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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Holmes, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: works some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried bones.

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Speaker 2: Hey, Kate, how are you doing today?

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Speaker 1: I'm doing well. How about you?

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Speaker 2: I am hanging in there well good.

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Speaker 1: I had a terrible night's sleep last night, No terrible,

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Speaker 1: and it made me think about what your nighttime rituals are.

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Speaker 1: And the most important thing, does Cora sleep with you

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Speaker 1: and your wife or does Cora sleep somewhere else? Because

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Speaker 1: I think that's part of nighttime rituals for me. That's

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Speaker 1: the problem.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, we when we got Cora as a puppy,

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Speaker 2: she was kept in a crate at night and that

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Speaker 2: was her comfort level, she would purposely put herself in

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Speaker 2: the crate, and unfortunately, and not necessarily in a bad way.

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Speaker 2: You know, I thought, well, when we drove across country

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Speaker 2: to move to Colorado, I thought she would be most

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Speaker 2: at ease in her crate while in the vehicle. Well,

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Speaker 2: after that long drive, it was two days worth of driving,

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Speaker 2: and of course I'm stopping and letting her out, and

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Speaker 2: you know, in the hotel room, you know, we're spending time,

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Speaker 2: I'm together. But she never wanted to go into her

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Speaker 2: crate again.

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Speaker 1: She needs the suggling.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, she doesn't sleep with us, but she has a

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Speaker 2: bed on the floor in our bedroom and that's where

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Speaker 2: she sleeps.

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Speaker 1: Okay, And she never sneaks up and kind of does

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Speaker 1: a little snuggle thing because my dogs totally do that

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Speaker 1: all the time.

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Speaker 2: No, no, Cora is a ninety pound yellow lab jump

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Speaker 2: up on anything. And the reality is is we don't

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Speaker 2: want the dogs in the bed with us, or the

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Speaker 2: dog in the bed with us. So you know, Cora

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Speaker 2: has always been either in the crate or in her

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Speaker 2: own bed on the floor.

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, Well I can't get the dogs away

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Speaker 1: from me, both of them. And we did crate training

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Speaker 1: for a long time, and I know that that's important

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Speaker 1: and that works for a lot of people. But we

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Speaker 1: have Kavapoos and they are just on top of us,

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Speaker 1: the neediest, sweetest, cutest little dogs ever. They don't want

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Speaker 1: any independence, and so I have one kind of pressed

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Speaker 1: up against me ruby and then one at my feet.

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Speaker 1: And luckily they've come to an agreement, a gentleman's agreement

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Speaker 1: on how to deal with their sleeping arrangement, because they

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Speaker 1: can get a little jealous sometimes of each other. But

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Speaker 1: this has worked out well. But I am someone who

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Speaker 1: really likes to move around a lot, and so it

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Speaker 1: has gotten me. I'm not used to being as confined

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Speaker 1: as I am, so but I mean it's one of

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Speaker 1: the parts of being a pet owner is figuring out

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Speaker 1: the nighttime stuff. And you know what's comfortable for your family.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know. And with my sleeping arrangement, you know,

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Speaker 2: I have this whole pellow fortress. I flip flop. I'm

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Speaker 2: a side sleeper, so I probably one hundred times a

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Speaker 2: night I'm going from right side to left side. So

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Speaker 2: any animal right next to me would probably be flung

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Speaker 2: onto the floor.

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Speaker 1: But your wife hangs on that's good.

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Speaker 2: Barely.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think getting a lot of sleep is so important.

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Speaker 1: I've spent my whole life trying to figure out, you know,

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Speaker 1: night time rituals and sleep hygiene and all that stuff.

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Speaker 1: And part of it is just I always had a

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Speaker 1: fear when I was a kid of just not being

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Speaker 1: prepared for school and feeling run down. And you know,

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Speaker 1: I've suffered from insomnia off and on and for us,

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Speaker 1: you know, these episodes are so wonderful, but it takes

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Speaker 1: a lot for me to remember everything and keep up

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Speaker 1: with the dome of wisdom that is Paul Holes. And

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Speaker 1: so I have to get a lot of sleeps. So always,

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Speaker 1: I hope I'm on my game today.

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Speaker 2: For you, you always are on your game. It's amazing

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Speaker 2: what you are able to pull off.

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Speaker 1: Kate, We'll see. So forgive me if I bumble and

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Speaker 1: stumble a little bit. We all do that sometimes. But

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Speaker 1: this is my feet one of those times where I

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Speaker 1: have to have a little bit of extra grace from you.

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Speaker 1: So thank you in advance.

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Speaker 2: All right, Well, let's let's hear what you've got for

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Speaker 2: me today.

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Speaker 1: This is a story where there are a couple of

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Speaker 1: children who are victims in a family, and then there

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Speaker 1: is one child who's a hero the family. So a

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Speaker 1: mixed bag of emotions for me. But again, you know,

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Speaker 1: we tell these stories, the ones involved in kids just

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Speaker 1: because I think they're important. They always say something to me.

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Speaker 1: I pick them for a reason, so hopefully you feel

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Speaker 1: the same way. This is going back to late eighteen

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Speaker 1: hundred's Missouri. So let's go ahead and set the scene.

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Speaker 1: My dad grew up in Missouri. He grew up in Vandalia.

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Speaker 1: He went to the University of Missouri. He really was

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Speaker 1: very proud from being from that state. Have you been

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Speaker 1: to Missouri before?

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Speaker 2: I don't think so. I'm trying to remember, you know what,

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Speaker 2: I have a case that has a Missouri connection. But

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Speaker 2: now that I recall, i'd never stepped foot into the

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Speaker 2: state of Missouri.

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Speaker 1: Okay, that's our next trip. When we talk about the

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Speaker 1: imaginary road trip for you and I and alexis then

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Speaker 1: all three of us. Missouri is another stop. New York

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Speaker 1: is one, and Missouri's another. In New England's another. I've

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Speaker 1: already booked us for the next year and a half

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Speaker 1: of all of our stops. But Missouri, I think, is

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Speaker 1: it's a really great state. At least the parts that

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Speaker 1: I visited, you know, Van Daleia. I just remember having

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Speaker 1: really nice visits with my grandparents, who were from the

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Speaker 1: Depression era and had just massive gardens, tight knit family.

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Speaker 1: Not rural, certainly, but Missouri for me felt very much

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Speaker 1: like community, at least where my dad was from. And

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Speaker 1: that's a lot about what happens with this story. So

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Speaker 1: let's start from the beginning. I'm gonna set the scene,

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Speaker 1: which is pretty dramatic for the kinds of stories that

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Speaker 1: we usually tell. Eighteen ninety four Missouri. This is in

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Speaker 1: Lynn County, Missouri. It's a rural area, and it's about

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Speaker 1: five am on May eleventh, which is a Friday, and

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Speaker 1: there's a woman named Sally Carter and she hears a

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Speaker 1: knock at the door. Of course, she's not expecting anyone

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Speaker 1: this early in the morning. She's bracing herself for something.

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Speaker 1: But when she opens the door, she sees a six

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Speaker 1: year old girl. She said her name is Nellie Meeks.

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Speaker 1: So Sally takes a look at Nellie and she is

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Speaker 1: covered in dirt and her clothes are all torn. She's

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Speaker 1: bleeding from a deep cut on her forehead, and she

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Speaker 1: seems to be just in a daze, which completely freaks

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Speaker 1: out Sally, and she immediately takes the girl before even

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Speaker 1: getting the story, and tries to stop the bleeding from

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Speaker 1: her head. And she's trying to figure out what happened,

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Speaker 1: just to tell people this because I'm always aware of

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Speaker 1: trigger warnings. There's no sexual assault that happens here that

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Speaker 1: we know of, so that's not part of this story.

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Speaker 1: That was initially my first fear when I read about it,

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Speaker 1: just to pick it out, but this doesn't appear to

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Speaker 1: be the case. Nellie is trying to tell a story,

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Speaker 1: but she's barely making sense because of this head wound.

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Speaker 1: But she says that she has narrowly escaped death, and

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Speaker 1: she tries to retell this story, and so Sally sat

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Speaker 1: her down and is trying to clean up this wound.

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Speaker 1: Nellie says, about five hours ago, which is about midnight,

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Speaker 1: that there were two men who she didn't know at

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Speaker 1: the Meek's house, and this is her family, so she

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Speaker 1: says that even though she can't even describe how many

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Speaker 1: people are in her family at this point, she says,

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Speaker 1: the whole family's dead, all four of them, and they've

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Speaker 1: been buried in a nearby cornfield, and she tells Sally.

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Speaker 1: When Sally says, what happened to you? She says, this

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Speaker 1: six year old says, I was able to escape from

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Speaker 1: these two bad men because she played dead through the

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Speaker 1: night until they left, and then she was able to

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Speaker 1: sneak away and come to this woman's house. I mean,

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Speaker 1: holy shit, a six year old told this story, and

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Speaker 1: I will tell you in advance it's all true.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and this is at five am in the morning.

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Speaker 1: It is before the sun's up.

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Speaker 2: I'm wondering, did Sally's house have any lights on where

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Speaker 2: Nellie could just kind of go towards lights, or did

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Speaker 2: Nellie know exactly where Sally's house was in the dark.

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Speaker 1: I think she knew. I think she knew that there

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Speaker 1: was a house there, and maybe she had met this woman.

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Speaker 1: This was not a neighbor's that apparently she was close to.

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Speaker 1: The research doesn't indicate that Sally was woken up. She

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Speaker 1: was probably up, which would have been not unusual in eighteen,

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Speaker 1: you know, ninety four. She was up at five, so

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Speaker 1: maybe there was some candle light in the window or

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Speaker 1: a lamp or something that she saw, or maybe she

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Speaker 1: just went to the closest place. Who knows, but she

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Speaker 1: found her way there. According to a Murder by gas Light,

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Speaker 1: which is the wonderful blog that I like to use

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Speaker 1: every once in a while to try to find some

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Speaker 1: good stories. Missus Carter. Sally Carter didn't have a man

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Speaker 1: in the house, so her husband was not there, and

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Speaker 1: sounds like she was a widow. So this is what

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Speaker 1: she does. She sent her ten year old son, whose

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Speaker 1: name was Jimmy, to the nearby cornfield to confirm this story.

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Speaker 1: I mean, poor Jimmy, I guess that's the eighteen hundreds.

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Speaker 1: What else are you gonna do? But this kid goes

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Speaker 1: out in the dark to try to find four buried

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Speaker 1: bodies in a cornfield not far from his house.

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Speaker 2: Wow, yeah, you know my mind immediately goes to, well,

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Speaker 2: what if those two men were still there?

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Speaker 1: Well? Yeah, what I wonder is if missus Carter, if

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Speaker 1: Sally Carter was so concerned about Nellie's medical condition that

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Speaker 1: she didn't think it was a good idea to leave

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Speaker 1: her alone. I'm not sure sending Jimmy out to go

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Speaker 1: look around, but it's really, I'm sure a scary situation.

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Speaker 1: He walks over, he starts meandering around the field, which

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Speaker 1: is not too far away. You know somewhat close by,

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Speaker 1: and he comes back and he says, I didn't see anything.

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Speaker 1: I didn't find anything. But it's dark and he's ten.

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure if he's looking for a freshly doug grave.

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Speaker 1: If all of these details are right, and we find

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Speaker 1: out that it is, so, Jimmy comes back and says,

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Speaker 1: I didn't find anything, mom, and Nellie is still in

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Speaker 1: a daze.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know. And these cornfields can be huge, and

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Speaker 2: just if you're walking past the cornfield, if the corn

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Speaker 2: has actually grown to a certain height, even if you

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Speaker 2: have a disruption in the middle of that cornfield, if

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Speaker 2: you are at street level or at land level, just walking,

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Speaker 2: you can't see in the middle of the field. So

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Speaker 2: I can see where, even if you did have these

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Speaker 2: bodies buried and the corn being disrupted in the area

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Speaker 2: of the ingress egress aspects taking the bodies into the

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Speaker 2: cornfield and then of course escaping out of the cornfield,

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Speaker 2: you're going to disrupt certain parts of this corn But

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Speaker 2: I could see where that would be easily missed, particularly

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Speaker 2: at night. Now, I bet Jimmy, even at ten years old,

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Speaker 2: though he's probably working in the fields and has familiarity

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Speaker 2: with what this agricultural aspect is.

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Speaker 1: I agree, and I think that Jimmy was also very scared.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure he wasn't armed. He came back in, he said,

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Speaker 1: nothing's there. They both look at Nelly, I'm sure, thinking,

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Speaker 1: is this kid telling us of truth? Even though she

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Speaker 1: has a gash on her head. So she takes Jimmy

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Speaker 1: by the hand and says, let's go. I'll show you

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Speaker 1: exactly where it is. So in the dark of night,

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Speaker 1: while she's bleeding with the bandage on, she points down

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Speaker 1: to the ground and there they find after doing some

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Speaker 1: sort of digging, because you can see the bodies coming

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Speaker 1: through the corpses of four members of her family, the

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Speaker 1: entire family except for her. They were all piled together

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Speaker 1: in a shallow grave. And the killer or killers, she's saying,

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Speaker 1: it's two men, so let's assume she's right here. The

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Speaker 1: killers covered them up with straw, and that's how Nellie

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Speaker 1: was able to track down very quickly where this happened.

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Speaker 1: So there's this is the hard details for me. She

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Speaker 1: has an eighteen month old sister named Mary who's dead,

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Speaker 1: four year old sister named Hattie, thirty three year old

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Speaker 1: father named Gus, and her mother was thirty and her

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Speaker 1: name was DeLaura was pregnant, and they're all dead and

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Speaker 1: I can tell you cause of death in a minute,

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Speaker 1: but she is the only one who has survived so

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Speaker 1: so far, this story completely tallies with what she's been saying.

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Speaker 2: Right, you know, and considering Nellie's injury that you're describing

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Speaker 2: as a gash to her head, it's either a laceration

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Speaker 2: from a blow or an incisive wound, But chances are

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Speaker 2: I would think it's more from a lunch force object,

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Speaker 2: because I think if a knife had been used that

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Speaker 2: she would have had other injuries, more stab wounds, et cetera.

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Speaker 2: So I imagine that some, if not all, these family members

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Speaker 2: have probably been bludgeoned to a point, and whether or

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Speaker 2: not there's additional violence inflicted on them, you know, I'm

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Speaker 2: going to wait until you tell me what's going on.

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Speaker 1: So you're right there was a blunt object involved. So

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Speaker 1: let me tell you what happened. So the parents and

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Speaker 1: the four year old who was Hattie were all shot

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Speaker 1: and beaten. The eighteen month old was beaten to death

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Speaker 1: on her head with a rock, which I believe they

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Speaker 1: found nearby. So let's assume the rock was also used

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Speaker 1: on Nelly at the same time.

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Speaker 2: And is Nellie saying that this, this beating and the

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Speaker 2: shooting is occurring out in the cornfield.

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Speaker 1: No, The short answer is it sounds like they were

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Speaker 1: sort of dumped here, which to me is a testament

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Speaker 1: to Nellie playing dead through all of this. I can't

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Speaker 1: even imagine the trauma. And I know that I have

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Speaker 1: read about victim that's how they have stayed alive is

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Speaker 1: by playing dead. I could never put myself in that

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Speaker 1: position in my mind to think, how would you even

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Speaker 1: do that? Let alone, How does a six year old

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Speaker 1: do that in the middle of the night when her

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Speaker 1: parents are gone and there is no one there to

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Speaker 1: protect her. It seems just incredible to.

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Speaker 2: Me now it is amazing, and it's showing this child,

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Speaker 2: at age six, had tremendous resilience and actually control over

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Speaker 2: her own emotions in order to survive. Kind of getting

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Speaker 2: back to this body dump location, how far away is

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Speaker 2: it from Nellie's house.

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Speaker 1: The murder scene is very close to the house where

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Speaker 1: they live, but the murder scene is two miles from

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Speaker 1: the cornfield. And this is why we're saying that they

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Speaker 1: were murdered very close to their house. And then transported

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Speaker 1: to the cornfield and dumped in the cornfield about two

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Speaker 1: miles away. And the cornfield sounds like adjacent to Sally

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Speaker 1: Carter's house where Nellie goes to. Does that make sense?

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Speaker 2: Yes, And this is where I'm thinking about the practical aspects.

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Speaker 2: Let's assume Nellie's right, and there's two offenders. You have

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Speaker 2: five bodies, that's including Nelly who's playing dead. They have

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Speaker 2: to move these five bodies two miles away from where

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Speaker 2: they're killed in order to dispose of them. Well, they're

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Speaker 2: not carrying these two bodies. They have a transportation mechanism,

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Speaker 2: you know. And we're talking eighteen ninety four, so I'm

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Speaker 2: assuming they don't have a automobile. Nope, they must have something,

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Speaker 2: you know, the horse drawn, mule drawn, something like that.

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Speaker 2: So that's also part of, you know, investigatively. If I'm

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Speaker 2: now talking to witnesses, did you see a horse drawn

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Speaker 2: something or another in the middle of the night, did

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Speaker 2: you hear anything like that?

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Speaker 1: I think one of the issues with this story is

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Speaker 1: we are in eighteen ninety four where there were a

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Speaker 1: lot of horse drawn carriages and horse strong carts around.

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Speaker 1: Now you're right, we are in the middle of the night.

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Speaker 1: It would not have been that unusual, and I'm not

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Speaker 1: sure people sleeping in the area would have picked up

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Speaker 1: on it because it was such a common sound. It

307
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Speaker 1: could have been part of a dream. But I do

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Speaker 1: think that's going to be important going forward to think

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Speaker 1: about who these men were and do they have alibis,

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Speaker 1: because we will be able to identify them later on.

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Speaker 1: I want to turn to a medical question for you.

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Speaker 1: I mentioned before that the mother, who is thirty years

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Speaker 1: old De Laura, was heavily pregnant, and the medical question

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Speaker 1: I have is it says that she reportedly suffered a

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Speaker 1: miscarriage when she died, and it says the expelled fetus

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Speaker 1: is found among the carnage, the expelled fetus is found

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Speaker 1: in the grave site. Does that happen? Would that have

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Speaker 1: actually happened or would actually They're not saying that someone

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Speaker 1: took a knife and cut her open. There's no evidence

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Speaker 1: of knife work anywhere on this scene, So is that

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Speaker 1: a thing? Would that have happened?

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Speaker 2: I'm assuming when you say heavily pregnant, we're talking about

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Speaker 2: a woman in her third trimester. I have not worked

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Speaker 2: a case personally in which a fetus has been expelled.

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Speaker 2: But to textbook examples, there are situations to where the

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Speaker 2: unborn child is expelled, but it's usually a result of

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Speaker 2: decomposition as the gases build up internally inside the woman's body.

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Speaker 2: Now you have a force within that is forcing the fetus.

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Speaker 2: In terms of third trimester, I can't think of any

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Speaker 2: case example I've read about along those lines. So I

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Speaker 2: don't know. I think that, you know, falls in the

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Speaker 2: domain of a pathologist, you know, to see would there

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Speaker 2: be a mechanism which, you know, being subjected to violence.

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Speaker 2: Is there like a uterine contraction that could cause that

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Speaker 2: to happen. But having witnessed, you know, four kids being

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Speaker 2: born myself, and the amount of time and effort it

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Speaker 2: takes for the woman who's purposely trying to get the

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Speaker 2: baby out, you know, just this idea of some just

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Speaker 2: sudden amount of violence and the body responding to be

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Speaker 2: able to expel in essence an infant third trimester, I

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Speaker 2: have a hard time believing that.

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Speaker 1: Well, I don't know what happened, but they said that

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Speaker 1: the fetus was clearly visible, and she was, according to friends,

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Speaker 1: very pregnant before this happened. So Nelly points to her

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Speaker 1: family who is all lying dead under straw and a

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Speaker 1: shallow grave together, and Jimmy, of course is alarmed as

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Speaker 1: anybody would be. And the two of them, this six

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Speaker 1: year old and this ten year old, who are forever traumatized,

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Speaker 1: of course, run back to his mother's house, to Sally's house,

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Speaker 1: and jays she's right, And at his mother's command, Jimmy

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Speaker 1: Paul revers his way across the countryside and tells everybody

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Speaker 1: about this. That is how she gets the word out.

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Speaker 1: There's no We've talked about stories before where people ring

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Speaker 1: an emergency bell. There's no emergency bell here, so you know,

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Speaker 1: she is sending this boy out to go tell every buddy,

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Speaker 1: who I'm assuming now is awake. You know, there's sunlight now,

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Speaker 1: maybe there are roosters crowing, and he is warning everybody.

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Speaker 1: He gets to one of the neighbors named George Taylor.

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Speaker 1: He lives just about four hundred yards from the crime scene.

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Speaker 1: And George Taylor's, you know, tending to his cornfield, and

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Speaker 1: Jimmy says, my mom is telling everybody to be cautious.

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Speaker 1: There are two men maybe out there, ready to kill people.

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Speaker 1: And George says, what happened, and Jimmy details everything that happened,

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Speaker 1: there's dead bodies, and then George says, you know, how

365
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Speaker 1: do you know about all this? There are four people

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Speaker 1: in this grave. That's unbelievable. This is partially my cornfield too.

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Speaker 1: How do you know this? And Jimmy says, well, there's

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Speaker 1: a little girl who survived the attack and showed up

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Speaker 1: at the house. And this is why you don't send

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Speaker 1: a ten year old out to do stuff like this,

371
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Speaker 1: because now he is revealed. We don't know anything about George,

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Speaker 1: but now he is revealed to someone that there was

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Speaker 1: a survivor who possibly identify the killers. And if George

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Speaker 1: is involved in any way, I'm not saying he is,

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Speaker 1: but if he's involved in any way, this could be

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Speaker 1: a real danger to Nelly.

377
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Speaker 2: No for sure, especially under these circumstances, because right now

378
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Speaker 2: you don't have law enforcement responding at this time. You

379
00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:20,920
Speaker 2: have an essence. This is almost like as you mentioned

380
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Speaker 2: the Paul Revere thing. This is the neighborhood alert system.

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Speaker 2: Typically in today, you know, law enforcement would be on

382
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Speaker 2: that scene right away and Nellie would be in a

383
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Speaker 2: protective environment or a protected environment, but right now Nelly

384
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Speaker 2: is not. So if George is involved and he's going,

385
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Speaker 2: uh oh, one is still alive and she can identify me.

386
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Speaker 2: He has potential access to Nelly in order to eliminate

387
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Speaker 2: her as a witness.

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Speaker 1: Yep, Like I said, this is why we don't send

389
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Speaker 1: ten year olds out for various reasons to put out

390
00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:56,240
Speaker 1: these kinds of messages. This seems like a good time

391
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Speaker 1: to show you a crime scene photo. Now, as we know,

392
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Speaker 1: eighteen nine twenty four, photography was at its infancy, especially

393
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Speaker 1: crime scene photography. So you should, Paul Holes, be really

394
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Speaker 1: grateful that I can even give this to you.

395
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Speaker 2: I'm thrilled.

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Speaker 1: Rarely do I say anything about the eighteen hundreds, and

397
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Speaker 1: oh I have a photo pole, so this is a

398
00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:20,160
Speaker 1: little hard to see, but it's a black and white photo.

399
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Speaker 1: One thing that I noticed that I thought was interesting

400
00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:25,080
Speaker 1: I'd like your comment on is it seems like you

401
00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:27,280
Speaker 1: can see the two adults. It looks like Gus is

402
00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:30,119
Speaker 1: on the far left and there's a child in the middle,

403
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Speaker 1: and then the mom it appears to be on the

404
00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:35,119
Speaker 1: far right. I can at least see that both parents

405
00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:38,640
Speaker 1: seem to have their hands or their arms crossed. That

406
00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:42,520
Speaker 1: does not seem normal for a victim of violence. Am

407
00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:44,760
Speaker 1: I wrong. Is this some sort of atonement thing.

408
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Speaker 2: Well, the bodies have been placed here, and so the

409
00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:50,400
Speaker 2: offenders have arranged these bodies in the way that they

410
00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:53,439
Speaker 2: wanted to the crossing of the arms that appears to

411
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Speaker 2: be purposeful by the offender, considering these bodies have been moved,

412
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Speaker 2: you know, two miles transported in some sort of vehicle

413
00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:02,400
Speaker 2: to get to this location and then either carried from

414
00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:05,320
Speaker 2: the roadside into the middle of the cornfield, or the

415
00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:08,280
Speaker 2: vehicle itself, you know, went up to where this body

416
00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:10,840
Speaker 2: disposal is. But they're having to manipulate these bodies to

417
00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:14,040
Speaker 2: get them into this very shallow grape. I'm not even

418
00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:17,600
Speaker 2: sure there's any earth that has been moved, but more

419
00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:21,160
Speaker 2: deposited on the surface and then hey piled on top

420
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Speaker 2: of them. I am seeing the arms crossed. I'm seeing

421
00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:27,600
Speaker 2: that at least the three bodies, the two adults and

422
00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:30,080
Speaker 2: the child, appear to be fully clothed. The clothing does

423
00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:34,480
Speaker 2: not appear to be disrupted. Also notable that I can see,

424
00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:39,160
Speaker 2: particularly on the mother, is the blood flows out of

425
00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:43,160
Speaker 2: the nose and mouth area appear to be somewhat consistent

426
00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:46,040
Speaker 2: with her laying on her back, and whether or not

427
00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:48,399
Speaker 2: that occurred where she laid on her back at the

428
00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:50,919
Speaker 2: original murder scene, and that those blood flows dried and

429
00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:56,280
Speaker 2: then she's transported or she still possibly was bleeding at

430
00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:58,879
Speaker 2: the time she's deposited here, and you still you have

431
00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:02,359
Speaker 2: some blood flows out, which may mean that she didn't

432
00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:05,560
Speaker 2: die right away, she died while she was laying here

433
00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:09,560
Speaker 2: in situ. But they are arranged. They're not just dumped,

434
00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:12,359
Speaker 2: you know. This is what's significant to me is, you know,

435
00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:15,280
Speaker 2: typically when you have multiple bodies being thrown into a grave,

436
00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:17,480
Speaker 2: you just see them being dumped on top of each

437
00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:20,639
Speaker 2: other in a halfhazard manner. These three bodies are laid

438
00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:24,000
Speaker 2: right next to each other. They're all oriented in the

439
00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:27,440
Speaker 2: same position, face up, heads all, you know, to the

440
00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:30,640
Speaker 2: right side of the photograph, feet towards the left. So

441
00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:34,439
Speaker 2: the offenders kind of place them in a very regular manner.

442
00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:38,760
Speaker 1: And it's interesting also to me. I can't see the

443
00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:41,879
Speaker 1: clothing clearly of the mother and of the little girl.

444
00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:44,159
Speaker 1: It could be daytime clothing. The little girl looks like

445
00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:46,000
Speaker 1: she could The four year old looks like she could

446
00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:49,680
Speaker 1: be wearing a dress. But the father pretty clearly to me,

447
00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:51,879
Speaker 1: is not wearing night clothes. It looks like he's wearing

448
00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:54,920
Speaker 1: his suit. This is midnight that Nelly says, these men

449
00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:58,400
Speaker 1: came to the door. I'm wondering if this is people

450
00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:01,320
Speaker 1: who are known to them, because at least the father

451
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:04,200
Speaker 1: is dressed in what appears to me to be daytime clothing.

452
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:08,840
Speaker 2: This is where e victimology does need to be studied

453
00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:11,439
Speaker 2: a little bit. Is what was the family's routine? You know,

454
00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:14,280
Speaker 2: what time did they normally go to bed? Would the

455
00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:17,399
Speaker 2: father come home, you know, and stay in his suit

456
00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:19,639
Speaker 2: up until the time he changed in order to go

457
00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:22,520
Speaker 2: to bed, you know. So that's where if there's anybody

458
00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:25,280
Speaker 2: out there that knows that, since the entire family you know,

459
00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:27,520
Speaker 2: is dead except for a six year old, you know,

460
00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:30,040
Speaker 2: hopefully Nellie would be able to answer those questions because

461
00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:34,920
Speaker 2: that can give timeline information about you know, when this happened.

462
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:37,600
Speaker 2: You know, a six year old telling me midnight. Well,

463
00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:40,880
Speaker 2: I'm not necessarily going to take that as gospel. Also,

464
00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:45,440
Speaker 2: you know, understanding how the family routine during the evening,

465
00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:48,800
Speaker 2: it could inform me. You know, Okay, as you were mentioning,

466
00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:52,000
Speaker 2: is this indicative that they were expecting somebody to come

467
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:56,000
Speaker 2: so they stayed in their daytime clothes as opposed to

468
00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:59,360
Speaker 2: going through their nightly routine and then somebody just unexpectedly

469
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:00,680
Speaker 2: showing up the front door.

470
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:03,720
Speaker 1: You're right, and Nelly turns out to be a wealth

471
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:07,640
Speaker 1: of information for investigators. Speaking of Nelly, I think it's

472
00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:10,520
Speaker 1: always important to talk about the victims and the survivors,

473
00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:13,640
Speaker 1: and I think in this story it is startling because

474
00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:17,399
Speaker 1: I often forget ages once my kids have passed a

475
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:19,280
Speaker 1: certain age. I don't remember what they look like. I

476
00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:21,960
Speaker 1: have a hard time, no, no, figure, I have a

477
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:24,600
Speaker 1: hard time figuring out the ages of kids, to be honest.

478
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:27,320
Speaker 1: So I wanted to show you that is Nelly.

479
00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:30,240
Speaker 2: Oh and so is that Nelly around the time of

480
00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:31,040
Speaker 2: the homicides?

481
00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:34,680
Speaker 1: I believe so because this is a pose and ended

482
00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:38,480
Speaker 1: up in the newspapers. This looks six to me. Ish

483
00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:41,200
Speaker 1: could be a little bit younger, but not far off.

484
00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:45,719
Speaker 2: No, I would say, yes, you know, she physically looks

485
00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:49,040
Speaker 2: like she's right around six. I think what strikes me,

486
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:52,040
Speaker 2: you know, is her state of dress, her facial expression.

487
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:56,280
Speaker 2: She almost looks like she's more mature than a six

488
00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:56,840
Speaker 2: year old.

489
00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:59,560
Speaker 1: Very serious looking. Yes, yes, of course they had to

490
00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:02,200
Speaker 1: stand there pictures for a very long time, so nobody

491
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:05,840
Speaker 1: tended to smile in these pictures, but she does look mature.

492
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:08,520
Speaker 1: And here are her parents, Gusin de Laura, and this

493
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:11,120
Speaker 1: was obviously old because she's not pregnant in this photo.

494
00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:14,119
Speaker 1: But they're of course very serious also, but he looks

495
00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:16,760
Speaker 1: like he's in decent shape. I don't know. The two

496
00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:20,240
Speaker 1: adults and three children that they've attacked. There's a lot

497
00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:22,480
Speaker 1: of confidence, and we have to assume that she's right

498
00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:23,439
Speaker 1: about the two men.

499
00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:26,399
Speaker 2: Let's say you have two adult males, but I believe

500
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:29,840
Speaker 2: you mentioned that they had been shot at least the

501
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:33,240
Speaker 2: deceased victims, right, So now you have a firearm that's

502
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:37,760
Speaker 2: introduced into this this crime aspect, and the firearm is

503
00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:41,600
Speaker 2: the ultimate control mechanism. So the children are going to

504
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:46,119
Speaker 2: listen to this adult offender, this male offender, and these

505
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 2: two adults likely they see the gun, even if it's

506
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:53,720
Speaker 2: just one offender, they're probably going to do what that

507
00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:57,000
Speaker 2: man says. Now you have two men, do we have

508
00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:00,720
Speaker 2: two guns here? You know? So these two men have

509
00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:03,440
Speaker 2: absolute control over the victims.

510
00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:20,080
Speaker 1: Let's go back to the story. George Taylor, the man

511
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:24,600
Speaker 1: that Jimmy encountered first, says, oh my gosh, I know

512
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:28,600
Speaker 1: this family, it's the Meeks family. He's a tenant farmer,

513
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:33,080
Speaker 1: and he told Jimmy Gus is one of his employees,

514
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:35,560
Speaker 1: because Gus, to a certain extent, is a tenant farmer,

515
00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:38,159
Speaker 1: and so George has sort of lent out land to

516
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:41,879
Speaker 1: him to farm. So George says, I need to see

517
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:44,959
Speaker 1: what happened, and so he asks this ten year old

518
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:47,560
Speaker 1: to show them where the bodies are. And he says,

519
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:50,040
Speaker 1: instead of going through my cornfield and ruining all this

520
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:53,080
Speaker 1: corn let's go hitch a horse and we'll go and

521
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:57,320
Speaker 1: ride through the property. And he says, I will figure

522
00:27:57,320 --> 00:27:59,400
Speaker 1: out where this is and I'll come back and get you.

523
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:02,520
Speaker 1: Because Jimmy points to where this is and George goes

524
00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:07,040
Speaker 1: out and he looks, and George never returns, which is suspicious.

525
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:10,919
Speaker 1: Later on, he's seen riding his horse in a nearby city,

526
00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:13,639
Speaker 1: but George does not come back for Jimmy, and eventually

527
00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:16,600
Speaker 1: Jimmy goes home. We don't know what that means yet,

528
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:19,280
Speaker 1: but we do know that now you've got at least

529
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:22,440
Speaker 1: one person who could be a suspect who knows that

530
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:26,359
Speaker 1: the little girl survived. So not long after, Nelly goes

531
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:30,680
Speaker 1: to Sally's house she emerges from the cornfield. Investigators are

532
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:32,800
Speaker 1: on the scene, such as they were in eighteen ninety

533
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:35,760
Speaker 1: four in rural Missouri, which you just could have been

534
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:39,080
Speaker 1: a deputy whoever was around on duty. It could have

535
00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:42,680
Speaker 1: been a very sort of rough type of force involved.

536
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:46,720
Speaker 1: And they find on a nearby road two miles from

537
00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:50,840
Speaker 1: the cornfield a troubling piece of evidence. So on a

538
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:54,160
Speaker 1: stretch of road called Jenkins Hill, there's a lot of grass,

539
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:57,960
Speaker 1: it's a hill on a roadside, and there are very

540
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:02,320
Speaker 1: large pools of blood. And in this grave where the

541
00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:04,640
Speaker 1: family is buried, there was not a lot of blood,

542
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:07,800
Speaker 1: so as I mentioned before, that was not the crime scene.

543
00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:11,440
Speaker 1: This appears to be the crime scene. They find large

544
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:14,560
Speaker 1: pools of blood, they find what we presume is going

545
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:17,680
Speaker 1: to be the murder weapon, which is I have never

546
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:22,360
Speaker 1: heard of this before, a bulldog revolver with three empty chambers.

547
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:26,360
Speaker 1: They find brain matter, and they find that bloody rock.

548
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:31,880
Speaker 1: So whatever happened here, the killers left behind both weapons.

549
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:34,560
Speaker 2: Let me look up this bulldog and.

550
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:36,959
Speaker 1: Make sure you put in eighteen hundreds too, because it

551
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:39,680
Speaker 1: could have been different than whatever they say it is now.

552
00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:42,280
Speaker 1: British Bulldog, that's what I see.

553
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:47,040
Speaker 2: No it's right. Yeah. So there's the original this web

554
00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:51,760
Speaker 2: Leaf forty five caliber British Bulldog revolver or manufacturer of

555
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:54,480
Speaker 2: the eighteen seventies, and then there was other British and

556
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 2: United States firearms manufacturers that in essence copied it. However,

557
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:03,280
Speaker 2: it is a five shot revolver that's chambered typically we

558
00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:06,720
Speaker 2: don't know in this case it's chambered at forty five

559
00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:09,560
Speaker 2: or was chambered in a four to four to two

560
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 2: basically like a forty four. But you know, these are

561
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:16,560
Speaker 2: this is a large caliber revolver and it was left behind,

562
00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:17,240
Speaker 2: but they.

563
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:19,800
Speaker 1: Called it a pocket revolver, which I thought was interesting.

564
00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:22,080
Speaker 1: So it's not particularly large because it could fit in

565
00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:24,120
Speaker 1: your pocket, but it sounds like, according to you, it's

566
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:27,280
Speaker 1: very powerful, right, it wouldn't have a problem taking down

567
00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:28,440
Speaker 1: three out of four people.

568
00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:32,440
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, the caliber is large. The revolver itself is small.

569
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:34,840
Speaker 2: It's only got a two and a half inch barrel,

570
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:37,720
Speaker 2: you know. So you know, typically when you think of

571
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:40,880
Speaker 2: a revolver that's not meant to go into a pocket,

572
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:43,640
Speaker 2: it's got a logger barrel. The logger the barrel, you know,

573
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:48,080
Speaker 2: the more accurate you are with that gun, typically, and

574
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:51,800
Speaker 2: this is somewhat of a minor issue, the force of

575
00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:54,600
Speaker 2: the ignition of the gunpowder is able to propel the

576
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:58,320
Speaker 2: bullet faster out of a logger barrel than a short barrel,

577
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:02,120
Speaker 2: So you know, a pocket revolver is generally meant for

578
00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:05,960
Speaker 2: concealment as well as for short range shooting.

579
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:10,280
Speaker 1: Well, they sounded like this was premeditated. This sounded like

580
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:12,800
Speaker 1: they were prepared, at least with a weapon. I don't

581
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:15,000
Speaker 1: know if they were planning to kill the family and

582
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:18,720
Speaker 1: for what reason, we don't know yet. But the police,

583
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:21,760
Speaker 1: the investigators examined the scene. As I said, there as

584
00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:24,480
Speaker 1: brain matter. They're assuming it came from the eighteen month

585
00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:27,920
Speaker 1: old baby because she was beaten with a rock. They

586
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:31,600
Speaker 1: then say, well, clearly Nelly was beaten with that rock.

587
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:34,240
Speaker 1: Also because of the big gash on her forehead. She

588
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 1: also has a huge bruise on her back, and the

589
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:41,080
Speaker 1: investigators start to ask her a lot of questions. She's

590
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:43,200
Speaker 1: still in a daze, of course, six year old with

591
00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 1: a head wound, but she starts to unravel this story,

592
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:49,040
Speaker 1: and I know you're gonna have a lot of questions

593
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:51,760
Speaker 1: that we find answers to a little bit later. But

594
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:55,160
Speaker 1: right now, you, Paul Holes, are an eighteen ninety four investigator,

595
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:57,400
Speaker 1: and you're just trying to get anything that makes sense

596
00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:01,440
Speaker 1: out of this kid. So investigators say what happened, and

597
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:04,600
Speaker 1: she said, I don't remember how we ended up in

598
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:08,240
Speaker 1: a horse and wagon with these two men around midnight,

599
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 1: but we did. And she said, this is what happened.

600
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:13,840
Speaker 1: We were going up the hill, which was Jenkins Hill.

601
00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:18,960
Speaker 1: The man without whiskers said his feet were cold, and

602
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:21,720
Speaker 1: he decided to get out and walk along the side

603
00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 1: of the wagon, and when he did, he shot Papa.

604
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:28,600
Speaker 1: Papa I guess was not fatally shot. Then he jumped

605
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:32,160
Speaker 1: out and started to run from the wagon, and then

606
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:35,840
Speaker 1: the mom screamed and started to jump out, but they

607
00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:38,720
Speaker 1: shot the mom. They shot the dad again, and then

608
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:41,280
Speaker 1: they shot the sister, and then they hit me in

609
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:43,720
Speaker 1: the head and I went to sleep. And she doesn't

610
00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:46,000
Speaker 1: say anything about the eighteen month old because that probably

611
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:50,640
Speaker 1: happened after she got knocked out. So she was knocked

612
00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:53,320
Speaker 1: out at the time. She said, I came to a

613
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:56,680
Speaker 1: little while later and I was in the wagon still,

614
00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:00,400
Speaker 1: And they said that at this point, Nell is not

615
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:05,160
Speaker 1: particularly helpful. The investigators guessed that after this happened, and

616
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:07,080
Speaker 1: we don't know if this was their plan or what

617
00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:10,120
Speaker 1: was happening. We just know that there's a chaotic scene happening.

618
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:14,120
Speaker 1: After it happened, the two killers loaded the bodies into

619
00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:16,760
Speaker 1: the wagon, drove the two miles to the cornfield. They

620
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:21,520
Speaker 1: unloaded the bodies and piled them into a shallow grave.

621
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:25,760
Speaker 1: According to a police source, there was this grave there

622
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:29,360
Speaker 1: that had already been dug beforehand, but the size of

623
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:33,560
Speaker 1: it was small enough that it seemed intended for just

624
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:36,400
Speaker 1: one person. So now we have to figure out if

625
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:39,560
Speaker 1: that's true that this was a grave that was intentionally

626
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:42,040
Speaker 1: dug for one person and they tried to get all

627
00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:44,320
Speaker 1: four family members in it and then couldn't. Then covered

628
00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:47,200
Speaker 1: it up with Straw, who was the one person in

629
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:48,880
Speaker 1: this family that was being targeted.

630
00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:53,280
Speaker 2: Circumstances, as Nelly describes them, You've got this entire family

631
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:59,200
Speaker 2: in this horse drawn wagon, and what is compelling or

632
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:03,760
Speaker 2: telling to me is that the wagon stops and one

633
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:07,280
Speaker 2: man gets out and does it sort of a almost

634
00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:11,600
Speaker 2: a blitz attack, and shoots the biggest threat of the group,

635
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:15,719
Speaker 2: the man Gus. What's standing out to me is here,

636
00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:18,160
Speaker 2: you've got two men, You've got a you know, at

637
00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:21,960
Speaker 2: least one is armed with a gun. Oftentimes if they

638
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:25,759
Speaker 2: have the intent to kill or they're trying to extract information,

639
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:29,800
Speaker 2: it is a direct confrontation. The gun is out, get down,

640
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:32,160
Speaker 2: I'm gonna kill you. Tell me what I want or

641
00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:35,120
Speaker 2: give me what I want. Then the shooting. It's almost

642
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:38,799
Speaker 2: as if these offenders did a ruse. They lured the

643
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:42,120
Speaker 2: family into this wagon and that at a certain point

644
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:44,920
Speaker 2: one offender decided this is the time to get out

645
00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:49,680
Speaker 2: and shoot Gus. So this is interesting because it sounds

646
00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:54,560
Speaker 2: like this is to eliminate the family, and maybe Gus

647
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 2: was the primary target, but they couldn't separate Gus away

648
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:01,120
Speaker 2: from his family under this ruse, And so now they're

649
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:03,200
Speaker 2: dealing we got the whole family. How are we going

650
00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:06,279
Speaker 2: to deal with this? And they kind of had to

651
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:11,319
Speaker 2: tweak their approach on the fly. And now you've got

652
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:14,439
Speaker 2: more bodies than what the grave they dug ahead of time.

653
00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:16,680
Speaker 2: But they just improvised, you know, well, we're still going

654
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:18,560
Speaker 2: to go to that grave site and we'll just hide

655
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:19,600
Speaker 2: it with the straw.

656
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:22,800
Speaker 1: And I had wondered if they had known the whole family,

657
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:25,680
Speaker 1: and that's why they had to eliminate everybody, at least

658
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:29,239
Speaker 1: the mom also because she might have been able to

659
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:31,040
Speaker 1: recognize them. Also, we don't know yet.

660
00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:34,600
Speaker 2: Possibly, however, if they're stuck having to kill Gus in

661
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:38,440
Speaker 2: front of his entire family, even if the family doesn't

662
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:41,080
Speaker 2: know who they are, I can see them just going

663
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 2: we've got to eliminate the witnesses because they could describe us.

664
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:48,520
Speaker 2: They can give the circumstances investigators might get enough information

665
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:50,520
Speaker 2: to identify who we are exactly.

666
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:54,319
Speaker 1: So as the police continue to press Nelly, and as

667
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:57,400
Speaker 1: her wound gets better and she gets some rest, she

668
00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:01,359
Speaker 1: unravels some more details. It is harrowing. I mean, this

669
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:04,360
Speaker 1: little girl and her ability to retell this story and

670
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:08,080
Speaker 1: remember things as time goes on is amazing. So the

671
00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:11,960
Speaker 1: last thing that she told investigators was her dad was shot,

672
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:14,040
Speaker 1: her mom was shot, the four year old was shot.

673
00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:17,040
Speaker 1: She was hitting the head and she went to sleep,

674
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:19,359
Speaker 1: and she didn't know what happened to the eighteen month old,

675
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:21,719
Speaker 1: but we're assuming they wanted to stop the crying, which

676
00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:24,799
Speaker 1: we're assuming happened, and beat her to death too. So

677
00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:28,520
Speaker 1: Nelly comes too, and she is in the wagon and

678
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:33,240
Speaker 1: she said that you know, they're traveling along, the wagon

679
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:35,879
Speaker 1: comes to a stop, and this is when Nelly plays dead.

680
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:39,120
Speaker 1: She said, she and her family members were carried off

681
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:41,960
Speaker 1: the wagon. She's pretending to play dead, but she remembers

682
00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:45,000
Speaker 1: all of this, and she said everyone is covered up

683
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:48,120
Speaker 1: with straw, which we know what we didn't know. What

684
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:51,200
Speaker 1: I thought first initially when we got into this case

685
00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:53,520
Speaker 1: was that this was just a cover up. They put

686
00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:55,600
Speaker 1: them in this grave that was meant for one person

687
00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:57,480
Speaker 1: and said, well, we can't cover all of them up.

688
00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:00,080
Speaker 1: Let's just use their straw. That is not what they

689
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:03,600
Speaker 1: wanted to do. She says she could hear the two

690
00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:07,480
Speaker 1: men struggling to start a fire. Fire, Yes, did you,

691
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:11,239
Speaker 1: suspec I did not think that, But it was, unfortunately

692
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:13,839
Speaker 1: for the two killers, a very damp and misty night,

693
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:17,080
Speaker 1: and they were cursing and cussing. She said. When the

694
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:19,600
Speaker 1: man put me in the straw, the one with the whiskers,

695
00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:22,600
Speaker 1: that's the only real description she had. The one with

696
00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:25,359
Speaker 1: the whiskers kicked me on the back and said they

697
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:29,840
Speaker 1: are all dead now, them damn villain sons of bitches.

698
00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:32,239
Speaker 1: So we'll talk about a motive in a minute. But

699
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:35,480
Speaker 1: somebody was mad. They covered me up and I could

700
00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:38,680
Speaker 1: not breathe good. I heard them say it would not

701
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:43,720
Speaker 1: burn as it would not catch So they just left

702
00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:46,840
Speaker 1: and that was it, and that's when she climbed out. Later,

703
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:49,480
Speaker 1: when she heard the wagon go away, that's when she

704
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:51,720
Speaker 1: climbed out and went to Sally's house.

705
00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:54,799
Speaker 2: Right, So, now they had to improvise in order to

706
00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:57,160
Speaker 2: get rid of the body. They tried to use the

707
00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:00,400
Speaker 2: straw's fuel, but they couldn't get it to catch fire.

708
00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:03,200
Speaker 2: This is where their plan really goes awry. You know,

709
00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:05,879
Speaker 2: first it's, oh, we've got the whole family with us,

710
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:09,080
Speaker 2: and right now can't tell you why they couldn't separate

711
00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:11,319
Speaker 2: if it was just intended to be one person, and

712
00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:14,319
Speaker 2: I'm assuming that's Gus. Right now, they weren't able to

713
00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:17,280
Speaker 2: separate the family under the ruse. Now that they've killed

714
00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:21,040
Speaker 2: this entire family, they are in a scramble to figure out, well,

715
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:22,879
Speaker 2: what are we going to do with the bodies? And

716
00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:26,120
Speaker 2: you know, this idea of the straw being too damp

717
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:29,239
Speaker 2: to light the fire, you know, that's just part of

718
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:33,120
Speaker 2: the improvisation didn't work out, And so now they're abandoning things.

719
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:36,360
Speaker 2: And they must have been in somewhat of a rush

720
00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:40,480
Speaker 2: there's a level of inexperience in terms of assessing whether

721
00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:44,280
Speaker 2: or not Nelly is dead. This is where my thought

722
00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:49,640
Speaker 2: process is, there's a revenge aspect to this homicide. One

723
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:53,360
Speaker 2: of these family members, likely Gus, did them so wrong

724
00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:56,240
Speaker 2: or one of them so wrong that it was worth

725
00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:59,359
Speaker 2: killing Gus, and then they end up having to take

726
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:01,800
Speaker 2: on the whole thing family and kill the whole family.

727
00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:06,080
Speaker 2: Part of the interesting aspect to this is post offense

728
00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:12,120
Speaker 2: behavior because these guys are driving away recognizing that their

729
00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:16,799
Speaker 2: original plan didn't go the way they were hoping, and

730
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:20,360
Speaker 2: they have to be nervous about, well, what's going to happen,

731
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:23,480
Speaker 2: you know, because now well the bodies are going to

732
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:26,440
Speaker 2: be identifiable, The family's going to be found eventually in

733
00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:28,040
Speaker 2: this cornfield, and.

734
00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:31,719
Speaker 1: It gets worse for these two killers because you know,

735
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:34,480
Speaker 1: we were right about our instincts about who they know,

736
00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:37,280
Speaker 1: and you know how personal is this and did Gus

737
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:41,920
Speaker 1: do something? Because the police say, once Nellie has recovered,

738
00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:44,879
Speaker 1: which takes her a good twenty four to thirty six

739
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:47,520
Speaker 1: hours sort of to just get out of this days,

740
00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:50,640
Speaker 1: they say, do you know who the man with the

741
00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:53,800
Speaker 1: whiskers or the man without the whiskers? Are, and she said, yes,

742
00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:57,920
Speaker 1: I do. I've seen him a lot because he owns

743
00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:01,320
Speaker 1: the land that my father farms. And his name is George,

744
00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:04,120
Speaker 1: and I know his brother William, and it was the

745
00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:06,720
Speaker 1: two of them, and George is the one who found

746
00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:12,280
Speaker 1: out from Jimmy that Nelly survived. This happens quickly, Paul,

747
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:15,600
Speaker 1: in thirty six hours, they figure this out. There is

748
00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:19,920
Speaker 1: a group of five hundred men who show up scouring

749
00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:23,080
Speaker 1: the area for these two brothers who are in the

750
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:24,200
Speaker 1: wind Okay.

751
00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:28,440
Speaker 2: And William, I take lives locally as well, and he's fled,

752
00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:30,640
Speaker 2: just like we know George has fled.

753
00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:35,319
Speaker 1: Correct, And it sounds like once they interviewed Jimmy, and

754
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:38,719
Speaker 1: Jimmy said, I told that guy George about this, and

755
00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:41,480
Speaker 1: they said what happened and Jimmy said, well, initially he

756
00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:43,480
Speaker 1: wanted me to take him to the bodies, but then

757
00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:46,280
Speaker 1: he said you stay here, I'll hop in my wagon.

758
00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:48,719
Speaker 1: And now they think that George was out there in

759
00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:52,800
Speaker 1: the cornfield trying to cover up his wagon's tracks where

760
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:55,840
Speaker 1: they found him, and you know, someone like manipulate the evidence.

761
00:40:56,480 --> 00:41:00,319
Speaker 1: And now they are quickly indicted these two guys, and

762
00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:05,000
Speaker 1: the investigators know them very very well, they are the

763
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:10,200
Speaker 1: wealthiest family in this area because they are possibly the

764
00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:14,200
Speaker 1: most corrupt family in this area. Oh, they are in

765
00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:17,840
Speaker 1: every kind of bad thing. And now I'm worried about

766
00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:21,680
Speaker 1: Gus and what he did to them because he did something.

767
00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:26,800
Speaker 2: Was Gus as an employee of George? Was Gus in

768
00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:32,120
Speaker 2: bezzling money in some fashion? Was he not living up

769
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:36,319
Speaker 2: to some promise? You know? Is Gus involved in some

770
00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:40,759
Speaker 2: nefarious activities and could have exposed George and William, you

771
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:43,520
Speaker 2: know as to what activities they were doing. Yeah, so

772
00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:48,200
Speaker 2: now understanding who the offenders are, you know, they have

773
00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:53,160
Speaker 2: financial interests, this whole idea of corruption, Well what exactly

774
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:56,600
Speaker 2: are they doing illegally? And sounds like they're willing to

775
00:41:56,719 --> 00:42:00,040
Speaker 2: kill to protect their financial interest as well as what

776
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:02,400
Speaker 2: ever illegal activities they are involved with.

777
00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:04,839
Speaker 1: Well, the story I'm going to tell you is going

778
00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:08,400
Speaker 1: to feel very familiar because it echoes through the last

779
00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:11,520
Speaker 1: century and a half when all of this happened. So

780
00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:14,640
Speaker 1: this is what happens. The brothers do everything possible that's

781
00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:20,680
Speaker 1: illegal and what they are finally really caught with and

782
00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:23,160
Speaker 1: they have not been able to pay off the law

783
00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:25,919
Speaker 1: to get out of this. It sounds like they are

784
00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:28,239
Speaker 1: going to go to prison for this. Is they had

785
00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:32,640
Speaker 1: been charged with forgery and larceny. The tailors. William Taylor

786
00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:34,759
Speaker 1: worked as a cashier in a bank and he was

787
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:38,239
Speaker 1: accused of raising a draft for two dollars to two

788
00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:42,799
Speaker 1: thousand and getting George to cash it. So they were

789
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:46,640
Speaker 1: stealing money essentially in another town. But the big, big,

790
00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:50,000
Speaker 1: big charge for them, that was one charge, but they

791
00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:52,680
Speaker 1: thought they could probably try to get their way out

792
00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:57,080
Speaker 1: of it. What they had really been fearful of is

793
00:42:57,440 --> 00:43:00,560
Speaker 1: they were accused of burning down a lumber yard for

794
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:05,759
Speaker 1: insurance and also for cattle rustling, which is wild West

795
00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:11,080
Speaker 1: terminology for cattle theft. So the cattle theft and the

796
00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:14,200
Speaker 1: burning down the lumber yard is a pretty big deal,

797
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:18,879
Speaker 1: and they were very scared that people would turn on them.

798
00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:22,080
Speaker 1: And when we're looking for a motive, it turns out

799
00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:27,280
Speaker 1: that George and William Taylor had hired Gus to steal

800
00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:28,560
Speaker 1: this cattle and he did.

801
00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:32,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, so Gus is fully aware of their illegal.

802
00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:34,080
Speaker 1: Activities, participated in it.

803
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:40,880
Speaker 2: Yeah. And now are they eliminating Gusts because they're fearful

804
00:43:41,080 --> 00:43:44,799
Speaker 2: that he is going to be a witness. I mean

805
00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:48,760
Speaker 2: it sounds like Gus wasn't really embraced as being part

806
00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:52,000
Speaker 2: of their group. If there is a group, you know,

807
00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:56,160
Speaker 2: he wasn't a loyal follower of them. It almost sounds

808
00:43:56,280 --> 00:44:00,200
Speaker 2: like he was hired specifically to steal this cattle, and

809
00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:03,839
Speaker 2: they recognized that he has no loyalty to them, nor

810
00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:06,359
Speaker 2: do they have any control over him, and he can

811
00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:09,400
Speaker 2: turn state's witness against them in this crime.

812
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:13,359
Speaker 1: Right. And I don't know anything about Gus's character other

813
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:17,040
Speaker 1: than he needed money because he's got these kids. He's

814
00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:19,760
Speaker 1: got three kids and a wife who's about to give birth,

815
00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:22,400
Speaker 1: and I'm sure he was panicked. And when the tailors,

816
00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:24,520
Speaker 1: one of whom was his boss because he owned the

817
00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:26,399
Speaker 1: land that he farmed, to come to him and say,

818
00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:28,279
Speaker 1: we just need you to do this. You're going to

819
00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:30,799
Speaker 1: divert these thirty one steers that were supposed to be

820
00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:33,080
Speaker 1: delivered to a buyer and you're going to give him

821
00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:35,120
Speaker 1: to us and we're going to sell him. And he

822
00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:38,200
Speaker 1: said okay, So he did it. Gus was caught, he

823
00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:41,280
Speaker 1: pled guilty, and he was going to go to prison,

824
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:45,920
Speaker 1: But a month before Gus's family was murdered, he was

825
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:49,440
Speaker 1: pardoned by the governor of Missouri on the condition that

826
00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:51,840
Speaker 1: I know, you know, you're going to know what comes next.

827
00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:54,120
Speaker 1: He was going to be the star witness in this

828
00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:57,960
Speaker 1: arson for insurance case which was burning down the lumberyard

829
00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:02,320
Speaker 1: and for cattle theft. He was going to turn state's evidence.

830
00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:05,480
Speaker 2: And state's evidence against George and William right.

831
00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:07,360
Speaker 1: Old story, eliminate the witness.

832
00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:13,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, and also stupid because they waited until now. Gus

833
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:17,480
Speaker 2: is already under the state's fold. Yet Oh, he's now

834
00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:20,600
Speaker 2: a people's witness. And of course if something happens to him,

835
00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:22,840
Speaker 2: they become suspect number one.

836
00:45:23,080 --> 00:45:27,000
Speaker 1: So all of this information, the investigators say the tailors

837
00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:31,960
Speaker 1: needed to keep Gus silent. They had offered Gus, according

838
00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:35,640
Speaker 1: to Gus's mom, Martha, offered him one thousand dollars, which

839
00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:37,960
Speaker 1: is a lot in eighteen ninety four to pack up

840
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:41,080
Speaker 1: and hit the road thirty five thousand dollars today get

841
00:45:41,080 --> 00:45:43,520
Speaker 1: out of here. But Gus wasn't sure he wanted to

842
00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:46,560
Speaker 1: do it. He did not want to deal with the tailors.

843
00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:49,680
Speaker 1: He had agreed to testify against them, so he felt

844
00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:51,880
Speaker 1: like taking a deal from them would be super risky

845
00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:55,280
Speaker 1: and he would be tracked down by the law enforcement

846
00:45:55,360 --> 00:45:57,640
Speaker 1: and then probably sent to prison, and his poor wife

847
00:45:57,680 --> 00:45:59,960
Speaker 1: would be left with all these kids on her own.

848
00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:04,200
Speaker 1: He didn't trust him, but it felt like he was

849
00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:09,120
Speaker 1: being strong armed by the tailors to take the tailor's offer.

850
00:46:09,719 --> 00:46:13,239
Speaker 1: This is where the confusion happens with the wagon, and

851
00:46:13,320 --> 00:46:17,120
Speaker 1: this is I think what happens with the family. Martha

852
00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:21,680
Speaker 1: believes that the tailors went that night to pick up

853
00:46:21,719 --> 00:46:25,680
Speaker 1: Gus from the house under the pretenses of helping him relocate.

854
00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:28,600
Speaker 1: Based on that grave, we know that's probably what was

855
00:46:28,640 --> 00:46:32,200
Speaker 1: not going to happen. But DeLaura, the wife, had a

856
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:34,200
Speaker 1: very bad feeling about all of this. She knew what

857
00:46:34,239 --> 00:46:37,279
Speaker 1: her husband did. She knew he took this deal, and

858
00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:40,160
Speaker 1: she said, to keep Gus safe, she and the children

859
00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:43,640
Speaker 1: were going to come along because unfortunately she assumed that

860
00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:46,239
Speaker 1: they would not kill the entire family. But that's not

861
00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:47,400
Speaker 1: what happened obviously.

862
00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:52,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, because you know, before you gave Martha's opinion on this,

863
00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:55,280
Speaker 2: you know that was one of the questions, is how

864
00:46:55,640 --> 00:47:00,680
Speaker 2: here now you have Gus under jeopardy. You know already

865
00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:04,080
Speaker 2: agreed to testify against George and William. So when they

866
00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:06,839
Speaker 2: show up at the front door, you know, how does

867
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:11,840
Speaker 2: the family just voluntarily get into this wagon, because it

868
00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:14,120
Speaker 2: doesn't appear that, you know, at least the way that

869
00:47:14,239 --> 00:47:18,440
Speaker 2: the homicide went down, that there was force. They didn't

870
00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:21,239
Speaker 2: force this family into the wagon. It's like, yeah, let's

871
00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:23,440
Speaker 2: all go for a ride, and then they do this

872
00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:27,799
Speaker 2: blitz style attack like it was completely unexpected. So this

873
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:31,839
Speaker 2: scenario that Martha is putting out there, I mean, at

874
00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:34,360
Speaker 2: least does make sense. It seems plausible to me.

875
00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:39,360
Speaker 1: So all of this unfolds. I don't know if the

876
00:47:39,400 --> 00:47:42,560
Speaker 1: Tailors intended to murder the entire family quickly, but it

877
00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:45,239
Speaker 1: all goes awry. They are in the wind for a

878
00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:48,480
Speaker 1: couple of weeks. They are finally tracked down in Arkansas

879
00:47:48,719 --> 00:47:52,239
Speaker 1: and taken back to the town of Carrollton, which is

880
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:54,920
Speaker 1: about seventy miles away from where they were. Of course,

881
00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:58,480
Speaker 1: everybody hates the Tailors. There's no getting around that. Nelly

882
00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:02,000
Speaker 1: is the star. She knows all of this information and

883
00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:06,719
Speaker 1: the brothers. Actually there was so much sentiment against the

884
00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:09,480
Speaker 1: Tailors that when they were brought back on a train

885
00:48:09,560 --> 00:48:12,560
Speaker 1: from Arkansas, it was forced to change route because there

886
00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:15,400
Speaker 1: were two hundred and fifty armed people in a lynch

887
00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:18,680
Speaker 1: mob ready to kill them. That's how much they hated

888
00:48:18,719 --> 00:48:22,600
Speaker 1: these guys. So the brothers of course look very guilty.

889
00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:26,200
Speaker 1: There are multiple people who testify that the brothers had

890
00:48:26,280 --> 00:48:30,840
Speaker 1: threatened Gus Meeks, including Martha, Gus's mom. She reshares the

891
00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:34,319
Speaker 1: story about this plan quote unquote to relocate her son

892
00:48:34,360 --> 00:48:36,720
Speaker 1: and how she was worried that that was not going

893
00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:39,960
Speaker 1: to happen. So there is also a witness that the

894
00:48:40,040 --> 00:48:42,640
Speaker 1: DA puts on the stand. That's a worker who testified

895
00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:46,560
Speaker 1: that he had seen George getting his horses ready, rubbing

896
00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:48,920
Speaker 1: and curring his horses which had been out in the mud,

897
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:52,560
Speaker 1: and he saw the wagon that was covered with clotted blood,

898
00:48:53,080 --> 00:48:55,240
Speaker 1: some of which had trickled down the bed and stained

899
00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:58,680
Speaker 1: the axles. Eighteen hundred's. I mean, George could have said

900
00:48:58,680 --> 00:49:00,839
Speaker 1: I hit a deer or some I mean, I don't

901
00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:03,480
Speaker 1: think that is like rock solid evidence, But there was

902
00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:07,799
Speaker 1: a lot of circumstantial evidence. And the tailors just simply said,

903
00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:11,440
Speaker 1: we don't have any idea what happened. We don't know anything.

904
00:49:11,719 --> 00:49:12,960
Speaker 1: We thought we were going to get out of the

905
00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:16,000
Speaker 1: chargers anyway. Gus couldn't have said anything that would have

906
00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:18,640
Speaker 1: particularly hurt us. We thought that they were going to

907
00:49:18,760 --> 00:49:20,520
Speaker 1: leave and that was it. They have a couple of

908
00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:22,680
Speaker 1: people who are on the stand that hear the gunshots,

909
00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:27,120
Speaker 1: but really there are no real witnesses except a six

910
00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:30,000
Speaker 1: year old, and the defense is really trying to poke

911
00:49:30,080 --> 00:49:33,279
Speaker 1: holes in Nelly's story. But you know, on top of that,

912
00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:36,920
Speaker 1: say I've got alibi both of them. Their wives say

913
00:49:37,239 --> 00:49:39,560
Speaker 1: that both men were at home on the night of

914
00:49:39,600 --> 00:49:42,239
Speaker 1: the killings. But I mean, can we really ever take

915
00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:48,880
Speaker 1: a spouse seriously as an albi? Ever, No, your wife,

916
00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:51,799
Speaker 1: Your wife would lie for you if you were, you know,

917
00:49:51,840 --> 00:49:54,640
Speaker 1: someone who was involved in a crime. Would she really.

918
00:49:54,719 --> 00:49:56,680
Speaker 2: Oh no, she thought I was involved in a crime,

919
00:49:57,520 --> 00:50:01,279
Speaker 2: turned you in, huh, turned me over away. You know

920
00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:03,920
Speaker 2: this is and I know I've talked about this before,

921
00:50:04,080 --> 00:50:08,640
Speaker 2: is there's certain checkboxes when evaluating the veracity of an

922
00:50:08,680 --> 00:50:10,960
Speaker 2: alibi that need to be checked in order to be

923
00:50:11,080 --> 00:50:14,560
Speaker 2: confident in the alibi. And this is where if there

924
00:50:14,680 --> 00:50:20,120
Speaker 2: is that close personal relationship between the witness and the suspect,

925
00:50:20,760 --> 00:50:22,880
Speaker 2: if they're saying, yes, they were with me that night

926
00:50:22,920 --> 00:50:26,680
Speaker 2: and there's nothing else that can help support that claim,

927
00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:29,040
Speaker 2: I don't put any weight on that because I've seen

928
00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:34,120
Speaker 2: over and over again that that relationship. Trump's the concern

929
00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:37,479
Speaker 2: about the suspect having commit the crime, and it's either

930
00:50:37,520 --> 00:50:41,520
Speaker 2: because of the close connection in terms of there's actually

931
00:50:41,719 --> 00:50:46,200
Speaker 2: emotional connection, or it's because that witness is in jeopardy

932
00:50:46,280 --> 00:50:51,440
Speaker 2: themselves by the suspect. You know, once investigators leave and

933
00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:55,840
Speaker 2: if they don't side on the suspect side, they potentially

934
00:50:55,880 --> 00:50:58,200
Speaker 2: could come under harm.

935
00:50:58,280 --> 00:51:02,880
Speaker 1: Well it might have worked because in this trial, once

936
00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:06,600
Speaker 1: they hear all the evidence, despite what Nelly says, the

937
00:51:06,719 --> 00:51:10,120
Speaker 1: jury goes back. They deliberate, and it's deadlocked. There's a

938
00:51:10,160 --> 00:51:15,320
Speaker 1: mistrial seven to five, except because these guys are so sleazy,

939
00:51:15,480 --> 00:51:18,320
Speaker 1: it turns out that they had bribed two of the jurors.

940
00:51:18,840 --> 00:51:21,920
Speaker 1: I mean, they are put back on trial. There is

941
00:51:21,960 --> 00:51:25,040
Speaker 1: a guilty verdict, and the reason I'm rushing through this

942
00:51:25,080 --> 00:51:29,000
Speaker 1: is because really the interesting stuff happens after the verdict.

943
00:51:29,280 --> 00:51:32,879
Speaker 1: So they appeal. It's a guilty, they're both sentenced to death.

944
00:51:32,920 --> 00:51:36,360
Speaker 1: They appeal to the state Supreme Court. The verdict is upheld,

945
00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:40,880
Speaker 1: and everything seems right with the world. Because the Tailors,

946
00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:43,960
Speaker 1: who are the worst people in Missouri, it sounds like,

947
00:51:44,680 --> 00:51:47,560
Speaker 1: are going to be executed and they are sitting on

948
00:51:47,640 --> 00:51:51,319
Speaker 1: death row until they break out and they do it successfully,

949
00:51:51,640 --> 00:51:54,520
Speaker 1: and one gets away and was never found again.

950
00:51:54,760 --> 00:51:55,799
Speaker 2: Oh really, yep.

951
00:51:56,040 --> 00:52:00,279
Speaker 1: So George and William they break out by knocking a

952
00:52:00,320 --> 00:52:03,759
Speaker 1: bar out of the cell poorly made jail, and they

953
00:52:03,760 --> 00:52:06,240
Speaker 1: go to the roof and they use a fifty foot

954
00:52:06,239 --> 00:52:09,880
Speaker 1: hose to climb down, and William is eventually captured. But

955
00:52:10,080 --> 00:52:15,120
Speaker 1: George Taylor is gone and William is hanged on April thirtieth,

956
00:52:15,239 --> 00:52:19,799
Speaker 1: eighteen ninety six. And you know, he essentially says, I'm

957
00:52:19,840 --> 00:52:23,880
Speaker 1: ready to meet my maker. Prejudice and perjury convicted me.

958
00:52:24,200 --> 00:52:26,759
Speaker 1: You know, he says, I didn't do it, and my

959
00:52:26,840 --> 00:52:30,200
Speaker 1: wife is now a widow, my babies are orphans. All

960
00:52:30,280 --> 00:52:33,239
Speaker 1: of this playing to it. But his brother's gone and

961
00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:37,000
Speaker 1: he's taking the full wrap for it. There are reports

962
00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:39,840
Speaker 1: that George has been spotted kind of through the years.

963
00:52:40,320 --> 00:52:43,440
Speaker 1: They said that some of these stories boy that said

964
00:52:43,440 --> 00:52:46,400
Speaker 1: that he was actually caught at some point. The others

965
00:52:46,400 --> 00:52:50,080
Speaker 1: say that he had been located but never really tracked down.

966
00:52:50,480 --> 00:52:53,160
Speaker 1: You know, there's no confirmation. Someone said there was a

967
00:52:53,239 --> 00:52:56,440
Speaker 1: rumor that he fought in the Spanish American War. Some

968
00:52:56,480 --> 00:52:58,600
Speaker 1: people said he left the country, he got away with it.

969
00:52:58,640 --> 00:53:01,680
Speaker 1: Whatever happened to him, unless somebody killed him and it

970
00:53:01,719 --> 00:53:05,600
Speaker 1: wasn't reported. He got away with this. This terrible person

971
00:53:06,120 --> 00:53:09,760
Speaker 1: killed an entire family because the dad made a mistake,

972
00:53:09,840 --> 00:53:12,560
Speaker 1: one mistake and that was it, and then tried to

973
00:53:12,600 --> 00:53:15,040
Speaker 1: correct it and do the right thing, and all of

974
00:53:15,040 --> 00:53:16,200
Speaker 1: them were dead except Nelly.

975
00:53:16,560 --> 00:53:20,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, it'd be so easy back during this timeframe to

976
00:53:20,080 --> 00:53:23,600
Speaker 2: be able to disappear and assume a new identity. This

977
00:53:23,719 --> 00:53:28,680
Speaker 2: is where today there could be a lineage that comes

978
00:53:28,719 --> 00:53:33,840
Speaker 2: from George that could be connected back to the Taylor family.

979
00:53:34,080 --> 00:53:39,520
Speaker 2: So genealogy could possibly identify George today in terms of

980
00:53:39,680 --> 00:53:41,279
Speaker 2: what his new identity was.

981
00:53:41,880 --> 00:53:44,560
Speaker 1: Well, let me just get a really vivid to me

982
00:53:44,800 --> 00:53:48,600
Speaker 1: picture of how this story ends. We started with Nellie Meeks,

983
00:53:48,680 --> 00:53:51,160
Speaker 1: who was my hero in the story, as well as

984
00:53:51,239 --> 00:53:54,400
Speaker 1: Gus's mother Martha, who was brave enough to take the

985
00:53:54,440 --> 00:53:56,319
Speaker 1: stand and say, this is what happened to my son.

986
00:53:56,480 --> 00:53:59,560
Speaker 1: He was being intimidated. I didn't trust these guys. So

987
00:54:00,040 --> 00:54:03,919
Speaker 1: Ellie lives with her maternal grandmother that's who raises her.

988
00:54:04,000 --> 00:54:07,000
Speaker 1: She has a massive scar on her forehead that she

989
00:54:07,080 --> 00:54:10,360
Speaker 1: has for the rest of her life and in her youth.

990
00:54:10,960 --> 00:54:15,440
Speaker 1: After her parents are gone, after everybody's gone, she joins

991
00:54:15,840 --> 00:54:21,160
Speaker 1: a traveling carnival company and she sings about her near

992
00:54:21,239 --> 00:54:25,759
Speaker 1: death experience. She turns it into a moneymaker for her.

993
00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:28,880
Speaker 1: You know, she's trying to make a living off of this.

994
00:54:29,000 --> 00:54:32,000
Speaker 1: She's got this big scar. She is, you know, the

995
00:54:32,040 --> 00:54:37,240
Speaker 1: survivor of a horrible crime that everyone in the country knew.

996
00:54:37,680 --> 00:54:39,839
Speaker 1: And so she spent her time, you know, doing that

997
00:54:39,880 --> 00:54:43,759
Speaker 1: when she was younger. She got pregnant in nineteen ten,

998
00:54:44,040 --> 00:54:47,680
Speaker 1: when she was in her early twenties, and she died

999
00:54:47,760 --> 00:54:48,719
Speaker 1: during childbirth.

1000
00:54:49,080 --> 00:54:50,040
Speaker 2: Oh wow.

1001
00:54:50,560 --> 00:54:54,239
Speaker 1: And the pin on this is is that the daughter survived.

1002
00:54:54,360 --> 00:54:58,120
Speaker 1: She had a little girl, and Nellie had named her Hattie.

1003
00:54:58,239 --> 00:55:00,640
Speaker 1: And Hattie was the four year old who obviously she

1004
00:55:00,719 --> 00:55:03,759
Speaker 1: was closest with who died. What a story, I mean,

1005
00:55:03,800 --> 00:55:07,000
Speaker 1: my goodness, from beginning to end, a six year old,

1006
00:55:07,320 --> 00:55:07,480
Speaker 1: you know.

1007
00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:11,600
Speaker 2: And I think that that's something that in my experience

1008
00:55:11,880 --> 00:55:15,120
Speaker 2: with some of the cases that involve these young kids,

1009
00:55:15,440 --> 00:55:20,719
Speaker 2: we have a tendency to place a level of worldly

1010
00:55:20,840 --> 00:55:24,960
Speaker 2: ignorance on somebody this this young. But it also Nelly

1011
00:55:25,080 --> 00:55:30,080
Speaker 2: really shows that they're so much more observant and in

1012
00:55:30,239 --> 00:55:34,000
Speaker 2: tune with the world than what we give them credit for.

1013
00:55:34,280 --> 00:55:38,000
Speaker 2: And of course Nelly happens to have the predisposition of

1014
00:55:38,040 --> 00:55:43,600
Speaker 2: this survivor resilience, you know, to be able to play dead,

1015
00:55:43,920 --> 00:55:47,960
Speaker 2: track down Sally and in essence, you know, get on

1016
00:55:48,040 --> 00:55:52,080
Speaker 2: the stand and testify against these two men that killed

1017
00:55:52,080 --> 00:55:55,759
Speaker 2: her entire family. So she absolutely is a hero, and

1018
00:55:55,800 --> 00:55:58,160
Speaker 2: it's just so sad that she died so young.

1019
00:56:01,120 --> 00:56:05,760
Speaker 1: I love kids. I love my kids. I'm always shocked

1020
00:56:05,800 --> 00:56:08,880
Speaker 1: at the level of maturity that they sometimes display, and so,

1021
00:56:09,320 --> 00:56:11,280
Speaker 1: you know, I want to leave us with that feeling

1022
00:56:11,320 --> 00:56:13,320
Speaker 1: of just like looking at kids and just saying, gosh,

1023
00:56:13,360 --> 00:56:16,719
Speaker 1: don't underestimate them. They can be remarkable. And that makes

1024
00:56:16,719 --> 00:56:18,520
Speaker 1: me feel really good about my own kids. I feel

1025
00:56:18,520 --> 00:56:21,680
Speaker 1: like they're going to be and are right now remarkable.

1026
00:56:22,080 --> 00:56:25,800
Speaker 2: Oh absolutely, you know, it's just never underestimate them for sure.

1027
00:56:26,120 --> 00:56:29,240
Speaker 1: Okay, Paul, I'll come back next week and we will

1028
00:56:29,280 --> 00:56:32,600
Speaker 1: not have a story involving children, Thank goodness. I need

1029
00:56:32,640 --> 00:56:35,400
Speaker 1: a big break from that. But I will see you

1030
00:56:35,560 --> 00:56:37,440
Speaker 1: very soon with another Buried Bones.

1031
00:56:38,120 --> 00:56:39,759
Speaker 2: I'm looking forward to it. Kate, Thank you.

1032
00:56:40,080 --> 00:56:47,239
Speaker 1: Thanks. This has been an exactly right production for.

1033
00:56:47,239 --> 00:56:50,680
Speaker 2: Our sources and show notes go to Exactlyrightmedia dot com

1034
00:56:50,719 --> 00:56:53,080
Speaker 2: slash Buried Bones sources, our.

1035
00:56:52,960 --> 00:56:55,080
Speaker 1: Senior producer is Alexus Emirosi.

1036
00:56:55,400 --> 00:56:59,600
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin and Kate Winkler Dawson.

1037
00:57:00,000 --> 00:57:02,160
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

1038
00:57:02,480 --> 00:57:04,759
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

1039
00:57:05,000 --> 00:57:07,040
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

1040
00:57:07,280 --> 00:57:11,440
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark, and Daniel Kramer.

1041
00:57:11,719 --> 00:57:15,080
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

1042
00:57:15,200 --> 00:57:16,320
Speaker 1: Baried Bones Pod.

1043
00:57:16,800 --> 00:57:19,360
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

1044
00:57:19,360 --> 00:57:21,360
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decote the

1045
00:57:21,400 --> 00:57:23,160
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now

1046
00:57:23,520 --> 00:57:27,760
Speaker 1: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's

1047
00:57:27,760 --> 00:57:29,840
Speaker 1: Cold Cases is also available now