a sancition entity. Or

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Speaker 1: the donor will give money to an NGO who provide

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Speaker 1: health services and therefore won't touch the Taliban government. Um.

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Speaker 1: So you have a number of these workarounds, which in

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Speaker 1: some ways is hollowing out of the central government, but

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Speaker 1: it's it's a way to deal with the situation as

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Speaker 1: it stands. What are the dollar amounts we're talking about

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Speaker 1: with these alternative arrangement relative to the to the gross

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Speaker 1: level of a that was going in previously, uh previously

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Speaker 1: through the government. So previously we had what was around

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Speaker 1: two and a half billion going to the central government

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Speaker 1: and another three billion for the military. So let's call

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Speaker 1: it roughly five billion of international aid and two and

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Speaker 1: a half billion from domestic revenues, so seven and a

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Speaker 1: half total. That's a large figure. You have to take

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Speaker 1: into account that now a significant portion of that is

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Speaker 1: no longer required. A significant portion of our budget was

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Speaker 1: for military salaries and police salaries, and given that now

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Speaker 1: the conflict, with the level of conflict has significantly reduced,

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Speaker 1: those amounts should be much less and likely you can

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Speaker 1: pay or they'll be forced to pay the teacher, the

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Speaker 1: police and military, the Taliban military less. So that's one

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Speaker 1: way I think you'll see a contraction of what's required.

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Speaker 1: The second is the amount that the u N has

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Speaker 1: thus far stated they want to collect for if I

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Speaker 1: are remembers they said they want to raise approximately four

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Speaker 1: billion for humanitarian purposes and another perhaps four billion four

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Speaker 1: other programs, and and I think that's probably over optimistic.

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Speaker 1: Probably even the original four billion maybe too optimistics, But

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Speaker 1: that that gives you an indication roughly, right, So seven

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Speaker 1: a half billion total government budget, A lot of that

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Speaker 1: can be it can be much less, and so therefore

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Speaker 1: you have, you know, perhaps if the un a successful

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Speaker 1: four billion being raised and provided for humanitarian purposes as

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Speaker 1: well as teacher and teacher salaries and healthcarec delivery. So

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Speaker 1: I get that maybe you could work all of that

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Speaker 1: out from a budget perspective. But I guess my question is,

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Speaker 1: is that a valid way of state building for the Taliban?

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Speaker 1: This idea that you know, they only take on very

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Speaker 1: limited government functions and basically outsourced things like healthcare and

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Speaker 1: education to NGOs or non government entities who have the

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Speaker 1: money and are able to do this. I mean, it's

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Speaker 1: probably not the best possible outcome, but I think it's

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Speaker 1: you know, this is the best possible outcome given the situation. Right, So,

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Speaker 1: thus far no country in the world has recognized the Taliban,

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Speaker 1: and so therefore no money is going to float to them.

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Speaker 1: I think the Biden administration has made it relatively clear

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Speaker 1: that they won't be any recognition anytime soon. But on

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Speaker 1: the other hand, you have the humanitarian needs of the population,

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Speaker 1: so you know, it's it's not the best case where

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Speaker 1: you're building up the state capability, but it's a mechanism

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Speaker 1: by which humanitarian assistance can be provided without the money

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Speaker 1: reaching Taliban hands. I guess what I was trying to

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Speaker 1: get it was would the Taliban be satisfied with this

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Speaker 1: arrangement or at some point would it be seen as

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Speaker 1: as undermining their authority in the country or do they

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Speaker 1: not really care about that? No, No, of course they

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Speaker 1: care very much about it. On November seventeen, the acting

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Speaker 1: Taliban Foreign Affairs Minister released the public letter to the

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Speaker 1: United States Congress, you know, stating that the funds must

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Speaker 1: be released. There have been many comments and some demonstrations,

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Speaker 1: I think just a few days ago in Cobble, demanding

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Speaker 1: the release of the funds and demanding additional aid and

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Speaker 1: for the aid to be directed through the government. UM

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Speaker 1: but I think at this stage the international community just

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Speaker 1: is not listening. And to that point, after that Taliban

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Speaker 1: statement was released on November the U s Special Representative

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Speaker 1: for Afghanistan tweeted that the US, you know, has already

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Speaker 1: provided five million, and US officials made it clear the

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Speaker 1: Taliban that if they pursued a military takeover rather than

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Speaker 1: a negotiated settlement, that they would not be recognized. So

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Speaker 1: you do have a situation where the Taliban are unhappy

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Speaker 1: with the situation, but it doesn't look like the international

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Speaker 1: community thus far as budget. I want to go back

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Speaker 1: to something you talked about a little bit in the beginning,

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Speaker 1: and you talked about the central bankers reliant to some

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Speaker 1: extent on existing staff and some of the staff who

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Speaker 1: probably worked close with you at the Central Bank. One

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Speaker 1: of the big questions that people wondered about what would

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Speaker 1: happen to the sort of like civil servants who had

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Speaker 1: worked in government under a certain expectation of how the

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Speaker 1: government would be run and then rapid change. How many

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Speaker 1: staffords have they kept in place, and what has changed

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Speaker 1: for the people who are essentially doing the work of

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Speaker 1: running the government. And I guess based on the people

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Speaker 1: you speak to and um your sense of the professionals

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Speaker 1: basically running things, well, I think the first thing that

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Speaker 1: comes to mind is female staff have been told to

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Speaker 1: stay at home. So you know, I had a few

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Speaker 1: directors who are female and Davids and she said stay

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Speaker 1: at home and in other words, you know, they're they're

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Speaker 1: not working there. Um So I think that's a big

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Speaker 1: loss um and continues to be um. You know, we

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Speaker 1: can talk about the education and the fact that they're

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Speaker 1: not opening up schools as well, but you know, so,

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Speaker 1: so that's a very import an aspect that needs to

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Speaker 1: be discussed. Secondly, I think that I think they're hiring

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Speaker 1: or valuing, you know, people who they know and people

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Speaker 1: who they trust. So there's a number of people that

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00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:18,080
Speaker 1: I brought on professionals that have been released over the

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Speaker 1: past year, and I think that's unfortunate for the Central

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Speaker 1: Bank and for the country, and so they're forced to

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Speaker 1: find other opportunities and the people who remained or in

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Speaker 1: some cases people who have been there for thirty years.

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Speaker 1: So I think I mentioned last time even we spoke

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Speaker 1: that you know, I had one of my directors who

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Speaker 1: has worked at the Central Bank since the since the

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Speaker 1: Taliban were there previously, and so you know, he's someone

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Speaker 1: that they kept on because there's some level of trust,

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Speaker 1: I think. Um So, so it's a mix some people

415
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Speaker 1: left or and went into hiding, and because they were

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Speaker 1: afraid of that, what the reaction might be some people

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Speaker 1: that were able to leave the country, and so it's

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Speaker 1: it's it's a mix for for all the people who

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Speaker 1: previously there. Can I ask a potentially sensitive question, So

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Speaker 1: Ashraf Ghani, the former president, he infamously, I guess at

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Speaker 1: this point fled Capal, you know, apparently right when the

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00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:17,159
Speaker 1: US and the Taliban were negotiating some sort of handover

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Speaker 1: and UM. He gave an interview a few days ago

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Speaker 1: where he basically defended his decision and said that he

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Speaker 1: had done the best thing and that he'd saved Capple

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Speaker 1: by leaving UM. And you know, I'm aware that obviously

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00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:36,160
Speaker 1: you've left UM quite quickly as well. But after the president,

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Speaker 1: or after it had become clear that the president had

429
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Speaker 1: already left, what do you think of that? Of like

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Speaker 1: Ghani's explanation for why he left, I probably haven't changed

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Speaker 1: my view from when we first spoke, which is he

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Speaker 1: was placed in a very difficult situation. You know, some

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00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:57,880
Speaker 1: might say impossible, and so I recognize that. But at

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Speaker 1: the same time, the decision on the last day for

435
00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:05,440
Speaker 1: him to depart was his to take and you know,

436
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:08,399
Speaker 1: there should have been some planning or some recognition. You know,

437
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:12,600
Speaker 1: people debate whether, you know, if he should have stayed

438
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:15,840
Speaker 1: or left, but I think the key part is he

439
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:18,360
Speaker 1: should have known that things were deteriorating to such an

440
00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:22,960
Speaker 1: extent that some planning had to take place. And I think,

441
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:26,040
Speaker 1: you know, the decision to leave on that last day,

442
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:29,480
Speaker 1: leaving me, leaving you know a lot of people to

443
00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:34,119
Speaker 1: fend for themselves. Is you know where where I follow him? Ore?

444
00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:38,600
Speaker 1: There's still people evacuations happening, are not formal evacuations, But

445
00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:41,680
Speaker 1: are there still people who are finding their way out

446
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:44,360
Speaker 1: of the country at this point or to what degree

447
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:48,200
Speaker 1: has that been has that become impossible? There are still

448
00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:53,160
Speaker 1: some people receiving approvals for SIV status or P one

449
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:56,199
Speaker 1: or P two status. The issue then becomes they have

450
00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:59,439
Speaker 1: to travel to a third country um in order to

451
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:02,280
Speaker 1: apply and move the process forward, and that becomes really

452
00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:06,280
Speaker 1: challenging for for some people. So there's still efforts, but

453
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:10,920
Speaker 1: I think the flow has has significantly declined. So there's

454
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:12,840
Speaker 1: just one more thing on the economy that I wanted

455
00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:15,480
Speaker 1: to ask you about, and this is the idea of

456
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:21,440
Speaker 1: somehow retooling the existing Afghanistan economy in order to generate

457
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:25,639
Speaker 1: more revenue that the Taliban could actually be in charge of.

458
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:28,440
Speaker 1: And I think there was an official from the Taliban

459
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:34,159
Speaker 1: administration that talked about maybe boosting exports in order to

460
00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:38,280
Speaker 1: get that money and avert economic collapse. And I guess

461
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:42,640
Speaker 1: my question is how viable is that given that Afghanistan

462
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:46,680
Speaker 1: has always been um you know, imports have always heavily,

463
00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:50,240
Speaker 1: heavily outweighed its exports, which you talked about a little

464
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:53,120
Speaker 1: bit at the beginning of this discussion. Yeah, I think

465
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:56,960
Speaker 1: it's challenging. Right. So previously, before I was Central incouvernment

466
00:28:57,040 --> 00:28:59,960
Speaker 1: as Minister of Commerce and UM, we tried to push

467
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:02,760
Speaker 1: exports up to a billion for the first time, but

468
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:05,479
Speaker 1: our imports for seven billion, right, so you can very

469
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:08,239
Speaker 1: easily see this the huge gap we have in our

470
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:11,360
Speaker 1: trade balance. So you know, even if they're successful, let's

471
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,720
Speaker 1: say they push up exports to know one point two billion,

472
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 1: one point five billion, right, you're still going to have

473
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:20,040
Speaker 1: this very large trade deficit that you're gonna have to

474
00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:23,760
Speaker 1: finance through some means. So you know, if it's possible,

475
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:27,080
Speaker 1: if they're able to get some mining projects going and

476
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:30,840
Speaker 1: increase exports. Um, that would help on the margin, but

477
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:33,680
Speaker 1: I think the larger question still remains. You know, the

478
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:37,200
Speaker 1: international community. Without the support of the international community becomes

479
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:40,160
Speaker 1: a very challenging situation. You know, back in August, there

480
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:45,320
Speaker 1: are these theories that China would come in or you know,

481
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:48,760
Speaker 1: a large mining projects potentially could come in and and

482
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:52,560
Speaker 1: support the Taliban government. And I was skeptical then, and

483
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:55,960
Speaker 1: I think that's um, you know, played out the way

484
00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:58,360
Speaker 1: that I projected, in the sense that those kind of

485
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:02,280
Speaker 1: flows might be marginally supported, but um, the fundamental issue

486
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:05,920
Speaker 1: probably won't be resolved until there's some yes, it's until

487
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:08,200
Speaker 1: the international community finds out how to support them. And

488
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:11,640
Speaker 1: so you know, part of the solution is what we

489
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:14,240
Speaker 1: talked about just a few minutes ago, which is, you know,

490
00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:19,000
Speaker 1: if international community does provide let's say four billion to

491
00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:23,479
Speaker 1: the u N to spend in Afghanistan, and there has

492
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:25,360
Speaker 1: to be some oversight of the u N, but let's

493
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:29,959
Speaker 1: say that that gets spent in Afghanistan, Well, that's already

494
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 1: providing a significant portion of funding for the trade deficits.

495
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:53,320
Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting. I was reading through some of

496
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:57,040
Speaker 1: the Inspector General reports and I hadn't read through them

497
00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:01,720
Speaker 1: before until the fall, basically about its various aid and

498
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:04,680
Speaker 1: development initiatives that had taken place over the last twenty

499
00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:08,360
Speaker 1: years to build up greater domestic industry and things like tech,

500
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:12,400
Speaker 1: textiles and crafts and other services. And it was sort

501
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:15,320
Speaker 1: of like it was a depressing read because it read like,

502
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:18,120
Speaker 1: you know, all of these endeavors were a large string

503
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:20,920
Speaker 1: of failures, and these programs that were designed to create

504
00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:24,280
Speaker 1: jobs they largely didn't or numerous ones didn't. And they

505
00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:27,120
Speaker 1: would say after five years that created four jobs after

506
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:30,040
Speaker 1: spending eighty million dollars or whatever it is. Do you

507
00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:32,760
Speaker 1: have a sense and you're like, what is it about

508
00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:36,640
Speaker 1: that approach to development that didn't work? Because obviously lots

509
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:39,840
Speaker 1: of money was poured in with the hope of creating

510
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:43,160
Speaker 1: some sort of some sort of sustainable industry, creating export,

511
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:46,600
Speaker 1: not a lot of successes. Why didn't it work? And

512
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 1: is there a better was there? Is there a better

513
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:53,560
Speaker 1: model or was there a potential superior model? That's an

514
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 1: important question. I think there is a better, better model,

515
00:31:57,160 --> 00:31:59,440
Speaker 1: and there's a lot of flaws with the existing model

516
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:03,520
Speaker 1: you have is you know, and I remember back working

517
00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 1: in the ministry of Finance back in two thousand three

518
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:10,160
Speaker 1: when these eight flows were picking up. What happens is

519
00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:14,960
Speaker 1: you have a lot of people coming in from various embassies.

520
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:17,200
Speaker 1: So you know, you have USAID, do you have UK aid?

521
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:21,640
Speaker 1: You have these various development agencies and they're looking for projects.

522
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 1: So they're saying, hey, you know from d C or London,

523
00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:29,600
Speaker 1: we just received X million dollars or billion dollars that

524
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:33,160
Speaker 1: we need to spend in Afghanistan. And then like you

525
00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:37,480
Speaker 1: have the military aid contracting sector. So in the US

526
00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:42,560
Speaker 1: UM there's a big three famous U said contractors, Camonics,

527
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:46,600
Speaker 1: d Ai, and I think one other who put together

528
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:51,360
Speaker 1: these projects. And then they also subcontract to local NGOs

529
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:54,880
Speaker 1: and and what happens is, without a lack of focus,

530
00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:59,560
Speaker 1: a lot of aid agencies and geos come with projects

531
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:02,520
Speaker 1: that are you know, in some ways you could say important,

532
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 1: but perhaps not useful for state development or helpful in

533
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:09,960
Speaker 1: the long run. Right, So you have you know, someone

534
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:12,960
Speaker 1: saying we need to provide bicycles for the handicap we

535
00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:16,440
Speaker 1: need UM. I think there's a Washington Post article recently

536
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:20,520
Speaker 1: that said UM that cited a project where they imported

537
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:25,920
Speaker 1: Kashmir or goats from I forget where Nepal for Afghanistan

538
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:28,760
Speaker 1: and at the end, you know, at a very high cost,

539
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:30,880
Speaker 1: and at the end it didn't really support local industry.

540
00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:33,640
Speaker 1: So you have a lot of these at Hawk projects

541
00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:36,960
Speaker 1: going on that at the end don't add up. And

542
00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:39,120
Speaker 1: so when you do that over a course of many,

543
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:42,000
Speaker 1: many years, you look back and you say, what was

544
00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:43,840
Speaker 1: the impact of all that? And I think that's where

545
00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:47,360
Speaker 1: the cigar reports come in, and and it's, as you said,

546
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:50,800
Speaker 1: perhaps a disheartening read. Um. So some you know, structural

547
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:53,680
Speaker 1: thinking needs to be had around how to provide better

548
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:57,600
Speaker 1: aid in these contexts, and especially now right, so it's

549
00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:01,840
Speaker 1: not something that's passed. And now the at donors will

550
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 1: provide funding to the u N and NGOs, a significant

551
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:11,160
Speaker 1: portion will go for humanitarian purposes and so that's more

552
00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:13,880
Speaker 1: clear cut. You're but you're buying food or you're providing

553
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:16,840
Speaker 1: health services for the people, and it's not at Hawk projects,

554
00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:19,640
Speaker 1: but a portion of that, you know, I think might

555
00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:22,239
Speaker 1: go to such projects. And so some oversight needs to

556
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:25,600
Speaker 1: be continued, even even in the current environment, or perhaps

557
00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:29,440
Speaker 1: more so in the current environment. Yeah, sorry, I just um,

558
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:33,600
Speaker 1: I started googling for that goat story Apparently the US

559
00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:36,640
Speaker 1: spent six million dollars on a project to import nine

560
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:42,960
Speaker 1: Italian goats to boost Afghanistan's Kashmir market and it didn't work. Interesting,

561
00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:47,040
Speaker 1: So I guess my last question is are there any

562
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:53,239
Speaker 1: catalysts on the horizon to improve the situation? It just

563
00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:57,719
Speaker 1: feels like there's a very big well. It feels like

564
00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:01,319
Speaker 1: there's a very negative dynamic in the Gghanistan economy right now,

565
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:05,800
Speaker 1: and it feels like it's incredibly difficult to correct it.

566
00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:08,759
Speaker 1: I mean, it was challenging before when you were a

567
00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:12,040
Speaker 1: central bank governor, and it seems even more challenging now

568
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:15,520
Speaker 1: given that the entire economy is so heavily dollarized but

569
00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:19,319
Speaker 1: now doesn't have any access to dollars. So is there

570
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:23,040
Speaker 1: any point that you see where things might get better

571
00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:28,080
Speaker 1: or where the system might end up getting fixed. I

572
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:29,880
Speaker 1: think we're not probably not going to end up with

573
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:32,160
Speaker 1: an optimal outcome. I think we're going to have to

574
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:35,040
Speaker 1: deal with a second best or third best type of

575
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:40,520
Speaker 1: situation that at its heart, it's not as stable as

576
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:43,840
Speaker 1: we would like. So you know, you're going to have

577
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:47,200
Speaker 1: a situation where the Taliban are going to be in

578
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:52,000
Speaker 1: power for the foreseeable future, there might be some issues

579
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:56,240
Speaker 1: or inter Taliban issues, but they're there right now. Money

580
00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:58,800
Speaker 1: will not be flowing to them. It will be flowing

581
00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:03,160
Speaker 1: through the u N and through NGOs to provide humanitarian

582
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:07,080
Speaker 1: assistance to the people. That amount will likely not be

583
00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:11,719
Speaker 1: enough to grow the economy or raise living standards, or

584
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:14,520
Speaker 1: perhaps not even to sustain existing level extent. It's just

585
00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:18,759
Speaker 1: going to decline to a lower state over time, and

586
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:21,960
Speaker 1: so that's on the negative side, I guess on the

587
00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:24,440
Speaker 1: positive side, what I'd say is the U. S. Treasury

588
00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:30,240
Speaker 1: has released three new general licenses which provides greater clarity

589
00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:33,920
Speaker 1: to donors and and NGOs and the UN that they

590
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:36,799
Speaker 1: can provide services, and so that I think should open

591
00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:40,320
Speaker 1: up the flow of humanitarian assistance in Afghanistan to a

592
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:43,640
Speaker 1: greater extent, so that we likely won't see the worst

593
00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:46,680
Speaker 1: outcome which we've heard and read about over the past

594
00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:49,120
Speaker 1: few months, which is, you know, as we move into

595
00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:53,400
Speaker 1: the winter season, there's perhaps upwards of twenty million people

596
00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:56,279
Speaker 1: who are food insecure, and so you know the risk

597
00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:59,880
Speaker 1: to them of a severe negative outcome, and so I

598
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:03,560
Speaker 1: think we're likely to avoid that with these recent changes.

599
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:06,640
Speaker 1: But it's not going to create a situation that's going

600
00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:11,200
Speaker 1: to improve. It's probably going to be a relatively stable

601
00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:15,439
Speaker 1: but a situation where both parties are unhappy. Unfortunately, there's

602
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:19,120
Speaker 1: not better news. I don't think looking back at everything

603
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:22,600
Speaker 1: that's happened in the past few months, is there anything

604
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:26,600
Speaker 1: that you think you would or should have done differently

605
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:31,880
Speaker 1: with the benefit of hindsight. Yeah, yeah, it's a good question. Um.

606
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:37,360
Speaker 1: I'll answer in two parts. I think first, this was

607
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:41,200
Speaker 1: a state collapse on the grandest scale, and as such

608
00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:44,480
Speaker 1: there's a lot of anger, and I understand that anger.

609
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:47,400
Speaker 1: And if there's a part that I contributed to that,

610
00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:51,799
Speaker 1: then I take my responsibility. But what I will say

611
00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:57,439
Speaker 1: is this was not a state collapse like it wasn't

612
00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:00,640
Speaker 1: Lebanon where the central bank was at the heart of

613
00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:05,000
Speaker 1: the collapse. This has not Venezuela or Syria where hyper

614
00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:09,359
Speaker 1: inflation was taking place. You know, at the central bank,

615
00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:15,040
Speaker 1: inflation was at four we had central bank reserves of

616
00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:18,440
Speaker 1: fifteen months in port coverage, that provided fifteen months in

617
00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:22,320
Speaker 1: port coverage ratio, and we're implementing payment systems that I

618
00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:25,759
Speaker 1: think few central banks in the world have done. If

619
00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:28,160
Speaker 1: there's something that I should have done, what it was

620
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:33,120
Speaker 1: you know to resign earlier and left. Um, and perhaps

621
00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:36,719
Speaker 1: you know, seeing what was going on, recognized that I

622
00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:41,400
Speaker 1: was not going to change the situation and leave. Well, Ajmal,

623
00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:44,439
Speaker 1: thank you so much for coming back on the show

624
00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:47,160
Speaker 1: and giving us an update on the situation. I appreciate it.

625
00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:50,600
Speaker 1: Thank you very much for having It's a pleasure. Thank you,

626
00:38:50,880 --> 00:39:08,920
Speaker 1: Jamal so Joe. Um, I can't say that was a

627
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:12,400
Speaker 1: fun conversation. Um. Obviously it was a very depressing conversation

628
00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:16,200
Speaker 1: to hear about an economy collapsing and people being at

629
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:20,080
Speaker 1: very real risk of dying of starvation and things like that.

630
00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:23,319
Speaker 1: But it was good to speak with Ashmal and get

631
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:27,000
Speaker 1: an update on the situation and also, you know, as

632
00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:31,040
Speaker 1: he mentioned some of the accusations that have emerged since

633
00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:34,800
Speaker 1: the fall of Trouble. Yeah, I mean, it's obviously I

634
00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:37,360
Speaker 1: don't know if I would say it's an impossible situation,

635
00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:41,600
Speaker 1: but certainly seems like a near impossible situation to have

636
00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:46,200
Speaker 1: a sort of like robust thriving economy in in in

637
00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:48,600
Speaker 1: a situation which are cut off and which are not

638
00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:52,080
Speaker 1: not getting significant amount of dollar a at at least

639
00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:54,879
Speaker 1: nothing like it was before, in which there isn't much

640
00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:58,880
Speaker 1: of an export sector. It's pretty minor. Yeah, I mean

641
00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:02,000
Speaker 1: it was already it is already difficult, and it's interesting

642
00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 1: to hear that how much of it is, how much

643
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:09,960
Speaker 1: of the leg down has been through is was surprised

644
00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:13,000
Speaker 1: about it the shrinking GDP as opposed to sort of

645
00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:16,200
Speaker 1: surging inflation, which I guess hasn't been as bad as

646
00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:19,759
Speaker 1: he had expected. Yeah, that was interesting. The other thing

647
00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:22,160
Speaker 1: that struck me is this idea of all the workarounds

648
00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:25,400
Speaker 1: of how to actually get aid to people without it

649
00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:28,600
Speaker 1: flowing through the Taliban, and this idea that I guess

650
00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:31,560
Speaker 1: you're going to end up with the Taliban as a

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Speaker 1: centralized government, but one that doesn't actually provide that many

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Speaker 1: services other than I guess security, um and the army,

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Speaker 1: and then everything else just ends up getting sort of

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Speaker 1: outsourced to NGOs. Yeah, that's probably and it's very easy

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Speaker 1: to imagine that that would be like it will also

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Speaker 1: be interesting. This didn't come up in our discussion, but

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Speaker 1: of course people often talk about the difficulty that any

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Speaker 1: centralized authority in Cobbal would have in terms of uh

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Speaker 1: the affairs of the state across the entire territory of Afghanistan,

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Speaker 1: and it is somewhat easy to imagine that state of

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Speaker 1: affairs as you're describing and as Jamala described of, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the NGOs delivering some of these services, donors rerouting around

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Speaker 1: the Taliban, and that's sort of being the status quo

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Speaker 1: for some time. Yeah, all right, well shall we leave

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Speaker 1: it there? Let's leave it there. Okay. This has been

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Speaker 1: another episode of the All Thoughts Podcast. I'm Tracy Alloway.

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Speaker 1: You can follow me on Twitter at Tracy Alloway and

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00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:38,040
Speaker 1: I'm Joe Why Isn't All? You could follow me on

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00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:42,080
Speaker 1: Twitter at the Stalwart. Follow our producer Laura Carlson. She's

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00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:45,600
Speaker 1: at Laura M. Carlson. Follow the Bloomberg head of podcast,

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Speaker 1: Francesca Leaving at Francesca Today, and check out all of

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Speaker 1: our podcasts at Bloomberg under the handle at podcasts. Thanks

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Speaker 1: for listening to