1 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:16,480 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace John banat Ramsey, a case 2 00:00:16,560 --> 00:00:20,319 Speaker 1: that has stuck in the craw of the country since 3 00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:24,000 Speaker 1: she went missing and was found dead in the basement 4 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:28,880 Speaker 1: of her own home. The fact that it was Christmas 5 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 1: Eve made the disaster even worse for so many. But 6 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:38,040 Speaker 1: now another twist in the tale of the unsolved case 7 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:42,760 Speaker 1: of John banat Ramsey. I Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. 8 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation 9 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:49,199 Speaker 1: and Sirius XM one eleven. First of all, take a 10 00:00:49,240 --> 00:01:01,680 Speaker 1: listen to our cut one kidnap. Sorry you find me 11 00:01:01,760 --> 00:01:06,480 Speaker 1: when you find that. Okay, the note left bought good? 12 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:09,160 Speaker 1: And note who was reftom you do? I'm how old 13 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:16,520 Speaker 1: is your gonna? She's good? She's old. I long to go. 14 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:20,080 Speaker 1: I don't know what you feel. The doe and my god, 15 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:24,760 Speaker 1: he's the same chicker, but it's the same chender. I 16 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:29,640 Speaker 1: don't know random note here it's the ransom now because 17 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:39,240 Speaker 1: if CCC Victory? Please okay, what's your name? Are you happy? 18 00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:43,800 Speaker 1: Land here in the river? Oh? My god? Please, I'm okay, 19 00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:46,280 Speaker 1: comey enough to tell him? Okay, do you know how 20 00:01:46,319 --> 00:01:49,400 Speaker 1: I'm she's in God? I go? Please? Would you try 21 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:53,800 Speaker 1: out you on here. Oh my god, please, okay, everybody, 22 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 1: I am honey, could take a deep friend. Sorry, hurry, 23 00:01:57,440 --> 00:02:03,480 Speaker 1: you're hacking. Tatty, tatty. You just heard a nine one 24 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:06,680 Speaker 1: one call that has been played over and over and 25 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 1: over and analyzed twice the times it's been played. You 26 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:14,840 Speaker 1: are hearing the mother of John Bine Ramsey, Patsy Ramsey, 27 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:21,320 Speaker 1: calling nine one one the night her daughter seemingly disappears, 28 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:24,200 Speaker 1: and to hear her on nine one one, you would 29 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:28,079 Speaker 1: have no idea that her daughter is actually dead in 30 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:33,360 Speaker 1: a staged scene in the basement. Take a listen to more. 31 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:38,359 Speaker 1: This is Phil keating Kusa past Santa Claus in his 32 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:42,160 Speaker 1: sleigh and a double row of candy canes. Deputy coroners 33 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:44,640 Speaker 1: brought the body of six year old John Benet Ramsey 34 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:48,160 Speaker 1: from her upscale home. Neighbors described the young girl as 35 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:51,760 Speaker 1: beautiful and polite. In nineteen ninety five, she won the 36 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 1: Little Miss Colorado pageant. Boulder police won't comment on her 37 00:02:55,919 --> 00:02:59,639 Speaker 1: cause of death, only saying that she wasn't shot or stabbed. 38 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:04,359 Speaker 1: They are investigating her death as a homicide. So far, 39 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 1: no arrests have been made. This case started as a kidnapping. 40 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:10,919 Speaker 1: Police were called here to the scene at about six 41 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 1: am the morning after Christmas. Someone inside this house had 42 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:17,079 Speaker 1: made a nine one one call saying that little John 43 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:20,040 Speaker 1: Vanet had been kidnapped. Well, when police got here, they 44 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 1: went inside the house and a short time later they 45 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:26,840 Speaker 1: found the little girl's body. The parents, John and Patsy Ramsey, 46 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:30,280 Speaker 1: were home at the time, but detectives say the parents 47 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 1: are not suspects. The father is the president of Access Graphics, 48 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:38,080 Speaker 1: located on Boulder's Pearl Street Mall. The couple does have 49 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:41,560 Speaker 1: another child, a son, around ten years old. That son 50 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:45,240 Speaker 1: now grown and having survived a battle of his own 51 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:49,840 Speaker 1: Burke Ramsey accused by many in the press as killing 52 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:53,640 Speaker 1: his sister. It never made sense to me if you 53 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:58,520 Speaker 1: even look at statistics, that is highly, highly rare. Again, 54 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grace. This is cry Stories. Thanks for being 55 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 1: with us here at Fox Nation and series M one 56 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 1: eleven with me an all star panel to make sense 57 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:09,040 Speaker 1: of what we know right now and yet another bizarre 58 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:12,840 Speaker 1: twist in the case with me high profile lawyer joining 59 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:17,000 Speaker 1: me out of the Atlanta jurisdiction, Daryl Cohen also with me, 60 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:22,080 Speaker 1: renowned psychiatrist doctor Angela Arnold at Angela Arnold MD dot com. 61 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:26,840 Speaker 1: Special Deputy Sheriff Johnson County Greg Smith joining us from 62 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:32,920 Speaker 1: Kansas Forensic Pathologists, medical examiner, detective and author of Homicide 63 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:39,599 Speaker 1: Investigation field Guide and also investigating child abuse field Guide, 64 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:43,720 Speaker 1: doctor Michelle Dupree. But first to Carol McKinley joining us. 65 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:47,400 Speaker 1: She's joining us with the Colorado Gazette and the Denver 66 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:51,960 Speaker 1: Gazette dot com. Carol. In the last hours, a stunning 67 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:57,599 Speaker 1: proposition has been made by John Bonnet's dad. Explain, well, 68 00:04:57,640 --> 00:05:01,080 Speaker 1: I think he went on Crime Come twenty twenty two 69 00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:03,960 Speaker 1: up in Las Vegas over the weekend and called for 70 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:05,720 Speaker 1: the case to be taken out of the hands of 71 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:08,160 Speaker 1: the Boulder police. Well, it's been twenty five years, Nancy. 72 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:10,680 Speaker 1: I think what you really need to do is get 73 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 1: beyond the rhetoric from all sides. You've got John Ramsey 74 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:18,000 Speaker 1: saying to take the case out of the Boulder Police's hands. 75 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:20,479 Speaker 1: You've got the Boulder police saying, hey, we're doing fine. 76 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:23,520 Speaker 1: In fact, we've just met with federal, state and local 77 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:27,600 Speaker 1: experts to go over the DNA in March. And then 78 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:30,600 Speaker 1: you've got the governor saying, hey, you know we'd be 79 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:33,359 Speaker 1: happy to see a petition. John Ramsey's got a petition 80 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:36,960 Speaker 1: out now to the governor. How much does the petition mean? 81 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:39,839 Speaker 1: I mean, really, the case is still in the hands 82 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:42,520 Speaker 1: of the Boulder Police. It's not going to go out 83 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:45,760 Speaker 1: of their hands despite the petition. I think the governor. 84 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 1: You have to understand, Governor pollis here. He doesn't shut 85 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:55,760 Speaker 1: down anybody. That's his reputation. So what you need to do. 86 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:59,200 Speaker 1: I don't really know if I agree that John Ramsey 87 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:04,120 Speaker 1: should be quote shut down. I mean, uh no, I'm 88 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:07,560 Speaker 1: sure she was murdered back in nineteen talking about Yeah, 89 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:11,120 Speaker 1: I'm talking about the petition or Ramsey because the petition. 90 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:14,360 Speaker 1: You know, let's talk about the position the petition. Take 91 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:17,599 Speaker 1: a Listen to our cut eight. This is John Andy's father, 92 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:20,840 Speaker 1: John Ramsey at Crime con Listen to our friends at Fox. 93 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:26,200 Speaker 1: It's a petition to hopefully get the State of Colorado 94 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:31,279 Speaker 1: to intervene and have the items from the crime scene 95 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 1: that should be tested for DNA that have a testing 96 00:06:34,640 --> 00:06:36,360 Speaker 1: and that's what we're hoping for. Am It's going to 97 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:41,840 Speaker 1: take a lot of help to get that movie. But 98 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 1: you know, a government's very reactive government, and we're talking 99 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:47,480 Speaker 1: about politicians, and we want them to do the right thing. 100 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:50,880 Speaker 1: And if they know there's enough people behind it asking 101 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:53,320 Speaker 1: them to do the right thing, they'll do it. That's 102 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:55,839 Speaker 1: what I'm hoping for. I don't know about you, Darryl Cohen, 103 00:06:56,520 --> 00:07:00,560 Speaker 1: but I don't like it when the state, the District 104 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:06,719 Speaker 1: Attorney's office has to be petitioned to test crime scene 105 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:11,560 Speaker 1: evidence for DNA. Why is John Ramsey having to go 106 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:14,680 Speaker 1: through all this to get items tested, and not only that, 107 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 1: he's offered to pay for the testing himself. Nancy, something 108 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:23,000 Speaker 1: is way wrong, Nancy, nothing makes sense. This should have 109 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:29,000 Speaker 1: happened twenty five years ago. DNA forensic everything should have 110 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:32,840 Speaker 1: been done by the Boulder Police, but it obviously wasn't. 111 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:38,280 Speaker 1: And we've been through this forever and John and Patsy Ramsey, 112 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:42,600 Speaker 1: who's now disease, went through hell apparently because of their 113 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 1: daughter was murdered, and it wasn't The investigation was not 114 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:52,200 Speaker 1: done properly, It wasn't done completely as it should have 115 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 1: been done well right at the bat. You never on 116 00:07:55,440 --> 00:07:58,240 Speaker 1: day one, an hour after you find the dead body 117 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:01,240 Speaker 1: of a little girl in the home where the parents 118 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 1: and the little brother were the only ones there that 119 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 1: night you don't just jump up and say, oh, they're 120 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 1: not suspects. You do an investigation first, and then if 121 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 1: they're ruled out, fine, But the crime scene was not 122 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 1: cordoned off, witnesses were not separated. I mean, I don't 123 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:22,160 Speaker 1: know how you can trust any DNA because the crime scene, 124 00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 1: if this ever does go to trial, was highly contaminated. 125 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:29,480 Speaker 1: Take a listen to more This is Hey, USA. We 126 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:32,680 Speaker 1: talked about what needs to be done, and we said, well, 127 00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:35,400 Speaker 1: there's some some big things that need to be done 128 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:41,320 Speaker 1: and some not so big things. One of the manageable 129 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:44,560 Speaker 1: tasks that ought to be done is the police. Somehow 130 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:47,400 Speaker 1: we've got to force the police or taken away from 131 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:50,839 Speaker 1: them the ability to go ahead and test some of 132 00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:53,240 Speaker 1: the crime scene evidence. It was never tested for DNA. 133 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:56,840 Speaker 1: And why that's never been done and won't be done 134 00:08:56,960 --> 00:09:01,200 Speaker 1: by the police it baffles me. But so they said, 135 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:06,240 Speaker 1: let's let's get people behind it. Will petition the governor 136 00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:14,960 Speaker 1: of Colorado to make this happen. Either take the case 137 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:17,920 Speaker 1: away from the police, which I would love, it'll ever 138 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:20,480 Speaker 1: be solved if it stays in the Boulder police hands, 139 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 1: or at least get the crime scene material tested for DNA. Samples. 140 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:31,679 Speaker 1: The technology has advanced so far in the DNA world 141 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:35,040 Speaker 1: from you know, twenty years ago, and to just not 142 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:40,199 Speaker 1: do that is it baffles me. And you know, we're 143 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:43,760 Speaker 1: not asking to be forgiven or apologize to just test 144 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:48,680 Speaker 1: the DNA. Let's solve this crime and the police won't 145 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:52,120 Speaker 1: do it, And so we're petitioning the governor and a 146 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:55,000 Speaker 1: lot of people have gotten behind it to say this 147 00:09:55,200 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 1: is crazy. Make it happen. Time stories with Nancy Greece. 148 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:18,800 Speaker 1: The crime scene was not cordoned off, witnesses were not separated. Now, 149 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:23,080 Speaker 1: I don't know that her body or items right around 150 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:26,959 Speaker 1: her body were contaminated, but I do know the entrance 151 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:31,559 Speaker 1: the area was contaminated. And I find it really odd. 152 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:34,840 Speaker 1: What about it, Greg Smith, special Deputy sheriff joining us 153 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:38,360 Speaker 1: out of Kansas, that John Ramsay is having to offer 154 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:42,319 Speaker 1: to pay for the testing. Oh one more thing, Daryl Cohen, 155 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:46,600 Speaker 1: I disagree with you in one sense. Yes, DNA tests 156 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:49,920 Speaker 1: should have been done a long time ago on every 157 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:54,199 Speaker 1: item in the home that was around the crime scene 158 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 1: or connected to the crime scene. But DNA testing has 159 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:04,360 Speaker 1: vastly progressed since nineteen ninety six. So even if something 160 00:11:04,679 --> 00:11:07,400 Speaker 1: was or was not tested at the time, it should 161 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:12,600 Speaker 1: be retested or tested for the first time with new technology. Greg, 162 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:16,480 Speaker 1: have you ever seen a parent have to pay for 163 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:19,400 Speaker 1: DNA testing? Me? Why am I paying taxes if I 164 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:22,200 Speaker 1: got to pay for DNA testing? Yeah. I have seen 165 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:26,160 Speaker 1: parents offer to pay for various things in various cases 166 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:30,040 Speaker 1: when they feel that, you know, the investigation isn't progressing 167 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:34,360 Speaker 1: fast enough, and certainly this investigation hasn't progressed. I do 168 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:39,560 Speaker 1: agree with your statement. DNA testing has changed drastically since 169 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:43,280 Speaker 1: the days of this case, and what was possible then 170 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:46,719 Speaker 1: and what is possible now are light years apart. So 171 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:49,839 Speaker 1: everything that they have, everything that was collected, should be 172 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 1: tested again. Take a listen to John Ramsey himself, and 173 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:56,240 Speaker 1: as you know, John Ramsey was under suspicion and I 174 00:11:56,360 --> 00:11:58,920 Speaker 1: find it highly probative. I'm going to circle back to you, 175 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 1: doctor Angie that he is coming forward saying test these 176 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:06,959 Speaker 1: items for DNA. This is hey, USA. I think the 177 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:09,880 Speaker 1: Boulder police decided on day one that it was the 178 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:14,360 Speaker 1: parents that did this horrible thing and have not been 179 00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:19,719 Speaker 1: confused by facts or evidence on that conclusion. And the 180 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:23,040 Speaker 1: same people that concluded that on day one are still 181 00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:26,959 Speaker 1: there and either they don't want to be embarrassed if 182 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:30,640 Speaker 1: the answer isn't what they decided twenty five years ago, 183 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:34,240 Speaker 1: or they're just totally incompetent. I don't know, I really don't. 184 00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:39,000 Speaker 1: It's baffling to me that a police department would be 185 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:45,679 Speaker 1: so ignorant of the facts and dismissive of the facts, 186 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:51,520 Speaker 1: in fact misrepresent the facts publicly. It's crazy, hey, doctor 187 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:54,720 Speaker 1: Michelle du Pray, As I recall John and a Ramsay 188 00:12:54,960 --> 00:13:01,679 Speaker 1: still had a heiman. Rheiman was intact. Now, there was 189 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:04,839 Speaker 1: some evidence that she may have been molested, but her 190 00:13:04,920 --> 00:13:08,319 Speaker 1: hymen was intact, and I remember at the time saying, 191 00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:12,880 Speaker 1: in my mind, that may very well rule out John Ramsey, 192 00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:17,199 Speaker 1: because if a grown Mail had been molesting her, I 193 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:19,160 Speaker 1: don't think her hymen would have still been intact. What 194 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:21,760 Speaker 1: do you think about that, doctor Michelle Nancy, that's an 195 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:25,319 Speaker 1: excellent point. The problem is is that we do think 196 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:28,400 Speaker 1: that just because the hymen is intact, there was no molestation. 197 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:31,440 Speaker 1: But that is not necessarily true. Even for a man, 198 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:34,400 Speaker 1: the hymen is often very stretchable and it may not 199 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:38,240 Speaker 1: it may not break on the first attempt, so that 200 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:41,719 Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily rule out John Ramsey, But I agree with you. 201 00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:45,640 Speaker 1: But John Benett was six years old. If John Ramsey 202 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:48,559 Speaker 1: had been molesting her, I think you would have had 203 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:52,679 Speaker 1: more than one opportunity to do that, right. So, I mean, 204 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 1: I know what you're saying. Technically, it's true that the 205 00:13:56,040 --> 00:14:01,600 Speaker 1: first time a child is pinna traded in that way 206 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:04,319 Speaker 1: may not break the hymen. But over the course of 207 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:07,480 Speaker 1: six years, I mean, can we just get realistic. I mean, 208 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:09,800 Speaker 1: little green men may have come down from Mars and 209 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:13,360 Speaker 1: done it, doctor Dupree, but I don't think that's what happened. 210 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:15,840 Speaker 1: And what I'm saying is if a grown man had 211 00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:18,439 Speaker 1: been molesting a six year old child, a girl, you 212 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:24,880 Speaker 1: would assume, most likely her hyman would no longer be intact. 213 00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:27,680 Speaker 1: Would you agree with that statement? I do agree with 214 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:31,800 Speaker 1: that settlement. Dear Lord in Heaven. Listen. I'm a JD, 215 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:34,000 Speaker 1: not a DDS. I don't know how to pull a tooth, 216 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:35,800 Speaker 1: So you got to go with it a little bit. 217 00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:41,400 Speaker 1: So you're saying that, typically speaking, her hymen would have 218 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:46,920 Speaker 1: been intact. Yes, no, yes, probably, Yes, I'll go with probably. 219 00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:50,640 Speaker 1: I'm going to go with probably. So what I was 220 00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:54,840 Speaker 1: going to say earlier is that the fact that he 221 00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:59,680 Speaker 1: is coming forward and asking for DNA testing, And my 222 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:04,040 Speaker 1: mind is to his credit, because when you've got a purp, 223 00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:07,400 Speaker 1: they don't usually go on national TV and demand more 224 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:10,960 Speaker 1: investigation and more testing. They usually hide out and don't 225 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 1: say anything. Think about Scott Peterson, and I've said from 226 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 1: the get go that it's statistically virtually impossible that Burke Ramsey, 227 00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:24,040 Speaker 1: the brother of John and A, did this. I mean, 228 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:26,320 Speaker 1: if you look at the two of them growing up, 229 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 1: Burke is about this big round, his little arms and legs. 230 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:32,800 Speaker 1: At the time, she was killing like little sticks. He 231 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:36,800 Speaker 1: was pale and frel She was a firecracker. She was 232 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:40,400 Speaker 1: the one that was so robust and had all the energy. No, 233 00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:44,480 Speaker 1: I do never. I've never thought that Burke Ramsey killed 234 00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:48,760 Speaker 1: his sister. And because her hima was intact, it made 235 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:52,680 Speaker 1: me think that her father did not kill her. I 236 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:55,080 Speaker 1: don't know him and I don't know Burke, but I'm 237 00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:58,840 Speaker 1: just looking at it analytically. So in my mind at 238 00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:06,120 Speaker 1: the beginning, those two were somewhat cleared. It's not final, 239 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:09,280 Speaker 1: but that was my gut impression at the beginning. I 240 00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:12,000 Speaker 1: want you to hear more in our cut nine of 241 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:17,000 Speaker 1: John Ramsey speaking where I just came from Crime con 242 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:20,960 Speaker 1: Listen our cut nine. It's a cold case, and they 243 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 1: don't call it a cold case, but for all intensive 244 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:26,840 Speaker 1: purposes a cold case. Why they won't test the DNA 245 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:30,200 Speaker 1: sample of the samples that should be tested for DNA, 246 00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:35,040 Speaker 1: I don't know. It's bastard. If you rob a bank, 247 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:40,880 Speaker 1: you'll have the whole federal bureaucracy of crime after you. 248 00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:44,200 Speaker 1: If you murder a child in Mayberry, you remember the 249 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:47,960 Speaker 1: old Barney Fife Andy Griffith show. If you murder a 250 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:51,320 Speaker 1: child Mayberry, it's up to Barney, and if Barney doesn't 251 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:54,440 Speaker 1: ask for help, it cannot come in. We have eighteen 252 00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:58,280 Speaker 1: thousand police jurisdictions in this country. Each one's a rural kingdom. 253 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:01,760 Speaker 1: They have four or the crimes are committed to in 254 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:06,440 Speaker 1: their territory other than bankruptcies and a few other things. 255 00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:10,480 Speaker 1: But why we don't make as a society to barder 256 00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 1: of a child be a criminal offense at the highest 257 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:17,920 Speaker 1: level and bring all of our resources to bear on 258 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:21,679 Speaker 1: That is beyond me. Hearing John Ramsey straight back out 259 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:24,960 Speaker 1: to Carol McKinley, a reporter with the Colorado Gazette and 260 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:28,560 Speaker 1: the Denver Gazette, dot com. Carol, what do you make 261 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 1: of it? I mean, nobody's gonna like being compared to 262 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:34,080 Speaker 1: Barney five. Well, what I was going to say a 263 00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:36,840 Speaker 1: little earlier is the police said in their press release, 264 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:39,119 Speaker 1: and I've talked to a couple of sources, that there's 265 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:41,040 Speaker 1: really no reason to take the case out of their 266 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 1: hands because they're on top of the DNA situation. You know, 267 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:48,679 Speaker 1: they came out with a really rare press release. They 268 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 1: don't normally respond to anything, including John Ramsey, but this 269 00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:56,040 Speaker 1: time they decided to. They said the last time they 270 00:17:56,119 --> 00:17:59,080 Speaker 1: met with federal, state, and local authorities in March twenty 271 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:02,640 Speaker 1: twenty two, a month ago, they met and went over 272 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:05,360 Speaker 1: this DNA. And what they say is that they had 273 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:11,320 Speaker 1: been looking at the latest technology, including genealogical DNA, to 274 00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:13,399 Speaker 1: see if there might be a match. So what you 275 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:16,800 Speaker 1: do is you meet with all you said they had 276 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:20,119 Speaker 1: a meeting about it. Yes, they had a meeting. Have 277 00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:24,760 Speaker 1: they tested the items have been tested? Well, there is 278 00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:28,080 Speaker 1: no DNA. The DNA we're talking about, just to remind people, 279 00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:32,760 Speaker 1: is there was DNA found in blood in her underwear 280 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:38,120 Speaker 1: that had several unknown profiles in it that was similar 281 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:41,000 Speaker 1: to DNA that was found on the waist band of 282 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:45,600 Speaker 1: the Old Weird Boys Long John. She was found in 283 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:48,760 Speaker 1: that were urine stain, so it's similar, but it's never 284 00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:52,399 Speaker 1: matched anything in codis. So what John Ramsey, and what 285 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:55,840 Speaker 1: John Andrew rams you're asking is please check that DNA 286 00:18:56,040 --> 00:19:00,200 Speaker 1: with the garat, with the paint brush, with they she 287 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:03,480 Speaker 1: was wearing, and see if if there's a match or 288 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:05,920 Speaker 1: is this just arrant DNA and if there is a 289 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:11,199 Speaker 1: similar if there isn't a similar profile anywhere, even if 290 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:14,800 Speaker 1: it's genealogical, let's look into it. Well, the police say 291 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:18,080 Speaker 1: they are, So why are you calling for this? They're saying, 292 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:21,280 Speaker 1: stop calling to take this case out of our hands. 293 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 1: We've got this, That's what they're saying. Let me just 294 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:28,560 Speaker 1: ask this And this is a yes note. Okay, have 295 00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:37,280 Speaker 1: police tested the items? Ramsey? About six years ago, the 296 00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:41,159 Speaker 1: district attorney at the time, Stan Garnett, did send a 297 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:44,480 Speaker 1: bunch of items into the colorade of your investigation. He 298 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:48,600 Speaker 1: sent the garad in. So all the items that Ramsey's 299 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:51,919 Speaker 1: talking about have already been testing, some of them items 300 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:56,120 Speaker 1: some of them have but it's really uncle. So yeah, 301 00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:00,200 Speaker 1: that's what I'm saying. It's unclear it's unclear you are 302 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:02,280 Speaker 1: right now which items have been tested, But I know 303 00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:05,560 Speaker 1: the garat was sent in and that was important. I 304 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:11,520 Speaker 1: believe the flashlight might have been sent in. The cord 305 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:14,399 Speaker 1: that was around her neck and around her wrists were 306 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 1: sent in, and I think if they if a match 307 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:19,199 Speaker 1: had been found, we would know about it by now. 308 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:22,320 Speaker 1: That was sixty years ago. But John Ramsay saying there 309 00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:25,159 Speaker 1: are other items that they should test as well, and 310 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:28,920 Speaker 1: I don't know what they've tested since then. And I 311 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:32,800 Speaker 1: think also the Ramsey family wants to see someone else 312 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:35,879 Speaker 1: get involved, like an outside lab, like maybe even the 313 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:39,280 Speaker 1: FBI in a private lab. I'm I'm gonna digest what 314 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:43,119 Speaker 1: you just said, because it's a lot everybody. Karl McKenley 315 00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:46,280 Speaker 1: joining me from the Colorado Gazette. What I'm hearing, and 316 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:49,440 Speaker 1: I'll boil it down, is all the items have not 317 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:53,359 Speaker 1: been tested and the ones that were tested, right, But 318 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:55,800 Speaker 1: I don't think we know that. I just ask you 319 00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 1: these questions and you gave me an answer, and you 320 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:02,320 Speaker 1: said you don't think all the items he's asking about 321 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:06,480 Speaker 1: we're tested. You told me the chord, the garrote, the flashlight. 322 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:09,320 Speaker 1: You think we're tested. But Ramsey's asking for a lot 323 00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:14,000 Speaker 1: of other tests. And let me ask you to doctor 324 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:18,040 Speaker 1: Michelle Dupree. There have been a lot of advances in 325 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:21,879 Speaker 1: DNA in the last six years. I doubt very seriously 326 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 1: that some of the new technology has been used now. Also, 327 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:32,920 Speaker 1: we've got the genetic genealogy aspect that wasn't being used 328 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 1: six years ago, So that's a whole other avenue. Absolutely, Nancy, 329 00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 1: and that is one thing that I think definitely should 330 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:45,080 Speaker 1: be tried. And you know, in medicine we always value 331 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:47,879 Speaker 1: a second opinion. I know, I'm a former law enforcement 332 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:51,360 Speaker 1: officer and I understand jurisdictional issues, but you know why 333 00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:56,400 Speaker 1: such resistance. I mean, you know, they're a small department. 334 00:21:56,920 --> 00:21:59,680 Speaker 1: Let's get somebody in there with new technology, with some 335 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:02,560 Speaker 1: new ideas. You know, that's what cold case files do. 336 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:07,520 Speaker 1: They bring in additional people with expertise, not specifically in 337 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:10,680 Speaker 1: that department. Take a listener. This is johm and A's father, 338 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:14,760 Speaker 1: John Ramsey at Crime con Listen to our friends at Fox. Yeah, 339 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:17,440 Speaker 1: they decided immediately that it must be the parents because 340 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:19,440 Speaker 1: they were in the house, and it's always the parents. 341 00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:24,600 Speaker 1: Well that's that's not a good statistic Statistically, Yeah, sixteen 342 00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:28,160 Speaker 1: ers of the time, it's a caregiver or a close relative. 343 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:32,280 Speaker 1: It's never hardly ever a case for there's no history. 344 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:35,480 Speaker 1: If there's a murder of a child and it's a caregiver, 345 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 1: personal it's not probably a blood relative. It's a stepfather, stepfather, 346 00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:44,800 Speaker 1: and there's a long history leading up to that. The 347 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:47,200 Speaker 1: neighbors know there's a problem of the family. The police 348 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:49,639 Speaker 1: have been called before, the schools know there's a problem 349 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:53,800 Speaker 1: of the family. If that doesn't exist, it's almost unheard 350 00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:58,120 Speaker 1: of that a normal family would wake up and murder 351 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:00,440 Speaker 1: their child to go back to the normal it's just 352 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:04,560 Speaker 1: concerned and yet to say that, well, it must have 353 00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:08,199 Speaker 1: been the family, because it's always a families. You got 354 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:13,359 Speaker 1: to dissect that from you know. Um, I want to 355 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:16,680 Speaker 1: take a look at John Ramsey. Look, I don't know him. 356 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:21,960 Speaker 1: I don't know Burke, I didn't know Patsy, uh, Carol mccanley. 357 00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:28,200 Speaker 1: Isn't it true that at a certain point the Ramsey's 358 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:32,160 Speaker 1: refused to take Polly's you know? John Andrew Ramsey said 359 00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:35,200 Speaker 1: that he and John Ramsey went into the police department 360 00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:38,400 Speaker 1: and told a lot of what they knew. The weekend 361 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:42,240 Speaker 1: after John and Ay's body was found, they took a 362 00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:44,960 Speaker 1: po they did refuse at the beginning, but about a 363 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:48,240 Speaker 1: year and a half after she was found, you know, murdered, 364 00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:52,400 Speaker 1: he and Patsy Ramsey took a polygraph test. But they 365 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:55,680 Speaker 1: took three. And you know, Nancy as well as I do, 366 00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:59,400 Speaker 1: you can't shop around for polygraph tests to find someone 367 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:02,520 Speaker 1: who's going to tell you that what you said, you 368 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:06,399 Speaker 1: know that you're not lying. They took three tests. The 369 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:10,320 Speaker 1: first two were quote in conclusive, so yes, they did 370 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:14,560 Speaker 1: take polygraph tests. The third, I think it was ed 371 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:19,320 Speaker 1: Gilb out of California, came back conclusive that they were 372 00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:21,680 Speaker 1: telling the truth. And there was a big, old, huge 373 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:24,120 Speaker 1: to do about it. In Atlanta. I remember, they called 374 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:27,159 Speaker 1: a whole bunch of reporters. Everybody was there and they 375 00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:30,280 Speaker 1: announced that the that they had passed the polygraph were 376 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:35,520 Speaker 1: those was the last polly conducted by a polygrapher that 377 00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:41,879 Speaker 1: was hand picked by the Ramseys. Yes, Ed Gelb, Yeah, okay, um. 378 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:45,440 Speaker 1: I want to ask you, doctor Angela Arnold, what you 379 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:51,480 Speaker 1: make of John Ramsey speaking out publicly at crime conn 380 00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:56,560 Speaker 1: just happened, asking that this case be taken away from 381 00:24:56,640 --> 00:25:00,760 Speaker 1: local cops and that the items from this seen be 382 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 1: DNA tested by another agency, retested or tested for the 383 00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:12,240 Speaker 1: first time by another agency with new DNA technology, and 384 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:15,399 Speaker 1: that he will pay for it. Nancy, I agree with 385 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:19,000 Speaker 1: what you said about him doing thus. If he if 386 00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:24,280 Speaker 1: he's willing to do thus, it shows his lack of guilt. 387 00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:28,000 Speaker 1: He wants to find out once and for all who 388 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:30,720 Speaker 1: murdered his little girl when she was six years old. 389 00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:34,119 Speaker 1: The fact that he's paying for it also shows his 390 00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:38,040 Speaker 1: willingness to me to make this happen. He doesn't want 391 00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:40,720 Speaker 1: any he doesn't want any roadblocks in the way of 392 00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:44,359 Speaker 1: this happening. And I mean, Nancy, I would do it, 393 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:47,240 Speaker 1: wouldn't you. I would, I would want to. I would 394 00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:49,120 Speaker 1: want to do everything I could to find out who 395 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:53,320 Speaker 1: my little girl's killer was, and also to clear my 396 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:56,080 Speaker 1: own name. I think there's part of that in here too, 397 00:25:56,160 --> 00:26:00,600 Speaker 1: to clear his family's name, don't you now? There was 398 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:03,080 Speaker 1: a point Carol McKinley joining me, who knows the case 399 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:05,240 Speaker 1: like the back of her hand, joining me from the 400 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:09,440 Speaker 1: Colorado Gazette and the Denver Gazette dot Com. On Twitter, 401 00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:18,200 Speaker 1: She's at Carol A. M Carol A. Mc kinley, Carol A. McKinley, Carol, 402 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:22,400 Speaker 1: was there a point where a grand jury indicted the Ramseys. 403 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:26,600 Speaker 1: They did, um that that information even though that grand 404 00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:32,639 Speaker 1: jury was way way hush hush. A reporter file to 405 00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:36,800 Speaker 1: get get the charges released, and they were indicted. John 406 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:40,639 Speaker 1: and Patchy were indicted for a form of child abuse 407 00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:45,080 Speaker 1: resulting in death, almost a negligence charge. But the district 408 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:47,360 Speaker 1: attorney at the time, Alex Hunter, who was the original 409 00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:51,000 Speaker 1: attorney on the King We've been through fourth but the 410 00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:56,560 Speaker 1: original guy decided not to pursue those charges. Gerald Cohen 411 00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:01,760 Speaker 1: um they were not indicted on It seems to me 412 00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:06,840 Speaker 1: they were indicted on child abuse that allowed a murder 413 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:10,080 Speaker 1: to happen. I'm not quite sure what the grand jury 414 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:13,000 Speaker 1: was thinking. What do you make of that? I guess 415 00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:17,959 Speaker 1: it would be a type of felony murder. But well, Nancy, 416 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:23,439 Speaker 1: I see that Patsy Ramsey and perhaps John did abuse 417 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:27,359 Speaker 1: that poor child. I see that she was in beauty. 418 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:30,040 Speaker 1: Can you see that from three thousand miles away? I'm 419 00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:32,960 Speaker 1: curious because I see it in my mind in the 420 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:38,159 Speaker 1: same way. Now, well, he moved around the corner from 421 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:41,760 Speaker 1: where I was living, and that's another At the time 422 00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:44,760 Speaker 1: with their murders. So you okay, you know after that murder, 423 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:46,720 Speaker 1: are you saying they abused her by putting her in 424 00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:49,639 Speaker 1: the beauty pageants, not by just putting her in the 425 00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:53,800 Speaker 1: beauty pageants, but by making have her made up and 426 00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:56,119 Speaker 1: acting the way she does. And in my view with 427 00:27:56,200 --> 00:28:00,520 Speaker 1: others would obviously disagree, that is absolute child Abut what 428 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:05,119 Speaker 1: they do. You know what, the day that Daryl Cohen, 429 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:11,639 Speaker 1: no offense becomes our moral compass we have, we're in 430 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:15,560 Speaker 1: the crapper. I'm not a moral compass. So I would 431 00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:18,760 Speaker 1: not do that with my daughter because she's so so shy. 432 00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:23,639 Speaker 1: But I don't think that's going to rise to child abuse. 433 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:27,160 Speaker 1: I was actually asking you a legal question, Daryl Cary, 434 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:30,760 Speaker 1: a legal question about the indictment of the grand jury 435 00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:34,320 Speaker 1: many years ago of John and Patsy Ramsey. And it 436 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:36,520 Speaker 1: seems to me, based on what Carol is telling me, 437 00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:43,400 Speaker 1: that it was a charge similar to neglect or creating 438 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:46,960 Speaker 1: a circumstance where someone could kill her, you know, like 439 00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:49,480 Speaker 1: leaving a child alone in the parking lot in the 440 00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:52,160 Speaker 1: car and then they get kidnapped. The parents didn't do it, 441 00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:56,400 Speaker 1: but they created a circumstance. That's the way I understand 442 00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:59,080 Speaker 1: that indictment. I am not as familiar with that indictment 443 00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:01,400 Speaker 1: as I would like to be. But when you think 444 00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:04,680 Speaker 1: about it, it's Christmas Day, it's Christmas night, there are 445 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:08,400 Speaker 1: people staying in the house. And how in the world 446 00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:11,200 Speaker 1: would she be taken from her bedroom or wherever she 447 00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:15,520 Speaker 1: was and found to cease on the bottom floor. How 448 00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:18,600 Speaker 1: in the world would mob call without looking to see 449 00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:22,120 Speaker 1: that she was kidnapped and then the police arrived and 450 00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:26,480 Speaker 1: find her deceased. They said she wasn't shot, They said 451 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:30,719 Speaker 1: she wasn't stabbed. What does that tell you she was strangled? 452 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:33,200 Speaker 1: They stopped her if she was strangled or they put 453 00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:35,440 Speaker 1: a pillow over her face. She also had a horrible 454 00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:56,440 Speaker 1: blow to the head. Time stories with Nancy Grace. We 455 00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:59,240 Speaker 1: have one of the highest child murdering of in the 456 00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:02,200 Speaker 1: industrialized country in the world, and that we should be 457 00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:04,880 Speaker 1: ashamed of that. What are we gonna do about, dude. 458 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:06,880 Speaker 1: We live in a very small town. Now, there's seven 459 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:11,000 Speaker 1: police officers. They had a pretty tragic thing happened a 460 00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:13,479 Speaker 1: few months ago. They asked for help, Come help us, 461 00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:16,000 Speaker 1: We need help. We know we can't solve this on 462 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:18,920 Speaker 1: our own. They did the right thing Volder did not. 463 00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:21,800 Speaker 1: That's the one thing I'll fault the poor. They did 464 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:24,320 Speaker 1: not accept help from people and really knew what they 465 00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:27,720 Speaker 1: were doing. In could of helps as a society and 466 00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:30,760 Speaker 1: the murder of a child of federal effects so that 467 00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:36,400 Speaker 1: all the resources of the federal government FBI, etc. Could 468 00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:43,200 Speaker 1: come in automatically. You know, for example, the FBI has 469 00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:48,080 Speaker 1: a immediate response to a child abduction unit. That's great, 470 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:50,280 Speaker 1: but we had to do the same thing for the 471 00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:54,360 Speaker 1: murder of a child. Guys, John Ramsey, the father of 472 00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:58,080 Speaker 1: John and A Ramsey, is coming forward, stepping into the 473 00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:02,040 Speaker 1: spotlight and demanding the case be removed from Boulder Cops 474 00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:07,240 Speaker 1: and that DNA testing be done or redone on all 475 00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:12,160 Speaker 1: the items involved. What does it mean? Take a listen 476 00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:17,200 Speaker 1: to our cut twelve. This is John Ramsey speaking. You know, they, 477 00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:21,520 Speaker 1: I guess sadly made up their mind, you know, early, 478 00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:25,360 Speaker 1: early on and mind. Don't confuse them the facts. They 479 00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:34,280 Speaker 1: know the answer. That's dangerous. Firm society. Government moves based 480 00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:40,640 Speaker 1: on public pressure. Their reactionary. You know, our government tends 481 00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:46,800 Speaker 1: not to do things in anticipation of something. Enough public 482 00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:50,040 Speaker 1: pressures bought in the governor the state of Colorado to 483 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:52,960 Speaker 1: the right thing. They will do the right thing. That's 484 00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:54,920 Speaker 1: what we're hoping and I think that's what this petition 485 00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:58,920 Speaker 1: could accomplished. We can't do it our role, we're not enough, 486 00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:05,120 Speaker 1: there's not enough a muscle behind us. But people, large 487 00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:09,880 Speaker 1: numbers of people can make things happen. Carol McKinley joining 488 00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:14,800 Speaker 1: us from democasette dot com. Carol bottom line, do you 489 00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:19,720 Speaker 1: think John Ramsey's demand is going to happen? Wow? What 490 00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:24,280 Speaker 1: a great question. This case has gone through so many 491 00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:30,120 Speaker 1: topsy turvy tumbles. You know, I'm fifty fifty I'd like 492 00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:33,280 Speaker 1: to see it happen, But the Boulder Police are saying 493 00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:36,120 Speaker 1: it's not going to You're not going to get it. 494 00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:39,520 Speaker 1: We're already doing the job that we are supposed to 495 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:44,280 Speaker 1: be doing. We've already met with the FEDS. You can't 496 00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:46,440 Speaker 1: take it out of our met with the FADS. They 497 00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:48,800 Speaker 1: need to do more than meet with the FADS. They 498 00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:50,920 Speaker 1: need the FATS to take over the case. And I 499 00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:54,680 Speaker 1: agree with Carol. I think it's fifty fifty whether the 500 00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:57,720 Speaker 1: case is taken on by the FADS and whether there 501 00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:01,200 Speaker 1: will ever be new DNA testing. Well, the governor is 502 00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:03,240 Speaker 1: coming out and saying he'll take a look at this. 503 00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:05,920 Speaker 1: You know, there is a petition. I'm looking at it 504 00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:08,960 Speaker 1: right now. We've got about fifty nine hundred signatures on 505 00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:12,760 Speaker 1: that petition. I talked with the governor spokesman yesterday and 506 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:16,360 Speaker 1: he said the petition is still online, that they have 507 00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:19,800 Speaker 1: yet to send it to the governor. But Jared Polis 508 00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:23,720 Speaker 1: is from Boulder, He grew up there. He knows about, 509 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:29,880 Speaker 1: you know, this case from a personal perspective, and he 510 00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:34,680 Speaker 1: says he wants to find the killer. Now, we've had 511 00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:37,560 Speaker 1: many governors since John and A Ramsey died, one of 512 00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:40,480 Speaker 1: whom told the Ramseys to come out from behind their 513 00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:46,239 Speaker 1: lawyers and come clean. So lots of different reactions from 514 00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:49,640 Speaker 1: different governors in Colorado. Who knows whether this is going 515 00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:54,920 Speaker 1: to mean anything to the investigation. We wait as justice unfals. 516 00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:59,080 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace Crime Stories signing off, Goodbye, m