1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:22,436 Speaker 1: Pushkin years ago, and this is going to date me. 2 00:00:23,116 --> 00:00:25,476 Speaker 1: My best friend Bruce and I used to make mixtapes 3 00:00:25,476 --> 00:00:29,236 Speaker 1: for each other, actually mixed CDs. We used to spend 4 00:00:29,316 --> 00:00:32,236 Speaker 1: enormous amounts of time picking the songs and then an 5 00:00:32,276 --> 00:00:34,636 Speaker 1: even more enormous amount of time on the art for 6 00:00:34,716 --> 00:00:38,596 Speaker 1: the CD box. My mixes were always named after Pope's 7 00:00:38,956 --> 00:00:42,156 Speaker 1: for reasons I cannot remember, like Pope Pious to twelfth 8 00:00:42,396 --> 00:00:46,676 Speaker 1: with a big photocopied picture of him in some ermine robe. Anyway, 9 00:00:47,036 --> 00:00:48,996 Speaker 1: the point of the mixes, and I think this is 10 00:00:49,036 --> 00:00:50,956 Speaker 1: true of everyone who grew up in the mix era, 11 00:00:51,556 --> 00:00:54,396 Speaker 1: was to find songs that you knew about and liked, 12 00:00:54,756 --> 00:00:57,476 Speaker 1: and that you believed that your best friend didn't know 13 00:00:57,516 --> 00:01:00,916 Speaker 1: about and would like, which, if you're talking about someone 14 00:01:00,916 --> 00:01:03,236 Speaker 1: with whom you've been sharing music, your whole life is 15 00:01:03,276 --> 00:01:07,516 Speaker 1: a pretty narrow window. Anyway. Bruce put the acoustic re 16 00:01:07,516 --> 00:01:11,236 Speaker 1: release of Elvis Costello's Deeptie on a special mix. I 17 00:01:11,276 --> 00:01:12,876 Speaker 1: think it was for one of my birthdays in my 18 00:01:12,956 --> 00:01:16,836 Speaker 1: roaring twenties. I just remember thinking two things as I 19 00:01:16,876 --> 00:01:21,836 Speaker 1: listened to that song over and over again. First, I 20 00:01:21,916 --> 00:01:25,276 Speaker 1: knew the first version and hated it. And This was 21 00:01:25,316 --> 00:01:28,316 Speaker 1: the same song sung by the same artist, and now 22 00:01:28,396 --> 00:01:32,476 Speaker 1: in this form it was magical. How did that work? 23 00:01:33,516 --> 00:01:36,676 Speaker 1: The second thing I remember thinking is this is why 24 00:01:36,676 --> 00:01:40,596 Speaker 1: God invented best friends. I still think that. By the way, 25 00:01:41,956 --> 00:01:48,076 Speaker 1: here we go the first in our musical encore, Hallelujah. 26 00:01:48,476 --> 00:01:52,116 Speaker 1: In nineteen eighty four, Alvis Costello released his ninth album, 27 00:01:52,396 --> 00:01:55,556 Speaker 1: Goodbye Cruel World. I bought it the week it came out, 28 00:01:55,596 --> 00:01:58,156 Speaker 1: because I bought every Elvis Costello album back then the 29 00:01:58,156 --> 00:02:01,396 Speaker 1: week it came out. There's a theory in psychology the 30 00:02:01,476 --> 00:02:04,116 Speaker 1: music you listened to at ages nineteen and twenty is 31 00:02:04,116 --> 00:02:07,196 Speaker 1: the music that imprints itself most deeply on your consciousness. 32 00:02:07,996 --> 00:02:09,716 Speaker 1: If you make a list of your favor it songs, 33 00:02:09,876 --> 00:02:12,876 Speaker 1: you'll see what I mean. Anyway, I was twenty in 34 00:02:12,996 --> 00:02:16,436 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty four, so I remember Goodbye Cruel World. I 35 00:02:16,516 --> 00:02:19,956 Speaker 1: listened to it right away. And this episode is about 36 00:02:19,996 --> 00:02:24,036 Speaker 1: one song on that album. It's called The Deportees Club. 37 00:02:24,596 --> 00:02:29,676 Speaker 1: I still have it on vinyl. It goes like this, 38 00:02:39,156 --> 00:02:47,796 Speaker 1: Oh God, it's awful. My name is Malcolm Bladmo. Welcome 39 00:02:47,916 --> 00:02:56,876 Speaker 1: to Revisionist History, my podcast about things forgotten or misunderstood. 40 00:02:59,436 --> 00:03:01,796 Speaker 1: This week I want to go back to Elvis Costello 41 00:03:01,956 --> 00:03:05,516 Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty four. I should say you don't have 42 00:03:05,596 --> 00:03:08,516 Speaker 1: to know anything about Elvis Costello or even like his 43 00:03:08,636 --> 00:03:12,276 Speaker 1: music to be interested in this story. I'm not talking 44 00:03:12,276 --> 00:03:15,876 Speaker 1: about Deportees Club as a song, but as a symbol. 45 00:03:16,636 --> 00:03:20,956 Speaker 1: I'm interested in understanding how creativity works, and I've chosen 46 00:03:20,996 --> 00:03:24,836 Speaker 1: Depotees Club as my case study for the purely arbitrary 47 00:03:24,876 --> 00:03:29,116 Speaker 1: reason that I'm obsessed with it, and maybe hopefully you 48 00:03:29,196 --> 00:03:40,556 Speaker 1: will be two once you're finished. Depotees Club is the 49 00:03:40,596 --> 00:03:42,876 Speaker 1: second to last song on the B side of Goodbye 50 00:03:42,956 --> 00:03:45,956 Speaker 1: Cruel World. The album cover is a picture of a 51 00:03:45,956 --> 00:03:48,916 Speaker 1: little mountaintop with two trees on it, with Costello and 52 00:03:48,956 --> 00:03:53,036 Speaker 1: his band members in various strange poses. It's all very eighties. 53 00:03:53,996 --> 00:03:56,396 Speaker 1: The record was produced by two legends of the British 54 00:03:56,476 --> 00:03:59,876 Speaker 1: music scene at the time, Clive Langer and Alan win Stanley. 55 00:04:00,476 --> 00:04:03,316 Speaker 1: You've probably heard some of their work. They did records 56 00:04:03,316 --> 00:04:06,636 Speaker 1: with Madness, Lloyd Cole, David Bowie, virtually all of the 57 00:04:06,676 --> 00:04:09,116 Speaker 1: great English new wave hit songs of the nineteen eighties. 58 00:04:09,116 --> 00:04:13,196 Speaker 1: He's In early nineteen nineties, Clive Langer and Allan Winstanley 59 00:04:13,356 --> 00:04:15,996 Speaker 1: were the guys behind the curtain. I don't know if 60 00:04:16,036 --> 00:04:19,116 Speaker 1: you've ever heard Come On Eileen by Dexy's Midnight Runners, 61 00:04:19,756 --> 00:04:23,316 Speaker 1: Come On Eileen. Oh, I swear what he means at 62 00:04:23,316 --> 00:04:26,396 Speaker 1: this moment you mean everything. 63 00:04:26,876 --> 00:04:26,956 Speaker 2: Now. 64 00:04:26,996 --> 00:04:29,156 Speaker 1: I'm a terrible singer, but maybe you could make that 65 00:04:29,236 --> 00:04:38,516 Speaker 1: out that song. Langer and Winstanley Clive Langer knows Elvis Costello. 66 00:04:38,596 --> 00:04:41,636 Speaker 1: Of course they would bump into each other in the 67 00:04:41,676 --> 00:04:43,876 Speaker 1: way that people in a small world always bump into 68 00:04:43,956 --> 00:04:46,676 Speaker 1: each other, and new wave music in the nineteen eighties 69 00:04:46,956 --> 00:04:50,036 Speaker 1: was a small world. At one point, Langer has his 70 00:04:50,076 --> 00:04:51,796 Speaker 1: own band and he was doing a show in a 71 00:04:51,876 --> 00:04:55,356 Speaker 1: riverboat in the river Mersey. Costello calls him up and 72 00:04:55,396 --> 00:04:55,876 Speaker 1: he said, oh. 73 00:04:55,796 --> 00:04:57,996 Speaker 3: I'll come up and play a few songs before you 74 00:04:58,076 --> 00:04:58,356 Speaker 3: go on. 75 00:04:59,036 --> 00:05:02,116 Speaker 1: That's Langer. We met at a pub on Lowiston Road 76 00:05:02,116 --> 00:05:05,956 Speaker 1: in Hackney in North London. He's slightly spidery, with close 77 00:05:05,996 --> 00:05:09,156 Speaker 1: cropped white hair and oversized glasses and the kind of 78 00:05:09,196 --> 00:05:12,676 Speaker 1: graciousness that only the English seemed to possess. An absolutely 79 00:05:12,676 --> 00:05:16,676 Speaker 1: delightful person. My father is English and all older, charming 80 00:05:16,716 --> 00:05:19,596 Speaker 1: englishmen remind me of my father. We had some tea. 81 00:05:20,116 --> 00:05:23,876 Speaker 1: It was all very civilized, Okay, back to Alvis Costello. 82 00:05:24,836 --> 00:05:28,596 Speaker 3: He came up and played all his best songs, I 83 00:05:28,636 --> 00:05:31,396 Speaker 3: mean his hits, you know, Alison and everything. 84 00:05:35,156 --> 00:05:40,756 Speaker 1: So Alison Costello's first big hit. 85 00:05:43,716 --> 00:05:48,556 Speaker 3: And then I had to go on and do my 86 00:05:48,596 --> 00:05:51,156 Speaker 3: first ever show with the same lineup, and we weren't 87 00:05:51,156 --> 00:05:53,476 Speaker 3: as good, you know, So I don't know, I didn't 88 00:05:53,476 --> 00:05:54,436 Speaker 3: know quite how to take that. 89 00:05:55,236 --> 00:05:57,196 Speaker 1: If you detect a little bit of friction in that, 90 00:05:57,476 --> 00:06:01,036 Speaker 1: you're not wrong. Alvis Costello is a genius, and like 91 00:06:01,076 --> 00:06:04,476 Speaker 1: a lot of geniuses, he has a really strong personality. 92 00:06:05,996 --> 00:06:09,236 Speaker 1: A few years passed and Costello's record label decides they 93 00:06:09,236 --> 00:06:12,756 Speaker 1: want to broaden his commercial appeal. He has a fanatical 94 00:06:12,796 --> 00:06:15,596 Speaker 1: following among those who know New Way music, but the 95 00:06:15,676 --> 00:06:18,676 Speaker 1: label wants a big commercial hit, so they turned to 96 00:06:18,716 --> 00:06:21,996 Speaker 1: the hit makers Langer and win Stanley, and the two 97 00:06:22,036 --> 00:06:25,196 Speaker 1: of them produce a record for Costello called Punch the Clock, 98 00:06:25,716 --> 00:06:30,596 Speaker 1: which has a number of absolutely exquisite songs, including Shipbuilding, 99 00:06:30,876 --> 00:06:32,876 Speaker 1: which Langer co wrote with Elvis Costello. 100 00:06:35,636 --> 00:06:37,356 Speaker 4: Is birth. 101 00:06:40,556 --> 00:06:49,516 Speaker 1: New sculting Shoes Fun. You collaborate on Punch the Clock? 102 00:06:49,836 --> 00:06:50,076 Speaker 3: Yeah? 103 00:06:50,196 --> 00:06:52,516 Speaker 1: And you like that album? 104 00:06:52,996 --> 00:06:55,836 Speaker 3: Yes? He doesn't, and he doesn't know. 105 00:06:57,436 --> 00:06:58,876 Speaker 1: Why is he unhappy with it. 106 00:06:59,036 --> 00:07:03,276 Speaker 3: I think it was just too commercial for that time, 107 00:07:03,316 --> 00:07:08,196 Speaker 3: and he wanted to write something simpler, more live, more. 108 00:07:08,516 --> 00:07:10,916 Speaker 3: You know. He's more of a purist than I am, 109 00:07:11,236 --> 00:07:13,916 Speaker 3: so I was brought up with psychedelic pop in the 110 00:07:13,956 --> 00:07:15,956 Speaker 3: mid sixties, so I was kind of like, oh, yeah, 111 00:07:16,036 --> 00:07:17,436 Speaker 3: we can do this, we can do that, you know, 112 00:07:18,036 --> 00:07:20,676 Speaker 3: and he's like, oh, I want it to sound real 113 00:07:20,756 --> 00:07:22,236 Speaker 3: and black pop dinner or something. 114 00:07:22,356 --> 00:07:22,596 Speaker 5: You know. 115 00:07:23,676 --> 00:07:26,076 Speaker 3: But when you get that right, that's amazing. 116 00:07:27,076 --> 00:07:28,876 Speaker 1: I want to hear a little bit more about Punch 117 00:07:28,916 --> 00:07:32,516 Speaker 1: the Clock, about whether those differences in perspective had an 118 00:07:32,596 --> 00:07:34,516 Speaker 1: impact on the way the record turned out. 119 00:07:35,196 --> 00:07:37,556 Speaker 3: Not so much. On Punch the Clock. We didn't have tension. 120 00:07:37,636 --> 00:07:39,756 Speaker 3: We had tension later, which I'll talk to you about 121 00:07:40,196 --> 00:07:42,676 Speaker 3: what we did have. When we did the playback Punched 122 00:07:42,676 --> 00:07:45,516 Speaker 3: the Clock, we got quite drunk and played it back 123 00:07:45,596 --> 00:07:47,156 Speaker 3: really loud, of. 124 00:07:47,156 --> 00:07:49,316 Speaker 1: Course they did, and how much would you kill to 125 00:07:49,396 --> 00:07:50,236 Speaker 1: a bit in the room with. 126 00:07:50,236 --> 00:07:54,836 Speaker 3: Them, and he kind of freaked out, said it's all rubbish, 127 00:07:55,236 --> 00:07:58,076 Speaker 3: you know, it's terrible, it's terrible, and I was like 128 00:07:58,196 --> 00:08:00,996 Speaker 3: I had to, you know, calm him down a bit, 129 00:08:01,036 --> 00:08:03,036 Speaker 3: and we all carry it on. 130 00:08:03,916 --> 00:08:06,796 Speaker 1: When the time comes to make the next album. Costello 131 00:08:06,836 --> 00:08:10,396 Speaker 1: turns to Langer and Winstanley again, only this time. 132 00:08:10,596 --> 00:08:12,436 Speaker 3: The first thing he said is that I want to 133 00:08:12,436 --> 00:08:14,556 Speaker 3: call it Goodbye World. I think it's going to be 134 00:08:14,636 --> 00:08:17,596 Speaker 3: my last album, which he didn't even tell the band, 135 00:08:18,356 --> 00:08:19,676 Speaker 3: so he was confiding in me. 136 00:08:20,396 --> 00:08:23,836 Speaker 1: They do a first run through recording all the songs live. 137 00:08:24,796 --> 00:08:26,716 Speaker 1: Langer is the producer, the one who's supposed to be 138 00:08:26,796 --> 00:08:30,636 Speaker 1: running the show, but immediately there's an issue. Alvis basically 139 00:08:30,676 --> 00:08:31,476 Speaker 1: takes over. 140 00:08:31,716 --> 00:08:35,436 Speaker 3: Because he's quite a forceful, powerful guy, very eloquent and 141 00:08:35,636 --> 00:08:39,596 Speaker 3: you know, lovely, but you can sort of barge in 142 00:08:39,636 --> 00:08:42,996 Speaker 3: and start changing things, you know. So I remember saying 143 00:08:43,036 --> 00:08:46,516 Speaker 3: to it, thanks for letting me be here to listen 144 00:08:46,516 --> 00:08:49,756 Speaker 3: to you and make your record, you know. But I 145 00:08:49,756 --> 00:08:51,676 Speaker 3: don't think it should go like that. Shouldn't be like this, 146 00:08:51,916 --> 00:08:56,036 Speaker 3: you know. So it was a bit. We're a bit 147 00:08:56,036 --> 00:08:57,716 Speaker 3: of a standoff. I think he went out and bought 148 00:08:57,756 --> 00:08:59,316 Speaker 3: a half bottler gin and. 149 00:09:00,116 --> 00:09:02,276 Speaker 1: I asked Langer and why Costello said this was going 150 00:09:02,316 --> 00:09:04,876 Speaker 1: to be his last album. It's not like he was 151 00:09:04,916 --> 00:09:06,436 Speaker 1: an old man ready to retire. 152 00:09:06,956 --> 00:09:10,476 Speaker 3: He wasn't even thirty. It's just he'd had a lot 153 00:09:10,636 --> 00:09:14,356 Speaker 3: on his back you know he'd been through a lot. 154 00:09:15,836 --> 00:09:17,476 Speaker 3: I don't know if he wanted to carry on playing 155 00:09:17,516 --> 00:09:19,796 Speaker 3: the game at that point. 156 00:09:20,756 --> 00:09:24,876 Speaker 1: The result is disastrous. I hated Goodbye Cruel World when 157 00:09:24,916 --> 00:09:27,916 Speaker 1: I first heard it, and remember, I'm a massive Elvis 158 00:09:27,996 --> 00:09:30,996 Speaker 1: Costello fan. A couple of years ago, Costello did a 159 00:09:31,036 --> 00:09:33,956 Speaker 1: television variety show called Spectacle Ladies. 160 00:09:33,676 --> 00:09:36,996 Speaker 5: And gentleman, will you please welcome to the stage. 161 00:09:37,236 --> 00:09:38,436 Speaker 3: I want to list to Nick Lo. 162 00:09:39,396 --> 00:09:41,436 Speaker 1: And in the episode where he interviews Nick Low and 163 00:09:41,516 --> 00:09:45,156 Speaker 1: Richard Thompson, the camera pans the audience and twice you 164 00:09:45,196 --> 00:09:49,756 Speaker 1: see me grinning madly as I said. I'm a massive 165 00:09:49,796 --> 00:09:52,916 Speaker 1: Elvis Costello fan, and believe me when I say Goodbye 166 00:09:52,996 --> 00:09:58,756 Speaker 1: Cruel World was unlistenable, especially Deportie's Club. He was angry 167 00:09:58,916 --> 00:10:08,476 Speaker 1: and loud and upsetting. And I'm not the only one 168 00:10:08,476 --> 00:10:18,436 Speaker 1: who feels that. In nineteen ninety five, the album is 169 00:10:18,516 --> 00:10:21,836 Speaker 1: re released by Raycho Disc Records, and Elvis Costello writes 170 00:10:21,876 --> 00:10:26,756 Speaker 1: in the liner notes, congratulations, you've just purchased our worst album. 171 00:10:27,116 --> 00:10:37,436 Speaker 1: You have to kind of admire his honesty. Except on 172 00:10:37,476 --> 00:10:41,316 Speaker 1: that same re release, Costello includes a new version of 173 00:10:41,316 --> 00:10:44,476 Speaker 1: Deporte's Club, one of the songs on the original album 174 00:10:44,596 --> 00:10:47,396 Speaker 1: he hates so much he gives it a new melody 175 00:10:47,716 --> 00:10:51,516 Speaker 1: and plays it by himself. An acoustic version, shortens the 176 00:10:51,516 --> 00:10:55,956 Speaker 1: title to Deportee, fiddles with some of the lyrics, and 177 00:10:55,996 --> 00:10:59,836 Speaker 1: it never appears anywhere else, just on this random re 178 00:10:59,836 --> 00:11:02,956 Speaker 1: release by Rico disc Records, whatever that is. And I 179 00:11:02,956 --> 00:11:05,556 Speaker 1: would never have heard it except that my friend Bruce 180 00:11:05,636 --> 00:11:08,636 Speaker 1: ran across it and played it for me. Bruce, by 181 00:11:08,676 --> 00:11:10,956 Speaker 1: the way, was also in the audience of that Elvis 182 00:11:10,996 --> 00:11:15,876 Speaker 1: Casseillo TV show, grinning madly. Anyway, Bruce and I used 183 00:11:15,876 --> 00:11:18,196 Speaker 1: to make mixtapes for each other, and he puts this 184 00:11:18,276 --> 00:11:21,796 Speaker 1: new version Deportee on a mixtape for my birthday, and 185 00:11:21,836 --> 00:11:24,516 Speaker 1: I become obsessed with it. I'll bet I sing parts 186 00:11:24,556 --> 00:11:27,676 Speaker 1: of it to myself almost every day. I don't really 187 00:11:27,716 --> 00:11:29,916 Speaker 1: know why, but it might be one of my favorite 188 00:11:29,916 --> 00:11:33,356 Speaker 1: songs ever. There's a line in it that jumps into 189 00:11:33,356 --> 00:11:36,956 Speaker 1: my head whenever I'm sad. It's so perfect, a little 190 00:11:36,956 --> 00:11:41,076 Speaker 1: couplet about the dissolution of romantic love and you don't 191 00:11:41,076 --> 00:11:44,996 Speaker 1: know where to start or where to stop. All this 192 00:11:45,156 --> 00:11:49,556 Speaker 1: pillow talk is finely tall ging shop. 193 00:11:51,956 --> 00:11:52,716 Speaker 3: Can we play it? 194 00:11:53,116 --> 00:11:56,676 Speaker 1: Yeah? I'm in the pub with Clive Langer, the producer 195 00:11:56,756 --> 00:12:01,276 Speaker 1: of the original awful version Deportees Club. Strangely, he'd never 196 00:12:01,356 --> 00:12:04,236 Speaker 1: heard the new, obscure and amazing version of the song 197 00:12:04,516 --> 00:12:05,676 Speaker 1: he produced so long ago. 198 00:12:06,076 --> 00:12:10,036 Speaker 3: Want to hear his new version? Yeah? 199 00:12:10,836 --> 00:12:13,476 Speaker 1: So I found it on my iPhone and Langer leaned 200 00:12:13,476 --> 00:12:15,636 Speaker 1: his head over the table so that his ear would 201 00:12:15,636 --> 00:12:19,436 Speaker 1: be right next to the tiny phone speaker. MS is 202 00:12:19,556 --> 00:12:23,116 Speaker 1: the one in the air, dir. 203 00:12:23,356 --> 00:12:34,596 Speaker 5: Children Nightclub, bar stand in five Classrooms, Its bunch and 204 00:12:34,916 --> 00:12:39,276 Speaker 5: Chip stands. 205 00:12:39,596 --> 00:12:41,716 Speaker 3: On your charms. 206 00:12:43,036 --> 00:12:52,916 Speaker 5: Best doing the bass batles stress stabski and bart booze 207 00:12:53,196 --> 00:13:05,556 Speaker 5: and burn bugs buk deep Barty. There's a tads. 208 00:13:06,876 --> 00:13:10,876 Speaker 1: It sounds like he's on the song, but he didn't 209 00:13:10,916 --> 00:13:13,436 Speaker 1: know at the time either that that's what saw. I mean, 210 00:13:13,436 --> 00:13:16,716 Speaker 1: that's what's sort of fascinating that. Yeah, neither of you 211 00:13:16,756 --> 00:13:17,396 Speaker 1: in the moments. 212 00:13:18,036 --> 00:13:20,156 Speaker 3: No was sometimes you know, if it's not sounding right, 213 00:13:20,676 --> 00:13:24,356 Speaker 3: maybe I don't know, maybe we were not focused enough, 214 00:13:24,996 --> 00:13:27,676 Speaker 3: you know, maybe we were making a record, but we 215 00:13:27,676 --> 00:13:29,196 Speaker 3: were miles away. 216 00:13:29,396 --> 00:13:29,596 Speaker 6: You know. 217 00:13:31,156 --> 00:13:35,556 Speaker 1: In the end, they Elvis Costello and his producers all 218 00:13:35,636 --> 00:13:39,476 Speaker 1: thought they had put out something mediocre. What they didn't 219 00:13:39,516 --> 00:13:43,036 Speaker 1: understand until much later was that that mediocrity contained a 220 00:13:43,036 --> 00:13:47,116 Speaker 1: bit of genius. It's just that it hadn't become genius yet. 221 00:13:55,996 --> 00:13:59,116 Speaker 1: That's what I want to talk about, time and iteration. 222 00:13:59,716 --> 00:14:03,836 Speaker 1: What happens when genius takes its sweet time to emerge. 223 00:14:04,036 --> 00:14:06,236 Speaker 1: I know that this is just one three minute song. 224 00:14:06,596 --> 00:14:08,836 Speaker 1: Maybe you don't even like it, but every time I 225 00:14:08,876 --> 00:14:11,676 Speaker 1: hear I think the same thing, which is this is 226 00:14:11,716 --> 00:14:14,316 Speaker 1: something that gives a lot of people in the world pleasure, 227 00:14:14,716 --> 00:14:19,036 Speaker 1: including me. And it almost didn't happen. If Elvis Costello 228 00:14:19,076 --> 00:14:22,956 Speaker 1: doesn't go back and revisit Deportees Club turn it into Deportees, 229 00:14:23,276 --> 00:14:26,236 Speaker 1: we miss all that beauty, and the thought of that 230 00:14:26,796 --> 00:14:34,316 Speaker 1: breaks my heart. There's a theory about creativity that I've 231 00:14:34,356 --> 00:14:38,076 Speaker 1: always loved. It's an idea that an economist named David 232 00:14:38,076 --> 00:14:41,916 Speaker 1: Gailnsen came up with. Gailenson is an art lover, and 233 00:14:41,996 --> 00:14:44,476 Speaker 1: it strikes him when looking at modern art, that there 234 00:14:44,476 --> 00:14:47,996 Speaker 1: are two very different trajectories that great artists seem to take. 235 00:14:49,236 --> 00:14:51,236 Speaker 1: On the one hand, there are those who do their 236 00:14:51,236 --> 00:14:53,876 Speaker 1: best work very early in their life. They tend to 237 00:14:53,876 --> 00:14:56,996 Speaker 1: work quickly. They have very specific ideas that they want 238 00:14:56,996 --> 00:15:01,236 Speaker 1: to communicate, and they can articulate those ideas clearly. They 239 00:15:01,276 --> 00:15:06,676 Speaker 1: plan precisely and meticulously, then they execute boom. Gailensen calls 240 00:15:06,716 --> 00:15:11,676 Speaker 1: them conceptual innovators. Picasso is a great example. He bursts 241 00:15:11,716 --> 00:15:14,556 Speaker 1: on the scene in his early twenties and electrifies the 242 00:15:14,676 --> 00:15:16,996 Speaker 1: art world at the turn of the last century. I 243 00:15:17,036 --> 00:15:19,516 Speaker 1: think that someone like Picasso is who we have in 244 00:15:19,596 --> 00:15:26,876 Speaker 1: mind when we think of that word genius. But Galenson says, 245 00:15:26,956 --> 00:15:30,556 Speaker 1: wait a minute, there's another kind of creativity. He calls 246 00:15:30,596 --> 00:15:35,556 Speaker 1: it experimental innovation. Experimental innovators are people who never have 247 00:15:35,636 --> 00:15:40,116 Speaker 1: a clear, easily articulated idea. They don't work quickly when 248 00:15:40,116 --> 00:15:42,396 Speaker 1: they start off. They don't really know where they're going. 249 00:15:42,756 --> 00:15:45,876 Speaker 1: They work by trial and error. They do endless drafts. 250 00:15:46,156 --> 00:15:49,676 Speaker 1: They're perpetually unsatisfied. It can take them a lifetime to 251 00:15:49,716 --> 00:15:53,996 Speaker 1: figure out what they want to say. Who's a good example. Seisson, 252 00:15:54,876 --> 00:15:58,156 Speaker 1: every bit as famous and important a painter as Picasso, 253 00:15:58,396 --> 00:16:01,356 Speaker 1: may be the greatest of the Impressionists who reinvent modern 254 00:16:01,436 --> 00:16:05,076 Speaker 1: art in Paris in the late eighteen hundreds. With Seison's 255 00:16:05,076 --> 00:16:08,556 Speaker 1: genius and Picasso's genius, they could not be more different. 256 00:16:10,436 --> 00:16:11,956 Speaker 3: Why don't we start with your favorite? 257 00:16:12,156 --> 00:16:13,316 Speaker 5: Do you have a favorite in this field. 258 00:16:14,156 --> 00:16:17,436 Speaker 7: Maybe my favorite at the moment is that one the big. 259 00:16:17,956 --> 00:16:20,956 Speaker 1: I'm talking to a man named John Elderfield. He's a 260 00:16:20,996 --> 00:16:23,516 Speaker 1: season expert, and he took me to that gallery at 261 00:16:23,516 --> 00:16:26,036 Speaker 1: the Metropolitan Museum in New York where they have all 262 00:16:26,036 --> 00:16:29,396 Speaker 1: of their seisons, easily a few billion dollars worth of 263 00:16:29,396 --> 00:16:32,516 Speaker 1: paintings in one room. And it took only about five 264 00:16:32,596 --> 00:16:36,556 Speaker 1: minutes wandering from picture to picture with Elderfield to see 265 00:16:36,676 --> 00:16:38,236 Speaker 1: experimental genius in action. 266 00:16:38,876 --> 00:16:42,436 Speaker 7: So this is one of the many portraits of his 267 00:16:42,516 --> 00:16:46,956 Speaker 7: wife's that Saysan made, and it's one of four pictures 268 00:16:46,996 --> 00:16:49,996 Speaker 7: done in a short period of time when they were 269 00:16:50,036 --> 00:16:51,396 Speaker 7: living together in Paris. 270 00:16:52,316 --> 00:16:54,476 Speaker 1: The seison we're looking at is a picture of a 271 00:16:54,476 --> 00:16:58,116 Speaker 1: middle aged woman seated. Her head is tilted slightly to 272 00:16:58,156 --> 00:17:01,236 Speaker 1: the side. As with a lot of Seison's portraits, we 273 00:17:01,316 --> 00:17:04,076 Speaker 1: can see only one of her ears. He didn't like 274 00:17:04,156 --> 00:17:07,956 Speaker 1: doing the second year. She's sitting quietly, almost floating in 275 00:17:07,996 --> 00:17:09,556 Speaker 1: the chair and kids. 276 00:17:09,676 --> 00:17:14,036 Speaker 7: Arguably, you know, one of the greatest portraits that he did. 277 00:17:14,916 --> 00:17:18,396 Speaker 1: It's one of a series of four similar portraits. Elderfield 278 00:17:18,436 --> 00:17:21,636 Speaker 1: says that the first two are a little smaller, looser, 279 00:17:21,916 --> 00:17:25,036 Speaker 1: maybe one traced from another, and then a third much 280 00:17:25,116 --> 00:17:27,516 Speaker 1: like the one we're looking at, but without any background 281 00:17:27,556 --> 00:17:31,036 Speaker 1: painted in just the figure. Is this very typical of 282 00:17:31,076 --> 00:17:33,956 Speaker 1: the way he worked? So he does essentially comes back 283 00:17:33,996 --> 00:17:35,956 Speaker 1: to her four times. 284 00:17:36,316 --> 00:17:38,236 Speaker 7: Yeah, and then he gets it right. 285 00:17:39,476 --> 00:17:42,636 Speaker 1: Notice my assumption here, because what I was thinking when 286 00:17:42,676 --> 00:17:44,716 Speaker 1: I said that bit about he gets it right the 287 00:17:44,756 --> 00:17:47,876 Speaker 1: fourth time was that if Saeson did four versions, he 288 00:17:47,956 --> 00:17:51,076 Speaker 1: must have been marching towards some kind of preordained conclusion. 289 00:17:51,596 --> 00:17:54,756 Speaker 1: He has an idea and he's perfecting it. But that's 290 00:17:54,796 --> 00:17:59,116 Speaker 1: not seyson Standard practice is you do a sketch, work 291 00:17:59,156 --> 00:18:02,876 Speaker 1: out the problems, do a finished version. Seyson kind of 292 00:18:02,876 --> 00:18:06,116 Speaker 1: starts in the middle. The fourth version of Seeson's portrait 293 00:18:06,156 --> 00:18:08,556 Speaker 1: of his wife, the one we're looking at, is less 294 00:18:08,596 --> 00:18:10,836 Speaker 1: finished than his second and third versions. 295 00:18:10,876 --> 00:18:13,756 Speaker 7: Well, for example, here you can see this unfinished parts 296 00:18:13,836 --> 00:18:17,236 Speaker 7: are putatively unfinished parts. I mean like the area of 297 00:18:17,316 --> 00:18:20,116 Speaker 7: the dress there where there's like you can really see 298 00:18:20,156 --> 00:18:22,596 Speaker 7: the grounds of the canvas, and all the way through 299 00:18:22,636 --> 00:18:24,996 Speaker 7: the lower part. You know, you can see who's been 300 00:18:25,036 --> 00:18:28,636 Speaker 7: putting these breast strikes down and not actually filling them 301 00:18:28,636 --> 00:18:29,236 Speaker 7: all together. 302 00:18:30,476 --> 00:18:34,276 Speaker 1: Seizan didn't work according to some clear linear plan. He 303 00:18:34,356 --> 00:18:38,596 Speaker 1: basically just did versions over and again, iteration after iteration, 304 00:18:39,076 --> 00:18:43,556 Speaker 1: trying to stumble on something that seized his imagination. Many 305 00:18:43,596 --> 00:18:46,636 Speaker 1: of Saizan's paintings are unsigned because he doesn't want to 306 00:18:46,676 --> 00:18:49,876 Speaker 1: admit to himself that he's done. He does portraits of 307 00:18:49,916 --> 00:18:52,596 Speaker 1: his art dealer, Ambrose Viallard, and he makes him come 308 00:18:52,676 --> 00:18:54,476 Speaker 1: for a hundred sittings. 309 00:18:54,076 --> 00:18:55,396 Speaker 7: One hundred, one hundred. 310 00:18:55,556 --> 00:18:57,756 Speaker 1: Normally they would be how many now, I. 311 00:18:57,676 --> 00:19:00,636 Speaker 7: Mean normally for portraits it would just be a relatively 312 00:19:00,676 --> 00:19:03,076 Speaker 7: short number, I mean five or something. 313 00:19:03,236 --> 00:19:05,716 Speaker 1: Why does he need one hundred exactly? 314 00:19:05,876 --> 00:19:07,956 Speaker 7: I mean, what's what's he doing? All the time? 315 00:19:09,156 --> 00:19:12,756 Speaker 1: Z was never finished? This is what David Gillinson means 316 00:19:12,756 --> 00:19:15,956 Speaker 1: by experimental genius, and Galenson points out that you can 317 00:19:15,996 --> 00:19:24,756 Speaker 1: see this creative type in virtually every field. Herman Melville 318 00:19:24,756 --> 00:19:27,676 Speaker 1: publishes Moby Dick when he's thirty two, writes it in 319 00:19:27,676 --> 00:19:28,316 Speaker 1: a heartbeat. 320 00:19:28,556 --> 00:19:29,276 Speaker 3: He's Picasso. 321 00:19:31,436 --> 00:19:34,516 Speaker 1: Mark Twain publishes Huck Finn when he's in his late forties, 322 00:19:34,556 --> 00:19:37,316 Speaker 1: and it takes him forever because he ends up obsessively 323 00:19:37,396 --> 00:19:43,276 Speaker 1: rewriting and rewriting the ending. He says on Orson Wells 324 00:19:43,276 --> 00:19:47,036 Speaker 1: does Citizen Kane when he's twenty four Picasso. Alfred Hitchcock 325 00:19:47,036 --> 00:19:49,836 Speaker 1: doesn't reach his prime until his mid fifties, after he 326 00:19:49,916 --> 00:19:53,956 Speaker 1: spent his entire career making one thriller after another, playing 327 00:19:53,996 --> 00:19:59,556 Speaker 1: with a genre over and over again, says On. But 328 00:19:59,596 --> 00:20:02,596 Speaker 1: there's one field where I think Galenson's theory plays out 329 00:20:02,636 --> 00:20:04,916 Speaker 1: the most powerfully, and that's music. 330 00:20:06,436 --> 00:20:12,676 Speaker 6: It goes like this, the fourth fifth, the monifold, major lift, 331 00:20:13,156 --> 00:20:24,316 Speaker 6: the baffled kiing loompos Helua Hellelua, hallelu. 332 00:20:26,476 --> 00:20:27,676 Speaker 4: Helua. 333 00:20:28,676 --> 00:20:32,516 Speaker 1: That's the song Hallelujah. It was composed by the Canadian 334 00:20:32,556 --> 00:20:36,116 Speaker 1: songwriter Leonard Cohen. But basically everybody has done a cover 335 00:20:36,196 --> 00:20:40,436 Speaker 1: of Hallelujah. Rufus Wainwright, You Two, Jeff Buckley, bon Jovie, 336 00:20:40,516 --> 00:20:44,276 Speaker 1: John Kle, Bob Dylan, I could go on. It's featured 337 00:20:44,316 --> 00:20:47,516 Speaker 1: in countless TV and movie soundtracks. If you ride the 338 00:20:47,596 --> 00:20:50,396 Speaker 1: New York City subway on a regular basis, you'll probably 339 00:20:50,396 --> 00:20:53,636 Speaker 1: hear a busker singing it virtually every day. Like a 340 00:20:53,636 --> 00:20:56,476 Speaker 1: good Canadian, I go to a Canada Day celebration every 341 00:20:56,516 --> 00:20:59,356 Speaker 1: year at Joe's Pub in Manhattan, where local artists sing 342 00:20:59,356 --> 00:21:03,396 Speaker 1: cover versions of Canadian songs. Every year, someone does a 343 00:21:03,476 --> 00:21:07,156 Speaker 1: version of Hallelujah. Every year it brings down the house. 344 00:21:08,116 --> 00:21:11,036 Speaker 1: And here's what's in thinking about that song. It is 345 00:21:11,156 --> 00:21:25,596 Speaker 1: so not Picasso, it is Seyson textbook seison. A few 346 00:21:25,716 --> 00:21:29,196 Speaker 1: years ago, the music writer Alan Light wrote an absolutely 347 00:21:29,276 --> 00:21:33,036 Speaker 1: wonderful book, an entire book on the song Hallelujah. It's 348 00:21:33,076 --> 00:21:35,596 Speaker 1: called The Holy of the Broken. And one of the 349 00:21:35,596 --> 00:21:39,756 Speaker 1: big themes is how peculiar Leonard Cohen is. He's a poet, 350 00:21:40,076 --> 00:21:41,156 Speaker 1: a tortured poet. 351 00:21:41,596 --> 00:21:43,956 Speaker 8: He is a writer in that way that he labors 352 00:21:43,996 --> 00:21:47,756 Speaker 8: over what these lyrics are, line by line, word by word, 353 00:21:47,796 --> 00:21:51,116 Speaker 8: throws a lot away, spends a great deal of time, 354 00:21:51,156 --> 00:21:54,076 Speaker 8: and Hallelujah, famously, out of all of these, is probably 355 00:21:54,076 --> 00:21:57,316 Speaker 8: the song that he says bedeviled him the most. 356 00:21:57,676 --> 00:21:59,996 Speaker 1: That's Alan like, he came by my house one day 357 00:22:00,036 --> 00:22:01,516 Speaker 1: to talk about Hallelujah. 358 00:22:01,596 --> 00:22:05,676 Speaker 8: He sort of was chasing some idea with this song 359 00:22:05,796 --> 00:22:08,676 Speaker 8: and couldn't find it and just kept writing and writing 360 00:22:08,716 --> 00:22:11,596 Speaker 8: and depending when he tells the story, wrote fifty or 361 00:22:11,636 --> 00:22:15,236 Speaker 8: sixty or seventy verses, which just for this song, which. 362 00:22:15,636 --> 00:22:18,916 Speaker 1: I mean, you've been writing about music for many, many years. 363 00:22:18,956 --> 00:22:21,756 Speaker 1: Have you ever heard of a musician who wrote eighty 364 00:22:21,796 --> 00:22:22,316 Speaker 1: different I. 365 00:22:22,676 --> 00:22:24,636 Speaker 8: Don't think so. I mean, and I don't know what that. 366 00:22:24,676 --> 00:22:26,556 Speaker 8: I don't know if that means variations on verses, I 367 00:22:26,596 --> 00:22:29,036 Speaker 8: don't know if that means entirely like how much of 368 00:22:29,036 --> 00:22:31,236 Speaker 8: this is exaggeration, But it doesn't matter. It's a whole 369 00:22:31,236 --> 00:22:36,036 Speaker 8: other level. Well, there's the famous story that you know, 370 00:22:36,116 --> 00:22:38,276 Speaker 8: Leonard Cohen and Bob Dylan have this kind of mutual 371 00:22:38,556 --> 00:22:42,396 Speaker 8: admiration thing, and apparently they met up in the eighties 372 00:22:42,396 --> 00:22:44,796 Speaker 8: at some point they were both in Paris, and they 373 00:22:44,876 --> 00:22:49,636 Speaker 8: went to meet at a cafe and Dylan said, oh, 374 00:22:49,756 --> 00:22:52,836 Speaker 8: I like that that song Hallelujah, which is a fascinating 375 00:22:52,836 --> 00:22:55,356 Speaker 8: piece of this story that really the first person who 376 00:22:55,356 --> 00:22:58,596 Speaker 8: paid attention to Hallelujah as an important song was Bob Dylan. 377 00:22:58,676 --> 00:23:00,076 Speaker 8: But he said to Leonard, you know, I like that song. 378 00:23:00,116 --> 00:23:02,636 Speaker 8: How long do you work on that? And Leonard said, 379 00:23:02,676 --> 00:23:05,316 Speaker 8: I told him that I'd worked on it for two years. 380 00:23:05,676 --> 00:23:08,756 Speaker 1: Which was a lie. Cohen later confessed it took him 381 00:23:08,796 --> 00:23:12,436 Speaker 1: much longer. Then Cohen asks Dylan how long it took 382 00:23:12,476 --> 00:23:13,876 Speaker 1: him to write the song I and I. 383 00:23:14,476 --> 00:23:16,116 Speaker 8: And Bob said, yeah, fifteen minutes. 384 00:23:16,796 --> 00:23:19,236 Speaker 1: Dylan is picasso with Leonard. 385 00:23:19,276 --> 00:23:21,676 Speaker 8: It's not the first thought best thought school at all, 386 00:23:22,156 --> 00:23:25,436 Speaker 8: and he talks about, you know, being in a hotel 387 00:23:25,516 --> 00:23:27,636 Speaker 8: room in his underwear, banging his head on the floor 388 00:23:27,636 --> 00:23:31,396 Speaker 8: because he couldn't solve this song, Hallelujah. 389 00:23:31,716 --> 00:23:36,236 Speaker 1: Leonard Cohen spends five years writing Hallelujah. He finally records 390 00:23:36,236 --> 00:23:38,876 Speaker 1: it in nineteen eighty four. It's for an album called 391 00:23:38,956 --> 00:23:43,476 Speaker 1: Various Positions. When Cohen finishes recording the songs, he takes 392 00:23:43,476 --> 00:23:46,556 Speaker 1: them to his record label, which is CBS. To the 393 00:23:46,556 --> 00:23:50,356 Speaker 1: head of CBS, who's this legendary figure named Walter Yetnikoff, 394 00:23:50,556 --> 00:23:53,316 Speaker 1: who's the guy who releases Michael Jackson's Thriller and Bruce 395 00:23:53,316 --> 00:23:58,276 Speaker 1: Springsteen's Born in USA? Not a dumb guy. Yetnikoff listens 396 00:23:58,316 --> 00:24:01,276 Speaker 1: to Cohen's songs and says, what is this? We're not 397 00:24:01,356 --> 00:24:04,876 Speaker 1: releasing it. It's a disaster. The album ends up being 398 00:24:04,876 --> 00:24:08,756 Speaker 1: released by the independent label Passport Records. It barely makes 399 00:24:08,796 --> 00:24:11,116 Speaker 1: a rip. And if you go back and listen to 400 00:24:11,156 --> 00:24:14,516 Speaker 1: that first Hallelujah and try to forget how beautiful future 401 00:24:14,596 --> 00:24:18,556 Speaker 1: versions would be, the song's failure makes sense. It's not 402 00:24:18,716 --> 00:24:22,716 Speaker 1: there yet. There's an essay written by Michael Barthel about 403 00:24:22,716 --> 00:24:26,396 Speaker 1: the trajectory of Hallelujah, and he calls Cohen's original version 404 00:24:26,956 --> 00:24:41,796 Speaker 1: so hyper serious that it's almost satire. Kind of turgid, 405 00:24:41,916 --> 00:24:46,876 Speaker 1: isn't it. But Cohen's not done. He keeps tinkering with it. 406 00:24:47,316 --> 00:24:49,516 Speaker 1: He plays it in concerts, and he slows it down. 407 00:24:49,596 --> 00:24:53,156 Speaker 1: It becomes twice as long. He changes the first three verses, 408 00:24:53,396 --> 00:24:56,676 Speaker 1: leaving only the final verses the same. The song becomes 409 00:24:56,956 --> 00:24:58,556 Speaker 1: even darker this time around. 410 00:24:59,396 --> 00:25:05,596 Speaker 5: Yeah, I'll see your flag on the marble of the lodge. 411 00:25:05,876 --> 00:25:10,116 Speaker 3: But listen, love, Love is not some kind of pigtorim much. 412 00:25:10,996 --> 00:25:12,036 Speaker 5: No, it's cool. 413 00:25:13,236 --> 00:25:15,356 Speaker 7: It's severa brocale. 414 00:25:16,636 --> 00:25:18,116 Speaker 3: How landed you? 415 00:25:21,796 --> 00:25:21,996 Speaker 4: How? 416 00:25:25,996 --> 00:25:28,236 Speaker 1: One night, Cohen is playing this version at the Beacon 417 00:25:28,316 --> 00:25:31,556 Speaker 1: Ballroom in New York, and the musician John Cale happens 418 00:25:31,556 --> 00:25:34,556 Speaker 1: to be in the audience. Kyle is a legend, used 419 00:25:34,596 --> 00:25:37,756 Speaker 1: to be in the Velvet Underground, a really pivotal figure 420 00:25:37,796 --> 00:25:40,196 Speaker 1: in the rock and roll of vant garde. He hears 421 00:25:40,236 --> 00:25:42,996 Speaker 1: this song come out of Cohen's mouth and he's blown away, 422 00:25:43,756 --> 00:25:46,236 Speaker 1: so he asks Cohen to send in the lyrics. He 423 00:25:46,316 --> 00:25:48,836 Speaker 1: wants to do a version of it, so Cohen faxes 424 00:25:48,916 --> 00:25:52,996 Speaker 1: him fifteen pages. Who knows what the lyrics actually are 425 00:25:52,996 --> 00:25:56,236 Speaker 1: at this point, Cale says that for his version he 426 00:25:56,316 --> 00:25:59,436 Speaker 1: took the cheeky parts. He ends up using the first 427 00:25:59,476 --> 00:26:02,996 Speaker 1: two verses of the original combined with three verses from 428 00:26:03,036 --> 00:26:07,476 Speaker 1: the live performance, and Cale changes some words. Most importantly, 429 00:26:07,636 --> 00:26:11,516 Speaker 1: he changes the theme and brings back the biblical references 430 00:26:11,596 --> 00:26:13,556 Speaker 1: that Cohen had in the album version. 431 00:26:15,316 --> 00:26:18,916 Speaker 4: Maybe there's a God about all? 432 00:26:19,156 --> 00:26:20,236 Speaker 5: I ever love? 433 00:26:20,516 --> 00:26:21,276 Speaker 8: From love? 434 00:26:22,196 --> 00:26:28,236 Speaker 2: How does shoot at someone who are to you? It's 435 00:26:28,356 --> 00:26:31,796 Speaker 2: not a cry you can hear at night. It's not 436 00:26:32,196 --> 00:26:46,076 Speaker 2: somebody you've seen the line. It's a corner ansomer, Olganilluiall. 437 00:26:42,476 --> 00:26:45,436 Speaker 1: Cale is really the one who cracks the code of Hallelujah. 438 00:26:45,676 --> 00:26:49,356 Speaker 1: According to Alan Knight, this cover version appears on a 439 00:26:49,436 --> 00:26:53,156 Speaker 1: Leonard Cohen tribute album put together by a French music magazine. 440 00:26:53,636 --> 00:26:56,316 Speaker 1: It was called I'm Your Fan. Came out in nineteen 441 00:26:56,396 --> 00:27:01,116 Speaker 1: ninety one. Almost nobody bought I'm Your Fan, except weirdly me. 442 00:27:01,996 --> 00:27:04,276 Speaker 1: I think I found it in a remainder bin in 443 00:27:04,316 --> 00:27:07,276 Speaker 1: a little record store on Columbia Road in Washington. 444 00:27:06,956 --> 00:27:07,196 Speaker 4: D C. 445 00:27:08,156 --> 00:27:10,676 Speaker 1: Another person who bought I'm Your Fan was a woman 446 00:27:10,756 --> 00:27:14,156 Speaker 1: named Jeanine who lived in Park Slope in Brooklyn. She 447 00:27:14,316 --> 00:27:17,756 Speaker 1: was good friends with a young aspiring singer named Jeff Buckley. 448 00:27:18,476 --> 00:27:20,836 Speaker 1: He used to house sit at her apartment, and one 449 00:27:20,876 --> 00:27:23,716 Speaker 1: time when Buckley's there, he happens to see the CD 450 00:27:23,836 --> 00:27:26,876 Speaker 1: of I'm Your Fan. He plays it. He hears John 451 00:27:26,956 --> 00:27:30,116 Speaker 1: Cale's version of Hollelujah and decides to do his own 452 00:27:30,196 --> 00:27:33,716 Speaker 1: version of that version. He performs it at a tiny 453 00:27:33,756 --> 00:27:36,436 Speaker 1: little bar in the East village called Cheney, where he 454 00:27:36,476 --> 00:27:39,596 Speaker 1: happens to be heard by an executive from Columbia Records. 455 00:27:40,316 --> 00:27:43,676 Speaker 1: So Columbia Records ends up signing Buckley, and he records 456 00:27:43,716 --> 00:27:47,076 Speaker 1: his version of Hollelujah for the album Grace, which ends 457 00:27:47,116 --> 00:27:50,516 Speaker 1: up being Buckley's first and only studio album. It came 458 00:27:50,516 --> 00:27:51,756 Speaker 1: out in nineteen ninety four. 459 00:27:54,476 --> 00:27:59,716 Speaker 4: Remembering La moved in You and the Holy Dove was 460 00:27:59,796 --> 00:28:14,436 Speaker 4: moving too, and every regret Withdrew is hamon Luya. 461 00:28:15,836 --> 00:28:18,396 Speaker 1: Now I'm guessing that Buckley's version is the one you're 462 00:28:18,396 --> 00:28:22,116 Speaker 1: most familiar with. It's the famous one, the definitive one. 463 00:28:23,116 --> 00:28:26,356 Speaker 1: It's not really a cover of Leonard Cohen's Hallelujah. It's 464 00:28:26,396 --> 00:28:30,036 Speaker 1: a cover of John Cayle's cover of Leonard Cohen's Hallelujah, 465 00:28:30,076 --> 00:28:33,556 Speaker 1: only with Cale's piano swapped out for a guitar, and 466 00:28:33,636 --> 00:28:37,036 Speaker 1: of course Buckley swaps out Cale's voice for his own 467 00:28:37,036 --> 00:28:38,196 Speaker 1: extraordinary voice. 468 00:28:38,876 --> 00:28:39,836 Speaker 3: Alleluia. 469 00:29:01,276 --> 00:29:05,036 Speaker 1: Every subsequent cover, and there have been hundreds, are really 470 00:29:05,036 --> 00:29:09,116 Speaker 1: covers of Buckley covering Kal covering Cohen. So the evolution 471 00:29:09,636 --> 00:29:12,716 Speaker 1: finally stops. But wait, not really. 472 00:29:13,436 --> 00:29:16,636 Speaker 8: Buckley records a song in nineteen ninety four, still nobody 473 00:29:16,716 --> 00:29:19,476 Speaker 8: particularly pays attention to it. I mean again, in retrospect, 474 00:29:19,516 --> 00:29:22,076 Speaker 8: we think of Jeff Buckley as this very important figure 475 00:29:22,076 --> 00:29:26,036 Speaker 8: in this big influence on Radiohead and Coldplay. But nobody 476 00:29:26,036 --> 00:29:28,996 Speaker 8: bought Grace. Nobody bought Jeff's record. When it came out, 477 00:29:29,036 --> 00:29:31,356 Speaker 8: it peaked at number one hundred and sixty on the 478 00:29:31,436 --> 00:29:33,796 Speaker 8: charts or something. It was a huge disappointment after all 479 00:29:33,796 --> 00:29:36,876 Speaker 8: the hype around him, so that didn't make it a hit. 480 00:29:37,676 --> 00:29:42,716 Speaker 1: Buckley is this incredibly handsome man, looks almost ethereal like Jesus, 481 00:29:43,396 --> 00:29:46,316 Speaker 1: with that incredible voice. But none of that is enough 482 00:29:46,396 --> 00:29:50,836 Speaker 1: until nineteen ninety seven, when something tragic happens. Buckley's in 483 00:29:50,876 --> 00:29:53,196 Speaker 1: Memphis and he goes swimming in one of the channels 484 00:29:53,236 --> 00:29:56,236 Speaker 1: of the Mississippi. He's wearing boots and all his clothing 485 00:29:56,276 --> 00:29:58,156 Speaker 1: and singing the chorus of a Whole Lot of Love 486 00:29:58,196 --> 00:30:02,836 Speaker 1: by led Zeppelin, and he vanishes, never seen again, and 487 00:30:02,876 --> 00:30:07,916 Speaker 1: that tragedy suddenly propels his work and Hollelujah into the spotlight. 488 00:30:08,436 --> 00:30:10,516 Speaker 8: And it's really kind of you know, as you hit 489 00:30:10,516 --> 00:30:13,676 Speaker 8: the new century, that's when the snowball kind of starts. 490 00:30:13,876 --> 00:30:17,116 Speaker 8: The first few covers, the first few soundtrack placements. It's 491 00:30:17,156 --> 00:30:20,076 Speaker 8: fifteen years since Leonard recorded this song. 492 00:30:28,156 --> 00:30:32,836 Speaker 1: Fifteen years and think about how many incredible twists and 493 00:30:32,876 --> 00:30:36,276 Speaker 1: turns that song takes before it gets recognized as a 494 00:30:36,276 --> 00:30:44,796 Speaker 1: work of genius. It just happens that the independent label 495 00:30:44,796 --> 00:30:48,516 Speaker 1: Passport Records releases the first version after the album It's 496 00:30:48,516 --> 00:30:52,716 Speaker 1: on is rejected by CBS Records. Then Leonard Cohen doesn't 497 00:30:52,716 --> 00:30:55,996 Speaker 1: give up, keeps tinkering and performing new versions of Hallelujah. 498 00:30:56,196 --> 00:30:59,596 Speaker 1: John Cale, one of the most influential musicians of his era, 499 00:31:00,156 --> 00:31:03,596 Speaker 1: happens to hear Cohen doing that. He revises the song 500 00:31:03,676 --> 00:31:07,276 Speaker 1: some more. Cale's version goes out on the obscure French 501 00:31:07,356 --> 00:31:10,596 Speaker 1: CD I'm a Fan, which goes now nowhere except Janine's 502 00:31:10,596 --> 00:31:14,076 Speaker 1: living room in Park Slope, and Janine happens to have 503 00:31:14,116 --> 00:31:17,156 Speaker 1: a house sitter who happens to play it happens to 504 00:31:17,276 --> 00:31:20,956 Speaker 1: like it and happens to have an ethereal amazing voice. 505 00:31:21,116 --> 00:31:25,116 Speaker 1: Buckley's version goes nowhere until he happens to die under 506 00:31:25,156 --> 00:31:29,156 Speaker 1: the most dramatic and heartbreaking of circumstances, and then finally 507 00:31:29,796 --> 00:31:32,996 Speaker 1: we recognize the genius of this song. But think about 508 00:31:33,036 --> 00:31:36,196 Speaker 1: how fragile and elusive that bit of genius is. If 509 00:31:36,236 --> 00:31:40,436 Speaker 1: any of those incredibly random things don't happen, you probably 510 00:31:40,476 --> 00:31:51,356 Speaker 1: would never have heard Hallelujah. I don't think this crazy 511 00:31:51,476 --> 00:31:56,116 Speaker 1: chain of happenstance matters so much with conceptual innovations. Paul 512 00:31:56,156 --> 00:31:59,196 Speaker 1: Simon one says, A Bridge over Troubled Water one of 513 00:31:59,196 --> 00:32:02,876 Speaker 1: the most beautiful pop songs ever written. It came so fast, 514 00:32:03,036 --> 00:32:05,436 Speaker 1: and when it was done, I said, where did that 515 00:32:05,516 --> 00:32:09,356 Speaker 1: come from? It doesn't seem like me. The song came 516 00:32:09,356 --> 00:32:13,156 Speaker 1: out perfectly. You can evaluate it right away. It doesn't 517 00:32:13,196 --> 00:32:16,676 Speaker 1: require fifteen years worth of twists and turns and random events. 518 00:32:17,156 --> 00:32:21,516 Speaker 1: The world is really good at capturing conceptual creations, or 519 00:32:21,556 --> 00:32:25,116 Speaker 1: at least we don't miss as many conceptual works because 520 00:32:25,156 --> 00:32:29,076 Speaker 1: they don't require that the stars be perfectly aligned. But 521 00:32:29,116 --> 00:32:32,476 Speaker 1: if you're Seyson and the first version you produce is 522 00:32:32,596 --> 00:32:35,796 Speaker 1: just a starting point, and you never know exactly what 523 00:32:35,876 --> 00:32:38,396 Speaker 1: you're doing or why, or whether your work is finished 524 00:32:38,516 --> 00:32:41,676 Speaker 1: or not. The stars really do have to be aligned. 525 00:32:42,996 --> 00:32:45,956 Speaker 1: Sezon was his own worst enemy in a way. He 526 00:32:46,076 --> 00:32:49,676 Speaker 1: threw up barrier after barrier. He wasn't thinking of us 527 00:32:49,716 --> 00:32:53,996 Speaker 1: when he painted his paintings. That was really John Elderfield's point. 528 00:32:54,236 --> 00:32:57,196 Speaker 1: The art of the experimental innovator is elusive. 529 00:32:58,236 --> 00:33:02,076 Speaker 7: There are some of them which now are in museums, 530 00:33:02,116 --> 00:33:05,196 Speaker 7: which we know he had tried to destroy. I mean, 531 00:33:05,316 --> 00:33:07,636 Speaker 7: and you can see in some of them the cases 532 00:33:07,676 --> 00:33:09,036 Speaker 7: of where he slashed their canvas. 533 00:33:09,196 --> 00:33:12,236 Speaker 1: Says, why would he destroy his own canvases? 534 00:33:12,356 --> 00:33:12,916 Speaker 5: You know, he. 535 00:33:13,036 --> 00:33:16,716 Speaker 7: Had certain ideas about what he wanted to do and 536 00:33:16,716 --> 00:33:19,796 Speaker 7: felt he actually never was actually getting to that point. 537 00:33:20,396 --> 00:33:23,996 Speaker 7: There are other paintings done much later where he simply 538 00:33:24,036 --> 00:33:28,036 Speaker 7: abandons them. And Picassa said that you know what actually 539 00:33:28,036 --> 00:33:34,796 Speaker 7: engages is says An's dart, his uncertainty. He's obsessive, you know, 540 00:33:34,916 --> 00:33:37,556 Speaker 7: he's absolutely just totally obsessive. 541 00:33:46,436 --> 00:33:52,196 Speaker 1: Alvis Costello Deputy in its original flawed form, it comes 542 00:33:52,196 --> 00:33:54,636 Speaker 1: out in nineteen eighty four, the same year, by the 543 00:33:54,636 --> 00:33:57,516 Speaker 1: way that halle Lujah first came out and I'm not 544 00:33:57,556 --> 00:34:00,836 Speaker 1: sure that's a coincidence, because nineteen eighty four is a 545 00:34:00,956 --> 00:34:04,476 Speaker 1: very particular moment in pop music. The biggest album of 546 00:34:04,516 --> 00:34:08,996 Speaker 1: that year was Michael Jackson's thriller Pop Music, Glass to Perfection. 547 00:34:09,676 --> 00:34:12,676 Speaker 1: There's not a single stray note or emotion on that record. 548 00:34:12,836 --> 00:34:18,916 Speaker 1: It's the antithesis of songs like Hallelujah or Deportee. Along 549 00:34:18,956 --> 00:34:21,836 Speaker 1: comes Costello. He wants to make an album in the 550 00:34:21,876 --> 00:34:25,036 Speaker 1: midst of that cultural moment, and he's not interested in 551 00:34:25,036 --> 00:34:30,076 Speaker 1: glossy perfection. His marriage is breaking up, he's having financial difficulties. 552 00:34:30,316 --> 00:34:33,836 Speaker 1: He says later that Langler and Winstanley were ill equipped 553 00:34:33,836 --> 00:34:36,596 Speaker 1: for dealing with someone of my temperament at that time. 554 00:34:36,996 --> 00:34:39,756 Speaker 1: A nurse with a large sedative syringe might have been 555 00:34:39,756 --> 00:34:45,516 Speaker 1: more appropriate. Costello writes a series of dark, emotional, bitter songs, 556 00:34:46,116 --> 00:34:49,796 Speaker 1: gritty and spare, to match his moods. Something not nineteen 557 00:34:49,836 --> 00:34:53,556 Speaker 1: eighty four. Meanwhile, Langer and Winstanley have been brought on 558 00:34:53,596 --> 00:34:56,756 Speaker 1: board to produce Hits, Polished Exquisite. 559 00:34:56,916 --> 00:35:01,396 Speaker 3: Every little bit was pondered over and thought about and 560 00:35:01,516 --> 00:35:03,836 Speaker 3: put together very carefully. I mean, you had bands like 561 00:35:03,876 --> 00:35:07,156 Speaker 3: Scritty Polity at that time. You know, spending nine months 562 00:35:07,156 --> 00:35:10,796 Speaker 3: on a song and Trevor Hall and spending four weeks 563 00:35:10,796 --> 00:35:13,276 Speaker 3: on the snare sound for Two Tribes. 564 00:35:13,716 --> 00:35:16,636 Speaker 1: Two Tribes was an album by a hugely popular band 565 00:35:16,676 --> 00:35:19,516 Speaker 1: called Frankie Goes to Hollywood and they spent a month 566 00:35:19,676 --> 00:35:21,556 Speaker 1: just getting a particular drum sound. 567 00:35:21,396 --> 00:35:24,676 Speaker 3: Right, So we weren't that Pendickette, but we were dealing 568 00:35:24,716 --> 00:35:29,516 Speaker 3: with a world that was, you know, perfection. It was 569 00:35:29,716 --> 00:35:31,156 Speaker 3: we were trying to make perfection. 570 00:35:31,676 --> 00:35:33,996 Speaker 1: You can imagine what happened when that world collides with 571 00:35:33,996 --> 00:35:35,276 Speaker 1: Alvis Costello. 572 00:35:35,156 --> 00:35:38,116 Speaker 3: And some of it just sounded like I mean, even 573 00:35:38,156 --> 00:35:41,196 Speaker 3: the band were kind of not very excited by some 574 00:35:41,276 --> 00:35:45,636 Speaker 3: of the material. So it wasn't a great experience. But 575 00:35:45,716 --> 00:35:48,556 Speaker 3: we did it very quickly. But does quickly mean in 576 00:35:48,636 --> 00:35:51,036 Speaker 3: the time it took Trevor on to get a snare 577 00:35:51,076 --> 00:35:54,716 Speaker 3: sound for Two Tribes, so it's about three or four weeks. Yeah, 578 00:35:54,716 --> 00:35:56,876 Speaker 3: the whole album. 579 00:35:56,116 --> 00:35:59,916 Speaker 1: It was a mess perfectionism in a hurry. That's how 580 00:35:59,956 --> 00:36:03,236 Speaker 1: you get to the bitter words. Congratulations, you've just bought 581 00:36:03,236 --> 00:36:08,356 Speaker 1: my worst album. Goodbye Cruel World is not good. It's unlistenable, 582 00:36:09,236 --> 00:36:12,756 Speaker 1: but it's what happens next that matters. You know, how 583 00:36:12,796 --> 00:36:15,996 Speaker 1: people always say, put your failures behind you, get on 584 00:36:16,116 --> 00:36:19,556 Speaker 1: with your life, never look back. Alvis Costello does none 585 00:36:19,596 --> 00:36:23,476 Speaker 1: of those things, because he's says on, He's not Picasso. 586 00:36:23,956 --> 00:36:26,156 Speaker 1: He carries around a little black book where he writes 587 00:36:26,276 --> 00:36:29,756 Speaker 1: draft after draft after draft of the songs he's thinking about. 588 00:36:30,196 --> 00:36:32,956 Speaker 1: He changes lines in the middle of songs he's already recorded. 589 00:36:33,516 --> 00:36:36,396 Speaker 1: He re arranges songs at different tempos or in different 590 00:36:36,436 --> 00:36:40,556 Speaker 1: time signatures. He cannibalizes his own work, creating new songs 591 00:36:40,636 --> 00:36:44,476 Speaker 1: out of old songs. And I don't know where to 592 00:36:44,516 --> 00:36:47,956 Speaker 1: start or where to stop. He doesn't want to sign 593 00:36:48,036 --> 00:36:50,436 Speaker 1: his name to the painting. And thank god there are 594 00:36:50,516 --> 00:36:53,236 Speaker 1: people like him and seys on in this world, because 595 00:36:53,236 --> 00:36:57,356 Speaker 1: without the obsessives and the perpetually dissatisfied, and the artists 596 00:36:57,396 --> 00:37:01,196 Speaker 1: who go back over and over again repainting what others 597 00:37:01,236 --> 00:37:04,156 Speaker 1: see has finished, we would never have seen the beauty 598 00:37:04,236 --> 00:37:04,956 Speaker 1: of deportee. 599 00:37:06,396 --> 00:37:11,116 Speaker 6: And you don't know where stop with? 600 00:37:11,676 --> 00:37:20,596 Speaker 5: Stop All this pillow talk is nothing, Ma, then fine 601 00:37:21,436 --> 00:37:24,316 Speaker 5: talking shop. 602 00:37:27,956 --> 00:37:32,716 Speaker 1: When you've been listening to revisionist history. If you like 603 00:37:32,796 --> 00:37:35,356 Speaker 1: what you've heard, do us a favor and rate us 604 00:37:35,356 --> 00:37:38,356 Speaker 1: on iTunes. You can get more information about this and 605 00:37:38,436 --> 00:37:42,916 Speaker 1: other episodes at revisionististory dot com or on your favorite 606 00:37:42,916 --> 00:37:47,636 Speaker 1: podcast app. Our show is produced by Mia Label, Roxanne Scott, 607 00:37:47,756 --> 00:37:51,916 Speaker 1: and Jacob Smith. Our editor is Julia Barton. Music is 608 00:37:51,916 --> 00:37:57,156 Speaker 1: composed by Luis Guerra and Taka Yasuzawa. Flon Williams is 609 00:37:57,196 --> 00:38:02,476 Speaker 1: our engineer and our fact checker is Michelle Soraka. The 610 00:38:02,476 --> 00:38:07,436 Speaker 1: Panoply management team is Laura Mayer, Andy Bauers and Jacob Weisberg. 611 00:38:08,276 --> 00:38:08,996 Speaker 1: I'm Malcolm Glad. 612 00:38:10,316 --> 00:38:13,556 Speaker 5: Party, Party,