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Speaker 1: If this is the me Eater podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,

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Speaker 1: bug bitten, and in my case, underwear listeningcast, you can't

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Speaker 1: predict anything presented by first Light, creating proven versatile hunting

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Speaker 1: apparel from Marino bass layers to technical outerwear for every hunt,

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Speaker 1: first Light Go Farther, Stay Longer. Okay. Joined today by

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Speaker 1: fabulous author Ian Fraser, author probably arguably, when I make

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Speaker 1: lists of the of my favorite books of all time,

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Speaker 1: usually at the top of the list is the book

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Speaker 1: Great Planes.

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Speaker 2: I'm glad to hear that I taught you a word

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Speaker 2: with that book. You did remember the word ichi PASISI?

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Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, but I can't remember what I meant.

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Speaker 2: It's a Lakota word. If it's growing, going along a stream,

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Speaker 2: crossing back and forth, it is a very useful word.

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Speaker 2: You can say I went down that stream, I went

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Speaker 2: down that crek ichi PASISI. And later I checked with

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Speaker 2: Lakota people and they said it actually means sewing. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: but the guy was using it, the guy I was

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Speaker 2: talking to was using it as ways telling me how

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Speaker 2: to get to.

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Speaker 1: It.

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Speaker 2: Is like we even back and forth with a sewing right,

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Speaker 2: It's like you're yeah, it is a sewing motion.

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Speaker 1: But author of I don't even know how many things

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Speaker 1: so award winning writer, hem, how many books you have?

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Speaker 1: We have a zillion written down, but it's.

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Speaker 2: A zillion, it's like it's slightly less. It's about I

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Speaker 2: would say a million, billion, trillion.

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Speaker 1: Author of a lot of fantastic books, including Travels in Siberia. Yes,

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Speaker 1: it's a great book. Thank you, and culminates in a

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Speaker 1: very spirited argument that Stalin Joe are not okay.

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Speaker 2: Stalin jokes are not okay.

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Speaker 1: I don't remember writing that you did? I did? Okay.

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Speaker 2: Well, the thing is, you had a big influence on

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Speaker 2: that book. I did because I wrote that. The New

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Speaker 2: Yorker paid a lot of expenses for it, so I

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Speaker 2: owed them a lot of that book. So I gave

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Speaker 2: him the book and they kind of condensed part of it,

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Speaker 2: and he said, don't do that. And I think they

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Speaker 2: did a good job condensing it. But I'm that that

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Speaker 2: decided me. It's very hard when you have a book

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Speaker 2: and then you have a magazine excerpt to do justice

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Speaker 2: to both of them. And the next time I'm not

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Speaker 2: doing not doing more anymore condensing. But that was you

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Speaker 2: don't remember. That was your verdict on it.

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Speaker 1: No, I can't believe I had any advice. You did

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Speaker 1: have advice. The best thing you ever said to me.

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Speaker 1: You said a lot of great things to me. The

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Speaker 1: best thing you ever said to me. I can't say.

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Speaker 1: Why can't you tell the story all the time. I

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Speaker 1: wouldn't tell it publicly, I'd tell it privately all the time. Okay,

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Speaker 1: I'll tell you later what you said. Okay.

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Speaker 2: It was a financial advice you.

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Speaker 1: After you wrote, after you wrote your book about the

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Speaker 1: Pine Ridge Reservation. We were a book called on the Reds,

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Speaker 1: which is a phenomenal history of the Pine Ridge Reservation

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Speaker 1: in the in the in the wars against the Sioux

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Speaker 1: and confinement to reservation and what happened on the reservation.

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Speaker 1: You offered a summation of you offered a summation of

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Speaker 1: your findings, and it was I just wanted to say

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Speaker 1: it publicly. Okay, Well, you can tell me later what

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Speaker 1: it was. You said another great thing to me one day,

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Speaker 1: because uh so Ian Fraser, I'm gonna his friends call

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Speaker 1: him Sandy. I'm gonna be using the word sandy. It's

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Speaker 1: from Ohio. Yes, I am from Michigan. Yeah. And you

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Speaker 1: said to me Not long after we met, you said,

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Speaker 1: whenever I think of Michigan, I think of people who say, fucker's.

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Speaker 3: That's fantastic.

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Speaker 2: All right, Well, I would tell you a story, a

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Speaker 2: Michigan related story about gray planes. Because Great Plains was

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Speaker 2: on the best seller list for ten weeks New York

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Speaker 2: Times bestseller.

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Speaker 1: That's that's a hard thing to pull off.

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Speaker 2: And it was bumped off the best seller list. And

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Speaker 2: the book that bumped it off, that moved it, that

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Speaker 2: replaced it on the best seller list was Bo by

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Speaker 2: Bo Schambackler, oh Michigan coach for about fifty years. He

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Speaker 2: bumped you, He bumped me, and we were, of course

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Speaker 2: very opposed to Michigan football because we were Ohio State fans.

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Speaker 1: But I want to tell you another thing you said

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Speaker 1: to me. Then we're gonna then we're gonna, we're gonna

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Speaker 1: come back to all your work. But here's an earthing

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Speaker 1: you said to me one time when I got out

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Speaker 1: of graduate school. I uh, I want to prefaces by saying,

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Speaker 1: I don't mean any offense to the individual we're going

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Speaker 1: to talk about. When I got out of graduate school,

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Speaker 1: I largely motivated by uh. I never told you this

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Speaker 1: largely motivated by great planes. And what a phenomenal job

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Speaker 1: you did with that book about the American Great Plains.

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Speaker 1: I was, I was like, I want to and and

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Speaker 1: other things too, but I wanted to go. I was

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Speaker 1: going to go back. I went to graduate school in Montana.

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Speaker 1: I was going to go back to Michigan. My dad

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Speaker 1: just died, so I had access to his truck. He

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Speaker 1: didn't need it anymore, and I was going to go

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Speaker 1: back to Michigan and drive all around. I was gonna

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Speaker 1: do like a history of the Great Lakes where I

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Speaker 1: grew up. And I knew certain weird things about the

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Speaker 1: Great Lakes. Have I talked about this before? I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I don't think. So. I knew certain things about the

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Speaker 1: Great Lakes that I didn't think anybody knew, Like, for instance,

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Speaker 1: after after, who's the founder of the Joseph Smith founder

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Speaker 1: of the Mormon Church. So Joseph Smith was hanged by

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Speaker 1: a mob in Carthage, Illinois. Is that Yes, there was

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Speaker 1: a power struggle between his followers, and there was two

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Speaker 1: emerging forces came out of this, Brigham Young and a

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Speaker 1: guy named James Jesse Strange I think was his name.

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Speaker 1: One of them was like I'm gonna head out to

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Speaker 1: the Great Salt Lake, Okay to flee persecution. And one

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Speaker 1: of them was like, I'm gonna head to Beaver Island

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Speaker 1: in Lake Michigan with my followers to flee persecution. Strange.

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Speaker 1: So Brigham Young went on to like very successfully, you

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Speaker 1: know establish you know Zion, right, And Brigham Young goes

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Speaker 1: up to this little dinky ass island in Lake Michigan.

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Speaker 1: Get strange. Strange goes up to this dinky ass island

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Speaker 1: in Lake Michigan like starts trying to intercept ships and

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Speaker 1: act like they were in his waters and tax them

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Speaker 1: like he was a sovereign nation. Yeah, he winds up

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Speaker 1: getting shot by his own followers next to a wood

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Speaker 1: pile along the beach, and that was the end of

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Speaker 1: his whole experiment. They had had it with him. Another

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Speaker 1: thing I knew about the Great Lakes was that I

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Speaker 1: thought was interesting is at one time a Niagara Falls,

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Speaker 1: a guy a zoo went out of business, and a

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Speaker 1: guy bought all the shit from the zoo, all the animals,

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Speaker 1: and put him on a barge and charge and sold

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Speaker 1: tickets to watch him run the barge over the falls.

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Speaker 1: I'd heard of that, Yeah, but I grew up on

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Speaker 1: the grade that nowadays would get you kicked off social media.

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Speaker 1: If you posted reading.

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Speaker 3: A lot of people would watch it first.

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Speaker 1: They would you would not you'd get all kind you'd

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Speaker 1: never dig out of that hole.

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Speaker 4: A third of the crowd's going, well, I mean, listen,

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Speaker 4: he's gonna do it anyway. The apathy.

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Speaker 1: So I was like armed with these things, you know.

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Speaker 1: And then this book comes out by this guy named

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Speaker 1: Jerry Dennis, and his hook for his book is that

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Speaker 1: some dude bought a boat. I don't know, Like, some

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Speaker 1: guy buys a boat out in the ocean somewhere in

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Speaker 1: the either way, he's got to get on a boat

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Speaker 1: and sail off through the Great Legs. So that's his

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Speaker 1: sort of angle. So it's a travelog about the Great Legs.

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Speaker 1: But in it, some bitch talks about no offense. Jerry

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Speaker 1: Dennis talks about the Mormon split, talks about the the

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Speaker 1: menagerie of critters going over the.

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Speaker 3: Falls that took the wind out of your sails.

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Speaker 1: Oh it did. And just as the book was coming out,

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Speaker 1: I called Sandy and I said, man, there's a book

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Speaker 1: coming out by a guy named Jerry Dennis. And I

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Speaker 1: wrote him or email out to I conveyed this to him,

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Speaker 1: and it's really just taking the wind out of my

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Speaker 1: sails on this whole project. And he left me a voicemail.

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Speaker 1: He left me a voicemail some days later and it said, Uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, I've been thinking since you called, and I

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Speaker 1: can't think of one good book ever written by a

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Speaker 1: guy named Jerry. I started. I had to think, like,

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Speaker 1: does Jerry Lewis write good books? Uh, we're going to

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Speaker 1: get into this whole body work.

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Speaker 3: Are you guys gonna talk about like people are probably

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Speaker 3: wondering how you guys even know each other.

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Speaker 1: We know each other from the so we met. Here's

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Speaker 1: how we met. You probably don't even know this.

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Speaker 2: Well, let's see, I probably don't.

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Speaker 1: When I was going to when I was in graduate

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Speaker 1: school in the writing program, you came in as like

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Speaker 1: a visiting writer.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, of course I remember that well.

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Speaker 1: And then you so I used to So I wouldn't

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Speaker 1: be sitting here if it wasn't I wouldn't be sitting

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Speaker 1: here if it wasn't for you and you and a

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Speaker 1: handful like like mister Heaton from Reese Buffer High School, right,

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Speaker 1: And then you know, probably not because of him, but

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Speaker 1: then largely because of you, because is to submit to

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Speaker 1: magazines by just sending shit in the mail, which didn't

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Speaker 1: work out. Well, no one has time to look at

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Speaker 1: all that stuff. And you vouched for me and fronted

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Speaker 1: my work at Outside magazine.

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Speaker 2: Well, can I tell my version of this?

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Speaker 1: Is it different than that?

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Speaker 2: It's a little bit more, it's a little bit more nuanced.

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Speaker 1: Oh okay.

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Speaker 2: I taught at University of Montana for two weeks, so

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Speaker 2: my contact with the students in the MFA program was

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Speaker 2: not large. I was just there very briefly, and you

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Speaker 2: submitted a piece, and I mean, this is just a

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Speaker 2: personal thing of mine, but I think if you can

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Speaker 2: avoid an MFA program, avoid it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you didn't tell that because you were talking to

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Speaker 1: MFA people.

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Speaker 2: Well no, and because they were paying me, so I

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Speaker 2: was just doing what was asking me. But spiritually I'm

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Speaker 2: not a big fan of MFA programs. So you gave

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Speaker 2: me this piece and it was incredibly good. It was

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Speaker 2: about the weather in Michigan, in northern Michigan, and I

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Speaker 2: mean it was just it just blew me away, and

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Speaker 2: I said, you quit, leave this program.

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Speaker 1: You could make a living at this right now. Don't

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Speaker 1: do this. Go and I.

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Speaker 2: Could, I can, you know, talk to people, you could

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Speaker 2: get pieces published. Right now, this is really good and

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Speaker 2: you quite sensibly finished. I've given people so much bad

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Speaker 2: advice over the years, but you you sensibly you finished.

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Speaker 2: And then you wrote somewhat later. You wrote a piece

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Speaker 2: about fishing in the outflow from a damt Michigan, where

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Speaker 2: you went up into the tunnel coming out of the generators,

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Speaker 2: sleeping there and sleeping. You had your boat hooked up

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Speaker 2: to something along the side.

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Speaker 1: I mean it was like there was such a concrete

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Speaker 1: anchor driven into the roof and you could tie off

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Speaker 1: on it.

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Speaker 2: And what are you fishing for?

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Speaker 1: White Because like you had to compete in that spot

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Speaker 1: with old men that would get up so early. So

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Speaker 1: we would leave the bar on occasion and take our

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Speaker 1: boat and park it in the good spot in the dam.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, we'd we can sleep in sleeping bags.

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Speaker 1: Two in the morning. Old men get up and we'd

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Speaker 1: be in the tube. And so the fish would come up, steelhead,

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Speaker 1: white fish would come up to feed on these insects.

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Speaker 1: Because this it was a big there was a diversion

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Speaker 1: in the river. They like manually like mechanically diverted a

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Speaker 1: big chain of the suit the Saint Mary's River ran

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Speaker 1: it all through town and then down a slope, and

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Speaker 1: then it powered this big hydro electric dam and that

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Speaker 1: thing that that that river would be so soulful insect

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Speaker 1: life that when it flowed back into the Saint Mary's

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Speaker 1: all this like larva and mayflies and whatever coming out

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Speaker 1: of these turbans. And you could just sit there in

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Speaker 1: turbans watch fish just sitting there feeding in these in

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Speaker 1: the outwash of the turban. So my brother and his

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Speaker 1: body who lived there before I moved up there, they

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Speaker 1: hit an idea to just go in the middle of

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Speaker 1: the night and get the good because you couldn't understand it.

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Speaker 1: But certain turbans produced really well and they would get

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Speaker 1: their turban by just going in the morning. So then

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Speaker 1: old men would think they got it because they didn't know,

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Speaker 1: and they'd pull up and realize you're sleeping in the thing.

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Speaker 1: That it was great. It was great. I can't claim

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Speaker 1: the discovery, but I wrote about the experience.

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Speaker 2: So you gave that piece to D. Mcknamer, who taught

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Speaker 2: it you of M and D said, this is a

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Speaker 2: fabulous piece, and she sent it to me, and I

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Speaker 2: sent it to Mary Turner and outside and I said,

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Speaker 2: this guy is great and that was your first piece

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Speaker 2: and outside, as I recall.

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Speaker 1: Dude, that was I was happier that you know. You

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Speaker 1: saved your message on my machine.

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Speaker 2: You called me after they bought it, and it was

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Speaker 2: the happiest message I've ever gotten on my machine.

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Speaker 5: Him.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I just talked to Mary Turner. I talked

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Speaker 1: to Mary Turner. She will have the pace. She's gonna

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Speaker 1: pay me four thousand dollars. It was such a huge

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Speaker 1: amount of money. This is like I remember being hanging

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Speaker 1: shower doors or something at the time I was doing

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Speaker 1: cabinet was installing. I was installing, uh, I was installing

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Speaker 1: closet shelving, and then working for in the tree service business. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and uh, oh my god, there's a lot of money.

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Speaker 1: I remember being in the bar that night. I could

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Speaker 1: have just died that night, be in the bar that night,

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Speaker 1: and like certain friends were like happy. Certain friends were

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Speaker 1: just so tore up, like they couldn't even look at me.

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Speaker 1: They're so jealous. I had all this money. I bought

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Speaker 1: a truck topper when it stayed several days at a

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Speaker 1: hot spring.

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Speaker 4: Your closet shelving. Was it just MDF, like prepainted MDF.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you said to drive over to Spokane and pick

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Speaker 1: it up.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. So for those of you who don't know, as

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Speaker 4: far as your interior finishes go, this is not uh,

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Speaker 4: this would be the bottom of the skilled label.

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Speaker 1: No, no, no, no, because I installed the bottom. The

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Speaker 1: bottom is wire. A good job for us was the

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Speaker 1: melomine the wood bottom is wire melomane. Yeah, all right, Uh,

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Speaker 1: if you remember back a few episodes we had on

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Speaker 1: some anthropologists and archaeologists and we talked about a project

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Speaker 1: in which me and some other folks from the Meat

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Speaker 1: Eater crew went out and butchered a bison using stone tools.

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Speaker 1: We used particularly Clovis points, Clovis projectile points, stone flakes,

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Speaker 1: and we like gutted, skinned, butchered, boned out, and entire

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Speaker 1: bison in collaboration with researchers from Kent State University, SMU,

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Speaker 1: Southern Methodist University, and Oregon State University as all part

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Speaker 1: of this broad or study about developing a toolkit, so

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Speaker 1: to speak, for how to interpret what happened at ice

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Speaker 1: age kill sites where all you have left is bone

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Speaker 1: in stone. So we were using stone tools to butcher

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Speaker 1: an animal, and then the research was to be able

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Speaker 1: to like, look at what happened to these bones, what

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Speaker 1: happened to these stones, and use it as clues, right

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Speaker 1: to put together the puzzles of what was going on

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Speaker 1: when hunters during the Ice Age were chopping up bison

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Speaker 1: and wooly mammoths and whatnot. That is now an episode

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Speaker 1: that we've put together for YouTube, So look for that

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Speaker 1: real soon on the Meat Eater YouTube channel. Oh that

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Speaker 1: this'll you'll appreciate this because this is from Ohio. Do

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Speaker 1: you follow Ohio news a little bit? Yeah, you've reared

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Speaker 1: the walleye cheating scan. Oh of course I couldn't know

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Speaker 1: about that. My god. So well, I'll tell you something

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Speaker 1: you might not know. Okay, did you see in the

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Speaker 1: videos where he cut the walleyes open and got the wine?

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Speaker 2: I haven't seen them.

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Speaker 1: Well, we own the knife it.

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Speaker 6: Was, yes, that is well, I think it's actually just pliers.

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Speaker 7: Again, it's a leather man, but don't leatherman make Okay, it's.

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Speaker 1: What we own. The implement used to cut the walleyes

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Speaker 1: open to discover the lead weights. In addition to the

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Speaker 1: shirt of the man wielding that weapon, we'll talk about

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Speaker 1: valuable ship. Uh, we own that stuff. So that case

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Speaker 1: is trickling along. We're into the news segment. They pleaded

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Speaker 1: guilty to felony cheating and miss This is an interesting one.

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Speaker 1: Misdemeanor animal ownership, presumably meaning they were owning the walleyes. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I would think that would be like over the limit

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Speaker 3: or something.

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Speaker 1: But misdemeanor animal ownership. So Jacob Runyon forty three and

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Speaker 1: Chase Kaminski, who's in which of these fellers is an

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Speaker 1: all that trouble for trying to go to the bowling

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Speaker 1: alley with hard dollar counterfait.

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Speaker 4: Kids exactly, which I think plays into the plea deal heavily.

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Speaker 6: I think it's Chase.

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Speaker 1: Chase, he got a bunch of trouble. He's got like

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Speaker 1: violating a restraining order, bowling with counterfeit money.

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Speaker 6: Here's encouraging his kid to do that. I mean, that's like,

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Speaker 6: well the.

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Speaker 3: Kid thought none of that stuff was supposed to influence

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Speaker 3: this stuff.

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Speaker 1: Well that's why I did. That's why I didn't want to, like,

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Speaker 1: I don't think because there's a thing in America called

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Speaker 1: it's not double jeopardy, it's called he is it habeas corpus.

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Speaker 1: What is it that you can't bring up all the

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Speaker 1: all the best stuff you did.

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Speaker 3: I'm not sure the legal term, but that's what I'm

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Speaker 3: getting dude.

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Speaker 1: If I rewrote the Constitution, I would lead with fixing

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Speaker 1: that you'd.

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Speaker 4: Be like, well, this guy, Well it does go right

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Speaker 4: when you establish somebody's character as a reliable witness. Like

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Speaker 4: if if a prosecutor could get one of these fellows

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Speaker 4: on the stand and be like, so you're saying that

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Speaker 4: the fish just ate led weights and Walleye fill a's

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Speaker 4: and you just caught the fish, right, Sure that that

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Speaker 4: could happened. We can't prove it can't. But for you

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Speaker 4: to be a reliable witness, what's your track record in

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Speaker 4: lying and what's your right and so they could go back. Yes. Now,

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Speaker 4: the why I think it does play in is just

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Speaker 4: the fact that in order to pay your legal counsel

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Speaker 4: and go through a long drawn out trial process of

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Speaker 4: trying to defend yourself by saying, listen, although we cannot

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Speaker 4: biologically prove that walleye eat lead weights and walleye fill

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Speaker 4: as all the time.

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Speaker 1: I could prove that they don't eat walleye fil as.

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Speaker 4: So that's gonna cost a bunch of money. He's already

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Speaker 4: on the hook. Bad pun for uh having to clear

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Speaker 4: up his other legal troubles too, So I'm thinking he's

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Speaker 4: just looking at the overall cost of fighting it. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: keeping keeping his head above water another bad punch maybe,

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Speaker 4: But yeah.

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Speaker 1: They they pled guilty to these things. Okay, they were

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Speaker 1: initially indicted on cheating, attempted grand theft, possession of criminal tools.

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Speaker 1: Tells that mean illegal. I love illegal animal ownership. But

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Speaker 1: when they appeared yesterday Inkoyahogakuyahoga, Cuyahoga County Court, both men

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Speaker 1: pleaded guilty to two of those charges in exchange for

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Speaker 1: the remaining charges being dropped. Now, Jason Fisher, who's been

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Speaker 1: on this show, is glad they pleaded out. Fisher organized

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Speaker 1: a tournament at which Running and Kaminski were caught and

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Speaker 1: appeared in the I'm reading from our own reporting. I

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Speaker 1: should point out to Jordan Siller's piece on the meater

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Speaker 1: dot Com. Uh, this is the one time I'm not

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Speaker 1: like guilty of not adequately sorting or sourcing where I'm

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Speaker 1: getting something from, because Jordan's been on the damn show.

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Speaker 1: So uh. Jason goes on to say it was nice

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Speaker 1: to see they played guilty as opposed to no contest.

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Speaker 1: They admitted to doing everything that the state said they did.

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Speaker 1: It's good for the fishermen in the community as a

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Speaker 1: whole to put this to bed. He points out this

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Speaker 1: is an interesting perspective that Jason Fisher has. Jason Fisher

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Speaker 1: says he's almost kind of glad they're not going to jail,

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Speaker 1: because then taxpayers would have to pay for them to

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Speaker 1: live in jail. He'd rather they just took their boat

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Speaker 1: away and never let them do any walleye tournaments again,

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Speaker 1: so he doesn't have to think of himself footing the

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Speaker 1: bill to pay them to give them their food, which

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Speaker 1: is an interesting perspective on prison time. Usually put people

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Speaker 1: in prison because you want to stick it to them,

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Speaker 1: but he wants to stick it to him by not

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Speaker 1: putting them in prison.

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Speaker 4: And let's be fair, they're doing a great job at

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Speaker 4: sticking it to themselves.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, because anyone up you'd think if you got

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Speaker 1: caught cheating on a walleye tournament, you would not take

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Speaker 1: one hundred dollars counterfeit bills to the bowling alley. I

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Speaker 1: don't know, do you know what I mean? I wouldn't

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Speaker 1: if I do something a little bit bad, I like

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Speaker 1: play it cool for a while, you know what I mean?

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Speaker 4: You don't double down?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we have a correction on a correction. Can you

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Speaker 1: explain how we're at a point where there's a correction

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Speaker 1: ont of correction?

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Speaker 6: Okay.

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Speaker 7: So shortly after the podcast the Liberal recordded Trey, Yep, we're.

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Speaker 1: Talking about it was a podcast called The Liberal Redneck Right.

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Speaker 7: Trey wrote in that he did a little bit more

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Speaker 7: digging and he determined that what he had said on

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Speaker 7: air was incorrect.

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Speaker 1: That he had said that the only thing going for

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Speaker 1: his hometown was they held the wall the small mouth

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Speaker 1: basks yep, world record, right, but then he said they

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Speaker 1: got beat and even that was taken.

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Speaker 6: From them, right.

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Speaker 7: And so before it aired, Phil recorded a little correction and.

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Speaker 6: You know, because we're going to get that Phil.

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Speaker 2: Uh.

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Speaker 5: He was just a quick little like, hey Phil here,

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Speaker 5: Trey texted and said that you're a little correction back

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Speaker 5: to this.

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Speaker 1: You installed that in the episode, Yes, got here it

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Speaker 1: real quick.

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Speaker 5: Hey everyone, Phil here with a quick note. Immediately after

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Speaker 5: the show, Trey did some research and found out that

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Speaker 5: Selina and Dale hollow Lake still hold the record for

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Speaker 5: the small mouth bass. According to him, he quote assumed

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Speaker 5: the universe had taken that from us as well. My bad,

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Speaker 5: Thanks Trey, and back to the show.

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Speaker 1: So that what happened. Now we're in a situation where

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Speaker 1: there was a correction on a correction because a gentleman

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Speaker 1: wrote in who's this person?

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Speaker 6: He lives nearby Kyle due name.

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Speaker 1: Kyle writes in he has this to say. Mister Crowder

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Speaker 1: was not incorrect in saying that the record was taken away.

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Speaker 1: What he would have been incorrect in saying is that

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Speaker 1: it was taken away from the lake. Right you're thinking yourself, what, well,

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Speaker 1: I'll tell you the record was removed from the individual,

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Speaker 1: but the previous record, which would have been the record

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Speaker 1: by default, was also caught in dale Hollow Lake. So

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Speaker 1: even if the record had been permanently redacted, Dale Hollow

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Speaker 1: would still hold the world small mouth record. Two of

437
00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:28,200
Speaker 1: the top three. This is a hard sentence to understand.

438
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:31,760
Speaker 1: Two of the top oh two of the top three,

439
00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:36,719
Speaker 1: and six of the top ten largest small mouth have damn,

440
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:44,720
Speaker 1: you know this person, Well, there's a reason like when

441
00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:47,879
Speaker 1: you have Let me just tell this person, if you're listening,

442
00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:51,480
Speaker 1: never start a sentence with a numeral, you always spell

443
00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:53,040
Speaker 1: it out yeah started.

444
00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:54,000
Speaker 6: A sentence up to eleven.

445
00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:58,160
Speaker 1: Yea in some places will make you spell anything under

446
00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:04,639
Speaker 1: ten every time. Two of the top three and six

447
00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:08,359
Speaker 1: of the top ten largest small mouth caught have come

448
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:15,680
Speaker 1: from Dale Hollow, per Bass Bass Senior Editor Ken Duke.

449
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:20,679
Speaker 1: The current record, now confirmed to have been caught in

450
00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:24,840
Speaker 1: Kentucky waters on the Kentucky and Tennessee shared water body

451
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:29,600
Speaker 1: that is Dale Hollow, was wrought with drama. Oh so

452
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:30,520
Speaker 1: this gets thicker.

453
00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:33,080
Speaker 6: Yet this is what trail alluded to before.

454
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:37,479
Speaker 1: So Tennessee and Kentucky share this lake. The current record

455
00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:39,960
Speaker 1: came out of Dale Hollow Lake, but out of the

456
00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:44,679
Speaker 1: Kentucky waters. The fish, caught by David Hayes Litchfield, Kentucky,

457
00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:49,439
Speaker 1: was weighed first on scales that were not certified. After

458
00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:52,800
Speaker 1: being told this fish, if certified, would be the new

459
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:56,240
Speaker 1: world record, the fish was rushed to Cedar Hill Marina,

460
00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:02,960
Speaker 1: which housed the closest set of certified scales. Six weeks

461
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:06,720
Speaker 1: after the fish had been confirmed, David Barlow, a guide

462
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:10,920
Speaker 1: on Dale Hollow, filed an affidavit stating that he had

463
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:16,320
Speaker 1: handled the fish, shoving multiple pieces of hardware and or

464
00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:21,720
Speaker 1: weights into its gullet to increase the weight plot dickens,

465
00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:22,920
Speaker 1: Why did he admit to that?

466
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:24,680
Speaker 6: I don't know.

467
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:26,479
Speaker 3: Couldn't live with himself. I don't know.

468
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:33,080
Speaker 1: Maybe they waterboarded them. The IGFA denounced the world record

469
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:37,320
Speaker 1: because of the affidavit. Kentucky Department of Fish and Wildlife

470
00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:42,720
Speaker 1: Resources followed suit. Tennessee Wildlife and Resource Agency held on though,

471
00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:46,480
Speaker 1: and in their investigation found that Barlow was not even

472
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:49,440
Speaker 1: at the marina on the day of the fish had

473
00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:56,119
Speaker 1: been weighed, So he was lying about doing something bad.

474
00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:02,679
Speaker 1: Hm about do something bad. That's when he puts his

475
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:06,399
Speaker 1: own personal integrity, like he's weighing in his head. What

476
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:08,679
Speaker 1: matters more my personal integrity or that son of a

477
00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:11,800
Speaker 1: bitch having the bass record? Yeah, he's like, I'd rather

478
00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:16,520
Speaker 1: have right, I'll forfeit personal integrity to have him not

479
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:20,120
Speaker 1: have the satisfaction of the bass record is how Barlow

480
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:25,560
Speaker 1: apparently according to this piece of journalism, so he hadn't

481
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:29,479
Speaker 1: been there. This A combinates this in combination with the

482
00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:33,200
Speaker 1: measurements of this fish. The resulting estimated way of recorded

483
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:37,240
Speaker 1: measurements and the official way on the certified scales resulted

484
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:43,480
Speaker 1: in the record being reinstated by both IGFA in the

485
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:48,840
Speaker 1: Kentucky State Department. The fish now holds the IGFA World Record,

486
00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:56,199
Speaker 1: the kdfw R State Record, and the TWR A State record.

487
00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:01,200
Speaker 7: So the International Game and Fish so Siation and then

488
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 7: Kentucky and Tennessee's Wildlife departments.

489
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:08,600
Speaker 1: If you're thinking yourself, by God, would I like to

490
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:11,919
Speaker 1: get a look at that fish? There's a replica of

491
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:16,040
Speaker 1: it at the Kabella's out Post store in Bowling Green, Kentucky.

492
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:19,560
Speaker 1: If you want to pay your respects to the angler.

493
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:26,560
Speaker 1: The ramp where he launched that day has been memorialized

494
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:35,600
Speaker 1: as the David L. Hays bor Go. I love it.

495
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:39,400
Speaker 2: Any point did they say how big the fish was?

496
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:48,360
Speaker 1: You know that the story? Now that's called bad producing

497
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:50,520
Speaker 1: right there, Crenel, dig yourself.

498
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:52,640
Speaker 3: Out high highs.

499
00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:58,080
Speaker 1: And let's just called twelve. That's a nice moment. That's

500
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:01,240
Speaker 1: bad because that go ahead.

501
00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:03,280
Speaker 3: No, no, you if you've caught a bass that big,

502
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:05,760
Speaker 3: would you turn it into a levon fish sandwiches? Or

503
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:10,400
Speaker 3: do you you got any urge to have a world record?

504
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:16,680
Speaker 1: How kept it? How to kept it?

505
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:18,600
Speaker 3: Assuming it's legal to keep it?

506
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:22,880
Speaker 1: Yeah? And then pound for pounds? Some people say it's

507
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:25,520
Speaker 1: the hardest, hardest fight in freshwater fish is the small

508
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:27,480
Speaker 1: mouth bass. That thing would have put up a tussle.

509
00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:35,000
Speaker 4: Plus you're just awesome looking red eyes, tiger stripes.

510
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:39,000
Speaker 1: Way cooler and large mouse. Uh. We reported on I

511
00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:41,640
Speaker 1: don't know if that counts. That might be over selling it.

512
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:46,760
Speaker 1: We talked about South Carolina is harvest the tag coyote

513
00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:52,520
Speaker 1: program and win so South Carolina has previously discussed on

514
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:55,160
Speaker 1: this show is running a program right now to encourage

515
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:58,160
Speaker 1: the harvest of coyotes. I'll point out that our guests

516
00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:01,120
Speaker 1: Ian Fraser had had a book one time called Coyote

517
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:04,600
Speaker 1: v acme Yes, in which you laid out the legal

518
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:10,040
Speaker 1: case that Wiley coyote would have against acme Yes, where

519
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:12,520
Speaker 1: he buys his stuff to kill road runner. Right. I

520
00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:13,000
Speaker 1: mean it's.

521
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:19,120
Speaker 2: You know, it's product malfeasance. I mean, they're selling this guy,

522
00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:20,360
Speaker 2: and they're selling it over and over.

523
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:20,800
Speaker 7: You know.

524
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:23,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, one of those things everybody thinks about, but nobody

525
00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:24,400
Speaker 4: took the time to write.

526
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:27,040
Speaker 1: Well, you know, and then he also wrote a thing

527
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:29,600
Speaker 1: I believe that you argued that if you really wanted

528
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:31,480
Speaker 1: to have a good relationship, you date your mother.

529
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:34,600
Speaker 2: Well, that was one of my very very early pieces

530
00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:38,120
Speaker 2: when I was like twenty five years old.

531
00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:41,200
Speaker 4: Does this fall under the bad advice category?

532
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:45,959
Speaker 2: It was advice I think taken by nobody, nobody I knew,

533
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:48,840
Speaker 2: and it wasn't My mother wasn't crazy about it either.

534
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:54,000
Speaker 1: But so South Carolina is running a program to encourage

535
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:59,520
Speaker 1: coyote harvest in order to, you know, in order to

536
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:04,240
Speaker 1: org straight on predator control in the interest of recovering

537
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:07,760
Speaker 1: some game species. They have been tagging kylets and cutting

538
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:10,800
Speaker 1: them loose, and if you get one of the kyotes

539
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:14,200
Speaker 1: that's tagged, you get a lifetime hunting license. And they

540
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:16,080
Speaker 1: thought through it enough to be that you could also

541
00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:20,200
Speaker 1: is it confers out the word I'm looking for where

542
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:20,640
Speaker 1: you give.

543
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:22,440
Speaker 6: Something to sorry, maybe transfer.

544
00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:25,400
Speaker 1: You transferred to somebody else, Meaning if I got one

545
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:27,080
Speaker 1: of these kyots, I could give it to my daughter

546
00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:31,120
Speaker 1: who's who's ten, and then she's got a lifetime hunt license.

547
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:35,760
Speaker 1: A guy heard this and was talent wrote in to

548
00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:38,560
Speaker 1: tell us how in South Dakota they used to tag

549
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:41,840
Speaker 1: pheasants and turn them out, and if you shot a

550
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:46,600
Speaker 1: tagged pheasant you'd be rewarded with Akabella's gift card. And

551
00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:49,160
Speaker 1: he just wanted to let us know that he one

552
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:51,880
Speaker 1: time was looking at a breasted out pheasant in a

553
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:58,000
Speaker 1: ditch and realized that had the band on it.

554
00:31:58,080 --> 00:31:59,240
Speaker 6: So whoever hunted it and.

555
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 1: It is coworker took the band down and got a

556
00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:04,040
Speaker 1: five thousand dollars gift card out of the ditch.

557
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:06,560
Speaker 4: Are you aware of the million dollar pheasant?

558
00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:07,160
Speaker 1: No?

559
00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:10,800
Speaker 4: No, so the same deal and this is a full

560
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 4: tourism deal. Fesonomics in South Dakota is fascinating to me.

561
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:23,560
Speaker 4: The so they banded one hundred birds, released them. Thirty

562
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:29,840
Speaker 4: six birds were turned in, and of those one hundred birds,

563
00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:35,840
Speaker 4: they had the insurance company randomly select one of those numbers,

564
00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:41,240
Speaker 4: store it an electronic device in a safe somewhere, and

565
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:46,240
Speaker 4: then you know, if somebody turned in that magic number,

566
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:48,959
Speaker 4: they could win a million bucks.

567
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:50,320
Speaker 1: Really yep?

568
00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:57,520
Speaker 6: Wow? Is that is that like the state's money?

569
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:00,080
Speaker 4: You know how these.

570
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:01,520
Speaker 7: Is?

571
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:02,480
Speaker 1: You?

572
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:06,240
Speaker 6: Because tourism dollars pony.

573
00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:10,120
Speaker 4: Up a bunch of cash that is like a deposit

574
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:17,440
Speaker 4: eventually and you get it that the money comes from

575
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:21,080
Speaker 4: like this insurance payout scenario, as I understand.

576
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:23,320
Speaker 1: It, But did you think that's true?

577
00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:25,280
Speaker 4: But I know it's true, But.

578
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:27,640
Speaker 3: Did anybody did anybody win the million.

579
00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:31,040
Speaker 4: I'm not sure if anybody ever won the million.

580
00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 3: Because it kind of seems like they're gambling, like, yeah,

581
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 3: I wanted one hundred, it probably will never happen, you know,

582
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:38,880
Speaker 3: but you didn't. We don't know if anybody won, right.

583
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:43,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, but there were, you know, thirty six of the

584
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 4: bands turned in, and of those thirty six, none of

585
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:47,960
Speaker 4: them were million dollar birds.

586
00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:50,239
Speaker 1: So what makes a little bit of sense what you're

587
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:52,320
Speaker 1: talking about is I was at a fundraiser in Wyoming

588
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 1: one time, and they were giving away a truck if

589
00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 1: you could roll a set of dice and get five

590
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:06,560
Speaker 1: of a kind, which isn't gonna happen. It's not gonna happen.

591
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:10,160
Speaker 4: Okay, maybe if you're playing Yazzi with your grandma, but

592
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:12,799
Speaker 4: not if you're playing Yazzi for your truck.

593
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:16,919
Speaker 1: So I was there and I was like m seeing.

594
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:20,360
Speaker 1: The fundraiser was a nonprofit fundraiser, and they had a

595
00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:24,120
Speaker 1: guy from the insurance company down there, and the guy

596
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:29,040
Speaker 1: weighed all the dice. He came in and analyzed the

597
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:33,600
Speaker 1: dice and he measured out where you had to stand

598
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:36,239
Speaker 1: and where the dice had to wind up so that

599
00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:38,719
Speaker 1: it had to be like a legit roll, and he

600
00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:42,080
Speaker 1: was a supervising. He was like an insurance man supervisor,

601
00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:48,160
Speaker 1: because no one's gonna roll it, right, So they had

602
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:52,759
Speaker 1: bought some sort of policy that on the what are

603
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:56,560
Speaker 1: the odds that you'd roll five of a kind? That'd

604
00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:57,840
Speaker 1: be a quick internet search.

605
00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:01,839
Speaker 5: If I can remember my sick high school probability.

606
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:06,759
Speaker 3: It's like a yachtzi roll, right, like five dice five

607
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:07,560
Speaker 3: of a kind.

608
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:10,120
Speaker 5: Is like a one in like like, and then there's

609
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 5: like an exponential sort of addition you have to do.

610
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:13,759
Speaker 5: It's like five times five times five.

611
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:15,880
Speaker 1: We just let someone else do it on the computer.

612
00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:21,600
Speaker 4: One in seven thousand, seven hundred and seventy six. So

613
00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:25,279
Speaker 4: it doesn't sound that crazy. So you had no but

614
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:28,439
Speaker 4: it is better odds and drawn a sheep tag one

615
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:31,799
Speaker 4: in seven thousand, seven hundred and seventy six.

616
00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:34,799
Speaker 1: Yeap. You had to first win a chance to roll

617
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:35,200
Speaker 1: the dice.

618
00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:37,400
Speaker 4: Ooh, that makes it.

619
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:40,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, So everybody's all excited about getting to be the

620
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:42,440
Speaker 1: dice roller. And then when you get to be the

621
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:44,800
Speaker 1: dice roll, you got a one in seven thousand somehow

622
00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:47,400
Speaker 1: chance the rolling of win the thing. So they insured

623
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:49,799
Speaker 1: this somehow, and of course the guy, you know.

624
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:54,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, just you know, Shake a Day in western bars

625
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:56,480
Speaker 4: is a big deal, and it's the same thing. It's

626
00:35:56,560 --> 00:36:01,240
Speaker 4: like you they're fifty cents, you get a chance, whatever

627
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:04,399
Speaker 4: the pot is, and it used to be the pot

628
00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:07,319
Speaker 4: of all these people losing fifty cents to the Shake

629
00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:09,640
Speaker 4: a Day would get really high and then the state

630
00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:14,320
Speaker 4: capt it for because it's gambling. So I think a

631
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:18,680
Speaker 4: legal pot is five hundred dollars or less or eight

632
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:21,000
Speaker 4: hundred dollars or less now in the state of Montane,

633
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:23,480
Speaker 4: I can't remember which. But while I was back in

634
00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:26,880
Speaker 4: my bartending days, I had several people win Shake a

635
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:29,279
Speaker 4: Day pots, right, I mean it eventually it does hit.

636
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:33,160
Speaker 1: You can imagine that whoever wins that at a bar

637
00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:35,640
Speaker 1: does not then just go leave and make a deposit.

638
00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:43,520
Speaker 4: One little asshole kid did, Okay, So I bartended working

639
00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:48,800
Speaker 4: Man's Bar, okay, and everybody when when a normal patron

640
00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:52,960
Speaker 4: would win by around all the bartenders got a big tip,

641
00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:55,759
Speaker 4: you know, and then everybody and then he'd buy a

642
00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:58,000
Speaker 4: couple of rounds for everybody and then maybe take some

643
00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:01,640
Speaker 4: winnings home. Yeah, if it was like a regular who

644
00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:06,040
Speaker 4: happens to be like in their twenties. None of the

645
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:07,640
Speaker 4: money maver made at home, they went and.

646
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:10,600
Speaker 1: Paid rent with it. Well, they they drank it.

647
00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:13,520
Speaker 4: They they forgot how the left.

648
00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:14,879
Speaker 3: You're talking about the kid that left.

649
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:17,960
Speaker 4: But the kid one kid comes in watches some other

650
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:21,080
Speaker 4: people roll and it was like Halloween nights, something obnoxious

651
00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:24,000
Speaker 4: and goes, oh, I want to do that, And he's

652
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:27,320
Speaker 4: like staring at the dice, and part of me, honest

653
00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:30,879
Speaker 4: to God, wanted to be like, Okay, see you because

654
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:32,440
Speaker 4: I just knew how it was going to go down.

655
00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:35,560
Speaker 4: And he scooped up the money and ran out of

656
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:38,600
Speaker 4: the bar, never to be seen again. It was not

657
00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:40,080
Speaker 4: the way you're supposed to play the game.

658
00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:42,320
Speaker 1: I like think he invested all that money. He's a

659
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:44,040
Speaker 1: very successful businessman.

660
00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:45,360
Speaker 4: Now curing cancer.

661
00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:57,480
Speaker 1: More feedback. This this is the last. This is the last,

662
00:37:57,840 --> 00:37:59,959
Speaker 1: the last up top information we got to cover for today.

663
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:03,080
Speaker 1: So what was the name of the show where we

664
00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:06,160
Speaker 1: talked about down in Florida, Oh, Spitting and Strutton. Yeah,

665
00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:08,640
Speaker 1: if you refer back to the episode Spitting and Strutton,

666
00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:10,160
Speaker 1: we had a guest down who was explaining to me

667
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:15,279
Speaker 1: how someone he knows hates me because a person from

668
00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:21,840
Speaker 1: the USGS said how Python eradication programs are not effective

669
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:27,760
Speaker 1: in Florida, and he hates me for not arguing with him. Okay,

670
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:32,600
Speaker 1: that individual, that former guest who spoke on Burmese Python

671
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:38,840
Speaker 1: the Burmese Python explosion in Florida wrote in, so I

672
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:43,000
Speaker 1: have a note to the hater. I didn't catch his name,

673
00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:46,680
Speaker 1: but as someone shared, I was, I looked at his

674
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:53,320
Speaker 1: Instagram page. He has a Well, it doesn't matter. So

675
00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:57,960
Speaker 1: Bob Reid wrote in to say, this is the researcher

676
00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:01,400
Speaker 1: from the USGS who works on population ynamic issues with

677
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:05,040
Speaker 1: invasive Burmese pythons in South Florida. He said, sorry to

678
00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:06,840
Speaker 1: hear that a dude in Florida hates you because I

679
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:10,000
Speaker 1: said there's no evidence that the Python control programs are

680
00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:19,320
Speaker 1: having a significant effect on populations at landscape scales. He

681
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:22,000
Speaker 1: doesn't say, however, but you could. There's an implied However.

682
00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:25,560
Speaker 1: He goes on to say, we just published a big

683
00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:30,520
Speaker 1: scientific review of pythons in Florida. The conclusion from the

684
00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:36,040
Speaker 1: removal program section remains the same, no available evidence of

685
00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:42,960
Speaker 1: Python suppression across the landscape despite removal of over thirteen

686
00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:48,960
Speaker 1: thousand pythons. He said it's hard for people to comprehend

687
00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:52,160
Speaker 1: just how cryptic they are and therefore how many are

688
00:39:52,239 --> 00:40:00,239
Speaker 1: out there for everyone you catch. As for panthers, he says, yes, yeah,

689
00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:07,120
Speaker 1: they hammer white tails. They did. We reported on this

690
00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:08,800
Speaker 1: in the past, but I'm going to re talk about it.

691
00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:12,960
Speaker 1: As for you folks in Florida who think that your

692
00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:22,279
Speaker 1: deer hunting has gone shit due to panther recovery, if

693
00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:26,000
Speaker 1: that is your if that is how you weight values, okay,

694
00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:29,920
Speaker 1: if that is how you weight values, you are like

695
00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:35,680
Speaker 1: if we look at just the isolate the question our

696
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:39,040
Speaker 1: this is that this is not that you that this

697
00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:41,839
Speaker 1: has nothing to do with loving panthers, hating panthers whatever,

698
00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:48,400
Speaker 1: Just like like an objective reality is panthers hammer white tails. Okay.

699
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:53,279
Speaker 1: They did some work. They did some known fate survival data,

700
00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:57,560
Speaker 1: meaning they put two and forty one collars out on

701
00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:03,000
Speaker 1: adult deer in the Florida Panther National Wildlife Refuge in

702
00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:07,760
Speaker 1: Big Cyprus National Preserve in Florida from twenty twenty fifteen

703
00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:11,239
Speaker 1: to twenty eighteen. They put collars on two hundred and

704
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:14,839
Speaker 1: forty one white tail deer, one hundred and fifty six

705
00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:21,279
Speaker 1: females eighty five males. No follow along here. Okay. They

706
00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:24,680
Speaker 1: then wait for there to be a mortality signal on

707
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:27,360
Speaker 1: the deer, and they immediately go out and investigate what

708
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:34,960
Speaker 1: happened to the deer. They had one hundred and thirty

709
00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:40,480
Speaker 1: four mortalities. Now, Sandy, take a guess. One hundred and

710
00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:43,400
Speaker 1: thirty four mortalities. Take a guess at what number of

711
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:49,840
Speaker 1: those were killed by panthers? Do a lower one. I

712
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:51,279
Speaker 1: want I give you the answer. I wanted to be

713
00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:54,360
Speaker 1: more astounded. I hate when people do that. Man, obviously

714
00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:58,320
Speaker 1: that's my kids. Guess how much money I found million? No,

715
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:08,520
Speaker 1: out of seven dollars, forget that part, edit that out, Phil, Okay,

716
00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:12,160
Speaker 1: out of one hundred and thirty four mortalities, one hundred

717
00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:15,680
Speaker 1: and ten were predation. Now, people that go and say like, oh, hunters,

718
00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:19,319
Speaker 1: get them all, not even listen to this. Predators, non

719
00:42:19,520 --> 00:42:22,560
Speaker 1: human predators. I always like to point out that, like

720
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:27,120
Speaker 1: human predators are predators. Non human predators killed one hundred

721
00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:30,120
Speaker 1: and ten out of one hundred and thirty four, eighty

722
00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:36,640
Speaker 1: seven percent of that one hundred and ten were panthers. Okay,

723
00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:42,440
Speaker 1: he says, a much greater rate than reported by studies

724
00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:48,560
Speaker 1: conducted before the panther genetic restoration effort, which was initiated

725
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:56,560
Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety five. One deer okay, one hundred and

726
00:42:56,600 --> 00:43:00,480
Speaker 1: thirty four mortalities. When we originally talked about this study,

727
00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:05,360
Speaker 1: we originally talked about God's a long time ago. We

728
00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:07,239
Speaker 1: talked about the study because we talked about the state

729
00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:10,120
Speaker 1: of Florida trying to say to hunters, if you see

730
00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:12,840
Speaker 1: a deer or the collar, don't shoot it because it

731
00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:15,360
Speaker 1: has a collar, and don't not shoot it because it

732
00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:18,839
Speaker 1: has a collar. Try to act normal because they're trying

733
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:21,840
Speaker 1: to find out what kills deer. So if you're like,

734
00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:24,040
Speaker 1: oh my god, it's got a collar, shoot it, you're

735
00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:27,400
Speaker 1: messing up the study. And if you say, like, if

736
00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:29,399
Speaker 1: you're like me and you said, I'm not gonna shoot

737
00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:31,200
Speaker 1: a deer with a collar because that means another person

738
00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:35,120
Speaker 1: has touched it and it's soiled. I want to be

739
00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:38,000
Speaker 1: the first person to touch it, you're messing up the study.

740
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:40,759
Speaker 1: So if people were true to that and really just

741
00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:44,400
Speaker 1: shot deer, if they would have shot it, one hundred

742
00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:46,880
Speaker 1: and thirty four deer out on the landscape with collars.

743
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:50,600
Speaker 1: One was killed legally by a hunter, two were killed

744
00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:55,799
Speaker 1: by poachers just gives you an insane like like, who

745
00:43:55,960 --> 00:44:00,880
Speaker 1: is killing deer in Florida? It ain't people. And of

746
00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:04,680
Speaker 1: the three killed by people, two of a poachers. It's

747
00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:08,040
Speaker 1: it's very like isolated. It's it's it's it's like, uh,

748
00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:14,040
Speaker 1: it's borderline, and it's beyond anecdotal. It's not anecdotal conclusive.

749
00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:17,520
Speaker 1: It's just like, holy cow. So when you're in Florida,

750
00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:20,000
Speaker 1: like I just was two weeks talking to people, and

751
00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:24,160
Speaker 1: everyone you meet says the deer hunting went to ship

752
00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:27,640
Speaker 1: because the panthers and everyone I talked to, I'm like, oh,

753
00:44:27,719 --> 00:44:29,839
Speaker 1: there's gotta be more to the story. I can't really

754
00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:32,360
Speaker 1: you know, damn.

755
00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:35,960
Speaker 6: Mm hmm hmm.

756
00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:38,520
Speaker 1: You bought all that cal ann.

757
00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:44,680
Speaker 4: I mean, the the idea that people won't think that

758
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:48,839
Speaker 4: agencies have to know, right, like, oh, you know how

759
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:51,440
Speaker 4: many panthers are out there? You know how many pythons

760
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:54,080
Speaker 4: are out there. It's just it's nonsensical.

761
00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:58,239
Speaker 1: Most people told me, I know, oh, but they don't.

762
00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:02,719
Speaker 1: It was mostly I know, if you want to know,

763
00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:04,919
Speaker 1: ask me, don't ask them. Yeah.

764
00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:09,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, So like the python bowl that Florida kind of promotes.

765
00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:13,839
Speaker 4: I was talking to a biologist down there and he's like, yeah,

766
00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:16,960
Speaker 4: you know where every single python is caught. It's on

767
00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:19,200
Speaker 4: this two mile stretch of road that kicks off into

768
00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:20,200
Speaker 4: like big Cypress.

769
00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:21,319
Speaker 1: Yep, I was on that road.

770
00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:24,480
Speaker 4: He's like, you know why they're not caught anywhere else

771
00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:27,799
Speaker 4: because there's no roads. He's like, but do you really

772
00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:30,560
Speaker 4: think that that's where all the pythons are is on

773
00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:31,040
Speaker 4: that road?

774
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:32,080
Speaker 1: Yeah? You know.

775
00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:36,520
Speaker 4: He's like, everything else is so miserable to go through

776
00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:39,200
Speaker 4: for most of the year, if not all of the year.

777
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:41,879
Speaker 4: He's like, people just don't go in there. He takes

778
00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:45,200
Speaker 4: a very special person who likes to suffer from the

779
00:45:45,239 --> 00:45:47,759
Speaker 4: bugs and the heat and the humidity and the things

780
00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:50,719
Speaker 4: that sting and stick yet to go in there and

781
00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:53,600
Speaker 4: look for something. He's like, a lot of times when

782
00:45:53,640 --> 00:45:57,560
Speaker 4: we have tagged pythons, we'll be standing right on top

783
00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:00,400
Speaker 4: of the signal and it can take a frustration eatingly

784
00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:03,160
Speaker 4: long time to find the snake that you're literally standing

785
00:46:03,239 --> 00:46:07,440
Speaker 4: on that you have a beacon attached to, because they

786
00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:08,560
Speaker 4: that's what they do.

787
00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:12,520
Speaker 2: Did you ever see the picture of the python eating

788
00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:15,600
Speaker 2: the deer, which is amazing. I mean the deer was

789
00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:17,880
Speaker 2: I think bigger than the python.

790
00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:18,840
Speaker 1: That was a crazy photo.

791
00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:20,040
Speaker 2: It was really amazing.

792
00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:22,720
Speaker 1: And there's that python ada gator and then gator clawed

793
00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:24,719
Speaker 1: its way back out and killed it.

794
00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:27,600
Speaker 4: Oh I love that. That's great.

795
00:46:28,040 --> 00:46:30,080
Speaker 1: And when he got back, when he got back to

796
00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:34,520
Speaker 1: his friends, like where you been, Like, don't even get

797
00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:35,160
Speaker 1: me start.

798
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:37,200
Speaker 4: Don't take a nap.

799
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:42,920
Speaker 1: Let's start there on a recent episode. Now we're getting

800
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:45,880
Speaker 1: into our guest subject expertise. But do you remember your

801
00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:49,359
Speaker 1: your Do you remember writing about your antipodies? Oh?

802
00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:51,480
Speaker 2: Sure, yeah, it was like the second piece I did.

803
00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:54,800
Speaker 1: Somehow we were talking about digging down. I don't know

804
00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:55,759
Speaker 1: how this even came up.

805
00:46:56,200 --> 00:47:00,800
Speaker 2: You were talking about No, you were talking about animals

806
00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:03,080
Speaker 2: found at the same latitude all the way around the

807
00:47:03,080 --> 00:47:06,680
Speaker 2: circumpolar circumpolar like polar bears, and there's others.

808
00:47:06,719 --> 00:47:10,240
Speaker 1: The blue muscle. Okay, there's a bunch of species globally

809
00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:13,719
Speaker 1: that have what's called circumpolar distribution, meaning you take a

810
00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:18,200
Speaker 1: latitude band, like the blue muscle is one. I know,

811
00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:20,120
Speaker 1: I don't know what the hell the latitude band is.

812
00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:22,959
Speaker 1: But you take this latitude band and you can wrap

813
00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:25,600
Speaker 1: that latitude band around the entire globe and they're always present.

814
00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:30,200
Speaker 1: Polar bears have circumpolar distribution, but it's like the top

815
00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:35,040
Speaker 1: of the ball, so it's zero to I don't know,

816
00:47:36,360 --> 00:47:40,000
Speaker 1: above the Arctic. Yeah, like a very narrow band. It'd

817
00:47:40,040 --> 00:47:41,319
Speaker 1: be like the top of it. It'd be like if

818
00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:44,520
Speaker 1: if you were ahead, if you imagine the Earth is

819
00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:47,960
Speaker 1: the head and the polar bears distribution as a really

820
00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:54,720
Speaker 1: small yamica, that's like, yeah, that's him and other species

821
00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:57,239
Speaker 1: have different bands and that I don't know why that

822
00:47:57,360 --> 00:48:00,480
Speaker 1: got me talking about that got to be talked about

823
00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:05,319
Speaker 1: the concept of the It's not a concept the term

824
00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:09,880
Speaker 1: antipities antipoties, right, And I'm familiar with the antipodies because

825
00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:12,840
Speaker 1: of the writing of our guest today, Ian Fraser, And

826
00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:15,200
Speaker 1: I was saying that I think that you were saying

827
00:48:15,239 --> 00:48:16,799
Speaker 1: that where you grew up in Ohio.

828
00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:19,840
Speaker 2: Okay, this is where you made your mistake, Okay, go on.

829
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:22,279
Speaker 2: The thing is I had just started at the New

830
00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:25,080
Speaker 2: Yorker magazine. I was writing for the Talk of the Town,

831
00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:27,160
Speaker 2: and I got this idea, what is on the other

832
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:30,880
Speaker 2: side of the world from Manhattan, Oh, because I was

833
00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:34,080
Speaker 2: doing it for that magazine, and so it's not that different.

834
00:48:34,239 --> 00:48:36,960
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, it's four hundred miles different in

835
00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:41,120
Speaker 2: the Indian Ocean from Ohio the antipodies of like Cleveland, Ohio,

836
00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:45,600
Speaker 2: or the antipodies of Manhattan. But yeah, it was just

837
00:48:45,719 --> 00:48:48,839
Speaker 2: that if you drilled straight down through you would come

838
00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:54,120
Speaker 2: out in this really unfrequented part of the world. And

839
00:48:54,280 --> 00:48:57,320
Speaker 2: it's it's like one hundred yards or something deep in

840
00:48:57,440 --> 00:48:59,719
Speaker 2: this stuff called and you were talking about it like

841
00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:04,360
Speaker 2: some kind of muck. It's called Glaba Jurina ooze O

842
00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:09,360
Speaker 2: I at for the studio, and it's I would like

843
00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:11,759
Speaker 2: a jar of it, to be honest. And they it's

844
00:49:12,080 --> 00:49:18,320
Speaker 2: the like calcium residue from these tiny single you know,

845
00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:22,680
Speaker 2: very very small uh, sea creatures that have shells and

846
00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:24,719
Speaker 2: when they die, their shells fall to the bottom and

847
00:49:24,800 --> 00:49:28,799
Speaker 2: they become this ooze. But so that's the antipody story,

848
00:49:28,840 --> 00:49:30,880
Speaker 2: and it is in the Indian Ocean. But what But

849
00:49:31,040 --> 00:49:34,520
Speaker 2: in your piece, weren't you talking about towns in America? Yes, yeah,

850
00:49:34,600 --> 00:49:40,040
Speaker 2: because that was how it first came to me. Because Canton, Ohio,

851
00:49:40,640 --> 00:49:43,960
Speaker 2: I had heard, was named after Canton, China.

852
00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:44,640
Speaker 1: Uh.

853
00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:48,160
Speaker 2: And then there's Peak in Illinois, which supposedly is named

854
00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:50,440
Speaker 2: after Peaking as it was called them.

855
00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:52,160
Speaker 1: But not because that was their antipodies.

856
00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:54,880
Speaker 2: I think maybe they thought it was their antipathy.

857
00:49:54,960 --> 00:49:58,040
Speaker 3: You want to know what, uh, the antipity of this

858
00:49:58,160 --> 00:49:59,520
Speaker 3: place is right here we're sitting in.

859
00:49:59,600 --> 00:50:01,839
Speaker 1: How do you know? Can you just look it up now? Sure?

860
00:50:02,560 --> 00:50:07,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's Geode geodatos dot net. You can just type

861
00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:09,840
Speaker 3: in search for your antipody.

862
00:50:10,120 --> 00:50:12,160
Speaker 1: Really, God, the ruined everything.

863
00:50:12,680 --> 00:50:17,120
Speaker 3: France in the southern French southern territories, an island like

864
00:50:18,360 --> 00:50:19,240
Speaker 3: south of Africa.

865
00:50:19,719 --> 00:50:22,239
Speaker 1: South. That's where we'd come out if we drill the

866
00:50:22,239 --> 00:50:22,920
Speaker 1: hole straight down.

867
00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:23,840
Speaker 3: That's what it says.

868
00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:27,120
Speaker 1: All right, here's my next question. We don't need to

869
00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:31,400
Speaker 1: spend much more time on the antipodies I have. You

870
00:50:31,440 --> 00:50:38,600
Speaker 1: wouldn't believe how often your writing has been discussed on

871
00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:45,400
Speaker 1: this show. I've talked a lot about I'm gonna remind

872
00:50:45,440 --> 00:50:46,560
Speaker 1: you of something you wrote that I want you to

873
00:50:46,600 --> 00:50:50,120
Speaker 1: tell the broader story. Okay, you were profiling I talked

874
00:50:50,160 --> 00:50:53,880
Speaker 1: with this. You were profiling a steelhead guide.

875
00:50:54,160 --> 00:50:54,319
Speaker 2: Right.

876
00:50:55,200 --> 00:50:56,560
Speaker 1: I don't remember his name, but I remember it hit.

877
00:50:56,600 --> 00:50:59,800
Speaker 1: People would jokingly call him Melanoma Joe. Yeah, he guided

878
00:51:00,239 --> 00:51:06,040
Speaker 1: in h board shorts. I'm gonna like, let's go, there's

879
00:51:06,040 --> 00:51:08,239
Speaker 1: a spoiler alert here, and then I want you to

880
00:51:08,320 --> 00:51:13,000
Speaker 1: talk a little bit about this. Unbeknownst to you while

881
00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:17,920
Speaker 1: you're profiling him, he's contemplating suicide. And you're on a

882
00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:21,000
Speaker 1: river trip with him, right, and one night you're like,

883
00:51:21,080 --> 00:51:23,040
Speaker 1: you get up to take a leak or something, right,

884
00:51:24,640 --> 00:51:27,880
Speaker 1: And you didn't know what to make of it at

885
00:51:27,920 --> 00:51:29,560
Speaker 1: the times. You didn't know what you would later know.

886
00:51:31,239 --> 00:51:34,320
Speaker 1: But you see him down at the river's edge in

887
00:51:34,440 --> 00:51:38,320
Speaker 1: the dark at night, staring into the river, and you

888
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:41,080
Speaker 1: made some comment in your peace of reporting, you made

889
00:51:41,160 --> 00:51:44,200
Speaker 1: some comment about you were getting sort of a preview

890
00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:46,320
Speaker 1: right of him as.

891
00:51:46,200 --> 00:51:50,200
Speaker 2: A ghost, right right, Yeah, it was like seeing a ghost.

892
00:51:50,280 --> 00:51:54,080
Speaker 2: I mean I got up out of the tent and uh,

893
00:51:54,480 --> 00:51:57,040
Speaker 2: he's standing there. And there was no reason for it.

894
00:51:57,040 --> 00:51:58,880
Speaker 2: I mean, it was way late. It was on the

895
00:51:58,960 --> 00:52:03,000
Speaker 2: Dashoots River, nobody around, you know, for miles and miles

896
00:52:03,040 --> 00:52:06,200
Speaker 2: and I and I see him standing there and I

897
00:52:06,760 --> 00:52:09,200
Speaker 2: couldn't even believe it wasn't it couldn't even be. I

898
00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:11,759
Speaker 2: thought it wasn't him, and I just looked and I

899
00:52:11,960 --> 00:52:14,759
Speaker 2: kept looking at him, and it was like he then

900
00:52:15,040 --> 00:52:19,759
Speaker 2: kind of came back into focus and saw me. And

901
00:52:20,760 --> 00:52:23,040
Speaker 2: he said something like when you get old, you got

902
00:52:23,160 --> 00:52:24,680
Speaker 2: to get up and pee all the time, right, And

903
00:52:24,840 --> 00:52:26,719
Speaker 2: you know, he made some kind of nice comment like that,

904
00:52:26,920 --> 00:52:29,320
Speaker 2: just a friendly comment, and it was like it was

905
00:52:29,400 --> 00:52:32,040
Speaker 2: normal again. But then I got back in my sleeping

906
00:52:32,080 --> 00:52:34,520
Speaker 2: bag and I thought, what was he doing out there?

907
00:52:34,600 --> 00:52:36,880
Speaker 2: That was I mean, that was just weird that he

908
00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:41,480
Speaker 2: was standing there. I then wrote the piece again, this

909
00:52:41,640 --> 00:52:44,560
Speaker 2: was for Outside magazine. I wrote the piece. They sent

910
00:52:44,600 --> 00:52:47,480
Speaker 2: a photographer. They took all the photos they needed for

911
00:52:47,560 --> 00:52:47,960
Speaker 2: the piece.

912
00:52:48,239 --> 00:52:51,000
Speaker 1: But what was the when you pitched a profile of

913
00:52:51,040 --> 00:52:51,879
Speaker 1: a steelhead guide?

914
00:52:51,920 --> 00:52:51,960
Speaker 7: Like?

915
00:52:52,040 --> 00:52:54,160
Speaker 1: What were you? Why were you interested in the guy?

916
00:52:54,239 --> 00:52:58,200
Speaker 2: Because he was unbelievably good and he was really like

917
00:52:58,360 --> 00:53:03,880
Speaker 2: I had gone to he Guided out of Sisters, Oregon,

918
00:53:04,560 --> 00:53:06,640
Speaker 2: and I went to that guide shop and I said,

919
00:53:06,640 --> 00:53:09,320
Speaker 2: I want to, you know, fish with this guy, and

920
00:53:09,440 --> 00:53:12,040
Speaker 2: they said, you will never get a reservation. You know,

921
00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:14,800
Speaker 2: this guy's booked up for five years. And then that

922
00:53:14,920 --> 00:53:16,719
Speaker 2: made me think, well, this guy must be really good.

923
00:53:17,040 --> 00:53:19,239
Speaker 2: And then a guy I know, a good writer named

924
00:53:19,280 --> 00:53:23,600
Speaker 2: Ade Streep, fished with him and said, yeah, he's as

925
00:53:23,640 --> 00:53:25,560
Speaker 2: good as you know. He's really great. You should do

926
00:53:25,640 --> 00:53:26,279
Speaker 2: something about him.

927
00:53:26,640 --> 00:53:29,680
Speaker 1: And so I then persisted and then I finally did.

928
00:53:29,760 --> 00:53:31,640
Speaker 1: But that was it actually came by.

929
00:53:31,640 --> 00:53:35,600
Speaker 2: Way of outside got it because they had heard about

930
00:53:35,640 --> 00:53:38,960
Speaker 2: this guy too, So so then you know, I did

931
00:53:40,040 --> 00:53:43,160
Speaker 2: set up this trip and it was like through three

932
00:53:43,400 --> 00:53:47,080
Speaker 2: four day river trip and that you know, we caught

933
00:53:47,239 --> 00:53:50,520
Speaker 2: finally we did catch steel It, and then they took

934
00:53:50,600 --> 00:53:53,480
Speaker 2: these pictures. I signed off on the piece, was ready

935
00:53:53,520 --> 00:53:58,360
Speaker 2: to go, and then he committed suicide, and so I

936
00:53:58,440 --> 00:53:58,919
Speaker 2: went back.

937
00:53:59,000 --> 00:54:00,640
Speaker 1: I can't remember how did he kill He kills if

938
00:54:00,680 --> 00:54:01,680
Speaker 1: had a bolt launch, didn't he.

939
00:54:01,920 --> 00:54:05,520
Speaker 2: No, he killed himself in his car. And I went

940
00:54:05,600 --> 00:54:08,000
Speaker 2: to the place where he killed himself. And I mean,

941
00:54:08,040 --> 00:54:10,719
Speaker 2: there are lonesome places out here, but that was one

942
00:54:10,719 --> 00:54:12,960
Speaker 2: of the most lonesome. I mean in Oregon. Around there,

943
00:54:13,160 --> 00:54:16,040
Speaker 2: it was a place where people had shot skeet and

944
00:54:16,120 --> 00:54:18,960
Speaker 2: there were shotgun shells all over the place. It was

945
00:54:19,120 --> 00:54:22,120
Speaker 2: just like this open patch out in the forest. And

946
00:54:22,560 --> 00:54:25,839
Speaker 2: he had just parked there, and he had he had

947
00:54:25,920 --> 00:54:29,040
Speaker 2: made a few little signs in the bushes around there.

948
00:54:29,120 --> 00:54:32,080
Speaker 2: He had like left a pack of cigarettes in a bush,

949
00:54:32,560 --> 00:54:34,960
Speaker 2: in the crotch of a branch in a bush. It

950
00:54:35,080 --> 00:54:37,200
Speaker 2: was just it was a spooky thing and it was

951
00:54:37,280 --> 00:54:39,879
Speaker 2: really sad, and I felt really bad for the guy

952
00:54:39,920 --> 00:54:41,920
Speaker 2: because he was a brilliant guy.

953
00:54:41,960 --> 00:54:44,279
Speaker 1: He was a great guy. Did he shoot himself? No,

954
00:54:44,520 --> 00:54:47,759
Speaker 1: He hooked up a hose from the from the fly

955
00:54:48,000 --> 00:54:50,400
Speaker 1: shout and do you remember that?

956
00:54:50,520 --> 00:54:52,160
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, tale, that's a great detail.

957
00:54:52,320 --> 00:54:55,080
Speaker 2: He took a hose that the fly shop had used

958
00:54:55,160 --> 00:54:57,120
Speaker 2: just I think maybe just to worsh down its parking

959
00:54:57,160 --> 00:54:59,919
Speaker 2: lot or something, and he used that hose to hook

960
00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:02,480
Speaker 2: the exhaust up to his window.

961
00:55:02,680 --> 00:55:05,920
Speaker 4: And the fly shop is where he was booking all

962
00:55:05,960 --> 00:55:08,800
Speaker 4: of it. So he kind of had this slow descent

963
00:55:09,200 --> 00:55:14,239
Speaker 4: as far as from reputability, right right, So he had

964
00:55:14,280 --> 00:55:18,080
Speaker 4: gotten crossways with with this fly shop for you know

965
00:55:18,160 --> 00:55:21,879
Speaker 4: a number of I'm sure what, well, he very normal reason.

966
00:55:23,239 --> 00:55:26,000
Speaker 2: One thing that happened to him was he was guiding

967
00:55:27,320 --> 00:55:30,120
Speaker 2: clients that this fly shop really liked, and while he

968
00:55:30,360 --> 00:55:32,879
Speaker 2: was guiding, his truck was repossessed.

969
00:55:34,280 --> 00:55:36,359
Speaker 1: So suddenly gets there and his truck is gone.

970
00:55:36,719 --> 00:55:39,200
Speaker 2: It's been repossessed. And the guy and the people he

971
00:55:39,320 --> 00:55:41,560
Speaker 2: was guiding apparently didn't mind. They thought it was kind

972
00:55:41,560 --> 00:55:42,040
Speaker 2: of interesting.

973
00:55:42,640 --> 00:55:45,359
Speaker 3: But your so o, l if you're a guide without

974
00:55:45,400 --> 00:55:46,040
Speaker 3: a truck.

975
00:55:45,960 --> 00:55:48,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, he really really need to have the truck. But

976
00:55:48,880 --> 00:55:52,480
Speaker 2: so then I then went back and reported the re

977
00:55:52,640 --> 00:55:56,000
Speaker 2: reported the whole thing, and and rewrote the piece.

978
00:55:56,000 --> 00:55:58,800
Speaker 3: And yeah, it's the Last Days of Steelhead.

979
00:55:58,880 --> 00:55:59,040
Speaker 1: Joe.

980
00:55:59,440 --> 00:56:01,680
Speaker 3: You can still read it outside online.

981
00:56:01,719 --> 00:56:02,960
Speaker 1: What are some of the things you found What are

982
00:56:03,040 --> 00:56:05,359
Speaker 1: some things you found out and looked at differently after

983
00:56:05,719 --> 00:56:07,200
Speaker 1: you went back and worked on it more.

984
00:56:07,719 --> 00:56:12,560
Speaker 2: Well, these conversations I'd had with him, like that moment

985
00:56:12,600 --> 00:56:14,320
Speaker 2: when he was standing out there, I mean it was

986
00:56:14,360 --> 00:56:19,680
Speaker 2: a brief exchange, but that fell into place because the

987
00:56:19,800 --> 00:56:23,360
Speaker 2: guy was really thinking, you know, well, I mean I

988
00:56:23,400 --> 00:56:26,600
Speaker 2: don't know exactly what he was thinking, but but it

989
00:56:26,719 --> 00:56:29,000
Speaker 2: looked like he might have done it maybe even at

990
00:56:29,080 --> 00:56:31,560
Speaker 2: that point or something. I don't know what he was thinking,

991
00:56:32,360 --> 00:56:39,040
Speaker 2: but just that he was a really he was somebody

992
00:56:39,200 --> 00:56:42,360
Speaker 2: like and you must have this happen in what you do,

993
00:56:42,520 --> 00:56:46,200
Speaker 2: where you will become extremely close to somebody that you

994
00:56:46,320 --> 00:56:49,520
Speaker 2: see only for a few days. Yeah, you know, like

995
00:56:49,680 --> 00:56:52,720
Speaker 2: that happens when you're writing, Like you'll find out about somebody,

996
00:56:52,760 --> 00:56:58,239
Speaker 2: you'll get really very sympathetic with them. And also or

997
00:56:58,280 --> 00:56:59,759
Speaker 2: he maybe conflicted about it.

998
00:56:59,760 --> 00:57:00,560
Speaker 1: I mean, Joe was.

999
00:57:02,719 --> 00:57:05,920
Speaker 2: He really was not well prepared. You know, he had

1000
00:57:06,080 --> 00:57:09,880
Speaker 2: one spae rod on this trip, you know, and he

1001
00:57:09,880 --> 00:57:11,799
Speaker 2: wouldn't let me bring my fly rod. He said, you're

1002
00:57:11,840 --> 00:57:14,959
Speaker 2: gonna spay cast or nothing, And I had never spay

1003
00:57:15,080 --> 00:57:17,840
Speaker 2: cast before. And do you know how to spay cast?

1004
00:57:18,720 --> 00:57:18,960
Speaker 1: Does that?

1005
00:57:19,160 --> 00:57:19,280
Speaker 2: Do you?

1006
00:57:19,520 --> 00:57:19,560
Speaker 1: You?

1007
00:57:19,680 --> 00:57:19,800
Speaker 2: Mus?

1008
00:57:21,480 --> 00:57:23,680
Speaker 4: Yes? Yeah, I'm I'm uh.

1009
00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:25,520
Speaker 1: These guys are both fishing guys.

1010
00:57:25,360 --> 00:57:27,520
Speaker 4: Cat catch fish at all cost type of guys. So

1011
00:57:27,600 --> 00:57:30,400
Speaker 4: the spey rod doesn't see a whole lot of light

1012
00:57:30,920 --> 00:57:31,439
Speaker 4: these days.

1013
00:57:31,520 --> 00:57:34,280
Speaker 2: But well it's really I did learn it and he

1014
00:57:34,400 --> 00:57:37,560
Speaker 2: taught it to me, and that was that was amazing.

1015
00:57:37,680 --> 00:57:41,400
Speaker 2: I mean, his empathy and his ability to to like

1016
00:57:41,600 --> 00:57:43,280
Speaker 2: and and not to make you feel bad.

1017
00:57:43,520 --> 00:57:43,680
Speaker 1: You know.

1018
00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:46,360
Speaker 2: He was like if you have a history with coaches

1019
00:57:46,760 --> 00:57:48,720
Speaker 2: where coaches will tell you stuff and then you got

1020
00:57:48,760 --> 00:57:50,680
Speaker 2: off on the wrong foot with a coach and you

1021
00:57:50,840 --> 00:57:53,040
Speaker 2: just don't like to be told stuff anymore. He was

1022
00:57:53,280 --> 00:57:55,600
Speaker 2: very able to get past that, and he was just

1023
00:57:55,680 --> 00:57:59,520
Speaker 2: a kind and good man. But he was really depressive.

1024
00:57:59,760 --> 00:58:03,160
Speaker 2: And he was a descendant. He was a direct descendant

1025
00:58:03,200 --> 00:58:07,160
Speaker 2: of Thomas Jefferson for real. Yep, you checked it out.

1026
00:58:08,680 --> 00:58:11,240
Speaker 2: It was checked out. Yeah, outside would have checked that out.

1027
00:58:11,360 --> 00:58:11,560
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1028
00:58:11,920 --> 00:58:15,240
Speaker 2: His last name was Randolph, and the randolphs. I think

1029
00:58:15,800 --> 00:58:18,640
Speaker 2: Jefferson's daughter married a Randolph, so that I mean the

1030
00:58:18,720 --> 00:58:22,560
Speaker 2: Randolph is an old name from Virginia. So he.

1031
00:58:25,120 --> 00:58:26,080
Speaker 1: How this.

1032
00:58:28,040 --> 00:58:30,440
Speaker 4: There's so many parts of his story that are so

1033
00:58:30,720 --> 00:58:39,400
Speaker 4: applicable to conversations, got certain guides in shops for anybody

1034
00:58:39,400 --> 00:58:42,520
Speaker 4: who's ever done that or attempted to do that as

1035
00:58:42,520 --> 00:58:47,360
Speaker 4: a living. So I just I really found it crazy

1036
00:58:47,600 --> 00:58:52,360
Speaker 4: how you found him, because there's bits and pieces of

1037
00:58:52,480 --> 00:58:56,080
Speaker 4: his story that are hard to find in one person,

1038
00:58:56,480 --> 00:59:02,600
Speaker 4: but they're easily found in every circle in America. So

1039
00:59:03,320 --> 00:59:08,800
Speaker 4: he's a former athlete, wasn't a born and bred steelhead person,

1040
00:59:09,600 --> 00:59:15,040
Speaker 4: came out, learned it, acquires this huge client list you know,

1041
00:59:15,160 --> 00:59:19,080
Speaker 4: that are specifically requesting him, which is like a benchmark

1042
00:59:19,160 --> 00:59:24,960
Speaker 4: in the guide world. He hits this other super unattainable

1043
00:59:25,000 --> 00:59:27,760
Speaker 4: benchmark in the guiding world, which is he finds a

1044
00:59:27,920 --> 00:59:34,240
Speaker 4: super wealthy, very attractive client and marries her. Right, that's

1045
00:59:34,280 --> 00:59:36,240
Speaker 4: like a dream thing for guides.

1046
00:59:36,320 --> 00:59:38,160
Speaker 1: That that's what keeps you guys going in the morning.

1047
00:59:38,840 --> 00:59:40,000
Speaker 4: There's always that chance.

1048
00:59:40,880 --> 00:59:44,520
Speaker 1: It's a very common theme is really oh yeah, man,

1049
00:59:45,800 --> 00:59:49,120
Speaker 1: I'm happens or the guides wanted to happen.

1050
00:59:49,680 --> 00:59:51,520
Speaker 3: I know one instance where it happened.

1051
00:59:52,240 --> 00:59:55,000
Speaker 4: It's a story like it is, like I said, It's

1052
00:59:55,040 --> 00:59:59,480
Speaker 4: a story that is applicable in every guide circle in

1053
00:59:59,640 --> 01:00:02,640
Speaker 4: probably the world. But to find it all wrapped up

1054
01:00:02,680 --> 01:00:05,360
Speaker 4: in one person is like amazing.

1055
01:00:05,960 --> 01:00:09,600
Speaker 2: I had done a profile of another guide who guides

1056
01:00:09,640 --> 01:00:12,240
Speaker 2: out of stat Are. Yeah, he guides out of Staten

1057
01:00:12,280 --> 01:00:15,680
Speaker 2: Island and I fish. I haven't fished with him for

1058
01:00:15,680 --> 01:00:18,479
Speaker 2: a while, but we fish right in New York Harver

1059
01:00:18,640 --> 01:00:21,720
Speaker 2: sometimes and then we fish all along down the Jersey

1060
01:00:21,800 --> 01:00:25,640
Speaker 2: shore places that Bruce Springsteen has sung about and for

1061
01:00:25,760 --> 01:00:30,400
Speaker 2: bluefish and stripers. And I had already done that some

1062
01:00:30,600 --> 01:00:33,480
Speaker 2: years before, so I had already done a guide profile.

1063
01:00:33,720 --> 01:00:35,800
Speaker 2: But the thing is I as a kid, I fished

1064
01:00:36,360 --> 01:00:40,640
Speaker 2: by myself, and I was very much brought up fishing

1065
01:00:40,960 --> 01:00:43,760
Speaker 2: by myself. Effect I have fished from when I was

1066
01:00:43,800 --> 01:00:46,800
Speaker 2: a kid and did not need a license until I

1067
01:00:46,880 --> 01:00:49,280
Speaker 2: am an old man and do not need a license.

1068
01:00:51,400 --> 01:00:52,120
Speaker 1: That's awesome.

1069
01:00:52,720 --> 01:00:56,360
Speaker 2: And I came up as somebody fishing by himself, and

1070
01:00:56,520 --> 01:00:58,320
Speaker 2: when I had to fish with guides, it was a

1071
01:00:58,360 --> 01:01:01,280
Speaker 2: big adjustment because I didn't like because I was just

1072
01:01:01,400 --> 01:01:03,800
Speaker 2: old old or too old to go, you know. And

1073
01:01:03,880 --> 01:01:05,840
Speaker 2: plus plays like the to Shoots you have to have

1074
01:01:05,880 --> 01:01:12,480
Speaker 2: a guide basically. But but so I became very when

1075
01:01:12,520 --> 01:01:14,880
Speaker 2: I found a guide I really liked. It was a

1076
01:01:14,960 --> 01:01:16,120
Speaker 2: big It was a big deal.

1077
01:01:16,720 --> 01:01:20,920
Speaker 4: But what what if I got to finish the Okay,

1078
01:01:21,040 --> 01:01:23,120
Speaker 4: But this is a rise and fall story, so it

1079
01:01:23,280 --> 01:01:27,560
Speaker 4: also includes all these little bits and pieces again found

1080
01:01:28,040 --> 01:01:29,880
Speaker 4: that are ubiquitous in the guide community.

1081
01:01:30,000 --> 01:01:30,120
Speaker 1: Right.

1082
01:01:30,520 --> 01:01:32,680
Speaker 4: So he's at the top of his game, and then

1083
01:01:32,720 --> 01:01:37,960
Speaker 4: he starts starts losing and in ways that are again

1084
01:01:38,480 --> 01:01:45,120
Speaker 4: very relatable in all the guide circles. Divorce, money, mismanagement,

1085
01:01:45,760 --> 01:01:51,440
Speaker 4: crossways with his guide shops, right, starts taking some illegal

1086
01:01:51,520 --> 01:01:53,480
Speaker 4: trips on the side. I think was part of it too.

1087
01:01:53,920 --> 01:01:55,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean the thing that is a familiar story

1088
01:01:55,920 --> 01:01:58,200
Speaker 1: to you, absolutely to anybody who guides.

1089
01:01:58,320 --> 01:02:01,680
Speaker 2: He had a license to guide through the guide shop,

1090
01:02:02,360 --> 01:02:06,200
Speaker 2: through the tackle shop, and when they fired him, he

1091
01:02:06,360 --> 01:02:07,440
Speaker 2: did not have a guide.

1092
01:02:07,680 --> 01:02:09,200
Speaker 1: He did not have a license to guide.

1093
01:02:09,560 --> 01:02:12,640
Speaker 2: And so then he got a license to do float trips,

1094
01:02:12,800 --> 01:02:15,760
Speaker 2: but that wasn't the same, and so he was actually

1095
01:02:15,880 --> 01:02:19,400
Speaker 2: guiding with a float trip license, got it, and that

1096
01:02:19,680 --> 01:02:21,760
Speaker 2: was you know, and he got caught doing that and

1097
01:02:21,880 --> 01:02:23,680
Speaker 2: he was going to be going to trial and he

1098
01:02:23,720 --> 01:02:26,600
Speaker 2: would have lost his ability to guide in Oregon for

1099
01:02:27,680 --> 01:02:28,520
Speaker 2: five years.

1100
01:02:28,400 --> 01:02:29,080
Speaker 1: Or something like that.

1101
01:02:29,320 --> 01:02:30,840
Speaker 2: So he was really up against it.

1102
01:02:31,120 --> 01:02:33,560
Speaker 4: So when you did your trip, was he I think

1103
01:02:33,640 --> 01:02:34,720
Speaker 4: he was fishing guide?

1104
01:02:35,080 --> 01:02:37,240
Speaker 2: Uh no, wait a minute, Yes, I think he still

1105
01:02:37,440 --> 01:02:39,400
Speaker 2: was when we did our trip because I booked that

1106
01:02:39,520 --> 01:02:41,640
Speaker 2: through that shop. So yeah, I think he still want

1107
01:02:41,800 --> 01:02:42,000
Speaker 2: to me.

1108
01:02:42,160 --> 01:02:45,600
Speaker 4: The like the whole picture was like, this is like

1109
01:02:45,640 --> 01:02:47,840
Speaker 4: an under the table trip. It just had the feel

1110
01:02:47,920 --> 01:02:49,880
Speaker 4: of that to me because.

1111
01:02:50,040 --> 01:02:51,720
Speaker 1: He can't do that a writer, because you're going to

1112
01:02:51,760 --> 01:02:52,240
Speaker 1: get busted.

1113
01:02:53,280 --> 01:02:54,280
Speaker 4: He didn't think he cared.

1114
01:02:54,480 --> 01:02:57,160
Speaker 1: Oh he didn't tell me. I don't think I had

1115
01:02:57,280 --> 01:02:58,800
Speaker 1: no inkling of that at the time.

1116
01:02:58,920 --> 01:03:01,560
Speaker 3: If you booked it through a shot, it wasn't it

1117
01:03:01,720 --> 01:03:02,600
Speaker 3: wasn't under the table.

1118
01:03:02,640 --> 01:03:05,040
Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure it was before he got fired. I mean,

1119
01:03:05,080 --> 01:03:07,120
Speaker 2: probably the people from the shop are listening and they'll

1120
01:03:07,520 --> 01:03:08,400
Speaker 2: they'll clear this up.

1121
01:03:08,520 --> 01:03:10,480
Speaker 4: But that's why all those points made it just like

1122
01:03:10,600 --> 01:03:12,440
Speaker 4: so's exiting thing that happens.

1123
01:03:12,560 --> 01:03:16,840
Speaker 2: Well, I feel like there should be somebody who specializes

1124
01:03:16,880 --> 01:03:20,160
Speaker 2: in mental health of guides because it is an enormously

1125
01:03:20,280 --> 01:03:24,000
Speaker 2: difficult profession and and it's I mean, I sympathize with

1126
01:03:24,040 --> 01:03:25,960
Speaker 2: it because I'm a freelance writer and it's just up

1127
01:03:26,040 --> 01:03:27,920
Speaker 2: and down and are you going to get paid or

1128
01:03:28,120 --> 01:03:29,800
Speaker 2: you know what, how how is it going to go?

1129
01:03:30,000 --> 01:03:33,640
Speaker 4: And also you know the emotional cost of finding ways

1130
01:03:33,680 --> 01:03:36,400
Speaker 4: to connect with every right, you got a new client

1131
01:03:36,520 --> 01:03:39,960
Speaker 4: every day, rightly, right, and you got to make those

1132
01:03:40,000 --> 01:03:44,320
Speaker 4: connections in order to have just good basic communications.

1133
01:03:43,600 --> 01:03:46,280
Speaker 3: And the beauty of having the same clients year after year.

1134
01:03:46,640 --> 01:03:48,560
Speaker 3: You don't got it like you figure them out after

1135
01:03:48,600 --> 01:03:50,440
Speaker 3: a couple of years of gutting the same people over

1136
01:03:50,520 --> 01:03:51,160
Speaker 3: and over again.

1137
01:03:51,240 --> 01:03:53,960
Speaker 1: And yeah, yeah, Brody got to where you didn't really

1138
01:03:54,000 --> 01:03:54,760
Speaker 1: take new clients.

1139
01:03:54,840 --> 01:03:58,720
Speaker 4: No, no, which again is like one of those things

1140
01:03:58,760 --> 01:04:01,440
Speaker 4: that people on the I'm up trying to get to.

1141
01:04:01,560 --> 01:04:04,480
Speaker 1: That's part of the narrative. Yeah, Yanni. One day, so

1142
01:04:04,840 --> 01:04:08,720
Speaker 1: we have another colleague, Giannis, who also guided, and one

1143
01:04:08,800 --> 01:04:10,560
Speaker 1: day he and I were sitting in we just come

1144
01:04:10,600 --> 01:04:15,720
Speaker 1: out of McDonald's drive through here in town or no,

1145
01:04:15,840 --> 01:04:17,960
Speaker 1: I can't remember what the hell were you doing. Either way,

1146
01:04:19,520 --> 01:04:23,280
Speaker 1: Here's a guideboat drives by, like obviously a guideboat kid

1147
01:04:23,360 --> 01:04:26,040
Speaker 1: pulling a you know, drift boat. And I said, oh, Yanni,

1148
01:04:26,120 --> 01:04:29,120
Speaker 1: that probably brings back memories and makes you a little

1149
01:04:29,160 --> 01:04:32,720
Speaker 1: jealous seeing that guy heading out And Yanni said, no,

1150
01:04:33,480 --> 01:04:36,880
Speaker 1: heading out fish the same damn river with some guy

1151
01:04:36,920 --> 01:04:40,280
Speaker 1: you don't feel like talking to, not at all.

1152
01:04:41,320 --> 01:04:44,280
Speaker 2: But did you ever read ninety five in the Shade, Dwayne?

1153
01:04:47,520 --> 01:04:49,920
Speaker 1: If I did, he's been on the show, though, has

1154
01:04:50,000 --> 01:04:50,400
Speaker 1: he really?

1155
01:04:50,720 --> 01:04:52,920
Speaker 2: But that is a really good book about guiding. I

1156
01:04:53,000 --> 01:04:57,480
Speaker 2: mean it's a kind of almost a melodrama in a way,

1157
01:04:57,520 --> 01:04:59,200
Speaker 2: but it's a it's a wonderful book.

1158
01:04:59,280 --> 01:05:02,240
Speaker 4: I got back from Florida hanging out with a bunch

1159
01:05:02,320 --> 01:05:06,560
Speaker 4: of uh South Florida fishing guides, uh huh. And it's

1160
01:05:06,680 --> 01:05:08,960
Speaker 4: just it's so funny, like when I first read that

1161
01:05:09,160 --> 01:05:14,800
Speaker 4: book with the the politics of guiding in a new

1162
01:05:14,880 --> 01:05:16,760
Speaker 4: spot or guiding for new people.

1163
01:05:16,760 --> 01:05:21,000
Speaker 3: And especially in South Florida, man, like you don't mess

1164
01:05:21,080 --> 01:05:21,720
Speaker 3: with other people, and.

1165
01:05:21,760 --> 01:05:24,880
Speaker 4: It's nonsensical to me, Like I was having this this

1166
01:05:25,040 --> 01:05:29,320
Speaker 4: debate on like the how territorial people are and all

1167
01:05:29,360 --> 01:05:32,000
Speaker 4: the things like it. It's just just wild. But yeah,

1168
01:05:32,080 --> 01:05:32,600
Speaker 4: they go ahead.

1169
01:05:32,640 --> 01:05:35,040
Speaker 3: That's I know guys down there that will not let

1170
01:05:35,160 --> 01:05:37,480
Speaker 3: their clients like turn on their phone because they don't

1171
01:05:37,480 --> 01:05:38,720
Speaker 3: want to mark in spots.

1172
01:05:39,080 --> 01:05:40,400
Speaker 1: Sure you know what I mean?

1173
01:05:40,600 --> 01:05:43,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and having that spot get out and then

1174
01:05:43,120 --> 01:05:45,720
Speaker 3: another guide's there the next day. You know, it's like

1175
01:05:46,640 --> 01:05:47,920
Speaker 3: it's cutthroat.

1176
01:05:57,560 --> 01:06:04,840
Speaker 1: When you were working on travels in Siberia. You want

1177
01:06:04,880 --> 01:06:06,880
Speaker 1: to spend it a bunch of time with I don't

1178
01:06:06,960 --> 01:06:08,720
Speaker 1: know what what what do you?

1179
01:06:08,880 --> 01:06:11,400
Speaker 2: So I remember talking to you about this at the time.

1180
01:06:11,280 --> 01:06:13,280
Speaker 1: Like you spent some days out on hunting trips.

1181
01:06:13,680 --> 01:06:16,000
Speaker 2: I spent days with chuk Chi guy.

1182
01:06:16,120 --> 01:06:18,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, tell about that experience. I went. You told a

1183
01:06:18,560 --> 01:06:22,360
Speaker 1: really funny story to me about a seal hunting trip

1184
01:06:22,440 --> 01:06:22,760
Speaker 1: you went on.

1185
01:06:23,760 --> 01:06:26,360
Speaker 2: I don't remember the funny part of it. Unfortunately, it

1186
01:06:26,440 --> 01:06:28,800
Speaker 2: was funny to me, Okay, it was miserable for you.

1187
01:06:29,600 --> 01:06:33,280
Speaker 2: I went like like, yeah, layout like who who those

1188
01:06:33,320 --> 01:06:34,000
Speaker 2: people are and.

1189
01:06:34,160 --> 01:06:35,000
Speaker 1: What you were doing there?

1190
01:06:35,080 --> 01:06:38,680
Speaker 2: And well, I went to Nome a bunch of times

1191
01:06:39,680 --> 01:06:42,400
Speaker 2: with the intention of flying over to Chakotka, which is

1192
01:06:42,560 --> 01:06:45,760
Speaker 2: the part of the Russian Far East that is across

1193
01:06:45,880 --> 01:06:50,120
Speaker 2: from Alaska. It's across the Bearing Strait, and Gnome has

1194
01:06:50,320 --> 01:06:52,560
Speaker 2: really terrible weather. So I was up in Nome maybe

1195
01:06:52,680 --> 01:06:55,360
Speaker 2: five times for every time I actually flew when the

1196
01:06:55,720 --> 01:06:58,040
Speaker 2: Maybe not five, but it was a bunch of times,

1197
01:06:58,080 --> 01:06:59,960
Speaker 2: and finally I got to go over.

1198
01:07:00,800 --> 01:07:02,480
Speaker 1: I didn't do it. I gotta I mess something up

1199
01:07:02,600 --> 01:07:04,959
Speaker 1: because I didn't. He set the book up a little

1200
01:07:04,960 --> 01:07:07,640
Speaker 1: bit too. I mean like you essentially, I mean you

1201
01:07:07,680 --> 01:07:11,400
Speaker 1: spent seven years working traveling there on and off, and essentially,

1202
01:07:11,480 --> 01:07:13,840
Speaker 1: like you've you've learned Russian to work on the book.

1203
01:07:14,000 --> 01:07:15,080
Speaker 1: I learned some Russian.

1204
01:07:15,200 --> 01:07:19,080
Speaker 2: I didn't I didn't get real good at it, but yeah,

1205
01:07:19,120 --> 01:07:23,920
Speaker 2: I learned some Russian. I drove with two guides, not

1206
01:07:25,280 --> 01:07:31,280
Speaker 2: angling guides, obviously, from Saint Petersburg to Vladivostar, and that

1207
01:07:31,440 --> 01:07:35,080
Speaker 2: trip was like fifteen thousand kilometers. We took side trips

1208
01:07:35,120 --> 01:07:37,720
Speaker 2: and stuff like that, but that was sort of the

1209
01:07:38,280 --> 01:07:40,840
Speaker 2: center part of the book was that across country trip.

1210
01:07:41,160 --> 01:07:43,840
Speaker 2: But I also took other smaller trips. And one of

1211
01:07:43,880 --> 01:07:48,680
Speaker 2: the smaller trips that I took was from Alaska to Chikotka.

1212
01:07:48,960 --> 01:07:50,680
Speaker 1: I need to throw in one more tidbit before you go.

1213
01:07:50,840 --> 01:07:52,840
Speaker 1: I know I told you to go, but now I'm

1214
01:07:52,960 --> 01:07:56,280
Speaker 1: wish i'd done it in different orders. Two really funny things.

1215
01:07:56,440 --> 01:07:58,920
Speaker 1: I mean, the book is good, place is heart wrenching,

1216
01:07:58,960 --> 01:08:02,320
Speaker 1: but there's two parts, probably more funny parts in the book.

1217
01:08:02,560 --> 01:08:07,240
Speaker 1: But you observe one day that you observe a car

1218
01:08:07,400 --> 01:08:10,120
Speaker 1: coming down the road and it's towing another car. Yeah,

1219
01:08:10,920 --> 01:08:13,400
Speaker 1: and instead of and what they're using for a toastrap?

1220
01:08:13,520 --> 01:08:17,160
Speaker 1: Is a safety belt a seat belt? And you had

1221
01:08:17,200 --> 01:08:19,320
Speaker 1: the line and you said, and all the time I

1222
01:08:19,439 --> 01:08:21,920
Speaker 1: spent in Russia, that was the only time I ever

1223
01:08:22,000 --> 01:08:26,960
Speaker 1: saw a seat belt used for anything? When was this?

1224
01:08:27,439 --> 01:08:29,160
Speaker 3: Was this after the wall came down?

1225
01:08:29,320 --> 01:08:29,760
Speaker 1: Or yeah?

1226
01:08:29,800 --> 01:08:30,000
Speaker 7: Yeah.

1227
01:08:30,120 --> 01:08:34,320
Speaker 2: I drove across Siberia in two thousand and one, Oh okay,

1228
01:08:34,640 --> 01:08:39,320
Speaker 2: and I got to the Pacific after seven weeks of

1229
01:08:39,479 --> 01:08:43,400
Speaker 2: travel on September eleventh, two thousand and one.

1230
01:08:43,880 --> 01:08:44,360
Speaker 1: Oh okay.

1231
01:08:45,120 --> 01:08:47,040
Speaker 2: So I'm there and I have a I had a

1232
01:08:47,560 --> 01:08:50,320
Speaker 2: satellite phone, and I have a message, just a text

1233
01:08:50,360 --> 01:08:55,600
Speaker 2: message from my wife saying we are okay. And I

1234
01:08:55,680 --> 01:08:58,000
Speaker 2: hadn't heard anything about it. I didn't know anything about it,

1235
01:08:58,080 --> 01:09:01,559
Speaker 2: so then I found out. But just to go back

1236
01:09:01,600 --> 01:09:05,360
Speaker 2: to talking about those because I remember telling you about this,

1237
01:09:05,520 --> 01:09:08,960
Speaker 2: and you're being fascinated by these guys. They were the

1238
01:09:09,000 --> 01:09:12,080
Speaker 2: best hunters I had ever seen, these chuck Chi guys,

1239
01:09:12,600 --> 01:09:13,640
Speaker 2: and I had hunted with.

1240
01:09:13,680 --> 01:09:17,519
Speaker 1: You by that time. But are they so? They are

1241
01:09:17,960 --> 01:09:23,040
Speaker 1: they have to like linguistically related to the Inuit cultures

1242
01:09:23,080 --> 01:09:23,880
Speaker 1: in the far north right.

1243
01:09:23,920 --> 01:09:28,360
Speaker 2: It's I mean linguistically they are connected. Some people in

1244
01:09:28,560 --> 01:09:32,679
Speaker 2: that part of Russia have relatives like on Saint Lawrence Island.

1245
01:09:33,120 --> 01:09:34,800
Speaker 2: And if you saw, if you remember from the news,

1246
01:09:34,880 --> 01:09:38,080
Speaker 2: not that long ago they started Russia started going out

1247
01:09:38,240 --> 01:09:42,679
Speaker 2: and recruiting soldiers in these really far flung villages because

1248
01:09:42,720 --> 01:09:45,639
Speaker 2: they didn't want to be recruiting in Petersburg and Moscow

1249
01:09:45,720 --> 01:09:48,479
Speaker 2: and getting people all upset. And so they went out

1250
01:09:48,520 --> 01:09:51,559
Speaker 2: and all these people, these you know, who were living

1251
01:09:51,600 --> 01:09:54,400
Speaker 2: out in the far parts of Russia, they were feeling

1252
01:09:54,479 --> 01:09:57,120
Speaker 2: the pressure of recruiting. And these two guys took a

1253
01:09:57,200 --> 01:10:02,760
Speaker 2: little aluminum boat and went from Chakoka, I think, to

1254
01:10:02,840 --> 01:10:06,320
Speaker 2: Saint Lawrence Island and then to Alaska. But they got

1255
01:10:06,360 --> 01:10:08,720
Speaker 2: out of it by just going across the strait. And

1256
01:10:08,840 --> 01:10:11,919
Speaker 2: that happens. I mean, people do cross the strait sometimes

1257
01:10:11,960 --> 01:10:15,320
Speaker 2: they come from Chakoka to Saint Lawrence Island just to

1258
01:10:15,360 --> 01:10:16,080
Speaker 2: see relatives.

1259
01:10:16,120 --> 01:10:17,639
Speaker 1: They do that in the summer.

1260
01:10:18,400 --> 01:10:22,120
Speaker 2: And so I was up there and we just went

1261
01:10:22,160 --> 01:10:25,320
Speaker 2: out to a salmon camp, which is a really cool

1262
01:10:25,360 --> 01:10:27,880
Speaker 2: place where you just hang around your nets, fill up

1263
01:10:27,880 --> 01:10:29,920
Speaker 2: with salmon, you pull in the salmon.

1264
01:10:30,000 --> 01:10:33,280
Speaker 1: You know, but not commercial is commercial Native people who

1265
01:10:33,360 --> 01:10:34,720
Speaker 1: can do that.

1266
01:10:35,680 --> 01:10:37,720
Speaker 2: I guess they have special permission to do it, but

1267
01:10:37,760 --> 01:10:39,400
Speaker 2: they take a lot of salmon, and they put them

1268
01:10:39,439 --> 01:10:42,800
Speaker 2: in big tubs and salt them down. And the main

1269
01:10:42,920 --> 01:10:45,400
Speaker 2: thing that they need is salt, and the salt back

1270
01:10:45,479 --> 01:10:47,719
Speaker 2: then was coming from the US. But all the stuff

1271
01:10:47,760 --> 01:10:50,360
Speaker 2: that they had they had Evan rude motors, you know,

1272
01:10:50,840 --> 01:10:55,280
Speaker 2: they had American rifles, they had American nets, you know.

1273
01:10:55,600 --> 01:10:57,840
Speaker 2: I mean that was where they got their supplies. But

1274
01:10:58,439 --> 01:11:02,920
Speaker 2: they they build little cairns of rocks on places where

1275
01:11:03,640 --> 01:11:06,920
Speaker 2: a seal is likely to be swimming around, and they

1276
01:11:07,080 --> 01:11:09,479
Speaker 2: just sit there for a really long time with their

1277
01:11:09,520 --> 01:11:12,479
Speaker 2: guns propped on these cairns, and they wait for a

1278
01:11:12,560 --> 01:11:14,960
Speaker 2: seal to pop up, and they shoot the seal in

1279
01:11:15,040 --> 01:11:17,600
Speaker 2: the head. That's the part that you can see. And

1280
01:11:17,800 --> 01:11:20,800
Speaker 2: I was in a boat with a guy who hit

1281
01:11:20,920 --> 01:11:24,920
Speaker 2: a seal in the head with no scope. I mean,

1282
01:11:25,080 --> 01:11:28,880
Speaker 2: it's just you know what is it just open sites

1283
01:11:28,960 --> 01:11:32,840
Speaker 2: or god? And it was just phenomenal shot at some

1284
01:11:33,040 --> 01:11:36,880
Speaker 2: distance and the water is really blue and it's extremely.

1285
01:11:36,360 --> 01:11:38,559
Speaker 1: Cold, so you don't want to fall out of the boat.

1286
01:11:38,560 --> 01:11:42,519
Speaker 2: You're gonna die. But just to see that seal hit

1287
01:11:42,640 --> 01:11:45,719
Speaker 2: and then this big plume of blood in that blue water,

1288
01:11:46,280 --> 01:11:49,320
Speaker 2: and he brought the seal in and butchered it. Out

1289
01:11:49,400 --> 01:11:54,799
Speaker 2: and his wife made the seal liver with angel hair pasta,

1290
01:11:57,640 --> 01:12:00,559
Speaker 2: and it was excellent. It was an excellent dinner.

1291
01:12:02,200 --> 01:12:04,640
Speaker 1: Uh did uh. This is another funny thing you talk

1292
01:12:04,680 --> 01:12:06,320
Speaker 1: about that I don't know if you ever figured it out.

1293
01:12:09,320 --> 01:12:11,760
Speaker 1: This actually is funny. Where when when you told me

1294
01:12:11,840 --> 01:12:13,080
Speaker 1: the story about when I said it was a funny

1295
01:12:13,080 --> 01:12:15,120
Speaker 1: story about the day you went is you really wanted

1296
01:12:15,200 --> 01:12:16,920
Speaker 1: You were out and you were talking about how bad

1297
01:12:17,080 --> 01:12:19,679
Speaker 1: you wanted to go home. Oh yeah, and you're molting

1298
01:12:19,720 --> 01:12:22,320
Speaker 1: along in a boat and you talked about all of

1299
01:12:22,360 --> 01:12:27,519
Speaker 1: a sudden, this duck flies overhead and spins around and

1300
01:12:27,600 --> 01:12:30,840
Speaker 1: lands in some bay, and all you wanted to do

1301
01:12:30,960 --> 01:12:33,639
Speaker 1: is get back. And you saw him all watch that duck,

1302
01:12:35,360 --> 01:12:38,360
Speaker 1: and you're like, please, no, please, no please. And also

1303
01:12:38,479 --> 01:12:41,320
Speaker 1: he said that boat turns. It was.

1304
01:12:42,960 --> 01:12:46,960
Speaker 2: Oh my god, really it was an eider duck and

1305
01:12:47,120 --> 01:12:49,400
Speaker 2: eider down is real valuable.

1306
01:12:49,560 --> 01:12:52,840
Speaker 1: So I was like, you're like headed back, but you're like.

1307
01:12:55,200 --> 01:12:58,160
Speaker 2: They would stay out all day and and they and

1308
01:12:58,280 --> 01:13:00,960
Speaker 2: they spoke good Russian. I mean they chukchi, but they

1309
01:13:01,000 --> 01:13:05,160
Speaker 2: spoke Russian. And they had been educated in Petersburg. The

1310
01:13:05,760 --> 01:13:09,480
Speaker 2: guy had been head of his reindeer brigade. Under communism,

1311
01:13:10,080 --> 01:13:14,560
Speaker 2: you know, they had like different reindeer collectives, and so

1312
01:13:14,720 --> 01:13:16,640
Speaker 2: he was really well educated. He knew a lot of

1313
01:13:16,680 --> 01:13:19,880
Speaker 2: poetry by heart, and you know, but he was he

1314
01:13:20,040 --> 01:13:23,280
Speaker 2: was like America, and he was like an American native guy.

1315
01:13:23,840 --> 01:13:27,160
Speaker 2: And at that time, the native people there that I

1316
01:13:27,320 --> 01:13:31,400
Speaker 2: saw were doing better than the Russian Russians because they

1317
01:13:31,560 --> 01:13:34,799
Speaker 2: just had stopped for a long period there, had stopped

1318
01:13:34,880 --> 01:13:38,880
Speaker 2: doing trips to Russia, you know, they had stopped to

1319
01:13:38,960 --> 01:13:43,000
Speaker 2: the Far East, they had stopped supplying those really remote cities.

1320
01:13:43,720 --> 01:13:46,479
Speaker 2: So all I could have bought an apartment there for

1321
01:13:46,520 --> 01:13:50,120
Speaker 2: a thousand bucks, a beautiful duplex in Providenia, Russia.

1322
01:13:50,400 --> 01:13:54,640
Speaker 1: Really. Yeah, what I was saying about a funny thing,

1323
01:13:54,760 --> 01:13:56,360
Speaker 1: A funny story you do tell in that book is

1324
01:13:56,400 --> 01:14:00,880
Speaker 1: you're camping somewhere alongside of a road and you're in

1325
01:14:00,920 --> 01:14:03,600
Speaker 1: your tent and you and you wake up at night

1326
01:14:03,640 --> 01:14:05,800
Speaker 1: there's a bunch of drunk guys of somehow like also

1327
01:14:05,920 --> 01:14:08,439
Speaker 1: pulled out at the turnout. You're like, can't the turnout right?

1328
01:14:10,080 --> 01:14:13,440
Speaker 1: And you know enough Russian to know that they're debating

1329
01:14:14,400 --> 01:14:17,040
Speaker 1: doing something to your tent, but you don't recognize that.

1330
01:14:17,360 --> 01:14:18,800
Speaker 1: But you didn't recognize the verb.

1331
01:14:21,400 --> 01:14:28,640
Speaker 2: The noun is palatka, and theyre and and the accusative

1332
01:14:28,720 --> 01:14:32,800
Speaker 2: that is it was obviously in the accusative case in

1333
01:14:32,960 --> 01:14:35,439
Speaker 2: the So they were saying, you know, what are we

1334
01:14:35,520 --> 01:14:37,960
Speaker 2: going to do to the palatka? This I could keep hearing,

1335
01:14:38,280 --> 01:14:41,040
Speaker 2: and when guys saying, don't do anything to it, kind

1336
01:14:41,080 --> 01:14:44,280
Speaker 2: of that, don't come on, We're just gonna do blah

1337
01:14:44,280 --> 01:14:46,120
Speaker 2: blah blah, and I assumed they were going to tear

1338
01:14:46,160 --> 01:14:48,280
Speaker 2: it down and just leave me lying there and sleeping.

1339
01:14:49,240 --> 01:14:51,839
Speaker 2: And my guides, of course, were gone, because my guides

1340
01:14:52,320 --> 01:14:58,280
Speaker 2: managed to meet women all the way across the Russian Federation,

1341
01:14:58,640 --> 01:15:02,880
Speaker 2: and they would they would disappear in the evening and

1342
01:15:02,920 --> 01:15:05,000
Speaker 2: I'd just be there and there'd be drunks driving around,

1343
01:15:05,200 --> 01:15:08,160
Speaker 2: and I would go to sleep, and they would bring

1344
01:15:08,800 --> 01:15:13,720
Speaker 2: women for me to meet, and they would say, oh,

1345
01:15:13,840 --> 01:15:16,639
Speaker 2: we told them that we had an American and she's

1346
01:15:16,720 --> 01:15:19,439
Speaker 2: an elementary school teacher. And I would get out, I'd

1347
01:15:19,479 --> 01:15:22,280
Speaker 2: be in my pajamas, I'd talk briefly, and I would

1348
01:15:22,320 --> 01:15:22,920
Speaker 2: go back to bed.

1349
01:15:23,000 --> 01:15:26,120
Speaker 1: I didn't I didn't drink in Russia, and I didn't

1350
01:15:26,840 --> 01:15:29,360
Speaker 1: do anything else like that, Because are you totally not

1351
01:15:29,479 --> 01:15:30,080
Speaker 1: drinking right now?

1352
01:15:30,200 --> 01:15:31,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, I haven't had a drink at sixteen years.

1353
01:15:32,520 --> 01:15:34,800
Speaker 1: I remember when you were quitting drinking. Yeah, I remember

1354
01:15:34,800 --> 01:15:36,800
Speaker 1: you telling me you're sick of the hangovers. I was

1355
01:15:36,840 --> 01:15:41,479
Speaker 1: sick of the hangovers, and I was just it was

1356
01:15:41,640 --> 01:15:43,720
Speaker 1: just I drunk enough. I was tired of it and

1357
01:15:43,840 --> 01:15:45,880
Speaker 1: never got back into it, never got back in. No

1358
01:15:46,720 --> 01:15:49,240
Speaker 1: do you feel like an urge or no? No anymore?

1359
01:15:49,320 --> 01:15:51,280
Speaker 1: Do you drink na stuff? I do?

1360
01:15:51,600 --> 01:15:54,439
Speaker 2: And I get made people make fun of me for it. Sure,

1361
01:15:54,920 --> 01:15:58,719
Speaker 2: I mean ordering a non alcoholic beer in Russia's like, ah,

1362
01:16:00,200 --> 01:16:02,880
Speaker 2: like you have to be in see you know? So

1363
01:16:03,600 --> 01:16:07,040
Speaker 2: uh yeah, but it was I mean I felt I

1364
01:16:07,160 --> 01:16:10,640
Speaker 2: needed my wits about me there, so I didn't. I

1365
01:16:10,680 --> 01:16:13,080
Speaker 2: didn't drink. And people had told me. My Russian friends

1366
01:16:13,120 --> 01:16:15,920
Speaker 2: had said, you know, oh you'll be killed. They'll you know,

1367
01:16:16,120 --> 01:16:20,240
Speaker 2: this is a terrible idea, and I think it was

1368
01:16:20,360 --> 01:16:22,479
Speaker 2: less dangerous than they had made it out to be.

1369
01:16:22,720 --> 01:16:24,360
Speaker 1: But I didn't really.

1370
01:16:24,960 --> 01:16:29,600
Speaker 2: I was blind with kind of romantic notions of what

1371
01:16:29,760 --> 01:16:32,479
Speaker 2: Russia was like and what Siberia was like, So I didn't,

1372
01:16:33,040 --> 01:16:35,400
Speaker 2: you know, like the recent thing that has happened, I mean,

1373
01:16:35,479 --> 01:16:38,280
Speaker 2: the invasion, It was just to me, I thought Putin

1374
01:16:38,439 --> 01:16:42,080
Speaker 2: was just funny. You know, he's not just funny. He's

1375
01:16:42,120 --> 01:16:45,360
Speaker 2: not funny, but I thought he was funny. I mean,

1376
01:16:45,400 --> 01:16:48,280
Speaker 2: you can go online find him singing. I found my

1377
01:16:48,439 --> 01:16:49,840
Speaker 2: thrill on Blueberry Hill.

1378
01:16:50,439 --> 01:16:53,320
Speaker 1: Fishing big old yellow perch and no shirt on fishing

1379
01:16:53,400 --> 01:16:54,840
Speaker 1: northern and northerns.

1380
01:16:54,960 --> 01:16:56,000
Speaker 2: He's into northerns.

1381
01:16:56,080 --> 01:16:58,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, you and Bible to do that book?

1382
01:16:58,760 --> 01:17:02,080
Speaker 2: Now, man, No, I mean I might be able to

1383
01:17:02,200 --> 01:17:04,800
Speaker 2: go there, but I don't think I would. Who knows

1384
01:17:05,160 --> 01:17:06,680
Speaker 2: getting back, getting out? I don't know.

1385
01:17:06,720 --> 01:17:07,479
Speaker 1: I wouldn't try it.

1386
01:17:07,600 --> 01:17:10,960
Speaker 4: Now, it does sound like a lot of that romanticism

1387
01:17:11,040 --> 01:17:13,160
Speaker 4: did line up for you though, once you made it

1388
01:17:13,240 --> 01:17:13,599
Speaker 4: out there.

1389
01:17:14,439 --> 01:17:15,360
Speaker 1: Well, I mean I.

1390
01:17:15,439 --> 01:17:19,160
Speaker 2: Went to places that a famous traveler from my family's

1391
01:17:19,320 --> 01:17:23,360
Speaker 2: town where my family lived in Ohio, Norwalk, Ohio, this

1392
01:17:23,439 --> 01:17:26,759
Speaker 2: guy named George Kennon went there in the eighteen eighties.

1393
01:17:27,280 --> 01:17:31,840
Speaker 2: After the assassination of the Tzar in eighteen eighty one,

1394
01:17:31,920 --> 01:17:35,320
Speaker 2: there were all these people shipped to Siberia in order

1395
01:17:35,439 --> 01:17:38,080
Speaker 2: for this clamp down to be effective, and it wasn't

1396
01:17:38,120 --> 01:17:40,200
Speaker 2: really effective, but they shipped a lot of people there,

1397
01:17:40,520 --> 01:17:43,120
Speaker 2: and George Kennan went there to see how those people

1398
01:17:43,200 --> 01:17:46,240
Speaker 2: were doing that had been exiled, and the Tsars were

1399
01:17:46,880 --> 01:17:50,519
Speaker 2: disorganized and liberal or whatever enough that they did still

1400
01:17:50,560 --> 01:17:53,839
Speaker 2: permit that kind of travel. But Kennon had a minder,

1401
01:17:54,520 --> 01:17:56,560
Speaker 2: some kind of police minder with him a lot of

1402
01:17:56,600 --> 01:18:00,280
Speaker 2: the time. But he actually, I think maybe he was

1403
01:18:00,320 --> 01:18:02,920
Speaker 2: pretty much on his own because they they liked Kennon

1404
01:18:03,360 --> 01:18:09,640
Speaker 2: and he did this amazing book about Siberia called Siberia

1405
01:18:09,680 --> 01:18:16,200
Speaker 2: and the Prison Exile System, which Anton Chekhov read and

1406
01:18:16,439 --> 01:18:19,920
Speaker 2: made his own trip. So this guy from Ohio inspired

1407
01:18:20,040 --> 01:18:23,080
Speaker 2: one of the greatest writers of all time, Anton Chekhov,

1408
01:18:23,439 --> 01:18:28,599
Speaker 2: to go to Sakalen Island, So, which is I think

1409
01:18:28,800 --> 01:18:30,880
Speaker 2: south of Kamchaka, but it's another island.

1410
01:18:31,040 --> 01:18:34,000
Speaker 1: Like that. Were we recording when I said something about

1411
01:18:34,040 --> 01:18:37,240
Speaker 1: don't make don't make Stalin jokes or was that pre recording?

1412
01:18:38,200 --> 01:18:40,880
Speaker 1: I don't know, Hey, if I know, Phil, we were

1413
01:18:41,000 --> 01:18:44,439
Speaker 1: recording earlier. I made a comment and you looked, you

1414
01:18:44,560 --> 01:18:47,160
Speaker 1: looked when I said that that you had that. There

1415
01:18:47,200 --> 01:18:48,960
Speaker 1: was a part of the book where you argue about

1416
01:18:48,960 --> 01:18:53,519
Speaker 1: that Stalin, like how people make Stalin references. And you

1417
01:18:53,680 --> 01:18:56,719
Speaker 1: get into the towards the end of your book Travels

1418
01:18:56,760 --> 01:19:00,360
Speaker 1: in Siberia, you get into the Gulag system, right, just

1419
01:19:00,439 --> 01:19:03,439
Speaker 1: all the I mean, I don't know if you still

1420
01:19:03,479 --> 01:19:05,280
Speaker 1: remember some of the staffs. I mean, just like the

1421
01:19:05,400 --> 01:19:06,520
Speaker 1: horrible atrocities.

1422
01:19:07,400 --> 01:19:10,200
Speaker 2: It was a horrible Yeah, they were death cams. I

1423
01:19:10,280 --> 01:19:16,760
Speaker 2: mean they there were people that there were degrees of horribleness.

1424
01:19:16,920 --> 01:19:20,880
Speaker 2: But the people that mined gold in Magadan, you know,

1425
01:19:21,040 --> 01:19:25,280
Speaker 2: I mean Russia, nobody was honoring anything. Russia had to

1426
01:19:25,320 --> 01:19:29,439
Speaker 2: buy stuff with gold because they had already defaulted on

1427
01:19:29,520 --> 01:19:32,719
Speaker 2: their debts when the Soviets took over, and the gold

1428
01:19:32,800 --> 01:19:35,800
Speaker 2: mining operation in Magadan was a murderous thing.

1429
01:19:35,960 --> 01:19:39,320
Speaker 1: Absolutely, yeah. I mean millions of people killed.

1430
01:19:39,680 --> 01:19:42,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean from the beginning of the Russian from

1431
01:19:42,720 --> 01:19:46,000
Speaker 2: the Russian Revolution through like the end of the Soviet Union.

1432
01:19:47,200 --> 01:19:49,880
Speaker 2: I mean people estimate sixty million or seventy million. That

1433
01:19:50,000 --> 01:19:52,519
Speaker 2: includes you know, like what we lost four hundred and

1434
01:19:52,560 --> 01:19:55,000
Speaker 2: seventy five thousand people in World War Two, which is

1435
01:19:55,080 --> 01:19:58,160
Speaker 2: a real serious thing. If you think about, like in

1436
01:19:58,280 --> 01:20:01,200
Speaker 2: terms of now what our population is, that would be

1437
01:20:01,240 --> 01:20:01,960
Speaker 2: a serious.

1438
01:20:01,680 --> 01:20:04,759
Speaker 1: The US lost that the US lost that for reference,

1439
01:20:04,880 --> 01:20:07,800
Speaker 1: fifty seven thousand in Vietnam, right and.

1440
01:20:07,960 --> 01:20:10,560
Speaker 2: Right, four hundred and seventy I think it was like

1441
01:20:10,640 --> 01:20:13,760
Speaker 2: four hundred and seventy five thousand in the Second World War,

1442
01:20:14,240 --> 01:20:17,920
Speaker 2: it was under I believe under five hundred thousand. The

1443
01:20:18,000 --> 01:20:21,840
Speaker 2: Russians lost twenty million in that war, so that when

1444
01:20:21,840 --> 01:20:24,600
Speaker 2: I would say to Russians, well, we helped you, you know,

1445
01:20:27,160 --> 01:20:30,439
Speaker 2: like we held their coats while they fought the Nazis,

1446
01:20:30,560 --> 01:20:32,559
Speaker 2: you know, like I mean, they don't think. They don't

1447
01:20:32,560 --> 01:20:35,559
Speaker 2: take it seriously. Even though we did supply a lot

1448
01:20:35,600 --> 01:20:36,320
Speaker 2: of their air force.

1449
01:20:36,439 --> 01:20:37,479
Speaker 1: A lot of their air force.

1450
01:20:37,520 --> 01:20:40,720
Speaker 2: Was made in Detroit and then shipped up here to

1451
01:20:40,800 --> 01:20:44,639
Speaker 2: Helena where they painted the Soviet markings on the planes

1452
01:20:45,120 --> 01:20:49,120
Speaker 2: and then flown up to Alaska and pilots from Alaska

1453
01:20:49,160 --> 01:20:51,280
Speaker 2: would fly it over to the Russian pilots who would

1454
01:20:51,280 --> 01:20:53,320
Speaker 2: pick it up on the other side and fly it

1455
01:20:53,439 --> 01:20:59,960
Speaker 2: back to the to the Western Front. So we did participate,

1456
01:21:00,040 --> 01:21:02,479
Speaker 2: hate very much in helping them, but they don't.

1457
01:21:02,880 --> 01:21:05,360
Speaker 1: They didn't. The people I talked to were very unimpressed

1458
01:21:05,400 --> 01:21:10,320
Speaker 1: by that. Uh, there's a piece you wrote. I don't

1459
01:21:10,360 --> 01:21:12,160
Speaker 1: know you wrote this long time ago, but I've always

1460
01:21:12,200 --> 01:21:14,880
Speaker 1: loved it. Is Uh, you were living up in did

1461
01:21:14,920 --> 01:21:20,640
Speaker 1: you live You live in big Fork, Montana. Yeah, And

1462
01:21:20,800 --> 01:21:26,639
Speaker 1: when you were living in big Fork, Montana, you liked

1463
01:21:27,160 --> 01:21:31,760
Speaker 1: you liked the amount of reporting in the local newspapers

1464
01:21:31,800 --> 01:21:36,160
Speaker 1: that would occur about bears. Yeah, and you wrote a

1465
01:21:36,240 --> 01:21:40,000
Speaker 1: piece of You wrote a piece of reporting about how

1466
01:21:40,479 --> 01:21:45,639
Speaker 1: bears are reported on. Yeah. It was called bear News. Yeah,

1467
01:21:45,720 --> 01:21:48,160
Speaker 1: and I remember in it you made the observation about

1468
01:21:48,320 --> 01:21:54,759
Speaker 1: when a bear committed a senseless killing. Yeah, that grizzly

1469
01:21:55,040 --> 01:21:59,840
Speaker 1: committed a senseless killing over human. Did you ever read

1470
01:21:59,880 --> 01:22:02,680
Speaker 1: that book Night of the Grizzlies. Oh? Yeah, that was

1471
01:22:02,720 --> 01:22:04,280
Speaker 1: the same guy that wrote Give a Boy a Gun

1472
01:22:04,360 --> 01:22:07,799
Speaker 1: about Claude Dallas. Right. I know his name is Olsen

1473
01:22:07,840 --> 01:22:10,720
Speaker 1: and he wrote sports jack Olson, Jack Olsen. Yeah, yeah

1474
01:22:10,800 --> 01:22:14,160
Speaker 1: he did. I think Jack Olsen, I'm not I'm not familiar.

1475
01:22:14,280 --> 01:22:19,720
Speaker 1: So do you remember the story well enough to tell

1476
01:22:19,760 --> 01:22:22,120
Speaker 1: me it's to night? Well you may remember it better.

1477
01:22:22,200 --> 01:22:25,360
Speaker 2: But two bears after they're not having been any bear

1478
01:22:25,439 --> 01:22:29,400
Speaker 2: attacks for years, on the same night, in very different,

1479
01:22:29,800 --> 01:22:33,639
Speaker 2: widely separated parts of the park, uh killed a camper,

1480
01:22:34,200 --> 01:22:35,599
Speaker 2: Each bear killed a camp.

1481
01:22:35,720 --> 01:22:37,720
Speaker 1: Two bears killed two women and no one had been

1482
01:22:37,840 --> 01:22:40,559
Speaker 1: killed by a bear park and having the same damn night.

1483
01:22:40,760 --> 01:22:44,360
Speaker 2: Right, it was this, Yeah, it was a very It's

1484
01:22:45,479 --> 01:22:48,120
Speaker 2: My wife and I were married in Big four and

1485
01:22:48,280 --> 01:22:52,840
Speaker 2: we gave that book as a gift to our wedding guests,

1486
01:22:55,080 --> 01:22:56,840
Speaker 2: and we didn't really we just been thinking, Wow, this

1487
01:22:56,960 --> 01:22:58,880
Speaker 2: is a good book, and we didn't think it was

1488
01:22:59,000 --> 01:23:02,200
Speaker 2: kind of under productive in terms of Montana tourism.

1489
01:23:02,320 --> 01:23:02,800
Speaker 5: But but.

1490
01:23:04,840 --> 01:23:10,040
Speaker 4: The Todd Strasser is your give a boy a gun.

1491
01:23:10,320 --> 01:23:17,000
Speaker 1: Oh, Jack Olsen didn't write a book about Claude Dallas. Nothing,

1492
01:23:17,040 --> 01:23:19,960
Speaker 1: I'm ce in here.

1493
01:23:20,200 --> 01:23:25,360
Speaker 4: But uh, tourism plays heavily in wildlife news in the

1494
01:23:25,479 --> 01:23:32,320
Speaker 4: Greater Glacier National Park white fish tourist ecosystem up there.

1495
01:23:34,360 --> 01:23:38,360
Speaker 4: So yes, the bear news is a is a real thing,

1496
01:23:38,640 --> 01:23:41,760
Speaker 4: and there's a lot of suppressed news from a lot

1497
01:23:41,840 --> 01:23:44,800
Speaker 4: of a lot of folks inside the park, as I

1498
01:23:44,920 --> 01:23:45,519
Speaker 4: understand it.

1499
01:23:45,680 --> 01:23:48,760
Speaker 1: So walk me through that part of your life when

1500
01:23:48,800 --> 01:23:53,240
Speaker 1: you So you came to Big Fork and how did

1501
01:23:53,280 --> 01:23:55,840
Speaker 1: you get going on the idea that you would write

1502
01:23:55,840 --> 01:23:58,280
Speaker 1: a book about the American Great planes and travel all

1503
01:23:58,320 --> 01:23:59,680
Speaker 1: over the Great Plains and live in a van.

1504
01:24:00,600 --> 01:24:03,920
Speaker 2: Well, I came to I left New York City and

1505
01:24:04,280 --> 01:24:06,519
Speaker 2: moved out, and I didn't know anybody in Montana. I

1506
01:24:06,560 --> 01:24:11,680
Speaker 2: didn't know one person, and I moved up to near Kallispell.

1507
01:24:12,160 --> 01:24:16,960
Speaker 2: For what reason, I just wanted to change everything.

1508
01:24:17,120 --> 01:24:17,640
Speaker 1: When was this.

1509
01:24:18,240 --> 01:24:25,640
Speaker 2: That was like nineteen eighty two, and so I just

1510
01:24:25,800 --> 01:24:27,840
Speaker 2: made a huge change and I just moved out. And

1511
01:24:27,960 --> 01:24:32,280
Speaker 2: I wanted to I wanted to just do something bigger,

1512
01:24:32,360 --> 01:24:34,400
Speaker 2: and I didn't know quite what to do. I was

1513
01:24:34,479 --> 01:24:39,960
Speaker 2: writing short pieces, and they're very addictive short pieces, because

1514
01:24:40,040 --> 01:24:42,040
Speaker 2: you know, you get an idea, you do it, you

1515
01:24:42,160 --> 01:24:45,040
Speaker 2: get paid, You then get another idea, you do it.

1516
01:24:45,640 --> 01:24:48,200
Speaker 2: And so I wanted to try to do something bigger.

1517
01:24:48,240 --> 01:24:50,200
Speaker 1: So I moved Never like at that time, you were

1518
01:24:50,280 --> 01:24:53,160
Speaker 1: focused pretty much. I mean you were focused on humor pieces.

1519
01:24:53,439 --> 01:24:55,560
Speaker 2: I wrote a lot of humor pieces back then, and

1520
01:24:56,120 --> 01:24:58,479
Speaker 2: also I wrote for the Talk of the Town of

1521
01:24:58,560 --> 01:25:01,959
Speaker 2: the New Yorker, and I had done a few long pieces.

1522
01:25:03,160 --> 01:25:05,360
Speaker 2: I did a profile of a guy who had a

1523
01:25:05,439 --> 01:25:08,960
Speaker 2: tackle shop in New York City, and that guy was

1524
01:25:09,280 --> 01:25:15,160
Speaker 2: an old time colleague of Dan Bailey of you know Missoid.

1525
01:25:14,640 --> 01:25:18,280
Speaker 1: Bailey's Dan Bailey is that living Ston or Missoula?

1526
01:25:18,439 --> 01:25:22,720
Speaker 2: That's Livingstone, right, Okay? Yeah, And and so that guy

1527
01:25:23,080 --> 01:25:24,920
Speaker 2: was coming out here a lot, The guy that had

1528
01:25:24,960 --> 01:25:27,400
Speaker 2: that tackle shop would come out here and fish. And

1529
01:25:27,640 --> 01:25:29,559
Speaker 2: so he had told me a bunch of stuff about

1530
01:25:29,560 --> 01:25:31,560
Speaker 2: places to go. So I just came out here. The

1531
01:25:31,680 --> 01:25:36,559
Speaker 2: reason I went up to Big Fok, I'm not even sure.

1532
01:25:36,560 --> 01:25:38,200
Speaker 2: I kind of just liked it up there, and it

1533
01:25:38,280 --> 01:25:40,040
Speaker 2: seemed like there were too many writers down.

1534
01:25:40,400 --> 01:25:43,120
Speaker 3: Did people think you were doing a living was filled up?

1535
01:25:43,200 --> 01:25:45,320
Speaker 1: Did you did people think you were doing a bad

1536
01:25:45,840 --> 01:25:48,800
Speaker 1: like a career mistake to leave the city?

1537
01:25:49,160 --> 01:25:52,840
Speaker 2: Mystified people, mystified people. The editor of the New Yorker,

1538
01:25:53,360 --> 01:25:57,920
Speaker 2: William Shawn, was this genius editor, and he was this phobic,

1539
01:25:58,120 --> 01:25:59,960
Speaker 2: you know, he was afraid of a lot of different things.

1540
01:26:00,800 --> 01:26:03,719
Speaker 2: And I told him I was moving to Northwest Montana,

1541
01:26:04,160 --> 01:26:10,880
Speaker 2: and he said, uh, do they have stores there? And

1542
01:26:11,080 --> 01:26:13,560
Speaker 2: I said something like, well, it might be kind of

1543
01:26:13,640 --> 01:26:16,880
Speaker 2: hard to buy, specially items for me. I and and

1544
01:26:17,200 --> 01:26:19,760
Speaker 2: I realized he meant, can you get food there?

1545
01:26:19,880 --> 01:26:21,000
Speaker 1: I mean it was this.

1546
01:26:22,000 --> 01:26:24,320
Speaker 2: He was from Chicago. He should have known a little bit,

1547
01:26:24,400 --> 01:26:28,560
Speaker 2: but it was seen as an eccentric thing to do.

1548
01:26:29,160 --> 01:26:31,160
Speaker 2: And I came out and I tried to write a novel,

1549
01:26:31,360 --> 01:26:35,799
Speaker 2: and uh uh it was not a good novel.

1550
01:26:36,640 --> 01:26:39,320
Speaker 1: And then when I when, then, do you care sharing

1551
01:26:39,360 --> 01:26:43,120
Speaker 1: with novels about the novel? I wrote a good bit

1552
01:26:43,200 --> 01:26:43,360
Speaker 1: of it.

1553
01:26:43,840 --> 01:26:48,000
Speaker 2: The novel was about my town in Ohio and when

1554
01:26:48,280 --> 01:26:51,840
Speaker 2: the town, which is a suburban, mostly white town, and

1555
01:26:51,920 --> 01:26:55,080
Speaker 2: when the town decided to have or when the school

1556
01:26:55,720 --> 01:26:58,240
Speaker 2: that I went to, which was a private school, decided

1557
01:26:58,439 --> 01:27:01,799
Speaker 2: to expand its student body and bring in black students

1558
01:27:01,840 --> 01:27:06,040
Speaker 2: from Cleveland, and that kind of cultural moment, which was interesting,

1559
01:27:06,200 --> 01:27:13,280
Speaker 2: and uh, you know, it was very revealing of what

1560
01:27:13,600 --> 01:27:15,840
Speaker 2: my town was like. You know, you don't even know

1561
01:27:16,080 --> 01:27:19,760
Speaker 2: that you're in a mono culture, you know, when you're

1562
01:27:19,800 --> 01:27:23,360
Speaker 2: in some small towns in the Midwest. I mean, ah,

1563
01:27:24,360 --> 01:27:27,280
Speaker 2: most small towns. But anyway, it was about that, and

1564
01:27:27,400 --> 01:27:30,800
Speaker 2: it just did the I don't have the fiction gift,

1565
01:27:30,880 --> 01:27:31,400
Speaker 2: I'm afraid.

1566
01:27:31,520 --> 01:27:34,439
Speaker 1: So what is your You mentioned Big Four because there

1567
01:27:34,439 --> 01:27:36,920
Speaker 1: weren't what you've mentioned A lot of places like you're

1568
01:27:37,120 --> 01:27:39,320
Speaker 1: you don't like to live by writers. I like to

1569
01:27:39,439 --> 01:27:41,720
Speaker 1: just one time wrote off to me. You dismissed the

1570
01:27:41,760 --> 01:27:46,719
Speaker 1: whole state of Maine, which I take ship for today

1571
01:27:46,840 --> 01:27:48,800
Speaker 1: because it was a foolish thing to do. I know

1572
01:27:48,960 --> 01:27:51,439
Speaker 1: you were you were like, I can't go to Maine.

1573
01:27:52,360 --> 01:27:53,479
Speaker 1: I know writers there.

1574
01:27:53,840 --> 01:27:55,960
Speaker 3: I'm going to ask you if you if you brush

1575
01:27:56,000 --> 01:28:00,320
Speaker 3: shoulders with any montete like mcguaine. I never I never

1576
01:28:00,400 --> 01:28:01,960
Speaker 3: did because you didn't want to be around them.

1577
01:28:02,040 --> 01:28:05,600
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I will go public on record that

1578
01:28:05,720 --> 01:28:09,760
Speaker 2: I admired Tom mcguain beyond anything. I mean, I find

1579
01:28:09,880 --> 01:28:14,400
Speaker 2: so many things that I'm thinking are things that mcgwaine wrote,

1580
01:28:14,640 --> 01:28:16,120
Speaker 2: or just ways of putting things.

1581
01:28:16,520 --> 01:28:17,760
Speaker 1: And I know all his work.

1582
01:28:17,840 --> 01:28:21,240
Speaker 2: And I used to be able to recite Rancho Deluxe,

1583
01:28:22,240 --> 01:28:23,920
Speaker 2: like word for word. I would go into a bar

1584
01:28:24,040 --> 01:28:27,400
Speaker 2: and say I could tell you the entire movie Rancho Deluxe,

1585
01:28:27,680 --> 01:28:31,080
Speaker 2: and people would bet me that I couldn't, and they

1586
01:28:31,160 --> 01:28:34,240
Speaker 2: would give up after about maybe seven minutes.

1587
01:28:34,400 --> 01:28:36,000
Speaker 4: You're like, I need seventy nine minutes.

1588
01:28:37,280 --> 01:28:40,000
Speaker 1: You know. We we went and we didn't really use

1589
01:28:40,040 --> 01:28:43,120
Speaker 1: it for anything, but we went and set up that

1590
01:28:43,360 --> 01:28:47,519
Speaker 1: exact at Chico Hotsprings. Oh yeah, that's we wouldn't set

1591
01:28:47,640 --> 01:28:50,120
Speaker 1: up that exact scene one day, like everybody's sitting in

1592
01:28:50,200 --> 01:28:54,439
Speaker 1: the place cowboy hats. We had fur hats on. But yeah, yeah.

1593
01:28:54,680 --> 01:28:57,320
Speaker 2: But but so, you know, I kind of felt that

1594
01:28:57,479 --> 01:29:02,719
Speaker 2: that that part of my Tanna was already pretty pretty crowded.

1595
01:29:02,760 --> 01:29:05,040
Speaker 2: And I didn't know much about Big Fork. I didn't

1596
01:29:05,040 --> 01:29:07,599
Speaker 2: know anything about it, and uh, well.

1597
01:29:07,479 --> 01:29:11,599
Speaker 4: That is Edward Abbey wrote, Out of the North Fork

1598
01:29:11,640 --> 01:29:13,360
Speaker 4: there spitting distance from Big Fork.

1599
01:29:14,880 --> 01:29:16,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, that I didn't know about it.

1600
01:29:16,560 --> 01:29:20,200
Speaker 1: That's gone. Well. The thing is, if you know where

1601
01:29:20,240 --> 01:29:22,679
Speaker 1: every writer has been, you'll end up going nowhere because

1602
01:29:23,160 --> 01:29:25,800
Speaker 1: exactly exactly, but they do get around.

1603
01:29:26,320 --> 01:29:29,720
Speaker 2: But then when that novel kind of didn't work out

1604
01:29:29,800 --> 01:29:35,120
Speaker 2: in a big way, uh, I called up, uh, mister Seawan,

1605
01:29:35,479 --> 01:29:39,720
Speaker 2: the New York editor, and I said, because I had

1606
01:29:39,800 --> 01:29:43,080
Speaker 2: driven around out there just for fun. Yeah, I would

1607
01:29:43,120 --> 01:29:44,760
Speaker 2: just go over the divide and go out and just

1608
01:29:45,400 --> 01:29:48,320
Speaker 2: drive all the way like to Williston or you know,

1609
01:29:49,120 --> 01:29:52,560
Speaker 2: uh a lot in Montana. And I had taken my

1610
01:29:52,640 --> 01:29:55,920
Speaker 2: friend Jamaicican Caid out there and that was really fun

1611
01:29:56,040 --> 01:29:59,479
Speaker 2: because she's West Indian and had never really seen the

1612
01:29:59,520 --> 01:30:02,560
Speaker 2: American West. And we would go into places and you know,

1613
01:30:02,680 --> 01:30:05,840
Speaker 2: she's taller than I am, and I'm not that tall,

1614
01:30:05,920 --> 01:30:08,400
Speaker 2: but she's like an inch or so taller and.

1615
01:30:09,040 --> 01:30:12,080
Speaker 1: And people would just wow, you know, because that was.

1616
01:30:12,200 --> 01:30:14,720
Speaker 2: Uncommon then to see like a black woman in a

1617
01:30:15,360 --> 01:30:20,640
Speaker 2: in like cutback Montana, you know. And so why had

1618
01:30:20,680 --> 01:30:23,320
Speaker 2: had a lot of interesting things, you know, driving around,

1619
01:30:24,040 --> 01:30:26,600
Speaker 2: And I told when this novel didn't work out, I

1620
01:30:26,680 --> 01:30:29,519
Speaker 2: decided I would do a book about the great planes

1621
01:30:29,560 --> 01:30:32,640
Speaker 2: and I called up mister Shawn, and I said, I

1622
01:30:32,760 --> 01:30:34,599
Speaker 2: want to write about the great Planes, and I would

1623
01:30:34,680 --> 01:30:40,120
Speaker 2: do it as if I was profiling a person, you know,

1624
01:30:40,640 --> 01:30:42,920
Speaker 2: like this is a place, but I would profile it

1625
01:30:43,080 --> 01:30:46,160
Speaker 2: as a person. And I said, and I explained some

1626
01:30:46,280 --> 01:30:47,640
Speaker 2: of the stuff that would be in it, you know,

1627
01:30:47,840 --> 01:30:52,240
Speaker 2: and like the buffalo or you know, the battle of

1628
01:30:52,280 --> 01:30:54,920
Speaker 2: the Little Big Horn or stuff like that. And Sean listened.

1629
01:30:54,960 --> 01:30:58,000
Speaker 2: He didn't say anything. And then when I had finished

1630
01:30:58,040 --> 01:31:00,799
Speaker 2: my explanation, he said, what is be funny?

1631
01:31:05,080 --> 01:31:05,920
Speaker 1: Well, I don't know.

1632
01:31:07,360 --> 01:31:11,240
Speaker 2: Maybe fifty million buffalo wiped out. I don't know, is

1633
01:31:11,320 --> 01:31:14,320
Speaker 2: that funny? But so then I ended up doing it,

1634
01:31:14,400 --> 01:31:16,360
Speaker 2: But that took me a long time. It took me

1635
01:31:16,640 --> 01:31:18,439
Speaker 2: years and years to do, did it?

1636
01:31:18,760 --> 01:31:19,000
Speaker 1: Yeah?

1637
01:31:19,120 --> 01:31:22,320
Speaker 2: I drove around out there for summer summers. After summers,

1638
01:31:23,400 --> 01:31:25,599
Speaker 2: I got married out there. I wouldn't have stayed if

1639
01:31:25,640 --> 01:31:26,439
Speaker 2: I hadn't gotten married.

1640
01:31:26,560 --> 01:31:28,439
Speaker 3: Did you fish flat Head Lake while you're living in

1641
01:31:28,479 --> 01:31:28,960
Speaker 3: Big Port?

1642
01:31:29,240 --> 01:31:29,960
Speaker 1: Yeah? I did.

1643
01:31:30,520 --> 01:31:31,320
Speaker 2: It was cocainy.

1644
01:31:31,479 --> 01:31:34,680
Speaker 1: I didn't do very good. Have you fished it? Oh?

1645
01:31:34,800 --> 01:31:34,960
Speaker 7: Yeah?

1646
01:31:35,040 --> 01:31:36,320
Speaker 3: The cocaine are all gone now.

1647
01:31:36,400 --> 01:31:36,559
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1648
01:31:36,720 --> 01:31:40,960
Speaker 3: They're trying to eradicate the lake trout now too.

1649
01:31:41,360 --> 01:31:41,559
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1650
01:31:41,840 --> 01:31:43,920
Speaker 2: What are they What are you fishing for up there?

1651
01:31:44,040 --> 01:31:46,800
Speaker 4: Then lake trout are trying to.

1652
01:31:46,840 --> 01:31:50,519
Speaker 3: Eradicate because there's a native species of char called the

1653
01:31:50,640 --> 01:31:55,479
Speaker 3: bull trout. Oh wow, they're trying. They're trying to lower

1654
01:31:55,560 --> 01:31:59,040
Speaker 3: the lake trout population and bring bring the bull trout back.

1655
01:31:59,160 --> 01:32:02,880
Speaker 4: And the cocony story up there, Like when you were there,

1656
01:32:03,000 --> 01:32:07,640
Speaker 4: that was a huge tourism story too. They'd spawn all

1657
01:32:07,680 --> 01:32:10,320
Speaker 4: the way up to McDonald Lake and then all the

1658
01:32:11,640 --> 01:32:14,120
Speaker 4: you know, all the all the pretty animals would come in.

1659
01:32:14,520 --> 01:32:17,120
Speaker 4: It was a great time for tourists. And the bull

1660
01:32:17,160 --> 01:32:20,920
Speaker 4: trout would get real fat off coconey too. And then

1661
01:32:21,320 --> 01:32:27,439
Speaker 4: there was a theory that because of the the water

1662
01:32:27,600 --> 01:32:30,400
Speaker 4: part of the water column that the coconey occupied and

1663
01:32:30,479 --> 01:32:33,280
Speaker 4: the part of the water column that lake trout if

1664
01:32:33,280 --> 01:32:35,120
Speaker 4: they introduced them would occupy.

1665
01:32:34,800 --> 01:32:36,160
Speaker 1: Well, keep back. I got confused.

1666
01:32:37,280 --> 01:32:40,400
Speaker 4: This is a fisheries management introduction.

1667
01:32:41,479 --> 01:32:43,600
Speaker 1: All this was baked into the inn like it was

1668
01:32:43,600 --> 01:32:46,800
Speaker 1: an intentional introduction. Yes, based on this assumption.

1669
01:32:46,760 --> 01:32:49,040
Speaker 4: Yes, I see. And then you have these miicy shrimp

1670
01:32:49,400 --> 01:32:52,120
Speaker 4: that feed everything, and how they would come up with

1671
01:32:52,240 --> 01:32:56,120
Speaker 4: the warmth of the day that all these species would

1672
01:32:56,160 --> 01:32:57,720
Speaker 4: just magically like intermingle.

1673
01:32:57,840 --> 01:33:01,080
Speaker 1: It was a choreographed dance exactly exactly like I said,

1674
01:33:01,120 --> 01:33:03,040
Speaker 1: but no one was going to the dance.

1675
01:33:06,080 --> 01:33:09,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's just a fun aside for you. But anyway,

1676
01:33:09,320 --> 01:33:10,639
Speaker 4: no more coconin and flathead.

1677
01:33:11,320 --> 01:33:13,040
Speaker 2: Well that was something where people would come up and

1678
01:33:13,040 --> 01:33:16,800
Speaker 2: they'd bring their own like canneries. You know, they'd have

1679
01:33:17,880 --> 01:33:20,320
Speaker 2: motor homes and they can you know, it was like

1680
01:33:20,439 --> 01:33:25,280
Speaker 2: a unit of exchange among people, like cans of cocainey salmon,

1681
01:33:25,960 --> 01:33:28,320
Speaker 2: and I mean it was a huge deal. But I

1682
01:33:28,680 --> 01:33:30,439
Speaker 2: didn't know that they were no longer in the lake.

1683
01:33:30,520 --> 01:33:33,880
Speaker 2: That's amazing, ye. And that up there where they would

1684
01:33:33,960 --> 01:33:37,800
Speaker 2: spawn the eagles that were up there, and it was

1685
01:33:38,720 --> 01:33:41,560
Speaker 2: just amazing birds, I mean snowy owls and stuff. It

1686
01:33:41,720 --> 01:33:44,680
Speaker 2: was really incredible. I didn't see a snowy owl up there.

1687
01:33:44,840 --> 01:33:47,960
Speaker 1: But tell folks about your the piece you wrote about

1688
01:33:47,960 --> 01:33:50,759
Speaker 1: wild hogs. Yeah, I really.

1689
01:33:50,760 --> 01:33:54,840
Speaker 2: Enjoyed watching your wild hog episode. Yeah, I just I

1690
01:33:54,960 --> 01:34:01,519
Speaker 2: did a piece about wild hogs because, uh, they really

1691
01:34:01,640 --> 01:34:05,120
Speaker 2: are like there's no other animal really like them. You

1692
01:34:05,240 --> 01:34:08,240
Speaker 2: know that every man's hand is against them, like their

1693
01:34:08,280 --> 01:34:11,000
Speaker 2: places with no seasons, I think almost every place you

1694
01:34:11,040 --> 01:34:12,120
Speaker 2: can hunt them all year round.

1695
01:34:13,160 --> 01:34:15,960
Speaker 1: Here's an interesting twist that this might have happened after

1696
01:34:16,040 --> 01:34:18,439
Speaker 1: you wrote your piece about wild hogs. Is there an

1697
01:34:18,479 --> 01:34:22,759
Speaker 1: interesting twists now where in order to prevent the spread

1698
01:34:22,800 --> 01:34:29,200
Speaker 1: of wild hogs, they are banning the hunting of wild hogs.

1699
01:34:30,280 --> 01:34:32,160
Speaker 1: And one might be like, well, it doesn't make any sense,

1700
01:34:33,360 --> 01:34:36,400
Speaker 1: But what they have found is the spread of wild

1701
01:34:36,520 --> 01:34:41,040
Speaker 1: hogs and a lot of places is facilitated by hog

1702
01:34:41,240 --> 01:34:45,000
Speaker 1: hunters who bring hogs in. You're saying, because they're like, man,

1703
01:34:45,080 --> 01:34:47,519
Speaker 1: we had such a good time hunting hogs down in

1704
01:34:47,640 --> 01:34:50,760
Speaker 1: Texas that we brought a few home, right, and we're

1705
01:34:50,800 --> 01:34:53,120
Speaker 1: gonna cut them loose in our neck of the woods

1706
01:34:53,120 --> 01:34:57,480
Speaker 1: and then we'll be able to hunt hogs. And so Missouri, Arkansas,

1707
01:34:57,800 --> 01:35:00,240
Speaker 1: other areas when they look at the spread, they were

1708
01:35:00,280 --> 01:35:04,880
Speaker 1: looking and they're like, man, a leading spread vector is

1709
01:35:04,920 --> 01:35:08,760
Speaker 1: aspiring hog hunters. Yeah. Yeah, so to make it that

1710
01:35:08,880 --> 01:35:11,519
Speaker 1: you can't hunt hogs, just to get out ahead of it.

1711
01:35:13,600 --> 01:35:18,559
Speaker 1: But yeah, there is no from the hunting world, any

1712
01:35:18,800 --> 01:35:24,960
Speaker 1: conversation about humane treatment, any conversation about ethics, anything like that.

1713
01:35:26,560 --> 01:35:29,200
Speaker 1: It goes out the window. Hogs r yeah, because they're

1714
01:35:30,360 --> 01:35:33,720
Speaker 1: they're just a reviled right, I mean, you get into

1715
01:35:33,720 --> 01:35:37,439
Speaker 1: it they're reviled and a hated critter man.

1716
01:35:38,320 --> 01:35:41,759
Speaker 2: But I think you know that makes the there's something

1717
01:35:44,600 --> 01:35:48,200
Speaker 2: kind of holy about that, you know, like that you're

1718
01:35:48,320 --> 01:35:53,040
Speaker 2: just a total outlaw, you know. I mean, And and

1719
01:35:53,160 --> 01:35:56,520
Speaker 2: when you see the stuff they do, it's just incredible.

1720
01:35:57,120 --> 01:35:59,080
Speaker 2: Like the way they will root or the way they

1721
01:35:59,120 --> 01:36:04,680
Speaker 2: will they get up next to phone poles that have

1722
01:36:04,800 --> 01:36:07,439
Speaker 2: been painted with creoso and they want to get that

1723
01:36:07,600 --> 01:36:10,720
Speaker 2: creoso tar all over them, you know. And then you'll

1724
01:36:10,760 --> 01:36:13,519
Speaker 2: see these things. They're just all tari and God.

1725
01:36:13,680 --> 01:36:16,680
Speaker 1: I mean, they'll there's just.

1726
01:36:18,960 --> 01:36:22,360
Speaker 2: The damage that they do. The you know, you'll find

1727
01:36:22,400 --> 01:36:25,160
Speaker 2: these little items about how they tear up, the way

1728
01:36:25,200 --> 01:36:27,360
Speaker 2: they tear up people's yards, and the way they tear

1729
01:36:27,439 --> 01:36:31,439
Speaker 2: up you know, peanut fields, and it's just and the

1730
01:36:31,560 --> 01:36:35,960
Speaker 2: only thing that's limiting them. I mean, we don't I think,

1731
01:36:36,120 --> 01:36:38,920
Speaker 2: have them in New York State yet, or I don't

1732
01:36:38,920 --> 01:36:42,000
Speaker 2: think we have them in New Jersey. But there's not

1733
01:36:42,160 --> 01:36:45,240
Speaker 2: much that limits them. I mean, they can go anywhere

1734
01:36:45,439 --> 01:36:47,280
Speaker 2: pretty much if there's got to be water.

1735
01:36:48,000 --> 01:36:50,679
Speaker 1: I think, according to the USDA, is at thirty four states.

1736
01:36:50,680 --> 01:36:53,280
Speaker 1: According to the USDA, I think I think it was

1737
01:36:53,360 --> 01:36:55,760
Speaker 1: thirty nine when I did it. It was thirty four,

1738
01:36:55,840 --> 01:36:57,639
Speaker 1: and I think it went up since then.

1739
01:36:57,800 --> 01:37:03,000
Speaker 4: But I was working with the farmer in Arkansas earlier

1740
01:37:03,080 --> 01:37:07,360
Speaker 4: this year and they started with traps on their farm

1741
01:37:07,880 --> 01:37:10,760
Speaker 4: that would just be triggered by the pigs walking in,

1742
01:37:11,640 --> 01:37:15,200
Speaker 4: and they kind of came to the conclusion that this

1743
01:37:15,360 --> 01:37:19,280
Speaker 4: wasn't working well enough because they'd also have cameras set

1744
01:37:19,360 --> 01:37:22,400
Speaker 4: up around the the traps and they'd see like one

1745
01:37:22,479 --> 01:37:25,639
Speaker 4: pigould get caught and the fifteen others would squeal around

1746
01:37:25,680 --> 01:37:31,479
Speaker 4: the thing and run away. So they custom built some

1747
01:37:31,760 --> 01:37:36,960
Speaker 4: remotely operated traps, so now a pig can't set it

1748
01:37:37,040 --> 01:37:41,400
Speaker 4: off by itself, but the camera goes on and you

1749
01:37:41,479 --> 01:37:43,800
Speaker 4: can remotely trigger the trap. He told me they did

1750
01:37:43,880 --> 01:37:46,800
Speaker 4: a family trip to the Bahamas one time and he

1751
01:37:47,000 --> 01:37:49,519
Speaker 4: caught twenty pigs in a trap.

1752
01:37:50,040 --> 01:37:50,240
Speaker 1: Wow.

1753
01:37:50,280 --> 01:37:50,960
Speaker 7: So the.

1754
01:37:52,640 --> 01:37:54,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, the goal now is to get the whole sounder

1755
01:37:55,000 --> 01:37:59,960
Speaker 4: of pigs in then remotely operate the trap. And they're

1756
01:38:00,360 --> 01:38:05,560
Speaker 4: they're catching tons of pigs throughout the year. But it

1757
01:38:05,920 --> 01:38:09,840
Speaker 4: is zero fun, there is no It is just more

1758
01:38:09,960 --> 01:38:15,280
Speaker 4: work for this family and it takes like three four

1759
01:38:15,360 --> 01:38:19,719
Speaker 4: hours to go in, dispatch all the pigs, remove the pigs,

1760
01:38:19,880 --> 01:38:23,360
Speaker 4: clean everything up, and and it ends up just all

1761
01:38:23,479 --> 01:38:27,080
Speaker 4: being gator food in the in the bayou, which is

1762
01:38:27,160 --> 01:38:30,360
Speaker 4: a horrible way to meet that they recognize. But at

1763
01:38:30,360 --> 01:38:34,120
Speaker 4: the same time they're like, and tomorrow or next week,

1764
01:38:34,240 --> 01:38:37,040
Speaker 4: we'll do it all over again. It just doesn't stop.

1765
01:38:37,200 --> 01:38:41,160
Speaker 4: But they're estimating their crop damage somewhere in the neighborhood

1766
01:38:41,160 --> 01:38:42,759
Speaker 4: of three hundred thousand dollars annually.

1767
01:38:42,760 --> 01:38:44,880
Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah. Yeah.

1768
01:38:45,120 --> 01:38:47,719
Speaker 4: And it's just he's like, there's a lot of people

1769
01:38:47,840 --> 01:38:52,960
Speaker 4: who recreationally hunt pigs, like and because of that, we're

1770
01:38:53,080 --> 01:38:55,800
Speaker 4: doing this like it and it does there's no end

1771
01:38:55,880 --> 01:38:56,160
Speaker 4: in sight.

1772
01:38:56,479 --> 01:38:56,719
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1773
01:38:56,840 --> 01:38:58,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a wild thing.

1774
01:39:00,080 --> 01:39:00,240
Speaker 7: Yeah.

1775
01:39:00,240 --> 01:39:04,240
Speaker 2: I talked to a guy from a organization that studies

1776
01:39:05,240 --> 01:39:10,559
Speaker 2: wildlife disease vectors and he traps hogs and tests them,

1777
01:39:11,080 --> 01:39:13,120
Speaker 2: and he said that he if he had hogs in

1778
01:39:13,160 --> 01:39:16,640
Speaker 2: an enclosure, he said that, he said he was very

1779
01:39:16,680 --> 01:39:20,960
Speaker 2: careful never to look over the enclosure down at the hogs.

1780
01:39:21,360 --> 01:39:23,120
Speaker 2: And I said, why why don't you want to look

1781
01:39:23,160 --> 01:39:25,080
Speaker 2: over And he said, because they'll jump up and bite

1782
01:39:25,120 --> 01:39:32,759
Speaker 2: you in the face. So these are pretty fierce, fierce animals.

1783
01:39:32,840 --> 01:39:35,040
Speaker 2: I mean, they're just they're so smart too, they're just

1784
01:39:35,200 --> 01:39:39,960
Speaker 2: and they're so they're just so cynical. They have a

1785
01:39:40,080 --> 01:39:44,080
Speaker 2: very cynical attitude. I think I saw a contest down

1786
01:39:44,160 --> 01:39:48,439
Speaker 2: in Georgia where they were using hog you know, dogs

1787
01:39:48,479 --> 01:39:50,640
Speaker 2: that ran pigs, and it was it was like a

1788
01:39:50,760 --> 01:39:54,120
Speaker 2: rodeo where they had these to see which pigs could

1789
01:39:54,640 --> 01:39:57,200
Speaker 2: dogs could beay a hog the fastest and stuff like that.

1790
01:39:57,439 --> 01:39:59,880
Speaker 2: And the dogs are all wearing kevlar and you know,

1791
01:40:00,560 --> 01:40:03,200
Speaker 2: and they had these big pins of wild pigs that

1792
01:40:03,320 --> 01:40:06,800
Speaker 2: they had caught for this event, and the wild pigs

1793
01:40:06,800 --> 01:40:08,439
Speaker 2: are just lying back in They're just like.

1794
01:40:08,600 --> 01:40:12,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, they were just it was not too bothered by

1795
01:40:12,960 --> 01:40:13,439
Speaker 3: the process.

1796
01:40:13,680 --> 01:40:16,400
Speaker 2: This is going to happen, so what something else will happen.

1797
01:40:16,800 --> 01:40:20,080
Speaker 2: They just they had their eyelids are always at half mass.

1798
01:40:20,160 --> 01:40:22,800
Speaker 2: You know, They're just like, yeah, okay, I mean this

1799
01:40:22,960 --> 01:40:27,080
Speaker 2: is going to happen to me. They didn't like, they

1800
01:40:27,240 --> 01:40:28,040
Speaker 2: just weren't.

1801
01:40:27,840 --> 01:40:28,599
Speaker 1: Involved at all.

1802
01:40:28,720 --> 01:40:30,360
Speaker 2: They were ready to go along.

1803
01:40:30,680 --> 01:40:34,200
Speaker 1: And all the time the dogs was the dogs were

1804
01:40:34,320 --> 01:40:46,679
Speaker 1: just like mannic on speed. That hog piece. I don't

1805
01:40:46,680 --> 01:40:49,200
Speaker 1: know if you remember the details on it, but in

1806
01:40:49,280 --> 01:40:51,920
Speaker 1: the end of the hog piece, you gotten looking at

1807
01:40:53,800 --> 01:40:55,280
Speaker 1: hog distribution maps.

1808
01:40:55,400 --> 01:40:57,280
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I got in trouble for that A little bit,

1809
01:40:57,439 --> 01:40:59,560
Speaker 2: did you. Well, I mean it really pissed off the

1810
01:40:59,600 --> 01:41:02,400
Speaker 2: people that I had reported done the reporting with.

1811
01:41:02,840 --> 01:41:04,760
Speaker 1: You got to look in at hog well, let's keep

1812
01:41:04,800 --> 01:41:07,400
Speaker 1: this a political as possible, Okay, You got to look

1813
01:41:07,439 --> 01:41:09,720
Speaker 1: in at hog distribution maps, and you got to looking

1814
01:41:09,760 --> 01:41:13,040
Speaker 1: at voting maps. Right. I matched the two, and you

1815
01:41:13,240 --> 01:41:17,240
Speaker 1: find you overlaid them and found that you can map

1816
01:41:18,320 --> 01:41:22,720
Speaker 1: partisan politics in the American South and other places all

1817
01:41:22,800 --> 01:41:25,840
Speaker 1: over the country based on even in the areas of California,

1818
01:41:26,000 --> 01:41:29,960
Speaker 1: and you can look at hog density and know where

1819
01:41:30,000 --> 01:41:31,559
Speaker 1: they're going to tip on a presidential election.

1820
01:41:33,120 --> 01:41:36,000
Speaker 2: If a county has hogs, it is a rip county.

1821
01:41:37,800 --> 01:41:38,679
Speaker 1: That got you in trouble.

1822
01:41:38,880 --> 01:41:41,160
Speaker 2: Well, the guy, the hog expert, who I worked with,

1823
01:41:41,280 --> 01:41:43,439
Speaker 2: I think didn't didn't like the article. And he was

1824
01:41:43,479 --> 01:41:47,640
Speaker 2: a unbelievable guy. He was a really good scientist and

1825
01:41:47,880 --> 01:41:51,360
Speaker 2: able to like, you know, if a hog was bade up,

1826
01:41:51,400 --> 01:41:53,679
Speaker 2: he could throw the hog. He'd get behind the hog

1827
01:41:53,760 --> 01:41:55,920
Speaker 2: and like pull its legs out from under it and

1828
01:41:57,640 --> 01:42:00,400
Speaker 2: put it on the ground, you know, just like himself.

1829
01:42:00,800 --> 01:42:01,559
Speaker 1: Going out a hog.

1830
01:42:01,720 --> 01:42:04,400
Speaker 2: I mean that seems some of these hogs are really big.

1831
01:42:04,640 --> 01:42:06,559
Speaker 2: And that was back in the days of hog Zilla.

1832
01:42:07,960 --> 01:42:08,960
Speaker 1: It wasn't a wild hog.

1833
01:42:09,240 --> 01:42:11,760
Speaker 2: It was a tame He was a farm raised hog.

1834
01:42:12,160 --> 01:42:15,040
Speaker 2: And hog Zelda, which was a soal.

1835
01:42:16,920 --> 01:42:19,120
Speaker 1: In terms of writing about people who get mad at you,

1836
01:42:20,439 --> 01:42:21,880
Speaker 1: do you want to know the advice you gave.

1837
01:42:21,800 --> 01:42:25,040
Speaker 2: Me, God, Steve, I don't remember this, Okay.

1838
01:42:27,439 --> 01:42:31,040
Speaker 1: If you include a line about how good looking they are,

1839
01:42:33,040 --> 01:42:36,599
Speaker 1: if you say someone's ruggedly handsome, yeah, you can say

1840
01:42:36,640 --> 01:42:38,280
Speaker 1: any want them bomb the never get mad at you.

1841
01:42:39,479 --> 01:42:42,160
Speaker 2: They will only get so mad. And it's really true.

1842
01:42:42,560 --> 01:42:44,520
Speaker 3: It's kind of like the compliment sandwich.

1843
01:42:44,640 --> 01:42:47,200
Speaker 1: Right. You're like, if you got to say something bad

1844
01:42:47,240 --> 01:42:49,160
Speaker 1: about someone you hung out with while you're working on

1845
01:42:49,240 --> 01:42:51,000
Speaker 1: your piece, just talk about that they're good looking. Right.

1846
01:42:51,160 --> 01:42:53,559
Speaker 1: It's like when they read it, they'll they'll they'll they'll

1847
01:42:53,600 --> 01:42:56,280
Speaker 1: come away feel better about the piece. Right, It's it's

1848
01:42:56,360 --> 01:42:56,800
Speaker 1: quite true.

1849
01:42:56,880 --> 01:42:59,000
Speaker 4: It's like pulling the hind legs out of a hog, right,

1850
01:42:59,040 --> 01:43:01,080
Speaker 4: all right, they can't. They're still got two legs on

1851
01:43:01,120 --> 01:43:03,160
Speaker 4: the ground. All right, you only got it half wrong.

1852
01:43:03,479 --> 01:43:06,560
Speaker 1: Right. There's another piece of advice you gave me, and

1853
01:43:06,600 --> 01:43:10,720
Speaker 1: I've repeated this one hundred times. In book publishing, you

1854
01:43:10,880 --> 01:43:14,960
Speaker 1: need to write a generally generally speaking, people will write

1855
01:43:14,960 --> 01:43:18,639
Speaker 1: a proposal, and they will sell this proposal protials where

1856
01:43:18,640 --> 01:43:21,400
Speaker 1: I'm going with this. They will sell this proposal to

1857
01:43:21,479 --> 01:43:25,480
Speaker 1: a publisher who will then give you an advance on royalties.

1858
01:43:25,760 --> 01:43:27,519
Speaker 1: So you write, I'm going to write a book about

1859
01:43:27,920 --> 01:43:30,040
Speaker 1: wild picks, okay, And you're like, it a look like this,

1860
01:43:30,240 --> 01:43:33,360
Speaker 1: here's my perspective outline, here's like one of the chapters

1861
01:43:33,439 --> 01:43:36,120
Speaker 1: might look like here's my whole plan. Publisher will say

1862
01:43:36,160 --> 01:43:38,960
Speaker 1: that sounds like a phenomenal idea, a great idea. We'll

1863
01:43:39,000 --> 01:43:42,400
Speaker 1: give you ex will give you ten dollars for the book.

1864
01:43:42,840 --> 01:43:46,840
Speaker 1: You will give you three. Now, we'll give you three

1865
01:43:47,000 --> 01:43:49,360
Speaker 1: after you write it, and we'll give you four on

1866
01:43:49,439 --> 01:43:52,560
Speaker 1: the day that it publishes. And then that's like a

1867
01:43:52,680 --> 01:43:55,120
Speaker 1: brief outline of how a book publishing goes. And I

1868
01:43:55,320 --> 01:43:58,160
Speaker 1: told you that I was working on a proposal the

1869
01:43:58,200 --> 01:44:01,200
Speaker 1: first proposal I wrote, and you told me to the

1870
01:44:01,240 --> 01:44:04,439
Speaker 1: effect of, man if I ever wrote a book proposal

1871
01:44:04,760 --> 01:44:06,400
Speaker 1: and they bought that book, the first thing I do

1872
01:44:06,560 --> 01:44:07,639
Speaker 1: is throw away the proposal.

1873
01:44:10,040 --> 01:44:11,320
Speaker 2: I was down on the puzzles.

1874
01:44:12,640 --> 01:44:14,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, I quote that all the time.

1875
01:44:14,840 --> 01:44:17,320
Speaker 2: Well that that you didn't follow that advice, So I

1876
01:44:17,400 --> 01:44:17,920
Speaker 2: don't think.

1877
01:44:17,800 --> 01:44:19,360
Speaker 1: All right, proposals all damn time.

1878
01:44:20,320 --> 01:44:23,160
Speaker 2: Your first book wasn't your first book, The Escoffier book

1879
01:44:23,240 --> 01:44:25,280
Speaker 2: was that the thing I wrote. Don't you kind of

1880
01:44:25,320 --> 01:44:27,280
Speaker 2: see all of this is coming from that book?

1881
01:44:27,560 --> 01:44:30,240
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, but all of everything comes from everything, man. Yeah,

1882
01:44:30,320 --> 01:44:31,840
Speaker 1: that's a that's a stopping point.

1883
01:44:31,960 --> 01:44:34,160
Speaker 2: It was a really I mean, because you're you're finding

1884
01:44:34,200 --> 01:44:36,880
Speaker 2: stuff to eat in the outdoors throughout that book.

1885
01:44:36,960 --> 01:44:37,160
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1886
01:44:37,240 --> 01:44:39,920
Speaker 2: I remember you even got pigeon eggs from like an

1887
01:44:39,960 --> 01:44:41,040
Speaker 2: air conditioning unit.

1888
01:44:41,080 --> 01:44:42,600
Speaker 1: Some We're talking about that the other night because I

1889
01:44:42,840 --> 01:44:44,479
Speaker 1: had a buddy of mine I did. I had a

1890
01:44:44,520 --> 01:44:49,240
Speaker 1: buddy mine ohere for dinner or so when I you know,

1891
01:44:49,320 --> 01:44:52,640
Speaker 1: I talk about leaving finishing school and going to the

1892
01:44:52,720 --> 01:44:55,640
Speaker 1: Great Lakes, right, and I wanted to write about the

1893
01:44:55,680 --> 01:44:58,200
Speaker 1: Great Lakes, and I kind of lost the thread of

1894
01:44:58,280 --> 01:45:01,840
Speaker 1: it and missed being out west real bad and hadn't

1895
01:45:01,840 --> 01:45:04,639
Speaker 1: even really moved out where I was living, and went

1896
01:45:04,920 --> 01:45:08,120
Speaker 1: back and that's when I got started on Scavenger's Guide

1897
01:45:08,640 --> 01:45:11,960
Speaker 1: to Oak Cuisine. Right. I was living in Missoula at

1898
01:45:12,000 --> 01:45:16,200
Speaker 1: the time. And the other night, my buddy Dave was

1899
01:45:16,280 --> 01:45:20,840
Speaker 1: over and my buddy Dave was remembering about when I

1900
01:45:21,040 --> 01:45:24,120
Speaker 1: was going to collect pigeons under the Higgins Street bridge,

1901
01:45:25,160 --> 01:45:27,720
Speaker 1: and we had gotten hollered at by some policemen down

1902
01:45:27,800 --> 01:45:33,320
Speaker 1: there for having an extension ladder under the bridge. Okay,

1903
01:45:34,320 --> 01:45:38,280
Speaker 1: so Dave was reminiscent about he had kids, and he

1904
01:45:38,439 --> 01:45:40,400
Speaker 1: was talking the other night about how he didn't want

1905
01:45:40,439 --> 01:45:42,040
Speaker 1: to go back with me because he didn't want to

1906
01:45:42,040 --> 01:45:46,719
Speaker 1: get in trouble having kids. So we're just talking about collecting,

1907
01:45:46,800 --> 01:45:49,520
Speaker 1: that's all, uh huh okay. But we developed a strategy.

1908
01:45:51,000 --> 01:45:54,160
Speaker 1: Pigeons would around that town. They liked to build nests

1909
01:45:54,560 --> 01:45:59,080
Speaker 1: between air conditioning units and buildings. Yeah, there's like a

1910
01:45:59,160 --> 01:46:01,800
Speaker 1: little the air conditioning units are set out six to

1911
01:46:01,840 --> 01:46:04,280
Speaker 1: eight inches and they like to get there. So we

1912
01:46:04,439 --> 01:46:07,920
Speaker 1: made a blocker with a pizza box and a stick,

1913
01:46:08,320 --> 01:46:11,519
Speaker 1: and we made a landing net type thing where you

1914
01:46:11,640 --> 01:46:15,000
Speaker 1: could put a blocker on one side, a landing net

1915
01:46:15,040 --> 01:46:16,920
Speaker 1: on the other side, and then bang on the air

1916
01:46:17,000 --> 01:46:20,400
Speaker 1: conditioning unit and the pigeons would go into the net

1917
01:46:21,080 --> 01:46:23,040
Speaker 1: and then we would I would keep these pigeons in

1918
01:46:23,160 --> 01:46:26,920
Speaker 1: my apartment trying to get the eggs from them. So

1919
01:46:26,960 --> 01:46:30,600
Speaker 1: I wanted to raise my own squab, which was Scofia

1920
01:46:30,720 --> 01:46:34,280
Speaker 1: has thirty four squab preparations. I think I even gave

1921
01:46:34,360 --> 01:46:35,400
Speaker 1: you the words squab.

1922
01:46:35,880 --> 01:46:38,200
Speaker 2: Might that when we went in that hunting trip in

1923
01:46:38,240 --> 01:46:40,960
Speaker 2: the Missouri breaks, Yep, And there were all those pigeons

1924
01:46:41,080 --> 01:46:43,640
Speaker 2: up there in those bluffs and we go hunting for them.

1925
01:46:43,840 --> 01:46:46,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I said that I had that I had

1926
01:46:46,120 --> 01:46:49,200
Speaker 1: eaten those. I had eaten them, and they were called squab,

1927
01:46:49,439 --> 01:46:52,280
Speaker 1: you know, baby pigeons. Yeah, which is a far cry

1928
01:46:52,360 --> 01:46:55,360
Speaker 1: from adult from an adult pigeon, from in a culinary

1929
01:46:55,720 --> 01:46:59,240
Speaker 1: from a culinary standpoint, totally different colored flesh, totally different

1930
01:46:59,240 --> 01:47:02,840
Speaker 1: eating experience. So I'd reared, you know, through a lot

1931
01:47:02,920 --> 01:47:07,680
Speaker 1: of attempts, eventually reared my own squab, which became a

1932
01:47:07,760 --> 01:47:11,320
Speaker 1: big part of that book. Did you eat him?

1933
01:47:12,160 --> 01:47:12,880
Speaker 3: Do you name him?

1934
01:47:13,720 --> 01:47:17,680
Speaker 1: Some of them? Remember having one a little red? He

1935
01:47:17,720 --> 01:47:20,400
Speaker 1: had a little red. He had a little red zip

1936
01:47:20,439 --> 01:47:23,760
Speaker 1: strip around his ankle. What are you working on now?

1937
01:47:23,800 --> 01:47:26,040
Speaker 1: What have you been working on lately? I just finished

1938
01:47:26,080 --> 01:47:29,080
Speaker 1: a book about the bronx. Oh really, yep? Is there

1939
01:47:29,080 --> 01:47:32,320
Speaker 1: any fishing in it? You also got to talk about

1940
01:47:32,320 --> 01:47:33,200
Speaker 1: your book, The Fish's Eye.

1941
01:47:34,120 --> 01:47:38,120
Speaker 2: Okay, The Fish's Eye is a book exclusively Why I.

1942
01:47:38,160 --> 01:47:39,840
Speaker 1: Read the book about the bronx, but first time about

1943
01:47:39,840 --> 01:47:40,400
Speaker 1: the Fish's Eye.

1944
01:47:40,760 --> 01:47:42,920
Speaker 2: The Fish's Eye is just a bunch of different pieces

1945
01:47:43,000 --> 01:47:47,720
Speaker 2: that I did over many years about fishing, and uh,

1946
01:47:48,360 --> 01:47:50,519
Speaker 2: some of it it's all over the place. Some of

1947
01:47:50,600 --> 01:47:53,000
Speaker 2: it is out here, some of it is in uh

1948
01:47:53,960 --> 01:47:57,960
Speaker 2: I like the Yellowstone or uh, A.

1949
01:48:00,120 --> 01:48:00,600
Speaker 1: Lot of it is.

1950
01:48:00,680 --> 01:48:02,920
Speaker 2: It's mostly fly fishing. And I'm kind of more a

1951
01:48:03,080 --> 01:48:05,920
Speaker 2: match the hatch type of person. You know, I don't

1952
01:48:06,000 --> 01:48:10,840
Speaker 2: do I haven't fished with bait in a long time. Uh,

1953
01:48:11,200 --> 01:48:13,960
Speaker 2: And I haven't And I don't really spin fish very

1954
01:48:14,040 --> 01:48:18,640
Speaker 2: much anymore. I fish for shad, but I use you know,

1955
01:48:19,120 --> 01:48:24,320
Speaker 2: weighted fly line and leaders. You know, I fly fish

1956
01:48:24,400 --> 01:48:24,800
Speaker 2: for shad.

1957
01:48:26,479 --> 01:48:29,080
Speaker 1: And so official John McPhee, he's still alive. I do.

1958
01:48:29,920 --> 01:48:30,960
Speaker 2: Yes, John's alive.

1959
01:48:32,000 --> 01:48:33,719
Speaker 1: Yes. We talked about that reason, didn't.

1960
01:48:33,479 --> 01:48:36,000
Speaker 6: We mm hmm, And I said I was sure he

1961
01:48:36,160 --> 01:48:36,519
Speaker 6: was alive.

1962
01:48:36,680 --> 01:48:40,360
Speaker 1: John is a great fisherman and he's ninety two ninety two. Well,

1963
01:48:40,400 --> 01:48:42,000
Speaker 1: you see how I thought he might not be alive.

1964
01:48:42,720 --> 01:48:44,840
Speaker 1: Remember that radio show used to have that game called

1965
01:48:44,880 --> 01:48:49,599
Speaker 1: dead or Alive, and you call you'd like a listener

1966
01:48:49,800 --> 01:48:52,680
Speaker 1: call in to play, and they'd given name and the

1967
01:48:52,760 --> 01:48:54,240
Speaker 1: only point of the game is you had to know

1968
01:48:54,320 --> 01:48:55,920
Speaker 1: if they were, you had to guess they were dead

1969
01:48:55,960 --> 01:48:59,200
Speaker 1: or alive. Listen, I'm not trying to hack on John, Okay,

1970
01:48:59,680 --> 01:49:03,800
Speaker 1: I'm as is a lot of time, that's a lot

1971
01:49:03,840 --> 01:49:05,840
Speaker 1: of years. Most people don't do that, I know. And

1972
01:49:05,920 --> 01:49:08,719
Speaker 1: he's forgets me. You could forgive me for thinking that maybe,

1973
01:49:08,840 --> 01:49:10,880
Speaker 1: like the unit ipe, I forgive you for maybe the

1974
01:49:10,960 --> 01:49:14,519
Speaker 1: inevitable overcame him. John is gonna be around for a

1975
01:49:14,600 --> 01:49:16,760
Speaker 1: long time. He is Uh.

1976
01:49:17,640 --> 01:49:20,360
Speaker 2: He outfishes. I mean he outfished me the last time

1977
01:49:20,400 --> 01:49:20,800
Speaker 2: I fished.

1978
01:49:20,960 --> 01:49:22,200
Speaker 1: Still fishes. Oh my god.

1979
01:49:22,280 --> 01:49:23,080
Speaker 2: He's a really good fish.

1980
01:49:23,280 --> 01:49:25,160
Speaker 3: Does a lot of fishing and coming into the country

1981
01:49:25,880 --> 01:49:26,519
Speaker 3: he does.

1982
01:49:26,640 --> 01:49:29,120
Speaker 2: He and then he's got the whole book about American shad.

1983
01:49:30,600 --> 01:49:33,160
Speaker 2: He is the best shad fisherman. I mean, he studied them.

1984
01:49:33,200 --> 01:49:34,320
Speaker 2: He knows everything about him.

1985
01:49:34,600 --> 01:49:39,280
Speaker 1: Was it you were John McPhee who equated cleaning an

1986
01:49:39,360 --> 01:49:43,760
Speaker 1: American shad to fixing a watch? That was him? I

1987
01:49:43,880 --> 01:49:44,160
Speaker 1: think that.

1988
01:49:45,040 --> 01:49:48,040
Speaker 2: Well, you know the thing about American shad. If you

1989
01:49:48,200 --> 01:49:51,720
Speaker 2: do not fill ay it, uh, and you're eating it

1990
01:49:52,479 --> 01:49:55,599
Speaker 2: when you're hungry, it's.

1991
01:49:55,439 --> 01:49:56,439
Speaker 1: Going to be a nightmare.

1992
01:49:56,760 --> 01:49:59,880
Speaker 2: It's very frustrating because you're taking little pieces of me

1993
01:50:00,040 --> 01:50:03,120
Speaker 2: eat out from all this complicated bone structure. It's like

1994
01:50:03,200 --> 01:50:05,599
Speaker 2: a Walleye pipe bone structure sort of. You know, they

1995
01:50:05,640 --> 01:50:09,200
Speaker 2: have two sets of risk and it's very very intricate.

1996
01:50:09,320 --> 01:50:11,599
Speaker 2: I might have said taken like taking a watch apart.

1997
01:50:11,720 --> 01:50:14,479
Speaker 2: It's very hard to take. But people that can filly

1998
01:50:14,600 --> 01:50:18,040
Speaker 2: shed are much in demand at this time of year.

1999
01:50:18,320 --> 01:50:21,360
Speaker 1: Do you fish as much Nile as you used to do? I? No,

2000
01:50:22,000 --> 01:50:23,320
Speaker 1: and that's been a problem.

2001
01:50:23,439 --> 01:50:23,880
Speaker 4: I mean.

2002
01:50:25,520 --> 01:50:27,600
Speaker 2: By way of that, I can say, you know, I

2003
01:50:27,720 --> 01:50:29,960
Speaker 2: do a lot of exploring on foot. I do a

2004
01:50:30,040 --> 01:50:35,000
Speaker 2: lot of walking and and that has kind of replaced

2005
01:50:35,120 --> 01:50:38,479
Speaker 2: in a way, it replaced fishing for me. I got

2006
01:50:38,640 --> 01:50:42,240
Speaker 2: very much into taking plastic bags out of trees, remember that,

2007
01:50:42,560 --> 01:50:47,360
Speaker 2: and I with a buddy I invented a bag snagging

2008
01:50:47,479 --> 01:50:50,519
Speaker 2: device for which we got a patent, and that.

2009
01:50:50,720 --> 01:50:51,240
Speaker 1: Was our thing.

2010
01:50:51,520 --> 01:50:53,280
Speaker 3: I need one of those because there's a couple.

2011
01:50:57,240 --> 01:51:00,000
Speaker 1: And one. I read what he wrote about plastic shopping bags,

2012
01:51:00,000 --> 01:51:03,720
Speaker 1: eggs and trees. Once you start looking, oh yeah, it's

2013
01:51:04,439 --> 01:51:07,400
Speaker 1: a new evil you need to be aware of. Is

2014
01:51:07,760 --> 01:51:11,000
Speaker 1: birthday balloons? Birthday balloon There is not a place you

2015
01:51:11,080 --> 01:51:14,479
Speaker 1: could go to the wildest likenting elk up in the mountains.

2016
01:51:14,560 --> 01:51:15,960
Speaker 3: There's one land, there's.

2017
01:51:15,760 --> 01:51:17,040
Speaker 1: No place you can go anymore.

2018
01:51:17,720 --> 01:51:19,800
Speaker 2: Well, you were talking about a birthday balloon land the

2019
01:51:19,960 --> 01:51:23,320
Speaker 2: Burmese pythons, and I went way out in all those

2020
01:51:23,360 --> 01:51:25,439
Speaker 2: places where there are no roads when I did a

2021
01:51:25,479 --> 01:51:29,639
Speaker 2: piece about Burmese pythons for Smithsonian. Yeah, and we're out there.

2022
01:51:29,720 --> 01:51:31,720
Speaker 2: There's no vehicle traffic out there.

2023
01:51:32,920 --> 01:51:33,040
Speaker 7: Uh.

2024
01:51:33,920 --> 01:51:39,200
Speaker 2: And the only trash you see out there is birthday balloons,

2025
01:51:39,400 --> 01:51:42,519
Speaker 2: nop and other types of balloons. But yeah, those are everywhere.

2026
01:51:42,840 --> 01:51:46,160
Speaker 2: But that I got very much into finding, you know, places,

2027
01:51:46,240 --> 01:51:48,080
Speaker 2: and they're all over the city. They used to be

2028
01:51:48,360 --> 01:51:51,240
Speaker 2: less so now. And going with this bag snider, we

2029
01:51:51,280 --> 01:51:53,760
Speaker 2: could reach up fairly high and take bags out and

2030
01:51:53,880 --> 01:51:57,719
Speaker 2: that was a hunter gatherer kind of thrill, especially getting

2031
01:51:57,760 --> 01:52:00,519
Speaker 2: a bag from a really high tree. We had tensions

2032
01:52:00,560 --> 01:52:01,120
Speaker 2: that we could.

2033
01:52:01,000 --> 01:52:03,160
Speaker 4: Put on the bowl trophy trophy bag.

2034
01:52:03,160 --> 01:52:03,679
Speaker 1: Oh man.

2035
01:52:03,800 --> 01:52:06,320
Speaker 2: We had once we kept stuff that we took out,

2036
01:52:09,200 --> 01:52:11,760
Speaker 2: you know, like we took a lawn chair out from

2037
01:52:12,479 --> 01:52:16,160
Speaker 2: down by. After the big floods of the Mississippi floods,

2038
01:52:16,200 --> 01:52:19,759
Speaker 2: we went to Saint Genevieve, Missouri, and there was stuff

2039
01:52:19,800 --> 01:52:22,360
Speaker 2: in trees that have floated there that didn't have to

2040
01:52:22,439 --> 01:52:25,120
Speaker 2: be carried by the wind and the stuff that floated

2041
01:52:25,200 --> 01:52:27,920
Speaker 2: and drive. There were like small rooms up in trees,

2042
01:52:28,040 --> 01:52:30,200
Speaker 2: you know, and this was because the water was so deep.

2043
01:52:31,080 --> 01:52:34,160
Speaker 2: And uh so we took you know, like tractor tires

2044
01:52:34,360 --> 01:52:40,320
Speaker 2: and all kinds of huge stuff, lots of items of clothing.

2045
01:52:41,479 --> 01:52:43,040
Speaker 2: It used to be that you took a lot of

2046
01:52:43,160 --> 01:52:46,519
Speaker 2: cassette tape out of trees, which is elaciously difficult to

2047
01:52:46,560 --> 01:52:49,320
Speaker 2: get out. And now you don't anymore because people don't

2048
01:52:49,360 --> 01:52:53,559
Speaker 2: have cassettes anymore. So in Jersey they just banned plastic

2049
01:52:53,640 --> 01:52:59,840
Speaker 2: bags right for shopping. Yeah, and that really reduces it.

2050
01:53:00,080 --> 01:53:00,240
Speaker 7: You know.

2051
01:53:00,400 --> 01:53:05,000
Speaker 2: In Ireland they they call bags and trees witches nickers,

2052
01:53:06,439 --> 01:53:09,880
Speaker 2: and after a long period of having these bags and trees,

2053
01:53:09,960 --> 01:53:12,839
Speaker 2: they outlawed them, and they don't have bags and trees anymore.

2054
01:53:12,880 --> 01:53:14,960
Speaker 2: I am told so man.

2055
01:53:15,560 --> 01:53:17,320
Speaker 1: So that's more what I got into, rather than I

2056
01:53:17,800 --> 01:53:18,439
Speaker 1: still do fish.

2057
01:53:18,520 --> 01:53:20,320
Speaker 2: I fish in the Delaware. I fish for small mouth.

2058
01:53:20,800 --> 01:53:23,800
Speaker 2: The thought of an eleven pounds small mouth is staggering.

2059
01:53:23,920 --> 01:53:26,760
Speaker 1: Six, No, eleven, that's real common.

2060
01:53:28,000 --> 01:53:30,040
Speaker 3: They got some big ones in the Susquehanna. You're not

2061
01:53:30,120 --> 01:53:30,640
Speaker 3: far from that.

2062
01:53:30,920 --> 01:53:32,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, I haven't fished the Susquehanna.

2063
01:53:32,800 --> 01:53:35,679
Speaker 1: That's good. Yeah. Wow. So did you write a proposal

2064
01:53:35,720 --> 01:53:36,519
Speaker 1: for your Bronx book?

2065
01:53:38,080 --> 01:53:38,960
Speaker 2: I explained it.

2066
01:53:41,560 --> 01:53:44,320
Speaker 1: I didn't write a proposal, but so so, like I

2067
01:53:44,400 --> 01:53:47,640
Speaker 1: want to be clear, I'm turning in an explanation of

2068
01:53:47,680 --> 01:53:49,960
Speaker 1: the book both I was.

2069
01:53:50,160 --> 01:53:52,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was down on proposals. I thought that they

2070
01:53:52,240 --> 01:53:54,920
Speaker 2: got you thinking already. Is sometimes when you read a book,

2071
01:53:54,960 --> 01:53:58,080
Speaker 2: the first page is the proposal. You know, like I

2072
01:53:58,200 --> 01:54:00,360
Speaker 2: see the guys already thinking in these terms.

2073
01:54:00,400 --> 01:54:00,840
Speaker 1: I want you to.

2074
01:54:01,000 --> 01:54:05,040
Speaker 2: I want to think more fluidly about something. But this

2075
01:54:06,040 --> 01:54:09,439
Speaker 2: the Bronx is the only part of New York City

2076
01:54:10,000 --> 01:54:15,560
Speaker 2: that is the continent. New York City is an archipelago.

2077
01:54:15,720 --> 01:54:18,760
Speaker 2: So you have Manhattan, you have Staten Island, and you

2078
01:54:18,840 --> 01:54:22,360
Speaker 2: have Long Island, which is Queens and Brooklyn, and then

2079
01:54:22,400 --> 01:54:24,439
Speaker 2: there are a lot of other islands around there. And

2080
01:54:24,720 --> 01:54:29,360
Speaker 2: the Bronx is the continent. And that's where, in fact,

2081
01:54:29,680 --> 01:54:32,800
Speaker 2: America is sort of you know, from a geographic point

2082
01:54:32,840 --> 01:54:34,520
Speaker 2: of view, that's where America begins.

2083
01:54:35,120 --> 01:54:35,600
Speaker 7: And the.

2084
01:54:37,880 --> 01:54:40,200
Speaker 2: Something in I think it was the piece you did

2085
01:54:40,240 --> 01:54:43,280
Speaker 2: about that guy who raises white or who has white

2086
01:54:43,320 --> 01:54:46,280
Speaker 2: tails on his farm in Wisconsin in the Driftless area,

2087
01:54:46,760 --> 01:54:48,560
Speaker 2: which is beautiful country.

2088
01:54:48,640 --> 01:54:50,240
Speaker 1: I need to point out he does not raise them.

2089
01:54:50,360 --> 01:54:50,560
Speaker 1: I know.

2090
01:54:50,800 --> 01:54:53,480
Speaker 2: Sorry, he doesn't raise them. I don't mean to say

2091
01:54:53,520 --> 01:54:56,520
Speaker 2: that he assists.

2092
01:54:56,640 --> 01:54:59,720
Speaker 1: He'll assists in their existence through land.

2093
01:54:59,600 --> 01:55:03,720
Speaker 2: Right, But I think it was he who said that

2094
01:55:03,880 --> 01:55:09,480
Speaker 2: he was interested in how a place affects the people

2095
01:55:09,560 --> 01:55:12,280
Speaker 2: in it, and how the people in a place affect

2096
01:55:12,360 --> 01:55:15,120
Speaker 2: the place. And to me, that's what I'm trying, what

2097
01:55:15,280 --> 01:55:17,720
Speaker 2: I have tried to do with the Bronx, that it's

2098
01:55:17,800 --> 01:55:21,600
Speaker 2: a human geography. And this was a place that was

2099
01:55:22,920 --> 01:55:28,480
Speaker 2: beat on mercilessly during the era of our country after

2100
01:55:28,520 --> 01:55:31,280
Speaker 2: World War Two, when we built highways everywhere, so they

2101
01:55:31,440 --> 01:55:35,400
Speaker 2: just flattened the Bronx with highways and tore down lots

2102
01:55:35,440 --> 01:55:39,839
Speaker 2: of neighborhoods and the Bronx kind of was reeling and burned,

2103
01:55:39,960 --> 01:55:42,680
Speaker 2: and it was famous for burning when it was, you know,

2104
01:55:42,880 --> 01:55:47,880
Speaker 2: on Howard Cosell and the it was in a World

2105
01:55:48,000 --> 01:55:51,920
Speaker 2: Series game and the Goodyear blimp had a picture of

2106
01:55:52,120 --> 01:55:54,200
Speaker 2: Yankee Stadium and then it kind of panned a little

2107
01:55:54,240 --> 01:55:56,520
Speaker 2: bit to one side and there was a burning building

2108
01:55:57,000 --> 01:55:59,320
Speaker 2: and Howard Cosell said, the Bronx is burning.

2109
01:55:59,360 --> 01:56:00,960
Speaker 1: Supposed that's what that came wrong.

2110
01:56:01,080 --> 01:56:06,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that era, you know, thousands of thousands of

2111
01:56:06,200 --> 01:56:10,280
Speaker 2: buildings burned in the Bronx and from Arson. It was

2112
01:56:10,480 --> 01:56:13,520
Speaker 2: not so much arson as that you had very old

2113
01:56:13,560 --> 01:56:17,320
Speaker 2: buildings and you had the baby boom, and you had

2114
01:56:17,360 --> 01:56:19,120
Speaker 2: a lot of kids living there, and kids were just

2115
01:56:19,200 --> 01:56:21,920
Speaker 2: beating on the buildings. You couldn't and it was redline.

2116
01:56:22,000 --> 01:56:24,920
Speaker 2: So all that place was redline. You couldn't get Red

2117
01:56:25,000 --> 01:56:27,760
Speaker 2: line means you can't get a loan to fix the building.

2118
01:56:27,960 --> 01:56:28,600
Speaker 2: You can't get a loan.

2119
01:56:29,120 --> 01:56:29,640
Speaker 1: Condemned.

2120
01:56:30,120 --> 01:56:33,920
Speaker 2: It's not exactly condemned, it's just like a warning to

2121
01:56:34,800 --> 01:56:38,240
Speaker 2: potential lenders that this is according to the government, you

2122
01:56:38,400 --> 01:56:41,280
Speaker 2: can't uh, this is a dangerous place to lend, and

2123
01:56:41,400 --> 01:56:44,520
Speaker 2: you cannot get insurance in this place. And so the

2124
01:56:44,600 --> 01:56:47,520
Speaker 2: buildings were just sitting there and they didn't get fixed up,

2125
01:56:47,600 --> 01:56:50,320
Speaker 2: and it was just a whole bunch of factors came together.

2126
01:56:51,000 --> 01:56:53,320
Speaker 2: But sort of part of the plot of my book

2127
01:56:53,480 --> 01:56:58,720
Speaker 2: is that as that happened, kids in the Bronx in

2128
01:56:58,800 --> 01:57:03,120
Speaker 2: their teens invented hip hop, and hip hop was invented

2129
01:57:03,200 --> 01:57:05,720
Speaker 2: in the Bronx, and that story of how it was

2130
01:57:05,800 --> 01:57:08,080
Speaker 2: invented and who invented it and the people who did

2131
01:57:08,120 --> 01:57:11,240
Speaker 2: it is just to me, it was just really fascinating.

2132
01:57:11,360 --> 01:57:14,320
Speaker 2: So to me, the Bronx is a place in between,

2133
01:57:14,680 --> 01:57:17,320
Speaker 2: and that the in betweenness of a place can get

2134
01:57:17,360 --> 01:57:22,840
Speaker 2: it really torn up and over overrunning away and people.

2135
01:57:22,880 --> 01:57:24,680
Speaker 2: You don't you don't pay attention to the place that

2136
01:57:24,840 --> 01:57:25,640
Speaker 2: you drive through.

2137
01:57:26,240 --> 01:57:26,400
Speaker 1: You know.

2138
01:57:27,160 --> 01:57:29,200
Speaker 2: One thing that you do is you go to that

2139
01:57:29,920 --> 01:57:31,880
Speaker 2: you on your show do is that you go to

2140
01:57:32,000 --> 01:57:35,680
Speaker 2: specific places and you see how people have made that

2141
01:57:35,880 --> 01:57:39,839
Speaker 2: place live, you know, and that each place is different,

2142
01:57:39,920 --> 01:57:42,760
Speaker 2: and that we haven't really thought in those terms. We

2143
01:57:42,880 --> 01:57:46,560
Speaker 2: thought in great, big generalities about places, and now I

2144
01:57:46,640 --> 01:57:49,440
Speaker 2: think you have to think much more specifically about what

2145
01:57:49,560 --> 01:57:51,680
Speaker 2: a place is. And the people who saved the Bronx

2146
01:57:52,000 --> 01:57:57,160
Speaker 2: were people who thought of the Bronx as this specific

2147
01:57:57,200 --> 01:57:59,400
Speaker 2: place where they grew up. They were proud to be here,

2148
01:58:00,640 --> 01:58:04,160
Speaker 2: they weren't going anywhere, and they saved the Bronx. The

2149
01:58:04,200 --> 01:58:07,280
Speaker 2: people who lived in the Bronx saved it. And so

2150
01:58:08,160 --> 01:58:10,800
Speaker 2: it's a story that I don't think a lot of

2151
01:58:10,800 --> 01:58:14,040
Speaker 2: people know. People have I write about places where people

2152
01:58:14,160 --> 01:58:17,080
Speaker 2: have a preconceived idea of what it's like, you know,

2153
01:58:17,160 --> 01:58:20,480
Speaker 2: the Great Plains. People would say from New York, Oh,

2154
01:58:20,520 --> 01:58:24,200
Speaker 2: I flew over that there's nothing there. You know, there's

2155
01:58:24,240 --> 01:58:26,600
Speaker 2: a lot there. You think there's nothing there, there's a

2156
01:58:26,720 --> 01:58:29,720
Speaker 2: lot there, you know. Or people will say, oh, Siberia,

2157
01:58:29,800 --> 01:58:32,720
Speaker 2: you know, it's cold, it's prisons. Well yeah, but there's

2158
01:58:32,760 --> 01:58:35,280
Speaker 2: a lot other there's a lot more going on there.

2159
01:58:35,760 --> 01:58:38,760
Speaker 2: And I kind of like to treat a place as

2160
01:58:38,960 --> 01:58:41,560
Speaker 2: almost as if it was a person. And you don't

2161
01:58:41,640 --> 01:58:47,640
Speaker 2: want to generalize in a stupid way about it. You know,

2162
01:58:47,760 --> 01:58:51,200
Speaker 2: you don't want to generalize about any part of you know,

2163
01:58:52,120 --> 01:58:56,960
Speaker 2: the world, because each place is different and the people

2164
01:58:57,080 --> 01:58:58,200
Speaker 2: in the places are different.

2165
01:58:58,440 --> 01:59:01,280
Speaker 1: So well, will that book come out? I hope next year?

2166
01:59:02,720 --> 01:59:06,800
Speaker 1: Is it with your normal publishers? Yeah, same publisher What

2167
01:59:06,880 --> 01:59:08,320
Speaker 1: are you gonna do next now that you finish that?

2168
01:59:09,000 --> 01:59:09,400
Speaker 1: I don't know.

2169
01:59:10,040 --> 01:59:13,240
Speaker 2: I haven't really decided. I wanted to do a book

2170
01:59:13,240 --> 01:59:18,800
Speaker 2: about steamboat explosions. See this reaction makes you think I

2171
01:59:18,840 --> 01:59:23,080
Speaker 2: should do it because they blew up all the time,

2172
01:59:23,880 --> 01:59:26,560
Speaker 2: and you can find stories of steamboats in the middle

2173
01:59:26,600 --> 01:59:29,840
Speaker 2: of Mississippi that blew up and people were ended up

2174
01:59:29,920 --> 01:59:31,320
Speaker 2: on either sides of the river.

2175
01:59:32,240 --> 01:59:34,920
Speaker 1: Oh, I mean huge explosions where people would just.

2176
01:59:35,080 --> 01:59:37,360
Speaker 2: You know, and the you know, there's a lot of

2177
01:59:37,400 --> 01:59:38,920
Speaker 2: cool stuff about steamboat.

2178
01:59:38,520 --> 01:59:39,839
Speaker 1: Explosions should write that proposal.

2179
01:59:40,680 --> 01:59:44,120
Speaker 2: I would. What I'll do is I'll say, go to

2180
01:59:45,240 --> 01:59:50,640
Speaker 2: uh Stephen Ranella's podcast and this is where it started.

2181
01:59:54,040 --> 01:59:58,520
Speaker 2: But uh yeah, I mean the problem with explosions is

2182
01:59:58,720 --> 02:00:03,040
Speaker 2: they happen, and then there's the plot kind of has

2183
02:00:03,120 --> 02:00:04,000
Speaker 2: to start up again.

2184
02:00:04,160 --> 02:00:04,320
Speaker 1: You know.

2185
02:00:04,560 --> 02:00:06,560
Speaker 2: It's a little bit tricky as a plot device.

2186
02:00:06,680 --> 02:00:10,840
Speaker 1: Explosions blew up and blue people to both sides of

2187
02:00:10,840 --> 02:00:11,120
Speaker 1: the river.

2188
02:00:11,320 --> 02:00:15,680
Speaker 2: Absolutely. There's a very funny book, unintentionally funny book that

2189
02:00:15,920 --> 02:00:18,880
Speaker 2: came out in like eighteen fifty seven called Disasters on

2190
02:00:19,000 --> 02:00:23,240
Speaker 2: the Western Rivers and it has woodcuts of steamboats blowing up,

2191
02:00:23,520 --> 02:00:26,520
Speaker 2: and it'll say, you know, the explosion of the Saint

2192
02:00:26,600 --> 02:00:30,120
Speaker 2: Mary's and then there'd be this blamd of all steamboat

2193
02:00:30,200 --> 02:00:32,200
Speaker 2: parts flying. And then you turn a page and it'll

2194
02:00:32,240 --> 02:00:35,720
Speaker 2: be like, you know, the explosion of the City of Memphis,

2195
02:00:35,760 --> 02:00:39,280
Speaker 2: and there'll be another woodcut of a steamboat blowing up.

2196
02:00:39,320 --> 02:00:40,000
Speaker 1: What's the book call.

2197
02:00:40,440 --> 02:00:44,400
Speaker 2: It's called Disasters on the Western Rivers and it came

2198
02:00:44,440 --> 02:00:46,760
Speaker 2: out in like eighteen fifty seven or something.

2199
02:00:46,760 --> 02:00:49,040
Speaker 1: If you write a book about guide's called the same thing.

2200
02:00:49,520 --> 02:00:54,160
Speaker 4: Yep, that'd be really cool that the illustrations of those

2201
02:00:54,240 --> 02:01:00,560
Speaker 4: explosions always include some person silhouetted by the flames, which

2202
02:01:00,600 --> 02:01:03,240
Speaker 4: I appreciate that it's.

2203
02:01:02,640 --> 02:01:04,000
Speaker 1: Consistent, it's really true.

2204
02:01:04,400 --> 02:01:09,560
Speaker 4: What about a bird watcher's guide to picking out trophy

2205
02:01:09,600 --> 02:01:10,440
Speaker 4: bags from trees?

2206
02:01:11,280 --> 02:01:13,400
Speaker 2: Well, I was going to do a bags in Trees book,

2207
02:01:13,440 --> 02:01:16,320
Speaker 2: I even hobby table book. Somebody was offering to do that,

2208
02:01:16,480 --> 02:01:22,440
Speaker 2: but uh yeah, I didn't. Somehow we didn't end up

2209
02:01:22,480 --> 02:01:24,240
Speaker 2: doing that, and that was because we were a little

2210
02:01:24,240 --> 02:01:26,240
Speaker 2: bit early when we were doing it. If we did

2211
02:01:26,280 --> 02:01:29,000
Speaker 2: it now, we would do something online and I think

2212
02:01:29,040 --> 02:01:30,440
Speaker 2: we would get a lot of people that would be

2213
02:01:30,480 --> 02:01:33,880
Speaker 2: interested in it. But you know, you age out of that.

2214
02:01:34,520 --> 02:01:38,040
Speaker 2: It's it's really hard work. You're holding something up like that,

2215
02:01:39,000 --> 02:01:41,680
Speaker 2: stuff falls down on you. And I had one time

2216
02:01:42,400 --> 02:01:44,240
Speaker 2: I saw this thing up in a tree and it

2217
02:01:44,400 --> 02:01:47,760
Speaker 2: was really nasty looking, and it was a terry cloth

2218
02:01:47,920 --> 02:01:50,640
Speaker 2: towel and it was kind of bagged out a little bit,

2219
02:01:50,680 --> 02:01:53,360
Speaker 2: and it was hanging from one branch to another, kind

2220
02:01:53,400 --> 02:01:56,440
Speaker 2: of hammock like, and I thought, that thing's full of water.

2221
02:01:57,160 --> 02:01:59,600
Speaker 2: And so I have my snagger as a hook on

2222
02:01:59,680 --> 02:02:02,000
Speaker 2: the end, and I went up and hooked into that

2223
02:02:03,040 --> 02:02:06,280
Speaker 2: terry cloth towel and a rat ran.

2224
02:02:08,640 --> 02:02:12,000
Speaker 1: At me and it was like, wow, I was gonna

2225
02:02:12,040 --> 02:02:13,360
Speaker 1: have one hundred feet.

2226
02:02:13,720 --> 02:02:15,600
Speaker 2: I mean the guy, my friend Tim, who I was

2227
02:02:15,680 --> 02:02:17,800
Speaker 2: doing it with, said he looked at me and he

2228
02:02:17,880 --> 02:02:19,840
Speaker 2: thought I had been electrocuted.

2229
02:02:20,800 --> 02:02:21,280
Speaker 1: A wire.

2230
02:02:21,720 --> 02:02:23,760
Speaker 2: And I mean, but to have a rat looking right

2231
02:02:23,920 --> 02:02:26,600
Speaker 2: at you running down the pole, and the thing is

2232
02:02:26,880 --> 02:02:31,040
Speaker 2: he he got pretty close and before I could drop it,

2233
02:02:31,120 --> 02:02:33,640
Speaker 2: and then he jumped to a tree and then he

2234
02:02:33,920 --> 02:02:34,600
Speaker 2: jumped to the.

2235
02:02:34,760 --> 02:02:38,120
Speaker 1: Roof of like a store in yourbody.

2236
02:02:38,120 --> 02:02:39,840
Speaker 2: But I mean, rats, that was a high. It was

2237
02:02:39,920 --> 02:02:40,800
Speaker 2: a long jump.

2238
02:02:40,880 --> 02:02:43,240
Speaker 1: They can really fly. They're amazing.

2239
02:02:43,360 --> 02:02:46,480
Speaker 4: So you have a necessary gear chapter, and you have

2240
02:02:46,600 --> 02:02:51,480
Speaker 4: some cautionary tales wildlife con electricity, wildlife con.

2241
02:02:53,480 --> 02:02:53,880
Speaker 1: It's great.

2242
02:02:53,960 --> 02:02:58,200
Speaker 4: I have to clear up are who wrote a Boy

2243
02:02:58,280 --> 02:02:58,680
Speaker 4: with a gun?

2244
02:02:59,280 --> 02:02:59,960
Speaker 1: Give a boy gun?

2245
02:03:00,960 --> 02:03:05,440
Speaker 4: So give a boy a gun? A true story of

2246
02:03:05,600 --> 02:03:07,720
Speaker 4: law and disorder in the American West.

2247
02:03:07,840 --> 02:03:09,000
Speaker 1: That's the Claude Dallas story.

2248
02:03:09,480 --> 02:03:13,680
Speaker 4: Jack Olson told you give a boy a gun? Not

2249
02:03:13,920 --> 02:03:14,560
Speaker 4: jack Olson.

2250
02:03:16,560 --> 02:03:20,120
Speaker 1: The Strasser Todd What's that give a boy Gun about?

2251
02:03:20,320 --> 02:03:24,800
Speaker 4: It's an epistolary tale for young adults by Todd Strasser,

2252
02:03:24,920 --> 02:03:26,320
Speaker 4: first published in two thousands.

2253
02:03:26,360 --> 02:03:28,600
Speaker 1: Stool Dude, How many young adults out there are going

2254
02:03:28,680 --> 02:03:30,960
Speaker 1: to see a book that says an epistolary tale for

2255
02:03:31,040 --> 02:03:35,480
Speaker 1: young adults and pick that up. You know, I don't know,

2256
02:03:35,800 --> 02:03:38,120
Speaker 1: I'm no marketer, but crying out loud, well.

2257
02:03:38,000 --> 02:03:40,240
Speaker 4: Back in the days of kids being in libraries all

2258
02:03:40,240 --> 02:03:42,040
Speaker 4: the time, yeah, that probably would have been like give

2259
02:03:42,040 --> 02:03:43,800
Speaker 4: a boy a gun, great, Oh yeah.

2260
02:03:43,680 --> 02:03:45,480
Speaker 1: They would have know the name would have hooked him

2261
02:03:45,480 --> 02:03:48,280
Speaker 1: because they wanted a gun. Yeah, but then the epistolary

2262
02:03:48,320 --> 02:03:50,120
Speaker 1: part they would have lost them. Yeah, it'd be like

2263
02:03:50,200 --> 02:03:56,000
Speaker 1: pistols cool, Hey, give a piece of advice, for give

2264
02:03:56,040 --> 02:03:57,680
Speaker 1: a piece of a writer, because he used to give

2265
02:03:57,680 --> 02:04:00,400
Speaker 1: me a lot of writer's advice. What can for that?

2266
02:04:00,520 --> 02:04:04,400
Speaker 3: Can I ask questions? Both of you did the whole Like,

2267
02:04:04,640 --> 02:04:08,160
Speaker 3: don't write in a way where you start by explaining

2268
02:04:08,240 --> 02:04:11,440
Speaker 3: what you're gonna write, then you write what you're gonna write,

2269
02:04:11,440 --> 02:04:12,440
Speaker 3: and then explain what is that?

2270
02:04:13,200 --> 02:04:15,720
Speaker 1: No, I think that that was one of my own annoyances. Okay,

2271
02:04:15,880 --> 02:04:20,240
Speaker 1: all right, Where you start by how do I put it?

2272
02:04:20,760 --> 02:04:23,160
Speaker 3: You start by explaining what you're gonna write.

2273
02:04:23,400 --> 02:04:25,600
Speaker 1: You kind of explain what you're gonna write and write,

2274
02:04:25,840 --> 02:04:27,520
Speaker 1: and then you explain what you just wrote.

2275
02:04:28,080 --> 02:04:33,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it's a common structure. You know, it's

2276
02:04:33,840 --> 02:04:36,960
Speaker 2: a common structure of sermons for example. You know, so

2277
02:04:37,120 --> 02:04:38,600
Speaker 2: this is what I'm gonna be telling you about. And

2278
02:04:38,680 --> 02:04:40,040
Speaker 2: then they tell you and then they tell you what

2279
02:04:40,080 --> 02:04:43,600
Speaker 2: they told you about. So it's not it's not uncommon.

2280
02:04:43,720 --> 02:04:45,920
Speaker 2: But no, you're saying advice about.

2281
02:04:45,760 --> 02:04:47,879
Speaker 1: Give some writerly advice for aspiring writers.

2282
02:04:49,760 --> 02:04:57,160
Speaker 2: Uh, hit them where they ain't well, you know, isn't

2283
02:04:57,200 --> 02:04:59,920
Speaker 2: that hitting advice like in base?

2284
02:05:00,440 --> 02:05:00,600
Speaker 7: You know?

2285
02:05:01,400 --> 02:05:06,560
Speaker 2: I mean when I moved to Missoula. I mean, this

2286
02:05:06,720 --> 02:05:08,440
Speaker 2: is a long way around of saying this, but when

2287
02:05:08,480 --> 02:05:11,440
Speaker 2: I moved to Missoula, there's a central building there on

2288
02:05:11,600 --> 02:05:14,520
Speaker 2: campus and it has a big high spire maybe you remember.

2289
02:05:14,680 --> 02:05:18,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and something with the Mansfields or something. I

2290
02:05:18,800 --> 02:05:21,280
Speaker 1: don't know, it might have to do with the Mansfields.

2291
02:05:22,640 --> 02:05:27,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, And when we got there that week, somebody nobody

2292
02:05:27,720 --> 02:05:31,160
Speaker 2: knew who climbed up on that spire and impaled a

2293
02:05:31,280 --> 02:05:35,120
Speaker 2: pumpkin on this spire. How they did it was absolutely

2294
02:05:35,200 --> 02:05:37,440
Speaker 2: a mystery, you know, you just but it was a

2295
02:05:37,600 --> 02:05:42,400
Speaker 2: risky thing to do, and that like, I mean, I

2296
02:05:42,640 --> 02:05:45,840
Speaker 2: I was careful talking to young writers because I don't

2297
02:05:45,880 --> 02:05:48,000
Speaker 2: want to tell them to go out and do something dangerous.

2298
02:05:48,640 --> 02:05:51,200
Speaker 2: But if you pay attention to what people are writing

2299
02:05:51,240 --> 02:05:54,600
Speaker 2: about and what people are thinking about, it will run

2300
02:05:54,720 --> 02:05:57,280
Speaker 2: to a type. There's certain kinds of things that just

2301
02:05:57,400 --> 02:05:59,560
Speaker 2: everybody's sort of thinking the same thing. And that's the

2302
02:05:59,600 --> 02:06:02,760
Speaker 2: way it is with just human beings. And see the

2303
02:06:02,880 --> 02:06:06,600
Speaker 2: thing that people aren't thinking about in the way, for me,

2304
02:06:06,880 --> 02:06:09,400
Speaker 2: the bronx is an example. Nobody's thinking about the bronx,

2305
02:06:10,640 --> 02:06:13,200
Speaker 2: and or you know, people are, but it wasn't like

2306
02:06:13,280 --> 02:06:16,680
Speaker 2: a subject of people to means a light movement. But

2307
02:06:16,800 --> 02:06:19,040
Speaker 2: the other thing is do something that other people are

2308
02:06:19,080 --> 02:06:23,280
Speaker 2: afraid to do, because if you do that, you have

2309
02:06:23,400 --> 02:06:26,720
Speaker 2: got a book already, you know. I mean Neil Armstrong

2310
02:06:26,800 --> 02:06:29,360
Speaker 2: steps on the Moon, he's got a book. You know,

2311
02:06:30,640 --> 02:06:33,960
Speaker 2: if you're you know, if you do something that other

2312
02:06:34,080 --> 02:06:38,440
Speaker 2: people don't do, you might not even write about that thing.

2313
02:06:38,920 --> 02:06:40,800
Speaker 2: It would just put you in a frame of mind

2314
02:06:40,880 --> 02:06:44,160
Speaker 2: where you could you had authority, where you felt you

2315
02:06:44,280 --> 02:06:47,000
Speaker 2: had something to tell people. You know, if you do

2316
02:06:47,160 --> 02:06:50,040
Speaker 2: something that people are like drive across Siberia, most people

2317
02:06:50,080 --> 02:06:53,720
Speaker 2: would say, don't do that, why do that? But if

2318
02:06:53,800 --> 02:06:55,560
Speaker 2: you do it, then you have something to write about.

2319
02:06:55,640 --> 02:06:58,160
Speaker 2: So that's sort of just a simple nonfiction way of

2320
02:06:58,240 --> 02:07:02,240
Speaker 2: doing it. How people write fiction is another question. I

2321
02:07:02,360 --> 02:07:06,839
Speaker 2: don't I have written one nonfiction. I have written one novel,

2322
02:07:07,560 --> 02:07:12,120
Speaker 2: and it was called The Cursing Mommy's Book of Days.

2323
02:07:12,560 --> 02:07:15,080
Speaker 2: I had this character called the Cursing Mommy who starts

2324
02:07:15,120 --> 02:07:17,280
Speaker 2: out to make like chilli and she's telling me how

2325
02:07:17,360 --> 02:07:19,160
Speaker 2: she makes a chili and then everything goes wrong and

2326
02:07:19,280 --> 02:07:23,280
Speaker 2: she's just cursing like crazy. And this was about how

2327
02:07:23,360 --> 02:07:25,440
Speaker 2: she kind of it was a year in her life,

2328
02:07:25,520 --> 02:07:28,240
Speaker 2: and it was, you know, it was an attempt. I

2329
02:07:28,320 --> 02:07:31,760
Speaker 2: don't really feel that fiction is my is my thing,

2330
02:07:31,920 --> 02:07:35,840
Speaker 2: but but for nonfiction, it's a question of looking and

2331
02:07:35,960 --> 02:07:38,240
Speaker 2: seeing what other people are doing and what other people

2332
02:07:38,320 --> 02:07:42,040
Speaker 2: aren't doing and telling something that you feel like really

2333
02:07:42,480 --> 02:07:44,960
Speaker 2: people should know, I mean, and you'd look for stuff

2334
02:07:45,040 --> 02:07:47,360
Speaker 2: like that. So I don't know what would your writerly

2335
02:07:47,440 --> 02:07:47,880
Speaker 2: advice be.

2336
02:07:48,040 --> 02:07:53,520
Speaker 1: So I don't know. I got a there's a work

2337
02:07:53,600 --> 02:07:56,920
Speaker 1: ethic like you you're not a preachy person, but there's

2338
02:07:56,920 --> 02:07:58,800
Speaker 1: a work ethic component. And I don't know. You might

2339
02:07:58,880 --> 02:08:03,840
Speaker 1: not remember the story. Uh, just as you mentored me,

2340
02:08:04,320 --> 02:08:06,720
Speaker 1: you had you were mentoring some other guy after me,

2341
02:08:08,200 --> 02:08:11,760
Speaker 1: and somehow you had gotten something lined up for them.

2342
02:08:12,360 --> 02:08:14,880
Speaker 1: You'd gotten a writing piece lined up for him, and

2343
02:08:16,600 --> 02:08:19,840
Speaker 1: they told you they couldn't do it because they had

2344
02:08:19,880 --> 02:08:24,240
Speaker 1: to go on family vacation. Yeah, and you were done

2345
02:08:24,280 --> 02:08:31,880
Speaker 1: with that person. Now that's you were just so like

2346
02:08:32,200 --> 02:08:33,960
Speaker 1: dismayed and blown away.

2347
02:08:34,320 --> 02:08:37,800
Speaker 2: I don't remember who what the specific person would have been,

2348
02:08:37,920 --> 02:08:41,840
Speaker 2: but that was like, that's it. Yeah. If somebody says, well,

2349
02:08:41,920 --> 02:08:44,080
Speaker 2: I also have to do such, I said, no, you don't.

2350
02:08:44,200 --> 02:08:45,960
Speaker 2: You don't also have to do anything else.

2351
02:08:46,760 --> 02:08:48,640
Speaker 1: I can't. I remember you tell me that you were

2352
02:08:48,760 --> 02:08:57,880
Speaker 1: just like so endo that mentorship. Yeah. Uh, we're gonna

2353
02:08:57,880 --> 02:09:00,960
Speaker 1: do trivia next, You're gonna stick around. Okay, h do

2354
02:09:01,000 --> 02:09:02,240
Speaker 1: you know about what I'm talking about?

2355
02:09:03,000 --> 02:09:05,080
Speaker 2: I haven't. I haven't listened to a trivia show of

2356
02:09:05,200 --> 02:09:05,680
Speaker 2: yours yet.

2357
02:09:06,000 --> 02:09:11,600
Speaker 1: You see that where it says, uh, where's the visitors thing?

2358
02:09:12,600 --> 02:09:16,400
Speaker 1: At bottom? We've had eight wins by trivia guests.

2359
02:09:16,880 --> 02:09:17,160
Speaker 5: Really.

2360
02:09:17,360 --> 02:09:20,720
Speaker 1: Wow, Okay, I think you might. You have he has

2361
02:09:20,840 --> 02:09:22,120
Speaker 1: you have a very good chance of doing.

2362
02:09:22,480 --> 02:09:24,680
Speaker 2: Okay, well I'll take as take a shot.

2363
02:09:24,880 --> 02:09:28,120
Speaker 1: Okay, for those of you listen, you want to check

2364
02:09:28,160 --> 02:09:33,960
Speaker 1: it out. The writer Ian Fraser, author of a bunch

2365
02:09:34,000 --> 02:09:39,480
Speaker 1: of books, the Ones for for our Audience, I would

2366
02:09:39,560 --> 02:09:50,280
Speaker 1: say the Fish's Eye Great Planes, and then it's I

2367
02:09:50,360 --> 02:09:55,560
Speaker 1: think travels in Siberia, great planes, Fish's Eye travels. And

2368
02:09:56,960 --> 02:09:58,920
Speaker 1: is that all right? That's insulting?

2369
02:09:59,360 --> 02:09:59,720
Speaker 7: No, not.

2370
02:10:00,720 --> 02:10:03,160
Speaker 1: They're all adventure books in a way. I put that.

2371
02:10:03,320 --> 02:10:05,520
Speaker 1: I put great Planes on like anytime I have to do,

2372
02:10:05,680 --> 02:10:07,880
Speaker 1: like like the greatest books of all time, my favorite

2373
02:10:07,880 --> 02:10:12,280
Speaker 1: books of all time. Well, I'm I'm happy to hear that.

2374
02:10:12,560 --> 02:10:17,600
Speaker 1: I mean, it's just oh, it's good. It's like, I mean,

2375
02:10:17,640 --> 02:10:22,200
Speaker 1: it changed my worldview, man, it really did.

2376
02:10:22,400 --> 02:10:23,480
Speaker 2: I'm honored.

2377
02:10:23,640 --> 02:10:25,120
Speaker 1: I know you wrote a long time ago. You wrote

2378
02:10:25,160 --> 02:10:27,320
Speaker 1: a ton of stuff since then, and maybe it's annoying

2379
02:10:27,360 --> 02:10:28,760
Speaker 1: to hear about some book you wrote a long time.

2380
02:10:28,760 --> 02:10:30,360
Speaker 1: It doesn't bother me to hear about stuff I wrote

2381
02:10:30,400 --> 02:10:30,960
Speaker 1: a long time ago.

2382
02:10:31,440 --> 02:10:36,720
Speaker 2: No, it doesn't, it doesn't. But uh, you know, you

2383
02:10:36,840 --> 02:10:38,320
Speaker 2: think you have to do you want to do the

2384
02:10:38,400 --> 02:10:46,880
Speaker 2: next thing too, so sure it's uh, sometimes you just

2385
02:10:47,480 --> 02:10:49,320
Speaker 2: there will be the one thing that you do and

2386
02:10:49,440 --> 02:10:52,680
Speaker 2: that that might be that might be it. But but uh,

2387
02:10:54,960 --> 02:10:57,360
Speaker 2: but yeah, I'm always I'm looking for the next thing.

2388
02:10:57,400 --> 02:10:59,960
Speaker 2: And I feel I feel good about steamboat explosions.

2389
02:11:00,120 --> 02:11:02,520
Speaker 1: No, I'm feeling good about what did you say, the

2390
02:11:02,600 --> 02:11:03,440
Speaker 1: Bronx book's gonna be.

2391
02:11:03,440 --> 02:11:06,160
Speaker 2: Called it's going to be called Paradise Bronx.

2392
02:11:06,240 --> 02:11:08,960
Speaker 1: Okay, and then the other one will be called Disasters

2393
02:11:09,040 --> 02:11:09,840
Speaker 1: on Western Rivers.

2394
02:11:10,800 --> 02:11:15,400
Speaker 2: Dars, No, it might be Actually I love that title,

2395
02:11:15,480 --> 02:11:16,960
Speaker 2: Disasters on the Western River.

2396
02:11:17,520 --> 02:11:20,040
Speaker 1: You start a rock band with the same name. Yeah, alright,

2397
02:11:20,080 --> 02:11:23,520
Speaker 1: stay tuned, you'll see what always comes out the next day, right.

2398
02:11:24,720 --> 02:11:26,880
Speaker 4: Trivie days Wednesdays, So.

2399
02:11:26,920 --> 02:11:28,760
Speaker 1: If you're listening with this hot off the press, it's

2400
02:11:28,800 --> 02:11:34,240
Speaker 1: Monday joining Wednesday for the Trivia Show, in which Ian

2401
02:11:34,360 --> 02:11:41,120
Speaker 1: Fraser maybe wins, probably not, probably not. Maybe try to

2402
02:11:41,120 --> 02:11:42,000
Speaker 1: build up suspense.

2403
02:11:42,360 --> 02:11:43,960
Speaker 2: I want to keep down expectations.

2404
02:11:44,000 --> 02:11:45,879
Speaker 1: So see you all at the Trivia show. Thanks for joining.

2405
02:11:58,440 --> 02:12:04,080
Speaker 7: Seal out Shine like Silver in the Sun.

2406
02:12:07,960 --> 02:12:17,680
Speaker 1: Ride, Ride, Ride on alone, Sweetheart. We're done beat this

2407
02:12:17,960 --> 02:12:19,680
Speaker 1: damp horse to death.

2408
02:12:20,920 --> 02:12:23,160
Speaker 6: Taking a new one and ride.

2409
02:12:26,600 --> 02:12:32,520
Speaker 2: We're done beat this damn horseday, So take a new

2410
02:12:32,600 --> 02:12:34,400
Speaker 2: one and ride on