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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Two beautiful women seemingly unrelated

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Speaker 1: and both go missing. Is it a coincidence or is

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Speaker 1: it a clue? Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The first

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Speaker 1: thing you do in any investigation is look and determine

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Speaker 1: who is your victim. That way you may be able

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Speaker 1: to figure out who is the killer. Take a listen

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Speaker 1: to our friends at crime online dot com. By all accounts,

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Speaker 1: twenty nine year old Bobby Oberholtzon has been happily married

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Speaker 1: for four and a half years, living with her husband

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Speaker 1: in Alma. Jeff Oberholten runs an appliance repair business. She

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Speaker 1: is a receptionist. The day Bobby Oberholtzen goes missing, she

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Speaker 1: leaves for work around seven fifteen am. Jeff Oberholtsen tells

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Speaker 1: Unsolved Mysteries that it was a common occurrence for his

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Speaker 1: wife to hitchhike. Everybody hitshiden. You guys to know the

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Speaker 1: people in the town, and they got to know you,

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Speaker 1: and they'd look for you to take you over and

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Speaker 1: back if you needed to ride around. Dinnertime, Oberholtsen calls

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Speaker 1: her husband to let him know that she was out

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Speaker 1: with friends and would get a ride home, so according

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Speaker 1: to the husband, she is alive and well at dinner

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Speaker 1: time and was getting a ride home. Let's analyze what

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Speaker 1: we know already with me an all star panel to

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Speaker 1: try and apply logic to an illogical situation. Twenty seven

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Speaker 1: years metro major case detective, now lawyer at James at

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Speaker 1: shell Nutt at shell Nutt Law Firm dot com. Renowned

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Speaker 1: psychologists and joining us out of the Birmingham's Station. Doctor

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Speaker 1: Allen Blockkey, PhD. You can find him at Alan Blockkey

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Speaker 1: at att dot net. Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University. Author

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Speaker 1: of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, star of a

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Speaker 1: new series on the True Crime Network, Poisonous Liaison's Death

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Speaker 1: investigator Joseph Scott Morgan, genetic genealogist, founder of The gene Hunter,

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Speaker 1: and you can find her at the gene Hunter dot com.

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Speaker 1: Scher at la point but first to Anjanette Leavy, Emmy

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Speaker 1: nominated reporter and anchor, and you can find Anjanette on

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Speaker 1: Twitter at Anjanette five the number five, Anjanette, What do

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Speaker 1: we know about the first woman we're discussing? Twenty nine

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Speaker 1: year old Bobby Oberholtzer, apparently happily married. Yeah, and as

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Speaker 1: her husband said, Nancy, which is kind of shocking, But

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Speaker 1: I guess back then it's not so shocking that everybody hitchhights,

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Speaker 1: which just seems incredibly dangerous. We've heard of so many

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Speaker 1: cases over the years with women being kind of scooped

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Speaker 1: up and taken advantage of by predators who are picking

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Speaker 1: up hitchhikers. So obviously she's a happily married woman out

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Speaker 1: going to work and then going out with friends. Internet. Leavy,

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Speaker 1: You're absolutely correct. Everything seemingly normal and at a time

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Speaker 1: when hitchhiking was the norm. Believe it or not, I've

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Speaker 1: actually picked up a hitchhiker. Oh what was I thinking?

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Speaker 1: Obviously I survived this woman, Bobby Oberholzer. I'm looking right

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Speaker 1: at her. She looks like fair Fawcett with her hair

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Speaker 1: not quite as puffy, but really gorgeous. Lady with the wings,

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Speaker 1: working in brecon Ridge, Colorado. Hitchhiking. Mm. Interesting. So she

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Speaker 1: goes missing, but that evening, the husband says he gets

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Speaker 1: a phone call from her saying that she had been

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Speaker 1: out with her friends and she was getting a ride home.

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Speaker 1: M take a listen to Jackie Howard a crime online

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Speaker 1: by two Am. Bobby Oberholzen had not returned home. Jeff

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Speaker 1: finds out from her friends that she left the bar

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Speaker 1: around seven thirty. He tries to report her missing, but

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Speaker 1: it's told my police that it's too early to file

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Speaker 1: a report. The next morning, thirty miles outside of Breckinridge,

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Speaker 1: a farmer finds Bobby's driver's license. What does that mean? Strange?

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Speaker 1: Un James Shelnut, twenty seven years Metro major case including

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Speaker 1: swat now defense lawyer. What do you mean it's too

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Speaker 1: soon to report somebody missing? I mean, if my twins

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Speaker 1: aren't right there for pickup at three thirty, I'm calling

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Speaker 1: cops and they darn well but a launch an investigation prompto. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, of course Stacey progressed and matured law enforcement

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Speaker 1: wise over case. But you know, normally, when an adult

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Speaker 1: goes missing, there's at least a twenty four hour window

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Speaker 1: that police away before they follow a missing person's report,

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Speaker 1: and that's probably what they're referring to here. No, adults

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Speaker 1: are a little bit different than kids. Sure, if a

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Speaker 1: kid is missing, you know that the status now is

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Speaker 1: that you know immediately police start a massive investigation. But

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Speaker 1: with an adult they handle it differently. Okay, So your

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Speaker 1: answer is with children they started investigation with With adults,

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Speaker 1: they don't. That really didn't answer my question. I think

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Speaker 1: what it goes to, frankly to doctor Alan Blockkeey clinical

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Speaker 1: psychologists joined me out of Birmingham. When a woman goes missing,

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Speaker 1: I've heard it a million times. Oh, she ran off

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Speaker 1: with a boyfriend, She's laid up in hotels somewhere, she's this,

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Speaker 1: she's that. They always seem to explain it away, and

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Speaker 1: you know what, it's very rarely explained away rationally. Why

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Speaker 1: is that? Well, And you're absolutely right, And what it

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Speaker 1: shows is that time is of the essence. You're going

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Speaker 1: to sit around for twenty four hours. Twenty four hours

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Speaker 1: is a very long time. Bad things happen. And then

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Speaker 1: when people go missing like that, as you said, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: it's rarely an instant explanation. So time is of the essence.

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Speaker 1: And that leads me, doctor Blockkey, to what we call

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Speaker 1: routine evidence. And I don't mean run of the meal evidence.

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Speaker 1: I mean evidence of routine. She had never not come

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Speaker 1: home before. That had never happened with Bobby Joe Oberholtz

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Speaker 1: her She came home every night and say hey, I'm

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Speaker 1: catching a rod I'm going to be home, but she

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Speaker 1: never made it. Why cops didn't pick up on the

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Speaker 1: fact of how extraordinary that was for her, how out

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Speaker 1: of the norm that was for her. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: But don't you agree, doctor Alan Block or do you

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Speaker 1: that people like animals are typically creatures have happened? Of course,

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Speaker 1: we do the same thing over and over. It's not

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Speaker 1: like my twins are not going to come home from school,

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Speaker 1: say where's Mommy's mommy? Mommy's not cooking dinner tonight, where's mommy?

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Speaker 1: I'm going to bed, where's mommy? No, that's not happening. Now,

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Speaker 1: you're absolutely right, and that what that calls for is

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Speaker 1: just a couple of very quick important questions to get

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Speaker 1: the total context, to lead you to some very quick conclusion.

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Speaker 1: To Anginette Levy, Emmy nominated reporter and anchor, Anginette, where

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Speaker 1: again did Bobby Joe Aberholtz her go missing in brecon

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Speaker 1: Ridge is south of Breckinridge, Colorado, Actually, and she had

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Speaker 1: been out with friends, as you mentioned, and that she

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Speaker 1: was going to be home trying to figure out what

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Speaker 1: happened to Bobby Joe Aberholts her Now at the same time,

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Speaker 1: we're juggling cases. Let's talk about a net Schnee twenty

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Speaker 1: one years old. Take a listen to Casey AUTV nine.

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Speaker 1: Lydia Esquez, a nut Snee, was twenty one years old.

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Speaker 1: She was raised in Siux City but living in Colorado

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Speaker 1: at the time. I met Annette on Morningside Avenue at

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Speaker 1: the McDonald's. Scott Smith was a nuts Schnee's high school boyfriend.

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Speaker 1: I was instantly drawn to her. She was a beautiful girl,

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Speaker 1: and that was loyal and just really lovable. I mean,

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Speaker 1: everybody really liked her. Prime Stories with Nancy Grace a

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Speaker 1: nut Schnee was twenty one years old. She was raised

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Speaker 1: in Siux City but living in Colorado at the time.

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Speaker 1: I met Annette on Morningside Avenue at the McDonald's. Scott

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Speaker 1: Smith was a nuts Shenie's high school boyfriend. I was

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Speaker 1: instantly drawn to her. She was a beautiful girl, and

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Speaker 1: that was loyal and just really lovable. I mean, everybody

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Speaker 1: really liked her. For those of you just joining us

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Speaker 1: to beautiful young women one one, one twenty nine who

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Speaker 1: looked very similar physically go missing coincidence or a clue.

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Speaker 1: You just heard the high school sweetheart of twenty one

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Speaker 1: year old Annette Schni described me her as lovable, loyal,

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Speaker 1: fun take a listen again to our friends at casey Au.

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Speaker 1: After high school, both of them left Sioux City. Smith

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Speaker 1: says he wrote Shen wanting to visit her, but he

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Speaker 1: never heard back, and that's when he began to worry.

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Speaker 1: Annet's mom called me up and she said, good, what

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Speaker 1: did you mean when you said you were worried about Annette?

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Speaker 1: And I said, well, you know, I just I hadn't

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Speaker 1: heard from her, and I was just a little concerned

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Speaker 1: about her. And she said, well, Annette's roommates have called

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Speaker 1: and said that she didn't show up but worked last

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Speaker 1: night and she hadn't showed up at at their house.

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Speaker 1: She was reported missing for months. So let me understand this.

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Speaker 1: Back to you and Jeanette Levy, reporter and anchor. So

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Speaker 1: this high school friends trying to reconnect, high school boyfriend

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Speaker 1: trying to reconnect because he had written her and never

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Speaker 1: heard back. But her mom says she didn't show up

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Speaker 1: for work or back home and then was reported missing.

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Speaker 1: And Jeanette, what do we know about where she worked,

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Speaker 1: who reported her missing? Where she was last saying what

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Speaker 1: do we know, well, we know that Annette was working

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Speaker 1: in Breckinridge, very similar to Bobby Joe. They were both

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Speaker 1: working in that city. So in these these happened on

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Speaker 1: these happened very close together. They both looked very similar.

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Speaker 1: They're both beautiful, young blonde women, you know. Very interesting.

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Speaker 1: I will never forget doctor Allen block Key, clinical psychologist

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Speaker 1: joining us. I was prosecuting what I believed to be

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Speaker 1: a serial killer and finally got him on one Jane Doe.

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Speaker 1: And because he left DNA that time and had no

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Speaker 1: idea who he was, it was not getting a match

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Speaker 1: in the system, and we didn't know who the victim

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Speaker 1: was by the end of the case. Okay, by the

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Speaker 1: time I took it to trial, I found a defendant

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Speaker 1: who was a sheep in Atlanta. I found his girlfriend

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Speaker 1: who had thrown him out. She looked almost identical to

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Speaker 1: the dead victim. And I found a previous rape agasalt

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Speaker 1: attempted murder of victim of his She looked like the

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Speaker 1: other two. So as part of my argument in closing statements,

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Speaker 1: I held up I had it drawn a creation of

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Speaker 1: what the dead victim looked like in life, a recry,

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Speaker 1: and I compared it to a blown up photo of

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Speaker 1: the lover who kicked him out and the other victim.

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Speaker 1: They all looked just alike. And I argued, who else

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Speaker 1: would kill her other than the man who was rejected

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Speaker 1: by her? And that jury did not need a shrink,

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Speaker 1: no offense to figure it out. What does that mean?

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Speaker 1: Like Ted Bundy? When you look at his victims, so

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Speaker 1: many of them are thin, frail looking, petite slight white

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Speaker 1: females with dark hair parted in the middle. They all

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Speaker 1: looked so alike to me. I think that's exactly the

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Speaker 1: thread that ties it together. You know, I'm thinking back,

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Speaker 1: what can I learn from Bobby Joe's case that may

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Speaker 1: help me in Annette Schneeze case. I know that night

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Speaker 1: the husband, Jeff had made dinner. He knew she was

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Speaker 1: coming home. He was waiting on her to eat supper.

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Speaker 1: How many times have we done that? Before? He falls asleep,

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Speaker 1: wakes up at midnight, discovered she didn't come home. He

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Speaker 1: waited still she had not returned. That's when he learned

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Speaker 1: she had left her friends. Around seven thirty pm. The

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Speaker 1: next morning, a farmer who lives thirty miles outside Breckinridge

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Speaker 1: finds Bobby Joe's license, Jeff and two friends go to

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Speaker 1: pick it up, and on the way, the husband Jeff,

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Speaker 1: spots something blue colored out in a snowy field. What

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Speaker 1: did he find? Take a listen to our forensic crime

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Speaker 1: online dot com. A farmer finds Bobby's driver's license. As

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Speaker 1: Jeff Oberholtzen and two friends go to pick it up,

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Speaker 1: he spots Bobby's blue backpack in a snow covered field.

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Speaker 1: A blood spattered glove and some bloody tissues are found

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Speaker 1: with it. What do we learn from that? To Joseph

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Speaker 1: Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, Jackson State University and author, we

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Speaker 1: learn that Bobby's blue backpack is in a snow covered field,

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Speaker 1: a blood spattered glove and bloody tissues found with it.

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Speaker 1: And what's interesting to me is that the husband finds it.

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Speaker 1: Not the police, of course, that put suspicion on the

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Speaker 1: husband right off the bat, but he had friends with him.

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Speaker 1: Tell me how snow would impact the crime scene? Well,

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Speaker 1: I gotta tell you, Nancy. First off, there a couple

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Speaker 1: of pieces here which snow. One of the things that

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Speaker 1: you're going to look for obviously are going to be

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Speaker 1: like if it's not, if it hasn't snowed recently. You're

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Speaker 1: going to look for things like footprints in the snow

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Speaker 1: because they have, particularly these elevations, it's going to remain intact.

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Speaker 1: He'll be able to appreciate those around around the area

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Speaker 1: where these items are found, so the local law enforcement

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Speaker 1: can go up there and actually do castings of these. Now,

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Speaker 1: I think that it's really interesting here. We're talking about

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Speaker 1: a profile where we have a backpack that is found

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Speaker 1: in one location and along with these tissues and these

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Speaker 1: other things. But what do we learn about her body? Well,

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Speaker 1: her body's fifteen miles away, Nancy. So if we're developing

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Speaker 1: a profile, we know that whoever's doing this is driving

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Speaker 1: a car. It's not like she just wandered out there

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Speaker 1: and suddenly deposit her backpack in the snow nonetheless and

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Speaker 1: subfreezing temperatures, and then wound up in another location because

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Speaker 1: she walked there. We know that whoever is handling this

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Speaker 1: is using some kind of conveyance and driving them around.

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Speaker 1: And again, not only do you have a scene there,

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Speaker 1: but whoever is depositing, whoever deposited her body, you've got

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Speaker 1: a scene within this car because this is literally a

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Speaker 1: mobile crime scene. That this individual is driving around in

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Speaker 1: You're gonna find blood there, You're gonna find hair and fiber,

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Speaker 1: You're gonna find all these other things that have left,

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Speaker 1: that have been left deposited, that are the essence of

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Speaker 1: her coming back to the initial location. Wow, And I

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Speaker 1: was thinking of simply there were no footprints in the

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Speaker 1: snow of her coming back. That's what I thought you

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Speaker 1: were going to say, But you said a whole lot more.

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Speaker 1: Of course, it's typical SOP standard operating procedure for the

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Speaker 1: husband to be considered the first suspect when you find

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Speaker 1: evidence that a wife has been killed. Right off the bat.

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Speaker 1: It was determined that the blood found on Bobby's gloves

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Speaker 1: and tissues with her backpack while it belonged, they thought

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Speaker 1: it was hers, but DNA testing later determined it came

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Speaker 1: from a nail, further indicating it could be the husband.

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Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace, guys, we were talking about

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Speaker 1: the disappearance of two beautiful young women. They look both

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Speaker 1: of them so similar to each other, and to get

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Speaker 1: a mental picture, they both remind me of Farra Faucet

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Speaker 1: when she was about twenty five years old. Bringing in

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Speaker 1: sheryla point to analyze blood found at the scene where

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Speaker 1: obviously Bobby Joe Oberholtzer was kidnapped. So what about blood

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Speaker 1: can tell you whether it's a male or a female? Yes, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: a female will have two X chromosomes and a male

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Speaker 1: will have a Y in an X. So immediately you're

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Speaker 1: going to notice that difference when you do an analysis

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Speaker 1: that you're dealing with a female's DNA and with a

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Speaker 1: male's DNA, and you can separate that DNA. Now with

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Speaker 1: the techniques that are available, it makes it very obvious

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Speaker 1: that you have different profiles. So sheeryl a point genetic genealogist.

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Speaker 1: It comes down to one chromosome and you can tell

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Speaker 1: if it's a man or a woman just like that, Yes, ma'am. Wow,

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Speaker 1: Okay when you say it sounds so simple to a

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Speaker 1: Janette Levy Emmy nominated reporter and anchor, we immediately know

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Speaker 1: that so wrong. At the beginning, when they thought this

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Speaker 1: was all Bobby jo Oberholtzer's blood turned out to be

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Speaker 1: a man's blood. Was it determined to be or not

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Speaker 1: to be the husband's blood? Well, it was determined not

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Speaker 1: to be the husband's blood. It was a male's blood.

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Speaker 1: But back when this happened, they didn't have that technology,

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Speaker 1: the DNA technology, so you would have been going by

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Speaker 1: blood type and things like that. Back and when this happened.

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Speaker 1: When you're taking a look at the scene, James Shelnutt,

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Speaker 1: you find her backpack, you find bloody tissue, One of

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Speaker 1: her gloves are bloody. I would immediately think that's where

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Speaker 1: either a kidnap or a rape occurred. I'd be curious

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Speaker 1: how she got there. But it tells me there's definitely

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Speaker 1: a struggle right there, or or was her backpack and

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Speaker 1: the other items just thrown there? What does the scene

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Speaker 1: tell you? This crom scene was interesting to me when

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Speaker 1: I looked at it, because it could have told you

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Speaker 1: a couple of different things. You know, my first dolt

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Speaker 1: and I looked at this case, was that it was

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Speaker 1: impressive to me that the original detectives and prosecutor restrained

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Speaker 1: themselves from prosecuting the husband. You're right, he would have

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Speaker 1: been the primed suspect in this. And you know, what

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Speaker 1: is pretty strong that his footprints would only foot prints there.

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Speaker 1: So that's one way that it could have been looked at.

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Speaker 1: But when you look at this, you're right there there

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Speaker 1: is a struggle that is occurrent. Wait a minute, As

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Speaker 1: a matter of fact, you're exactly correct, James Shelnut. Because

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Speaker 1: police considered Jeff overholts her a suspect in both cases.

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Speaker 1: They thought it was more than a coincidence, and he

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Speaker 1: had known both victims, and that he was the one

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Speaker 1: that discovered his wife's backpack to Ajeanette Levy, So the

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Speaker 1: husband knows both the victims. Crazy. I mean, if you

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Speaker 1: think about it, how can you He must be like

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Speaker 1: the unluckiest guy on the planet. How do you know

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Speaker 1: both your wife and then this cocktail waitress. You just

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Speaker 1: happened to know her. And he was quoted as saying

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Speaker 1: he had met her and given him his business card.

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Speaker 1: So of course the police are going to focus on him.

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Speaker 1: So it's just it's unbelievable. And then he does something

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Speaker 1: that you never see a target in a criminal case

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Speaker 1: to do. He takes a lie detector test. What happened,

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Speaker 1: Jeanette Levy? As far as a lie detector test goes,

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Speaker 1: he passed. Wow, he passed it. So he passes a

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Speaker 1: lie detector test. To you, doctor Alan Blockkey, clinical psychologist,

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Speaker 1: Joinings Side of Birmingham. You always hear about people who

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Speaker 1: quote beat a lie detector test. We were watching one

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Speaker 1: of the oceans. Oceans, you know, I guess there's eleven twelve,

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Speaker 1: thirteen dollars eight and a guy in the movie, of course,

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Speaker 1: beats a lie detector test. By every time, every time

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Speaker 1: he's asked a question, whether it's what's your name? Or

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Speaker 1: is your name Nancy Grace, he steps down on attack

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Speaker 1: in his shoe. So every time he answers a question,

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Speaker 1: he's in distress. So when he lies and shows distress,

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Speaker 1: it's no different than all the other times he's answered

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Speaker 1: a question. He's sweating. He's like, oh, you know, while

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Speaker 1: he's taking this poly But I find it really difficult,

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Speaker 1: you know, to believe it when somebody says, hey, I

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Speaker 1: beat the polly, it's hard to beat a polygraph. Doctor. Yes,

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Speaker 1: that's very rare, and I think that's more dramatics than

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Speaker 1: in reality. The fact that he passed the polygraph I

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Speaker 1: think is meaningful. Well, it was very They must have

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Speaker 1: thought it was meaningful too, because then you have Annette

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Speaker 1: Schnigo missing. The search is on. Take a listen to

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Speaker 1: our friends at crime online. Two hours after the backpack

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Speaker 1: is discovered, Bobby Oberholtzen's body is found fifteen miles away.

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Speaker 1: The only footprints found by police are Bobby's, and a

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Speaker 1: plastic cord is tied around one of her wrists. And

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Speaker 1: of course that orange sock. An orange sock? Wait? Am

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Speaker 1: I hearing that we're gonna go forward with a murder

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Speaker 1: investigation because of an orange sock? Okay? Now I know

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Speaker 1: that her body has been found fifteen miles away. The

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Speaker 1: only footpints found by police, they think are bobbies with

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Speaker 1: a plastic cord tied around one of her wrists. Well,

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Speaker 1: that's a DNA dream right there, to have a plastic

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Speaker 1: cord tied around the victim's wrist. When I say a

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Speaker 1: DNA dream come true, what do I mean by that?

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Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan, You've got a plastic chord wrapped around

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Speaker 1: the victim's wrist. Yeah, in today's context, that's going to

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Speaker 1: leave you have the opportunity to pick up what's refer

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Speaker 1: too as touch DNA. And remember, if you're talking about

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Speaker 1: a plastic chord, this is a surface which you could

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Speaker 1: deposit dead skin cells. One. And what's really interesting is

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Speaker 1: in order to get that chord around her, it has

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Speaker 1: to be tied, doesn't it, Nancy, So it would have

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Speaker 1: to be logic. Would did take that it was being

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Speaker 1: tied by the perpetrator, who who left this woman in

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Speaker 1: this condition, So we believe that his DNA would be deposited.

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Speaker 1: They are also in addition to that, any other points

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Speaker 1: of contact on the body where he would have picked

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Speaker 1: her up, carried her, deposited her, I hate to say,

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Speaker 1: but had done things with the body post mortem or

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Speaker 1: maybe anti mortem. All of these things are going to

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Speaker 1: come into play. Are you talking about, among other things,

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Speaker 1: wire Man always so worried about the rape as opposed

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Speaker 1: to the murder. You know, I need a shrink for that,

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Speaker 1: But go ahead, well, you know, we begin to think

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Speaker 1: about all of these opportunities to harvest the DNA that's

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Speaker 1: going to come off of her body. And keep in mind,

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Speaker 1: as Anjeanette had said earlier, the reality is is that

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Speaker 1: during this time period, the only thing we had to

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Speaker 1: go on was ABO blood grouping. That's how we identified

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Speaker 1: people back then, and right now today we've come light

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Speaker 1: years ahead of that. We've advanced beyond that in order

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Speaker 1: to get people identified. But back then all they had

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Speaker 1: was ABO blood groupings. That's why This case is such

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Speaker 1: a testament to the investigators in the past because Nancy,

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Speaker 1: this evidence has been preserved for years and years and

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Speaker 1: years and years time stories with Nancy Grace. Two beautiful

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Speaker 1: young women go missing. Is it a coincidence or a clue?

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Speaker 1: We know what happened with Bobby Joe Oberholtz her, but

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Speaker 1: what about Annette Schnie. Take a listen to our friend

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Speaker 1: Leddy of esquiz Casey AUTV. We had to wait six

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Speaker 1: months until we got news that annex body had been found.

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Speaker 1: She'd been found lying face down on the on the

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Speaker 1: edge of a creek. She died from a single gunshot wound.

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Speaker 1: She is somebody I always looked up to. She would

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Speaker 1: do my hair, and she'd do my makeup and paint

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Speaker 1: my fingernails. And she acted more like the caregiver. She

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Speaker 1: was with me a lot of babysitting me. Cindy French

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Speaker 1: describes her sister as outgoing and goofy. It's almost obscured

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Speaker 1: sometimes when we're searching for forensic clues and trying to

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Speaker 1: make sense of a scene, to think about the person. Funny, beautiful, caregiver, outgoing, goofy.

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Speaker 1: Even Cindy is describing her sister Annette Schnee Ajeanette Levy.

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Speaker 1: Did I hear this correctly? An orange sock is found

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Speaker 1: near the body Bobby Joe Oberholtzer. Yeah, that's right. And

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Speaker 1: the orange sock Nancy did not belong to Bobby Joe.

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Speaker 1: So it was something that was kind of puzzling to

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Speaker 1: investigators where this orange sock just would have come from.

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Speaker 1: Two murders. You know, I don't believe in coincidence when

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Speaker 1: it comes to criminal law. Take a listen to our

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Speaker 1: friend at crime online. Two murders seemingly unrelated. The body

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Speaker 1: of twenty nine year old Bobby Oberholtzen is found near

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Speaker 1: a scenic overlook five miles south of Breckenridge, Colorado. She

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Speaker 1: had been shot twice. There's very little evidence at the scene. Nearby,

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Speaker 1: along with her house keys, police find an orange sock.

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Speaker 1: Six months later, the body of twenty one year old

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Speaker 1: Annette Schnee is discovered near a creek thirteen miles away.

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Speaker 1: She also has been shot. Imagine the officer's surprised when

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Speaker 1: they find Schnei is wearing the mate to the orange sock.

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Speaker 1: So an orange sock found near the first body. The

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Speaker 1: second body found months later wearing the mate to the

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Speaker 1: orange sock. James Shell at twenty seven years in law enforcement,

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Speaker 1: now defense lawyer, did you hear that? Yeah, that's pretty strong.

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Speaker 1: You know in a case where you know, if you

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Speaker 1: rule the husband out, you know, you think, okay, we've

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Speaker 1: not identified a suspect. We've got two different bodies that

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Speaker 1: are out there are two different murders. Are they connected?

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Speaker 1: And you know, in this particular case where you can't

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Speaker 1: find a connection of a human being between the two,

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Speaker 1: this sock is significant. It is significant because it almost

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Speaker 1: with certainty links these two murders. So if you find

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Speaker 1: the guy who did the first murder, he also got

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Speaker 1: the guy who did the second, and the owner of

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Speaker 1: the sock, I'm not sure. Take a listen to this.

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Speaker 1: So what is the significance of the orange sock? Both

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Speaker 1: Bobby Oberholtzen and Anete Schnee were last seen hitchhiking. Police

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Speaker 1: believed that the killer picked up Schnee around five pm,

423
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:19,200
Speaker 1: drove her twenty miles south of Breckenridge, and sexually assaulted

424
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:21,479
Speaker 1: her in his vehicle. In a hurry to put her

425
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:24,040
Speaker 1: clothes back on, Shnee put on one long sock of

426
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:27,040
Speaker 1: her own and an orange footy and tried to escape.

427
00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:29,480
Speaker 1: She was shot in the back and left in the snow.

428
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 1: Police say the killer apparently returned to Breckenridge, where he

429
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:36,680
Speaker 1: picked up Bobby and also tried to rape her. Oberholtzen

430
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:40,080
Speaker 1: apparently fought back and tried to escape, knocking the match

431
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:42,600
Speaker 1: to the orange footy out of the vehicle. She was

432
00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:45,360
Speaker 1: shot twice as she escaped and bled to death in

433
00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:49,840
Speaker 1: the deep snow, thus explaining why there's only one set

434
00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:54,640
Speaker 1: of prince out in that snow and they belonged to

435
00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:58,280
Speaker 1: the victims. She was shot at a range where the

436
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:01,720
Speaker 1: perp didn't have to get into the snow. Explain the

437
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 1: significance of that, just Scott Morgan, and the significance both

438
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,560
Speaker 1: victims shot dead, and what we can learn from ballistics,

439
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:13,440
Speaker 1: Oh well, ballistic matching I think is key here. They're

440
00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:17,440
Speaker 1: looking at what's referred to as a thirty eight caliber

441
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:22,720
Speaker 1: or three fifty seven magnum caliber round. They did not

442
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:27,240
Speaker 1: recover the firearm itself, but they did recover projectiles which

443
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:29,280
Speaker 1: can be matched. And of course we know about ballistic

444
00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:32,360
Speaker 1: fingerprinting with the lands and grooves that are left behind,

445
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:36,720
Speaker 1: the striations that are left behind on the bullet, and

446
00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:39,720
Speaker 1: so it is like a fingerprint. If you recover one

447
00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:43,520
Speaker 1: from one body, another from another body, and they are

448
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:48,120
Speaker 1: very similar within you know, ninety percentile, you're going to

449
00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:54,280
Speaker 1: have effectively what can be scientifically provable in court. That's significant.

450
00:30:54,560 --> 00:31:00,680
Speaker 1: And also there's nothing essentially left behind with this weapon.

451
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:03,160
Speaker 1: You don't have expended cartridges and this sort of thing,

452
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 1: because this is a revolver that's being used in a

453
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:08,720
Speaker 1: case like this. One more point, Nancy, that I think

454
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:12,880
Speaker 1: is it's critical here. One of the reports talks about

455
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:18,960
Speaker 1: how Machinee's body, her clothing was actually in disarray. I

456
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:23,720
Speaker 1: heard one reporter say that she quickly dressed. There's also

457
00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:28,160
Speaker 1: another possibility with serialized killings, and I've seen this with

458
00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:31,080
Speaker 1: my own eyes with several series I've worked over the

459
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 1: course of my career. Serial killers will literally treat dead

460
00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:41,080
Speaker 1: bodies like dolls. They'll undress them and then redress them

461
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:43,920
Speaker 1: and this sort of thing, and sometimes it's left as

462
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:47,000
Speaker 1: a marker for this behavior that they've been engaged in.

463
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:50,480
Speaker 1: And this is what's really ominous. It really gives me

464
00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:54,360
Speaker 1: a thought, are these the only two victims that might

465
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:56,400
Speaker 1: be out there? You know? Who did that? Is Ted

466
00:31:56,480 --> 00:32:00,840
Speaker 1: Bundy who would apply to bathe the dead bodies, redo

467
00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:05,120
Speaker 1: their hair and makeup and readdress them. Doctor Alan Blocke,

468
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:09,360
Speaker 1: I really need to shrink right now. Why would you

469
00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:13,720
Speaker 1: kill a woman then bathe her, redo her hair and

470
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:18,320
Speaker 1: makeup and redress her. I think it's a psychopath with

471
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:25,160
Speaker 1: clear sexual deviations and perversions. And this is a very

472
00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:30,880
Speaker 1: disturbed person who did this and did it more than once.

473
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:36,000
Speaker 1: And so this is not just anybody. This is not

474
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:42,200
Speaker 1: somebody fashion. This is a psychopath. And we see the

475
00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:45,800
Speaker 1: threads that tie together. Does share La Point and a

476
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:50,440
Speaker 1: genealogist founder of the gene Hunter not blue Jeans, g

477
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:56,840
Speaker 1: e The gene Hunter Twitter at La Point, Shara, Shara,

478
00:32:57,480 --> 00:33:00,400
Speaker 1: what do you need to crack this case? See with

479
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:06,760
Speaker 1: the advancement in DNA technology these days, we need a

480
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:13,360
Speaker 1: profile that can be uploaded to genealogy site that can

481
00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:19,160
Speaker 1: find matches and shared ancestor. Take a listen, Cheryl a Point,

482
00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:22,120
Speaker 1: you're on point, pardon the pun. Take a listen to

483
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:25,760
Speaker 1: Kerin Lee. At case n C TV four, Tory Mason

484
00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:28,800
Speaker 1: has learned it was DNA blood on a glove inside

485
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:31,760
Speaker 1: one of the victim's backpacks that, along with advances in

486
00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:36,640
Speaker 1: technology that helped crack this case. Barbara Oberholtzer and a

487
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:40,120
Speaker 1: Nat Schnee, we're seen hitchhiking near Breckinridge in January of

488
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:44,000
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty two. Oberholtzer's body was found on Who's Your Past.

489
00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:47,720
Speaker 1: The next day, Schnee's body discovered in Park County. Six

490
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 1: months later. Back to you, Chryla point, you said, we

491
00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:58,760
Speaker 1: need genetic genealogy, we need a family tree. What is

492
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:02,560
Speaker 1: jed match? How is that use? Sherff. Jedmatch is the

493
00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:08,480
Speaker 1: site that enthusiastic genealogists use because we always want to

494
00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:13,000
Speaker 1: find more cousins and DNA matches and put the puzzins together.

495
00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:18,920
Speaker 1: So jed match was invented by two men who were

496
00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:23,320
Speaker 1: an amateur genealogist. And if you test at one DNA

497
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:26,560
Speaker 1: company and I test out another, instead of having to

498
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:29,480
Speaker 1: test at all these different companies, we can upload our

499
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:33,000
Speaker 1: results to jedmatch and compare the results. Take a listen

500
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:36,279
Speaker 1: to Evan Krugel KdV RTV Fox thirty one. It's been

501
00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:40,439
Speaker 1: nearly four decades since Bobby, Joe Oberholtzer and Janet Schni

502
00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:44,440
Speaker 1: disappeared while hitchhiking separately outside of Brack and Rinch. I

503
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:47,840
Speaker 1: cannot begin to understand the pain and sufferings their families

504
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:50,680
Speaker 1: have had the face for nearly four decades. Today, Park

505
00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:54,720
Speaker 1: County officials announcing unarrest in the case thanks to DNA

506
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:58,000
Speaker 1: founded one of the original crime scenes. In this case,

507
00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:00,840
Speaker 1: it was on a glove, it was blood. Mitch Morrissey

508
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:04,120
Speaker 1: and United Data connect says that DNA did not match

509
00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:06,800
Speaker 1: any records in the state's database, so they had to

510
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:10,640
Speaker 1: take it a step further. Searching for similar DNA through

511
00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:15,640
Speaker 1: an online ancestry website, you start to get people that

512
00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:18,920
Speaker 1: are potential relatives and what you're looking for is the

513
00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:24,040
Speaker 1: most common recent ancestor. So do you share a point.

514
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:27,120
Speaker 1: How far back do you have to go? It's not

515
00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:31,239
Speaker 1: like this purps DNA just pops up on the registry.

516
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:33,320
Speaker 1: You have to go way way back to like the

517
00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:38,680
Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds. Sometimes, yes, Nancy, And you know, these cases

518
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:44,960
Speaker 1: are solved depending on the closest cousin that is found. Usually,

519
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:47,759
Speaker 1: and in this case it was a third cousin, which

520
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:50,080
Speaker 1: means you had to go all the way back to

521
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:56,280
Speaker 1: second grade grandparents. We have sixteen second grade grandparents, eight couples,

522
00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:59,560
Speaker 1: and you have to be able to compare all these

523
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:03,120
Speaker 1: DNA matches that you have access to to find which

524
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:07,279
Speaker 1: of those couples this perpetrator descends from. Surel a point

525
00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:12,279
Speaker 1: You're going death. Come forearm in here. I'm just a

526
00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:17,480
Speaker 1: trial lawyer. Could you break it down a tiny bit more? Okay, Nancy,

527
00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:22,320
Speaker 1: When you build a family tree and you get to

528
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:27,840
Speaker 1: your grade, your second grade grandparents, anyone who shared that

529
00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:31,880
Speaker 1: set of grandparents with you would be your third cousin.

530
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:37,880
Speaker 1: Once that was found, they had to compare that cousin

531
00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:43,040
Speaker 1: to other matches that were on the site. Build out

532
00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:47,480
Speaker 1: family trees and find the connection. Who is the couple

533
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:53,480
Speaker 1: that connects these DNA matches on you? Oh wait, wait,

534
00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:58,279
Speaker 1: you're saying that from the great grandparents. Yeah. I think

535
00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:00,279
Speaker 1: you're saying you get half of the DNA, but you

536
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:03,640
Speaker 1: got to figure out the couple that gives that precise

537
00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:08,400
Speaker 1: full DNA because a bunch of third cousins have similar

538
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 1: DNAs but not exactly the right DNA. That's correct. You

539
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:18,440
Speaker 1: need to find exactly which of the couples is connecting

540
00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:22,319
Speaker 1: these DNA match Got it? Got it? Take a listen

541
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:25,359
Speaker 1: to our France a KDVR team Morrissey says his team

542
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:28,800
Speaker 1: discovered a close match on Phillips and passed the information

543
00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:33,440
Speaker 1: along to investigators. They then have to obtain a DNA

544
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:37,719
Speaker 1: sample from the individual. Officials say Phillips was still living

545
00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:41,239
Speaker 1: in the area, so investigators tailed him for weeks until

546
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:44,400
Speaker 1: they got a chance to collect his DNA after. Morrissey

547
00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:46,920
Speaker 1: says they saw him stop at a fast food joint.

548
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:52,280
Speaker 1: He carried the trash from that food into a post

549
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:55,800
Speaker 1: office and he came out without it, and they rushed

550
00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:58,200
Speaker 1: right in and got it out of the garbage and

551
00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:01,680
Speaker 1: they were able to at his saliva off of some

552
00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:05,120
Speaker 1: of the trash that he deposited. Phillips is being held

553
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:09,000
Speaker 1: in a Park County jail. He's facing multiple charges, including

554
00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:13,839
Speaker 1: kidnapping and first degree murder. In Denver, Evan Kruegel got

555
00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:21,080
Speaker 1: that DNA match off items in the trash. DNA doesn't lie.

556
00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:28,279
Speaker 1: To Ajeanette Levy, Emmy nominated reporter and anchor, who is

557
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:31,279
Speaker 1: this guy and where is he now? He is a

558
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:35,520
Speaker 1: mechanic and they say he has been living in Colorado

559
00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:39,399
Speaker 1: for many, many years. So the sheriff out there said

560
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:42,640
Speaker 1: he wasn't surprised by that fact at all. I think

561
00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:45,200
Speaker 1: it raises a lot of questions though, did this guy

562
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:48,800
Speaker 1: just stop doing this? I can't imagine he just stopped.

563
00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:56,680
Speaker 1: Allie Phillips now seventy We wait as justice unfalls. Nancy

564
00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:59,479
Speaker 1: Grace Crime Story, signing off good bye friend,