1 00:00:09,664 --> 00:00:13,104 Speaker 1: Mission Implausible is now something you can watch. Just go 2 00:00:13,144 --> 00:00:16,823 Speaker 1: to YouTube and search Mission Implausible podcasts or click on 3 00:00:16,864 --> 00:00:20,864 Speaker 1: the link to our channel. In our show notes, I'm 4 00:00:20,904 --> 00:00:22,064 Speaker 1: John Cipher. 5 00:00:21,664 --> 00:00:22,784 Speaker 2: And I'm Jerry O'Shea. 6 00:00:23,264 --> 00:00:26,544 Speaker 3: We have over sixty years of experience as clandestine officers 7 00:00:26,664 --> 00:00:29,544 Speaker 3: in the CIA, serving in high risk areas all around 8 00:00:29,544 --> 00:00:30,784 Speaker 3: the world, and part. 9 00:00:30,584 --> 00:00:34,504 Speaker 4: Of our job was creating conspiracies to deceive our adversaries. 10 00:00:34,784 --> 00:00:37,504 Speaker 3: Now we're going to use that experience to investigate the 11 00:00:37,504 --> 00:00:40,504 Speaker 3: conspiracy theories everyone's talking about, as well as some you 12 00:00:40,584 --> 00:00:41,264 Speaker 3: may not have heard. 13 00:00:41,304 --> 00:00:43,544 Speaker 2: Could they be true or are we being manipulated? 14 00:00:43,664 --> 00:00:49,104 Speaker 3: We'll find out now on Mission Implausible. So today's guest 15 00:00:49,224 --> 00:00:51,664 Speaker 3: is Laura Krantz. She is one of those people who 16 00:00:51,703 --> 00:00:54,424 Speaker 3: seem to be able to do anything. She's a journalist, 17 00:00:54,464 --> 00:00:58,264 Speaker 3: an investigator, and really a storyteller. Her podcast Wild Thing, 18 00:00:58,664 --> 00:01:00,904 Speaker 3: which we will talk about some today, was named one 19 00:01:00,904 --> 00:01:03,824 Speaker 3: of the best fifty podcasts in recent years. Is also 20 00:01:03,864 --> 00:01:06,104 Speaker 3: the inspiration for a series of grade school books. And 21 00:01:06,224 --> 00:01:08,783 Speaker 3: Laura's worked as an editor and producer at NPR in 22 00:01:08,944 --> 00:01:11,143 Speaker 3: Washington and also in Los Angeles. 23 00:01:11,224 --> 00:01:13,744 Speaker 5: So good to have you with us, Really glad to 24 00:01:13,744 --> 00:01:15,703 Speaker 5: be here. I'm excited to do this. It's gonna be fun, 25 00:01:15,904 --> 00:01:16,144 Speaker 5: is it. 26 00:01:16,344 --> 00:01:20,744 Speaker 2: Yeah, you haven't heard my question yet. Let's dispense with them. 27 00:01:20,783 --> 00:01:21,744 Speaker 2: We're gonna have fun here. 28 00:01:21,904 --> 00:01:24,703 Speaker 4: Let's get right down to the really nitty gritty that 29 00:01:24,783 --> 00:01:26,904 Speaker 4: I want to talk about. Okay, you're a bigfoot expert, 30 00:01:27,544 --> 00:01:29,464 Speaker 4: bigfoot erotica. 31 00:01:29,143 --> 00:01:30,943 Speaker 5: Will are we going right into that one? 32 00:01:31,464 --> 00:01:33,864 Speaker 4: So with sort of buds with Denver Riggleman, who was 33 00:01:33,904 --> 00:01:37,904 Speaker 4: a Republican congressman, and he was accused that our buddy 34 00:01:37,944 --> 00:01:42,584 Speaker 4: Denver was accused of pushing bigfoot erotica because he wrote 35 00:01:42,584 --> 00:01:47,264 Speaker 4: a book that starts out with cryptid yetti or bigfoot 36 00:01:47,344 --> 00:01:49,824 Speaker 4: Genitalia and goes all into this. 37 00:01:50,064 --> 00:01:54,024 Speaker 2: So what is up with bigfoot erotica? Is it real? 38 00:01:54,664 --> 00:01:54,744 Speaker 3: It? 39 00:01:54,864 --> 00:01:55,303 Speaker 6: Israel? 40 00:01:55,504 --> 00:01:58,984 Speaker 5: I actually spoke with a woman who was an author 41 00:01:59,104 --> 00:02:03,344 Speaker 5: of bigfoot erotica for a long time. She lives in Parker, Colorado, 42 00:02:03,464 --> 00:02:06,704 Speaker 5: so just south of Denver. Her pen name is Virginia Wade, 43 00:02:07,344 --> 00:02:12,184 Speaker 5: and she has a whole series of bigfoot erotica books 44 00:02:12,184 --> 00:02:14,824 Speaker 5: which I have read some of them. They're very dirty. 45 00:02:15,624 --> 00:02:15,944 Speaker 2: Really. 46 00:02:16,424 --> 00:02:18,704 Speaker 5: I did a bonus interview with her, which actually I'm 47 00:02:18,744 --> 00:02:21,384 Speaker 5: re releasing the bonus episodes for Wild thing, and I'm 48 00:02:21,384 --> 00:02:22,864 Speaker 5: in the process of doing that and that's going to 49 00:02:22,864 --> 00:02:24,864 Speaker 5: be coming out next week. People are really into it. 50 00:02:24,904 --> 00:02:28,264 Speaker 5: She made like ten twenty thousand dollars a month writing this. 51 00:02:28,544 --> 00:02:32,224 Speaker 4: See like some handsome eight foot guy who liked was 52 00:02:32,384 --> 00:02:33,704 Speaker 4: like a bonus ripper. 53 00:02:34,224 --> 00:02:34,744 Speaker 2: Give me now. 54 00:02:35,344 --> 00:02:37,864 Speaker 5: I wouldn't go with handsome. I would go with slobbering 55 00:02:37,944 --> 00:02:40,664 Speaker 5: beasts who like kidnaps. You takes you off into the 56 00:02:40,664 --> 00:02:41,864 Speaker 5: woods and then I'm not sure if it's like a 57 00:02:41,904 --> 00:02:44,424 Speaker 5: Stockholm syndrome or if you like, actually do fall in 58 00:02:44,424 --> 00:02:47,944 Speaker 5: love with Bigfoot. You're very busy when you're hanging out 59 00:02:47,944 --> 00:02:48,544 Speaker 5: with Bigfoot. 60 00:02:48,784 --> 00:02:52,264 Speaker 3: Well, I know you've did You've done some podcast work 61 00:02:52,304 --> 00:02:54,984 Speaker 3: on aliens and nuclear issues. But if we're starting with Bigfoot, 62 00:02:55,064 --> 00:02:56,904 Speaker 3: can I ask how did you choose to look at 63 00:02:56,984 --> 00:02:58,984 Speaker 3: Bigfoot and sasquatch and those things? 64 00:02:59,344 --> 00:03:01,904 Speaker 5: So that is the big question here, And I get 65 00:03:01,904 --> 00:03:04,144 Speaker 5: that one a lot because people are like, you've seem normal, 66 00:03:04,544 --> 00:03:06,904 Speaker 5: what are you doing? Especially when I was still working 67 00:03:06,984 --> 00:03:09,144 Speaker 5: for NPR and I mentioned I was doing this night, 68 00:03:09,184 --> 00:03:11,744 Speaker 5: a couple of colleagues being like, really, you're going to 69 00:03:11,784 --> 00:03:15,304 Speaker 5: tank your career like that. So what happened was I 70 00:03:15,464 --> 00:03:18,224 Speaker 5: found out that my grandfather's cousin, and I found this 71 00:03:18,264 --> 00:03:21,824 Speaker 5: out after he had passed away. He was a tenured 72 00:03:21,824 --> 00:03:25,824 Speaker 5: professor of physical anthropology, so the science of anthropology at 73 00:03:25,864 --> 00:03:29,224 Speaker 5: Washington State University in Pullman, Washington, and he was also 74 00:03:29,264 --> 00:03:33,504 Speaker 5: the country's pre eminent academic expert on Bigfoot. And I 75 00:03:33,664 --> 00:03:35,984 Speaker 5: was just like, what, how can you be a scientist 76 00:03:36,104 --> 00:03:38,264 Speaker 5: and believe in Bigfoot? Because I had grown up thinking 77 00:03:38,264 --> 00:03:41,064 Speaker 5: that Bigfoot was Harry and the Henderson's a campfire myth, 78 00:03:41,144 --> 00:03:45,264 Speaker 5: like just not anything anyone took really seriously. But to 79 00:03:45,304 --> 00:03:48,064 Speaker 5: find out that there's this scientist who's my relative, who 80 00:03:48,144 --> 00:03:51,264 Speaker 5: was actually gathering evidence and trying to come up with 81 00:03:51,304 --> 00:03:55,064 Speaker 5: a plausible hypothesis for the existence of Bigfoot just blew 82 00:03:55,104 --> 00:03:57,624 Speaker 5: my mind. And so I decided, Okay, I'm going to 83 00:03:57,664 --> 00:04:00,824 Speaker 5: suspend all disbelief here and I'm going to look into this. 84 00:04:00,984 --> 00:04:03,464 Speaker 5: You know, there's a whole wide range of people who 85 00:04:03,544 --> 00:04:05,664 Speaker 5: look for Bigfoot. There are people who are like Bigfoot 86 00:04:05,664 --> 00:04:07,264 Speaker 5: lives in my basement and talks to me and we 87 00:04:07,304 --> 00:04:09,984 Speaker 5: have breakfast every morning. And then there are peopleeople who 88 00:04:10,144 --> 00:04:13,184 Speaker 5: were more like my cousin, who was like, it is 89 00:04:13,224 --> 00:04:15,944 Speaker 5: a biologic creature, like any other creature, it has to 90 00:04:15,984 --> 00:04:18,904 Speaker 5: have a breeding population, it has to obey all the 91 00:04:18,944 --> 00:04:20,944 Speaker 5: laws of physics and biology that the rest of us 92 00:04:20,984 --> 00:04:23,584 Speaker 5: have to obey. And he looked for evidence based on that. 93 00:04:23,704 --> 00:04:27,024 Speaker 5: So I followed in his footsteps, if you will, and 94 00:04:27,303 --> 00:04:31,183 Speaker 5: his big footsteps, and went down this path and explored 95 00:04:31,224 --> 00:04:32,223 Speaker 5: this for a year and a half. 96 00:04:32,503 --> 00:04:34,863 Speaker 3: What is the biggest surprises that came out to you, 97 00:04:34,904 --> 00:04:35,904 Speaker 3: like from that. 98 00:04:36,144 --> 00:04:38,183 Speaker 5: The thing that blew my mind? I think the most. 99 00:04:38,383 --> 00:04:40,544 Speaker 5: There were a couple. One was there were a lot 100 00:04:40,584 --> 00:04:44,303 Speaker 5: of people who, similar to my own experience, had like 101 00:04:44,584 --> 00:04:47,944 Speaker 5: very science, had scientific backgrounds. They were people you would trust. 102 00:04:48,024 --> 00:04:51,024 Speaker 5: They were people who worked for National Park Service or fishing, 103 00:04:51,063 --> 00:04:53,183 Speaker 5: game or fish and wildlife, like people who were out 104 00:04:53,224 --> 00:04:55,424 Speaker 5: in the woods and experienced a lot of animals and 105 00:04:55,503 --> 00:04:57,984 Speaker 5: knew their surroundings and knew the ecosystems they were in, 106 00:04:58,264 --> 00:05:00,224 Speaker 5: and then they would have this experience and they were 107 00:05:00,264 --> 00:05:02,664 Speaker 5: just like, I don't know how else to explain it. 108 00:05:02,704 --> 00:05:06,064 Speaker 5: I don't want it to be bigfoot necessarily, but that's 109 00:05:06,104 --> 00:05:08,263 Speaker 5: the only thing that I can grab hold of that 110 00:05:08,344 --> 00:05:10,984 Speaker 5: makes sense to me. And a lot of them really 111 00:05:10,984 --> 00:05:13,863 Speaker 5: were kind of embarrassed by it or fighting it in 112 00:05:13,904 --> 00:05:15,984 Speaker 5: some ways, which I thought was interesting. And then the 113 00:05:16,063 --> 00:05:18,863 Speaker 5: other thing that struck me is that we've had stories 114 00:05:18,904 --> 00:05:21,583 Speaker 5: of Bigfoot for hundreds, if not thousands of years. There's 115 00:05:21,584 --> 00:05:24,544 Speaker 5: always been these kinds of stories about these big, oversized 116 00:05:24,544 --> 00:05:29,143 Speaker 5: creatures outside the line of the campfire, and you wonder 117 00:05:29,264 --> 00:05:32,464 Speaker 5: where did those originate, where did they come from? And 118 00:05:32,984 --> 00:05:36,344 Speaker 5: there is a lot of anthropological evidence of all these 119 00:05:36,344 --> 00:05:39,384 Speaker 5: other species that coexisted when humans were first around. There 120 00:05:39,383 --> 00:05:41,264 Speaker 5: were at least seven or eight that were walking the 121 00:05:41,344 --> 00:05:43,904 Speaker 5: earth at the same time Homo sapiens were, and you'd 122 00:05:43,904 --> 00:05:47,023 Speaker 5: wonder maybe something like Bigfoot was around back then. And 123 00:05:47,024 --> 00:05:49,863 Speaker 5: then the stories have been passed down over generations because 124 00:05:49,863 --> 00:05:51,544 Speaker 5: if you think about what it takes to become a 125 00:05:51,584 --> 00:05:55,064 Speaker 5: fossil and then be discovered and uncovered at the right 126 00:05:55,144 --> 00:05:59,023 Speaker 5: moment and analyzed properly, maybe something like this existed and 127 00:05:59,063 --> 00:06:00,464 Speaker 5: we just don't know for sure. 128 00:06:00,584 --> 00:06:04,383 Speaker 4: We certainly do know that Neanderthal and modern humans inhabited 129 00:06:04,503 --> 00:06:06,623 Speaker 4: Europe at the same time in parts of the Middle East, 130 00:06:06,943 --> 00:06:10,344 Speaker 4: and we don't know that they did interbreed through genes 131 00:06:10,383 --> 00:06:12,664 Speaker 4: at least in a few cases, but we don't know 132 00:06:12,704 --> 00:06:15,623 Speaker 4: what the relationship was. In fact, I think within ten 133 00:06:15,623 --> 00:06:18,943 Speaker 4: thousand years of our species showing up in Europe, the 134 00:06:19,024 --> 00:06:21,623 Speaker 4: Anderthals went extinct for whatever reason. 135 00:06:21,664 --> 00:06:22,264 Speaker 2: So it could be. 136 00:06:22,264 --> 00:06:28,144 Speaker 4: Some mythological ativistic remembrance of a ten thousand year conflict 137 00:06:28,183 --> 00:06:29,863 Speaker 4: with another human species. 138 00:06:30,104 --> 00:06:31,984 Speaker 2: I'm just guessing, I know, but yeah. 139 00:06:31,823 --> 00:06:33,584 Speaker 5: And I think that's what a lot of this is, 140 00:06:33,584 --> 00:06:37,383 Speaker 5: its guesswork. We're making assumptions based on the evidence we 141 00:06:37,424 --> 00:06:39,024 Speaker 5: have at hand, and we don't have a lot of 142 00:06:39,063 --> 00:06:42,424 Speaker 5: evidence from ten thousand years ago or even further back. 143 00:06:42,823 --> 00:06:44,943 Speaker 2: So I grew up in a rural area right upstate 144 00:06:45,024 --> 00:06:45,904 Speaker 2: New York Mountains. 145 00:06:46,264 --> 00:06:47,503 Speaker 5: A lot of bigfoot up there, beers. 146 00:06:47,823 --> 00:06:49,623 Speaker 4: We don't have bigfoot up there, not in the northern 147 00:06:49,823 --> 00:06:52,943 Speaker 4: were just Canadians. He's like, when you when you got Canadians, 148 00:06:52,984 --> 00:06:55,623 Speaker 4: you're going to find beer cans around right? Oh yeah, true, 149 00:06:55,863 --> 00:06:58,343 Speaker 4: And so what about bigfoot poop? 150 00:06:58,503 --> 00:07:00,144 Speaker 2: But I'm just saying, then. 151 00:07:00,104 --> 00:07:01,863 Speaker 3: I aspologize for Jerry's questions. 152 00:07:02,383 --> 00:07:05,784 Speaker 5: Or you could call it scan okay, Oh yeah, And 153 00:07:06,063 --> 00:07:08,464 Speaker 5: it's funny. There's one scientist I spoke to, a guy 154 00:07:08,503 --> 00:07:11,624 Speaker 5: named Todd Disstel, who used to be a molecular primatologist 155 00:07:11,664 --> 00:07:15,583 Speaker 5: at NYU. He has now moved to Amherst. I'm not 156 00:07:15,624 --> 00:07:18,424 Speaker 5: sure where he is now. He's gone to a different university, 157 00:07:18,464 --> 00:07:20,904 Speaker 5: but he was one of these scientists. It's like, look, 158 00:07:20,944 --> 00:07:23,024 Speaker 5: I'm ninety nine point nine percent sure that Bigfoot does 159 00:07:23,064 --> 00:07:25,583 Speaker 5: not exist, but if it does, I want to be 160 00:07:25,624 --> 00:07:27,463 Speaker 5: the guy who is at the front line of that. 161 00:07:27,664 --> 00:07:30,384 Speaker 5: So he'd encouraged people who were scientifically minded to send 162 00:07:30,504 --> 00:07:33,784 Speaker 5: him samples and provided they followed certain protocols and things 163 00:07:33,784 --> 00:07:35,944 Speaker 5: like that. He's like, you wouldn't believe the amount of 164 00:07:36,144 --> 00:07:38,304 Speaker 5: bear shit that I get on my desk. 165 00:07:38,584 --> 00:07:39,384 Speaker 2: He asked for it. 166 00:07:40,104 --> 00:07:42,584 Speaker 3: Well, you know, as conspiracies come and go, there's some 167 00:07:42,704 --> 00:07:46,223 Speaker 3: that like seem to stay around forever, and this one does. 168 00:07:47,224 --> 00:07:48,143 Speaker 2: What is your view on that? 169 00:07:48,224 --> 00:07:50,744 Speaker 3: Is it just because actually, as far as conspiracies go, 170 00:07:50,824 --> 00:07:52,903 Speaker 3: this is actually less crazy than many. 171 00:07:53,304 --> 00:07:55,104 Speaker 5: And I think that's a big part of it is. 172 00:07:55,144 --> 00:07:58,344 Speaker 5: It's like, it's like I said, there's gradiations of this 173 00:07:58,464 --> 00:08:00,703 Speaker 5: where you've got people who were like Bigfoot it was 174 00:08:00,824 --> 00:08:04,824 Speaker 5: beamed down here by aliens on another planet to save 175 00:08:04,944 --> 00:08:06,464 Speaker 5: us to I don't know what bigfoots supposed to be 176 00:08:06,504 --> 00:08:08,224 Speaker 5: doing if the aliens brought him here. I just feel 177 00:08:08,224 --> 00:08:10,424 Speaker 5: a little bad. It's like a he's been sent to 178 00:08:10,464 --> 00:08:12,824 Speaker 5: a black site. You guys would know about that, right. 179 00:08:13,184 --> 00:08:17,184 Speaker 5: I think that the biggest appeal of Bigfoot is people 180 00:08:17,384 --> 00:08:20,103 Speaker 5: like the idea that the world is still wild enough 181 00:08:20,144 --> 00:08:23,664 Speaker 5: and unexplored enough and untamed enough that something like Bigfoot 182 00:08:23,664 --> 00:08:26,824 Speaker 5: could exist. Because if everything has been paved over and 183 00:08:26,904 --> 00:08:30,904 Speaker 5: pruned and mapped and like Google satellited and like we 184 00:08:31,024 --> 00:08:34,224 Speaker 5: know where everything is, what's the fun, where's the discovery, 185 00:08:34,224 --> 00:08:36,304 Speaker 5: where's the excitement and the adventure? You know, it's the 186 00:08:36,344 --> 00:08:39,223 Speaker 5: same appeal that like these stories from the eighteen hundreds 187 00:08:39,224 --> 00:08:41,264 Speaker 5: of explorers going out, and yeah, there were a lot 188 00:08:41,264 --> 00:08:43,144 Speaker 5: of horrible things they did, but I think that idea 189 00:08:43,144 --> 00:08:45,504 Speaker 5: of like what's out there in the world, what don't 190 00:08:45,544 --> 00:08:49,463 Speaker 5: we know? Is very thrilling for people, and I think 191 00:08:49,504 --> 00:08:51,024 Speaker 5: that is part of the appeal of Bigfoot. 192 00:08:51,864 --> 00:08:54,864 Speaker 4: So, just doing a bit of research on this prior 193 00:08:54,904 --> 00:08:57,944 Speaker 4: to coming on, I was shocked at the amount of 194 00:08:58,304 --> 00:09:01,664 Speaker 4: synergy mixing of conspiracy theories between. 195 00:09:01,424 --> 00:09:02,703 Speaker 2: CIA and Bigfoot. 196 00:09:02,744 --> 00:09:05,064 Speaker 4: In fact, there's a suppose there's someone who claims to 197 00:09:05,103 --> 00:09:05,744 Speaker 4: be a CI officer. 198 00:09:05,824 --> 00:09:08,264 Speaker 2: I don't know whether she was or wasn't it. Tracy 199 00:09:08,343 --> 00:09:09,744 Speaker 2: Shamdler Walder. 200 00:09:09,784 --> 00:09:13,184 Speaker 3: Who was talking about we know Tracy Walder, do we Yeah, 201 00:09:13,424 --> 00:09:16,384 Speaker 3: f C I too, Yes, she talks about Bigfoot. 202 00:09:17,824 --> 00:09:21,664 Speaker 5: A history major at University of Southern California, Tracy wanted 203 00:09:21,664 --> 00:09:24,703 Speaker 5: to be a teacher, but a job there on campus 204 00:09:24,944 --> 00:09:25,904 Speaker 5: changed everything. 205 00:09:26,304 --> 00:09:29,544 Speaker 4: It was a table that said CIA and that they 206 00:09:29,544 --> 00:09:32,103 Speaker 4: were looking for English in history majors, and so I 207 00:09:32,184 --> 00:09:34,503 Speaker 4: dropped my resume. Often they called. 208 00:09:34,463 --> 00:09:35,744 Speaker 5: Yes and the rest is history. 209 00:09:35,824 --> 00:09:40,624 Speaker 4: Yeah, but she talks about how I guess really truly, 210 00:09:40,703 --> 00:09:45,264 Speaker 4: the FBI did test fur that was supposedly from Bigfoot. 211 00:09:45,343 --> 00:09:46,623 Speaker 2: They found out it was dear fur. 212 00:09:46,944 --> 00:09:49,824 Speaker 4: But the conspiracy farrists were like, no, they knew it 213 00:09:49,904 --> 00:09:51,944 Speaker 4: was Bigfoot fur, but they substituted. 214 00:09:52,024 --> 00:09:53,224 Speaker 2: They just they're lying to you. 215 00:09:53,384 --> 00:09:55,824 Speaker 4: And then there was there was also footage you can 216 00:09:55,824 --> 00:10:00,024 Speaker 4: look up online of Bigfoot. It's infrared, but he's running 217 00:10:00,024 --> 00:10:04,184 Speaker 4: between the trees of Bigfoot being photographed by a CIA helicopter, 218 00:10:04,343 --> 00:10:07,144 Speaker 4: which I'm telling you we don't have in the US. 219 00:10:07,343 --> 00:10:10,624 Speaker 5: Yeah, it's interesting that i'd forgotten about that fb I testing. 220 00:10:10,664 --> 00:10:13,304 Speaker 5: But I actually the Washington Post interviewed me for that 221 00:10:13,343 --> 00:10:15,424 Speaker 5: because I had spoken with some of the people who'd 222 00:10:15,463 --> 00:10:17,824 Speaker 5: been involved in collecting that for a guy named Peter Burn, 223 00:10:17,904 --> 00:10:20,864 Speaker 5: who died several years ago, who was like I believe 224 00:10:20,944 --> 00:10:23,944 Speaker 5: they called he was one of the four horsemen of Sasquatchery, 225 00:10:24,463 --> 00:10:28,184 Speaker 5: my cousin Grover being one of the others. In any case, 226 00:10:28,583 --> 00:10:32,144 Speaker 5: this is conspiracy in general. I think people don't trust 227 00:10:32,184 --> 00:10:35,824 Speaker 5: the government, and I think, what revolution. 228 00:10:36,064 --> 00:10:37,744 Speaker 3: You take this conspiracy and you give it to the 229 00:10:37,744 --> 00:10:39,544 Speaker 3: deep state, and when they say it's not true, it's 230 00:10:39,544 --> 00:10:40,464 Speaker 3: like that proves it's true. 231 00:10:40,544 --> 00:10:42,904 Speaker 5: It's true exactly. There's an element of that, but it's just, 232 00:10:43,064 --> 00:10:44,664 Speaker 5: you know, the stories that I heard were that the 233 00:10:44,664 --> 00:10:50,024 Speaker 5: Forest Service was covering it up because the Big Tree 234 00:10:50,264 --> 00:10:52,944 Speaker 5: or Big Lumber, whatever you want to call them, didn't 235 00:10:52,944 --> 00:10:54,983 Speaker 5: want Bigfoot to be discovered because then it would be 236 00:10:55,024 --> 00:10:58,544 Speaker 5: another spotted owl situation. And for listeners who might be 237 00:10:58,583 --> 00:11:00,504 Speaker 5: too young to remember the spotted owl. This is in 238 00:11:00,544 --> 00:11:02,744 Speaker 5: the nineteen nineties when they were trying to protect old 239 00:11:02,744 --> 00:11:06,064 Speaker 5: growth for forest in Washington State and it was the 240 00:11:06,103 --> 00:11:08,864 Speaker 5: habitat of a very small, endangered species known as the 241 00:11:08,864 --> 00:11:11,503 Speaker 5: spotted owl. So what they don't want is like someone 242 00:11:11,544 --> 00:11:13,743 Speaker 5: to discover Bigfoot all of a sudden, all this forest 243 00:11:13,824 --> 00:11:16,464 Speaker 5: land is off limits and Big Lumber can't get in 244 00:11:16,463 --> 00:11:18,024 Speaker 5: there and chop down all the trees like they were 245 00:11:18,024 --> 00:11:20,504 Speaker 5: planning on. So that was one of the conspiracies that 246 00:11:20,544 --> 00:11:23,064 Speaker 5: I heard a couple of times, but I couldn't really 247 00:11:23,103 --> 00:11:25,343 Speaker 5: find like where that had originated from. I think it 248 00:11:25,384 --> 00:11:27,264 Speaker 5: was just an idea that people held. 249 00:11:27,463 --> 00:11:30,424 Speaker 4: There's another one that the Smithsonian is the fact that 250 00:11:30,463 --> 00:11:34,984 Speaker 4: they don't have bigfoot skeletons means that they're hiding bigfoot skeletons. 251 00:11:35,103 --> 00:11:36,784 Speaker 2: So the fact that sure. 252 00:11:36,824 --> 00:11:39,384 Speaker 5: I mean, have you been to their archives? Like it 253 00:11:39,463 --> 00:11:41,064 Speaker 5: is a little like that scene at the end of 254 00:11:41,144 --> 00:11:43,024 Speaker 5: Raiders of the Lost Arc you go into this giant 255 00:11:43,064 --> 00:11:44,984 Speaker 5: warehouse and you're like, how the hell does anyone find 256 00:11:45,064 --> 00:11:47,944 Speaker 5: anything in here? They could have a bigfoot skeleton, but. 257 00:11:48,583 --> 00:11:50,824 Speaker 3: They might not even know it. Jane Goodall just died. 258 00:11:50,864 --> 00:11:52,983 Speaker 3: She was a big foot I now is my understanding. 259 00:11:54,824 --> 00:11:57,664 Speaker 7: I would I'm romantic. I would like bigfoot to exist. 260 00:11:58,024 --> 00:12:01,504 Speaker 7: I've met people who swear they've seen bigfoot, And I 261 00:12:01,504 --> 00:12:06,024 Speaker 7: think the interesting thing is every single continent there is 262 00:12:06,144 --> 00:12:10,503 Speaker 7: an equivalent of bigfoot or subsquatch, the yett, the Ciari 263 00:12:10,583 --> 00:12:14,784 Speaker 7: in Australia, there's the Chinese wild man, and and on 264 00:12:14,784 --> 00:12:18,024 Speaker 7: and on and on, and you know, I've had stories 265 00:12:18,064 --> 00:12:24,344 Speaker 7: from people who you have to believe them. So there's something. 266 00:12:24,384 --> 00:12:27,264 Speaker 7: I don't know what it is. I've always open minded. 267 00:12:29,583 --> 00:12:32,983 Speaker 5: I think her feeling was that something like Bigfoot might 268 00:12:32,984 --> 00:12:36,103 Speaker 5: have existed, and she was just coming at it from 269 00:12:36,103 --> 00:12:38,984 Speaker 5: a very like open minded attitude. 270 00:12:39,304 --> 00:12:41,944 Speaker 3: A couple of times you brought up Washington State. Our 271 00:12:41,984 --> 00:12:45,704 Speaker 3: producer Rachel is from Forks, Washington, and I think they 272 00:12:45,744 --> 00:12:49,024 Speaker 3: have a sasquatch store. There is that, correct, Rachel. They 273 00:12:49,024 --> 00:12:50,944 Speaker 3: have like candies that are meant to be little squatch 274 00:12:50,984 --> 00:12:52,384 Speaker 3: sasquatch poops and stuff. 275 00:12:52,504 --> 00:12:54,784 Speaker 5: Yeah, that's not what a sasquatch poop looks like. There's 276 00:12:54,824 --> 00:12:55,743 Speaker 5: no way they're waiting that. 277 00:12:55,904 --> 00:12:57,544 Speaker 3: Wait a minute, what does it look like. 278 00:12:58,144 --> 00:12:58,904 Speaker 5: I think they're bigger. 279 00:12:59,264 --> 00:13:00,824 Speaker 3: Yeah. It's just a guest though, isn't it. 280 00:13:01,144 --> 00:13:01,743 Speaker 2: Yeah? True? 281 00:13:01,784 --> 00:13:04,424 Speaker 5: Good point could be like rabbits, who's got birds in 282 00:13:04,463 --> 00:13:05,103 Speaker 5: the background. 283 00:13:06,064 --> 00:13:08,344 Speaker 2: I live in Hawaii as it's like forest out back. 284 00:13:08,544 --> 00:13:10,904 Speaker 5: Hawaii is the only state where Bigfoot has not been 285 00:13:10,944 --> 00:13:12,583 Speaker 5: found because Bigfoot can't swim that far. 286 00:13:13,103 --> 00:13:15,384 Speaker 4: Oh, but we do have We have the men o Huna, 287 00:13:15,744 --> 00:13:19,463 Speaker 4: which are mythical. They're not big, but they're little people. 288 00:13:19,904 --> 00:13:23,704 Speaker 4: Many sasquatches that live up in the mountains and they 289 00:13:23,744 --> 00:13:26,304 Speaker 4: come down out of the mountains and they do naughty 290 00:13:26,384 --> 00:13:28,944 Speaker 4: things like they let your pigs out or they burn 291 00:13:28,984 --> 00:13:32,184 Speaker 4: your shed down. So we have a sasquatch light here 292 00:13:32,184 --> 00:13:45,624 Speaker 4: in Hawaii. But little foot, yeah, little food. I want 293 00:13:45,624 --> 00:13:48,664 Speaker 4: to test Laura and Rachel. I want you to both 294 00:13:48,703 --> 00:13:51,103 Speaker 4: answer at the same time. Do you believe in Bigfoot? 295 00:13:51,144 --> 00:13:52,304 Speaker 2: Yes? Or no? No? 296 00:13:52,304 --> 00:13:52,343 Speaker 4: No? 297 00:13:52,864 --> 00:13:54,584 Speaker 2: Oh? Are you hesitated? Rachel? 298 00:13:54,664 --> 00:13:55,504 Speaker 5: Can I qualify? 299 00:13:55,583 --> 00:13:56,264 Speaker 2: Though? Yes? 300 00:13:57,024 --> 00:13:59,304 Speaker 5: I like the idea of Bigfoot, and if someone comes 301 00:13:59,343 --> 00:14:01,624 Speaker 5: with Bigfoot evidence, I'm all for it. 302 00:14:01,984 --> 00:14:03,504 Speaker 2: So what do locals think, Rachel? 303 00:14:03,703 --> 00:14:05,864 Speaker 8: I mean, I think that's probably why I hesitated, honestly, 304 00:14:05,944 --> 00:14:08,624 Speaker 8: is because I don't think it's necessarily a belief that's 305 00:14:08,624 --> 00:14:11,104 Speaker 8: held by that people in town. But it's something that 306 00:14:11,144 --> 00:14:13,824 Speaker 8: people like to believe in. Right, Bigfoot is good for 307 00:14:13,864 --> 00:14:14,464 Speaker 8: the economy. 308 00:14:14,624 --> 00:14:17,583 Speaker 4: Ah, bigfoots probably on your high school football team, though, right, 309 00:14:17,624 --> 00:14:20,064 Speaker 4: so is Bigfoot in the YETI are they the same 310 00:14:20,104 --> 00:14:21,024 Speaker 4: thing as a cryptid? 311 00:14:21,104 --> 00:14:23,584 Speaker 5: No, they're both cryptids, but they are not the same thing. 312 00:14:23,584 --> 00:14:26,984 Speaker 5: The yetti is smaller in the Himalaya and white. I 313 00:14:27,104 --> 00:14:31,384 Speaker 5: was actually very strongly corrected on this because I tried 314 00:14:31,464 --> 00:14:35,304 Speaker 5: to interview the guy who owned Great Divide Brewery, which 315 00:14:35,344 --> 00:14:38,064 Speaker 5: is here in Colorado, and I thought it was a 316 00:14:38,064 --> 00:14:40,024 Speaker 5: bigfoot in their logo, and it turns out it is 317 00:14:40,024 --> 00:14:42,744 Speaker 5: a yeti. And he was very clear that he's like, 318 00:14:42,784 --> 00:14:46,104 Speaker 5: the YETI is a very different creature. And I don't 319 00:14:46,104 --> 00:14:47,784 Speaker 5: want you conflating them. 320 00:14:47,664 --> 00:14:49,744 Speaker 4: So they can't mate, right like you know, horses and 321 00:14:49,784 --> 00:14:50,664 Speaker 4: donkeys that kind of thing. 322 00:14:50,744 --> 00:14:53,624 Speaker 5: They probably could, but then the the offspringer sterile. 323 00:14:53,944 --> 00:14:57,024 Speaker 3: So, Laura, you've interviewed people, what have you learned from 324 00:14:57,024 --> 00:14:59,944 Speaker 3: the people who tell the stories that they've had encounters. 325 00:14:59,984 --> 00:15:02,624 Speaker 3: Do do the people actually believe these things or do 326 00:15:02,664 --> 00:15:04,263 Speaker 3: you think some of them just want the attention or 327 00:15:04,344 --> 00:15:05,624 Speaker 3: is there a mixture of those things. 328 00:15:05,664 --> 00:15:07,664 Speaker 5: I think there's a mixture. I mean, I think you 329 00:15:07,704 --> 00:15:10,584 Speaker 5: see that with sort of any phenomen there's people who 330 00:15:10,584 --> 00:15:13,064 Speaker 5: are true believers and there's people who just want in 331 00:15:13,104 --> 00:15:15,184 Speaker 5: on the fun. But most of the people that I 332 00:15:15,224 --> 00:15:18,704 Speaker 5: spoke with really had a true belief and had an 333 00:15:18,744 --> 00:15:22,424 Speaker 5: experience and had seen something or gone through something out 334 00:15:22,464 --> 00:15:25,344 Speaker 5: in the woods that they really couldn't explain. And I 335 00:15:25,464 --> 00:15:27,944 Speaker 5: wasn't there. I can't say what happened or didn't happen. 336 00:15:27,984 --> 00:15:30,104 Speaker 5: And I have no doubt that whatever did happen was 337 00:15:30,504 --> 00:15:33,264 Speaker 5: odd and really through them, especially the people who'd been 338 00:15:33,304 --> 00:15:37,064 Speaker 5: wildlife biologists or had scientific training in these ecosystems. Like 339 00:15:37,584 --> 00:15:39,383 Speaker 5: there was one guy I spoke with, a guy named 340 00:15:39,464 --> 00:15:42,624 Speaker 5: John mayan Zinski. He's based out of Wyoming, but he 341 00:15:42,784 --> 00:15:45,304 Speaker 5: was working in the wind River Range in Wyoming sometime 342 00:15:45,344 --> 00:15:48,464 Speaker 5: in the seventies, and he tells this crazy story about 343 00:15:48,504 --> 00:15:50,064 Speaker 5: you know, he's out there, he's doing a survey of 344 00:15:50,144 --> 00:15:52,544 Speaker 5: bighorn sheep. He spent a lot of time in this area. 345 00:15:52,904 --> 00:15:55,904 Speaker 5: And one night he is in his tent and he 346 00:15:55,984 --> 00:15:59,944 Speaker 5: sees this shadow of a hand coming over the tent, 347 00:16:00,304 --> 00:16:02,504 Speaker 5: and this is after something had been harassing him for 348 00:16:02,544 --> 00:16:05,184 Speaker 5: several hours, and he was like, it was not a bear. 349 00:16:05,384 --> 00:16:07,304 Speaker 5: It was not a bear paw. It looked like a 350 00:16:07,384 --> 00:16:10,064 Speaker 5: human hand. And then whatever it was came out of 351 00:16:10,064 --> 00:16:11,624 Speaker 5: the tent like trying to figure out what it was, 352 00:16:11,664 --> 00:16:13,864 Speaker 5: and it ran off into the trees, and then it 353 00:16:14,144 --> 00:16:17,864 Speaker 5: proceeded to throw pine cones at him, and he just 354 00:16:18,224 --> 00:16:20,664 Speaker 5: was like, I know, it wasn't a bear. There was 355 00:16:20,744 --> 00:16:23,064 Speaker 5: nobody else around as far as I knew, because he 356 00:16:23,144 --> 00:16:25,744 Speaker 5: was out in the middle of nowhere. Bigfoot was not 357 00:16:25,824 --> 00:16:27,744 Speaker 5: the first thing that came to my mind, but there 358 00:16:28,064 --> 00:16:30,584 Speaker 5: were all these other people who were talking about this phenomenon, 359 00:16:30,664 --> 00:16:32,344 Speaker 5: especially in that area, and he's and I started a 360 00:16:32,384 --> 00:16:37,224 Speaker 5: wonder So yeah, I think people do experience something that 361 00:16:37,304 --> 00:16:39,224 Speaker 5: just rocks their belief system. 362 00:16:39,144 --> 00:16:44,144 Speaker 4: In wild things. You podcast about aliens, which is a yes, an. 363 00:16:44,024 --> 00:16:46,504 Speaker 2: Alien guys, they're all, oh, we are good. 364 00:16:46,544 --> 00:16:48,784 Speaker 4: Yeah, CIA is because completely a part of this, and 365 00:16:49,024 --> 00:16:52,064 Speaker 4: in fact, there was I can't speak to President Trump 366 00:16:52,144 --> 00:16:55,784 Speaker 4: recently retweeted something about med beds, which is. 367 00:16:56,424 --> 00:16:59,664 Speaker 5: The secret beds that will that come from alien technology. 368 00:16:59,144 --> 00:17:03,144 Speaker 4: That alien technology that CIA has we reversed engineered, we 369 00:17:03,184 --> 00:17:05,864 Speaker 4: can grow back limbs, and he's like, it can't cure 370 00:17:05,864 --> 00:17:10,064 Speaker 4: my bald spot for the kind of thing. But when 371 00:17:10,104 --> 00:17:15,064 Speaker 4: you investigated Bigfoot and you've investigated the UFO conspiracy theories, 372 00:17:15,224 --> 00:17:18,504 Speaker 4: did you see any similarities? Do you see other than 373 00:17:18,544 --> 00:17:20,224 Speaker 4: CIA is at the root of both of these. 374 00:17:20,064 --> 00:17:23,544 Speaker 5: But obviously the Deep States, there is some overlap. There 375 00:17:23,544 --> 00:17:25,864 Speaker 5: are definitely people who are like you know, I, like 376 00:17:25,904 --> 00:17:28,624 Speaker 5: I said, aliens brought Bigfoot to Earth. There were actually 377 00:17:28,664 --> 00:17:31,504 Speaker 5: more of those people than I would have expected. And 378 00:17:31,544 --> 00:17:33,424 Speaker 5: then you know a lot of the people, in fact, 379 00:17:33,464 --> 00:17:35,304 Speaker 5: most of the people who think that Bigfoot is out 380 00:17:35,304 --> 00:17:37,184 Speaker 5: there also think that there is some sort of alien 381 00:17:37,224 --> 00:17:40,344 Speaker 5: life out there, although a large number of them are 382 00:17:40,344 --> 00:17:44,064 Speaker 5: more on the the tip that it's like alien life 383 00:17:44,104 --> 00:17:46,704 Speaker 5: way out there, not necessarily alien life that's come down 384 00:17:46,744 --> 00:17:49,784 Speaker 5: and visited Earth, which I tend to agree with. I 385 00:17:49,824 --> 00:17:52,264 Speaker 5: think there is probably life out there somewhere, whether we're 386 00:17:52,264 --> 00:17:53,944 Speaker 5: going to shake hands and have coffee with it at 387 00:17:53,984 --> 00:17:56,424 Speaker 5: anytime in the next I don't know, two million years. 388 00:17:56,744 --> 00:17:58,544 Speaker 3: So you did Bigfoot, you did aliens, and then you 389 00:17:58,544 --> 00:17:59,864 Speaker 3: did stuff related to nuclear. 390 00:18:00,304 --> 00:18:03,384 Speaker 5: Everyone's like nuclear, that's weird. So the Bigfoot one was 391 00:18:03,384 --> 00:18:04,024 Speaker 5: the obvious. 392 00:18:03,784 --> 00:18:06,424 Speaker 3: Waitit, wait a minute, nuclear is the weird one. Aliens 393 00:18:06,424 --> 00:18:07,904 Speaker 3: and Bigfoot are fine, but. 394 00:18:08,064 --> 00:18:10,904 Speaker 5: Yeah, nuclear Bigfoot was the obvious one because of the 395 00:18:10,904 --> 00:18:13,104 Speaker 5: family connection. And then as I was wrapping up the 396 00:18:13,104 --> 00:18:16,224 Speaker 5: research on the Bigfoot season, all this stuff was happening 397 00:18:16,544 --> 00:18:18,264 Speaker 5: on the front page of the New York Times with 398 00:18:18,424 --> 00:18:21,704 Speaker 5: the Pentagon's Secret Program, a tip that they'd been running, 399 00:18:22,224 --> 00:18:25,664 Speaker 5: essentially the idea that the Department of Defense had this 400 00:18:25,784 --> 00:18:28,784 Speaker 5: secret UFO program that they had been running for years, 401 00:18:28,904 --> 00:18:31,984 Speaker 5: which they probably have been running in some capacity or 402 00:18:32,024 --> 00:18:34,184 Speaker 5: another since they were doing Project Blue Book back in 403 00:18:34,304 --> 00:18:37,104 Speaker 5: like the fifties and sixties. But that was all happening. 404 00:18:37,184 --> 00:18:41,424 Speaker 5: And then there was also this interstellar object that came 405 00:18:41,544 --> 00:18:44,424 Speaker 5: through our solar system very very briefly at the end 406 00:18:44,464 --> 00:18:46,984 Speaker 5: of twenty seventeen. It was called a Mua Mua. It 407 00:18:47,064 --> 00:18:51,584 Speaker 5: means scout basically messenger coming from Afar. And I think 408 00:18:51,704 --> 00:18:56,584 Speaker 5: most people, most astronomers, were like, this is just debris 409 00:18:56,864 --> 00:18:59,064 Speaker 5: having been blown out of another solar system and like 410 00:18:59,504 --> 00:19:02,184 Speaker 5: coming through ours and then it'll head back out somewhere. 411 00:19:02,464 --> 00:19:05,664 Speaker 5: But the guy who was running the astronomy department at Harvard, 412 00:19:05,664 --> 00:19:08,024 Speaker 5: a guy named Abbi Loweb, he was like, we have 413 00:19:08,064 --> 00:19:11,944 Speaker 5: to consider the possibility that might be artificial, that it 414 00:19:12,024 --> 00:19:15,984 Speaker 5: might be made by extraterrestrials. And he wrote that in 415 00:19:15,984 --> 00:19:18,023 Speaker 5: a scientific paper and he published it, and it's actually, 416 00:19:18,024 --> 00:19:20,144 Speaker 5: you have to consider the possibility. He didn't say it 417 00:19:20,304 --> 00:19:22,704 Speaker 5: was that. He has since gone on to say that. 418 00:19:22,744 --> 00:19:25,424 Speaker 5: It was that, which gets to your point about people 419 00:19:25,424 --> 00:19:27,984 Speaker 5: who double down on theories because it's giving them a 420 00:19:27,984 --> 00:19:28,544 Speaker 5: lot of attention. 421 00:19:28,704 --> 00:19:30,504 Speaker 3: Well, if you have a substeck, you have to get 422 00:19:30,504 --> 00:19:32,744 Speaker 3: people to it right rightly anyway. 423 00:19:33,144 --> 00:19:35,504 Speaker 5: And I was like, here's another scientist who's saying something 424 00:19:35,544 --> 00:19:38,304 Speaker 5: that's controversial because you had scientists back in the seventies 425 00:19:38,304 --> 00:19:42,264 Speaker 5: and eighties when SETI the search for extraterrestrial intelligence, that 426 00:19:42,424 --> 00:19:45,304 Speaker 5: sort of that branch of science was formed, and they 427 00:19:45,344 --> 00:19:48,384 Speaker 5: were just going laughed out of the room. But now 428 00:19:48,464 --> 00:19:50,224 Speaker 5: a lot of the things that they're talking about have 429 00:19:50,344 --> 00:19:53,064 Speaker 5: become mainstream. And similarly, what he was saying seemed a 430 00:19:53,104 --> 00:19:57,104 Speaker 5: little bit crazy, but there's some scientific value to it. 431 00:19:57,184 --> 00:19:59,184 Speaker 5: So that's how I got into the alien one. Nuclear 432 00:19:59,304 --> 00:20:01,304 Speaker 5: was again a personal one because I grew up in 433 00:20:01,344 --> 00:20:04,784 Speaker 5: Idaho Falls, Idaho, which is right near the Idaho National Laboratory, 434 00:20:04,784 --> 00:20:07,424 Speaker 5: which used to be the National Reactor Testing Station back 435 00:20:07,424 --> 00:20:09,624 Speaker 5: in the forties after we dropped the bomb and we 436 00:20:09,664 --> 00:20:11,544 Speaker 5: trying to figure out what can we do on the 437 00:20:11,584 --> 00:20:15,864 Speaker 5: positive side with nuclear power, And in nineteen sixty one, 438 00:20:16,304 --> 00:20:18,744 Speaker 5: one of the many test reactors that were out there 439 00:20:18,864 --> 00:20:21,184 Speaker 5: blew up and it killed three men. It is still 440 00:20:21,224 --> 00:20:25,464 Speaker 5: considered the deadliest nuclear reactor accident in American history. Nobody 441 00:20:25,504 --> 00:20:27,824 Speaker 5: talks about it. Nobody talked about it in my town. 442 00:20:27,904 --> 00:20:30,184 Speaker 5: My dad was there in high school when this happened, 443 00:20:30,344 --> 00:20:32,784 Speaker 5: and I didn't hear about it till years later, And 444 00:20:32,864 --> 00:20:35,344 Speaker 5: there was like all these rumors about a love triangle 445 00:20:35,384 --> 00:20:38,584 Speaker 5: and a murder suicide, and all the blame is pinned 446 00:20:38,624 --> 00:20:41,504 Speaker 5: on these guys who were killed because they're not there 447 00:20:41,504 --> 00:20:43,744 Speaker 5: to defend themselves. But there was also all this other 448 00:20:43,784 --> 00:20:46,544 Speaker 5: shady stuff going on, where like the reactor wasn't being maintained, 449 00:20:46,544 --> 00:20:49,424 Speaker 5: the army wasn't doing its job. There were problems with 450 00:20:49,464 --> 00:20:51,824 Speaker 5: this reactor and had been for years that were not 451 00:20:51,904 --> 00:20:54,904 Speaker 5: being dealt with. So it was just an interesting look 452 00:20:54,904 --> 00:20:57,944 Speaker 5: at that particular story in the context of as we 453 00:20:58,104 --> 00:21:01,864 Speaker 5: are trying to rebuild our nuclear fleet and in fact 454 00:21:02,304 --> 00:21:04,704 Speaker 5: make it larger in order to satisfy all of our 455 00:21:04,784 --> 00:21:07,304 Speaker 5: energy demands, are we any more responsible than we were 456 00:21:07,344 --> 00:21:09,384 Speaker 5: in the nineteen sixties, And part of me is like, 457 00:21:09,624 --> 00:21:11,824 Speaker 5: I'm not so sure. You watch the Russians try and 458 00:21:12,224 --> 00:21:16,263 Speaker 5: blow up the Zaporiginia nuclear plant in Ukraine, and you're like, 459 00:21:16,704 --> 00:21:19,184 Speaker 5: I don't know for if we as humans are otherwise. 460 00:21:20,344 --> 00:21:22,584 Speaker 3: I remember as a guy that was Eric Schlosser, who 461 00:21:22,624 --> 00:21:24,904 Speaker 3: wrote a book called Command to Control about all of 462 00:21:24,904 --> 00:21:28,144 Speaker 3: the near misses and accidents in schools related to nuclear weapons. 463 00:21:28,744 --> 00:21:31,104 Speaker 3: He writes about a big accident of nuclear silo on 464 00:21:31,224 --> 00:21:33,464 Speaker 3: Arkansas I remember in the book they're talking about planes 465 00:21:33,624 --> 00:21:36,144 Speaker 3: accidentally dropping nuclear Yeah, the broken arrow stuff. 466 00:21:36,304 --> 00:21:38,104 Speaker 5: You're just like, we're a little sloppy. 467 00:21:38,504 --> 00:21:41,624 Speaker 3: And Jerry and I worked in Bureaucracy's good stuff going on, 468 00:21:41,744 --> 00:21:44,984 Speaker 3: smart people, but people make mistakes and things happen, and 469 00:21:44,984 --> 00:21:48,344 Speaker 3: if you're talking about nuclear power, nuclear weapons, there's going 470 00:21:48,384 --> 00:21:51,264 Speaker 3: to be mistakes, and that's a scary thing to think about. 471 00:21:51,624 --> 00:21:55,024 Speaker 5: I will say that the Navy has actually done a 472 00:21:55,104 --> 00:21:58,664 Speaker 5: very admirable job in the now almost eighty years of 473 00:21:58,704 --> 00:22:01,144 Speaker 5: maintaining a nuclear fleet. They have not had a lot 474 00:22:01,184 --> 00:22:04,104 Speaker 5: of accidents, if any, and that's partly due to the 475 00:22:04,144 --> 00:22:06,184 Speaker 5: systems that were put in place by Admiral Rickover. 476 00:22:06,584 --> 00:22:07,424 Speaker 3: He was quite mean. 477 00:22:07,744 --> 00:22:10,544 Speaker 5: Yeah, he does not sound like the best, except for 478 00:22:10,584 --> 00:22:13,304 Speaker 5: the fact that he was like, oh, this is slightly off. 479 00:22:13,664 --> 00:22:16,464 Speaker 5: Take the whole thing apart, start over and build it 480 00:22:16,504 --> 00:22:19,064 Speaker 5: and your That is to some degree, what nuclear needs. 481 00:22:19,064 --> 00:22:20,984 Speaker 5: If you're going to play with things that are that dangerous, 482 00:22:21,304 --> 00:22:23,624 Speaker 5: you need to be as close to perfect as you 483 00:22:23,664 --> 00:22:23,984 Speaker 5: can be. 484 00:22:24,224 --> 00:22:24,424 Speaker 3: Yeah. 485 00:22:24,504 --> 00:22:27,184 Speaker 4: There was one instance where the Indians were test firing 486 00:22:27,184 --> 00:22:29,784 Speaker 4: a nuclear capable missile and they realized they had it 487 00:22:29,864 --> 00:22:32,704 Speaker 4: pointed the wrong way. This is God forbid like North Korea, 488 00:22:32,704 --> 00:22:34,784 Speaker 4: and like this is that people are people. 489 00:22:35,424 --> 00:22:37,504 Speaker 5: When I actually start to think about human nature and 490 00:22:37,544 --> 00:22:39,424 Speaker 5: our tendency to want to cut corners or do things 491 00:22:39,464 --> 00:22:43,464 Speaker 5: faster or make a lot of money. Yeah, exactly, and 492 00:22:44,224 --> 00:22:47,064 Speaker 5: maybe maybe AI can do We want AI doing this part, 493 00:22:47,064 --> 00:22:48,424 Speaker 5: I want doing that party of this. 494 00:22:48,584 --> 00:22:51,104 Speaker 4: There is a theory though, that if we find if 495 00:22:51,144 --> 00:22:55,664 Speaker 4: eventually intelligent life shows up here on Earth, that augurs 496 00:22:55,704 --> 00:22:58,464 Speaker 4: well for the human race because they believes that because 497 00:22:58,464 --> 00:23:00,984 Speaker 4: there's another theory that says that once you get the 498 00:23:01,024 --> 00:23:04,784 Speaker 4: means of destroying your planet eventually over thousands of years, 499 00:23:04,784 --> 00:23:05,584 Speaker 4: you're going to use it. 500 00:23:05,664 --> 00:23:07,504 Speaker 2: Statistically, We're going to wipe ourselves out. 501 00:23:07,504 --> 00:23:10,424 Speaker 5: We're going to the bottleneck theory right there we go. 502 00:23:10,504 --> 00:23:14,024 Speaker 4: Yeah, but yeah, another civilization doesn't do it, that means 503 00:23:14,024 --> 00:23:15,704 Speaker 4: that there's a possibility we won't either. 504 00:23:16,024 --> 00:23:18,584 Speaker 5: Yeah. I tend to look a little askance at the 505 00:23:18,624 --> 00:23:20,264 Speaker 5: idea that the aliens are going to come here to 506 00:23:20,304 --> 00:23:22,704 Speaker 5: save us, Like it feels like just I mean, I 507 00:23:22,784 --> 00:23:25,024 Speaker 5: get I get the appeal, but it feels a little 508 00:23:25,064 --> 00:23:26,664 Speaker 5: bit religious in a way. 509 00:23:26,944 --> 00:23:28,904 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's exactly why would they I go for a 510 00:23:29,024 --> 00:23:31,384 Speaker 4: run and I see a little ant heap off to 511 00:23:31,424 --> 00:23:34,464 Speaker 4: the side. I don't stop and go I'm gonna like 512 00:23:34,504 --> 00:23:37,504 Speaker 4: do sexual savior on these ants. I'm going to figure 513 00:23:37,504 --> 00:23:39,544 Speaker 4: out who their ant queen is so that I can 514 00:23:39,624 --> 00:23:41,664 Speaker 4: talk to them. It's really like, it's not a whole 515 00:23:41,704 --> 00:23:43,504 Speaker 4: lot of interest in me. I'm just gonna yeah. 516 00:23:43,504 --> 00:23:45,824 Speaker 5: And here's the other thing. Humans have only have not 517 00:23:45,904 --> 00:23:48,064 Speaker 5: been around that long three hundred thousand years out of 518 00:23:48,064 --> 00:23:50,224 Speaker 5: a four point six billion year history. And who's to 519 00:23:50,224 --> 00:23:52,744 Speaker 5: say that aliens, who would probably be more advanced because 520 00:23:52,784 --> 00:23:55,544 Speaker 5: their solar systems and their galaxies are older than ours, 521 00:23:55,864 --> 00:23:57,944 Speaker 5: didn't already come by. We're like, whoa, look at that 522 00:23:58,064 --> 00:24:00,864 Speaker 5: molten pile of garbage, and then you know, one star 523 00:24:01,024 --> 00:24:02,944 Speaker 5: only because I can't give it zero, and then never 524 00:24:02,984 --> 00:24:03,664 Speaker 5: came back again. 525 00:24:03,824 --> 00:24:05,464 Speaker 4: I can't remember where I heard this from. It's like 526 00:24:05,624 --> 00:24:08,264 Speaker 4: the reverse technology thing that CIA or Deep. 527 00:24:08,064 --> 00:24:10,144 Speaker 5: STATEE oh, yeah, I heard about this a lot. 528 00:24:10,224 --> 00:24:13,544 Speaker 4: But on one thing I heard on this was if 529 00:24:13,584 --> 00:24:16,584 Speaker 4: a group of Neanderthals were to get a hold of 530 00:24:16,624 --> 00:24:19,984 Speaker 4: your laptop, do you think they could reverse engineer it? 531 00:24:20,064 --> 00:24:20,264 Speaker 2: Right? 532 00:24:20,304 --> 00:24:20,704 Speaker 5: Totally? 533 00:24:21,104 --> 00:24:24,544 Speaker 2: They're so smart they won't even know what it is. 534 00:24:24,744 --> 00:24:26,464 Speaker 3: What do you mean a group of Neanderthals if we 535 00:24:26,504 --> 00:24:29,024 Speaker 3: got a hold of a laptop, so we I don't know. 536 00:24:28,984 --> 00:24:30,144 Speaker 2: I just hit the button right. 537 00:24:30,584 --> 00:24:33,104 Speaker 5: Yeah I can't. Yeah, I can't figure out how half 538 00:24:33,104 --> 00:24:35,464 Speaker 5: the things in my house work, like the toaster. Maybe, 539 00:24:35,464 --> 00:24:37,104 Speaker 5: but I don't know if I could reverse engineer it. 540 00:24:37,424 --> 00:24:37,904 Speaker 2: Did You see? 541 00:24:37,904 --> 00:24:39,224 Speaker 3: There was that guy I think he did a ted 542 00:24:39,304 --> 00:24:42,024 Speaker 3: talk about exactly that he said. I decided I was 543 00:24:42,064 --> 00:24:44,064 Speaker 3: going to remake the toaster right from the beginning. I 544 00:24:44,104 --> 00:24:45,704 Speaker 3: was going to go. You know, there's a cold Balt 545 00:24:45,744 --> 00:24:47,184 Speaker 3: in there. I was going to go get cold Balt 546 00:24:47,184 --> 00:24:48,544 Speaker 3: and if the plastic I had to go in. 547 00:24:50,224 --> 00:24:52,824 Speaker 9: So I thought, okay, I'll try and make an electric 548 00:24:52,864 --> 00:24:56,744 Speaker 9: taster from scratch, and working on the idea that the 549 00:24:56,824 --> 00:25:00,744 Speaker 9: cheapest electric toaster would also be the simplest reverse engineer, 550 00:25:00,784 --> 00:25:02,744 Speaker 9: I went and bought the cheapest taster I could find, 551 00:25:03,304 --> 00:25:06,984 Speaker 9: took it home and was kind of dismayed to discover 552 00:25:07,584 --> 00:25:11,384 Speaker 9: that inside this or which I'd bought for just three 553 00:25:11,424 --> 00:25:15,664 Speaker 9: pounds ninety four, there were four hundred different bits made 554 00:25:15,704 --> 00:25:19,704 Speaker 9: out of you know, one hundred plus different materials. 555 00:25:20,424 --> 00:25:22,784 Speaker 3: Which shows just how complex it is and how many 556 00:25:22,944 --> 00:25:24,944 Speaker 3: different things have to come together to make the things 557 00:25:24,944 --> 00:25:27,504 Speaker 3: that we have and it's just almost impossible. 558 00:25:28,224 --> 00:25:28,704 Speaker 4: We take it. 559 00:25:28,824 --> 00:25:31,104 Speaker 5: Yeah, but and we take so much of it for granted, 560 00:25:31,264 --> 00:25:32,744 Speaker 5: you don't stop to think about it. You just pop 561 00:25:32,744 --> 00:25:35,664 Speaker 5: it in there and it works, and it's magic, it's science, 562 00:25:35,704 --> 00:25:47,344 Speaker 5: but it just happens. 563 00:25:47,624 --> 00:25:53,024 Speaker 4: I want to circle back to your grandfather's cousins skeleton, right. 564 00:25:52,864 --> 00:25:54,424 Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, so what's the deal? 565 00:25:55,184 --> 00:25:57,184 Speaker 5: Okay, so we also have to talk a little bit 566 00:25:57,184 --> 00:26:00,304 Speaker 5: about Grover, who was This is my grandfather's cousin, Grover Krantz, 567 00:26:00,384 --> 00:26:03,504 Speaker 5: same last name. So anyway, after that, he wanted his 568 00:26:03,544 --> 00:26:06,144 Speaker 5: bones sent to the Smithsonian and he'd already made a 569 00:26:06,144 --> 00:26:08,184 Speaker 5: deal because he knew a lot of the anthropologists and 570 00:26:08,224 --> 00:26:09,984 Speaker 5: the curators who worked at the Music and they said, 571 00:26:10,024 --> 00:26:11,744 Speaker 5: yes we'll take your bones, and yes we will take 572 00:26:11,784 --> 00:26:14,864 Speaker 5: the bones of your three Irish wolfhounds, which I have 573 00:26:14,904 --> 00:26:18,064 Speaker 5: to clarify it. The dogs had died long before Grober 574 00:26:18,064 --> 00:26:20,104 Speaker 5: and he just had the bones sent to them. Anyway, 575 00:26:20,744 --> 00:26:23,704 Speaker 5: they put them in storage. They said, we'll take your bones. 576 00:26:23,744 --> 00:26:25,384 Speaker 5: There's no chance they're going to end up on display. 577 00:26:25,504 --> 00:26:29,344 Speaker 5: But then the museum, the National Museum of Natural History, 578 00:26:29,744 --> 00:26:35,624 Speaker 5: decided to do an exhibit on forensic anthropology and they 579 00:26:35,664 --> 00:26:38,344 Speaker 5: wanted to show what you could learn from bones, and 580 00:26:38,384 --> 00:26:41,904 Speaker 5: the final piece of that exhibit, they decided to take 581 00:26:42,424 --> 00:26:46,184 Speaker 5: Grover's skeleton and the skeleton of his favorite dog, Clyde, 582 00:26:46,624 --> 00:26:49,664 Speaker 5: and recreate a photo that had been taken in Grover's backyard, 583 00:26:49,664 --> 00:26:53,064 Speaker 5: probably sometime in the seventies. And it's Grover standing leaning 584 00:26:53,104 --> 00:26:54,744 Speaker 5: back a little bit and the dog up on its 585 00:26:54,784 --> 00:26:56,704 Speaker 5: hind legs and it's a huge dog and it's got 586 00:26:56,704 --> 00:26:59,104 Speaker 5: both of its paws on Grober's shoulder and it's licking 587 00:26:59,144 --> 00:27:02,624 Speaker 5: his face. And they recreated that photo and it is 588 00:27:02,824 --> 00:27:03,784 Speaker 5: so cool. 589 00:27:03,904 --> 00:27:05,384 Speaker 2: Oh, it's kind of a bare bones exhibit. 590 00:27:07,784 --> 00:27:11,624 Speaker 4: So when you talk to children about Bigfoot, huh, how 591 00:27:11,624 --> 00:27:13,904 Speaker 4: do you do that? You don't do it like Santa 592 00:27:13,904 --> 00:27:15,784 Speaker 4: Claus or the tooth Fairy? No, No, how do you 593 00:27:15,784 --> 00:27:16,504 Speaker 4: present Bigfoot? 594 00:27:16,864 --> 00:27:18,304 Speaker 5: I treat it the same way I treated it in 595 00:27:18,344 --> 00:27:20,144 Speaker 5: the podcast. I was like, look, this is something that 596 00:27:20,144 --> 00:27:22,144 Speaker 5: people have a question about, and this is something that 597 00:27:22,144 --> 00:27:24,384 Speaker 5: people want to know more about. And so what do 598 00:27:24,464 --> 00:27:26,104 Speaker 5: we do when we have a question. We try to 599 00:27:26,104 --> 00:27:29,184 Speaker 5: find answers, and we try and go about that systematically, 600 00:27:29,224 --> 00:27:31,304 Speaker 5: and we try to find evidence and does this evidence 601 00:27:31,344 --> 00:27:33,624 Speaker 5: make sense? And does it match up with the scientific 602 00:27:33,664 --> 00:27:36,224 Speaker 5: process or is this something that doesn't quite you know, 603 00:27:37,064 --> 00:27:40,784 Speaker 5: it's a fun idea, but it's not necessarily grounded in 604 00:27:40,864 --> 00:27:44,264 Speaker 5: science or fact. You asked earlier if I believed in Bigfoot, 605 00:27:44,544 --> 00:27:46,824 Speaker 5: I say no, But I like the idea of Bigfoot, 606 00:27:46,864 --> 00:27:49,384 Speaker 5: and I understand why people believe, and I understand why 607 00:27:49,464 --> 00:27:53,104 Speaker 5: people have this question. And if someone comes out and 608 00:27:53,304 --> 00:27:55,944 Speaker 5: find has found a body or a big piece of 609 00:27:55,984 --> 00:27:58,264 Speaker 5: a body, or DNA evidence that backs it up, I 610 00:27:58,304 --> 00:28:01,064 Speaker 5: will be right on the sidelines cheering those people on. 611 00:28:01,784 --> 00:28:06,184 Speaker 4: Bigfoot is as a harmless conspiracy theory, unlike a lot 612 00:28:06,224 --> 00:28:10,304 Speaker 4: of conspiracy theories. It doesn't hurt anybody. It's fun, you 613 00:28:10,344 --> 00:28:13,464 Speaker 4: can have fun with it. It's not global p tofive, 614 00:28:13,584 --> 00:28:14,864 Speaker 4: not destroying our democracy. 615 00:28:14,944 --> 00:28:19,184 Speaker 5: Yeah, no, the issue with Bigfoot. The issue with Bigfoot 616 00:28:19,304 --> 00:28:21,104 Speaker 5: might be that it's a gateway drug. I think a 617 00:28:21,104 --> 00:28:23,944 Speaker 5: lot of people start with Bigfoot and then keep going. 618 00:28:24,464 --> 00:28:27,664 Speaker 5: There's a really great I'm forgetting her name, but she 619 00:28:27,784 --> 00:28:31,624 Speaker 5: created like a pyramid, like a hierarchical pyramid of like conspiracies, 620 00:28:31,704 --> 00:28:34,664 Speaker 5: and level one is like Bigfoot, fairly harmless. But then 621 00:28:34,744 --> 00:28:37,064 Speaker 5: level two you start getting into some really dark stuff. 622 00:28:37,064 --> 00:28:38,864 Speaker 5: And by the time you've hit level three, like you're 623 00:28:38,864 --> 00:28:41,944 Speaker 5: really going down this rabbit hole, and these are things. 624 00:28:42,144 --> 00:28:44,544 Speaker 5: I think she created this to help people understand, like 625 00:28:44,624 --> 00:28:46,864 Speaker 5: my friend believes in Bigfoot. Should I be worried and 626 00:28:46,864 --> 00:28:48,624 Speaker 5: she's like Bigfoot in and of itself. No, but if 627 00:28:48,664 --> 00:28:51,144 Speaker 5: you start moving from Bigfoot down into the next level, 628 00:28:51,184 --> 00:28:53,624 Speaker 5: then maybe start to be a little bit more worried. 629 00:28:53,824 --> 00:28:59,064 Speaker 5: But Bigfoot, I think, by itself, is relatively harmless. I 630 00:28:59,064 --> 00:29:01,984 Speaker 5: think a lots of people who like Bigfoot also like 631 00:29:02,064 --> 00:29:04,464 Speaker 5: being outside, like going hiking and camping. 632 00:29:04,784 --> 00:29:06,504 Speaker 3: So Florida, I asked, what are you doing next? 633 00:29:06,584 --> 00:29:09,464 Speaker 5: Ooh, good question. It's hard for me to pick one 634 00:29:09,584 --> 00:29:12,304 Speaker 5: that I liked most, because I really did enjoy all 635 00:29:12,344 --> 00:29:15,104 Speaker 5: of these projects from different perspective. I think Bigfoot is 636 00:29:15,144 --> 00:29:17,264 Speaker 5: probably my favorite because it was the first one and 637 00:29:17,304 --> 00:29:19,784 Speaker 5: it has that family connection. And I probably spent more 638 00:29:19,784 --> 00:29:21,544 Speaker 5: time on this project than I did on any of 639 00:29:21,544 --> 00:29:23,704 Speaker 5: the others, just because I was learning how to do 640 00:29:23,744 --> 00:29:26,384 Speaker 5: the process. But all of them are interesting, and there's 641 00:29:26,384 --> 00:29:28,704 Speaker 5: so much good science and so many smart people. And 642 00:29:28,704 --> 00:29:31,424 Speaker 5: then in terms of what I'm doing next, I'm working 643 00:29:31,424 --> 00:29:35,064 Speaker 5: on somebody else's podcast right now. Because the podcasting world 644 00:29:35,384 --> 00:29:39,424 Speaker 5: is not the most lucrative. Despite what the people will 645 00:29:39,424 --> 00:29:41,784 Speaker 5: tell you, You're not making a lot of money on podcasts, 646 00:29:41,864 --> 00:29:43,664 Speaker 5: especially not on the kinds that I do, which are 647 00:29:43,704 --> 00:29:46,504 Speaker 5: these sort of long narrative series making. 648 00:29:46,664 --> 00:29:46,864 Speaker 4: Yeah. 649 00:29:47,864 --> 00:29:50,624 Speaker 5: Yeah, maybe erotica is the way forward for you both. 650 00:29:54,304 --> 00:29:57,184 Speaker 5: There probably is. So I'm working on someone else's podcast, 651 00:29:57,184 --> 00:29:59,784 Speaker 5: and then I'm trying to write a science fiction novel. 652 00:29:59,824 --> 00:30:01,984 Speaker 5: I've never written fiction, even though everybody thinks I have 653 00:30:02,024 --> 00:30:02,824 Speaker 5: with the bigfoot stuff. 654 00:30:02,864 --> 00:30:04,264 Speaker 3: You got to give us a little teaser. 655 00:30:04,304 --> 00:30:04,784 Speaker 2: What is it. 656 00:30:04,784 --> 00:30:07,464 Speaker 5: It's about tics, That's all I'm going to tell you. 657 00:30:07,584 --> 00:30:10,544 Speaker 5: I actually went to the Tick lab in Hamilton, Montana. 658 00:30:10,584 --> 00:30:14,024 Speaker 5: There's a biohazard or a biosafety level four lab up there. 659 00:30:14,024 --> 00:30:15,824 Speaker 5: They don't let me. They wouldn't let me into that one. 660 00:30:15,824 --> 00:30:18,224 Speaker 5: I don't know why. It's not like i'd steal the ebola. 661 00:30:18,704 --> 00:30:20,824 Speaker 5: But they also do a lot of research up there 662 00:30:20,824 --> 00:30:23,064 Speaker 5: on Rocky Mountain, spot, a fever, lime, all those kinds 663 00:30:23,064 --> 00:30:24,304 Speaker 5: of things. So I got to go up there and 664 00:30:24,344 --> 00:30:25,784 Speaker 5: go into the Tick clab and see the kind of 665 00:30:25,784 --> 00:30:29,624 Speaker 5: stuff that they're doing. And they're creepy. They're creepy little creatures. 666 00:30:29,944 --> 00:30:31,864 Speaker 4: So lurd we don't do this with all the guests, 667 00:30:31,904 --> 00:30:34,304 Speaker 4: just the ones that we like. So you get to 668 00:30:34,384 --> 00:30:38,224 Speaker 4: ask you get to ask one question of each of us. 669 00:30:38,224 --> 00:30:40,664 Speaker 2: Are just one question? Oh okay, see on the store 670 00:30:40,704 --> 00:30:43,144 Speaker 2: two or three or four? Yeah? Truth or dare? What 671 00:30:43,144 --> 00:30:44,584 Speaker 2: do you want to know about CIA? 672 00:30:44,704 --> 00:30:46,384 Speaker 5: I do kind of want to know about MK ultra 673 00:30:46,584 --> 00:30:48,264 Speaker 5: And I know you guys are talking about doing that 674 00:30:48,344 --> 00:30:51,664 Speaker 5: in a different episode, but like how extensive was that? 675 00:30:51,824 --> 00:30:54,544 Speaker 5: And are those kinds of projects still around? Because here's 676 00:30:54,624 --> 00:30:56,824 Speaker 5: and this is a legitimate question from the standpoint of 677 00:30:56,864 --> 00:30:59,224 Speaker 5: like you know, we don't know everything. There is a 678 00:30:59,224 --> 00:31:01,344 Speaker 5: lot of gray area out there. There's some science that 679 00:31:01,384 --> 00:31:03,184 Speaker 5: we thought was settled that has since gone on to 680 00:31:03,224 --> 00:31:05,304 Speaker 5: be questioned, Like just look at how physics has changed 681 00:31:05,304 --> 00:31:07,824 Speaker 5: in the past three hundred years. So I'm wondering, like, 682 00:31:08,184 --> 00:31:11,064 Speaker 5: while I don't necessarily believe in mind control, like there 683 00:31:11,144 --> 00:31:13,904 Speaker 5: are things that can be done or that we might 684 00:31:13,984 --> 00:31:17,824 Speaker 5: be getting more technologically advanced, it would allow for something similar. 685 00:31:17,904 --> 00:31:19,424 Speaker 5: So do they still do those kinds. 686 00:31:19,264 --> 00:31:21,464 Speaker 4: Of mind control? Have you been Have you watched any 687 00:31:21,504 --> 00:31:22,544 Speaker 4: political rallies lately? 688 00:31:23,184 --> 00:31:27,464 Speaker 3: Yew When we were inside, I never remember ever talking 689 00:31:27,464 --> 00:31:29,744 Speaker 3: about or digging up stuff. What I know now is 690 00:31:29,784 --> 00:31:33,424 Speaker 3: actually from reading books about it, and essentially, you know, 691 00:31:33,464 --> 00:31:35,504 Speaker 3: what I've learned is that it really was something of 692 00:31:35,584 --> 00:31:37,544 Speaker 3: its time. It was at that time when we were 693 00:31:37,584 --> 00:31:40,744 Speaker 3: really afraid World War three could break out. We thought 694 00:31:40,864 --> 00:31:43,824 Speaker 3: that the Russians had some version of mind control. There 695 00:31:43,864 --> 00:31:47,064 Speaker 3: was a number of Americans that had, like in the 696 00:31:47,144 --> 00:31:49,344 Speaker 3: Korean War, that had come back and they had become 697 00:31:49,384 --> 00:31:51,424 Speaker 3: communists and they had changed to and all these kind 698 00:31:51,424 --> 00:31:53,944 Speaker 3: of things, and I think there was some effort, probably 699 00:31:53,984 --> 00:31:57,304 Speaker 3: sensibly to say what is this explore it? And in CIA, 700 00:31:57,664 --> 00:32:00,144 Speaker 3: the director I think was interested in it and got 701 00:32:00,144 --> 00:32:02,624 Speaker 3: this scientist in a little area to do it. But 702 00:32:02,624 --> 00:32:05,744 Speaker 3: it was actually not seen as serious by the operator people, 703 00:32:05,784 --> 00:32:09,104 Speaker 3: and it was a very secret and tightly held thing 704 00:32:09,224 --> 00:32:11,384 Speaker 3: inside i CIA. And there's a lot of CIA people 705 00:32:11,384 --> 00:32:14,304 Speaker 3: who are very much against it. But are there things 706 00:32:14,304 --> 00:32:16,944 Speaker 3: like that now? I mean, there are questions that need 707 00:32:17,504 --> 00:32:21,344 Speaker 3: some sort of answer. They don't necessarily exist in the 708 00:32:21,384 --> 00:32:24,664 Speaker 3: intelligence sphere or at CIA. You know, you studied aliens. 709 00:32:24,824 --> 00:32:27,384 Speaker 3: It was the military. It was more probably involved in 710 00:32:27,384 --> 00:32:30,984 Speaker 3: those kind of things. So there are government programs probably 711 00:32:31,104 --> 00:32:31,304 Speaker 3: like that. 712 00:32:31,504 --> 00:32:34,464 Speaker 4: Yeah, So I don't think the old the Manchurian candidate 713 00:32:34,504 --> 00:32:36,464 Speaker 4: where I show you a card, and I control you. 714 00:32:36,784 --> 00:32:39,944 Speaker 4: They looked into that in the nineteen fifties because American 715 00:32:39,944 --> 00:32:42,904 Speaker 4: prisoners were coming back from North Korean captorship being captives 716 00:32:42,944 --> 00:32:45,984 Speaker 4: and they were clearly BRAINEDWAK concerned about that, yeah, right, 717 00:32:46,064 --> 00:32:48,784 Speaker 4: right right, So it was researched on it, and a 718 00:32:48,824 --> 00:32:50,704 Speaker 4: lot of it was, like as John says, it was 719 00:32:50,864 --> 00:32:54,264 Speaker 4: bad science. None of it worked to begin with. There 720 00:32:54,304 --> 00:32:56,824 Speaker 4: was no oversight, and it's one of the shames that 721 00:32:56,864 --> 00:32:58,984 Speaker 4: CII was ever involved with this back in the fifties 722 00:32:58,984 --> 00:33:03,144 Speaker 4: and sixties. But I think more to your point today, 723 00:33:03,984 --> 00:33:08,024 Speaker 4: I think AI, not individually, but is changing sort of 724 00:33:08,064 --> 00:33:11,904 Speaker 4: demographic views on things. And I think certainly authoritarian regimes 725 00:33:11,944 --> 00:33:15,384 Speaker 4: are trying to figure out ways to control information flows 726 00:33:15,424 --> 00:33:18,544 Speaker 4: to get people to believe things that's quite simply aren't true. 727 00:33:18,544 --> 00:33:21,064 Speaker 2: I mean, you know, Putin. 728 00:33:20,784 --> 00:33:24,424 Speaker 4: Has apparently most of Russia or the vast majority of 729 00:33:24,504 --> 00:33:27,864 Speaker 4: Russians believe that Ukraine started it, right, that it wasn't 730 00:33:27,904 --> 00:33:29,864 Speaker 4: Russia that marched in, or if it did, it had 731 00:33:29,904 --> 00:33:33,104 Speaker 4: every reason to. People are thinking about how to change 732 00:33:33,144 --> 00:33:37,024 Speaker 4: people's perceptions and take away their ability to make educated 733 00:33:37,024 --> 00:33:40,624 Speaker 4: decisions based on free flow of information. It's not MKA Ultra, 734 00:33:40,664 --> 00:33:43,624 Speaker 4: but it's mk ultra too, and I think it's something 735 00:33:43,824 --> 00:33:45,624 Speaker 4: to worry about. Is technology changes. 736 00:33:45,984 --> 00:33:49,664 Speaker 5: So likewise, then does the CIA also work on counter 737 00:33:49,744 --> 00:33:52,624 Speaker 5: programming so to speak? Like how do you get people 738 00:33:52,704 --> 00:33:55,304 Speaker 5: so that they don't fall for that kind of stuff? 739 00:33:55,344 --> 00:33:57,704 Speaker 5: And I'm thinking both domestically and foreign. 740 00:33:57,664 --> 00:34:00,184 Speaker 3: What's interesting at least we think about what the Russians 741 00:34:00,224 --> 00:34:03,464 Speaker 3: have tried to do with subversion of disinformation and all 742 00:34:03,504 --> 00:34:06,944 Speaker 3: of these things. I think the countries that live closer 743 00:34:06,984 --> 00:34:09,744 Speaker 3: to Russia and understand the Russian mindset are better at 744 00:34:09,784 --> 00:34:12,864 Speaker 3: and you know, the Finns and the Estonians and Latins, 745 00:34:12,944 --> 00:34:17,303 Speaker 3: Lithuanians and the polls checks some people, they're better at 746 00:34:17,344 --> 00:34:19,544 Speaker 3: dealing with disinformation. 747 00:34:18,904 --> 00:34:20,263 Speaker 5: And all this is they lived under it. 748 00:34:20,584 --> 00:34:20,823 Speaker 2: Yeah. 749 00:34:20,864 --> 00:34:23,824 Speaker 3: You see in Moldova, the Russian spent an incredible amount 750 00:34:23,824 --> 00:34:25,703 Speaker 3: of money and effort to try to make sure that 751 00:34:25,783 --> 00:34:29,303 Speaker 3: a Western oriented president was not elected, and they just 752 00:34:29,584 --> 00:34:33,504 Speaker 3: did anyway, despite this huge, massive effort by the Russians 753 00:34:33,504 --> 00:34:36,104 Speaker 3: that get false information into the system and so amazing. 754 00:34:36,183 --> 00:34:38,264 Speaker 3: I think we can learn actually a lot from those 755 00:34:38,824 --> 00:34:41,823 Speaker 3: type of places, more than some sort of scientific thing 756 00:34:41,864 --> 00:34:43,184 Speaker 3: inside our own at this point. 757 00:34:43,384 --> 00:34:46,383 Speaker 4: But it's tricky inside the US because of our First 758 00:34:46,384 --> 00:34:49,024 Speaker 4: Amendment right. So there was not too long ago there 759 00:34:49,024 --> 00:34:53,263 Speaker 4: were a number of very influential US podcasters who threw 760 00:34:53,304 --> 00:34:55,823 Speaker 4: a cutout, a very bad cutout. It was very easy 761 00:34:55,864 --> 00:34:59,104 Speaker 4: to look see through. We're taking like tens of thousands 762 00:34:59,104 --> 00:35:03,104 Speaker 4: of dollars a month from Russia and putting out talking 763 00:35:03,143 --> 00:35:06,383 Speaker 4: points that Russia is pushing. And then when they were 764 00:35:06,464 --> 00:35:08,983 Speaker 4: caught it came out they said, it's my First Amendment rights. 765 00:35:09,024 --> 00:35:11,303 Speaker 4: I believe it anyway, so what does it matter? And 766 00:35:11,424 --> 00:35:13,663 Speaker 4: nothing happened to them, nothing should It was. 767 00:35:13,663 --> 00:35:16,623 Speaker 2: More than tens of thousands. Yeah, yeah, no. 768 00:35:16,703 --> 00:35:18,383 Speaker 5: I remember hearing about that and I was like, why 769 00:35:18,424 --> 00:35:19,784 Speaker 5: didn't they come to me money? 770 00:35:20,064 --> 00:35:20,143 Speaker 3: Ye? 771 00:35:20,223 --> 00:35:21,303 Speaker 2: Yeah. That. 772 00:35:21,504 --> 00:35:24,864 Speaker 5: Actually, there's a really interesting book I read fairly recently 773 00:35:24,984 --> 00:35:27,383 Speaker 5: called Oh I'm blanking on. The name of the author 774 00:35:27,424 --> 00:35:29,183 Speaker 5: is Leah Stilly. She's a friend of mine, and she 775 00:35:29,223 --> 00:35:31,984 Speaker 5: writes about conspiracy theories. But she talked about this Supreme 776 00:35:32,024 --> 00:35:36,104 Speaker 5: Court case that happened in regards to a cult. And 777 00:35:36,384 --> 00:35:38,223 Speaker 5: this case goes all the way up to the Supreme Court, 778 00:35:38,304 --> 00:35:40,703 Speaker 5: and the plaintiffs are arguing that this cult had taken 779 00:35:40,743 --> 00:35:43,424 Speaker 5: advantage of all of these people and what the Supreme 780 00:35:43,424 --> 00:35:46,624 Speaker 5: Court eventually ends up deciding is that if the people 781 00:35:46,663 --> 00:35:51,064 Speaker 5: truly believed, then they weren't being taken advantage of, and 782 00:35:51,384 --> 00:35:55,344 Speaker 5: the defendants were, they were within their First Amendment rights. 783 00:35:55,464 --> 00:35:58,263 Speaker 5: And so you basically had this First Amendment case that 784 00:35:58,384 --> 00:36:02,984 Speaker 5: says that abusive cults are okay if people believe. 785 00:36:02,904 --> 00:36:05,183 Speaker 3: But our business scams ain't okay when they yeah, the 786 00:36:05,263 --> 00:36:07,704 Speaker 3: first story saying you need to give me money. 787 00:36:07,824 --> 00:36:10,024 Speaker 5: It feels like it needs to be relegislated based on 788 00:36:10,064 --> 00:36:10,744 Speaker 5: what's happening. 789 00:36:10,783 --> 00:36:13,544 Speaker 2: But those are conspiracies, not conspiracy theories. 790 00:36:13,623 --> 00:36:14,623 Speaker 1: Right right. 791 00:36:15,024 --> 00:36:19,263 Speaker 5: Oh, here's my other question. Here's my other question. Was 792 00:36:19,344 --> 00:36:21,703 Speaker 5: Mitt Romney right when he said that Russia was the 793 00:36:21,703 --> 00:36:24,223 Speaker 5: biggest threat back in twenty fourteen and everyone like laughed 794 00:36:24,263 --> 00:36:26,144 Speaker 5: him out of the room or twenty twelve? 795 00:36:26,183 --> 00:36:29,143 Speaker 3: I guess what I talked to groups and students, and 796 00:36:29,183 --> 00:36:31,784 Speaker 3: it's often one of the questions is and I served 797 00:36:31,783 --> 00:36:33,703 Speaker 3: in Russia. I worked on Russian issues. I worked with 798 00:36:33,703 --> 00:36:36,584 Speaker 3: the FBI and counter ESPIONA stuff on Russia stuff. I 799 00:36:36,623 --> 00:36:40,223 Speaker 3: think of Russia as a serious threat to Europe and 800 00:36:40,263 --> 00:36:41,984 Speaker 3: to US and something we need to pay attention to. 801 00:36:42,024 --> 00:36:44,343 Speaker 3: But I also think in the bigger sphere in the 802 00:36:44,344 --> 00:36:46,943 Speaker 3: twenty first century. Russia is a loser. They really don't 803 00:36:46,944 --> 00:36:49,904 Speaker 3: make anything anybody wants. The economy is the size of Portugal. 804 00:36:50,223 --> 00:36:53,703 Speaker 3: It creates problems. It's not winning the old christ so 805 00:36:53,743 --> 00:36:56,344 Speaker 3: it needs to overthrow the system. It needs to create chaos, 806 00:36:56,344 --> 00:36:58,184 Speaker 3: so it either gets attention or it keeps its sphere. 807 00:36:58,183 --> 00:37:01,343 Speaker 3: Whereas China wants to own the twenty first century. They 808 00:37:01,384 --> 00:37:04,703 Speaker 3: don't want to upset the commercial and business markets because 809 00:37:04,703 --> 00:37:06,263 Speaker 3: they want to own them and run them. So I 810 00:37:06,263 --> 00:37:09,823 Speaker 3: think China is a much larger challenge moving forward, a 811 00:37:09,864 --> 00:37:12,664 Speaker 3: much bigger issue for the United States moving forward. Russia 812 00:37:12,703 --> 00:37:15,064 Speaker 3: is a problem, it's a threat. Is it the biggest threat? 813 00:37:15,104 --> 00:37:17,463 Speaker 3: I don't think so. I think the biggest threat most 814 00:37:17,584 --> 00:37:20,344 Speaker 3: places in the world would say is the United States. 815 00:37:20,344 --> 00:37:23,303 Speaker 3: The United States has been a place that in many 816 00:37:23,344 --> 00:37:25,783 Speaker 3: places of the world, freedom loving people would look up 817 00:37:25,824 --> 00:37:27,983 Speaker 3: to is the place to go to. And it helped 818 00:37:27,984 --> 00:37:31,344 Speaker 3: with stability, It helped with keeping markets open around the world, 819 00:37:31,424 --> 00:37:35,783 Speaker 3: free trade. Now, the fact that we're changing this way 820 00:37:35,824 --> 00:37:38,703 Speaker 3: and no one knows where it's going in terms of stability, 821 00:37:38,743 --> 00:37:41,343 Speaker 3: in terms of markets, in terms of security, I think 822 00:37:41,384 --> 00:37:43,783 Speaker 3: it's the biggest sort of thing that's out there that 823 00:37:43,783 --> 00:37:46,383 Speaker 3: could cause real problems, and everyone in the world has 824 00:37:46,384 --> 00:37:48,183 Speaker 3: to pay attention to what's happening because I'm here. 825 00:37:48,544 --> 00:37:49,384 Speaker 2: Unpredictability. 826 00:37:49,464 --> 00:37:52,104 Speaker 5: Yeah, and China will happily step into the void we 827 00:37:52,183 --> 00:37:53,104 Speaker 5: leave behind. 828 00:37:53,104 --> 00:37:56,584 Speaker 3: And they are and a lot of places where we're Laura, 829 00:37:56,743 --> 00:37:58,864 Speaker 3: it's so great to have you on. Thanks, we're talking 830 00:37:58,864 --> 00:38:02,623 Speaker 3: to us. It's exciting. You've picked these fun things to explore, 831 00:38:02,663 --> 00:38:05,904 Speaker 3: and you realize good storytellers whatever they find could and 832 00:38:05,944 --> 00:38:08,504 Speaker 3: if they do it right, it can be really enjoying. 833 00:38:08,584 --> 00:38:10,984 Speaker 3: You can learn other stuff from doing it. So thank 834 00:38:11,064 --> 00:38:12,903 Speaker 3: you for what you're doing, and thanks for coming on 835 00:38:12,984 --> 00:38:13,303 Speaker 3: with us. 836 00:38:13,703 --> 00:38:15,303 Speaker 5: Thank you for having me. I told you it would 837 00:38:15,304 --> 00:38:15,783 Speaker 5: be fun and. 838 00:38:15,783 --> 00:38:17,384 Speaker 2: It was, Yes, it was. 839 00:38:22,024 --> 00:38:27,104 Speaker 6: Mission Implausible is produced by Adam Davidson, Jerry O'Shea, John Seipher, 840 00:38:27,384 --> 00:38:32,423 Speaker 6: and Jonathan Stern. The associate producer is Rachel Harner. Mission Implausible. 841 00:38:32,464 --> 00:38:35,784 Speaker 6: It is a production of Honorable Mention and Abominable Pictures 842 00:38:35,904 --> 00:38:37,263 Speaker 6: for iHeart Podcasts.