1 00:00:02,960 --> 00:00:06,000 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:15,680 Speaker 1: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My 3 00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:18,880 Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb, and I'm Joe McCormick. And today 4 00:00:19,280 --> 00:00:23,360 Speaker 1: we wanted to kick off a series examining something I 5 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:28,320 Speaker 1: recently became interested in due to a specific historical anecdote, 6 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:30,360 Speaker 1: which we're going to get to in a maybe a 7 00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:33,800 Speaker 1: later part in this series. But we're kicking off a 8 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:38,080 Speaker 1: series on a very common belief across many human cultures 9 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:42,960 Speaker 1: throughout history, the belief that you can heal your body 10 00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:48,080 Speaker 1: or purge your sicknesses by bathing or soaking in water, 11 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:52,480 Speaker 1: especially in certain places containing special waters, but in many 12 00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:55,440 Speaker 1: cases just by bathing in waters or waters of a 13 00:00:55,480 --> 00:00:58,520 Speaker 1: certain temperature. Yeah, this is I think a great topic 14 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:02,080 Speaker 1: because it relates to something that everyone has experienced with, 15 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:07,400 Speaker 1: which is soaking in water cold or hot, the you know, 16 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:13,280 Speaker 1: the feeling of feeling restored by such practices. But then 17 00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:16,959 Speaker 1: there's it covers a lot of ground as well. We 18 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:20,600 Speaker 1: can go back in time, we can look at different views, 19 00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:26,720 Speaker 1: both scientific and superstitious, about what's exactly going on. And 20 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:30,160 Speaker 1: I think it's it's maybe worthwhile to just start off 21 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:35,360 Speaker 1: with just a little general information about bathing itself. And 22 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:37,360 Speaker 1: for this I turned to a book that I have 23 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:39,560 Speaker 1: I've had on the shelf for a long time and 24 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:42,440 Speaker 1: I occasionally turned back to. I remember I read it 25 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 1: in full when it first came out, but it was 26 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 1: from the Oxford University Press, titled Clean, A History of 27 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:51,360 Speaker 1: Personal Hygiene and Purity by Virginia Smith. I brought it up, 28 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:55,000 Speaker 1: at least in passing on the show many times because 29 00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:57,360 Speaker 1: I think one of the interesting things about this book 30 00:01:57,400 --> 00:02:01,480 Speaker 1: is that it looks just generally an overview at the 31 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 1: history in human culture of on one hand, hygiene and 32 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:09,000 Speaker 1: on the other hand, purity, and how these become intertwined, 33 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:14,800 Speaker 1: and how there's this understanding that cleaning yourself, grooming yourself, 34 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:18,080 Speaker 1: applying cosmetics and whatnot, that it is a way of 35 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:21,080 Speaker 1: in many cases it seems to be a way of 36 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:23,880 Speaker 1: inspiring some sort of health and cleanliness and hygiene. But 37 00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:25,800 Speaker 1: also we have all these other ideas that get built 38 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 1: up with it as well. Well. Yeah, bathing has a 39 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 1: lot of symbolic loading and human culture, and I would 40 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:34,240 Speaker 1: imagine that kind of thing goes way way back, especially 41 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:37,799 Speaker 1: because even outside the context of bathing, water just has 42 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:41,079 Speaker 1: a lot of symbolic loading and human culture. Yes, absolutely. 43 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:42,960 Speaker 1: Smith goes into it a lot of cut a bit 44 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:47,160 Speaker 1: in this book. So our prehistoric ancestors would have obviously 45 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 1: valued grooming, grooming being distinct somewhat from from bathing for 46 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:55,320 Speaker 1: our purposes here, but they would have groomed in the 47 00:02:55,360 --> 00:02:59,240 Speaker 1: same way that various other primate relatives do. And kind 48 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:02,680 Speaker 1: of a footnote here, Yes, there are certainly primates that 49 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:06,000 Speaker 1: engage in something a little more like bathing, setting in 50 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:07,600 Speaker 1: pools and all. We might have to come back to 51 00:03:07,639 --> 00:03:10,639 Speaker 1: that and look at those behaviors in particular. But when 52 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:15,000 Speaker 1: it comes to water, the only real requirements Smith points 53 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:18,200 Speaker 1: out for human beings is fresh drinking water. So we 54 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:20,760 Speaker 1: might swim in water, we might fish in water. There 55 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 1: are certainly other things we might do in and around water, 56 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:27,360 Speaker 1: but we don't need to actually have baths. We don't 57 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:31,320 Speaker 1: need to immerse ourselves in water. But we found water. 58 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:35,960 Speaker 1: We inevitably were curious about water, and so nomadic Neolithic 59 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 1: tribal groups inevitably discovered all kinds of natural waters, including 60 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 1: cold water springs, rivers, and lakes, and they inevitably developed 61 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:49,400 Speaker 1: ideas about their healing properties, and so these waters, there 62 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:52,720 Speaker 1: to be sources of fresh drinking water, maybe fishing waters 63 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:55,560 Speaker 1: in some cases, but you could also engage in soothing 64 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 1: and hygienic washing or immersion in these waters. And those 65 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:01,320 Speaker 1: are just the cold waters to consider. Because on top 66 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:04,720 Speaker 1: of that, then we have the naturally heated waters, hot 67 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 1: springs and so forth, which would have seemed even more 68 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:10,760 Speaker 1: miraculous if they were discovered. I mean, can you imagine 69 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:14,080 Speaker 1: if you'd never encountered hot springs before, or even if 70 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 1: you knew hot springs existed, but you could only have 71 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:20,040 Speaker 1: access to hot water like this naturally occurring, you know, 72 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 1: once a year, twice a year, depending on what your 73 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:28,680 Speaker 1: your cycle of moving around might be. And hot springs 74 00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:33,000 Speaker 1: occur around the world, and and Smith points out quote 75 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:35,440 Speaker 1: and hot springs seem to have played a significant role 76 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:39,760 Speaker 1: in human settlement patterns quote. For instance, many, if not most, 77 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:44,000 Speaker 1: of the highly decorated Upper Paleolithic sacred cave systems in 78 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:48,279 Speaker 1: the French Pyrenees and the Cantabrian Mountains of northern Spain 79 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:52,280 Speaker 1: are within walking distance of important hot spring sites, also 80 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:56,039 Speaker 1: later exploited by the Romans. That is interesting, I'd never 81 00:04:56,080 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 1: read that before. So there is a correlation between evidence 82 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:07,640 Speaker 1: of habitation by prehistoric peoples and proximity to hot springs. Yeah, 83 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:10,159 Speaker 1: and I think I've encountered this in other sources as well, 84 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:13,839 Speaker 1: making the argument that is, these people's inevitably moved around 85 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:18,640 Speaker 1: in order to survive, and you know, follow their food sources. 86 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:22,640 Speaker 1: If there was a hot spring in proximity to where 87 00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:24,480 Speaker 1: they might stay, all the better. If there's a hot 88 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:26,400 Speaker 1: spring on the way of point A to point B, 89 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:30,000 Speaker 1: all the better. Now, it's probably difficult to figure out 90 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 1: at what point immersion in these waters would have taken 91 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:38,360 Speaker 1: on cultural associations with healing or with wellness of the body, 92 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:42,200 Speaker 1: because you know, use of those sources could also just 93 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:46,960 Speaker 1: be for relaxation, for recreation, or for hygiene, right right, 94 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:48,960 Speaker 1: But then, of course, in the human mind and the 95 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:52,400 Speaker 1: human imagination, how quickly do any of those categories potentially 96 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:56,760 Speaker 1: touch on the sacred Right? When does relaxation then become meditation, 97 00:05:57,160 --> 00:06:00,960 Speaker 1: When does hygiene become purity, etc. So Smith writes that 98 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:05,599 Speaker 1: washing and bathing properly likely began during the Neolithic period 99 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:10,400 Speaker 1: and late Neolithic technology tackle the problems of water heating, storage, 100 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:13,359 Speaker 1: and draining as they took the experience of these baths 101 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:17,640 Speaker 1: out of their natural environment during stretches of greater stability, prosperity, 102 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:20,960 Speaker 1: and surplus, and so a true culture of bathing evolves, 103 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:25,360 Speaker 1: as do various ideas about the benefits of bathing. And again, 104 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:27,919 Speaker 1: this kind of runs the gamut. You can imagine it 105 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:36,800 Speaker 1: being just entirely subjective experiences, actual hygienic value, and then 106 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:40,320 Speaker 1: supernatural ideas and everything in between. Smith also points out 107 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:44,440 Speaker 1: that it connects with a very old notion that the 108 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:47,880 Speaker 1: human body is unfinished and that it is left to 109 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:53,200 Speaker 1: us to clothe, adorn, groom, and apply cosmetics in order 110 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:57,240 Speaker 1: to finish ourselves to a level that meets individual and 111 00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:00,960 Speaker 1: or cultural expectations. And this is an idea that the 112 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 1: author comes back to again and again. And on one hand, 113 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:07,039 Speaker 1: it might seem like an overstatement of the obvious, like 114 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:08,920 Speaker 1: if I'm you know you wake up in the morning, 115 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:11,560 Speaker 1: you're not fully ready, or you know you're naked, you're 116 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:14,720 Speaker 1: not fully prepared for the world. But this takes it 117 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:18,640 Speaker 1: a step a step further, considering the idea that you 118 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 1: were not finished until you have done these things, like 119 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 1: like they're sort of a base level of who you 120 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:25,840 Speaker 1: are and what a human being is, but then there 121 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:29,640 Speaker 1: has to be this cultural extension to meet this ideal 122 00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 1: or as ideal of a self as one can achieve 123 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 1: in the sort of real world. This raises a really 124 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:40,440 Speaker 1: interesting idea that I don't think I'd ever considered before, 125 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:43,400 Speaker 1: which is that in a sense, you could think of 126 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 1: bathing as a form of body modification. So in its 127 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 1: natural state, just living your life, your body is going 128 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:54,200 Speaker 1: to be covered in various substances, and you know, bits 129 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:57,480 Speaker 1: of dust and dirt from the environment, and with oils 130 00:07:57,520 --> 00:07:59,560 Speaker 1: that are naturally coming from your skin and all the 131 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:03,320 Speaker 1: other things that accumulate through living your life. By bathing 132 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:06,840 Speaker 1: and removing those things from the outer layer of your skin, 133 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:11,080 Speaker 1: you're in a way changing yourself much in the same 134 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:13,800 Speaker 1: way that somebody might be changing themselves by say, applying 135 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 1: a tattoo or anything like that. Oh absolutely, yeah, I mean, 136 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:21,560 Speaker 1: without even getting into the higher levels of tattoos and 137 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:26,200 Speaker 1: cosmetics that like, just altering your body hair changes your appearance. 138 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 1: But also, as pointed out, and we'll get to this 139 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:30,320 Speaker 1: example in a bit, like there are cases where hair 140 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:34,240 Speaker 1: removal has an impact then on the potentiality for lice, 141 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 1: So you are potentially augmenting your parasite load, which is 142 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:42,520 Speaker 1: not something you need. Bathing and any kind of hygiene 143 00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:46,720 Speaker 1: culture for obviously mere grooming in non human animals also 144 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:50,480 Speaker 1: can can do the same thing, and many other animals 145 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:53,920 Speaker 1: have some sort of a of a parasite to regulation 146 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:58,400 Speaker 1: practice in their habits. But yeah, it's fascinating to think 147 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:00,520 Speaker 1: about all of this, and I feel like you can 148 00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 1: see the basic template of healing waters in a refreshing 149 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:06,200 Speaker 1: hot shower or bath in all of this, so the 150 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:10,319 Speaker 1: experience relaxes or perks you up. It's hygienic. But there 151 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 1: is also this long human history again of associating physical 152 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:17,480 Speaker 1: hygiene with spiritual purity, and in bathing our incomplete body, 153 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:20,840 Speaker 1: we elevate it to a level at least just beyond 154 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:23,680 Speaker 1: the naturally occurring world, if not like maybe a few 155 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:26,760 Speaker 1: steps beyond the natural world, and we feel restored, we 156 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 1: feel capable of dealing with I guess life in general, 157 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:34,640 Speaker 1: if not particular obstacles. Well, yes, and when it comes 158 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:38,360 Speaker 1: specifically to hot waters. This is not based on any 159 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:41,000 Speaker 1: kind of scientific theory I'm aware of, but I just 160 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:46,079 Speaker 1: I personally have thought before that it seems to me 161 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:52,199 Speaker 1: there is a correlation between visible rising gases or visible 162 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 1: amounts of particle matter rising in the air, and spiritual 163 00:09:57,040 --> 00:10:01,680 Speaker 1: beliefs or beliefs about about sort of hidden mechanisms of power. 164 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 1: So think about how many religious rituals or beliefs about 165 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:10,040 Speaker 1: hidden mechanisms of power are associated with smoke or steam 166 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:13,160 Speaker 1: or anything else that you see rising and floating through 167 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:16,840 Speaker 1: the air. Oh yeah, absolutely, it's a short step between 168 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:20,040 Speaker 1: so many things about about bathing in hotter cold waters 169 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:24,960 Speaker 1: to get to some sort of a spiritual interpretation or 170 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:27,760 Speaker 1: some sort of tradition of sacred waters. Like I was, 171 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:29,839 Speaker 1: I was just thinking about this. You know, you get 172 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:33,280 Speaker 1: into either cold water or hotter water, warm water to 173 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:36,040 Speaker 1: hot water, and one of the things you're gonna experience 174 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:38,559 Speaker 1: is you're gonna have sort of a full body experience 175 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:41,720 Speaker 1: all of that cold or off that heat, and it's 176 00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:44,240 Speaker 1: like literally going to put you back into the experience 177 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:46,839 Speaker 1: of your body more. You know, you're gonna be You're 178 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:50,000 Speaker 1: gonna at least have a better shot at experiencing the now, 179 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:55,280 Speaker 1: just because the ambient temperature touching your entire skin is 180 00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:58,920 Speaker 1: not just air temperature. Now, one problem you're going to 181 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 1: encounter in the series, since we're talking about beliefs about 182 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 1: the healing power of immersion in water. Is that this 183 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:10,240 Speaker 1: subject has the potential to be somewhat confusing because it 184 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:16,600 Speaker 1: touches on many different related, sometimes overlapping beliefs and practices, 185 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:23,280 Speaker 1: both supernatural and natural, both ancient and modern, both outlandish 186 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:26,880 Speaker 1: and mundane. So to sort out a few common terms 187 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:30,720 Speaker 1: you might encounter in this area, especially in the use 188 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:34,240 Speaker 1: of immersion in water as it is practiced today in 189 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:39,120 Speaker 1: alternative medicine or even in standard medicine, you've got the 190 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:44,840 Speaker 1: term hydrotherapy. This is a general umbrella term that includes 191 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:48,440 Speaker 1: lots of different kinds of treatments, the unifying feature of 192 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:51,400 Speaker 1: which seems to me to be the application of water 193 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:54,720 Speaker 1: to the outside of the body. So many things that 194 00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:59,559 Speaker 1: are called hydrotherapy involved immersion in water or somehow applying 195 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:02,240 Speaker 1: water to the outside of the body, maybe by massage 196 00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:06,880 Speaker 1: or spraying of some kind. The specific term aquatic therapy 197 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:09,920 Speaker 1: seems more often, as best I can tell, to refer 198 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 1: to a type of physical therapy involving exercises you do 199 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:18,480 Speaker 1: while immersed in water. And it seems to me that 200 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:23,480 Speaker 1: hydrotherapy is again a potentially confusing term because it encompasses 201 00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:28,280 Speaker 1: so much and includes some practices which seem to me 202 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:32,640 Speaker 1: to be pretty strongly supported by empirical evidence, maybe as 203 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:36,680 Speaker 1: certain types of physical therapy involving exercises done underwater, But 204 00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:40,040 Speaker 1: it also includes all kinds of therapies that seem to 205 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:43,280 Speaker 1: me obviously not to be supported by strong evidence, and 206 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:45,679 Speaker 1: then others which are somewhere in between, maybe where the 207 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:50,760 Speaker 1: evidence is somewhat ambiguous. Yeah. In Smith's book, the author 208 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:55,080 Speaker 1: points out that the term hydrotherapy is usually linked to 209 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:59,680 Speaker 1: eighteenth and nineteenth century European health trends, but then these 210 00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:02,559 Speaker 1: trends go in and out of fad even into more 211 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:06,120 Speaker 1: modern times. So if you're seeing it used in like 212 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:09,920 Speaker 1: literature for some sort of health or wellness business, they're 213 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:12,360 Speaker 1: probably not using it in the eighteenth or nineteenth century 214 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:15,800 Speaker 1: a sense of it, but they may it still be 215 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:18,439 Speaker 1: maybe part of that fad. There may be some similar 216 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:21,079 Speaker 1: ideas that are tied up in it. Yes. Now there 217 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:24,400 Speaker 1: are also much more specific terms, such as the term 218 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:29,679 Speaker 1: balneotherapy b al in the O balneotherapy, which is specifically 219 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:33,840 Speaker 1: the treatment of disease by bathing or soaking, often in 220 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:38,760 Speaker 1: specific types or sources of water, such as mineral springs. Yeah, 221 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:42,200 Speaker 1: and Smith dates balneology back at at least to the 222 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:45,839 Speaker 1: ancient Greeks. It's something that's like documented by Homer, but 223 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:49,160 Speaker 1: it was likely centuries old by that point, even influenced 224 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:52,040 Speaker 1: by various cultures. Yeah, and then you've got other things 225 00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:55,800 Speaker 1: like a thalassotherapy. This is treatment of disease with seawater. 226 00:13:56,679 --> 00:13:58,839 Speaker 1: This is something that apparently plenty of the Elder was 227 00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:00,520 Speaker 1: a fan of. We'll get to that a little bit 228 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:02,640 Speaker 1: later in this episode, but you know, plenty of the 229 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:05,079 Speaker 1: elder was like, there is nothing better for health than 230 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:08,360 Speaker 1: salt from seawater and sun. Did we We did an 231 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:12,360 Speaker 1: older episode about drinking seawater, didn't weigh and we touched 232 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:16,600 Speaker 1: us some of these these fats basically, don't don't actually 233 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:18,600 Speaker 1: do it. Don't go drink a bunch of seawater because 234 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:30,840 Speaker 1: you heard it casually mentioned, right, thank so. In the series, 235 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:34,360 Speaker 1: even though we will inevitably brush up against related topics, 236 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:38,200 Speaker 1: we're going to try to focus mainly on various bal 237 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:43,400 Speaker 1: neotherapeutic beliefs and legends, beliefs about the healing powers of 238 00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:47,200 Speaker 1: soaking or bathing, and especially the belief that there are 239 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:51,400 Speaker 1: specific places with waters that heal when you bathe or 240 00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:54,480 Speaker 1: soak in them. And beyond exploring these legends themselves, I'm 241 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:57,840 Speaker 1: interested in the question, are there any cases where there's 242 00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:01,760 Speaker 1: empirical evidence that's soaking or bathing can actually have a 243 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:06,800 Speaker 1: healing effect, and if so, how does that work? All right, 244 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:09,840 Speaker 1: let's get into ancient myths and legends a little bit 245 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:12,000 Speaker 1: here to sort of lay some of the crown work. 246 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:14,640 Speaker 1: It's kind of an interesting place to look at in 247 00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:16,800 Speaker 1: times where the history sort of breaks down and look 248 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:20,680 Speaker 1: at some sort of general ideas about where some of 249 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:24,800 Speaker 1: these ideas came from and their importance to especially to 250 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:29,360 Speaker 1: ancient peoples. So, just concerning Greek myth, Smith points out 251 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:32,640 Speaker 1: to the gods Apollo and Artemis were closely associated with 252 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:36,520 Speaker 1: sacred cold springs. But then to me anyway, a kind 253 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:40,520 Speaker 1: of unexpected figure emerges as kind of a hot spring 254 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:46,040 Speaker 1: and hydraulics technology. Hero I was not expecting to think 255 00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:50,600 Speaker 1: about Hercules or Heracles in this regard. Oh, Heracles is 256 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:53,720 Speaker 1: kind of a hot spring mascot in some cases, yeah, 257 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:57,320 Speaker 1: hot springs, but also just like harnessing the power of water, 258 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:01,600 Speaker 1: So he is a sociated with the invention of hot 259 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:05,200 Speaker 1: springs and Greek tradition this is after he was thrown 260 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:08,320 Speaker 1: into the pool at Thermopoli and regained his strength following 261 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:13,400 Speaker 1: the completion of his labors. Strong association here between virility 262 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:17,720 Speaker 1: and hot springs. Apparently, these hot sulfur springs in particular 263 00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:21,320 Speaker 1: were also considered a gateway to the realm of Hades. Now, 264 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:24,880 Speaker 1: as for other myths about Heracles and water, I mean, 265 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:26,760 Speaker 1: I think the one that should come to everyone's mind, 266 00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:28,400 Speaker 1: in part because we talked about it in Weird Alt 267 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:30,440 Speaker 1: Cinema if you listen to our Weird Alt Cinema episodes, 268 00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:34,880 Speaker 1: is the cleaning of the Gigean stables, the foulest stables 269 00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:38,600 Speaker 1: and all the land. This is one of the challenges 270 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:41,280 Speaker 1: that Hercules had to deal with. This was of course, 271 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:44,200 Speaker 1: as one of his labors. And how does he clean 272 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:47,080 Speaker 1: them out? Well, he just redirects a river through them. 273 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:51,000 Speaker 1: That's smart thinking. Yeah, it's interesting because I never really 274 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:52,560 Speaker 1: thought about it too much. I just figured, well, this 275 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:54,000 Speaker 1: is the kind of thing that a very strong but 276 00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:58,200 Speaker 1: a very clever hero would do. Right. But yeah, you 277 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:02,480 Speaker 1: think about redirecting rivers and all you're getting into like 278 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:09,200 Speaker 1: the work of canals, and ultimately hydraulic technology. Though, actually, 279 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:11,240 Speaker 1: when you think about it, I mean, if you've ever 280 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:14,240 Speaker 1: observed what happens when floodwaters go through a building, they 281 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:17,920 Speaker 1: do not actually clean it out. They make it quite filthy, 282 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:21,960 Speaker 1: right right. But nowadays, if you're cleaning out stables, you're 283 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:26,840 Speaker 1: probably using redirected water one way or another in the process. 284 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:29,600 Speaker 1: Even if you're not just absolutely hosing everything out, you know, 285 00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:33,280 Speaker 1: you're having to use other tools, etc. Now Heracles slash 286 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 1: Hercules also has some other encounters with various river gods 287 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 1: and certainly water entities. But the other big one from 288 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:43,800 Speaker 1: the labors is the slaying of the Hydra, which was 289 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:47,680 Speaker 1: a water monster, and so this connection is not lost 290 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:51,240 Speaker 1: on other scholars that ran across the paper titled Heracles 291 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:54,639 Speaker 1: and Hydraulics by J. V. Loose from two thousand and six, 292 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:57,080 Speaker 1: And this paper points out that both the stables and 293 00:17:57,080 --> 00:18:01,199 Speaker 1: the Hydra are essentially hydraulic labors, and the author contends 294 00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:05,000 Speaker 1: that there is a connection here between Heracles and late 295 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:09,760 Speaker 1: Heltic water technology and water management. So it's almost like 296 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:12,080 Speaker 1: we could think of him as the kind of the 297 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:17,160 Speaker 1: kind of like an ancient Greek saint of water technology. Wow, 298 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:19,480 Speaker 1: they're seeing Hercules in a whole new ways, the King 299 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:22,320 Speaker 1: of Wet. Yeah. Anyway, going back to Smith, though, you 300 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:24,679 Speaker 1: have you also just have to realize you have various 301 00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:28,280 Speaker 1: ancient cultures that prize both naturally occurring hot and cold 302 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:32,440 Speaker 1: springs and or the utilization and development of technologies to 303 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:37,119 Speaker 1: artificially recreate these experiences in the home or in you know, 304 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:39,679 Speaker 1: some homes or adjacent to the home, or in some 305 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:43,680 Speaker 1: sort of communal setting. And you know, I would I 306 00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:46,080 Speaker 1: would refer back to some of our invention episodes that 307 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:51,440 Speaker 1: deal with various hydraulic technologies and plumbing and so forth, 308 00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:56,760 Speaker 1: and inevitably if you would probably be surprised at just 309 00:18:56,920 --> 00:19:00,439 Speaker 1: how far back some examples of these technologies really go. 310 00:19:01,119 --> 00:19:05,040 Speaker 1: Smith also shares a couple of great examples in the 311 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:09,480 Speaker 1: book related to divine baths of the ancient worlds. So 312 00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:12,720 Speaker 1: these again are not we're not necessarily talking talking about 313 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:15,359 Speaker 1: naturally occurring waters here. We're talking about some sort of 314 00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:18,160 Speaker 1: prepared water, or in some cases there's not even something 315 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:21,440 Speaker 1: in the real world. It's just again purely getting into 316 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:25,720 Speaker 1: religion and mythology. But first of all, in ancient Egypt, 317 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:30,080 Speaker 1: ancient Egyptian priests who along with keeping their bodies shaved, 318 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:33,200 Speaker 1: and this had to do with lies apparently, and oiled. 319 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:37,080 Speaker 1: Also bathed in cold water twice each day and twice 320 00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:40,800 Speaker 1: each night to help maintain this kind of ideal higher 321 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:44,640 Speaker 1: body that befit one in contact with the divine. If 322 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:48,200 Speaker 1: you're more familiar with Bible traditions, those also include various 323 00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:52,840 Speaker 1: kinds of ritual bathing in preparation for say, entrance into 324 00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:56,120 Speaker 1: the temple or something like that. Yeah. Yeah, people are 325 00:19:56,119 --> 00:19:59,159 Speaker 1: always having baths or getting their feet cleaned by Jesus 326 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:01,680 Speaker 1: that It's just there's a lot of it, and there's 327 00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:04,080 Speaker 1: so many examples from so many cultures, you know, because again, 328 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:08,399 Speaker 1: these ideas of hygiene and purity becomes so wound up 329 00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:11,320 Speaker 1: with each other. Now, the pharaoh himself didn't have to 330 00:20:11,359 --> 00:20:14,240 Speaker 1: go through all this was not taken necessarily two cold 331 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:17,600 Speaker 1: baths a day and two at night, but still certainly 332 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:21,359 Speaker 1: had an extremely high standard of personal grooming and was 333 00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:25,080 Speaker 1: purified via some sort of a bathing ritual at birth, 334 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:29,080 Speaker 1: at death, and then in the afterlife as well, according 335 00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:32,760 Speaker 1: to their beliefs. So Smith writes that in the afterlife 336 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:36,120 Speaker 1: it was said that he would be bathed, fumigated, shaved 337 00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 1: and oiled by the goddess Nut. I believe Smith doesn't 338 00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:43,560 Speaker 1: specify the goddess, but I believe it's Nut in this case, 339 00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:48,160 Speaker 1: and this would not only clean but revive him. Quote 340 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:51,600 Speaker 1: he received his bones of metal and stretched out his 341 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:58,440 Speaker 1: indestructible limbs. His body came together and was entirely refashioned. WHOA, 342 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:01,480 Speaker 1: So that's that's a heck of a bath, like physically 343 00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:06,159 Speaker 1: reassembles your body into some sort of unbreakable form for 344 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:09,399 Speaker 1: the afterlife. And you have plenty of other examples of this, 345 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:12,320 Speaker 1: but just one in passing here. Homer has a whole 346 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:16,160 Speaker 1: bit in the Iliad describing the goddess Hera cleaning herself, 347 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:20,760 Speaker 1: putting on cosmetics. So even the gods in some traditions 348 00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:24,119 Speaker 1: have to strive to achieve the finnished body, just like 349 00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:26,920 Speaker 1: mortals do. I guess they have a better starting place, 350 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 1: but they still have to do things to reach this 351 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:35,159 Speaker 1: ideal level of godhood. Yeah, And speaking of Homer and 352 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:39,760 Speaker 1: the Iliad, this brings us to the role of bathing, 353 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:44,720 Speaker 1: and especially medicinal bathing in Greek and Roman culture, which, 354 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:47,680 Speaker 1: though by no means the only culture is to employ 355 00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 1: these practices, we're lucky to have a lot of sources 356 00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:55,159 Speaker 1: on so I wanted to turn to a paper called 357 00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:58,199 Speaker 1: Water and Spas in the Classical World, published in the 358 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:02,080 Speaker 1: journal Medical History in nineteen ninety by an author named 359 00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:04,520 Speaker 1: Ralph Jackson. I looked him up. Jackson was a scholar 360 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:07,879 Speaker 1: working at the time for the Department of Prehistoric and 361 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:11,960 Speaker 1: Romano British Antiquities at the British Museum, and it might 362 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:14,280 Speaker 1: not come as a surprise to listeners here that one 363 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:16,879 Speaker 1: major source consulted on this matter is Plenty of the 364 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:21,000 Speaker 1: Elder in his Natural History, who in book thirty one writes, 365 00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:26,040 Speaker 1: quote everywhere in many lands gush fourth beneficent waters here cold, 366 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:30,520 Speaker 1: they're hot. They're both in some places tepid and lukewarm, 367 00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:34,640 Speaker 1: promising relief to the sick. And so Jackson writes that 368 00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:37,960 Speaker 1: in the first century CE, the time of Plenty's writing, 369 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:43,080 Speaker 1: the Roman Empire had many spas, which they called aqui, 370 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:46,719 Speaker 1: and there at the time this paper was published, there 371 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:51,200 Speaker 1: was thought to be written evidence of references to roughly 372 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:55,440 Speaker 1: one hundred or so unique spa locations, places usually fed 373 00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:58,159 Speaker 1: by natural springs. Many of these, at the time of 374 00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:01,840 Speaker 1: writing had not been physically located or excavated by by 375 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:05,920 Speaker 1: modern scholars. At some Roman spa locations, we know where 376 00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:08,240 Speaker 1: they are, though it seems the springs have run dry 377 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:12,760 Speaker 1: at other places. There's basically been continuous usage since ancient times, 378 00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:16,000 Speaker 1: I believe Smith, and this was a book from two 379 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:18,320 Speaker 1: thousand and seven, so I'm not sure where the where 380 00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:22,240 Speaker 1: the account still stands, but Smith writes that some four 381 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:26,800 Speaker 1: hundred major bath sites from the from out the area 382 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:30,000 Speaker 1: outside of Rome had been found, but still more, of 383 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:34,439 Speaker 1: course we're completely unearthed. So going into Jackson's overview of 384 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:37,960 Speaker 1: the Greek and Roman medicinal uses of water, he writes 385 00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:40,760 Speaker 1: that if you go farthest back in Greek history to 386 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:43,760 Speaker 1: like the home Eric period, which is literary period from 387 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 1: before the classical Greek period, bathing facilities were mainly associated 388 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:51,920 Speaker 1: at this point with just hygiene and comfort. So if 389 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:54,639 Speaker 1: you're a rich person, an important part of being a 390 00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:59,080 Speaker 1: good host is providing bath waters for your guests. But 391 00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:02,560 Speaker 1: by the time time of the ancient Greek physician Hippocrates, 392 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:06,040 Speaker 1: like the fifth to the fourth century BC, it seems 393 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:09,680 Speaker 1: bathing had come to signify more than just cleanliness and comfort. 394 00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:14,000 Speaker 1: Bathing was part of medicine, and so many Greeks of 395 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:17,280 Speaker 1: this period saw bathing, specifically the use of hot and 396 00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:22,360 Speaker 1: cold bathwater as a way to regulate the bodily humors. 397 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:25,600 Speaker 1: Now we've gone into a lot more detail on humoral 398 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:29,080 Speaker 1: theory in the past in other episodes, but in very 399 00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:33,960 Speaker 1: short order, Humorism is an obsolete medical theory that traced 400 00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:38,159 Speaker 1: to health and disease to the balance or proportion of 401 00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:43,080 Speaker 1: four fluids also known as humors within the body. Yeah, 402 00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:48,200 Speaker 1: black bile, yellow bile, blood, and phlegm. This was thought 403 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:52,600 Speaker 1: to explain a range of facts about a person and 404 00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:55,520 Speaker 1: interesting note, there are still artifacts of this way of 405 00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:58,960 Speaker 1: thinking in our language today. So when you maybe describe 406 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:03,359 Speaker 1: a person's temperament as sanguine or as phlegmatic, you are 407 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:09,680 Speaker 1: referring to flim and blood blood the sanguine fluid these. 408 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:13,200 Speaker 1: This is based on the humor theory of personality. So 409 00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:16,640 Speaker 1: under the system, your personality or your current mood could 410 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:20,719 Speaker 1: be explained by humoral equilibrium. Maybe your depression is a 411 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:25,119 Speaker 1: result of too much black bile, etc. But diseases of 412 00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:28,800 Speaker 1: the body somatic diseases could also be explained by an 413 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:32,480 Speaker 1: imbalance of these four fluids, and the four humors were 414 00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:36,679 Speaker 1: each associated with various states of hot or cold and 415 00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 1: wet or dry. So, for example, yellow bile was hot 416 00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:45,280 Speaker 1: and dry, blood was hot and wet, black bile was 417 00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:49,080 Speaker 1: cold and dry, and flegm was cold and wet. And 418 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:53,440 Speaker 1: according to some ancient Greek physicians like Hippocrates, one way 419 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:56,920 Speaker 1: to help regulate your humorl balance would be to heat 420 00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:00,520 Speaker 1: the body, cool the body, moisten it, or dry it. Yeah, 421 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:03,080 Speaker 1: and even today you go to any kind of like 422 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:07,040 Speaker 1: robust spa situation, you have various means at your disposal 423 00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:11,119 Speaker 1: to tinker with those settings, right, yeah, yeah, you can 424 00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:15,199 Speaker 1: tweak the knobs. Now. While the humoral framework may have 425 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:19,399 Speaker 1: occasionally produced apparent healings or apparently good results, we know 426 00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:22,200 Speaker 1: today these probably would have been due to placebo effect 427 00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:26,320 Speaker 1: or maybe in some cases just happy accidents. Humoral theory 428 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:31,120 Speaker 1: has no general factual basis. But this did not stop 429 00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:35,879 Speaker 1: bathing from becoming and remaining an extremely popular treatment for 430 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:39,400 Speaker 1: disease and ill health for centuries all throughout the classical 431 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:43,720 Speaker 1: Greek and Roman regions. Why would this be well? Jackson 432 00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:46,960 Speaker 1: offers an observation that this is not proof of exactly 433 00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:50,080 Speaker 1: why it worked this way, But Jackson writes quote, baths 434 00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:53,800 Speaker 1: were both pleasant and by the Roman Imperial period at 435 00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:58,760 Speaker 1: least comparatively freely available. So they were just pleasant. They're 436 00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:02,240 Speaker 1: just nice, They felt good, and you could easily get 437 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:04,680 Speaker 1: to a bath. These are a couple of features shared 438 00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:08,639 Speaker 1: by not all, but many popular alternative medical treatments to 439 00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:11,000 Speaker 1: this day. You might notice like there may be no 440 00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:15,399 Speaker 1: real evidence that this essential oil has a direct mechanism 441 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:18,680 Speaker 1: of action against I don't know what you're arthritis, but 442 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:22,280 Speaker 1: it's relatively cheap to get, it's easy to get, and 443 00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:25,000 Speaker 1: it smells nice, which makes you feel good, so you 444 00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:27,480 Speaker 1: know that it's not hard to see why it would 445 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:30,600 Speaker 1: be a popular treatment. It also feels I think we've 446 00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:33,000 Speaker 1: talked about this before. It also checks off that box 447 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:36,760 Speaker 1: of something is happening, like a really strong smelling oil, 448 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:40,640 Speaker 1: or certainly just a very hot shower very or even 449 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:43,280 Speaker 1: just a very cold shower, etc. Like it. There's a 450 00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:47,040 Speaker 1: certain shock to the system that occurs that that you 451 00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:50,479 Speaker 1: if you lean into any kind of expectation, well then 452 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:53,760 Speaker 1: there you have it. There is that surely the effect observed. Yeah, 453 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:57,360 Speaker 1: it makes you feel something different or sense something different, 454 00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:00,600 Speaker 1: which helps create the feeling that something is happening. In 455 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:12,720 Speaker 1: your body. Yeah. So, the ancient Greeks and Romans had 456 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:15,520 Speaker 1: a number of different beliefs about the medicinal and therapeutic 457 00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:18,119 Speaker 1: uses of baths. But just to cite a few examples 458 00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:21,480 Speaker 1: featured in this paper, warm water was often believed to 459 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:25,320 Speaker 1: help with the absorption of nutrients from food because it 460 00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:29,520 Speaker 1: quote softened the bather's body. I don't know why I 461 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:32,200 Speaker 1: found this image so funny, but I did. I was 462 00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:34,000 Speaker 1: trying to think, why would you think of it that way, 463 00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:38,920 Speaker 1: softening the body to absorb nutrients better? And I wondered, 464 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:42,440 Speaker 1: maybe this is similar to observing something from food like 465 00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:47,360 Speaker 1: that kind of warm concoctions or warm doughs tend to 466 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:53,120 Speaker 1: emulsify and absorb ingredients more easily. I don't know. Yeah, yeah, 467 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:55,760 Speaker 1: just speculating there. Then again, I don't know how cold 468 00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:58,280 Speaker 1: their dough in ancient Rome would ever get. I mean, 469 00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:00,760 Speaker 1: they didn't have refrigerators. Well, if you're if you're in 470 00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:03,160 Speaker 1: water long enough, of course you do get you get 471 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:05,600 Speaker 1: kind of wrinkly, right, Yeah, you could maybe be seen 472 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:08,120 Speaker 1: as a softening of the skin. Yeah. But also hot 473 00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:12,280 Speaker 1: water baths were thought to treat symptoms from pneumonia, including 474 00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:16,960 Speaker 1: back in chest pain, to treat fatigue, headaches, and trouble 475 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:22,840 Speaker 1: with urination, to encourage urination. But in Roman times, public 476 00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:29,000 Speaker 1: baths were also important and complex community facilities. I think 477 00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:32,200 Speaker 1: it's very important to understand the like the many different 478 00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:35,880 Speaker 1: roles they combined, and how important they were for a 479 00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:42,760 Speaker 1: local community. Their function was at once hygienic, social, recreational, 480 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:46,760 Speaker 1: and medicinal. So according to Jackson, for example, you know 481 00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:49,200 Speaker 1: you might go to the baths for hygiene and grooming. 482 00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:51,320 Speaker 1: So you're going to go there to wash your body. 483 00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:53,320 Speaker 1: Of course, you can bathe in the water, but you 484 00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:56,320 Speaker 1: can also get your skin scraped. They had these instruments 485 00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,080 Speaker 1: called strigeles where they'd like kind of it wouldn't be 486 00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:01,800 Speaker 1: exactly shaving, but kind of scraping you down with a 487 00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:04,280 Speaker 1: blade to get like oil and dirt off your skin, 488 00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:07,440 Speaker 1: and then they would, you know, maybe apply a new 489 00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:10,040 Speaker 1: perfumed oil to you. You could also get your hair 490 00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:13,160 Speaker 1: taken care of. You can get unwanted hair removed. You 491 00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:16,560 Speaker 1: might also go to this bath for exercise, so in 492 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:19,040 Speaker 1: a way be kind of like a gym. You also 493 00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:21,320 Speaker 1: go there to hang out and socialize with friends. You 494 00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:24,960 Speaker 1: could get a massage, or you could treat your diseases 495 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:28,560 Speaker 1: or get advice about diet or health. So it combines 496 00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:30,920 Speaker 1: all these different things. It's got elements of a gym, 497 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:34,760 Speaker 1: a barber shop, like a ymca with a pool and 498 00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:39,760 Speaker 1: hot tubs. It's got a hospital or a clinic, and 499 00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:44,160 Speaker 1: a public bathing facility just all together into one. Yeah, 500 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:47,080 Speaker 1: for many people it becomes just a center of their 501 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:50,520 Speaker 1: social life. I remember we did an Invention episode about 502 00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:54,560 Speaker 1: the invention of toilets, and one of the really funny 503 00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:58,360 Speaker 1: things was the Roman facilities that had apparently just like 504 00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:02,040 Speaker 1: social toilets where people go, you know, sit on a latrine, 505 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:04,640 Speaker 1: but it's just a row of them all in the line, 506 00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:07,000 Speaker 1: where people would just hang out, I guess, and chat 507 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:11,880 Speaker 1: while they're pooping. You know. I um, this is I 508 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:13,680 Speaker 1: have nothing to back this up at, but I do 509 00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:17,160 Speaker 1: wonder like maybe they had curtains and the curtains didn't survive, 510 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:20,400 Speaker 1: Like what would what would people make of a bathroom 511 00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:22,680 Speaker 1: today where the stalls had been removed and they were like, 512 00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:24,360 Speaker 1: they might think, we'll look at this. They just had 513 00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:26,240 Speaker 1: one toilet next to another. They just walk in and 514 00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:29,000 Speaker 1: there are the toilets. Oh maybe I don't know, but 515 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:31,680 Speaker 1: I mean probably probably not, probably not, But there are 516 00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:36,520 Speaker 1: also many specific examples of ancient authors prescribing hot or 517 00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:42,480 Speaker 1: cold baths for different medical complaints. So one figure talked 518 00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:45,840 Speaker 1: about in this paper is named Esclepiadis, who was an 519 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:49,960 Speaker 1: ancient Greek physician who worked in Rome and lived from 520 00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:54,280 Speaker 1: like the one twenties BCD about forty BC. And Esclepiadis 521 00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:57,360 Speaker 1: advised the use of baths as a treatment for the 522 00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:00,400 Speaker 1: sick and preventative medicine for the healthy. And though it 523 00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:04,360 Speaker 1: seems prescriptions for hot water baths were generally more common 524 00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:09,080 Speaker 1: at the time, a Sclepiadis was known for advising cold water, 525 00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:11,800 Speaker 1: which led plenty of the elder to refer to him 526 00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:15,760 Speaker 1: with the nickname the cold water Giver. One of his 527 00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:19,440 Speaker 1: followers Antonius Musa, so this is a guy who came 528 00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:22,920 Speaker 1: up in the school of a. Sclepiadis. Even famously treated 529 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:26,160 Speaker 1: the Emperor Caesar Augustus with cold baths, and this is 530 00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:31,600 Speaker 1: chronicled in Suetonius's biography Life of Augustus, in which he writes, 531 00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:34,320 Speaker 1: and this is a translation by J. C. Rolfe quote, 532 00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:36,760 Speaker 1: in the course of his life he suffered from several 533 00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:42,160 Speaker 1: severe and dangerous illnesses, especially after the subjugation of Cantabria, 534 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:45,360 Speaker 1: when he was in such a desperate plight from abscesses 535 00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:47,800 Speaker 1: of the liver that he was forced to submit to 536 00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:52,720 Speaker 1: an unprecedented and hazardous course of treatment. Since hot fomentations 537 00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:55,440 Speaker 1: gave him no relief, he was led by the advice 538 00:32:55,480 --> 00:33:00,440 Speaker 1: of his physician Antonius Mussa to try cold ones. So 539 00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:03,520 Speaker 1: it's getting cold baths for abscesses of the liver, and 540 00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:06,479 Speaker 1: the use of this treatment by the emperor led to 541 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:10,120 Speaker 1: fame and riches for Antonius Musa and led the cold 542 00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:14,400 Speaker 1: water treatment to become somewhat fashionable. In fact, this is 543 00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:16,960 Speaker 1: another thing I think we can see patterns of today's 544 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:20,840 Speaker 1: you know, like a one celebrity gets some particular type 545 00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:23,680 Speaker 1: of surgery or does some kind of health trend or something, 546 00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:25,720 Speaker 1: and it becomes fashionable, a bunch of other people want 547 00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:27,479 Speaker 1: to pick up on it. And in the case of 548 00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:30,400 Speaker 1: cold baths for the liver, some practitioners at the time 549 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:33,160 Speaker 1: even advise patients to bathe in cold water during the 550 00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:36,000 Speaker 1: depths of winter. So they took it seriously. Oh we 551 00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:39,000 Speaker 1: On the other hand, you had the Roman physician Kelsis. 552 00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:44,120 Speaker 1: I think sometimes maybe pronounce celsus celsus, but I think 553 00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:47,480 Speaker 1: those romans cs are supposed to be a hard case sounds, 554 00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:50,680 Speaker 1: so I'm going to say Kelsis recommended baths is a 555 00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:56,760 Speaker 1: treatment for quote skin complaints, diseases of sinews, gout wounds, 556 00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:02,400 Speaker 1: digestive disorders, wasting diseases, eye diseases, and fevers, as well 557 00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:06,560 Speaker 1: as in convalescence after surgery. And Kelsis here did not 558 00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:09,920 Speaker 1: agree with the Sclepiades and Musa on cold baths for 559 00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:13,560 Speaker 1: abscesses of the liver. Kelsis recommended hot baths and said 560 00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:17,040 Speaker 1: quote all cold things must be especially avoided. So you 561 00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:21,120 Speaker 1: get different schools of thought. There's also an ancient school 562 00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:24,040 Speaker 1: of medicine at this time known as the Methodists, and 563 00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:26,480 Speaker 1: this might be obvious, but no relation at all to 564 00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:29,960 Speaker 1: the Christian denomination. They were just called Methodists. They were 565 00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:33,879 Speaker 1: named after their supposed adherence to the method. They were 566 00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:38,160 Speaker 1: fond of recommending baths and mineral springs, not just for 567 00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:42,640 Speaker 1: immersion but also for drinking. And the Methodist idea of 568 00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:45,520 Speaker 1: physiology seems a little hard to understand. I wasn't familiar 569 00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:47,560 Speaker 1: with it before I was reading and trying to put 570 00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:51,080 Speaker 1: it together. Jackson explains it by saying that they classified 571 00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:55,000 Speaker 1: diseases into either acute or chronic, so to an extent 572 00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:58,040 Speaker 1: we still do that today, but that they saw the 573 00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:04,160 Speaker 1: cause of disease as stemming from either excessive constriction or 574 00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:08,440 Speaker 1: excessive relaxation, and that baths could be used to treat 575 00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:13,320 Speaker 1: these states. So, for example, the Methodist physician named Sournus 576 00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:16,120 Speaker 1: of Ephesus, who lived from the first to the second 577 00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:20,360 Speaker 1: century CE, thought baths were an important treatment for inducing 578 00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:25,000 Speaker 1: relaxation and patients whose diseases were caused by too much constriction, 579 00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:27,759 Speaker 1: and he also advised the use of hot baths for 580 00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:30,799 Speaker 1: women in later stages of pregnancy. Now, most of what 581 00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:33,600 Speaker 1: I've been talking about up to this point has been 582 00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:37,640 Speaker 1: focused on ancient Greek and Roman beliefs about the medicinal 583 00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:41,200 Speaker 1: or therapeutic uses of hot or cold baths in general, 584 00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:45,279 Speaker 1: but there were also beliefs about the special healing properties 585 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:50,439 Speaker 1: of specific waters the sites often called spas, such as 586 00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:55,120 Speaker 1: sulfur springs, alum springs, bitumen springs, alkaline and acid springs, 587 00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:58,360 Speaker 1: as well as of seawater, which, as I mentioned earlier, 588 00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:01,800 Speaker 1: plenty endorsed as being you know, there's nothing more beneficial 589 00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:04,239 Speaker 1: for the body than salt. And I think we're going 590 00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:06,759 Speaker 1: to come back to more thoughts about these specific water 591 00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:10,440 Speaker 1: sources and their associated spas in the next episode or 592 00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:12,879 Speaker 1: later in the series. But I couldn't leave it off 593 00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:16,200 Speaker 1: here without a taste of a brief reading from Plenty 594 00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:18,920 Speaker 1: of the Elder in the Natural History book thirty one, 595 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:21,879 Speaker 1: about people who take it a little too far, who 596 00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:25,120 Speaker 1: get a little too excited about the alleged healing powers 597 00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:28,200 Speaker 1: of the spa. So are you ready for this, yes, 598 00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:33,120 Speaker 1: Plenty rights. Sulfur waters, however, are good for the sinews, 599 00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:37,880 Speaker 1: alum waters for paralysis and similar cases of collapse. Waters 600 00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:41,839 Speaker 1: containing bitumen and soda, such as those of Cutilia, are 601 00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:45,399 Speaker 1: good for drinking and as a purge. Many people make 602 00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:48,719 Speaker 1: a matter of boasting the great number of hours they 603 00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:51,960 Speaker 1: can endure the heat of these sulfur waters, a very 604 00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:55,440 Speaker 1: injurious practice, for one should remain in them a little 605 00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:59,240 Speaker 1: longer than in the bath afterwards, rents in cool fresh water, 606 00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:02,279 Speaker 1: and not go away without a rubbing of oil. The 607 00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:05,880 Speaker 1: common people find these details irksome, and so there is 608 00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:09,439 Speaker 1: no greater risk to health than this treatment. Because an 609 00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:13,200 Speaker 1: overpowering smell goes to the head, which sweats and is 610 00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:16,360 Speaker 1: seized with chill, while the rest of the body is immersed. 611 00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:19,640 Speaker 1: Those make a like mistake who boast of the great 612 00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:23,960 Speaker 1: quantity they can drink. I have seen some already swollen 613 00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:27,759 Speaker 1: with drinking to such an extent that their rings were 614 00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:31,840 Speaker 1: covered by skin since they could not avoid the vast 615 00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:35,160 Speaker 1: amount of water they had swallowed. So it is not 616 00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:37,680 Speaker 1: good to drink these waters without a frequent taste of salt. 617 00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:42,120 Speaker 1: It's back on the salt again, said, that's the problem 618 00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:44,920 Speaker 1: people go into the spa that they're like, they sit 619 00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:47,520 Speaker 1: in the sulfur water too long, it goes to their head. 620 00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:49,680 Speaker 1: But then they're also like, I'm gonna drink all this 621 00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:52,719 Speaker 1: spa water. I'm gonna drink so much that you won't 622 00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:55,399 Speaker 1: be able to see my jewelry anymore. My rings will 623 00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:59,600 Speaker 1: disappear between swollen skin and the problem I didn't get 624 00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:02,719 Speaker 1: some salt in between. That's the problem. I mean, I 625 00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:05,200 Speaker 1: love this because also there is some sound advice here. 626 00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:09,319 Speaker 1: I mean, obviously, if you drink too much water that 627 00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:12,160 Speaker 1: can hurt you. And also if you stay in some 628 00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:15,240 Speaker 1: sort of a hot tub or a sauna or steam 629 00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:20,680 Speaker 1: room situation longer than advised. You can also run up 630 00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:25,799 Speaker 1: against some ill consequences. So you know, at heart there's 631 00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:28,800 Speaker 1: some good advice here and just not necessarily a modern 632 00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:31,920 Speaker 1: understanding of exactly what the risks are. No, I totally agree. 633 00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:35,440 Speaker 1: Actually plenty is giving sound advice. That is right, my 634 00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:38,600 Speaker 1: sound advice. And this is why MCA advice is, don't 635 00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:42,440 Speaker 1: get into a conversation with a talkative old fella in 636 00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:46,319 Speaker 1: the sauna, because that guy, no matter how nice he is, 637 00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:52,239 Speaker 1: he can inevitably sustain enhanced temperatures for far longer than 638 00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:56,319 Speaker 1: you can, and it will be harder and harder to 639 00:38:56,360 --> 00:38:59,680 Speaker 1: tear yourself away as you become overheated, and while trying 640 00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:03,360 Speaker 1: to main polite and nodding your head to their stories. 641 00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:07,160 Speaker 1: That is also sage advice, if I may say, Pliny 642 00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:10,360 Speaker 1: and caliber. But like I said, we'll come back to 643 00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:17,120 Speaker 1: discuss some more specific mineral springs and spas and localized 644 00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:20,160 Speaker 1: water traditions in the next episodes. Now, I do want 645 00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:22,200 Speaker 1: to come back to Virginia Smith for just a little bit, 646 00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:25,480 Speaker 1: because the author has an entire chapter on the Roman 647 00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:28,160 Speaker 1: baths and I just wanted to run through some bits 648 00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:31,120 Speaker 1: here that may shed some additional light on, So what 649 00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:35,400 Speaker 1: we've been talking about. First of all, Smith writes that 650 00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:38,600 Speaker 1: the Romans were heavily influenced by the Greek concept of 651 00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:42,120 Speaker 1: the managed life, which seems to line up fairly closely 652 00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:44,480 Speaker 1: with this idea of the finished body. But in both 653 00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:47,480 Speaker 1: cases Greeks and Romans, but especially the Romans, bathing was 654 00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:52,319 Speaker 1: also part of politics and state craft. So again, I mean, 655 00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:53,960 Speaker 1: part of it comes down to like where are you 656 00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:56,399 Speaker 1: hanging out, but also it gets tied up in these 657 00:39:56,440 --> 00:40:01,680 Speaker 1: just ideas of culture, and with the Romans, the Roman 658 00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:05,759 Speaker 1: bath becomes part of their civilizing process. Yes, I get 659 00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:09,960 Speaker 1: the sense that for the Romans, like having a good 660 00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:14,920 Speaker 1: local bath facility was part of kind of town pride. 661 00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:17,240 Speaker 1: It was a part of like what made you show 662 00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:21,279 Speaker 1: that your society was sophisticated and powerful. Yeah. Yeah, So 663 00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:23,840 Speaker 1: the Roman elite, they certainly had their baths and like 664 00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:28,120 Speaker 1: their bath, but they also somewhat erratically over time, spent 665 00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:32,600 Speaker 1: money on healthy services for the people that included public baths, 666 00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:36,279 Speaker 1: along with other things like town doctors, sports programs. Kind 667 00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:38,719 Speaker 1: of getting getting into that where you're talking about with 668 00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:42,240 Speaker 1: the idea of the Roman bath as being this gymnasium 669 00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:47,359 Speaker 1: slash limscas you know, and everything else. These programs, Smith rights, 670 00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:51,280 Speaker 1: would have only impacted about a quarter of Roman imperial residents, 671 00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:55,719 Speaker 1: those living in cities and regular bathers, so those two 672 00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:58,120 Speaker 1: things had to line up. But that's still quite a 673 00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:00,719 Speaker 1: lot of cleanliness for the time period. And Smith writes 674 00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:04,319 Speaker 1: that quote urban Roman life would have been inconceivable and 675 00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:07,640 Speaker 1: a lot more feted and visibly filthy without the various 676 00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:12,399 Speaker 1: public baths, latrains, fountains and taps served by the Roman aqueducts. 677 00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:14,960 Speaker 1: And that, of course is that's a whole issue in 678 00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:18,640 Speaker 1: and of itself. Like to power all of this, you 679 00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:21,200 Speaker 1: need to be able to control the water. You need 680 00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:23,120 Speaker 1: to be able to bring the water where you need 681 00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:27,120 Speaker 1: it to be, and the aqueducts were a huge engineering 682 00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:31,680 Speaker 1: victory on that front. Also, you need you need a 683 00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:36,440 Speaker 1: good sewer system, and when they worked, the Cloaca or 684 00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:39,600 Speaker 1: the Roman sewers were also an essential part of the system. 685 00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:42,400 Speaker 1: This reminds me of our invention episode on the toilet. 686 00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:44,920 Speaker 1: You know, when you're tracing the history of the flushing toilet, 687 00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:48,120 Speaker 1: it's one thing to be able to supply it with water, 688 00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:51,040 Speaker 1: quite another to have a good drainage or sewage system 689 00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:53,440 Speaker 1: to back it up, right, Yeah, I mean I think 690 00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:58,279 Speaker 1: you could argue that when it comes to waste disposal technology, 691 00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:01,120 Speaker 1: the good drainage or sew or system is the more 692 00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:05,400 Speaker 1: important element than the toilet itself. Yeah. So, like, like 693 00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:08,319 Speaker 1: we were saying that the baths were an essential part 694 00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:11,399 Speaker 1: of Roman life, and Smith points out that that, Yeah, 695 00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:13,200 Speaker 1: in fact, if you look at if there's a decline 696 00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:17,360 Speaker 1: of the bath system in a given city, that's generally 697 00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:20,520 Speaker 1: a sign of greater economic instability or some other kind 698 00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:22,880 Speaker 1: of unrest. Like you can use it as sort of 699 00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:26,240 Speaker 1: the you know, the litmus test for how how life 700 00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:29,080 Speaker 1: is going in that particular corner of the empire or 701 00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:31,480 Speaker 1: the empire as a whole. Now, Smith notes that the 702 00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:34,800 Speaker 1: main reason for the Roman public baths was quote pleasure 703 00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:40,279 Speaker 1: politics and propaganda rather than disease prevention proper. But the 704 00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:46,040 Speaker 1: hygienic impact, while likely marginal, that then margin still might 705 00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:49,320 Speaker 1: have been enough to tip the scales in public health. Okay, 706 00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:51,800 Speaker 1: but this would be talking about its actual effect on 707 00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:55,920 Speaker 1: health rather than perceived effect on health, right right, Like, Like, 708 00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:58,480 Speaker 1: how for for all of this bathing and talk of 709 00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:02,000 Speaker 1: the humors, like, was it actually making any kind of 710 00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:05,440 Speaker 1: an impact on the overall health of a population, and 711 00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:09,520 Speaker 1: so probably not to a large degree, but the small 712 00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:12,359 Speaker 1: degree to which it did have an impact that might 713 00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:14,960 Speaker 1: have been enough to say sort of keep a society 714 00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:18,080 Speaker 1: like a little more healthy than normal and maybe just 715 00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:22,040 Speaker 1: on the right side of you know, pandemic illness, that 716 00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:24,600 Speaker 1: sort of thing. And I don't know if we'll get 717 00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:27,440 Speaker 1: into this in the next episode or not, but like 718 00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:29,719 Speaker 1: another thing to consider with like the global history of 719 00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:34,360 Speaker 1: bath cultures is that at times there does become a 720 00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:39,040 Speaker 1: disease fear regarding these places, and sometimes there's a moral 721 00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:42,160 Speaker 1: panic regarding these places, and we see that played out 722 00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:48,000 Speaker 1: with the popularity of say spas and saunas throughout European history. Now, 723 00:43:48,239 --> 00:43:51,360 Speaker 1: the Romans were apparently initially resistant to the Greek idea 724 00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:54,719 Speaker 1: of the bath gymnasium. I'm not sure exactly why, but 725 00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:57,839 Speaker 1: they eventually gave in between twenty nine and nineteen BC. 726 00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:02,239 Speaker 1: According to Smith, whoever was in the Roman culture, we're 727 00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:05,000 Speaker 1: saying no, we should not have a gem at the bath. 728 00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:07,239 Speaker 1: They're finally they're like, okay, that's fine, we can, we 729 00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:09,400 Speaker 1: can have a gem at the bath. I found this 730 00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:12,080 Speaker 1: really interesting. So again, a lot of these, the Greek 731 00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:16,640 Speaker 1: enthusiasm for baths. This gets inherited and and and co 732 00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:19,440 Speaker 1: opted by the Romans. But the Romans were likely so 733 00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:21,560 Speaker 1: gung ho for all of this in part because of 734 00:44:21,560 --> 00:44:25,360 Speaker 1: a pre existing bath culture connected to the various volcanic 735 00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:28,920 Speaker 1: hot springs on the Italian peninsula. Yes, okay, so here 736 00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:34,320 Speaker 1: you see we see connections, causal connections between culture and geology. Yeah. 737 00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:36,319 Speaker 1: And it's also an important reminder that even if we're 738 00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:40,040 Speaker 1: talking about sort of like the importance of Greek bath 739 00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:43,400 Speaker 1: culture Roman bath culture, and how these different cultures and 740 00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:46,319 Speaker 1: spread to different areas, it's still not a situation where 741 00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:49,520 Speaker 1: somebody like Hercules is coming along and saying, hey, guys, 742 00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:52,799 Speaker 1: I just invented something. Get this, what have you put 743 00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:56,760 Speaker 1: your whole body in warm water? Like? And then everybody's 744 00:44:56,760 --> 00:44:59,520 Speaker 1: mind is blown. You know. No, it's it's like these 745 00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:02,920 Speaker 1: ideas as would have been widespread already. So any place 746 00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:06,399 Speaker 1: that suddenly encounters like the Roman idea of baths, it's 747 00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:08,719 Speaker 1: not all completely new to them. There might be it 748 00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:11,280 Speaker 1: might they might be stressing some things that were different. 749 00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:13,239 Speaker 1: There might be some sort of wrapping for it. You know, 750 00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:15,400 Speaker 1: these I say, maybe the ideas of the humors or 751 00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:19,719 Speaker 1: something to that effect. But just the idea of enjoying 752 00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:22,880 Speaker 1: the benefits of a hot spring or a cold spring, 753 00:45:23,239 --> 00:45:26,239 Speaker 1: those are likely already inherent in a given culture for 754 00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:28,480 Speaker 1: one reason or another. But then there will also be 755 00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:33,160 Speaker 1: different preexisting bathing cultures as well, and Smith includes a 756 00:45:33,239 --> 00:45:36,279 Speaker 1: nice example of this. So the Etruscans were apparently all 757 00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:40,120 Speaker 1: about small half baths, and they didn't dig communal baths, 758 00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:44,680 Speaker 1: even for like families. The Romans thought differently though, and 759 00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:48,040 Speaker 1: so and even with the Romans, though, you have the 760 00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:50,320 Speaker 1: situation where they had to come around to fully accepting 761 00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:54,319 Speaker 1: the idea of the Greek gymnasium bath. So even though 762 00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:59,040 Speaker 1: everybody might generally be okay with the idea of bathing 763 00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:01,120 Speaker 1: in hot water bathe in cold water, they're going to 764 00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:04,760 Speaker 1: be different ideas about particular benefits or how you should 765 00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:08,160 Speaker 1: go about doing these things culturally. And then again we 766 00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:12,239 Speaker 1: get into the geography again, which sites are important, which 767 00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:15,120 Speaker 1: sites are important within a given culture, and then which 768 00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:19,520 Speaker 1: sites end up being co opted by cultures that the 769 00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:22,000 Speaker 1: takeover a given area in vada given area, or just 770 00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:24,960 Speaker 1: over the long course of time, become dominant in a 771 00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:28,000 Speaker 1: period that once had different ideas. All right, well, I 772 00:46:28,040 --> 00:46:29,520 Speaker 1: think we're going to have to call it there for 773 00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:31,839 Speaker 1: part one of the series, but we will be back 774 00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:36,000 Speaker 1: next time to discuss more about the healing waters. Yeah, 775 00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:38,480 Speaker 1: certainly in the meantime, if you have anything you want 776 00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:42,080 Speaker 1: to write in about concerning traditions of healing waters or 777 00:46:42,160 --> 00:46:46,239 Speaker 1: just experiences with pleasant waters. If you want to talk 778 00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:50,399 Speaker 1: about particularly great springs, you've been to that sort of thing, 779 00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:52,839 Speaker 1: and we're always interested in that. I don't know how 780 00:46:52,920 --> 00:46:56,240 Speaker 1: much we'll be able to get into various cultures in 781 00:46:55,560 --> 00:46:59,439 Speaker 1: the episode or episodes ahead on this topic, So yeah, 782 00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:02,160 Speaker 1: if there's something near and dear to your heart right in, 783 00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:04,560 Speaker 1: we'd love to talk about it on a listener Mail episode. 784 00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:07,520 Speaker 1: Those listener Mail episodes, by the way, come out on Mondays, 785 00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:09,759 Speaker 1: our core episodes of Stuff to blow your mincament on 786 00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:12,600 Speaker 1: Tuesdays and Thursdays. On Wednesdays we do a short form 787 00:47:12,680 --> 00:47:15,760 Speaker 1: artifact or monster fact, and on Weird House Cinema on Fridays, 788 00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:17,920 Speaker 1: we just take a little time to talk about a 789 00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:21,680 Speaker 1: weird film. Huge thanks to our audio producer J J. Paseway. 790 00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:23,799 Speaker 1: If you would like to get in touch with us 791 00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:26,640 Speaker 1: with feedback on this episode or any other. To suggest 792 00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:28,720 Speaker 1: a topic for the future, or just to say hello, 793 00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:31,399 Speaker 1: you can email us at contact at stuff to Blow 794 00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:41,640 Speaker 1: your Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is 795 00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:44,879 Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from my heart Radio, 796 00:47:45,120 --> 00:47:48,280 Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening 797 00:47:48,320 --> 00:48:00,040 Speaker 1: to your favorite shows. The