Speaker 1: Can we just be human?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Like, what is wrong with just being human?
Speaker 3: To have pain, to feel sorrow, to feel disappointed, to
Speaker 3: be insecure, feel disappointment, failure, Like, can we just be human?
Speaker 2: This is it's okay that you're not okay and I'm
Speaker 2: your host, Megan Divine. So what would a meaningful life
Speaker 2: look like for you? According to death Doula Ailua Arthur,
Speaker 2: conversations about death can be the most enriching conversations we have.
Speaker 2: You're curious about how facing death plays a role in
Speaker 2: a good life, not actually sure what a death doula is,
Speaker 2: and should you live each day like it's your last?
Speaker 1: Like?
Speaker 2: There are a lot of questions answered in this week's show,
Speaker 2: all coming up right after this first break before we
Speaker 2: get started. Two quick notes. One, this episode is an
Speaker 2: on poor performance. I'm on break working on a giant
Speaker 2: new project, So we're releasing a mix of our favorite
Speaker 2: episodes from the first three seasons of the show. Some
Speaker 2: of these conversations you might have missed in your original seasons,
Speaker 2: and some shows just truly deserve multiple listens so that
Speaker 2: you capture all of the goodness. Second note, While we
Speaker 2: cover a lot of emotional, relational territory and our time
Speaker 2: here together. This show is not a substitute for skilled support,
Speaker 2: for a license mental health provider, or for professional supervision
Speaker 2: related to your work. Take what you learn here, take
Speaker 2: your thoughts and your reflections out into your world, and
Speaker 2: talk about it. Hey, friends, So, Ailua Arthur and I
Speaker 2: have known of each other for a lot of years.
Speaker 2: We've got a lot of friends in common. Our professional
Speaker 2: spheres overlap a lot, but I never actually got a
Speaker 2: chance to talk to her until this episode. Ailua Arthur
Speaker 2: is a death doula. She facilitates conversations about more mortality
Speaker 2: for people not planning to die anytime soon, and she
Speaker 2: helps people at the end of their lives, supporting them
Speaker 2: and their families through death. If you don't know her work,
Speaker 2: you might think that all of this stuff she does,
Speaker 2: these conversations about end of life and facing your mortality,
Speaker 2: it sounds kind of morbid. But here's the thing. People
Speaker 2: who directly engage with the reality of life tend to
Speaker 2: be immensely joyful, not morbid. Ailua is this expansive, generous,
Speaker 2: joyful person, and she just happens to talk a lot
Speaker 2: about death. It's a serious subject, obviously, but it's rooted
Speaker 2: in this truly embodied joy. That's like a conversational sweet
Speaker 2: spot that's hard to nail, but Ailua does it over
Speaker 2: and over and over again in this conversation that we're
Speaker 2: having here today and out in the world now. In
Speaker 2: this episode, we get into ideas of what makes a
Speaker 2: meaningful life, like what a meaningful life even means. We
Speaker 2: discuss why, with all of her work on normalizing conversations
Speaker 2: about death and getting friendly with your own mortality, why
Speaker 2: Alua may still leave this particular life kicking and screaming
Speaker 2: and clawing at the door. Alua also confirms this age
Speaker 2: old annoyance. I have a little pettiness on my part,
Speaker 2: but this like the squishing together of end of life
Speaker 2: like death and mortality and preparation, the squishing together of
Speaker 2: that stuff as a subject and grief as a subject
Speaker 2: like death and grief are not the same things, but
Speaker 2: they often get treated the same. If you don't know
Speaker 2: what I'm talking about, you will after you listen to
Speaker 2: the show. So what does a meaningful life look like
Speaker 2: for you? And how can exploring mortality help you figure
Speaker 2: that out? Also, why is the relationship between end of
Speaker 2: life and grief? More like an open marriage than a
Speaker 2: monogamous marriage. All of that and a whole lot of joy,
Speaker 2: starting right now with the excellent Alua Arthur.
Speaker 3: Aleena.
Speaker 2: I am so glad to have you here with me
Speaker 2: today like this. I feel like this has been a
Speaker 2: long time coming for us, so welcome.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Megan. I'm actually really really really happy to
Speaker 1: be here myself.
Speaker 2: We love this and honestly, like us, being so excited
Speaker 2: about spending this time together is something that I want
Speaker 2: to get into in my second question, but my first
Speaker 2: question so that people know where we're starting, I introduced
Speaker 2: you in my introduction, but can you give people your
Speaker 2: definition of what a death doula is.
Speaker 3: A death doula is somebody who does all of the
Speaker 3: non medical and holistic Karen support for the dying person,
Speaker 3: their circle of support, and their whole community through the
Speaker 3: death process. When people are healthy, we can help them
Speaker 3: complete comprehensive end of life plans when they know what
Speaker 3: it is that they're going to be dying of. We
Speaker 3: help people create the most ideal death for themselves under
Speaker 3: the circumstances. And then after a death, we help family
Speaker 3: members wrap up affairs of their loved ones life we
Speaker 3: just offer holistic death support.
Speaker 2: I think that people on the outside of your profession
Speaker 2: and of mind profession, think that these are really depressing
Speaker 2: things to spend your time on, And all of the
Speaker 2: death and grief people I know are the most joyful
Speaker 2: people that I've ever met. Do you think that's true
Speaker 2: for you? Like, have you experienced that?
Speaker 1: Absolutely true in my experience?
Speaker 2: What is that?
Speaker 3: Like?
Speaker 2: What is it about those of us? Maybe it's just
Speaker 2: my sample size, but like, what is it about those
Speaker 2: of us who do these really goodbye intensive professions, these
Speaker 2: emotional landscapes that a lot of people try to avoid, Like,
Speaker 2: how are we happy?
Speaker 3: That's a good question. I think it has a lot
Speaker 3: to do with the fact that we touch those emotional
Speaker 3: landscapes and we kind of ride them. I think we
Speaker 3: give ourselves permission to be in it all all the time,
Speaker 3: which means that we have access to joy I think,
Speaker 3: and access to like the full spectrum of life that
Speaker 3: makes it so much richer and fuller and more exciting
Speaker 3: and twinkly because we can also always see and we
Speaker 3: can be with the difficulty too.
Speaker 2: I think there's something in the energy it takes to
Speaker 2: hold back the truth s that's juicy. Yeah, I know that, Ailiu,
Speaker 2: and I know what I'm talking about when I say that,
Speaker 2: But diving into conversations that a lot of people try
Speaker 2: to avoid, Like, that's a struggle to not tell the
Speaker 2: truth about these things.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, it's really hard to keep the truth hidden and
Speaker 3: also just to keep the truth of where I am
Speaker 3: and how I'm feeling inside, certainly at the bedside or
Speaker 3: as death is approaching. I've certainly had families who have
Speaker 3: been like, don't tell the dying person that they're dying,
Speaker 3: And I'm like, you don't.
Speaker 1: Think that they know?
Speaker 3: I get in there, and then the dying person's like,
Speaker 3: don't tell my family I'm dying. I'm like, y'all need
Speaker 3: to start talking to each other, because it's going to
Speaker 3: be so much more complete and easy once you do, well,
Speaker 3: easier once they do. I think that extrapolating from the
Speaker 3: bedside into our lives itself, Like I have a hard
Speaker 3: time not letting I love you jump out of my
Speaker 3: throat when it's ready to do so, or I'm hungry,
Speaker 3: or I'm tired, or I'm out of social energy and
Speaker 3: I have to go back home. All these things just
Speaker 3: come out, which I think gives me an opportunity to
Speaker 3: be with the truth of who I am at that moment.
Speaker 2: This is really what this work is. I mean, you
Speaker 2: have one of your signature taglines is thank you for
Speaker 2: giving me a moment of your life to talk about
Speaker 2: the end of yours. I might have just butchered that
Speaker 2: close enough, close enough, okay, but I love what you
Speaker 2: just said there about the conversations that we have at
Speaker 2: the bedside when somebody is dying, or when we know
Speaker 2: they're dying, or we're talking about our own mortality. Like
Speaker 2: those skill sets transfer to the rest of life. One
Speaker 2: of the things that bugs me about grief work is
Speaker 2: we think it's silo right, these are only conversations you
Speaker 2: need to have when something terrible has happened. One of
Speaker 2: the things that I love about you is that you
Speaker 2: don't silo this stuff. On PBS News Hour, you said,
Speaker 2: I really struggle with why we're not talking about death
Speaker 2: culturally and societally, because it seems to me the most
Speaker 2: enriching conversation we could have.
Speaker 3: Death touches every aspect of society, every aspect of our lives.
Speaker 1: It's present with us all the time.
Speaker 3: It's not just when somebody's body is starting to not
Speaker 3: respond to treatment anymore. It's everywhere regularly, and when I
Speaker 3: can see, I think when I can see death in
Speaker 3: the living, it.
Speaker 1: Amplifies the living. You know.
Speaker 3: When I can see that my body one day won't
Speaker 3: have access to delicious food, I want to eat the
Speaker 3: delicious food right now. When I'm aware that because of
Speaker 3: my death, I won't be able to do my work anymore, well,
Speaker 3: it drives me to want to do the work as
Speaker 3: completely as I can right now. This is not in
Speaker 3: favor of hustle culture, but about being true with what
Speaker 3: it is that I want to put out and what
Speaker 3: I want to do. Death constantly highlights my life over
Speaker 3: and over and over again, and when I let it,
Speaker 3: it magnifies it.
Speaker 2: I think it gives us an opportunity to do kind
Speaker 2: of a constant value assessment. Yes, of what am I
Speaker 2: doing with this life?
Speaker 3: Yes, who I want to be, how I want to
Speaker 3: spend my time? What of me I'll leave behind. I'm
Speaker 3: constantly checking in with that while I'm living, because one
Speaker 3: day I'll die, and I want to make sure that
Speaker 3: while I'm here, I'm doing me as best as I can.
Speaker 3: I'm the only one who's going to have to contend
Speaker 3: with all the choices I made at my deathbed nobody else.
Speaker 2: This reminds me of so when my partner died accidental
Speaker 2: drowning of a thirty nine year old, perfectly healthy male,
Speaker 2: like that shook our community up, and I remember one
Speaker 2: of our friends coming to me and saying like, this
Speaker 2: is messed up. Like it's made me start thinking, like,
Speaker 2: you're supposed to live every day like it's your last.
Speaker 2: But honestly, that's a lot of pressure. Yeah, So when
Speaker 2: you start saying like keeping death in mind, thinking about
Speaker 2: this makes you really conscious of the choices that you
Speaker 2: make in your life. Is there a lot of pressure
Speaker 2: there to be like I can't have any days where
Speaker 2: I wish I had made different choices, Like is there
Speaker 2: pressure for you in that?
Speaker 1: No, it actually is very freeing.
Speaker 3: I think it's a stress reliever that I'm going to die,
Speaker 3: Like it makes the thing not seem so serious and
Speaker 3: so important anymore, And it gives me permission to take
Speaker 3: a nap, you know.
Speaker 1: I think one read on using death as.
Speaker 3: A motivator is go go go do doo doo, get
Speaker 3: everything right now when you can. But for me, it's
Speaker 3: also what type of life do I want to lead?
Speaker 3: And I want to lead a rested life. I want
Speaker 3: to take naps. I want to take my time, take
Speaker 3: a walk, lay in a hammock. I don't want to
Speaker 3: be producing and going and getting everything all the time.
Speaker 3: For me, it's not about gathering all the experiences. It's
Speaker 3: about experiencing the magic with what my life is right now.
Speaker 2: I love that distinction. I hadn't thought of that, that
Speaker 2: this idea that you're supposed to live each day like
Speaker 2: it's your last, is a product of hustle culture. Like
Speaker 2: what can I produce? What can I optimize? What can
Speaker 2: I make the best of because tomorrow I might die?
Speaker 3: Yeah, go get it, go do it, Go experience everything
Speaker 3: right now. And it's like, also slow down and take
Speaker 3: a deep breath in and marvel at the wonder it
Speaker 3: is that we bring in oxygen and we spin out
Speaker 3: carbon dioxide.
Speaker 1: What it's under magic?
Speaker 2: It totally is, And that is right.
Speaker 1: That's so exciting to me.
Speaker 3: I heard recently or I read it someplace, and I
Speaker 3: wish I could remember who I read this from, because
Speaker 3: it really just rocked my socks. Rather than living each
Speaker 3: day like the last, about living each day like the first.
Speaker 2: Ooh, right, that's fantastic. Yeah, that brings that, like that
Speaker 2: sense of wonder into things right back in the nineties,
Speaker 2: I mean, the book still exists. Is called Pronoia is
Speaker 2: the antiitude of paranoia.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: Pronoia is marveling at the precise wonder of the world. Right.
Speaker 2: The sun is the exact distance it needs to be
Speaker 2: to warm us without killing us. The chemical content of
Speaker 2: our air depending on where you live and how much
Speaker 2: pollution is happening. But like the chemical makeup of the
Speaker 2: air is exactly what our lungs need and our bodies need.
Speaker 2: Like that, that is wondrous. I love that live each
Speaker 2: day as if it was the first.
Speaker 1: That's magic.
Speaker 2: I love that. I use the phrase goodbye intensive professions
Speaker 2: without defining my terms here, but like, you spend so
Speaker 2: much time at the bedside at end of life, and
Speaker 2: also not at the bedside talking with people about their mortality,
Speaker 2: helping them explore what kind of life they want for
Speaker 2: themselves and what kind of death they want for themselves.
Speaker 2: You started out your sort of professional career as a lawyer, though, boh, yeah,
Speaker 2: I know it's a silly comparison between like what did
Speaker 2: the world look like as a lawyer versus what are
Speaker 2: the word world look like?
Speaker 1: Now?
Speaker 2: But because end of life is so in you and
Speaker 2: in your face and in your consciousness, Like, how has
Speaker 2: this work changed what you see in the world.
Speaker 3: Well, this work is it's created a I want to say,
Speaker 3: a new filter, not the absence of the one, but
Speaker 3: a new filter, because there's always one. And when I
Speaker 3: was practicing law, I was working at Legal Aids, So
Speaker 3: I wasn't working in the big corporate you know, doing
Speaker 3: the whole big thing, but rather doing work that other
Speaker 3: people found very meaningful.
Speaker 1: I did at the time.
Speaker 3: I've always wanted to live a life with service, and
Speaker 3: so I was doing that on some capacity. But what
Speaker 3: has happened now is that I see the world I think,
Speaker 3: for more of its wonder and awe for us being here.
Speaker 3: I also think that this work allows me to use
Speaker 3: more parts of who I actually am naturally, and so
Speaker 3: it's just a better fit. May not have been death itself,
Speaker 3: but whatever work I went into had to have me
Speaker 3: be at my optimum, where I can be in wonder
Speaker 3: about humankind and I can ask all the questions I
Speaker 3: want and be super nosy and not have to fill
Speaker 3: out too many forms for anybody and be really sensitive
Speaker 3: and have it be okay, and be a little weird
Speaker 3: and have it be okay. I value my weirdness and
Speaker 3: my lack of bored and my curiosity about humans humankind.
Speaker 2: So it sounds like, you know, doing this work almost
Speaker 2: lets you see this sounds so corny, but like, lets
Speaker 2: you see your correct place in the world, right, like
Speaker 2: that you see the world as a place that supports
Speaker 2: and encourages all of the parts of you. Yes, And
Speaker 2: it happens to be in a profession that a lot
Speaker 2: of people would run screaming from.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, it just happens to be.
Speaker 3: I think a lot of people mistake that my work
Speaker 3: is a thing that gives my life meaning. But in contrary,
Speaker 3: I think it's the way that the work in my
Speaker 3: life gives it meaning, you know what I mean? Like,
Speaker 3: I don't have meaning just because I do death work.
Speaker 3: But I think I have a creating meaning because I
Speaker 3: look at the world differently because I do death work.
Speaker 2: Interesting, we're such a meaning making culture, right, Like, oh,
Speaker 2: you do such meaningful work. But what I just heard
Speaker 2: you say is different than that.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm not a big fan of the meaning making
Speaker 3: out of the baseline.
Speaker 2: Right, Meaning making as a baseline for life is not helpful.
Speaker 3: No, it's so unfair, it's so hard. It makes people,
Speaker 3: I think, winners and losers somehow.
Speaker 2: How so well.
Speaker 3: Some people are like, oh my god, you work at
Speaker 3: so much meaning, Like I've won something.
Speaker 2: You unlocked the secrets of life by doing death work. Yeah.
Speaker 2: My problem with meaning is that it is completely prescribed
Speaker 2: by our filters and our experiences, and we often like
Speaker 2: ascribe meaning to others. Yeah, and that's problematic for me.
Speaker 2: Like you know, oh you had you had a dream
Speaker 2: about this, it means this, Or you know, I saw
Speaker 2: a white feather on the ground and that means that
Speaker 2: your mom is nearby? Like hello, can you not tell
Speaker 2: me what my symbols mean to me?
Speaker 3: Like?
Speaker 2: Meaning is just I think meaning is that that desire
Speaker 2: to put an order on something amorphous and living.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and try to make it make some sense. How
Speaker 3: can any of this make any sense? We're in a
Speaker 3: giant blue rock spitting through space. Yeah, none of it
Speaker 3: makes there's no sense. There's no sense to that. There's
Speaker 3: no sense to that.
Speaker 2: If you're going to make meaning, make your own right, Like,
Speaker 2: what is it that that feels meaningful to me. And
Speaker 2: this goes back to what we were talking about with
Speaker 2: like do you live each day as as if as
Speaker 2: if it were your last or as if it was
Speaker 2: the first? Like what does a meaningful life look like
Speaker 2: for you? And I feel like that question of what
Speaker 2: does a meaningful life look like for you is a
Speaker 2: lot of what you do when you are doing workshops
Speaker 2: and guiding people who are not actively at end of life,
Speaker 2: but they're exploring their immortality. Does that feel accurate?
Speaker 1: It is absolutely accurate.
Speaker 3: Help people like zoom out and look at their lives
Speaker 3: and figure out their values and their priorities for themselves,
Speaker 3: you know, not the ones that we've been told or given,
Speaker 3: but what actually matters to me, and then support folks
Speaker 3: as they try to figure out how to help their
Speaker 3: lives match up as closely as possible, because it's not
Speaker 3: possible for most to do it exactly the way that
Speaker 3: they want. We have a bunch of responsibilities that must
Speaker 3: get taken care of, and then we have questions about
Speaker 3: privilege and access. But to the extent that we can,
Speaker 3: we could.
Speaker 2: Hey, before we get back to this week's guest, I
Speaker 2: want to talk with you about exploring your losses through writing.
Speaker 2: There are lots of grief writing workshops out there with
Speaker 2: prompts like tell us about the funeral, that sort of thing.
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Speaker 2: get you into your heart and into your own actual story. Now,
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Speaker 2: you hear your own voice, and that is incredibly powerful.
Speaker 2: You can read all about the Writing your Grief Course
Speaker 2: at Refuge in Grief dot Com backslash wyg. That is
Speaker 2: WYG for Writing your Grief. You can see a sample
Speaker 2: prompt from the course and get writing your own words
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Speaker 2: backslash wyg, or you can find the link in the
Speaker 2: show notes. Do you think that exploring your own mortality
Speaker 2: will make dying suck less? No? Why not?
Speaker 3: I don't think at a baseline rule. I used to
Speaker 3: romanticize it and think that it would. But you know,
Speaker 3: even with all this rob deathtalk I do, I might
Speaker 3: go kicking and screaming it might be my turn and.
Speaker 1: Be like, oh, I'm not ready.
Speaker 3: I'm doing my best right now to be in my
Speaker 3: life so that when that time comes, I can be like,
Speaker 3: all right, I did it, but who knows?
Speaker 1: Who knows?
Speaker 3: I think I have value for today, It's not necessarily
Speaker 3: value for the future.
Speaker 2: You know, Matt and I talked a lot about death
Speaker 2: and end of life. He was very much into meditation
Speaker 2: and all of these things and awareness and the ephemeral
Speaker 2: nature of life. And I remember at his funeral people
Speaker 2: actually said he was so friendly with death. I know
Speaker 2: he went gently, and I was like, pitch, I was there,
Speaker 2: he did not go gently. Like, being friendly with death
Speaker 2: does not mean you're psyched about it. I think this
Speaker 2: gets really confusing. Like you and I, you definitely work
Speaker 2: in the death positivity space, and I'm sort of a
Speaker 2: death positive field adjacent here. But being friendly was with
Speaker 2: death does not protect you from grief.
Speaker 1: No.
Speaker 3: I think being friendly with death means that you can
Speaker 3: acknowledge grief. Perhaps I can identify when I'm grieving when
Speaker 3: maybe previously I wasn't capable of. But I'm gonna have
Speaker 3: a hard time when my parents die, when my turn
Speaker 3: is coming, when my partner's turn is coming, when anybody
Speaker 3: in my life's turn is coming.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, shit, it's gonna stop. And I think that's okay.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's the nature of this work, right,
Speaker 2: Like we don't say all of these goodbyes to make
Speaker 2: goodbyes not hurt us. Like we say all of these
Speaker 2: goodbyes so that we're okay with being hurt. Yeah, Like
Speaker 2: we know how to care for ourselves and care for
Speaker 2: each other and identify it and know that saying goodbye
Speaker 2: is fucking painful.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's really hard.
Speaker 3: Something else I've been really playing with lately is along
Speaker 3: the same vein, where how much of my practice, of
Speaker 3: any practice I do for today as opposed to putting
Speaker 3: in the bank for later. And I'm really trying to
Speaker 3: stick with the practices that I do because they have
Speaker 3: value right now now. First of all, I don't know
Speaker 3: that I have a later and next, Like, why not
Speaker 3: for today? You know this is what I have right now.
Speaker 3: Let me be with it right now, as opposed to
Speaker 3: meditate because it's going to give me something, or think
Speaker 3: about my death because I'm going to get something. Yes,
Speaker 3: I want to prepare for my death now because it
Speaker 3: will eventually make it a little easier on my loved ones.
Speaker 3: But I also get value out of doing it right now.
Speaker 2: I love that you brought up that sort of transactional nature,
Speaker 2: like we do this stuff so that something in the
Speaker 2: future doesn't harm us. And really like I feel like
Speaker 2: you and I are like joining hands and saying no,
Speaker 2: like let the world hurt you, yeah, because it is
Speaker 2: hurting you, And can we make space for that and
Speaker 2: learn how to care for ourselves and care for each
Speaker 2: other and come together in the pain of this world
Speaker 2: instead of pretending that there's something we can do to
Speaker 2: protect ourselves from.
Speaker 3: It, yeah, or like things that we should do to
Speaker 3: clar ourselves out of it.
Speaker 1: But if we could just be with it.
Speaker 3: You know, a big part of my work I think
Speaker 3: there's a misconception death doulah's jobs or to help people
Speaker 3: get over their fear of death. I might here trying
Speaker 3: to be like, oh, you know, here's all the things
Speaker 3: that you can do steps one through fifteen to get
Speaker 3: over your fear of death, or saw them happen like
Speaker 3: that and next that doesn't do anybody, any favors, you know, like,
Speaker 3: I'm just here to be with people where they are,
Speaker 3: to meet them in the trench, to sit alongside with them,
Speaker 3: to bear witness to their pain, to acknowledge what is
Speaker 3: that they're going through. And if they want to start
Speaker 3: working things to move on or get through, then I'll
Speaker 3: be there with them.
Speaker 1: But what is really moving on when it comes to grief.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's a really good question. I'm going
Speaker 2: to bring up a small sore spot for me, not
Speaker 2: with your work, but with end of life work in general.
Speaker 2: End of life usually gets lumped in with grief, like
Speaker 2: in training programs, in counseling school and like all of
Speaker 2: these things, you get like one in the course of
Speaker 2: an entire master's program in counseling or in social work,
Speaker 2: you get like one day or maybe a half a
Speaker 2: day in death and dying, which is not enough time,
Speaker 2: and they lump grief in with that. And if you
Speaker 2: go to a physical bookstore, you will support your independent bookstores,
Speaker 2: people go visit them. But if you go to a bookstore,
Speaker 2: you'll see that the grief books are in the very
Speaker 2: tiny death and dying section. And you go to an
Speaker 2: end of life conference, and there's like one speaker on grief,
Speaker 2: and the speaker on grief is talking about getting your
Speaker 2: memorial rituals correct. Right, like I rant on this stuff
Speaker 2: that like, death and grief are not the same thing.
Speaker 2: They are cousins, they are not the same thing. I
Speaker 2: love the way that you talk about grief because, like
Speaker 2: I mean, am I just like am I splitting hairs here?
Speaker 2: I guess this is my question. End of life and
Speaker 2: grief are related. But I feel like people think that
Speaker 2: if they just get the funeral correct, if they just
Speaker 2: get their rituals correct, if they just make the bright
Speaker 2: art project very soon after their person dies, then again
Speaker 2: we come back to that transactional thing of if I
Speaker 2: get my rituals correct, this won't hurt. Have you seen that?
Speaker 2: Am I the only one seeing that? Is that just
Speaker 2: my personal pusiness? What's happening here?
Speaker 1: I see it all the time.
Speaker 3: In our end of life training course, there is a
Speaker 3: module on grief, and the languaging about it is the
Speaker 3: two are inexorably linked. They're married as far as I
Speaker 3: see it, however, it's an open marriage. Everything is Paul,
Speaker 3: everything is Paul, everything is queer, and grief gets to
Speaker 3: go and play with all the other partners it wants to. Now,
Speaker 3: death is pretty tied to grief, I think, but there's
Speaker 3: so many other ways that grief shows up. And I
Speaker 3: find that people do often try to fast track the
Speaker 3: grief after death in an effort to try to get
Speaker 3: over and move on or something of the sort, but
Speaker 3: also don't take time to think about the full spectrum
Speaker 3: of the grieving that they're doing, all the different things
Speaker 3: that they're grieving in the process. And I love being
Speaker 3: able to highlight that and call attention to it. You know,
Speaker 3: so many things died when somebody dies, and the grief
Speaker 3: shows up in so many ways, and let's like acknowledge
Speaker 3: the loss of the sexual relationship, all of it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, all of it. You've said that an element of
Speaker 2: the grieving process is the reidentification of self. Yeah, what
Speaker 2: do you mean by that?
Speaker 3: I'm going to take it away from death for a
Speaker 3: second to do it make it land a little bit easier.
Speaker 3: But I have been an avid runner for most of
Speaker 3: my adult life, and a few years back my knees
Speaker 3: started really hurting, and I'd have the pin in the
Speaker 3: middle of the night and would hurts so bad and
Speaker 3: I'd be aching afterward, and I was like, God, I
Speaker 3: got to stop doing this, you know, I have to
Speaker 3: stop doing this. I have been grieving it ever since.
Speaker 3: And the reidentification is, am I still a runner if
Speaker 3: I'm not running? Because I've identified myself as a runner
Speaker 3: for so long. So I have to come up with
Speaker 3: a new definition and find a new way to identify
Speaker 3: myself out there in the world.
Speaker 1: And it's painful.
Speaker 3: And every time I think we go through a shift
Speaker 3: in identity, there's a grief that's occurring, Like when we
Speaker 3: go from maiden to mother, even though we think of
Speaker 3: it as a happy thing out there in the world,
Speaker 3: but holy shit, there's a lot of grief in that
Speaker 3: we go from single to engaged.
Speaker 1: Massive grief.
Speaker 3: Massive grief in that every time that we have to
Speaker 3: think of ourselves differently out there in the world, we're
Speaker 3: leaving something behind. It may not look like a loss,
Speaker 3: but there is a loss occurring, even if we're moving
Speaker 3: forward into something beautiful.
Speaker 2: Yes, I've been talking about this so much lately. I
Speaker 2: did a lecture a couple weeks ago about the everyday
Speaker 2: grief that we don't call grief, and in my sort
Speaker 2: of list of things that we can grieve. I made
Speaker 2: what I thought was just like a throwaway statement. I said,
Speaker 2: the grief of getting what you've always wanted, right, And
Speaker 2: it was just like in my list of things. And
Speaker 2: then like there's time at the end for Q and
Speaker 2: A and that we're going through the Q and A
Speaker 2: and people are like, what do you mean the grief
Speaker 2: of getting what you've always wanted? And you just described
Speaker 2: it so perfectly and so beautifully, Like with every yes,
Speaker 2: there's a noah, and with every no there is grief.
Speaker 2: Just in the same way that our deaths are always
Speaker 2: is walking beside us and inside us. Grief is always
Speaker 2: walking beside us and inside us. And that is not wrong. Yeah,
Speaker 2: all of this work, like all of this work is
Speaker 2: about like can we just see and acknowledge the fullness
Speaker 2: of all of this life?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Can we just be human? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Like what is wrong with just being human?
Speaker 3: To have pain, to feel sorrow, to feel disappointed, to
Speaker 3: be insecure, feel disappointment, failure, Like, can we just be human?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 3: You know, the full spectrum, not just like the happy,
Speaker 3: giddy and getting everything I want. My body's banking, but
Speaker 3: I have cellulite on my arms and I'm still dealing
Speaker 3: with internal life fatphobia, human too, like the full spectrum
Speaker 3: of it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, showing up for that and learning the skills that
Speaker 2: we need for that. People ask me, like, how do
Speaker 2: you survive grief? And I'm like, you survive grief by
Speaker 2: building communities, building a community with yourself and community with
Speaker 2: others that allows you to feel exactly how you feel
Speaker 2: and feel seen and supported in it. Like, that's how
Speaker 2: you survive grief. And how do we practice that stuff?
Speaker 2: How do we build that stuff? We do it by
Speaker 2: saying exactly what you just said, like, can you be
Speaker 2: fully human to yourself in your day to day life?
Speaker 2: Can you be fully human with the people you love
Speaker 2: and that you choose around you? Like, we build this
Speaker 2: stuff every single day. It's not break this box in
Speaker 2: case of emergency, right, it is do this for today,
Speaker 2: for right now, for the body and the being you
Speaker 2: are in this life, and in case you need it later.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, And I think that some of that being with
Speaker 3: that consistently is what turns out to be a practice
Speaker 3: that can support at the end of light. Yeah, because
Speaker 3: I'm doing it daily. It's like a well worn groove
Speaker 3: in my body and my heart. And if when I
Speaker 3: get to the end of my life, if I am
Speaker 3: having a hard time with what's going on, if I've
Speaker 3: practiced plenty before I get there, then maybe I can
Speaker 3: also say, hey, that's hurts, or hey, I'm really uncomfortable,
Speaker 3: or I'm scared, or I don't want to right now
Speaker 3: or whatever, and I'm just not fighting against it anymore
Speaker 3: because I've given myself permission.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you're not trying to learn a new relational skill. Yes,
Speaker 2: in a moment when you're right now needs your attention, honey.
Speaker 3: And there's so much to be doing at the end
Speaker 3: of life, let alone be also trying to figure out
Speaker 3: how to give myself permission to feel things.
Speaker 2: Who yeah, yeah, that's like, don't do that to yourself.
Speaker 2: And also like trying to learn the communication skills you
Speaker 2: need to advocate for yourself, to say what you need
Speaker 2: to ask, the card questions, like all of that stuff.
Speaker 2: It gets infinitely easier if those communications, if those kinds
Speaker 2: of talks aren't.
Speaker 1: New for you, absolutely, Yeah.
Speaker 2: Like diving into goodbyes is a beautiful, beautiful thing. I
Speaker 2: feel like we could talk for nineteen thousand hours, and
Speaker 2: I hope that we get to do that more. But
Speaker 2: I want to make sure that we have time to
Speaker 2: ask you the question that I ask everybody. You spend
Speaker 2: so much of your time inside things that a lot
Speaker 2: of people work very hard to avoid. We already know
Speaker 2: that this work is full of joy, because it is.
Speaker 2: But I'm also really curious about hope. You spend so
Speaker 2: much time saying goodbye, so knowing what you know and
Speaker 2: living what you've lived and what you live. What does
Speaker 2: hope look like for you?
Speaker 1: It feels like I'm going to get disappointed.
Speaker 3: I want to be as present with today and what
Speaker 3: I've got as possible. When I am hoping for something,
Speaker 3: when I'm reaching out there for something else, what I
Speaker 3: find is that I'm living out of relationship with what
Speaker 3: is because I want different or better. And when I
Speaker 3: can just be with what is, that's a far more comfortable, well,
Speaker 3: it's a far more present place to be. It might
Speaker 3: be harder, but it's a for me. It's a better
Speaker 3: place to be than reaching for something that might not be,
Speaker 3: because then the pain that comes along with it. I
Speaker 3: think hope at the end of life can be a
Speaker 3: really dangerous game. People hope for a cure, they hope
Speaker 3: for a miracle, They hope to get better. When they don't,
Speaker 3: then there's a big let down as opposed to hoping
Speaker 3: you make it to see your grandson graduate from high school,
Speaker 3: you know, keeping the hope realistic.
Speaker 1: For lack of a better way to put.
Speaker 3: It, so, hope often leads to disappointment and sadness and
Speaker 3: supporting folks as they think through what they hope for
Speaker 3: and reconcile what they actually got is challenging, but it's
Speaker 3: a big part of the work that we're doing.
Speaker 2: I think hope is so complicated, honey, it's so complicated,
Speaker 2: Like it shows up so clearly at end of life
Speaker 2: with like, Okay, we don't have time to get into
Speaker 2: this one and bring it up and leave it here anyway.
Speaker 2: Is like when you are facing a terminal diagnosis and
Speaker 2: you want to not allow quote unquote failure, allowed death
Speaker 2: to be a possibility because you want to fight, right
Speaker 2: like that? For some people, is hope like that machinery
Speaker 2: that drives let me see if I can fight for myself.
Speaker 2: Right like that, there's hope in that. I've also seen
Speaker 2: a lot of people miss the territory of end of
Speaker 2: life because they are holding on to a hope that
Speaker 2: it gets better. Yeah right, I hope that I am
Speaker 2: going to have like a last minute it's miracle, miracle.
Speaker 2: I feel like hope in that instance can really rob
Speaker 2: you of something beautiful.
Speaker 3: I agree one hundred percent. I'll just tell you a
Speaker 3: very quick story. I think it's actually too funny. My sister,
Speaker 3: my older sisters with Saint John, my brother in law, Peter,
Speaker 3: Saint John, and getting close to the end of his life.
Speaker 3: They had a lot of hope, a lot of hope
Speaker 3: that he would get better, and that didn't happen. He
Speaker 3: died and at some point we were sitting there is
Speaker 3: not long after the audacity of hope came out and
Speaker 3: she said, you know what, I'm going to write a
Speaker 3: book and I'm going to call it the Fucacity of Hope.
Speaker 3: That's not what a book will eventually called, but that
Speaker 3: would have been a good one, the fcacity of.
Speaker 1: Hope, because it fuck them up.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I love that. I think that's a great subtitle,
Speaker 2: or like the secret title, the secret title for a
Speaker 2: book that's also good marketing. This book has a secret title,
Speaker 2: Join this club to find out what it is.
Speaker 1: All right?
Speaker 2: It is so fitting that we end this conversation about
Speaker 2: end of life and somewhat difficult topics cracking up because
Speaker 2: this is who we are and this is how we
Speaker 2: show up. I am so glad that we finally got
Speaker 2: a chance to meet and spend time together, and I
Speaker 2: hope it is the first of many. And I am
Speaker 2: so glad that you are here in this world me too, Megan.
Speaker 2: I'm going to link to your website and your Insta
Speaker 2: and all of those things in the show notes. But
Speaker 2: is there anything else that you want people to know
Speaker 2: or where they should find you or where they should
Speaker 2: not find you because you are out in a hammock
Speaker 2: somewhere having a beautiful moment.
Speaker 3: Yeah, the website's a great place to find me and us,
Speaker 3: I'll say us, because I'm not pushing this thing by myself,
Speaker 3: but I do plan to be in a hammock off
Speaker 3: the grid.
Speaker 1: My phones can be inside the house, so good luck.
Speaker 2: But they can reach your team at the website, which's
Speaker 2: not leaving y'all alone at end of life. That will
Speaker 2: never ever happen. All right, everybody, stay tuned. I will
Speaker 2: be back with your questions to carry with you right
Speaker 2: after this break. Each week I leave you with some
Speaker 2: questions to carry with you until we meet again. This
Speaker 2: conversation was so much fun. Before we started recording the
Speaker 2: actual episode, Alu and I spent like over half an
Speaker 2: hour just hanging out talking about writing and work and
Speaker 2: the work around the actual work that we do, like
Speaker 2: the mechanics of doing the public facing work that we
Speaker 2: both do. At one point, aluis said, I just want
Speaker 2: to talk about death. You know, I don't don't want
Speaker 2: to live my life dealing with HR issues and tech platforms.
Speaker 2: And I felt so seen when we were talking about
Speaker 2: that stuff, the frustration, the fiddly bits that get in
Speaker 2: the way of the work that we really love to do.
Speaker 2: So from the episode itself, I loved the perspective Alua
Speaker 2: shared around meaning that her life doesn't have meaning because
Speaker 2: she does meaningful work. It has meaning or meaning is
Speaker 2: constantly created by what she takes from her work back
Speaker 2: out into the world. Right Like, one way of looking
Speaker 2: at a meaningful life is defined by your labor, your profession,
Speaker 2: your work. Another way to look at it is to
Speaker 2: center the fullness of your life and find meaning there.
Speaker 2: And there's a nuance and a subtlety there that I
Speaker 2: really really like. I am wondering more about it in
Speaker 2: my own life and I'm carrying it with me. So
Speaker 2: how about you? What's stuck with you from this conversation.
Speaker 2: Everyone's going to take something different from the show, but
Speaker 2: I do hope you've found something to hold on to.
Speaker 2: If you want to tell me how today's show felt
Speaker 2: for you, or you have thoughts on what we covered,
Speaker 2: let me know. Tag at Refuge and Grief on all
Speaker 2: social platforms so I can hear how this conversation affected you.
Speaker 2: You can follow the show at It's Okay Pod on
Speaker 2: TikTok and Refuge and Grief everywhere else. To see video
Speaker 2: clips from the show, use the hashtag It's Okay pod
Speaker 2: on all the platforms, so not only I can find
Speaker 2: you and my team can find you, but other people
Speaker 2: can too. Community building is important. None of us are
Speaker 2: entirely okay, and it's time we started talking about that together.
Speaker 2: It's okay that you're not okay. You're in good company.
Speaker 2: That's it for this week. Friends, Remember to subscribe to
Speaker 2: the show, share it with your friends, and leave a review.
Speaker 2: Reviews are super important. They make the show easier to find,
Speaker 2: It makes the show show up in search results a
Speaker 2: lot easier, and it also makes me happy to read them.
Speaker 2: I love to read your reviews. So wherever you find
Speaker 2: your podcast, leave a review, subscribe and share it with
Speaker 2: everyone you know want more on these topics. Look, grief
Speaker 2: is everywhere. As my dad says, daily life is full
Speaker 2: of everyday grief that we don't call grief. Learning how
Speaker 2: to talk about all that without cliches or platitudes or
Speaker 2: simplistic dismissive statements is an important skill for everyone. Whether
Speaker 2: you're trying to support a friend going through a hard time,
Speaker 2: or you work in the helping professions, get help to
Speaker 2: have those conversations with training's professional resources and my best
Speaker 2: selling book, It's Okay that You're Not Okay at Megandivine
Speaker 2: dot Co. It's Okay that You're Not Okay. The podcast
Speaker 2: is written and produced by me Megan Divine. Executive producer
Speaker 2: is Amy Brown, co produced by Elizabeth Fozzio, with logistical
Speaker 2: and social media support from Micah, Post production and editing
Speaker 2: by Houston Tilly. Music provided by wave Crush, and today's
Speaker 2: background noise provided by an overly caffeinated me wiggling around
Speaker 2: in a slightly squeaky chair