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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The body of twenty two

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Speaker 1: year old Ashley Lord Ellertt was found by her roommate

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Speaker 1: early Thursday morning. Police see the stabbing happened Wednesday night.

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Speaker 1: I remember like it was yesterday. I entered the house.

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Speaker 1: There was two steps to the left here and Ashley

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Speaker 1: was laying across the two stairs, absolutely blue and covered

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Speaker 1: in blood. A sense of trauma just came over me.

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Speaker 1: I thought maybe the person was sold there and I

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Speaker 1: kind of ran out, end up getting to the car

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Speaker 1: and calling from my cell phone. It still traumatizes me

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Speaker 1: to this day. Ashley ellern was just everybody's daughter, living

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Speaker 1: life and having fun. She winds up meeting somebody who

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Speaker 1: is the wrong person and lost her life over it.

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Speaker 1: You were hearing our friends at forty eight hours describing

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Speaker 1: the death of a beautiful young girl in a serious

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Speaker 1: romance with TV and movie star Ashton Kutcher. I, Nancy Grace,

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Speaker 1: this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 1: But it doesn't end there. Not only was movie star

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Speaker 1: Ashton Kutcher's girlfriend found massacred, it went on. I observed

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Speaker 1: quite a large amount of blood and not too short

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Speaker 1: distance was Ashley's body a lot of anger, a lot

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Speaker 1: of rage. Somebody had isolated Ashley Ellerin to kill her

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Speaker 1: and was very, very angry when he did it. It

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Speaker 1: just was a very bad sea, probably one of the

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Speaker 1: worst I've seen. What would surprise this seasoned investigator even

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Speaker 1: more was what he didn't see any evidence that would

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Speaker 1: point to a killer. You know, we were just looking

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Speaker 1: for any type of direction or clues that would to

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Speaker 1: lead to a suspect. It was Ashley's friends that gave

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Speaker 1: detectives that first and only clue, pointing them to a

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Speaker 1: young man Ashley had met in the neighborhood months earlier.

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Speaker 1: The information we have is that he introduced himself as

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Speaker 1: a heating and air guy. A heating and air guy.

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Speaker 1: You know, I'm in the middle of a massive manuscript

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Speaker 1: about don't be a victim, and one of the things

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Speaker 1: I'm preaching is to know who was coming into your home,

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Speaker 1: particularly repairman, cable guys, the heating and air guy, the

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Speaker 1: hot water heater guy, the internet guy. Joining me an

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Speaker 1: all star panel topic Hollywood Ripper with Me Joseph Scott Morgan,

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Speaker 1: Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet.

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Speaker 1: John Limley Crime online dot Com investigative reporter, forensics psychologist

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Speaker 1: doctor Jolie Silva, defense attorney Emory Law School, trial professor

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Speaker 1: Randy Kessler, and joining me retired chief medical Examiner doctor

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Speaker 1: Chris Sperry, Doctor Sperry. When you find a scene like

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Speaker 1: that that is so bloody and so brutal, sometimes it's

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Speaker 1: very difficult to find the cod cause of death by

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Speaker 1: just looking at the body. What do you do after

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Speaker 1: the scene is documented and processed? Of course, then you know,

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Speaker 1: once is done, then it comes down to examining the body.

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Speaker 1: And you're absolutely right, that is covered in blood. The

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Speaker 1: blood can hide oh dozens, sometimes hundreds of different injuries,

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Speaker 1: and so that requires just meticulous, careful cleaning and documentation

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Speaker 1: and uh, you know, discovery, And that's the process is

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Speaker 1: slow and tedious, but eventually all of the injuries will

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Speaker 1: emerge from where they've been covered up by blood. Well,

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Speaker 1: how do you clean the body to find the injuries? Well, again,

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Speaker 1: you know, forensically, a lot of photographs are taken in

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Speaker 1: the morgue before we even start doing anything. And then

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Speaker 1: the clothes, if there's any clothing that's carefully removed, and

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Speaker 1: it may have to be cut away and that's preserved

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Speaker 1: and kept for evidence purposes. And then from head to turn.

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Speaker 1: I mean, do you always cut it away or do

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Speaker 1: you put on gloves and try to unbutton it, but

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Speaker 1: then you have to move the body right to pick

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Speaker 1: the body up to take the clothes off. Well either way,

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Speaker 1: I mean sometimes the blood is so it's so dry

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Speaker 1: and the clothing is so crusted that there's just no

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Speaker 1: way to remove the clothing, you know, conventionally unbuttoning, pulling

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Speaker 1: it over the head, things like that. Also, cutting the

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Speaker 1: clothing away really allows very minimal disturbance of the body itself.

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Speaker 1: So you know, clothing we can put back together, but

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Speaker 1: if we have to distort or move the body around,

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Speaker 1: this could even uh, you know, destroy safe trace evidence

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Speaker 1: like hairs, fibers, things like that that may be on

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Speaker 1: different parts of the body. And so you know, a

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Speaker 1: great deal of care is taken to try to preserve

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Speaker 1: the integrity of the body itself. But then you have

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Speaker 1: to clean all the blood off. If the body is

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Speaker 1: this bloody, and I'm talking about Ashley Element, Ashton Kutcher's girlfriend, Um,

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Speaker 1: how do you get all the blood off to find

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Speaker 1: the wounds? Soap and water very carefully, just starting from

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Speaker 1: the top and working working way down and you know,

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Speaker 1: inspecting everything very closely again looking for hairs, fibers, anything

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Speaker 1: that's foreign. But then just some warm water with soap

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Speaker 1: and careful washing to wash the crusted blood away, to

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Speaker 1: expose the injuries underneath. What kind of sup I'll just

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Speaker 1: played at. Actually don works for a well, so dawn

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Speaker 1: would be dishwashing. Yeah, it works, It works very nice.

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Speaker 1: It's very mild. It doesn't you know, it doesn't damage

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Speaker 1: the skin, and it's uh, you know, as I said,

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Speaker 1: it's very it's very mild, so it doesn't really distort

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Speaker 1: or change anything. Joseph Scott Morgan, author of Blood Beneath

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Speaker 1: My Feet on Amazon, professor forensics at Jacksonville State University.

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Speaker 1: In order for somebody like doctor Chris Sperry to do

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Speaker 1: what he does, the processing of the crime scene in

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Speaker 1: a brutal and bloody crime scene like with Ashton Kutcher's

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Speaker 1: girlfriend Ashley Ellern, I mean, when you walk into a

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Speaker 1: scene like that, you better be prepared to stay many,

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Speaker 1: many hours. And I remember at the Courthouse shooting at

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Speaker 1: Fulton County Courthouse, that crime scene was sealed off for days.

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Speaker 1: Do you remember that Judge Rowland Barnes, for one, that

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Speaker 1: I used to play softball with on the Courthouse softball team,

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Speaker 1: My dear friend Julie the court reporter, and I remember

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Speaker 1: that scene being cordoned off for days and days while

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Speaker 1: it was processed. Do you remember that, Randy Kessler. I'm

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Speaker 1: looking at the courthouse out of my window and it

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Speaker 1: brings tears to my eyes every time I look at that.

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Speaker 1: That was that was rrific. I mean, it can take

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Speaker 1: days to process a crime scene. So explained to me

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Speaker 1: Joska Morgan, how do you even tackle that. You have

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Speaker 1: to have a plan to begin with. I know that's

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Speaker 1: that's that's very very short explanation. But you cannot just

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Speaker 1: go in to an environment like this and randomly begin

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Speaker 1: to process the thing. You have to have people that

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Speaker 1: have their specific jobs that are there. As far as

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Speaker 1: photography goes measurements, you have to have what we refer

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Speaker 1: to as a scribe, someone that is literally taking painstaking

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Speaker 1: notes as as you move through it. You'll have a

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Speaker 1: videographer many times that is videotaping a scene and listen.

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Speaker 1: One of the things I want people at home that

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Speaker 1: are listening to this think about think about a scene

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Speaker 1: with a body there, and think about it in the

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Speaker 1: shape of like a wagon wheel, with the body being

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Speaker 1: kind of the central hub, and everything else radiates out

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Speaker 1: from that. You wait, you wait to the very last

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Speaker 1: moment that you can before that body is actually removed

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Speaker 1: from the scene, because if you go directly into the body,

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Speaker 1: go directly into the body, then everything else can be destroyed,

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Speaker 1: all those little fragmented pieces of evidence we're talking about.

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Speaker 1: You know, a case here that's particularly violent, you'll have

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Speaker 1: a myriad of blood evidence that's there, some of which

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Speaker 1: might not be the victims, it could potentially be the perpetrator.

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Speaker 1: You can have a fractured glass from a struggle, broken lamps,

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Speaker 1: broken wood. In some cases you'll have gunshot casing. So

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Speaker 1: you have to be very very careful. Okay, this is

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Speaker 1: what I don't understand, John Limley. This is a yes

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Speaker 1: no okay, which is against everything you stand for. But Limley,

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Speaker 1: isn't it true that movie star Ashton Kutcher was on

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Speaker 1: the scene of the murder that night? Yes, Crime Stories

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Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace Ashley Ellern was a happy team with

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Speaker 1: a bright future. She grew up in the Silicon Valley

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Speaker 1: town of Los Altos, California. Ashley was a member of

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Speaker 1: the swimming team and grinned from ear to ear when

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Speaker 1: posing with the water polo team. She was class council

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Speaker 1: treasurer during her junior year. In one yearbook photo, the

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Speaker 1: Bookish team wears glasses, it's captioned flashback. Ashley Ellern takes

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Speaker 1: time out of her hectic schedule to talk with a

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Speaker 1: friend during brunch. Here she displays a radiant smile with

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Speaker 1: her arms draped around classmates. A few years later, she

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Speaker 1: met actor Ashton Kutcher. It's okay, I know what to do.

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Speaker 1: He was the sexy goofball on that seventy show and

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Speaker 1: his star was on the rise. Ashley was twenty two

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Speaker 1: and studying fashion. In February of two thousand and one,

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Speaker 1: she was getting ready for a date with Kutcher and

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Speaker 1: Ashley Ellern was stabbed forty seven times. Movie star Ashton

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Speaker 1: Kutcher on the scene the night Ashley Ellern stabbed forty

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Speaker 1: seven times Listen to our friends at Inside Edition. On

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Speaker 1: the night she was murdered, Kutcher had invited her to

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Speaker 1: be his date at a Grammy's party. Ashton Kutcher came

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Speaker 1: here to Ashley's house to pick her up. He rang

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Speaker 1: the bell, but there was no answer. Police say he

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Speaker 1: then peered in the window and saw what he thought

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Speaker 1: was wine on the floor. There was no sign of Ashley,

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Speaker 1: so he left. Turns out it wasn't wine at all.

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Speaker 1: It was a pool of Ashley's blood. She'd been stabbed

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Speaker 1: forty seven times and was lying dead behind the front door.

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Speaker 1: Two John Linley Crime online dot Com investigative reporter explained

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Speaker 1: to me, how was it that Ashton Kutcher was on

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Speaker 1: the scene the night of her murderer but was not arrested.

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Speaker 1: What is his story? He had known Ashley a couple

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Speaker 1: of weeks at this point. They had met at a

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Speaker 1: Hollywood party. He was absolutely mitten with this aspiring fashion designer,

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Speaker 1: and on the night Ashton, as we've heard, stop by

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Speaker 1: Ashley's house to pick her up for this post Grammy

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Speaker 1: Awards party. Ashton rings the doorbell, rings it again and

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Speaker 1: again several times, but there's never any response. And at

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Speaker 1: one point, just before he's about to give up, he

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Speaker 1: peers into a window and they're on the floor. Right

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Speaker 1: in front of him is pools of what he thinks

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Speaker 1: is red wine with no sign of Ashley. He finally leaves,

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Speaker 1: of course, without his date. Ashley Ellern not the only

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Speaker 1: murder victim. Take a listen the violence that was visited

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Speaker 1: upon her, if that's the right way to say, it

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Speaker 1: was phenomenal. After she was dead, her body was somewhat mutilated,

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Speaker 1: and you just you know, that's crap you see in

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Speaker 1: the movies and realize that that is very rare. It

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Speaker 1: just doesn't happen. Like Ashley Ellern, Maria Bruno seemed to

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Speaker 1: have no enemies that would do her this kind of harm.

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Speaker 1: In your opinion, it looked like she was killed just

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Speaker 1: to be killed. Yes, it was a bit of a puzzle.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we were able to eliminate burglary or robbery,

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Speaker 1: and relatively quickly, we're able to eliminate sexual assault as

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Speaker 1: being a motive. But unlike the yellow in case, this time,

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Speaker 1: the assailant left something behind outside of Miss Bruno's apartment

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Speaker 1: was a blue cotton booty like a shoe covering. Actually

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Speaker 1: on the soul of the booty was a drop of

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Speaker 1: blood and DNA testing proves that, in fact, it was

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Speaker 1: Maria's blood on the drop of the booty. It was

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Speaker 1: a clue but it was also a dead end. No

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Speaker 1: other evidence was discovered. Wow, you're hearing our friend Maureen Mahr.

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Speaker 1: At forty eight hours the second victim, Maria Bruno, brutally

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Speaker 1: murdered as well. But we believe the pert leaves behind

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Speaker 1: a blue cotton booty, such as the type doctors used

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Speaker 1: when they are operating. To doctor Joey Silva, forensic psychologists

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Speaker 1: joining us out of New York, what does that say

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Speaker 1: to you about the identity of the killer? I mean,

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Speaker 1: you know, I read reports that the booty was something

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Speaker 1: that he had used for work, but you know, maybe

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Speaker 1: it was something maybe he would put something over himself

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Speaker 1: when he was committing the crime so that he wouldn't

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Speaker 1: because I really don't know. It just sounds like it

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Speaker 1: was extremely violent and just organized the way that he

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Speaker 1: was doing this to multiple women. To Randy Kessler, renowned

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Speaker 1: defense attorney, professor of Trial Tactics at Emory Law School,

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Speaker 1: Randy Kessler, for a perp to leave behind a surgical booty,

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Speaker 1: that tells me a lot about who the perpetrator is, Randy,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't you know, psychologists always have a field day

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Speaker 1: that people want to get caught subconsciously they want to

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Speaker 1: have pride of ownership at this not only something that

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Speaker 1: they did, but you know, this guy obviously was taking

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Speaker 1: it to another level. This was not his first rodeo.

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Speaker 1: He's done this, unfortunately, if it's him many times, and

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Speaker 1: maybe he wanted to get caught. Maybe he wants the attention.

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Speaker 1: Who knows how those minds active. He wants to get caught.

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Speaker 1: You know, Randy, you know, and I think I've heard

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Speaker 1: it all. I just ask you a question. He wants

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Speaker 1: to get caught, wants to get caught. Those were just

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Speaker 1: two of his many, many victims. So I guess your theory,

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Speaker 1: if I you know, follow your logic is he continued

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Speaker 1: murdering and attacking to try to get caught. Let let's

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Speaker 1: talk about what it really means. To Joseph Scott Morgan,

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Speaker 1: forensics expert and author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon,

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Speaker 1: it means this was pre planned. Even though there are

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Speaker 1: multiple stab attacks, which we would normally associate with a

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Speaker 1: frenzy murder. No, it's not a frenzy murder. It's not

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Speaker 1: a rage murder. It's very well thought out and premeditated.

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Speaker 1: The guy is covering up parts of his body so

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Speaker 1: He doesn't leave behind fiber, hair, footprints, nothing. That's why

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Speaker 1: we can't get anything on him, because he's covered himself.

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Speaker 1: He shrouded himself and surgical wear specifically not to leave

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Speaker 1: behind evidence that gives me a clue about who my

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Speaker 1: killer is. In it ain't Ashton Kutcher. No, in this

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Speaker 1: particular case, Nancy, one of the things that my mind

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Speaker 1: immediately goes to is that this guy has what we

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Speaker 1: referred to as a murder kit or kill kit, and

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Speaker 1: that is he has specific groups of a specific group

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Speaker 1: of items and tools that he's going to utilize to

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Speaker 1: perpetrate a crime. This is not a disordered event. It's

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Speaker 1: just that when you get into this environment, what the

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Speaker 1: brutality that you're seeing seems frenzied. But this is something

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Speaker 1: that will repeat itself over and over and over again.

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Speaker 1: This guy is showing up prepared. He's showing up prepared.

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Speaker 1: He's bold enough to come to this location and gain

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Speaker 1: entry into this girl's life. And that's that's the scary thing.

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Speaker 1: You were talking just a few moments ago about about

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Speaker 1: how people need to be aware. Listen, people that come

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Speaker 1: into your home now to work on various things, well

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Speaker 1: wear shoe covers. It's part of their stick, you know.

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Speaker 1: They do that so that they won't measure rugs up.

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Speaker 1: This guy has access and these things are available to

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Speaker 1: him to go in and he can justify if the

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Speaker 1: cops stopping. Well, yeah, yeah, you know, I work on

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Speaker 1: I'm the cable guy, so I have to have these

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Speaker 1: things covered in my shoes. It's it's one fallback position

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Speaker 1: that he has. John Linley, Crime online dot Com investigative reporter,

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Speaker 1: what can you tell me about the condition of Maria

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Speaker 1: Bruno's body? Were the injuries similar to those of Ashley Ellern,

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Speaker 1: who is Kutcher's girlfriend. This one seems to be even

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Speaker 1: more brutal. It was Irving Bruno that actually found and

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Speaker 1: his ex wife. There's a nine one one call where

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Speaker 1: he describes what he has found there, Maria's lifeless body

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Speaker 1: laying on what he described as a pool of blood.

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Speaker 1: Her throat has been split and one of her breasts

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Speaker 1: has been cut off. Listen Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 1: Tricia got home sometime after one am with keys in hand.

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Speaker 1: She went to the side of the house to let

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Speaker 1: herself in. She never made it. The next morning, Trisha's father,

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Speaker 1: Rick was going out to his van. I tried to

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Speaker 1: revive her. That is work freely in your life when

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Speaker 1: you kid pull somebody in love. Trisha's mother, Diane was

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Speaker 1: at work and I just left work and jumped in

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Speaker 1: the car and came home. And I don't remember anything else.

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Speaker 1: She had a lot of blood on her shirt or

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Speaker 1: a blouse. Race Aleevich was the first uniformed police officer

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Speaker 1: on the scene. I was guessing she was stabbed numerous

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Speaker 1: times when I heard a lady screaming and I turned

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Speaker 1: and looked because I was still in the front yard

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Speaker 1: and the mothers running towards Trish. I basically tackled her

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Speaker 1: and I didn't want her to see Trish like this

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Speaker 1: and remember her daughter like that. Our friend Marie mar

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Speaker 1: At forty eight hours John Limley now on victim number three,

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Speaker 1: Trisha Peccaccio. Who is she? What happened to her? And

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Speaker 1: please tell I mean she's not connected to Ashton cusher

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Speaker 1: Tricia Peccaccio had been out with some friends. She comes

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Speaker 1: in around midnight or so, some people say. Some reports

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Speaker 1: say one two a m. Someone plunges a knife into

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Speaker 1: her a dozen times, right on the stoop of her

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Speaker 1: homeside door, and the next morning, as her dad is

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Speaker 1: going out into the driveway to tinker with the truck

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Speaker 1: some her father finds her bloody body right there in

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Speaker 1: front of the door. Say she lives with her family. Yes,

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Speaker 1: she's only eighteen. Wow, that's different from the other cases.

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Speaker 1: So she's living with her family. She gets in around

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Speaker 1: midnight and she stabbed right There was there any robbery,

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Speaker 1: John Linley, No robbery that any was there any sex assault?

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Speaker 1: And that's true with the other cases as well. Yes,

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Speaker 1: they're all very quick from what investigators say. Now three

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Speaker 1: similar attacks on young women, but then a fourth, it's

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Speaker 1: our belief. At around eleven forty in the evening, he

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Speaker 1: gained access into this window, which was opened a few inches,

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Speaker 1: and once he got inside there, he then opens the

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Speaker 1: front door and kind of stages it as an escape route,

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Speaker 1: proceeds into the bedroom where she's sleeping, and what awakes

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Speaker 1: her as a knife being plunged into her. He just

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Speaker 1: flat out stabbed her right She was stabbed multiple times

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Speaker 1: in her chest and shoulder and right arm. Suffered several

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Speaker 1: wounds to both of her hands. As she's grabbing this

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Speaker 1: knife that's being plunged down upon her where those wounds

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Speaker 1: were all required surgery, and at some point there's a

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Speaker 1: lull in the action, so to speak, and she was

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Speaker 1: able to get her feet up and kick him off

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Speaker 1: of her, and that's where he then took off running

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Speaker 1: and left the location. Did he say anything to her ever,

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, he said, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Wow, you

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Speaker 1: hear our friend Marie Mayor at forty eight hours and

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Speaker 1: we're talking about the fourth victim, Michelle Murphy, who miraculously

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Speaker 1: survives yet another violent and brutal and seemingly frenzied knife attack.

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Speaker 1: To doctor Jolie Silva forensic psychologists joining us out of

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Speaker 1: New York, how do you assess someone that chooses to

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Speaker 1: use a knife in attacks as opposed to, for instance,

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Speaker 1: a gun or a blunt object. It is certainly a

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Speaker 1: violent choice. It is certainly a choice that involves a

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Speaker 1: lot more physically harder to use. And I I mean

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Speaker 1: some of these knife wounds that were forty seven times

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Speaker 1: a dozen times for the physical energy that goes into

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Speaker 1: something like that, So you know, it seems like there's

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Speaker 1: an anger, a rage underlying it, and some kind of

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Speaker 1: satisfaction gained out of the violence. After the fact some

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Speaker 1: type of satisfaction, yes, but not a sex assault. In fact,

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Speaker 1: one woman, Tricia Picaccio, was stabbed dead right there on

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Speaker 1: the stoop of her home trying to get in. Joe

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Speaker 1: Scott Morgan, forensics expert, what does it mean to you, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: with a knife attack, Nancy, this is very, very violent

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Speaker 1: and as opposed to let's just say, for instance, a gun.

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Speaker 1: A gun is a great comparison because you're at a distance.

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Speaker 1: With a weapon, it's very kind of depersonalized. With a knife,

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Speaker 1: you have to be in close proximity to this individual,

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Speaker 1: I mean almost rebreathing their air if you will, on

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Speaker 1: top of them, plunging this knife over and over and

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Speaker 1: over again. And there's also a certain level of threat

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Speaker 1: that's involved with this. You had the victim where you

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Speaker 1: want them, and they see the sharp edge coming at them.

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Speaker 1: It's absolutely terrifying. So we have four women attacked by

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Speaker 1: the so called Hollywood ripper, most of them living alone

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Speaker 1: or with roommates who were not at home at the time.

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Speaker 1: What if anything, does that mean. But there's one difference

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Speaker 1: in the scene of Michelle Murphy. Listen, we have some

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Speaker 1: blood on the steps, okay, and then blood on the

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Speaker 1: concrete steps here leading out down this walkway and into

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Speaker 1: the alley. Investigators followed the blood out to the street

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Speaker 1: where the trail ended, leading them to believe that the

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Speaker 1: attacker was long gone. So how significant in your investigation?

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Speaker 1: And when you showed up that night did you think

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Speaker 1: that blood was going to be huge? Huge? About twenty

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Speaker 1: five days after submitting my samples of the crime lab,

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Speaker 1: I'm informed by a criminalist that we actually have a hit,

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Speaker 1: a DNA hit, a profile that was determined. I didn't

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Speaker 1: get a match. So in one case, we get DNA

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Speaker 1: blood evidence from the alleged perp. But at the same time,

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Speaker 1: something very unusual is taking place. It first started with

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Speaker 1: the flowerwer and Mike, why is Michael bringing us? It

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Speaker 1: was live greenery at Easter time. He brought us a lily,

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Speaker 1: he brought us a dinner certificate to a restaurant, and

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Speaker 1: then he even brought him a shirt. It's like, wait

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Speaker 1: a minute. Nobody else was why is Michael and giving

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Speaker 1: us all of this stuff? And people the detectives at

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Speaker 1: the time, what was going on. It was enough for

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Speaker 1: Cook County Sheriffs detectives Jack Read and Mark Baldwin to

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Speaker 1: take a closer look at Michael. One of the psychologists

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Speaker 1: that was talking to us is he's trying to expiate

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Speaker 1: his sin. He's trying to with tone for his crime

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Speaker 1: with the presence that he was giving to family. You

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Speaker 1: were hearing fam Marie Marrett forty eight hours. Who is

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Speaker 1: Michael and why is he plying the family of Tisha

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Speaker 1: Pecaccio with gifts after Tricia's murder? John Lemley, who is Michael?

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Speaker 1: He is a nice, polite guy according to everyone who

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Speaker 1: lives there in the neighborhood just five hundred feet from

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Speaker 1: where the murders play. Okay, I like that you point

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Speaker 1: out he's a nice guy, But Randy Kessler defense attorney

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Speaker 1: Ted Bundy was charming. He was a nice guy too.

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Speaker 1: I'm not impressed by somebody saying he's a nice guy.

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Speaker 1: Oh look if it's if there's anything that's cliche and

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Speaker 1: our businesses, I can't believe it happened in our neighborhood.

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Speaker 1: He was the nicest guy and it's the family next

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Speaker 1: tour that that is definitely not going to work in

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Speaker 1: a critical setting. Well, now we've got him plying the

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Speaker 1: family of Tisha Pecaccio with gifts. They don't really make

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Speaker 1: any sense. A shirt, a gift carter, a gift certificate

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Speaker 1: to a restaurant, So what if any would have been

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Speaker 1: his connection to Ashley Ellerin. I was walking and then

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Speaker 1: found him sitting in his car at the end of

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Speaker 1: the street with the motor running, and I went in.

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Speaker 1: I just remember keep calling, Ashley, where did you find

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Speaker 1: this guy? This is very odd. Why is this guy

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Speaker 1: in front of our house at two three in the morning.

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Speaker 1: Justin confronted him the next day when Gardulo dropped by

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Speaker 1: for a visit, I said, what the hell were you

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Speaker 1: doing in front of my house at two three in

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Speaker 1: the morning. He started to go on about how the

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Speaker 1: fact that he couldn't go home last night because the

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Speaker 1: FBI was waiting for him at his home to collect

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Speaker 1: DNA samples from Chicago, some murder, his best friend's girlfriend

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Speaker 1: was murdered, or whatever. Ashley and her friends dismissed Gardulo's

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Speaker 1: story as an unlikely fantasy. But what no one realized

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Speaker 1: at the time it was true crime stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 1: I was walking and then found him sitting in his

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Speaker 1: car at the end of the street with the motor running,

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Speaker 1: and I went in. I just remember, keep calling, Ashley,

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Speaker 1: where did you find this guy? This is very odd?

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Speaker 1: Why is this guy in front of our house at

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Speaker 1: two three in the morning. Justin confronted him the next

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Speaker 1: day when Gardiulo dropped by for a visit, I said,

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Speaker 1: what the hell were you doing in front of my

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Speaker 1: house at two three in the morning. He started to

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00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 1: go on about how the fact that he couldn't go

426
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:53,000
Speaker 1: home last night because the FBI was waiting for him

427
00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:58,360
Speaker 1: at his home to collect DNA samples from Chicago, some murder,

428
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:02,640
Speaker 1: his best friend's girlfriend was murdered or whatever. Ashley and

429
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:07,560
Speaker 1: her friends dismissed Gardulo's story as an unlikely fantasy. But

430
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:11,360
Speaker 1: what no one realized at the time it was true.

431
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:14,080
Speaker 1: You're hearing our friend Marie mar at forty eight hours.

432
00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:18,239
Speaker 1: So now I've got this guy allegedly sitting down the

433
00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:20,320
Speaker 1: street at three am in the morning in his car

434
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:24,840
Speaker 1: outside Ashley Ellern's home. I've got him plying the family

435
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:30,760
Speaker 1: of Trisha Peccaccio with gifts, and I'm yet to hear

436
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:36,960
Speaker 1: about a DNA match regarding Michelle Murphy's brutal attack. So

437
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:45,320
Speaker 1: who is this guy? Michael Garjulie methodical and systematic slaughter

438
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:49,800
Speaker 1: of women. Now. Gardulo grew up in suburban Chicago, played

439
00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:52,440
Speaker 1: on his high school football team, and later worked as

440
00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:55,560
Speaker 1: an acy repairman and a plumber. They also say he

441
00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:58,840
Speaker 1: was a husband and a father. The alleged what nobody

442
00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 1: knew was that he was leading a double life, because

443
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:05,840
Speaker 1: investigators are calling Gardjulo a serial sexual thrill killer who

444
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:09,080
Speaker 1: allegedly stabbed and butchered his victims. He's charged with both

445
00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:12,240
Speaker 1: murder and attempted murder in four different attacks. In all

446
00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:15,600
Speaker 1: the cases, they say the mo was the same. Gardjulo's

447
00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:20,240
Speaker 1: plan to kill was to first identify a target who

448
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:24,160
Speaker 1: lived near him, acquaint himself with that victim and her

449
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:30,960
Speaker 1: habits and routines, and then watch shadow stock and hunt

450
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 1: down the victims relentlessly as part of his plan to kill.

451
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:39,360
Speaker 1: That's our friends at CBS two News Kara Finistrom. Wow,

452
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:42,600
Speaker 1: it's almost too much to take in to doctor Chris Sperry,

453
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:48,800
Speaker 1: retire Chief medical Examiner, what do you make of the ems,

454
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:54,280
Speaker 1: the method of operation, and the causes of death and

455
00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:57,920
Speaker 1: attacks on these four women for that we know of?

456
00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:05,000
Speaker 1: Doctor Sperry's interesting contrast because the perpetrator obviously is planning

457
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:11,040
Speaker 1: things very carefully, in great detail. He's preparing himself. He has,

458
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:15,240
Speaker 1: as Joe Morgan pointed out, a killed kit. I mean

459
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:20,680
Speaker 1: he has everything put together to you know, to carry

460
00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:24,920
Speaker 1: out his plan. But then once he gets access and

461
00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:30,680
Speaker 1: overpowers the victim, then the amount of injury I mean

462
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:34,160
Speaker 1: multiple stab wounds, I mean almost fifty in a couple

463
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:38,640
Speaker 1: of cases. That's that's what we would consider to be overkilled.

464
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:44,280
Speaker 1: In other words, there's way too many injuries that would

465
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:48,400
Speaker 1: be necessary to kill the person. He just keeps stabbing

466
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:53,880
Speaker 1: and stabbing and cutting until unfortunately, except for the last victim,

467
00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:57,280
Speaker 1: but in the others he keeps stabbing well passed the

468
00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:02,080
Speaker 1: time that they're dead. So there's it's an interesting mixture

469
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:09,320
Speaker 1: of careful planning that finally is an incredible outpouring of

470
00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:14,840
Speaker 1: rage and hatred too, and just killing the victim over

471
00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:17,840
Speaker 1: and over and over again until he's finally finished. Some

472
00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:21,480
Speaker 1: describe him as the boy next door killer. I don't

473
00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:26,000
Speaker 1: know if those words necessarily fit together or listen. Michael Garjulo,

474
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:33,600
Speaker 1: for almost fifteen years, was watching, always watching, and his

475
00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:38,440
Speaker 1: hobby was plotting the perfect opportunity to attack women with

476
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:44,080
Speaker 1: a knife in and around their homes. On one occasion,

477
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:49,720
Speaker 1: one of Ashley's friends saw Garjulo staring into Ashley's house

478
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:56,320
Speaker 1: at odd hours, surveilling her home. To you, doctor Jolie Silva,

479
00:32:56,480 --> 00:33:00,320
Speaker 1: forensic psychologists joining us out of New York. It's seems

480
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:03,800
Speaker 1: as if as important as the actual murderer was the

481
00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 1: stalking and the surveilling and the spying that this guy,

482
00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:15,800
Speaker 1: Michael Gerzuelo would perform. It seems like part of a ritual. Yeah. Yeah,

483
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:19,960
Speaker 1: And you know, when you see serial killers, the fantasy

484
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:25,840
Speaker 1: that comes before it is quite common. The stalking, the plotting,

485
00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:29,680
Speaker 1: the planning, the fantasizing, and sometimes in the very beginning,

486
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:33,360
Speaker 1: the fantasy alone brings that level of satisfaction, and then

487
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:36,120
Speaker 1: that's not enough. It's almost like a drug addiction. Then

488
00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:38,400
Speaker 1: I need more, and then I need more, and then

489
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:41,360
Speaker 1: I need more until if he's escalating, until there are killings,

490
00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:43,400
Speaker 1: and then he needs a fix every time. But that

491
00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:49,520
Speaker 1: stalking fantasy usually perceives something like this, take a listen

492
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:52,960
Speaker 1: to our him. Miriam Hernandez at ABC seven. Defendant Michael

493
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:57,480
Speaker 1: Garzuelo first ingratiated himself to his victims. He was the helpful.

494
00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:01,560
Speaker 1: Next four handyman, only to stalk them, break in, then

495
00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:06,680
Speaker 1: repeatedly stabbed them. The defense rebuts Gargello's fingerprints were not found.

496
00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:10,359
Speaker 1: Is there any physical evidence? As I said, the forty

497
00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 1: three year old is accused of two murders and one

498
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:15,200
Speaker 1: attempted murder in the LA area, but the DA says

499
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:18,640
Speaker 1: Garzelou targeted his first victim in nineteen ninety three in

500
00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:22,479
Speaker 1: Chicago when he was seventeen. His arrest though too late

501
00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:26,000
Speaker 1: for Mario Bruno, her ex husband found her mutilated body

502
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:39,200
Speaker 1: and called nine one okay. The alleged killing spree was

503
00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:44,480
Speaker 1: enabled by skillful planning. Garzello knew martial arts, studied forensic science,

504
00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:47,680
Speaker 1: and how to kill with a knife. His cover, he

505
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:51,719
Speaker 1: was an air conditioning repairman as me. So much of

506
00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:56,280
Speaker 1: BTK behind torture killed Dennis Writer who had a regular

507
00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:59,759
Speaker 1: job as a dog catcher right there that would erase

508
00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 1: the a flag for me, but had access to neighborhoods

509
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:07,960
Speaker 1: and could knock on doors and identify potential victims. So

510
00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:15,400
Speaker 1: he basically Randy Kessler defense lawyer had a double life. Yeah,

511
00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:17,879
Speaker 1: I mean, that's not uncommon. That's exactly what we're talking about.

512
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:21,400
Speaker 1: Before the boor next door. The average person. Everybody can

513
00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:23,840
Speaker 1: be a suspect. And that's what's terrible about humanity. You know,

514
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:26,360
Speaker 1: you never know who's next door. And the reality is

515
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:30,640
Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon,

516
00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:34,440
Speaker 1: he started, according to prosecutors at age seventeen that we

517
00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:37,920
Speaker 1: know of. There's really no telling how many other victims

518
00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:40,600
Speaker 1: there may be in addition to these four. Yeah, that's

519
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:43,399
Speaker 1: the that's the chilling part of this, Nancy. You don't

520
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:47,200
Speaker 1: know with that gap of time that we're talking about here,

521
00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:50,759
Speaker 1: you don't know who else is out there, who else

522
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:54,200
Speaker 1: is grieving because they're missing someone, And that's going to

523
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:56,600
Speaker 1: cause the police. I would think in these locations where

524
00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:59,359
Speaker 1: he has lived, where he has lived previously, took a long,

525
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:02,359
Speaker 1: hard look this guy to John Litle Crime online dot

526
00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:05,480
Speaker 1: Com investigative reporter Crime Online where you can find this

527
00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:09,319
Speaker 1: and all other breaking crime and justice and news. Where

528
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:12,640
Speaker 1: does it stand now? Ely Gariulo is facing the death

529
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:19,200
Speaker 1: penalty for the two California murders and the attempted murder charge. Now,

530
00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:23,239
Speaker 1: after this trial, which some people suspect may last as

531
00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:27,719
Speaker 1: long as six months, he'll be extradited to Illinois to

532
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:31,880
Speaker 1: face trial there for the killing of Petaccio. Randy Kessler

533
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:35,640
Speaker 1: trial lawyer, Why does every trial takes so long in California?

534
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:38,640
Speaker 1: You know, prosecutors want to get it right, and sometimes

535
00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:40,600
Speaker 1: they do too much, and that gives the defense a

536
00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:42,200
Speaker 1: lot more to pick apart. But when you're looking at

537
00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:43,920
Speaker 1: how to prosecute a case, you don't want to be

538
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:46,560
Speaker 1: the prosecutor that says, oh my gosh, I just brought

539
00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:48,600
Speaker 1: this one more piece of evidence. It's one more witnesses,

540
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:52,680
Speaker 1: one more person testify, So sometimes they do take longer

541
00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:54,360
Speaker 1: than they need, and that may be what happened with

542
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:57,800
Speaker 1: oj Simpson, right Nancy, you were there well, Cassler Kessler,

543
00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:01,400
Speaker 1: you preach it to the choir. I say, put it

544
00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:06,480
Speaker 1: all out there, down to the very very last sintilla

545
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:10,920
Speaker 1: of evidence. Don't ever ever say shoulda, coulda, would have

546
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:13,759
Speaker 1: When it's on you to prove the case. We wait

547
00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:18,959
Speaker 1: as justice unfolds Nancy Gray's crime story, signing off goodbye friend,