1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:03,320 Speaker 1: Long Shot is a production of McClatchy Studios and I 2 00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:10,720 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Previously on Return Men, it was Coote room 3 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:13,720 Speaker 1: capacity to come. We held a capathitor would and we 4 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:17,920 Speaker 1: had people on the house. The attorney said that nobody 5 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:22,960 Speaker 1: would top period. Not one person wanted to tap a back. 6 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:27,040 Speaker 1: Police people will know what to say to put fear 7 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:30,960 Speaker 1: to pick. It involves rates the mental state of the 8 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 1: person and a town that was scared to death to 9 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:37,360 Speaker 1: say anything. There are conspiracies in the world, and the 10 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:41,360 Speaker 1: Jim Crow South having a period about that conspiracy might 11 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:51,040 Speaker 1: not be wrong. In the course of researching this story, 12 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:54,160 Speaker 1: there was at least one key voice I hadn't really 13 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:57,960 Speaker 1: heard from. It was about the NFL player that committed 14 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:05,280 Speaker 1: suicide in Leicester, former Lancaster Police Chief Larry Lower. Records 15 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:08,399 Speaker 1: from the South Carolina State Law Enforcement Division show that 16 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:12,720 Speaker 1: Lancaster police handled the investigation into Jim's death themselves. We 17 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:20,440 Speaker 1: did lab work investigating an agency. We did independently investigate. 18 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:26,120 Speaker 1: The Lack of transparency from Lancaster authorities cost Jim's family 19 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:29,279 Speaker 1: closure and left an information vacuum that has been filled 20 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:33,000 Speaker 1: by conspiracy theories for nearly fifty years. They say he 21 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:38,760 Speaker 1: committed suicide, but basically, almost none of Lancaster's black residents 22 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:42,440 Speaker 1: I interviewed believe Jim died the way police said, including 23 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:44,880 Speaker 1: the only black person who served on the inquest panel. 24 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:46,920 Speaker 1: They want to say, if we have the police go 25 00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:49,160 Speaker 1: on the shot itself, but I don't believe this. Ship 26 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 1: Lower now lives in Georgia and until recently served on 27 00:01:54,880 --> 00:02:01,560 Speaker 1: a local school board. He basically hung up on me 28 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:04,800 Speaker 1: when I tried to reach him by phone. So in 29 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:09,919 Speaker 1: the summer I went to him. I needed to understand 30 00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:13,040 Speaker 1: why Lancaster police took the actions they did and where 31 00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:20,320 Speaker 1: Jim's family was supposed to go from here, Mr from 32 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:23,880 Speaker 1: the Herald McClatchy Studios and I Heart Radio. This is 33 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:27,600 Speaker 1: return man. I'm Brett McCormick, and this is Part seven 34 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:42,040 Speaker 1: Conspiracy Theories Number three. Richard Berry loving and all of 35 00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:47,639 Speaker 1: Talance versus Virginia. Jim was a ladies man, no doubt, 36 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 1: that was one habit he never hid. Well, they're nothing 37 00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:55,280 Speaker 1: man that I could tell you about what other than 38 00:02:55,440 --> 00:03:00,200 Speaker 1: he just loved one. Mr Chief Justice made please barn, 39 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:04,120 Speaker 1: I am Bernards Cohen. Virginia spans here today and in 40 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:07,800 Speaker 1: this Loving case for the first time tried to find 41 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:12,600 Speaker 1: a justification other than white racial supremacy for the existence 42 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:16,480 Speaker 1: of its statute. Jim died five years after the Loving v. 43 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:21,440 Speaker 1: Virginia Supreme Court case struck down interracial marriage bands nationwide. 44 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:25,960 Speaker 1: The state is ignoring the right of Richard and Mildred 45 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 1: Loving to wake up in the morning or to go 46 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:31,480 Speaker 1: to sleep at night knowing that the shirt will not 47 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:33,960 Speaker 1: be knocking on their door or shining a light in 48 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:38,680 Speaker 1: their face in the privacy of their bedroom for illicit cohabitation. 49 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 1: But South Carolina has been on interracial marriage officially lasted 50 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 1: until only Alabama's band lasted longer. Why he was in 51 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 1: the pros and all of that, you know wied were 52 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 1: wired and black sar black and wherever you to Butcher 53 00:03:57,080 --> 00:04:02,000 Speaker 1: then Matt Jim's brother elderly and Elroy's wife Linda. He 54 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 1: was dating the chief Plaice his daughter during that Hans Okay, 55 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 1: the guy who's come we think that what got involved 56 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 1: with his door? That is the one that shot Butch. 57 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:19,240 Speaker 1: Do you know her name? No? I was told repeatedly 58 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:22,600 Speaker 1: that Jim was involved with one of Red Henson's daughters. 59 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:26,000 Speaker 1: They're white and the theory is that Jim, a black man, 60 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 1: somehow died in the police station because of that. That's 61 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:32,400 Speaker 1: that's that's that was what we were saying. Something by 62 00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 1: the daughter. I didn't even know the young lady. Floyd 63 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:38,520 Speaker 1: White was one of Jim's high school coaches, and I 64 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:43,320 Speaker 1: can imagine that, you know, football player nationwide stuff black 65 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:46,200 Speaker 1: that you know, he come back home. You know what 66 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:49,279 Speaker 1: the at home song, there's not gonna louder, They're not 67 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:52,960 Speaker 1: gonna I heard some version of this theory many different 68 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:57,600 Speaker 1: times over the past three years. Did not like to 69 00:04:57,600 --> 00:05:01,040 Speaker 1: think that he's white. Was driving the round in the 70 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:05,680 Speaker 1: car where Jim Lucia Duck Lancaster native Michael Bogan attended 71 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:08,479 Speaker 1: Bar Street School a few years after Duncan, and for 72 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:13,440 Speaker 1: whatever reason, Jim Duncan received a message to come to 73 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:18,599 Speaker 1: the police department. After he gave up to police department, 74 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:23,360 Speaker 1: Jim Duncan was, na, did you know Red Hinson's daughter? 75 00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:25,600 Speaker 1: I mean, did you know her name? I did not 76 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:30,560 Speaker 1: know her name mattered if I never seen her. You 77 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:33,520 Speaker 1: showed me a picture for that, now, I cook that 78 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:38,200 Speaker 1: to you one way. Then on the gift taxi story, okay, 79 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:42,720 Speaker 1: no one could identify which daughter Jim might have been 80 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:46,479 Speaker 1: involved with, and as conspiracy theories go, it combines a 81 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:50,680 Speaker 1: few familiar threads. It involves an overprotective father, which has 82 00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:53,960 Speaker 1: been a dramatic staple forever. But at the same time, 83 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:57,960 Speaker 1: a killing like that was hardly without precedent. As just 84 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:01,240 Speaker 1: one example during Jim's lifetime, the alleged crime of a 85 00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:04,200 Speaker 1: black man flirting with a white woman was exactly what 86 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:06,960 Speaker 1: led to the death of Emmett Till in Mississippi, one 87 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 1: of the most gruesome hate crimes of the twentieth century. 88 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:13,840 Speaker 1: My baby was taken from his uncle's home and my 89 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:17,239 Speaker 1: aunt's home, and I found out about at nine thirty 90 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:22,320 Speaker 1: Sunday morning. This is tills mother, Mami Bradley, speaking to reporters. 91 00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:25,240 Speaker 1: At the time, I thought it was sufficient to mind 92 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:29,080 Speaker 1: my own business. I didn't realize that everything was mad business. 93 00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:31,080 Speaker 1: That's the way the people are treated all over the earth. 94 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:35,479 Speaker 1: Was my business. Now I know it, and unless we 95 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 1: can get enforceable love, we might as well just forget everything. 96 00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:49,480 Speaker 1: Lieutenant Henson had three daughters. I work at the newspaper 97 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:53,119 Speaker 1: in Rocky Hill, South Carolina. Was your dad, Russell Henson, 98 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:57,359 Speaker 1: police officer from Micaster. Darlene Hopkins is the youngest of 99 00:06:57,400 --> 00:07:00,479 Speaker 1: those three daughters. Through all the reading I've been doing, 100 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:03,000 Speaker 1: I haven't found very much information about your dad, and 101 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:06,160 Speaker 1: so I just was trying to find out more about him, 102 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:08,680 Speaker 1: and I had come across your name in his obituary. 103 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 1: And she declined to appear in this podcast, but she 104 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:14,280 Speaker 1: told me she wasn't living in Lancaster when Jim died. 105 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 1: In our call, she said I might get more information 106 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:21,240 Speaker 1: from her older sister who was in town when it happened. Okay, 107 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 1: so you weren't living in Lancaster then, got you? Okay. 108 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:29,520 Speaker 1: Barbara Ferguson was Henson's middle daughter. I just wanted to 109 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:31,720 Speaker 1: ask where did you live in Leicaster when it happened. 110 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:34,320 Speaker 1: She spoke to me briefly from her home not far 111 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 1: from Lancaster, though she too declined to lend her voice 112 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:40,720 Speaker 1: to this podcast. Ferguson didn't understand why I would be 113 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:44,400 Speaker 1: looking into the story at all. Uh, just because the 114 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:48,240 Speaker 1: NFL players family still has like a lot of, you know, 115 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:51,160 Speaker 1: in their opinion, unanswered questions about it, and you know, 116 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:53,840 Speaker 1: I think it has a lot of similarities to things 117 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:55,760 Speaker 1: that are going on now. You know, it's an interesting 118 00:07:55,800 --> 00:08:00,520 Speaker 1: story to to look at in that regard. Forerguson and 119 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:03,680 Speaker 1: I spoke for about fifteen minutes. She told me her 120 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:07,200 Speaker 1: father rarely talked about Jim's death or anything that happened 121 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:10,200 Speaker 1: on the job. For the most part, I think she 122 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:12,120 Speaker 1: was about as friendly as any of us might be 123 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 1: if a reporter called out of the blue basically wondering 124 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:18,400 Speaker 1: if her father had been involved in a murder. I mean, 125 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 1: I just think they think it was out of character 126 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:24,360 Speaker 1: for their relative to have killed himself, So, you know, 127 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 1: I think that's more of the issue than anything. They 128 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:31,040 Speaker 1: don't really have exactly an idea of what else would 129 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:35,000 Speaker 1: have happened. Ferguson told me that bywo she was in 130 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:37,959 Speaker 1: her early thirties and that her sister's recollections were a 131 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:41,240 Speaker 1: little off. She said that when Jim died, she had 132 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:44,079 Speaker 1: already moved away from Lancaster with her husband, and they 133 00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 1: already had a family of their own. Ferguson says she'd 134 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:49,280 Speaker 1: never even heard of Jim Duncan before seeing the news 135 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:52,040 Speaker 1: about his death, and and honestly I didn't I didn't 136 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:53,960 Speaker 1: think you would really know much about it. I was 137 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 1: more wanting to know more about your dad, and I 138 00:08:57,360 --> 00:08:59,199 Speaker 1: mean just what he was like, or did he have 139 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:02,320 Speaker 1: a nickname or whatever, you know, making more of a 140 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:04,880 Speaker 1: person instead of just the guy whose gun was used. 141 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:11,360 Speaker 1: The lieutenant was a World War Two Navy veteran and 142 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:14,959 Speaker 1: had been a deacon at his local Baptist church by 143 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:17,000 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy two. He'd been a member of that local 144 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:21,000 Speaker 1: police department for almost twenty years. No one I spoke 145 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:24,120 Speaker 1: with knew of any incriminating behavior by Henson, and I 146 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:27,200 Speaker 1: found no evidence that he had an adversarial relationship with 147 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:31,480 Speaker 1: Jim or people of color in general. So one of 148 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:34,480 Speaker 1: the conspiracies that I was told by some people I 149 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:37,920 Speaker 1: had talked to was that he had a reputation in 150 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:43,640 Speaker 1: Lancaster as somebody that talked to white women a lot, 151 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:47,680 Speaker 1: because I think that there was the the stretch or 152 00:09:47,679 --> 00:09:50,840 Speaker 1: the leap, maybe that his death in the police station 153 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:54,000 Speaker 1: had something to do with talking to white women or 154 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:56,320 Speaker 1: something like that. I think I think that was Ferguson 155 00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:58,760 Speaker 1: told me our conversation was the first time she'd ever 156 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 1: heard that theory, and that it wasn't worth a second thought. 157 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:05,920 Speaker 1: She added that their other sister, Margaret, is now deceased. 158 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 1: Margaret was alive at the time Jim died, but she 159 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 1: was also living out of state, so, according to Ferguson, 160 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:16,280 Speaker 1: none of Henson's daughters knew Jim, and his death didn't 161 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:21,480 Speaker 1: really impact them. Not long after Jim's death, Henson resigned 162 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:25,960 Speaker 1: from the Lancaster Police Department without announcing future plans. His 163 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:28,360 Speaker 1: obituary said he went on to become police chief in 164 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:31,720 Speaker 1: nearby page Land, where Jim and Elroy had once hustled pool. 165 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:36,040 Speaker 1: When he left Lancaster, Chief Lauer said of him, quote, 166 00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:39,120 Speaker 1: He's an excellent officer, and I certainly wish him the 167 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:45,760 Speaker 1: best of luck in his new work. After my conversations 168 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 1: with Henson's daughters, I can't rule anything out. It's possible 169 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:52,640 Speaker 1: Jim had been involved romantically with a white woman, but 170 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:55,920 Speaker 1: at the time, rural South Carolina was very different from 171 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:59,720 Speaker 1: the interconnected world of today. I can believe Henson's daughters 172 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:01,760 Speaker 1: might out have even heard of Jim during his life, 173 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:04,439 Speaker 1: and I feel confident they weren't involved with Jim or 174 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:07,760 Speaker 1: in any way connected to his death. Okay, well, I 175 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 1: really appreciate you um talking to me, though I know 176 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:11,800 Speaker 1: it's sort of a weird thing to get a call 177 00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:14,680 Speaker 1: out of the blue about so. But I also have 178 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:17,520 Speaker 1: to wonder if the incident might have affected Henson and 179 00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:21,800 Speaker 1: his family more than Ferguson claimed. Right before we hung up, 180 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:26,560 Speaker 1: she insisted, quote, some things are better left alone. It 181 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:33,000 Speaker 1: was just not that big a deal. We'll be back 182 00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:41,080 Speaker 1: in a moment. I don't think Ferguson is alone in 183 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:44,960 Speaker 1: that assessment. For many people in Lancashire at the time, 184 00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:48,280 Speaker 1: at least many white people, it was just not that 185 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:51,160 Speaker 1: big a deal for a black man to allegedly walk 186 00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:54,319 Speaker 1: into his hometown police station and without saying a word, 187 00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:57,880 Speaker 1: rip a gun from lieutenants Holster and shoot himself in 188 00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:03,440 Speaker 1: the head. It made me wonder if I'd been asking 189 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:07,800 Speaker 1: the wrong question in a small roast lap the southern town. 190 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:10,680 Speaker 1: What if there wasn't any sort of cause and effect 191 00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:14,760 Speaker 1: that makes sense here? Racism was abundant, but it was 192 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:21,040 Speaker 1: just right right on her. From all my research into 193 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:24,880 Speaker 1: Jim's life, my overwriting impression of race relations in nineteen 194 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:28,680 Speaker 1: sixties Lancaster isn't so much a clear list of racist events. 195 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:32,680 Speaker 1: Mostly it's a crushing sense of apathy by white people. 196 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:37,640 Speaker 1: That's not an event that's a social structure in which 197 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:42,200 Speaker 1: every event unfolds. I thought back to something Alice told 198 00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:47,880 Speaker 1: me about her late husband. He had a favorite poem. Mhmm. Interesting. 199 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:51,079 Speaker 1: She never knew what it was called or where he'd 200 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:54,719 Speaker 1: found it, but Jim would often repeat the lines. Let 201 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:58,000 Speaker 1: others cheer the winning man. There's one I hold worthwhile 202 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:01,960 Speaker 1: tis he who does the best he can then loses 203 00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:05,320 Speaker 1: with a smile. Is that from something here? Can you 204 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:07,040 Speaker 1: say it again? Have to look it up and see 205 00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 1: we're being from that presumption of losing even smiling as 206 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:15,200 Speaker 1: it happens. Fit a dynamic that USC law professor Seth 207 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:20,080 Speaker 1: Stowton has studied that idea of how we interact with people. 208 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:25,880 Speaker 1: It depends on our perception of their social status. And 209 00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:30,840 Speaker 1: in the sixties and seventies, a black man had I 210 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 1: think it is fair to say significantly less social status, 211 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:39,680 Speaker 1: certainly compared to a police officer. At the time, that 212 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:42,360 Speaker 1: was an especially fragile state of affairs in a place 213 00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:47,360 Speaker 1: like Lancaster. We're constantly making those judgments, and we're using 214 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:51,360 Speaker 1: them to adjust how much deference we give the other 215 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:55,000 Speaker 1: person and how much difference we expect them to give us. 216 00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:58,840 Speaker 1: There are some problems that are particularly acute in the 217 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:03,480 Speaker 1: policing context. When both people expect more deference than the 218 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:07,240 Speaker 1: other one is giving them. Social psychologists call this an 219 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 1: asymmetric deference norm. The officer might say, this person should 220 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:16,960 Speaker 1: defer to me because I am the authority. The other 221 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:21,200 Speaker 1: person might say, the officer should defer to me in 222 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:26,280 Speaker 1: at least some respect because I am a taxpayer, or 223 00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:30,640 Speaker 1: something like that. That's one thing I've always found so 224 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:34,040 Speaker 1: interesting about Jim's returned to Lancaster. In those theories about 225 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 1: Henton's daughters, well and good, it is ming a duncan 226 00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:41,040 Speaker 1: a real breath, not because I've seen anything to suggest 227 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:43,840 Speaker 1: they were connected to Jim, but because the belief they 228 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:46,440 Speaker 1: could have been was its own evidence that Jim no 229 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:50,680 Speaker 1: longer fit with Lancaster's deference norms. Well, we know that 230 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:53,560 Speaker 1: they're back in town as force Butcher I didn't see 231 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:56,160 Speaker 1: him daily, but we knew he was in town when 232 00:14:56,240 --> 00:15:00,240 Speaker 1: he was there. Rosie Gilliam is the son of Sandy Gilliam, 233 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 1: Jim's bar Street and Maryland State football coach. Sandy Gilliam 234 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 1: moved his family back to Lancaster in the early seventies 235 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:09,520 Speaker 1: when he left football behind and took a job at 236 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:13,040 Speaker 1: Springs Mill. Today, I think that people might suggest that 237 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:16,480 Speaker 1: there's some I don't know, ill will directed toward him 238 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:20,120 Speaker 1: by the police. And I think then, of course people 239 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:24,840 Speaker 1: thought that. I mean, but there was nothing that certainly 240 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:28,200 Speaker 1: nothing that we could prove. And as kids, I know, 241 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:31,080 Speaker 1: our general thought was that there was probably something that 242 00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 1: was not right. Yeah, but it was more of a 243 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:37,800 Speaker 1: fear that you know, makes certain you don't put yourself 244 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:41,520 Speaker 1: in a position where that's could happen to you. Bush 245 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:47,240 Speaker 1: Dudgeon was a Jim Duck. Jim had achieved a stature 246 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:50,640 Speaker 1: that far exceeded even the white authorities in Lancaster, and 247 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 1: those authorities knew it. Even if he wasn't brazen enough 248 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:57,280 Speaker 1: to approach a white officer's daughter, the mere fact that 249 00:15:57,320 --> 00:16:01,600 Speaker 1: he could have was richly symbolic. The best thing that 250 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:03,880 Speaker 1: could have happened with been him not to be there 251 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:07,200 Speaker 1: in the first place. Rosie Gilliam was a teenager when 252 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:09,960 Speaker 1: Jim died and still looked up to the Super Bowl champ. 253 00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:13,640 Speaker 1: Why was he a in Lancaster and be what would 254 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:16,920 Speaker 1: he get the police depart? And you know, had either 255 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:19,720 Speaker 1: one of those things been a no, And maybe he'd 256 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:23,640 Speaker 1: be a laugh today. So in the police station, whether 257 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:27,120 Speaker 1: Jim talked about a love affair or anything else, his 258 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:30,920 Speaker 1: main offense was already committed simply by being there. The 259 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:38,520 Speaker 1: world professional what if the question isn't what happened, but 260 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:42,320 Speaker 1: how it happened. The potential for conflict comes up when 261 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:45,280 Speaker 1: the officer may not just be lack of deference as 262 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 1: something that is upsetting. They may be it is something 263 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:52,760 Speaker 1: that requires a physical response. Here's USC law professor Seth Stowton. 264 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:56,080 Speaker 1: I can think of no better example than the sandral 265 00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 1: Land traffics. Hello man, well it takes how I'm told 266 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:01,800 Speaker 1: the press stop is. You didn't fail. You failed to 267 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:03,760 Speaker 1: signal your lane change. You get your gram blace in 268 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:07,480 Speaker 1: turns with you. After an initial interaction, the officer walked 269 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:09,920 Speaker 1: back to his car, wrote out what we later learned 270 00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:12,960 Speaker 1: as a warning ticket, walked back up to Sandra Bland's 271 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:15,879 Speaker 1: car and one of the first things he said was 272 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:20,600 Speaker 1: you seem irritated. Okay, I'm laing, no you you this 273 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:23,320 Speaker 1: is yo job. I'm landing on you. How don't you 274 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:26,879 Speaker 1: seem very irritated? I am, I really am, But what 275 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:28,960 Speaker 1: I'm getting tantical. I'm getting out of your way. You 276 00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:32,119 Speaker 1: just speeding up tailingly so I'll move over, and you 277 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:34,680 Speaker 1: stopped moving. So yeah, I am a little irritated, but 278 00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:36,760 Speaker 1: that doesn't stop you from giving me a ticketing crack. 279 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:40,440 Speaker 1: If that had been me in my newer model car, 280 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:44,040 Speaker 1: dressed in my business suit, I think the cop would have, 281 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:48,040 Speaker 1: again unconsciously and without realizing it, given me a little 282 00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:51,240 Speaker 1: more deference than he gave Sandra Bland. But what he 283 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:58,000 Speaker 1: did was Sandra Bland is he waited four seconds and 284 00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:01,720 Speaker 1: he said, are you done? Who asked me, well? Can? 285 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:05,000 Speaker 1: I told you so? Now I'm telling you. In other words, 286 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:07,720 Speaker 1: he was telling her, I'm not deferring to you that 287 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:12,840 Speaker 1: I don't care about or respect your concerns. They were 288 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:15,919 Speaker 1: in a staring contest, and the problem with the staring 289 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:20,400 Speaker 1: contest in this context is not who blinks first. It's 290 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:23,160 Speaker 1: who has the power to swing first, and that's the officer. 291 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:25,280 Speaker 1: I'm giving you a law for to turn around. Will 292 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:29,000 Speaker 1: you're not going I'm not complaining because you just pluwed 293 00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:32,919 Speaker 1: me out of my car and around. Could something like 294 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:36,520 Speaker 1: that have happened in Lancaster especially then? Ye like just 295 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:38,320 Speaker 1: a little bit of time, I just wanted to ask you, 296 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:41,080 Speaker 1: you know, like what you remembered about that. Beyond George 297 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:44,680 Speaker 1: Lloyd's account, there isn't even independent confirmation of the timeline 298 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:47,639 Speaker 1: of Jim's death. We're just about ready to get the 299 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:51,480 Speaker 1: second half underway. The public ult Jim Duncan. Again, I 300 00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:53,560 Speaker 1: want to emphasize, I'm not saying that is what happened. 301 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:58,480 Speaker 1: But if Jim Duncan, the football star who is used 302 00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:02,960 Speaker 1: to deference and even a degree of hero worship in Baltimore, 303 00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:08,119 Speaker 1: comes down to South Carolina, the potential for explosive conflict 304 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:20,359 Speaker 1: is pretty obvious. We'll be back after this. For those 305 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:23,240 Speaker 1: close to Jim, the pain and confusion around his death 306 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:28,120 Speaker 1: has never really gone away. That same asymmetric deference norm 307 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:31,200 Speaker 1: was on display with Elroy in the exchange he described 308 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:33,919 Speaker 1: with Chief our when Elroy said he was told not 309 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:37,680 Speaker 1: to look further into his brother's death because quote one 310 00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:45,480 Speaker 1: death was enough. So maybe I thought Lancaster's former police 311 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:49,160 Speaker 1: chief might engage with me differently. Students of the Savannah 312 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:53,320 Speaker 1: Chatham County Public School System have missed seven instructional days 313 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:56,080 Speaker 1: this year. The school bushire it seeks to make up 314 00:19:56,119 --> 00:19:59,719 Speaker 1: lost instructional time, which would require. For less than two 315 00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:03,480 Speaker 1: years after Jim's death, Loward also left Lancaster. I think 316 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:08,679 Speaker 1: we have forgotten what we're here to do, and there stood. 317 00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 1: He moved to northern Illinois, in southern Mississippi, and eventually 318 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:15,879 Speaker 1: back to Georgia, where he wrapped up four decades of 319 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:19,200 Speaker 1: law enforcement. Then he joined the school board in Savannah, 320 00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:21,600 Speaker 1: about a three and a half hour drive from Lancaster. 321 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:24,560 Speaker 1: If I got a T shirt in a classroom that 322 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:30,320 Speaker 1: says I can't teach right because of these make up dage, personally, 323 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:33,800 Speaker 1: I don't need that teacher. I'm ready. Year ago, I 324 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:37,800 Speaker 1: got in competence all about of times a file. Well 325 00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:41,439 Speaker 1: for those teachers who were crying about the pact, they family, 326 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:46,639 Speaker 1: I will be watching. Not long ago, the Savannah Morning 327 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:50,280 Speaker 1: News posted this exchange among board members over a routine 328 00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:54,720 Speaker 1: scheduling question. If you're taking us down a road to 329 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:57,840 Speaker 1: destroy this bowl, and I'm not gonna let it happened 330 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 1: as long as I'm on it, We're going to go 331 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:03,120 Speaker 1: on to another topic. Now, Is there anyone who would 332 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 1: like to speak of something that is appropriate for this? 333 00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:09,760 Speaker 1: Foret at Lower clearly hasn't lost his edge. Do you 334 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:16,280 Speaker 1: think that you were district, and I'm sure I disagree 335 00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:21,200 Speaker 1: with your order. We're going to move on. One week day, 336 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:23,480 Speaker 1: I drove down there and set through a five hour 337 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:27,280 Speaker 1: school board meeting. Afterward, I caught up with lour in 338 00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:32,480 Speaker 1: the administrate of Complex, Mrs Brat, I've talked to you 339 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:34,800 Speaker 1: on the phone like a month or two ago. I'm 340 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:37,960 Speaker 1: coming down here from rock Hill, South Carolina doing the 341 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:40,720 Speaker 1: story on Jim Dougan. I wondered about social dynamics in 342 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:43,719 Speaker 1: Lancaster and the ways they could have influenced Lower's hasty 343 00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:48,320 Speaker 1: investigation into Jim's death. I don't care who you are, 344 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:52,080 Speaker 1: where you come from, or what your lifestyle has ended 345 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:55,160 Speaker 1: up being. Even if Jim had taken his own life 346 00:21:55,600 --> 00:22:00,040 Speaker 1: exactly as law enforcement said, it is our job to 347 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:05,400 Speaker 1: treat equally and fairly. Their relative in action afterward suggested 348 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:08,720 Speaker 1: Jim's death was treated less equally because of his skin color. 349 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:11,200 Speaker 1: I just wanted to come down and try to talk 350 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:14,120 Speaker 1: to you out of fairness and not to try. Unfortunately, 351 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:17,080 Speaker 1: Lower chose not to have his voice appear in this podcast. 352 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:20,119 Speaker 1: He could have talked about the photo that ran in 353 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:23,840 Speaker 1: the Lancaster News back in four shortly before he left 354 00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:27,520 Speaker 1: South Carolina. The image showed him receiving a certificate of 355 00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:31,000 Speaker 1: appreciation from the newly formed Lancaster chapter of the INN 356 00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:34,560 Speaker 1: Double A CP. The photo appears to have been taken 357 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:37,840 Speaker 1: in Lower's wood paneled office, the chief standing with three 358 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:40,359 Speaker 1: black men in suits and the secretary of the n 359 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:44,679 Speaker 1: Double a CP, her hair in an afro. The certificate 360 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:48,439 Speaker 1: thanks Lower for his quote unique and untiring service to 361 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:52,720 Speaker 1: the community. That recognition told a very different story than 362 00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:56,680 Speaker 1: the incendiary quote. Elroy remembered, the reason I wanted to 363 00:22:56,720 --> 00:22:58,439 Speaker 1: come down here was to get your side of the 364 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:02,120 Speaker 1: store because Duncan's others had said that you had told 365 00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:05,200 Speaker 1: him um not to pursue the matter. One death was enough. 366 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:10,080 Speaker 1: Do you remember saying that? Lower told me, quote, no, 367 00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:12,960 Speaker 1: ain't no way. I'm going to tell somebody that we 368 00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:16,200 Speaker 1: did everything we could do to determine what really happened. 369 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 1: That's me. I'm not a person that tries to cover 370 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:25,840 Speaker 1: something up. Lower had a decorated career in law enforcement. 371 00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:29,440 Speaker 1: He was reportedly chosen for more than a hundred applicants 372 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:33,280 Speaker 1: to lead Lancaster's police department. Before his move to South Carolina. 373 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:36,200 Speaker 1: He'd been runner up for Policemen of the Year in Savannah. 374 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:39,000 Speaker 1: That's part of what made things like a lack of 375 00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:42,560 Speaker 1: a fingerprint test so confusing. Do you do you remember 376 00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 1: would you guys have had fingerprint evidence then, because people 377 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:47,919 Speaker 1: always said, like, why didn't they test the gun or whatever? 378 00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:52,760 Speaker 1: Lower insisted to me quote SLED did the investigation, so 379 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:56,240 Speaker 1: it would depend on what they had done. But SLED 380 00:23:56,560 --> 00:24:00,280 Speaker 1: the state's Law Enforcement Division specifically told me they weren't 381 00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:04,560 Speaker 1: in charge of the investigation. It sounds like SLID tested 382 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:07,399 Speaker 1: things that the legas y p D asked them to test. 383 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:10,960 Speaker 1: It appears that fingerprints were not among those things they 384 00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:14,960 Speaker 1: wanted tested. A little leeway on specifics is probably fair 385 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:17,760 Speaker 1: for someone in their eighties suddenly being asked about a 386 00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:22,320 Speaker 1: case from decades ago. Still, my conversation with Lour was brief, 387 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:24,879 Speaker 1: and I can't say I got much from it. You 388 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:26,680 Speaker 1: gotta know, I I really wanted to talk to you 389 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:30,120 Speaker 1: because I sat through that whole meeting. But I appreciate 390 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:31,680 Speaker 1: you talking to him, though I know it's a weird 391 00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:34,879 Speaker 1: story and I don't want to do a pie you 392 00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:38,440 Speaker 1: guys are with that. He told me he was late 393 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:41,919 Speaker 1: for another meeting and he left. Have fun in your 394 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:51,080 Speaker 1: meeting for lour. Clearly there's nothing more to be said 395 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:55,119 Speaker 1: for the people who knew Jim and idolized him and 396 00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:59,000 Speaker 1: loved him, anything at all would help. I mean, was 397 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:03,159 Speaker 1: it racial? Maybe? Was it about a woman? Maybe? Was 398 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:08,199 Speaker 1: it about drugs? Maybe? Did he kill himself? Maybe? I 399 00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:12,439 Speaker 1: personally just accepted that was something we'd never know. Rosie 400 00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:15,920 Speaker 1: Gilliam told me that once the inquest ended, the economics 401 00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:18,760 Speaker 1: of daily life once again assumed top priority for much 402 00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:23,520 Speaker 1: of Lancaster's black community. There are certainly people who demanded 403 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:26,959 Speaker 1: to know what happened. But even in retrospect, you know, 404 00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:31,080 Speaker 1: once he was dead, is there really an acceptable answer 405 00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:38,800 Speaker 1: that's gonna make it okay? And just like that and 406 00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:43,280 Speaker 1: him on a great wife, Jim Duncan, Jim Duncan's name 407 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:53,400 Speaker 1: began to fade into history. Jim David Nay. No one 408 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:55,880 Speaker 1: ever filed a lawsuit of any kind against the police, 409 00:25:56,920 --> 00:26:00,520 Speaker 1: not his family, and not Alice. It seems like you 410 00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:03,840 Speaker 1: stashed it away. I don't think. I don't know that 411 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:08,159 Speaker 1: I'll be wrapped up for anybody. Yeah, she told me 412 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:10,840 Speaker 1: that part of her wonders if there's still time and 413 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:15,919 Speaker 1: if there's still a point. The truth, she said, feels 414 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:19,280 Speaker 1: like a diamond in the rough, and that's someday the 415 00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:21,919 Speaker 1: winds of time might finally expose enough to let that 416 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:27,480 Speaker 1: truth shine through. And then, leading my work on this project, 417 00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:31,320 Speaker 1: I learned that Jim might finally get his day in court. 418 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:38,120 Speaker 1: And on party of return Man, Linda, this is brought McCormick. 419 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:40,880 Speaker 1: Somebody that knows that I'm working on this story called 420 00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:43,480 Speaker 1: me and told me they found some one somewhere either 421 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:46,359 Speaker 1: died with it or is going to die with it. 422 00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:49,000 Speaker 1: You're never going to get anything out of it if 423 00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:54,520 Speaker 1: someone is responsible for taking someone else's life. The families 424 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:58,919 Speaker 1: deserve to know that, whole community deserve to know that. 425 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:03,919 Speaker 1: I don't think Layers anything unusual about Micaster. If you 426 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:06,639 Speaker 1: took away the date and time, could you imagine that 427 00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:11,840 Speaker 1: happening today? In the intro is yes you can. I'm 428 00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:15,040 Speaker 1: Brett McCormick. Return Man is a production of The Herald, 429 00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:20,000 Speaker 1: McClatchy Studios and I Heart Radio. It's produced by Matt Walsh, 430 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:25,000 Speaker 1: Kara Tabor Cotta, Stevens, Rachel Wise, and Davin Coburn. The 431 00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:28,720 Speaker 1: executive producer for I Heeart Radio is Sean Titone. For 432 00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:31,080 Speaker 1: lots more on this story, go to Harold online dot 433 00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:35,080 Speaker 1: com slash return Man. If you have any additional information 434 00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:38,840 Speaker 1: about Jim Duncan's life or death, email us at return 435 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:42,639 Speaker 1: Man at Harold online dot com. To continue supporting this 436 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:46,280 Speaker 1: kind of work, visit Harold online dot com slash Podcasts 437 00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:50,120 Speaker 1: and consider a digital subscription. And for more podcasts from 438 00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:54,159 Speaker 1: my Heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 439 00:27:54,600 --> 00:28:05,000 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows