WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 6 0:00:00.920 --> 0:00:04.840 I'm Jake Calbern, host of deep Cover. Our new season 0:00:04.920 --> 0:00:07.760 is about a lawyer who helped the mob run Chicago. 0:00:08.280 --> 0:00:11.080 He bribed judges and even helped a hit man walk 0:00:11.200 --> 0:00:14.200 free until one day when he started talking with the 0:00:14.280 --> 0:00:17.520 FBI and promised that he could take the mob down. 0:00:18.280 --> 0:00:20.439 I've spent the past year trying to figure out why 0:00:20.440 --> 0:00:23.319 he flipped and what he was really after. Listen to 0:00:23.360 --> 0:00:26.440 deep Cover on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 0:00:26.520 --> 0:00:32.280 or wherever you get your podcasts. What girls in the Forest, 0:00:32.680 --> 0:00:37.519 our imagination, and our family bonds. The forest is closer 0:00:37.520 --> 0:00:40.440 than you think. Find a forest near you and discover 0:00:40.520 --> 0:00:43.000 the Forest dot Org. Brought to you by the United 0:00:43.040 --> 0:00:47.200 States Forest Service and the AD Council. Hello, and welcome 0:00:47.240 --> 0:00:49.400 to our show. I'm Zoe de Channel and I'm so 0:00:49.440 --> 0:00:51.840 excited to be joined by my friends and cats Meats, 0:00:51.960 --> 0:00:54.800 Hannah Simone and Lamar and Morris to recap our hit 0:00:54.880 --> 0:00:58.480 television series New Girl. Join us every Monday on the 0:00:58.480 --> 0:01:01.000 Welcome to Our Show podcast, where we'll share behind the 0:01:01.040 --> 0:01:04.039 scenes stories of your favorite New Girl episodes. Each week, 0:01:04.080 --> 0:01:06.760 we answer all your burnie questions like is there really 0:01:06.800 --> 0:01:09.360 a bear in every episode of New Girl? Plus you'll 0:01:09.400 --> 0:01:13.240 hear hilarious stories like this that was one of m 0:01:13.600 --> 0:01:22.000 yea all professional pasketball players. Yeah yeah. Listen to the 0:01:22.040 --> 0:01:24.760 Welcome to Our Show podcast on the I Heart Radio app, 0:01:25.080 --> 0:01:29.600 Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everybody, 0:01:29.760 --> 0:01:31.640 Robert Evans here and I wanted to let you know 0:01:31.880 --> 0:01:35.360 this is a compilation episode. So every episode of the 0:01:35.400 --> 0:01:39.160 week that just happened is here in one convenient and 0:01:39.240 --> 0:01:42.480 with somewhat less ads package for you to listen to 0:01:42.560 --> 0:01:44.840 in a long stretch if you want. If you've been 0:01:44.880 --> 0:01:47.000 listening to the episodes every day this week, there's gonna 0:01:47.040 --> 0:01:49.080 be nothing new here for you, but you can make 0:01:49.120 --> 0:02:00.640 your own decisions. God Area takeover. I asked for I'm grunting. 0:02:00.680 --> 0:02:04.040 That was like a word what okay, what it was? 0:02:06.280 --> 0:02:07.920 I know lots of they could have been here. And 0:02:07.960 --> 0:02:11.519 openings have become Bastard's openings now just kind of opening. 0:02:11.800 --> 0:02:15.560 Robert doesn't have more than one type of opening. There's two. 0:02:15.639 --> 0:02:18.840 There's there's grunting and then yelling something weird that is 0:02:19.160 --> 0:02:22.160 that's basically the same learning how to do your job 0:02:22.400 --> 0:02:26.679 is cuk shit. Also, to be honest, most of the time, 0:02:26.760 --> 0:02:30.400 doesn't know which podcast he's doing. What is this are 0:02:30.440 --> 0:02:32.440 we doing? Is this the daily sidegeist? Is this is 0:02:32.560 --> 0:02:37.520 my Jack O'Brien, this is this is it could happen here. 0:02:40.880 --> 0:02:46.000 So we're talking today about the different things that are 0:02:46.400 --> 0:02:50.399 it here being the States this time. UM, but we're 0:02:50.440 --> 0:02:53.280 talking about basically, over the course of the past few months, 0:02:53.320 --> 0:02:56.520 we have covered a few different topics on the show, UM, 0:02:56.760 --> 0:02:59.360 some of which have already kind of had some results 0:02:59.440 --> 0:03:02.359 of had up dates to what we've already covered. So 0:03:02.480 --> 0:03:04.280 we're I'm gonna I'm gonna go through a list of 0:03:04.280 --> 0:03:07.120 like a three different things we've covered and talk about 0:03:07.240 --> 0:03:09.920 kind of the updates in these stories. Um. You know, 0:03:09.960 --> 0:03:12.560 most of what we've covered around these topics have been 0:03:12.639 --> 0:03:16.280 like a mix of original reporting and interviews. So now 0:03:16.480 --> 0:03:18.359 there's been further further work down on this, and I 0:03:18.360 --> 0:03:20.480 just want to kind of update people. If you know, 0:03:20.560 --> 0:03:23.120 they're not as terminally online as us, maybe they have 0:03:23.240 --> 0:03:25.080 not heard that there's been changes to these stories. And 0:03:25.120 --> 0:03:26.920 I wanted to kind of put together a nice little 0:03:26.919 --> 0:03:31.320 concise thing talking about updates to all the things we've covered. UM. 0:03:31.400 --> 0:03:34.200 So the first thing that we're gonna be talking a 0:03:34.200 --> 0:03:36.800 bit about is the Cops City in Atlanta, and they 0:03:36.880 --> 0:03:41.080 defend the Atlanta Forest collision. So I think like a 0:03:41.360 --> 0:03:47.040 day after our episode dropped on that, UM, Atlantic City 0:03:47.080 --> 0:03:51.840 Council voted UH ten to four in favor of getting 0:03:51.920 --> 0:03:56.320 the militarized police training facility greenlit Um nicknamed Cops City. 0:03:56.480 --> 0:04:00.240 There was seventeen hours of public testimony. We're seven many 0:04:00.240 --> 0:04:02.720 percent of the callers bilk out against the facility. Yeah, 0:04:03.040 --> 0:04:05.240 I mean that we had that happen in Portland. It 0:04:05.280 --> 0:04:07.880 doesn't Yeah, Yeah, it never matters. It doesn't matter what 0:04:07.960 --> 0:04:11.560 the vast majority, especially when there's especially when this money involved. Yeah, 0:04:12.960 --> 0:04:16.120 do not, do not ever be deceived into thinking that 0:04:16.760 --> 0:04:18.640 you live in a democracy and that what you actually 0:04:18.720 --> 0:04:20.480 want to matter is in any way, shape or form. 0:04:20.600 --> 0:04:23.000 This is just not This is empirically not true. Like 0:04:23.000 --> 0:04:28.040 like sixty percent of Texans periods support vaccine mandates in 0:04:28.080 --> 0:04:30.560 some instances, but the governor just made it illegal to 0:04:30.560 --> 0:04:33.200 do them. Ever, Um, Like it's it's it's that way 0:04:33.240 --> 0:04:37.800 across the board across the nation. UM. People ask sometimes 0:04:37.880 --> 0:04:40.520 because like you know, when you get into anarchists discussions 0:04:40.520 --> 0:04:43.520 of politics, there's a lot of criticism of democracy. I 0:04:43.520 --> 0:04:45.760 don't I think democracy is a lovely idea. I would 0:04:45.800 --> 0:04:47.560 like to try it something. It would be nice to 0:04:47.560 --> 0:04:51.520 get it ago. It would be nice to experience. So yeah, 0:04:51.560 --> 0:04:54.599 this Sin City Council voted to least the acres of 0:04:54.600 --> 0:04:58.240 city owned forest land to the Atlanta Police Foundation, UM, 0:04:58.279 --> 0:04:59.880 at least eighty five acres of which is going to 0:04:59.960 --> 0:05:02.520 be slated to become the police training facility. UM. The 0:05:02.520 --> 0:05:06.120 facility is going to cost around ninety million dollars. Jesus Christ, 0:05:06.200 --> 0:05:10.400 I could train cops much cheaper than that, although training 0:05:10.520 --> 0:05:13.479 is the wrong word. Yeah, that is the wrong word 0:05:13.600 --> 0:05:15.680 for that. UM. So yeah, no, nine million dollars. It's 0:05:15.680 --> 0:05:17.520 gonna include. It's gonna include a state of the art 0:05:17.520 --> 0:05:21.960 explosive testing facility, firing ranges, emergency vehicle operations course, a 0:05:22.080 --> 0:05:26.679 classroom space, UM, and an emergency and an emergency space 0:05:27.040 --> 0:05:30.000 will probably learn to read right. I'm sure it's for 0:05:30.040 --> 0:05:33.200 teaching people to do bad things. UM. There's going to 0:05:33.240 --> 0:05:37.239 be an emergency helicopter pad and an entire like mock town. 0:05:37.800 --> 0:05:40.159 It is good that they have the emergency helicopter pad 0:05:40.240 --> 0:05:44.039 because cops shoot each other with live ammunition all the time, 0:05:44.080 --> 0:05:48.279 and that does happen. Does happen a lot so yeah, 0:05:48.400 --> 0:05:52.039 the main backroupd for this project is the Atlanta Police Foundation, 0:05:52.080 --> 0:05:54.400 which is a political advocacy group that you know, has 0:05:54.440 --> 0:05:56.919 a lot of funding from corporations and they try to 0:05:56.960 --> 0:05:59.880 you know, sway the political power of the city and 0:06:00.040 --> 0:06:03.520 to giving more power to the police. Um uh huh. 0:06:03.640 --> 0:06:06.320 So the interesting thing about this though, is like the 0:06:06.360 --> 0:06:08.719 vote was supposed to happen in August, UM, but it 0:06:08.760 --> 0:06:11.200 was rescheduled for early September after there was a lot 0:06:11.240 --> 0:06:15.120 of public backlash around this proposal. Um. Then the vote 0:06:15.520 --> 0:06:18.279 that was supposed to happen on like thet got pushed 0:06:18.279 --> 0:06:20.839 back the whole day because there was too many callers 0:06:20.880 --> 0:06:22.880 saying that they didn't want the facility. So the vote 0:06:22.920 --> 0:06:25.800 got pushed back a day in September, but it stays 0:06:25.839 --> 0:06:29.760 still voted for it. Yeah, So thirty million dollars is 0:06:29.800 --> 0:06:33.680 going to be footed by taxpayers and the other sixty 0:06:33.680 --> 0:06:36.720 million is going to get paid for by the Police Foundation, 0:06:36.920 --> 0:06:39.360 which has a lot of different like corporate donors. So 0:06:40.160 --> 0:06:43.960 that's that's that's that's that um. And of course it's 0:06:43.960 --> 0:06:45.480 on you know, on this forest land, which is like 0:06:45.520 --> 0:06:47.120 some of the you know, biggest forest land in any 0:06:47.120 --> 0:06:49.400 major American city, so you know, they're tearing down all 0:06:49.440 --> 0:06:52.760 this forest to build this concrete city to train cops in. 0:06:53.720 --> 0:06:57.440 We also mentioned that at the end of her interview 0:06:58.040 --> 0:07:01.840 with some of the people resisting the they basically said, like, 0:07:01.880 --> 0:07:03.880 if the vote goes through, resists is going to continue, 0:07:04.240 --> 0:07:07.440 so we will continue. There's probably gonna be efforts to 0:07:07.520 --> 0:07:09.960 like actually try to physically prevent the construction of this. 0:07:10.080 --> 0:07:12.320 But the next thing we're gonna be talking about is 0:07:12.400 --> 0:07:14.920 stop line three um, which mean there was also you know, 0:07:14.960 --> 0:07:18.520 physical efforts to prevent that. But the type of efforts 0:07:18.560 --> 0:07:22.920 that people usually do in you know, modern green activism 0:07:23.000 --> 0:07:27.000 usually are a lot more performative or they're specifically to 0:07:27.160 --> 0:07:31.680 pressure to create scenes that will try to convince politicians 0:07:31.680 --> 0:07:35.480 to veto the process. So it's not you know, it's 0:07:35.480 --> 0:07:37.560 it's it's different from the nineties when it was easier 0:07:37.600 --> 0:07:40.600 to like actually physically stop the prevention of things. Now 0:07:40.640 --> 0:07:42.720 a lot of the people who you know are trying 0:07:42.720 --> 0:07:46.000 to do this, it is they're not convinced that, you know, 0:07:46.080 --> 0:07:48.840 doing a lock box is going to actually physically prevent it. 0:07:49.000 --> 0:07:51.600 What it's gonna do is create media coverage that truy 0:07:51.760 --> 0:07:54.280 that is going to hopefully convince politicians to be like, hey, 0:07:54.280 --> 0:07:57.000 maybe we shouldn't do this, and that's a hard bargain, right, 0:07:57.040 --> 0:07:59.360 that's not there's no saying that that's actually going to 0:07:59.480 --> 0:08:01.200 do the thing. Know, in the in the case of 0:08:01.200 --> 0:08:04.800 stop Line three that did not stop line three. Um. 0:08:05.600 --> 0:08:08.360 There was a really good uh um critique of the 0:08:08.400 --> 0:08:11.680 stop Line three protests posted in It's going down by 0:08:11.720 --> 0:08:14.680 an Indigenous anarchist who lives on that land who was 0:08:14.680 --> 0:08:17.240 like younger um, and they're you know, watching all of 0:08:17.240 --> 0:08:19.560 these you know, older indigenous anarchists, you know, keep on 0:08:19.560 --> 0:08:22.360 getting arrested and brutalized, Like, but we're not actually doing anything. 0:08:22.360 --> 0:08:23.840 And the methods that we're doing that, the methods that 0:08:23.880 --> 0:08:26.840 we're trying to like, you know, game public support, this 0:08:26.920 --> 0:08:29.560 isn't working in this specific context. Maybe we should reevaluate 0:08:29.600 --> 0:08:31.640 what we're actually doing. I know It's going down, and 0:08:31.640 --> 0:08:34.000 faced a bit of backlash for posting that critique, but 0:08:34.080 --> 0:08:36.000 I think that I think the critique is actually worth reading. 0:08:36.520 --> 0:08:38.920 Any other thoughts on the Atlanta thing before I move 0:08:38.960 --> 0:08:42.400 on to the stop line three stuff, um, No, no 0:08:42.640 --> 0:08:45.000 other than to note that I think the best brisket 0:08:45.040 --> 0:08:49.240 I've ever had came from Atlanta. Okay, well I'll probably 0:08:49.520 --> 0:08:52.840 I'll probably visiting Atlanta in the near future, maybe there 0:08:52.880 --> 0:08:55.000 with you, um, in which case I'll get some more 0:08:55.000 --> 0:08:58.600 motherfucking brisket. Yeah. It was actually the fun story. We 0:08:58.600 --> 0:09:01.560 were road tripping through town, me and another friend in 0:09:01.559 --> 0:09:04.160 another car and we were talking over radios and a 0:09:04.240 --> 0:09:07.520 trucker got on like the channel we were on because 0:09:07.520 --> 0:09:09.760 we were talking about where to get barbecue, and he 0:09:09.800 --> 0:09:12.280 told us where to go. Um. It was neat. It 0:09:12.320 --> 0:09:15.160 was like an actual nice, like like moment of CB 0:09:15.360 --> 0:09:17.960 radio connection. Like this guy was just scanning the waves 0:09:17.960 --> 0:09:19.199 and found us and I was like, oh, I can 0:09:19.200 --> 0:09:21.679 tell you where to go anyway, continue Garrison. That was 0:09:21.720 --> 0:09:25.080 completely unrelated to stopping Line three. So the next thing 0:09:25.240 --> 0:09:28.920 is earlier, I think in September maybe August. I forget, 0:09:28.960 --> 0:09:31.880 it's been a while. We we we posted two episodes 0:09:31.920 --> 0:09:34.600 about me visiting the top Line three protests and the 0:09:34.600 --> 0:09:37.040 Earth First camp, and a lot of stuff has happened 0:09:37.080 --> 0:09:40.400 since then. UM. So you know, the main you know 0:09:40.559 --> 0:09:43.600 thing is that the pipe planet has been finished now 0:09:43.720 --> 0:09:46.840 um and is basically getting is ready to be operated, 0:09:46.880 --> 0:09:49.360 or it probably already has some operation. It's unclear how 0:09:49.400 --> 0:09:52.040 much is being used right now, but it is done construction. 0:09:52.480 --> 0:09:55.720 It doubles the capacity of the original pipeline. It's going 0:09:55.760 --> 0:09:58.400 to be doing like a seven hundred and sixty thousand 0:09:58.440 --> 0:10:01.880 barrels of oil a day's so in the carves outland 0:10:01.920 --> 0:10:04.880 through through wet lands where people grow wild rice and 0:10:04.920 --> 0:10:09.280 do hunting. Um So, overall the past few months police 0:10:09.360 --> 0:10:13.240 arrested over nine people, and it's there's been a lot 0:10:13.280 --> 0:10:16.120 of like felony charges specifically for locking down, which is 0:10:16.240 --> 0:10:19.160 pretty new because they're using felony theft charges for people 0:10:19.200 --> 0:10:23.760 just locking down to equipment. Yeah, that is an unfortunate escalation. Yeah. 0:10:23.920 --> 0:10:26.760 Um So by the time we posted our top line 0:10:26.800 --> 0:10:29.040 three episodes, we kind of already figured this was going 0:10:29.080 --> 0:10:31.199 to be the result that That's kind of how he 0:10:31.280 --> 0:10:34.240 ended the episode saying, there's been all this resistance, but 0:10:34.400 --> 0:10:36.520 probably it's going to get built, and you know, there's 0:10:36.559 --> 0:10:38.800 other things that we can learn from this movement going 0:10:38.800 --> 0:10:41.960 on into the future. Um but the new developments that 0:10:42.000 --> 0:10:45.199 have happened. Um I. I did mention in the episodes 0:10:45.320 --> 0:10:48.120 how much Enbridge was directly paying cops. That was something 0:10:48.120 --> 0:10:50.640 we already knew. What was happening. But there was an 0:10:50.760 --> 0:10:54.400 article by the Guardian that really gave a lot of 0:10:54.480 --> 0:10:59.040 new information around how much police involvement there is with 0:10:59.440 --> 0:11:02.560 like with Enbridge, Like they are actually coordinating a lot. 0:11:02.679 --> 0:11:07.320 So overall, uh, Enbridge has reimbursed US police almost two 0:11:07.320 --> 0:11:11.160 and a half million dollars for arresting and surveying protesters. UM, 0:11:11.240 --> 0:11:15.920 also paying for like food, lodging gas. So like's they're 0:11:15.960 --> 0:11:18.040 not just not not not just paying wages, they're paying 0:11:18.040 --> 0:11:20.640 like for extra stuff as well. So at least at 0:11:20.720 --> 0:11:23.320 least two and a half million dollars that's been paid 0:11:23.320 --> 0:11:25.960 from the Canadian oil company um, you know, including that 0:11:26.000 --> 0:11:30.320 includes officer officer training, UH, police patrol routes, surveillance, all 0:11:30.320 --> 0:11:34.160 this kind of stuff. UM. The one one interesting thing 0:11:34.320 --> 0:11:37.440 that was noted in the article is that the company 0:11:37.559 --> 0:11:40.560 at Enbridge meets daily with police officers to discuss intelligence 0:11:40.559 --> 0:11:43.800 gathering and patrols um. And when and when Enbridge wants 0:11:43.840 --> 0:11:46.920 protesters removed, it directly calls or sends letters to police. 0:11:47.080 --> 0:11:51.040 So they they actually like coordinate when to actually get 0:11:51.040 --> 0:11:54.120 police involved during protests, and they have at least daily 0:11:54.360 --> 0:11:58.040 information meetings. The one other interesting thing besides just directly 0:11:58.080 --> 0:12:01.800 paying them for food for you know, a training equipment, 0:12:02.200 --> 0:12:04.040 and the coordination between en Bridge and people being on 0:12:04.080 --> 0:12:08.080 the ground is um how much that the Enbridge paid 0:12:08.160 --> 0:12:12.960 for uh, like proactive safety patrols and specific like specific 0:12:13.000 --> 0:12:17.360 officer surveillance following alleged activists like home. So they would 0:12:17.360 --> 0:12:20.600 like trail specific cars for a long time and try 0:12:20.640 --> 0:12:23.360 to like do like in person surveillance on specific people 0:12:23.400 --> 0:12:26.120 they thought were activists. And all of this time was 0:12:26.160 --> 0:12:29.240 paid for by Enbridge and was being coordinated with Enbridge. 0:12:29.320 --> 0:12:31.440 So it's not just you know, paying for training, it's 0:12:31.440 --> 0:12:34.200 not just for paying for equipment. It's specific surveillance of 0:12:34.280 --> 0:12:37.400 certain people. And that is I don't know, that's something 0:12:37.400 --> 0:12:40.360 that we weren't We did not really know the depths 0:12:40.400 --> 0:12:43.960 of that for sure, but it's pretty it's pretty messed up. 0:12:44.320 --> 0:12:47.200 I know. We we suspected some of this coordination before, 0:12:47.360 --> 0:12:50.360 Like when we talked about police showing up to the 0:12:50.360 --> 0:12:53.439 Stop Line three camp and blocking off access to the road. Uh, 0:12:53.480 --> 0:12:55.319 this was at the same day that drilling under the 0:12:55.400 --> 0:12:59.280 river was just being finished, and we so we suspected like, yeah, 0:12:59.280 --> 0:13:02.000 there's like Embridge obviously talking with police to prevent people 0:13:02.000 --> 0:13:04.520 from leaving so that they can they can finish up 0:13:04.559 --> 0:13:06.880 this specific drilling project that was that was pretty obvious 0:13:06.880 --> 0:13:09.760 to us at the scene. Um, and now we have, 0:13:09.840 --> 0:13:12.080 you know, extra confirmation that, yeah, they do like meet 0:13:12.200 --> 0:13:16.400 daily to coordinate these types of things. Um. So it's 0:13:16.440 --> 0:13:18.280 good to have that extra confirmation of the stuff we 0:13:18.320 --> 0:13:20.440 already like suspected and stuff we already kind of like 0:13:20.480 --> 0:13:22.760 put together through experience. But now we have like, you know, 0:13:22.840 --> 0:13:26.640 court documents and records showing the extent of the coordination. 0:13:27.080 --> 0:13:30.480 All right, well we'll talk about terrorism, but you know 0:13:30.520 --> 0:13:33.560 who else is a terrorist? Oh boy? The products and 0:13:33.600 --> 0:13:37.160 services that support this podcast are all right in a 0:13:37.240 --> 0:13:41.120 good way, you know, uh like um, you know, like 0:13:41.320 --> 0:13:46.760 uh like uh kind of alright, well, it's it's complicated, 0:13:46.800 --> 0:13:51.480 all right. Do ads just run ads stuff? Oh yeah? 0:13:51.559 --> 0:13:53.240 So if it will probably be funnier if you bleep 0:13:53.240 --> 0:13:57.520 out the name of the terrorist organization. This is how 0:13:57.520 --> 0:13:58.760 we get This is how we pick up from the 0:13:58.760 --> 0:14:03.640 ad brancast. Are you saying that? So? Um? Garrison, We 0:14:03.720 --> 0:14:06.880 got some some critiques that came in to the old 0:14:06.920 --> 0:14:11.680 news line, by which I mean people deemed me on Reddit, 0:14:10.600 --> 0:14:15.840 which yeah, I never respond, Um, I almost never respond, 0:14:15.880 --> 0:14:20.400 it's nothing against people. I just don't like being communicated with. Um. 0:14:20.680 --> 0:14:23.960 But too many, too many people ask me to send 0:14:23.960 --> 0:14:28.560 messages to you and like yeah, you're not my secretary's 0:14:30.120 --> 0:14:32.320 and welcome to the last three years of my life. 0:14:32.920 --> 0:14:40.800 Uh yeah, anyway, yeah, I mean, but that's funny, Sophie. Ah, 0:14:42.320 --> 0:14:44.800 I don't know. Um, there were people who were like, hey, 0:14:44.840 --> 0:14:46.560 I don't know if you know this, but Earth First 0:14:46.560 --> 0:14:49.720 has a problematic history with like eco fascism and that 0:14:49.800 --> 0:14:53.320 sort of stuff. Um, just like that too. Yeah, and 0:14:53.400 --> 0:14:55.760 it's it's one of those things. They definitely are an 0:14:55.840 --> 0:14:58.120 organization that has said things in the past that I 0:14:58.120 --> 0:15:01.280 don't agree with. There's been specific people who do organizing 0:15:01.280 --> 0:15:04.680 with them that don't have great beliefs specifically around like 0:15:05.160 --> 0:15:06.800 you know, a lot of like in the old green 0:15:06.840 --> 0:15:08.720 movements has been you know, a lot of like transphobia, 0:15:09.040 --> 0:15:13.040 some like racism. Um, It's it's not because they're the 0:15:13.200 --> 0:15:16.520 green movements. Like all left spaces deal with versions and 0:15:16.560 --> 0:15:19.320 there of variety stuff, you know, not like respecting like 0:15:19.360 --> 0:15:22.520 indigenous people. Um, you know that that's been that's been 0:15:22.560 --> 0:15:26.840 a thing. Um. But the specific term eco fascism, I 0:15:26.840 --> 0:15:32.120 believe is incorrect, um, because they don't advocate for the 0:15:32.160 --> 0:15:35.920 genocide of a specific group, UM. And they don't have 0:15:36.360 --> 0:15:39.360 like far right populist policies. So like, you can have 0:15:39.480 --> 0:15:42.800 bad opinions and bad ideas and you can actually be 0:15:42.800 --> 0:15:46.920 a racist without actually being fascist, especially eco fascist. UM. 0:15:47.000 --> 0:15:48.600 So I feel like people throw that word around a 0:15:48.600 --> 0:15:51.040 lot and they don't actually know what it means. UM. 0:15:51.120 --> 0:15:55.040 But what were you specifically referring to, Robert Um. I'm 0:15:55.080 --> 0:15:57.920 trying to find the message here. But because I got 0:15:57.960 --> 0:16:00.680 a message saying that Earth First is bad because they're 0:16:00.720 --> 0:16:03.720 anti natalists, that means they're fascist, which isn't It isn't 0:16:03.760 --> 0:16:07.200 really got that yeah, which isn't. Actually like, I'm just 0:16:07.200 --> 0:16:09.160 going to disagree with that actause I don't think anti 0:16:09.240 --> 0:16:13.720 natalism quits fascism, especially anti natalism. For like, an anti 0:16:13.800 --> 0:16:16.800 natalism is basically saying, don't don't make people. Maybe we 0:16:16.800 --> 0:16:20.040 should maybe we should stop having more kids right now 0:16:20.080 --> 0:16:21.960 because we have a lot of problems to deal with 0:16:22.000 --> 0:16:24.920 and maybe we shouldn't be having like, you know, three kids, 0:16:25.280 --> 0:16:27.640 which is not it's not a take. I'm not an 0:16:27.640 --> 0:16:30.560 anti natalist. I don't actually disagree with that take though, 0:16:30.600 --> 0:16:32.160 But I think it's more in the line of, like, 0:16:33.200 --> 0:16:37.160 the most fundamental of all human desires for the majority 0:16:37.200 --> 0:16:40.840 of the population is to make more people, which is 0:16:40.880 --> 0:16:43.480 kind of why I like anti natalism, because it has 0:16:43.680 --> 0:16:46.000 that thing that's opposite to one of a lot of 0:16:46.120 --> 0:16:49.720 humans natural reaction, and like, no one's forcing anti natalists 0:16:49.760 --> 0:16:52.680 don't want to force you to be anti natalist. Bring 0:16:52.760 --> 0:16:55.280 up this as an idea, Yeah, and I think it's 0:16:55.280 --> 0:16:57.560 a valuable idea to discuss. And I don't think it's 0:16:57.640 --> 0:17:00.800 I don't think you're I don't think you're embracing like 0:17:01.760 --> 0:17:05.679 the massacre of human beings or genesis by saying like, 0:17:05.760 --> 0:17:07.600 I think it'd be best if we didn't make anymore. 0:17:07.760 --> 0:17:10.399 I'm not planning an arguable point, I'm not planning to 0:17:10.440 --> 0:17:12.080 have any kids because I don't see why it wou 0:17:12.160 --> 0:17:14.399 especially when there's so many like children that can be 0:17:14.440 --> 0:17:16.840 a doctor Garrison, we talked about you having kids so 0:17:16.880 --> 0:17:19.480 we could experiment with making them blue. This is a 0:17:19.520 --> 0:17:25.239 separate conversation that we're not talking about involving We are 0:17:25.280 --> 0:17:29.800 not talking about this on the plot. We'll just include 0:17:29.800 --> 0:17:33.040 that tantalizing hint. I also just think in general, when 0:17:33.080 --> 0:17:35.840 we talk about a group that's had a long history 0:17:36.040 --> 0:17:38.840 and a specific thing they're doing in the present. Yeah, 0:17:39.000 --> 0:17:40.959 this has happened in another situation where people like, well, 0:17:41.000 --> 0:17:42.359 you know, they did this or some one of them 0:17:42.400 --> 0:17:44.320 said this. And there's a couple of things I feel 0:17:44.320 --> 0:17:48.719 about that. For one thing, it's it's like it's entirely 0:17:48.760 --> 0:17:50.879 possible that the people doing the thing in the present 0:17:50.960 --> 0:17:53.560 day have nothing to do with the people twenty years ago. Yeah, 0:17:53.560 --> 0:17:55.640 Like most of the people there were First Gathering Gathering 0:17:55.680 --> 0:17:58.119 were like in their twenties and around my age, Like 0:17:58.200 --> 0:18:00.879 they weren't in the they weren't in Earth for night. 0:18:01.080 --> 0:18:05.159 Like that's not like, so I feel like silly about 0:18:05.280 --> 0:18:09.199 kind of making them be held accountable for something somebody 0:18:09.200 --> 0:18:12.439 else said under a similar maner decades ago. And on 0:18:12.480 --> 0:18:15.360 the podcast, I talked about how like people on their 0:18:15.640 --> 0:18:17.920 Earth First Earth First Gathering like talked about this stuff 0:18:17.960 --> 0:18:20.439 like that. People talked about Earth First like history and 0:18:20.480 --> 0:18:22.960 how they haven't handled some issues very well. There was 0:18:23.000 --> 0:18:25.200 a lot there was a massive effort for this gathering 0:18:25.440 --> 0:18:29.359 to like um to like uplift and make sure everyone 0:18:29.400 --> 0:18:33.800 focuses on Indigenous voices, Like they invited over multiple indigenous 0:18:33.840 --> 0:18:36.720 groups to give talks on green resistance and like land 0:18:36.720 --> 0:18:38.399 back like that. That was a big focus of like 0:18:38.600 --> 0:18:40.920 making sure that this actually is something that has heard 0:18:41.240 --> 0:18:43.639 because people know like this is, yeah, this is something important, 0:18:43.680 --> 0:18:45.920 this is something that actually should be done, and there 0:18:45.920 --> 0:18:48.320 are I think in general, when we talk about like 0:18:50.040 --> 0:18:54.800 holding organizations and individuals accountable for their past, um, what 0:18:54.880 --> 0:18:58.359 matters is like a mix of what they did and 0:18:58.400 --> 0:19:00.760 what they're doing. So obviously, if Earth First had been 0:19:00.760 --> 0:19:03.480 saying twenty years ago, we need to wipe out all 0:19:03.480 --> 0:19:05.360 the Jews, I would be like I wouldn't care what 0:19:05.359 --> 0:19:07.160 they were saying now, you know, it would be like, yeah, 0:19:07.160 --> 0:19:08.920 you can't really come back from that. If you want 0:19:08.920 --> 0:19:10.639 to do a completely different thing, it needs to be 0:19:10.680 --> 0:19:13.080 a new organization. Don't. But they weren't. And I'm not 0:19:13.119 --> 0:19:16.040 saying that where I'm just making an example, but like, 0:19:16.720 --> 0:19:19.359 as a rule, I think we should embrace the fact 0:19:19.359 --> 0:19:22.320 that organizations and people can change throughout time and be 0:19:22.320 --> 0:19:24.959 better than they were in the past, um and and 0:19:25.040 --> 0:19:29.320 learn from mistakes and flaws. And I feel pretty unwilling 0:19:29.359 --> 0:19:33.520 to condemn individuals or organizations for the mistakes of their past, 0:19:33.960 --> 0:19:36.960 although that is dependent upon the kind of mistake and 0:19:37.040 --> 0:19:39.640 the harm that it cost. Yeah, and like and how 0:19:39.720 --> 0:19:42.000 they address it in the futures, like a lot of 0:19:42.000 --> 0:19:43.879 these Yeah, because like it wasn't like first as an 0:19:43.880 --> 0:19:47.159 overall organization of specific people they were affiliated with, like 0:19:47.240 --> 0:19:50.040 you know, specifically UM like um Edward Abbey has said 0:19:50.040 --> 0:19:53.119 some not great things around different different different social issues, 0:19:53.240 --> 0:19:56.159 and his books were extremely influential on the beginning of 0:19:56.240 --> 0:19:58.639 green resistance. But that's something people talk about now, Like 0:19:58.640 --> 0:20:01.400 that's something that is like discussed and debated. Um. And 0:20:01.440 --> 0:20:03.439 he was and he was like even in the eighties 0:20:03.440 --> 0:20:05.400 and nineties, he was like kicked out of our first 0:20:05.400 --> 0:20:09.399 gatherings for kind of being a loser, like for for 0:20:09.400 --> 0:20:11.679 having these bad views. Were like, yeah, we probably shouldn't 0:20:11.720 --> 0:20:13.719 have you here anymore. Leave go away. It's like that 0:20:13.760 --> 0:20:16.360 was something that was even talked about back like back 0:20:16.359 --> 0:20:18.960 then as well. That is that isn't just a modern thing. Yeah, 0:20:19.000 --> 0:20:21.560 And I think in general, Number there's a couple of things. 0:20:21.640 --> 0:20:25.520 Number One, whenever we talk about like an organization in 0:20:25.520 --> 0:20:28.200 a specific context they're doing this, that doesn't mean we're 0:20:28.200 --> 0:20:31.600 embracing everything they've done. And number two, whenever we talk 0:20:31.680 --> 0:20:34.760 about the history of of of of a movement or 0:20:34.800 --> 0:20:38.359 a group. I hope nobody ever takes that as like, 0:20:38.440 --> 0:20:41.560 here is the authoritative stance on the history of this thing, 0:20:41.880 --> 0:20:43.760 Like it's when we talked about the Black Panthers. There's 0:20:43.800 --> 0:20:46.160 a bunch of stuff we left out that's very important. 0:20:46.600 --> 0:20:48.960 Um My hope with those episodes, and I hope with 0:20:48.960 --> 0:20:51.320 anything we do, is that it like inspires people to 0:20:51.560 --> 0:20:54.720 want to learn more and read more, and we're giving 0:20:54.800 --> 0:20:57.080 them a basis of understanding that they can use to 0:20:57.160 --> 0:21:01.240 expand their knowledge on an important topic. So please, we 0:21:01.320 --> 0:21:06.080 are we are. There's like one thing, uh collectively that 0:21:06.080 --> 0:21:08.560 that Garrison and I have any kind of expertise on, 0:21:09.160 --> 0:21:12.119 and uh, outside of that, you should not take anything 0:21:12.160 --> 0:21:15.880 we say as like, here's the comprehensive history of of 0:21:15.920 --> 0:21:20.600 this because it's I I understand one thing, and it's 0:21:20.720 --> 0:21:25.520 it's how the internet makes people shitty. Yeah, so yeah, 0:21:25.760 --> 0:21:28.480 um yeah, I mean that that was something that this 0:21:28.520 --> 0:21:30.399 whole thing was. Something I thought about when writing these 0:21:30.400 --> 0:21:32.159 episodes is how much to include of this stuff. And 0:21:32.160 --> 0:21:34.520 I did not feel like it was super important to 0:21:34.520 --> 0:21:36.680 discuss this stuff because it wasn't relevant to the topic 0:21:36.640 --> 0:21:39.679 of stop line think such relevant to the topic of 0:21:39.680 --> 0:21:41.919 like the current ongoing green resistance. If we want to 0:21:41.920 --> 0:21:44.240 do like a history of green activism, then yes, this 0:21:44.320 --> 0:21:46.760 is something that that would be that. Yeah, and I 0:21:46.800 --> 0:21:49.240 think like at some point we probably should do absolutely 0:21:49.240 --> 0:21:51.960 about just like Mirror and like all of that ship. 0:21:52.000 --> 0:21:53.760 But like that, there's a kind of stuff we want 0:21:53.760 --> 0:21:55.600 to talk about that we haven't yet because it's a 0:21:55.680 --> 0:21:57.760 daily show and my God, give us some fucking time. 0:21:57.800 --> 0:22:05.760 People speaking of Edward Abbey, you know what, huh Cells 0:22:06.119 --> 0:22:12.000 Quality monkey wrenches. Okay, alright, that's fine. The maybe one 0:22:12.040 --> 0:22:16.480 of our sponsors, I hope, so Ace Hardware, it's hardware 0:22:16.520 --> 0:22:18.640 bas hardware sponsoring us. They do sell You can get 0:22:18.640 --> 0:22:23.080 some good monkey wrenches from Ace Hardware Quality for fixing 0:22:23.080 --> 0:22:25.880 your faucet, for fixing your faucet. So go get wrench 0:22:25.960 --> 0:22:28.760 pilled and then listen to the rest of the show. 0:22:29.680 --> 0:22:32.320 Well we're back. We just had a good discussion about 0:22:32.320 --> 0:22:34.639 what we're gonna talk about, and we realized that it 0:22:34.680 --> 0:22:37.280 wasn't after the ad break, so here we are. Um 0:22:37.320 --> 0:22:40.960 In in early September, we had an episodes about both 0:22:40.960 --> 0:22:45.240 California's climate and the ongoing recall election against Gavin Newsom. 0:22:45.480 --> 0:22:47.959 So a few days after our episodes dropped to think 0:22:48.000 --> 0:22:49.960 like the day the day of the second one dropped 0:22:50.000 --> 0:22:53.280 was was election day? Um we we we got the 0:22:53.320 --> 0:22:56.160 results in faster than what I was expecting. Um and 0:22:56.680 --> 0:23:04.119 Newsome did handily beat lay very Elder with like so 0:23:04.520 --> 0:23:11.359 people people voted sixty no and like yes, so he 0:23:12.240 --> 0:23:16.440 Knewsome did a decent job and pushing off Elder. Um. 0:23:16.480 --> 0:23:20.359 So this, this, this whole recall processed costed California taxpayers 0:23:20.640 --> 0:23:25.080 two hundred and seventy six million dollars. It's not like 0:23:25.200 --> 0:23:28.840 we needed the money for anything else. Garrison. Come on, yeah, 0:23:28.960 --> 0:23:31.080 so you know a few takeaways. We're going to spend 0:23:31.080 --> 0:23:37.640 it oners literally anything else. Water giving California needs water 0:23:37.720 --> 0:23:41.600 and firefighters. Garrison coming giving houses to people who need houses. 0:23:41.640 --> 0:23:44.919 I don't know. Um yeah, so takeaways from this, Uh, 0:23:45.040 --> 0:23:48.320 the recall process still should absolutely be invented. Yeah, it 0:23:48.320 --> 0:23:52.600 shouldn't require should require more than twelve signatures of the 0:23:52.640 --> 0:23:56.960 last voter turnout. Um and the government should be requiring 0:23:57.080 --> 0:23:58.960 to get to if you're if you're gonna be elected 0:23:58.960 --> 0:24:00.320 in the government, you should be red to get a 0:24:00.400 --> 0:24:04.520 majority of votes. Um. Not not not just a plurality 0:24:04.640 --> 0:24:07.320 of a specific you know, sect, So there's a whole 0:24:07.560 --> 0:24:09.560 we we we talked about the specific reasons why it 0:24:09.560 --> 0:24:11.840 was bad in those episodes. Those are still those are 0:24:11.880 --> 0:24:15.000 still like, those are still valid, those are still relevant 0:24:15.280 --> 0:24:17.919 because there's still the same issues. Yeah, and none of 0:24:18.160 --> 0:24:20.480 the fact that this turned out well had anything to 0:24:20.520 --> 0:24:23.760 do with the Democratic Party who very nearly bungled it 0:24:24.480 --> 0:24:26.879 and it and it doesn't it doesn't really impact. It 0:24:26.880 --> 0:24:30.960 doesn't impact, you know, the California's climate issues so much. 0:24:31.000 --> 0:24:33.000 And like just because new Sims in office doesn't mean 0:24:33.040 --> 0:24:34.640 they're going to get much better. You know, there's still 0:24:34.640 --> 0:24:37.000 things that it needs to be pushed on to to 0:24:37.240 --> 0:24:39.960 you know, make the climate a little bit more habitable. 0:24:40.000 --> 0:24:43.760 In the meantime, it it means that we will continue 0:24:43.840 --> 0:24:50.680 stumbling towards a cliff rather than speak sprinting. So generally 0:24:50.680 --> 0:24:55.080 what voting for Democrats means, I will say, it's interesting 0:24:55.119 --> 0:25:00.879 to me that it doesn't seem like you can get 0:25:01.680 --> 0:25:04.320 the vote was rigged thing to work unless the election 0:25:04.440 --> 0:25:07.080 is like kind of this is the next thing I 0:25:07.080 --> 0:25:10.439 was going to talk about. Um, Yeah, because because like 0:25:10.480 --> 0:25:13.240 in the week before the election, uh, the Fox News 0:25:13.280 --> 0:25:16.080 Republican Party and Larry Elder and even Trump, we're really 0:25:16.080 --> 0:25:18.920 starting to ramp up this idea that if Elder loses, 0:25:19.000 --> 0:25:21.480 that means the election was rigged. Uh. This was like 0:25:21.520 --> 0:25:23.720 they were really pushing this hard and you know, spreading it, 0:25:23.800 --> 0:25:25.720 like they were giving links to a website like before 0:25:25.760 --> 0:25:28.800 he lost, even be like, if you know, when I lose, 0:25:29.160 --> 0:25:33.560 use this website. I was like, Okay, that's okay, that's weird. Um. 0:25:33.600 --> 0:25:35.920 But on the night of the election, Elder seems to 0:25:35.960 --> 0:25:40.120 kind of claim climb down from the inflammatory like rhetoric 0:25:40.160 --> 0:25:42.800 around the election. In his concession speech, he told supporters, 0:25:43.000 --> 0:25:45.879 let's be gracious and defeat um. So he once the 0:25:45.920 --> 0:25:49.200 actual results were in, he really climbed that down. So 0:25:49.440 --> 0:25:51.560 we can read into that. The other thing I want 0:25:51.600 --> 0:25:54.720 us to read into here is that could this could 0:25:54.800 --> 0:25:58.280 this rhetoric around if we lose that means it was rigged? 0:25:58.440 --> 0:26:01.360 Could that disenfranchise republic Can voters from even showing up 0:26:01.600 --> 0:26:04.239 if they believe that all elections will be stolen from them? 0:26:04.600 --> 0:26:07.400 Will that being that they'll be less Republican turn out 0:26:07.400 --> 0:26:09.240 if there's just if they think that it doesn't matter. 0:26:09.560 --> 0:26:11.720 So that's the other side of things, Like I'm not 0:26:11.760 --> 0:26:14.960 sure if if if the other side effects that this, 0:26:15.080 --> 0:26:19.119 that this rhetoric could have. Yeah, there's an interesting So 0:26:20.720 --> 0:26:22.959 during during the last election like national election cycle, there 0:26:22.960 --> 0:26:24.400 was a bunch of me to use people who weren't 0:26:24.480 --> 0:26:26.840 voting in Florida, And I thought it was really interesting 0:26:26.840 --> 0:26:28.639 because there were there were several people they talked to 0:26:28.680 --> 0:26:30.520 who were like, yeah, I don't vote because last time 0:26:30.520 --> 0:26:32.520 I voted was two thousands and they stole the election, 0:26:33.280 --> 0:26:35.800 which which literally which which yeah, And you know i'd 0:26:35.840 --> 0:26:38.679 say that, yeah, Like, I think it is slightly different 0:26:38.720 --> 0:26:43.679 when like two thousands, when the actually like like literally 0:26:43.760 --> 0:26:45.720 but there was there was the bricks like there there 0:26:45.800 --> 0:26:49.760 there Roger Stone, Yeah, Roger Stone led a riot to 0:26:49.880 --> 0:26:54.320 stop like the votes from being counted, like whatever, weird Bush. 0:26:54.680 --> 0:26:57.560 I think people people got like like a bunch of 0:26:57.560 --> 0:27:00.240 people with like vaguely black names got like their aims 0:27:00.240 --> 0:27:03.200 struck off the like the voting roles. Like there was 0:27:03.240 --> 0:27:06.360 a lot of yeah, but yeah, and and I don't 0:27:06.359 --> 0:27:08.879 I don't know if it'll if it if the effect 0:27:08.960 --> 0:27:15.920 can work that strongly when it's like completely bullshit, I 0:27:16.000 --> 0:27:18.760 think it's Yeah, I don't know, It's it's hard to 0:27:18.760 --> 0:27:23.120 say because it's it's it's unclear whether the voter turnout 0:27:23.200 --> 0:27:25.280 on the because, like you know, there were times where 0:27:25.320 --> 0:27:28.840 they were pulling like fifty fifty between between between Newsom 0:27:28.880 --> 0:27:32.800 and Elder, and it's unclear. I think definitely the big 0:27:32.840 --> 0:27:36.080 advertising push that corporate donors gave to Newsom in the 0:27:36.160 --> 0:27:39.560 month before the election did help get Democratic voter turnout, 0:27:39.600 --> 0:27:42.840 you know, like people voting for news getting people scared 0:27:42.960 --> 0:27:48.360 about fucking is the governor that not was not ineffective, 0:27:48.520 --> 0:27:50.520 that that very much works. That did increase turn out there, 0:27:50.640 --> 0:27:53.359 But I don't know because like with the whole election 0:27:53.359 --> 0:27:56.879 being stolen rhetoric that can both increase Republican voter turnout 0:27:56.880 --> 0:27:58.760 and then there's also the side effect now where maybe 0:27:58.800 --> 0:28:02.359 it could decrease it because they're just disenfranchised about this concept. 0:28:02.680 --> 0:28:04.640 But this is kind of just speculation at this point. 0:28:04.640 --> 0:28:07.439 I don't have actual data backing up this claim right now. 0:28:07.480 --> 0:28:09.679 This is just something that I thought about while running 0:28:09.680 --> 0:28:11.439 this right up, I'm like, huh, I wonder if this 0:28:11.440 --> 0:28:13.640 could be a contributing factor in the future. People really 0:28:13.920 --> 0:28:15.679 I feel like they're always gonna lose. Maybe they just 0:28:15.760 --> 0:28:18.960 not not even are gonna bother um. But it's hard 0:28:19.000 --> 0:28:20.680 to say. It's like, you know, the main reason why 0:28:20.720 --> 0:28:24.600 Elder lost wasn't due to newsom strength. That was because 0:28:24.920 --> 0:28:29.719 Elder is like, it's completely like he it was like 0:28:30.320 --> 0:28:34.800 it was the most yeah, well like wildly unqualified and 0:28:34.880 --> 0:28:38.320 like one of the more extreme candidates like running. And yes, 0:28:38.360 --> 0:28:40.760 he did get a lot of support among Republicans, but 0:28:40.880 --> 0:28:44.560 among moderates and people you know, left of center in 0:28:44.640 --> 0:28:47.560 terms of like an American spectrum. Uh, they're like, yeah, no, 0:28:47.600 --> 0:28:48.840 this is gonna be a disaster if he if he 0:28:48.880 --> 0:28:51.320 gets elected. And that's the main reason why he didn't. Um, 0:28:51.360 --> 0:28:53.800 it's not due to Newsom being great. But I mean 0:28:54.000 --> 0:28:56.240 Sophie did mention a few things that Newsom has done 0:28:56.280 --> 0:28:59.600 since then. Um, so we do do do do you 0:28:59.600 --> 0:29:01.760 want to say the specific details just so I don't 0:29:01.800 --> 0:29:04.320 have to look so if he's famously a big Newsome fan, 0:29:04.440 --> 0:29:12.960 so yeah, not come on. Uh so not to give 0:29:13.040 --> 0:29:15.360 news some credit because this is like an obvious right 0:29:15.400 --> 0:29:19.720 thing to do situation. But um. At the beginning of October, 0:29:19.800 --> 0:29:23.240 the Senate Bill seven was signed into law. It was 0:29:23.240 --> 0:29:25.440 an unanimous vote and Newsom signed off on it to 0:29:25.520 --> 0:29:29.200 give back Bruce's Beach, which was owned by a black family, 0:29:29.560 --> 0:29:35.040 Willa and Charles Bruce back in their land was illegally 0:29:35.120 --> 0:29:38.520 taken away from them. It's a beach front plot in 0:29:38.640 --> 0:29:45.640 Manhattan Beach, and I signed into LATA give it back. Yeah, 0:29:45.800 --> 0:29:47.640 more of that should be done. I mean that is 0:29:47.720 --> 0:29:50.000 kind of the basis of like, you know, that is 0:29:50.160 --> 0:29:52.520 one side of land back, is just giving land back 0:29:52.560 --> 0:29:55.440 to people who used to have it. Yeah, of course 0:29:55.480 --> 0:29:57.520 this is this isn't sally tied to like indigenous stuff. 0:29:57.560 --> 0:29:59.760 But you know, I've seen people make that same comparison 0:29:59.800 --> 0:30:01.480 for Yeah, we should just be doing this more in 0:30:01.480 --> 0:30:04.240 general to a lot of people. Yeah. Yeah, that's I'm 0:30:04.280 --> 0:30:07.600 glad that that was done. It's also now illegal to 0:30:07.680 --> 0:30:11.000 remove a condom without consett in California, which is wait, 0:30:11.080 --> 0:30:15.200 what You're going to have to change a lot of 0:30:15.240 --> 0:30:24.640 things about how you have sex with Californians. Yeah, during intercourse, 0:30:24.680 --> 0:30:27.040 that's the it's the first state to do that, first 0:30:27.080 --> 0:30:30.280 of all. Huh. Yeah, and it's wild because under any 0:30:30.320 --> 0:30:36.400 reasonable definition, that's rape. Yeah, yeah, it's just ra Yeah, 0:30:36.440 --> 0:30:40.280 it's absolutely rape. California also now requires menstal products in 0:30:40.360 --> 0:30:43.880 public schools, so that's bare minimum and that is good. 0:30:45.480 --> 0:30:47.400 I didn't realize that it happened. Yeah, And I want 0:30:47.400 --> 0:30:49.280 to be clear here, I'm not giving you some credit 0:30:49.320 --> 0:30:52.720 for this, but if he had lost the recallection, none 0:30:52.760 --> 0:30:55.680 of this would be happening. No, it's nice that he 0:30:55.920 --> 0:30:58.240 I'm sure some of this was him kind of providing 0:30:58.280 --> 0:31:01.080 a sop to the people who lined up to stop 0:31:01.120 --> 0:31:05.280 the recall. And those are good things that were done. Yeah, 0:31:05.280 --> 0:31:07.680 And I think I think that's sort of an important 0:31:07.720 --> 0:31:10.520 thing to understand about when politicians occasionally do good things. 0:31:10.600 --> 0:31:15.280 It's like they don't do good things because they want 0:31:15.360 --> 0:31:18.600 to do them. They they they do things that benefit 0:31:18.640 --> 0:31:20.920 from you because they're either in some way scared of you, 0:31:21.160 --> 0:31:23.120 or it's because they need to buy they buy you off, 0:31:24.320 --> 0:31:25.960 and and that that is, you know, that is that 0:31:26.040 --> 0:31:28.960 is a legitimate way that good things happen. But I've 0:31:28.960 --> 0:31:32.240 got a couple other Uh, there's been a lot signed 0:31:32.240 --> 0:31:34.480 in recently, So I got a couple of other ones 0:31:34.520 --> 0:31:36.440 that I that I think are relevant to our show. 0:31:36.680 --> 0:31:41.400 California will not streamline extend assisted death law. So that's 0:31:41.480 --> 0:31:43.920 that's good. That reduces the time until terminal patients can 0:31:44.000 --> 0:31:47.840 choose to be given fatal drugs, So good. Starting January one, 0:31:48.120 --> 0:31:51.120 the waiting period required time a patient makes separate oral 0:31:51.120 --> 0:31:53.920 request for medication were dropped to forty hours, down from 0:31:53.960 --> 0:31:58.760 the current minimum fifteen days. That is that is good, 0:31:58.800 --> 0:32:04.000 pretty rad Yeah, I mean there's just there's there's a 0:32:05.720 --> 0:32:09.240 I mean, we'll see if it's it's hard, a lot, 0:32:09.400 --> 0:32:11.320 there's a lot, it's it's hard, it's hard to be 0:32:11.360 --> 0:32:16.479 like worse than Larry Elder. Yeah, that's this one definitely 0:32:16.520 --> 0:32:20.840 would not get through for No, California California Acts a 0:32:20.840 --> 0:32:24.360 lot of strip badges from bad officers, like very vaguely written, 0:32:25.680 --> 0:32:28.000 is very vague. But yeah, well we'll see what happens 0:32:28.000 --> 0:32:29.680 to like, No, none of that stuff would have happened 0:32:29.720 --> 0:32:33.080 under a thing I am surprised at, Like I'm surprised 0:32:33.120 --> 0:32:35.000 that some of those things actually got through because I'm 0:32:35.040 --> 0:32:37.960 I'm surprised that Democratic politicians would actually vote for those 0:32:37.960 --> 0:32:40.760 things we put office. That's why I was like basically 0:32:41.680 --> 0:32:45.520 the condom, Yeah, yeah, absolutely, And I was not expecting 0:32:45.520 --> 0:32:48.040 that to go through some science legislation to extend to 0:32:48.040 --> 0:32:54.960 go cocktails. Wait, all right, that's sure, Okay, more where 0:32:54.960 --> 0:33:00.479 am I to go cocktail heads? Sorry? Alright, so at 0:33:00.560 --> 0:33:02.720 least Larry Al there's not in office. There's till a 0:33:02.800 --> 0:33:06.520 lot of climate issues, and maybe this rhetoric around stealing 0:33:06.560 --> 0:33:09.840 the elections not gonna work every single time they do it. Um, 0:33:10.200 --> 0:33:12.360 that's kind of the main that's the main things that 0:33:12.400 --> 0:33:15.040 I was going to talk about, and it is it is. 0:33:15.320 --> 0:33:17.440 I mean, one of the things that people are talking 0:33:17.480 --> 0:33:19.720 about in a lot of the spaces I generally agree 0:33:19.760 --> 0:33:22.880 with is like the foolishness of voting is harm reduction. 0:33:23.120 --> 0:33:24.800 And there's been a lot of if you want to 0:33:24.800 --> 0:33:27.400 believe that it isn't, there's been a lot of information 0:33:27.440 --> 0:33:31.200 coming up from the Biden administration that will support that belief. Um. 0:33:31.280 --> 0:33:33.560 But what we're seeing right now in California is that 0:33:33.600 --> 0:33:36.440 can be like the these are not none of this 0:33:36.480 --> 0:33:40.040 is going to fundamentally change the major problems that are 0:33:40.080 --> 0:33:43.040 confronting us. But but a bunch of those things are 0:33:43.080 --> 0:33:45.600 going to Like life's going to be easier for some 0:33:45.640 --> 0:33:48.280 little girls whose families don't have much money. You know, 0:33:48.600 --> 0:33:51.480 life got easier for that one family who got their 0:33:51.560 --> 0:33:54.640 land back. Um. You know, potentially it's going to be 0:33:54.640 --> 0:33:57.880 easier to get bad police officer, or to get particularly 0:33:57.920 --> 0:34:00.520 bad police officers off the Street, and that's not that's 0:34:00.520 --> 0:34:04.120 not nothing like when we say voting can be and 0:34:04.160 --> 0:34:07.440 I'm not saying that it usually is, but when we 0:34:07.520 --> 0:34:10.479 it can reduce harm, that's what it means. It means 0:34:10.480 --> 0:34:14.520 that like, oh, some bad things that that would be 0:34:14.680 --> 0:34:17.480 worse are not as bad because of this. Not that 0:34:17.560 --> 0:34:20.880 everything is better. A lot of stuff will be the 0:34:20.920 --> 0:34:23.959 same and is the same in California, Like ecologically, nothing 0:34:24.640 --> 0:34:27.520 sundically fundamentally changed, but some ship's a little easier for 0:34:27.560 --> 0:34:29.440 certain groups of people as a result of some stuff. 0:34:29.520 --> 0:34:34.200 And specific specifically, I think the getting getting more like 0:34:34.360 --> 0:34:38.040 contraceptive products menstrual products inside public schools is one of 0:34:38.080 --> 0:34:40.440 the literally the best things we can do, like like 0:34:40.680 --> 0:34:43.080 for the whole country. It is like something that if 0:34:43.080 --> 0:34:45.919 that was required in every public school, that would make 0:34:46.000 --> 0:34:50.720 so many people's lives better. That ridiculous degree significantly reduces 0:34:50.800 --> 0:34:52.960 harm in a specific way. And I think that just 0:34:53.040 --> 0:34:54.959 because like, yeah, I mean, it's not going to stop 0:34:55.040 --> 0:34:58.680 us all from burning up, um, but that doesn't mean 0:34:58.680 --> 0:35:03.200 it's not worthwhile. Yeah. So those those are the three 0:35:03.200 --> 0:35:05.680 stories that I wanted to give some updates for, um 0:35:05.719 --> 0:35:07.960 because I know, you know, there were changes happened you know, 0:35:08.080 --> 0:35:11.560 very soon after posting those episodes. UM, I still think 0:35:11.600 --> 0:35:13.400 the California ones are worth listening to because they do 0:35:13.480 --> 0:35:16.240 lay out a lot of stuff around around California's climate, 0:35:16.640 --> 0:35:18.480 um and the specific weird stuff that it has with 0:35:18.520 --> 0:35:21.759 its specific weird things that has with its election process. UM. 0:35:21.800 --> 0:35:23.680 I think the line three episodes are going to be 0:35:23.920 --> 0:35:27.160 pretty good to go back to as well. UM, And 0:35:27.200 --> 0:35:30.680 then uh, I at the specific Cop City thing in Atlanta, 0:35:30.719 --> 0:35:33.200 that is the stuff that I am. It's gonna be 0:35:33.200 --> 0:35:35.880 the most like ongoing thing stills because that's going to 0:35:35.920 --> 0:35:38.080 be an ongoing project. So I'm sure we'll come back 0:35:38.080 --> 0:35:41.320 to the Cops City at different points throughout the next 0:35:41.800 --> 0:35:47.560 few months. So that that that that that's the updates. UM. 0:35:47.560 --> 0:35:51.359 Any any any closing notes from either Christopher, Robert or Sophie, Yeah, 0:35:51.520 --> 0:35:55.600 just just I do well excuse me, Okay, sorry Sophie, Sorry, 0:35:56.239 --> 0:35:58.279 just I just just remind him we've said this earlier 0:35:58.280 --> 0:36:01.760 in the episode that like we're just giving you brief 0:36:01.840 --> 0:36:03.919 brief sniff. It's about this stuff. There's a lot there's 0:36:03.920 --> 0:36:05.880 a lot of really good articles online that go go 0:36:05.960 --> 0:36:08.239 deep into these things, and we'll post our sources on 0:36:08.239 --> 0:36:11.360 the website. Yep, yeah, yeah we we we we do. 0:36:11.480 --> 0:36:16.080 We do a good job, I think most of the time. Yes, yes, 0:36:16.120 --> 0:36:20.800 but we're great. Yeah, we're we're the only heroes, that's 0:36:20.840 --> 0:36:24.920 fair to say. Absolutely, But do do not have a 0:36:25.040 --> 0:36:30.439 podcast be the only source of information? Absolutely not. Don't 0:36:30.480 --> 0:36:36.440 listen to if you think more of a of a 0:36:36.520 --> 0:36:39.600 left perspective that is that that goes in some directions, 0:36:39.640 --> 0:36:42.440 we don't. It's going down is a lovely place to 0:36:42.520 --> 0:36:46.680 check out. Margaret Killjoy's um uh live like the World 0:36:46.760 --> 0:36:50.680 is Dying. St Andrew's YouTube channel. Um he does some 0:36:50.680 --> 0:36:54.960 some really incredible stuff. Um, you know, there's all sorts 0:36:55.000 --> 0:36:57.520 of good people out there. And then also like history 0:36:57.520 --> 0:37:00.560 books more than anything like history books straight books for 0:37:00.600 --> 0:37:04.080 the thing that Yeah, if you want to read more 0:37:04.080 --> 0:37:08.440 about the new sub notable laws signed recently, the k 0:37:08.640 --> 0:37:10.759 c r A and Sacramento did a did a really 0:37:10.760 --> 0:37:16.920 good breakdown article. Oh sorry, so it's okay. And and 0:37:16.960 --> 0:37:19.640 as a note, we will be doing more episodes like 0:37:19.719 --> 0:37:23.040 this over time, as like stories that we cover have 0:37:23.520 --> 0:37:26.160 additional things happened to them. This is like we don't 0:37:26.160 --> 0:37:28.319 want to just be like dropping a story and then 0:37:28.360 --> 0:37:32.120 ignoring whatever happens next. Um. Sometimes they don't mean following 0:37:32.200 --> 0:37:34.080 up with people that we're talking to on the ground, 0:37:34.200 --> 0:37:37.040 but you know, we are trying to like keep you 0:37:37.160 --> 0:37:39.440 updated on the things that we think are important, you know, 0:37:39.480 --> 0:37:43.520 even when they end uh in a in a broadly 0:37:43.560 --> 0:37:46.520 positive sense or whatever. And Uh, lastly, what was the 0:37:46.560 --> 0:37:48.560 name of that brisket place in Atlantic, because I'm sure 0:37:48.560 --> 0:37:51.120 people are gonna ask about it. Oh, I don't remember. 0:37:51.239 --> 0:37:53.320 It was some shitty little place in the middle of 0:37:54.360 --> 0:37:58.080 South Atlanta. Um, and like a fucking strip mall that 0:37:58.239 --> 0:38:00.080 was really helpful. I don't remember. So if it was 0:38:00.120 --> 0:38:02.120 like eleven years ago, what do you I don't remember, 0:38:02.560 --> 0:38:06.040 the best brisket you've ever had? And it was but 0:38:06.120 --> 0:38:09.440 the best. Like if you know anything about good barbecue, 0:38:09.520 --> 0:38:11.759 the best barbecue you ever have is either cooked by 0:38:11.800 --> 0:38:14.720 like your uncle or is cooked in some shitty little 0:38:14.719 --> 0:38:17.239 place with a turn that wouldn't pass a code inspection. 0:38:17.360 --> 0:38:20.240 That is true that the more the more codes it violates, 0:38:20.239 --> 0:38:23.080 the better the bisket. Um. Anyway, if you see the 0:38:23.280 --> 0:38:26.200 chef actively ship on the grill, that means just going 0:38:26.239 --> 0:38:31.359 to be incredible. Jesus Christ, Twitter and Instagram, what happened here? 0:38:31.400 --> 0:38:35.560 Poticles media, subscribe to the feed and leave a five 0:38:35.560 --> 0:38:38.759 star of you. That's it. Don't don't don't shoot on 0:38:38.800 --> 0:38:52.520 your brisket, grill on everything. Alright, life, Here's to the 0:38:52.719 --> 0:38:56.840 great American settlers. The millions of you has settled for 0:38:57.040 --> 0:39:01.440 unsatisfying jobs because they paid the bills, and uh, you 0:39:01.560 --> 0:39:04.680 just kind of fell into it, and you know, it's 0:39:04.719 --> 0:39:09.080 like totally fine, just another few decades or so and 0:39:09.120 --> 0:39:12.760 then you can enjoy yourself. Of course, there is something 0:39:12.800 --> 0:39:16.240 else you could do. If you've got something to say. 0:39:16.640 --> 0:39:20.359 You could, I don't know, start up podcast with Spreaker 0:39:20.360 --> 0:39:24.240 from my heart and unleash your creative freedom and spend 0:39:24.320 --> 0:39:28.520 all day researching and talking about stuff you love and 0:39:28.560 --> 0:39:31.719 maybe even earn enough money to one day tell your 0:39:31.840 --> 0:39:37.640 irritating boss as you quit and walk off into the sunset, Hey, 0:39:37.680 --> 0:39:43.720 I'm no settler, I'm an explorer. Spreaker dot com. That's 0:39:44.239 --> 0:39:49.359 spr e a K e er hustle on over today. 0:39:52.600 --> 0:39:55.720 Raphie is the voice of some of the happiest songs 0:39:55.760 --> 0:40:01.080 of our generation, Baby Little So, who is the man 0:40:01.200 --> 0:40:05.880 behind Baby Bluga. Every human being wants to feel respected. 0:40:06.280 --> 0:40:10.919 When we start with, all good things can grow from there. 0:40:11.160 --> 0:40:14.920 I'm Chris Garcia, comedian, new Dad and host of Finding Raffie, 0:40:14.920 --> 0:40:18.160 a new podcast from my Heart Radio and Fatherly. Listen 0:40:18.239 --> 0:40:20.880 every Tuesday on the I Heart Radio app or wherever 0:40:20.960 --> 0:40:24.640 you get your podcasts. This is Roxanne Gay, host of 0:40:24.640 --> 0:40:29.480 The Roxanne Gay Agenda, the Bad Frominast podcast of Your Dreams. Now, 0:40:29.560 --> 0:40:32.880 what is the Roxanne Gay Agenda, you might ask, Well, 0:40:32.960 --> 0:40:35.720 It's a podcast where I'm going to speak my mind 0:40:35.800 --> 0:40:39.080 about what's on my mind, and that could be anything. 0:40:39.840 --> 0:40:43.400 Every week, I will be in conversation with an interesting 0:40:43.520 --> 0:40:45.919 person who has something to say. We're going to talk 0:40:45.960 --> 0:40:50.680 about feminism, race, writing in books, and art, food, pop culture, 0:40:50.880 --> 0:40:55.520 and yes, politics. I started each show with a recommendation. Really, 0:40:55.880 --> 0:40:58.239 I'm just going to share with you a movie or 0:40:58.280 --> 0:41:01.040 a book, or maybe some new sick or a comedy set, 0:41:01.160 --> 0:41:04.000 something that I really want you to be aware of 0:41:04.080 --> 0:41:07.400 and maybe engage with as well. Listen to the Luminary 0:41:07.440 --> 0:41:12.440 original podcast, The Roxanay Agenda, The Bad Feminist Podcast of 0:41:12.480 --> 0:41:15.879 Your Dreams, every Tuesday on the I Heart Radio app, 0:41:16.160 --> 0:41:32.200 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast Garrison, Is 0:41:32.200 --> 0:41:35.919 that good? Is that? The show? No? Just keep going though? Okay, Well, 0:41:36.160 --> 0:41:39.480 it could happen. Here is the show that A tonal 0:41:39.880 --> 0:41:44.239 Noise is my introduction this week because I'm a hack 0:41:44.280 --> 0:41:46.640 in a fraud. Who isn't a hack in a fraud? 0:41:46.920 --> 0:41:51.280 Is is our guest this week. St Andrew. St Andrew, 0:41:51.360 --> 0:41:56.239 you are a solar punk anarchist from Trinidad. UM. You 0:41:56.360 --> 0:42:00.960 have a YouTube channel, UM where you talk about solar punk. 0:42:01.200 --> 0:42:04.280 UM you talked about stuff like seed bombing. Yeah. I'm 0:42:04.320 --> 0:42:05.959 just very excited to have you on the show because 0:42:05.960 --> 0:42:08.719 I'm a big fan of YouTube channel. Thank you, glad 0:42:08.760 --> 0:42:11.480 to be here, big fan of your work as well, Andrew. 0:42:11.520 --> 0:42:15.399 I kind of wanted to start with why this why 0:42:15.520 --> 0:42:19.120 solar punk is important? Because, UM, I think it's easy 0:42:19.200 --> 0:42:20.840 for folks who just kind of skim it to see it. 0:42:20.840 --> 0:42:22.600 It's just like, oh, it's an aesthetic. It's maybe an 0:42:22.680 --> 0:42:26.560 art style or a fiction style. UM. Maybe something that's neat, 0:42:26.640 --> 0:42:29.320 but not something that has like a lot of inherent 0:42:29.480 --> 0:42:32.960 value to people trying to change the world. And obviously 0:42:32.960 --> 0:42:35.600 you disagree with that. I disagree with it to UM. 0:42:35.600 --> 0:42:37.640 A quote I keep coming back to again and again 0:42:37.800 --> 0:42:41.080 is one from Werner Herzog in the nineteen seventies, and 0:42:41.120 --> 0:42:42.799 it was something along the lines of I think that 0:42:42.840 --> 0:42:45.120 without better myths, were destined to go the way of 0:42:45.160 --> 0:42:51.879 the dinosaurs. Um. Actually, of I forget his name right now. 0:42:51.960 --> 0:42:56.120 But there's this excellent, excellent book called The Truth About Stories, 0:42:57.040 --> 0:43:00.000 and I think what it really emphasizes throughout the book 0:43:00.360 --> 0:43:03.920 is the importance of stories on how stories impact how 0:43:03.920 --> 0:43:06.360 we navigate the woot, which is why I sort of 0:43:06.400 --> 0:43:10.520 embraced sua punk, you know, as a story that we 0:43:10.600 --> 0:43:14.640 can work with green forward. Yeah, I think, Um, I 0:43:14.640 --> 0:43:19.240 think it's incredibly important to have better stories, better myths 0:43:19.280 --> 0:43:22.440 because for one thing, I think where the Left falls 0:43:22.560 --> 0:43:27.200 down a lot is not having is accurately diagnosing the 0:43:27.280 --> 0:43:32.560 problems without providing a better look at at the at 0:43:32.560 --> 0:43:35.600 the future, you know. Um. And when the problems are 0:43:35.600 --> 0:43:38.000 when the people who do kind of propose solutions, it's 0:43:38.040 --> 0:43:41.160 often um not in a way people can feel. One 0:43:41.200 --> 0:43:44.600 of the benefits that that that the right has, that 0:43:44.640 --> 0:43:48.960 fascism has, is that they they're very good at providing 0:43:49.000 --> 0:43:51.759 people with myths and providing people with kind of a 0:43:51.840 --> 0:43:56.680 fictional look at at their idealized world that draws people in. 0:43:56.840 --> 0:43:58.920 You know, you can laugh at the right. You know, 0:43:58.960 --> 0:44:00.960 they have a lot of people that work on like 0:44:01.360 --> 0:44:07.040 meta narratives and that's very, very core to their ideology. Um, So, 0:44:07.200 --> 0:44:10.000 I guess where I'd like to start with you, Andrew, 0:44:10.000 --> 0:44:12.000 because this is kind of the first time I think 0:44:12.000 --> 0:44:15.719 we've really talked about solar punk on on this show, 0:44:15.760 --> 0:44:18.720 even though from the beginning before any of these episodes dropped, 0:44:18.760 --> 0:44:21.120 this was always a central part of our discussion about 0:44:21.160 --> 0:44:24.000 what the show was was going to be. Um, would 0:44:24.040 --> 0:44:27.240 you kind of provide an introduction to to what solar 0:44:27.280 --> 0:44:32.480 punk is for our listeners? Sure? Sure, So I would 0:44:32.520 --> 0:44:35.800 say that solar punk is the vision of the future 0:44:36.440 --> 0:44:40.319 that places emphasis on the existing world and how we 0:44:40.440 --> 0:44:43.600 get to that future from where we are now. So 0:44:43.680 --> 0:44:47.880 it emphasizes the need for environmental sustainability, for self governance, 0:44:48.040 --> 0:44:52.160 and for a toronomy and social justice. It emphasizes the 0:44:52.200 --> 0:44:56.960 need for you know, human and ecocentric ends to really 0:44:57.800 --> 0:45:02.400 be in sync, and it aims to really heal the 0:45:02.520 --> 0:45:07.760 current rift between humanity and Nietzsche. It also recognizes, of course, 0:45:07.840 --> 0:45:12.880 that there isn't this binary between climate change happens and 0:45:13.040 --> 0:45:17.400 climate change doesn't happen. Rather, it understands that how we 0:45:17.480 --> 0:45:23.680 navigate it, we uh have a variety of consequences and 0:45:24.080 --> 0:45:26.120 some of the positive, some of the negative, but it's 0:45:26.200 --> 0:45:30.960 up to us to really shape that. Yeah, and it's UM. 0:45:31.000 --> 0:45:33.319 I want to drill into a couple of facets of that. 0:45:33.400 --> 0:45:35.760 But I want to quickly plug one of your YouTube 0:45:35.840 --> 0:45:38.360 videos for folks who kind of want a more involved 0:45:38.719 --> 0:45:42.319 um explanation and background. You have a video called what 0:45:42.480 --> 0:45:45.800 is solar Punk on your channel Saint Andrewism like Andrew 0:45:45.840 --> 0:45:48.640 I s m UM that I think is a fantastic 0:45:48.719 --> 0:45:52.000 introduction not just to like the aesthetics of solar punk, 0:45:52.040 --> 0:45:55.080 but some of the practical some of the practical kind 0:45:55.080 --> 0:45:57.239 of expressions of it. And and two of the ones 0:45:57.320 --> 0:45:59.839 you list is like examples of here's here's what this 0:45:59.880 --> 0:46:02.160 is is like actual praxis, you know, and not just 0:46:02.719 --> 0:46:06.080 an aesthetic is seed bombing um. And then you talk 0:46:06.160 --> 0:46:09.320 about this this very interesting kind of like terra Cotta 0:46:09.480 --> 0:46:12.439 air conditioning, which I think is I think it's neat 0:46:12.480 --> 0:46:15.120 because it's it's one of the problems that I think 0:46:15.160 --> 0:46:20.160 with kind of some versions of of of particularly kind 0:46:20.160 --> 0:46:22.760 of on the more liberal end of of of solar 0:46:22.800 --> 0:46:26.680 punk imagining is just sort of like ways of replacing um, 0:46:26.800 --> 0:46:30.200 ways of gaining the same kind of consumptive benefits that exist, 0:46:30.320 --> 0:46:34.680 I guess not even not even like greenwashing, right washing, greenwashing, 0:46:35.000 --> 0:46:41.719 Like here, let's get the same consumptive benefits. We get scrapers, yes, skyscrapers, 0:46:41.760 --> 0:46:47.359 the same consumerism, same level of you know, destructive, extractive practices. 0:46:47.400 --> 0:46:50.440 But we have some flowers and some trees. So yeah, 0:46:50.760 --> 0:46:53.120 and that's not enough. But at the same time, there 0:46:53.120 --> 0:46:56.840 are things that aren't. Like air conditioning is contributes massively 0:46:56.880 --> 0:46:59.440 to climate change. It's also not a luxury. Like if 0:46:59.440 --> 0:47:01.040 you live in a place where it's a hundred and 0:47:01.040 --> 0:47:04.359 twenty degrees a lot of the summer, that's not a luxury. Yeah, 0:47:04.600 --> 0:47:06.919 this is going from someone in a tropical country. Yeah, 0:47:09.560 --> 0:47:12.799 definitely a necessity. Yeah, So I wonder if you could 0:47:12.800 --> 0:47:16.200 talk about kind of those two, I mean, or if 0:47:16.200 --> 0:47:17.799 you have different ones you'd like to pick, but just 0:47:17.880 --> 0:47:19.720 kind of what you see is sort of the practice 0:47:19.800 --> 0:47:22.680 expressions of solar punk, sort of beyond the aesthetic, although 0:47:22.680 --> 0:47:24.560 we're going to drill into the aesthetics some too, because 0:47:24.560 --> 0:47:27.200 I also think that's important. Right, So, I think some 0:47:27.239 --> 0:47:32.560 of my favorite manifestations of the punk in a practical context, 0:47:33.480 --> 0:47:36.360 things like um gorilla gardening, really gardening is really the 0:47:36.360 --> 0:47:39.600 biggest one because it's one that someone could literally pick 0:47:39.680 --> 0:47:42.880 up and do today or tomorrow, you know, as soon 0:47:42.920 --> 0:47:45.200 as they hear about it, doing about it. Just get 0:47:45.239 --> 0:47:48.440 some clay, get some seeds, you know, and put those 0:47:48.480 --> 0:47:51.279 things together, and as you're walking home or walk into 0:47:51.280 --> 0:47:56.080 the store, just toss them wherever there some free dud um. 0:47:56.080 --> 0:47:59.880 So that's a fun one. There's also, of course things 0:48:00.080 --> 0:48:06.000 like litten one involved, like community gardening and particularly forest gardening, 0:48:06.080 --> 0:48:09.919 because that will provide a level of food autonomy and 0:48:10.640 --> 0:48:13.960 agency for people who have been healing it for a 0:48:14.000 --> 0:48:18.040 long time from the process of food production. UM. They're 0:48:18.080 --> 0:48:23.279 also practices like compassing or corpach ng and it's like 0:48:23.840 --> 0:48:29.080 a way to produce lumber without chopping down a whole 0:48:29.120 --> 0:48:32.160 set of trees, so you are able to get the 0:48:32.160 --> 0:48:37.759 wood from the trees, but the tree remains alive. UM. 0:48:37.800 --> 0:48:43.879 There's also things like, of course solar powered technology, whether 0:48:43.920 --> 0:48:50.480 it be algae based UM windows that you know, extract 0:48:50.600 --> 0:48:56.240 energy from the sun, or solar sales or solar ovens 0:48:57.040 --> 0:49:00.439 uh or like the terra Cotta their condition in which, 0:49:00.640 --> 0:49:04.880 by the way I learned recently contrary work in a 0:49:05.000 --> 0:49:08.759 human environment. Yeah, but yeah, there are a lot of 0:49:08.840 --> 0:49:11.960 difference opportunities there also there are things like you know, 0:49:12.040 --> 0:49:17.120 tool shares and make up spaces and seed libraries, all 0:49:17.160 --> 0:49:23.120 different ways to sort of bring it into fruition that is. Yeah, 0:49:23.239 --> 0:49:29.480 and I uh, I think a lot of that's really valuable. UM. 0:49:29.520 --> 0:49:34.239 I'm interested in in parts sort of your your attitude 0:49:34.280 --> 0:49:40.520 on UM what. Uh let me think about how the 0:49:40.560 --> 0:49:46.400 phrase this, UM, what do you think are kind of 0:49:46.400 --> 0:49:48.359 the things as we talk about sort of the things 0:49:48.400 --> 0:49:51.880 that can be at least potentially replaced UM with with 0:49:52.000 --> 0:49:55.640 less extract of less consumptive methods. Is sort of an 0:49:55.640 --> 0:49:58.200 example of solar punk practice is replacing those things. There's 0:49:58.239 --> 0:50:01.440 also things that we're not going to be able to 0:50:01.480 --> 0:50:04.040 have if we actually want to live in a more 0:50:04.120 --> 0:50:08.320 sustainable UM future that that doesn't contribute to some of 0:50:08.360 --> 0:50:10.720 the nightmares that we're all going to be increasingly facing. 0:50:11.480 --> 0:50:15.000 UM you're you know, And again I think it's it's 0:50:15.040 --> 0:50:18.680 telling that so much of kind of the future fantasies 0:50:18.760 --> 0:50:21.960 of that are written by people who come from you know, 0:50:22.040 --> 0:50:24.839 my part of the world. The United States focus on 0:50:24.880 --> 0:50:29.239 like kind of post scarcity methods of of guaranteeing the 0:50:29.239 --> 0:50:32.960 continuation of consumption just through in some cases like fantastic 0:50:33.040 --> 0:50:37.720 methods um you know, magical three D printers and the like. Um. 0:50:37.840 --> 0:50:39.520 You come from a very different part of the world, 0:50:39.600 --> 0:50:41.840 very different perspective, what do you see as the things 0:50:41.840 --> 0:50:46.200 that like we're going to have to give up Coming 0:50:46.239 --> 0:50:49.600 from a country that is actually reliant on oil and 0:50:49.760 --> 0:50:52.920 natural gas production, we have to get rid of cause 0:50:53.800 --> 0:50:57.520 we definitely absolutely have to get rid of cause um 0:50:57.680 --> 0:51:03.319 free to ships as well, and really the whole way 0:51:03.440 --> 0:51:06.680 that you know, global supply chains are structured right now. 0:51:07.120 --> 0:51:09.160 Not to say that they wouldn't be any sort of 0:51:09.640 --> 0:51:14.160 global um sharing of resources in the future, but the 0:51:14.200 --> 0:51:17.000 way that it's happening right now, it can't continue to 0:51:17.040 --> 0:51:20.719 go on. We can't continue to structure our cities, in 0:51:20.719 --> 0:51:25.760 our lives around cause you know, and other methods of 0:51:26.520 --> 0:51:31.120 gascuselin transportation because we're literally going to run out. And 0:51:31.120 --> 0:51:35.160 we've known this for a long time, but it's nearing. 0:51:35.280 --> 0:51:39.600 The day is nearing Clusia and cluso, and yeah, we 0:51:39.800 --> 0:51:43.080 we have to find a way to do without it. Yeah, 0:51:43.160 --> 0:51:46.480 and it's it's I think tell like, there's a couple 0:51:46.480 --> 0:51:48.400 of things that are important. One of them is you 0:51:48.440 --> 0:51:52.400 can't just say we have to stop global trade because 0:51:52.680 --> 0:51:57.160 in global travel, because the people have have sought and 0:51:57.239 --> 0:51:59.600 done that for as long as there have been people 0:51:59.640 --> 0:52:02.600 in one former another. It's it's a fundamentally human thing. 0:52:03.040 --> 0:52:06.000 But there are aspects of it, like you know, expecting 0:52:06.040 --> 0:52:08.640 that every kind of fruit and vegetable will be available 0:52:08.719 --> 0:52:10.520 year round, which is certainly thing that we in the 0:52:10.600 --> 0:52:15.439 United States expect. Um. That doesn't that that's not part 0:52:15.440 --> 0:52:17.960 of a realistic future. Um. And if it's part of 0:52:17.960 --> 0:52:19.440 the future, then it's only going to be part of 0:52:19.480 --> 0:52:22.400 the future for an ever shrinking chunk of the country. 0:52:22.400 --> 0:52:24.920 And you can see that in sort of um or 0:52:25.080 --> 0:52:26.799 of the of the West, and you can see that 0:52:26.920 --> 0:52:30.120 in kind of um the like what we're dealing with 0:52:30.280 --> 0:52:32.760 right now with like the supply line shortages and failures, 0:52:32.800 --> 0:52:35.120 and like one of the I think the symbols of 0:52:35.120 --> 0:52:38.080 how far we have to go in my country is 0:52:38.360 --> 0:52:40.040 the degree to which people are freaking out by the 0:52:40.040 --> 0:52:43.480 fact that Christmas presents might be late. Um. Let alone 0:52:43.480 --> 0:52:45.840 being like, yeah, you might not be able to buy coffee, 0:52:46.200 --> 0:52:49.640 um um ever, or all the time, you know, you 0:52:49.719 --> 0:52:53.160 might not be able to get tomatoes in December um 0:52:53.200 --> 0:52:58.600 which UM. I think one benefits to grilla gattening. And 0:52:58.600 --> 0:53:02.400 that's what's a mindset is as you learn to so 0:53:02.760 --> 0:53:05.520 you also learn to reap. Right. So a lot of 0:53:05.520 --> 0:53:07.520 people who get into grilled gardening aliso end up getting 0:53:07.520 --> 0:53:10.360 into foraging, and they are absent stuff you could download 0:53:10.360 --> 0:53:12.920 that allow you to, you know, learn how to identify 0:53:13.120 --> 0:53:15.840 plants in your area. And we surprise the number of 0:53:15.880 --> 0:53:18.880 plants in your area that are you know, useful for 0:53:19.080 --> 0:53:24.680 teas or for salads or for whatever purposes that can 0:53:24.719 --> 0:53:28.759 be used as replacements. I'm not sure if they could 0:53:28.800 --> 0:53:34.360 replace coffee, but they could be beneficial, um in recognizing 0:53:34.960 --> 0:53:42.440 how we have to live with our local ecosystems. Basically, yeah, 0:53:42.560 --> 0:53:44.520 and a big you know, when you talk about living 0:53:44.600 --> 0:53:47.360 learning how to live with our ecosystem stuff like planting 0:53:47.520 --> 0:53:51.040 um forest gardens and the like or food forest, I 0:53:51.080 --> 0:53:53.960 think is the term UM. I think something that has 0:53:54.040 --> 0:53:57.960 to be discussed is the matter of indigenous sovereignty, especially 0:53:58.040 --> 0:54:01.520 when we're talking about you know, it's not just you know, 0:54:01.600 --> 0:54:04.600 North America, a lot of chunks of the globe Indigenous 0:54:04.640 --> 0:54:08.279 people had spent you know, in some cases thousands of 0:54:08.320 --> 0:54:16.640 generations setting forests up in order to sustainably produce food. Um. 0:54:16.719 --> 0:54:20.640 And when when colonialism arrived, that was often just seen 0:54:20.680 --> 0:54:22.600 as like, oh, this is this is these are wild 0:54:22.640 --> 0:54:25.319 places for us to for us to extract or tear 0:54:25.400 --> 0:54:29.480 down and replace with mono cultures, you know, single crops. Um. 0:54:29.520 --> 0:54:34.400 And so a big part of actually building back that capacity, 0:54:34.400 --> 0:54:36.680 the capacity of us to to survive off of the 0:54:36.760 --> 0:54:41.720 food that can sustainably grow where we live is looking 0:54:41.760 --> 0:54:45.120 back to those indigenous methods and and also um, you know, 0:54:45.840 --> 0:54:50.040 giving back land in a lot of cases, um And yeah, 0:54:50.680 --> 0:54:52.480 that's something you talk about in your videos that I 0:54:52.480 --> 0:54:55.960 think is really important to um to to to to 0:54:56.160 --> 0:54:59.799 explain to people. Yeah, I mean there's there's really is 0:54:59.800 --> 0:55:05.319 no way to separate the violance and oppressive institution of 0:55:05.440 --> 0:55:11.200 clunealism with the equosido Nietzsche of modern states. You know, 0:55:11.280 --> 0:55:16.120 those two are deeply intertwined, deeply married together. And so 0:55:16.280 --> 0:55:21.000 you can't fight climate change without addressing the issue of 0:55:21.000 --> 0:55:27.720 severnty of indigenous serenity and land back. Yeah. It's um, 0:55:27.719 --> 0:55:29.880 it's really interesting. I've been I've been up hunting on 0:55:29.960 --> 0:55:32.719 mountain Hood with a friend who is who went to 0:55:32.760 --> 0:55:36.240 school for like forestry management, And as we were driving 0:55:36.280 --> 0:55:38.520 way to drive through a chunk of the reservation in 0:55:38.600 --> 0:55:41.560 order to get to the BLM land where we're able 0:55:41.600 --> 0:55:44.160 to hunt, and he pointed it out, and once he did, 0:55:44.200 --> 0:55:48.200 it was immediately obvious just how different the land under 0:55:48.239 --> 0:55:51.799 indigenous control looked from the land, you know, just feed 0:55:51.840 --> 0:55:54.960 away that was being managed by the federal government in 0:55:55.040 --> 0:55:57.440 terms of like how much better the forest management was, 0:55:57.480 --> 0:56:00.360 how much how much smarter it was it was manage 0:56:00.400 --> 0:56:03.640 in order to reduce the chances of like a ladder 0:56:03.719 --> 0:56:06.720 fire that that actually kills you know, the trees and whatnot. 0:56:07.280 --> 0:56:09.359 There's this whole thing blowing up on Twitter right now 0:56:09.400 --> 0:56:13.040 where you've got a chunk of Marxists tour are trying 0:56:13.040 --> 0:56:18.680 to frame land back as uh, just like shifting ownership 0:56:18.719 --> 0:56:21.200 of resources, which I think is really missing the point. 0:56:21.760 --> 0:56:26.240 But I find interesting about Twitter is that the exact 0:56:26.280 --> 0:56:30.040 same discourses are repeated over and over and over again. 0:56:30.320 --> 0:56:34.080 So I remember this exact conversation happening around this time 0:56:34.160 --> 0:56:38.319 last year, around April last year, um earlier this year 0:56:38.360 --> 0:56:41.359 as well. It's just the same discourses get recycled over 0:56:41.400 --> 0:56:43.520 and over again, and it's reached a point for me 0:56:43.560 --> 0:56:47.640 when I realized that these people don't want to learn 0:56:47.680 --> 0:56:50.440 about land back or what it really means because they 0:56:50.480 --> 0:56:55.440 are invested in the structure as it exists and they 0:56:55.480 --> 0:57:00.560 don't want to have to interrogate that. So, Yeah, this 0:57:00.680 --> 0:57:04.400 will out to be an interesting thing I've known. Yeah, 0:57:04.480 --> 0:57:09.400 and it's UM, it's it's it's frustrating. UM. I guess 0:57:09.400 --> 0:57:13.360 that that acts as like a general uh description of 0:57:13.719 --> 0:57:19.120 Twitter discourse, but certainly does. Yeah. I think it's I 0:57:19.160 --> 0:57:22.600 think it's telling the degree to which people, even on 0:57:22.600 --> 0:57:25.600 the left treat it as a fantasy as opposed to 0:57:26.880 --> 0:57:32.920 doggedly pragmatic UM and and proven so like proven by 0:57:33.240 --> 0:57:35.880 like like you know, like you can read you in 0:57:35.960 --> 0:57:38.720 reports that will that will essentially say land back in 0:57:38.720 --> 0:57:41.280 the space of a five page you know, study on 0:57:41.320 --> 0:57:45.360 how indigenous land management functions a great deal better than 0:57:45.520 --> 0:57:47.800 UM than a lot of the stuff that's like centralized 0:57:47.800 --> 0:57:50.080 by the federal government, where we're like, our federal government 0:57:50.120 --> 0:57:53.760 is terrible at land management. UM. And it's part of 0:57:53.800 --> 0:57:56.240 the it's part of the problem. I think one of 0:57:56.280 --> 0:57:59.000 the things that that excites me about solar punk as 0:57:59.040 --> 0:58:01.920 an aesthetic and idea is getting back to this relationship 0:58:02.000 --> 0:58:04.640 with the land as opposed to talking about just preserving 0:58:04.680 --> 0:58:09.640 it um as talking about managing it. Because because none 0:58:09.640 --> 0:58:11.720 of our none of the land that people live on 0:58:12.400 --> 0:58:15.240 is like wild in the sense that people mean it 0:58:15.320 --> 0:58:19.040 as it's been cultivated. And that's that's the thing, right. 0:58:19.320 --> 0:58:24.760 The whole philosophy of you know, um land preservation as 0:58:25.040 --> 0:58:28.480 was taken up by the US government with the whole 0:58:28.600 --> 0:58:31.600 um you know, you can stop forest fires kind of 0:58:31.600 --> 0:58:34.880 thing ended up leading to more forest fires downline, because 0:58:35.880 --> 0:58:38.400 they we have a rule in the ecosystem not just 0:58:38.480 --> 0:58:41.040 there to stand back from a fire and to observe it. 0:58:41.320 --> 0:58:45.120 So we don't do our part to manage the underbrush 0:58:45.200 --> 0:58:49.200 and whatnots and clear away and exercise you know, controlled fires, 0:58:49.760 --> 0:58:51.360 but we end up in the situation we're in today, 0:58:51.960 --> 0:58:59.120 you know, cultivation not just sterile preservation. Now. One of 0:58:59.120 --> 0:59:01.760 the things that you talk about well because because one 0:59:01.760 --> 0:59:03.960 of the more frustrating discourses this is not just a 0:59:04.000 --> 0:59:06.360 Twitter thing, this has been going on for years, is 0:59:06.400 --> 0:59:10.520 the discourse around GMO crops. And usually I would say, 0:59:10.560 --> 0:59:13.800 like the two most commonly heard sides are GMOs are 0:59:13.800 --> 0:59:18.960 bad because you know, monsanto cancer whatever, or GMOs are good. 0:59:19.080 --> 0:59:22.760 Um end end thought. Um. And the thing that you 0:59:22.840 --> 0:59:26.480 point out, which is I think the accurate take is GMOs. 0:59:27.440 --> 0:59:30.320 The preponderance of evidence says that, like, there's nothing inherently 0:59:30.400 --> 0:59:34.040 dangerous about genetically modified crops, but the way in which 0:59:34.080 --> 0:59:37.240 they're often used in order to create these massive mono 0:59:37.320 --> 0:59:40.320 cultures is really toxic. So there's a lot of promise 0:59:40.920 --> 0:59:44.360 um for GMOs in terms of keeping our our existence 0:59:44.400 --> 0:59:47.640 on this planet sustainable. But what's not sustainable is the 0:59:47.720 --> 0:59:51.600 kind of industrialized agriculture where you have ten thousand acres 0:59:51.640 --> 0:59:55.960 of one thing which just doesn't happen in nature exactly exactly. 0:59:55.960 --> 0:59:59.320 And if you look at how genetic modification took at 0:59:59.400 --> 1:00:03.040 least at to you know, all advanced funds in genetic 1:00:03.120 --> 1:00:06.720 modification technology. UM, I'm not how many people are familiar 1:00:06.760 --> 1:00:11.160 with the dozens upon dozens, if not hundreds of varieties 1:00:11.240 --> 1:00:14.680 of just corn they were present in the America's prior 1:00:14.680 --> 1:00:17.880 to the colonization. A lot of those varieties were wiped 1:00:17.920 --> 1:00:20.960 out or were suppressed in fear of these mono cultures. 1:00:21.360 --> 1:00:25.320 But if we're able to cultivate the diversity of these 1:00:25.360 --> 1:00:28.760 crops and maybe bring some of them back through jestic modification, 1:00:29.320 --> 1:00:32.160 that would really help us with you know, food resilience 1:00:32.560 --> 1:00:38.240 in a world with an increasingly unpredictable climate. Yeah, yeah, 1:00:38.360 --> 1:00:40.680 I think that. I mean, I think you said it perfectly. 1:00:41.680 --> 1:00:43.640 I want to move back to kind of what I 1:00:43.720 --> 1:00:47.280 introduced the episode with, which is talking about the value 1:00:47.320 --> 1:00:51.120 of of fiction and myth making in a in a 1:00:51.240 --> 1:00:53.920 very pragmatic sense. I guess I'll start by saying, I 1:00:53.920 --> 1:00:56.400 think one of the clearest signs of the danger that 1:00:56.480 --> 1:01:00.400 we're in and how toxic our society has gotten. Um 1:01:00.440 --> 1:01:04.120 And I am speaking from a primarily US centric standpoint here, 1:01:04.160 --> 1:01:05.920 but I don't think it's unique to the United States. 1:01:06.440 --> 1:01:09.760 Is the extent to which trust me um as as 1:01:09.760 --> 1:01:14.919 the saying is when the US sneeze, So anytime there's 1:01:14.960 --> 1:01:19.480 some phenomenon happening in the US, there are the coffee cuts. Yea. 1:01:20.800 --> 1:01:22.960 And I do think this is pretty global. I mean 1:01:23.000 --> 1:01:26.480 you see it in like South Korean films and all over. 1:01:26.720 --> 1:01:29.160 I know what you're gonna say, Yeah, the obsession with 1:01:29.760 --> 1:01:32.520 apocalypse and when we when we go to the future, 1:01:32.560 --> 1:01:35.720 it's always a dystopia. Um, there's a degree to which 1:01:35.760 --> 1:01:40.520 we've almost forgotten how to imagine utopia or even not 1:01:40.600 --> 1:01:42.840 just utopia, just a way of living that is an 1:01:42.920 --> 1:01:45.479 improvement in a lot of ways of future that's better. 1:01:45.680 --> 1:01:48.200 We've forgotten to do both utopian fiction and any just 1:01:48.280 --> 1:01:51.080 kind of like positive fiction in a lot of ways, 1:01:51.400 --> 1:01:55.080 because yeah, it's understandable because the world is kind of 1:01:55.160 --> 1:01:56.960 terrible right now in a lot of in a lot 1:01:56.960 --> 1:02:00.320 of ways. But there's also there's been utopian fiction inside 1:02:00.360 --> 1:02:03.120 other terrible worlds as well. I think just the modern 1:02:04.120 --> 1:02:08.240 interconnected media sphere has really rewarded this type of like 1:02:08.400 --> 1:02:11.919 dystopian and collapse based apocalypse fiction. Yeah, and I'm sure 1:02:12.000 --> 1:02:14.960 that's that's worth interrogating why, but it is a problem 1:02:14.960 --> 1:02:17.440 that needs to be solved. Yeah, and it is, and 1:02:17.440 --> 1:02:19.640 and you're I think it's important. And it's not entirely 1:02:19.680 --> 1:02:21.600 based in how fucked up things are, because like when 1:02:21.600 --> 1:02:23.840 the first Star Trek came out, we were at like 1:02:23.920 --> 1:02:27.440 the height of the Cold War. Things were terrible. There 1:02:27.520 --> 1:02:29.840 was a lot of utopian fiction during World War Two. 1:02:30.120 --> 1:02:33.240 During World War two, UM, I will always be impressed 1:02:33.240 --> 1:02:36.840 by the fact that Gene Roddenberry saw it as incredibly 1:02:36.880 --> 1:02:39.800 important both to be like, okay, well in the future, 1:02:40.000 --> 1:02:41.640 like in the middle of the Civil rights movement. In 1:02:41.640 --> 1:02:45.240 the future we will have overcome like racism, but not 1:02:45.320 --> 1:02:47.160 just that, but like I'm gonna I'm gonna stick a 1:02:47.240 --> 1:02:50.080 Russian on the bridge too, because nations are going to 1:02:50.160 --> 1:02:53.960 end as a concept and like this stuff won't matter. Um, 1:02:54.000 --> 1:02:59.680 And that just that kind of utopian fiction, at least 1:02:59.680 --> 1:03:02.320 at this at the scale of popularity that you know, 1:03:02.400 --> 1:03:05.560 Star Trek wasn't its time just isn't present anymore. And 1:03:05.600 --> 1:03:09.240 I that's tremendously worrying to me. And I see a 1:03:09.280 --> 1:03:13.280 lot of hope in in Solar Punk for that, um. 1:03:13.320 --> 1:03:15.520 And I guess for starters, I'm interested in in your 1:03:15.560 --> 1:03:18.440 thoughts on this, and you're interested in Andrew, what you 1:03:18.480 --> 1:03:23.000 think is like the pragmatic value of of of positive 1:03:23.920 --> 1:03:29.360 a fiction that that that imagines a better world. Yes, 1:03:29.480 --> 1:03:36.200 so I've done probably I think I've done like two 1:03:36.480 --> 1:03:40.040 videos on Soula Punk soufar um, two major videos on 1:03:40.080 --> 1:03:42.800 Sila Punk, as well as a smaller video two other 1:03:42.840 --> 1:03:47.240 smaller videos. Um. And what I've seen in the comments 1:03:47.480 --> 1:03:50.000 and in the general social media reaction again and again 1:03:50.640 --> 1:03:53.960 is sol the Punk saved my life. You know, Sola 1:03:54.000 --> 1:03:56.960 Punk has given me hoop. You know, I was slipping 1:03:57.000 --> 1:04:00.800 into the spare. But this video really gave me a 1:04:00.960 --> 1:04:03.760 jump start to try something new and to start a 1:04:03.840 --> 1:04:09.560 fresh and to pursue action as opposed toggest lying down 1:04:09.680 --> 1:04:15.800 and taking whatever comes next. And that that is it 1:04:16.040 --> 1:04:20.200 for me. You know, I think the fact that Sulla 1:04:20.280 --> 1:04:25.880 punk offers like an energizing vision. It's not just a vision, 1:04:25.920 --> 1:04:29.520 it's an energizing vision because in every step of the way, 1:04:30.880 --> 1:04:33.400 it shows what you can do. You know when you 1:04:33.400 --> 1:04:36.640 show it. When you look at sula punk art or um, 1:04:37.040 --> 1:04:40.520 you look at the small but growing genre of sulla 1:04:40.560 --> 1:04:45.800 punk literary media, or you know, you look at but 1:04:45.880 --> 1:04:48.520 there's don't have many silpunk video games right now, but 1:04:49.280 --> 1:04:51.800 hopefully there will be in the future. When you look 1:04:51.800 --> 1:04:55.600 at the various forms of silapunk media that are coming 1:04:55.600 --> 1:04:59.720 out and people's responses to them, you see that it's 1:04:59.760 --> 1:05:03.680 not like as all mentioning like Star Trek, where it's 1:05:03.680 --> 1:05:07.960 all this far our technology that we can only aspire 1:05:08.040 --> 1:05:10.200 to for now. You know, sol the punk is something 1:05:10.240 --> 1:05:14.000 that you can literally put in your backyard or your 1:05:14.080 --> 1:05:18.520 balcony or your home, or your school or your community. 1:05:18.960 --> 1:05:20.440 You know, you could put these things in place like 1:05:20.560 --> 1:05:22.880 from now, you know, and you can incorporate it into 1:05:22.920 --> 1:05:26.040 your politics as you know, as they are, and they 1:05:26.040 --> 1:05:29.040 could also help to push your politics forward, you know, 1:05:29.080 --> 1:05:32.880 because through solar punk, we can open up discussions about Okay, 1:05:33.280 --> 1:05:38.480 so how do we ensure that people live comfortably within 1:05:38.600 --> 1:05:43.720 the parameters of you know, the Earth's carrying capacity? You know, 1:05:43.880 --> 1:05:47.160 you open up a discussions about indigenous soevereignty. You can 1:05:47.280 --> 1:05:52.560 discussions about, um, the relationship between the Goloble North and 1:05:52.600 --> 1:05:57.800 the global South, and responsibility with regard to our response 1:05:57.880 --> 1:06:00.440 to climate change. Well, you're en up a lot of 1:06:00.480 --> 1:06:05.240 different discussions through the realm of sulla punk. It energizes people, 1:06:05.320 --> 1:06:09.880 as I said, and yeah, I think that is its 1:06:10.120 --> 1:06:16.280 pargmatic purpose. It doesn't stand alone, of course, but it 1:06:16.360 --> 1:06:21.919 is a driving force. Yeah. Would you kind of give 1:06:21.920 --> 1:06:24.440 out a list of if people are you know, if 1:06:24.440 --> 1:06:27.640 this is someone's first introduction to the concept of solar punk, 1:06:28.000 --> 1:06:30.600 what is some reading you want to draw people towards. 1:06:30.600 --> 1:06:32.280 What are some fiction like I know you mentioned The 1:06:32.360 --> 1:06:38.040 Dispossessed by Laguin, right, um, which often gets cited. Um. Yeah, 1:06:38.240 --> 1:06:40.560 I'm interested in kind of other other recommendations you might 1:06:40.600 --> 1:06:45.160 have for our listeners. Are that right? So? UM. I'm 1:06:45.200 --> 1:06:47.280 still getting into the genre myself, so I don't have 1:06:47.520 --> 1:06:52.840 too many UM recommendations. There are some UM decent short 1:06:52.880 --> 1:06:57.880 story collections UM like sun Vaults by a couple of 1:06:57.880 --> 1:07:03.320 different authors. There's also multi species Cities, so the punk 1:07:03.680 --> 1:07:07.600 urban futures UM. And the one I read most recently 1:07:07.840 --> 1:07:13.000 was Ecotopia, which is quite is much older than all 1:07:13.040 --> 1:07:17.120 the others. It's actually a book that was published in 1:07:19.080 --> 1:07:23.720 UM and not all aspects of its politics things I 1:07:23.760 --> 1:07:29.440 agree with, but I think for a first UM it 1:07:29.560 --> 1:07:31.040 was one of the really the first of its kind 1:07:31.480 --> 1:07:37.080 in that sort of equo utopian genre that really laid 1:07:37.080 --> 1:07:40.320 out what this society would look like. UM. The book 1:07:40.320 --> 1:07:43.680 is structured in a series of novel entries and notebook 1:07:43.720 --> 1:07:47.280 reports by a journalists from the United States who has 1:07:47.960 --> 1:07:51.560 gone to this country called Ecotopia, which is sort of 1:07:51.560 --> 1:07:58.440 where the Pacific Northwest States are, and he's basically breaking 1:07:58.440 --> 1:08:00.640 down He's going to different parts of the country and 1:08:00.720 --> 1:08:04.080 breaking down how they have lived and how they have 1:08:04.160 --> 1:08:11.760 decided structure their lives. UM. And even though not every 1:08:11.800 --> 1:08:14.400 aspect of it is one that I would want to 1:08:14.400 --> 1:08:21.160 see implemented, I still think that it really sparks the 1:08:21.160 --> 1:08:25.120 imagination really gets you thinking, well, maybe I wouldn't do 1:08:25.200 --> 1:08:27.479 it this week, but how else could this be done? 1:08:28.000 --> 1:08:33.000 And I think the capacity for stupunk stories suggest generate 1:08:33.120 --> 1:08:37.760 that thought and generate one's imagination is very useful in 1:08:37.800 --> 1:08:40.240 a world where we don't really get to use our 1:08:40.240 --> 1:08:49.040 imagination as much, not really since childhood, you know. And um, yeah, 1:08:49.160 --> 1:08:54.160 I I think it's often understated the degree to which 1:08:54.560 --> 1:08:59.400 using your imagination is a vitally necessary part of actual 1:08:59.479 --> 1:09:03.519 radical politics. Um. And I think there's a lot of 1:09:03.560 --> 1:09:06.679 people who consider themselves radicals, you know, some of these 1:09:06.760 --> 1:09:10.280 some of these not to you know, slam every Marxist 1:09:10.360 --> 1:09:12.280 Leninist on the planet, but certainly some of the ones 1:09:12.320 --> 1:09:14.760 who were coming up with these bad faith criticisms of 1:09:14.840 --> 1:09:17.640 land back. It's like, you're not a radical, You're a 1:09:17.680 --> 1:09:20.320 conservative who wants to go back to a different kind 1:09:20.360 --> 1:09:23.559 of problematic thing. Um. It's more the fact that the 1:09:23.600 --> 1:09:27.000 Soviet Union poisoned like the largest body of water in Europe. 1:09:27.439 --> 1:09:30.280 You know, all the different things that the Soviet Union 1:09:30.280 --> 1:09:33.440 did that were horrible for the environment and extractive. And 1:09:33.520 --> 1:09:37.320 it's interesting that, you know, are these people who call 1:09:37.400 --> 1:09:44.560 themselves radicals, but the very foost um. Encounter with a 1:09:44.680 --> 1:09:48.280 radical idea, the foost instinct is to shut down. The 1:09:48.360 --> 1:09:53.760 whost instinct is to just pushed back against it. Whereas 1:09:55.040 --> 1:09:57.360 not to my own corner or anything. But you know, 1:09:57.400 --> 1:10:01.479 when I see an idea that I haven't encountered before 1:10:02.120 --> 1:10:07.000 that may seem strange to me, that challenges my precontinutions, 1:10:07.000 --> 1:10:12.160 my first reaction is not to shout about how this 1:10:12.240 --> 1:10:15.719 goes against everything then, and said, you know, my first 1:10:15.720 --> 1:10:20.840 reaction is to investigate it and to open space for 1:10:20.880 --> 1:10:23.000 it in my mind, to really, you know, tune it 1:10:23.040 --> 1:10:27.439 around and imagine what it might look like and how 1:10:27.479 --> 1:10:33.360 it might fit with what I have learned about before. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely, 1:10:33.479 --> 1:10:37.800 I mean I think that's that's that's great advice for 1:10:37.960 --> 1:10:43.519 radical politics. It's also just good life advice, Yeah, especially 1:10:43.520 --> 1:10:47.080 for engaging with ideas that you are less keen on 1:10:47.160 --> 1:10:50.240 at the moment or or or just unaware of. Yeah. 1:10:50.960 --> 1:10:53.120 I mean, my whole thing is if I have like 1:10:53.200 --> 1:10:57.679 a strong gut reaction to something, it might be because 1:10:58.400 --> 1:11:02.240 it may be hitting a part of me that might 1:11:02.280 --> 1:11:07.720 be benefiting from that system, you know. I mean I 1:11:07.760 --> 1:11:10.200 don't benefit from the system in a lot of respects. 1:11:10.240 --> 1:11:13.519 You know, as a black guy from the Caribbean, but 1:11:14.680 --> 1:11:17.800 as a man, as in as a sit sis headman. 1:11:18.040 --> 1:11:21.080 You know, I do have privileges that I must be 1:11:21.080 --> 1:11:25.000 aware of and I can't just like be so quick 1:11:25.040 --> 1:11:28.640 to shut down you know, something that might even a 1:11:28.640 --> 1:11:32.439 bit uncomfortable, you know, Yeah, I think that's such a 1:11:32.520 --> 1:11:36.600 valuable thing to keep in mind, especially as a a 1:11:36.680 --> 1:11:39.080 more or less sis white guy like a you know, 1:11:39.120 --> 1:11:42.720 a significant number of people listening are if you're uncomfortable 1:11:42.720 --> 1:11:45.320 by a new idea? Is it? Is it because the 1:11:45.400 --> 1:11:48.000 idea is bad? Or is because it strikes at an 1:11:48.040 --> 1:11:50.080 area in which you may not even have like thought 1:11:50.120 --> 1:11:54.400 about being privileged, like I'm I'm uncomfortable I had even 1:11:54.439 --> 1:11:56.640 though there's no I have no intellectual argument against it 1:11:56.680 --> 1:12:00.639 with the idea of of ending, are you of cars 1:12:00.720 --> 1:12:03.200 as they exist? Because I love I love to drive. 1:12:03.280 --> 1:12:06.919 But that's also heavily rooted in in in tremendous privilege 1:12:07.000 --> 1:12:13.840 on my behalf um American culture and stuffy and um 1:12:13.920 --> 1:12:15.680 you know, we we we we did talk about that 1:12:15.720 --> 1:12:18.000 a bit and the opening episodes of season two, the 1:12:18.080 --> 1:12:20.600 idea that like a more you know, when we we 1:12:20.680 --> 1:12:22.880 kind of had our little utopian ending the idea that like, 1:12:22.880 --> 1:12:25.519 well maybe you'd have a car that's communally owned and 1:12:25.640 --> 1:12:28.759 used for certain tasks. But you know, the idea of 1:12:28.760 --> 1:12:31.599 of of car culture as the center of a city 1:12:31.640 --> 1:12:36.439 is um is death. It's just death. When we talked 1:12:36.439 --> 1:12:38.120 about getting past cars is not to say that like 1:12:38.439 --> 1:12:42.440 people will never use vehicles that move again, Like obviously 1:12:42.520 --> 1:12:44.639 we will. They're necessary for something and all. Going back 1:12:44.680 --> 1:12:48.000 to horse drawn buggies. I think one of the last 1:12:48.040 --> 1:12:50.840 things on like solar Punk and kind of tying into 1:12:50.880 --> 1:12:52.639 the whole kind of nature of the shows, I really 1:12:52.680 --> 1:12:55.320 liked enter your point on like how solar punk is 1:12:55.360 --> 1:12:57.840 like an energizing force, and I feel like we have 1:12:58.520 --> 1:13:01.600 very few of those on the left and especially on 1:13:01.600 --> 1:13:04.800 the anarchist left. Um, like i've i've, i've, i've I've 1:13:04.800 --> 1:13:09.280 had my decent stint of like anarcho nihilism. And the problem, 1:13:10.960 --> 1:13:14.200 like the problem with that is like it's very easy, 1:13:14.280 --> 1:13:17.680 Like anarch nihilism is one of the easiest ideologies to 1:13:18.040 --> 1:13:23.320 grasp onto because it vlidifies all of your bad feelings. Um. 1:13:23.360 --> 1:13:25.960 But it also it's most of the people who I 1:13:26.000 --> 1:13:28.559 know who are like real into anarchro nihilism, they're generally 1:13:28.600 --> 1:13:31.479 not very happy people because it's kind of it's kind 1:13:31.479 --> 1:13:35.240 of miserable all the time. Um, and sure they'll like 1:13:35.360 --> 1:13:39.240 scoff at like solar punk is like some like greenwashed 1:13:39.680 --> 1:13:44.559 yogurt commercial, like you know, like utopian thing, but also 1:13:44.680 --> 1:13:47.880 like it's actually lots of solar punk that we've talked about. 1:13:47.880 --> 1:13:50.880 It's like actually about doing specific things, Like it's actually 1:13:50.920 --> 1:13:53.479 like actually going to do something rather than just being 1:13:53.520 --> 1:13:56.960 an insurrecto kid um or just just you know, talking 1:13:57.000 --> 1:14:00.639 about nihilist znes and books on Twitter for all day. 1:14:00.800 --> 1:14:02.439 And I think one of one of your one of 1:14:02.479 --> 1:14:04.880 my favorite videos of yours is your video on the 1:14:04.920 --> 1:14:08.840 psychology of collapse UM, because I think that's one of 1:14:08.840 --> 1:14:12.200 my favorites as well. It's it's, it's, it's, it's it's 1:14:12.200 --> 1:14:14.960 really just like a masterpiece and how deep you get 1:14:15.000 --> 1:14:19.000 into every different type of collapse thinking, because it's not 1:14:19.080 --> 1:14:21.200 just on the rights, not not not not to the left. 1:14:21.240 --> 1:14:24.360 It's not just whether you're you know more you know, anarchist, 1:14:24.439 --> 1:14:27.280 more authoritarian. It's like you get into every specific type 1:14:27.280 --> 1:14:30.120 of thinking that plays into this idea around collapse. And 1:14:30.160 --> 1:14:33.559 I think if I recommend everyone check out your channel 1:14:33.680 --> 1:14:36.920 especially watching your Solar Point videos, but specifically on the 1:14:36.960 --> 1:14:38.840 topic of collapse. You know, part of our show we 1:14:38.840 --> 1:14:40.240 were trying to kind of be a little bit like 1:14:40.280 --> 1:14:43.320 anti collapse UM. And I think your your video really 1:14:43.320 --> 1:14:46.840 shows the depth of that topic UM and how to 1:14:46.920 --> 1:14:49.680 approach this, because collapse is a feeling, like it's a 1:14:49.720 --> 1:14:52.440 feeling we all have, and it needs to be interrogated. 1:14:52.479 --> 1:14:54.519 And I think your video is just a magnificent job 1:14:54.560 --> 1:14:59.479 interrogating that feeling, right, thank you. I can't overemphasize how 1:14:59.520 --> 1:15:03.800 important that is, because I I one of the major failings. 1:15:03.960 --> 1:15:06.920 There were a number of victories for kind of anarchist thought, 1:15:07.040 --> 1:15:10.800 particularly within the United States during the the insurrection last year, 1:15:11.520 --> 1:15:15.879 one of its tremendous defeats is that it has become 1:15:16.600 --> 1:15:20.360 characterized in a huge number of people's eyes as breaking 1:15:20.360 --> 1:15:25.360 windows and and starting fires um. And yeah, that's a 1:15:25.400 --> 1:15:28.320 lot of that is because the media is trash, um, 1:15:28.360 --> 1:15:31.200 and it's trash it reporting on on all of this stuff. 1:15:31.880 --> 1:15:33.679 But some of it is because a lot of people 1:15:33.720 --> 1:15:40.120 have let that be their primary praxis UM. And that again, 1:15:40.160 --> 1:15:42.880 I don't care about people breaking windows, I don't care 1:15:42.880 --> 1:15:46.559 about people lighting dumpster fires, but if that's what you're 1:15:46.600 --> 1:15:52.320 presenting to the world as your practice, that doesn't appeal 1:15:52.400 --> 1:15:57.280 to people. And you have to um, because yeah, anarchism 1:15:57.400 --> 1:16:01.040 is not just destructive, it is also constructive. The constructive 1:16:01.040 --> 1:16:03.639 part we need to be boosting more than And there 1:16:03.680 --> 1:16:05.960 were some, you know, from the context of Portland's some 1:16:06.040 --> 1:16:08.880 really strong examples of that last year. The incredible amount 1:16:08.880 --> 1:16:12.479 of mutual aid that was was put together aid of time. Yeah, 1:16:12.560 --> 1:16:15.479 during the fire relief was was incredible. UM. And the 1:16:15.560 --> 1:16:19.160 Red House, the the eviction defense occupation was a really 1:16:19.360 --> 1:16:22.920 good repost to you know, the disaster that was the 1:16:23.000 --> 1:16:26.439 Chaz in Seattle, that this was like, this was an 1:16:26.479 --> 1:16:29.479 area that was temporarily autonomous from the police, that did 1:16:29.479 --> 1:16:32.200 not collapse into violence, that succeeded in its goal, and 1:16:32.200 --> 1:16:35.160 that cleaned up after itself and presented an option for 1:16:35.160 --> 1:16:37.120 people like this is how it can look when we 1:16:37.200 --> 1:16:41.040 try to evict people. You know, this is what can happen. UM. 1:16:41.200 --> 1:16:43.360 So I think there I don't want to like be 1:16:43.560 --> 1:16:45.799 too negative, but I think that a lot of folks 1:16:46.560 --> 1:16:49.479 because of for a variety of reasons, you know, the 1:16:49.720 --> 1:16:52.880 there's been so much focus on kind of the insurrection, 1:16:53.840 --> 1:16:58.400 not even that because I think that building can be insurrectionist. 1:16:58.520 --> 1:17:02.520 I think that se guerilla gardening can be profoundly insurrectionists. 1:17:02.560 --> 1:17:06.080 It's like, destruction has an immediate result of making you 1:17:06.120 --> 1:17:10.360 feel better, right, it has an immediate of endorphins and hormones. 1:17:10.400 --> 1:17:12.240 It makes you happy when you do it. It's it, 1:17:12.439 --> 1:17:14.320 it is it is an exhilarating act, and you feel 1:17:14.320 --> 1:17:18.920 like you're accomplishing something. What's harder is to like have 1:17:18.960 --> 1:17:21.200 that same feeling by doing seed bobbing right by by 1:17:21.240 --> 1:17:24.240 actually like improving your community slowly through these types of 1:17:24.280 --> 1:17:27.040 like so the park ideas, they don't have the same 1:17:27.080 --> 1:17:29.720 immediate emotional reactions. So a lot of people like when 1:17:29.720 --> 1:17:32.080 they you know, think about what insurrection is, they can 1:17:32.120 --> 1:17:34.960 a default to this destructive pendency which destruction has its 1:17:35.000 --> 1:17:39.320 time and place. Um, But if that's your only practice, 1:17:40.040 --> 1:17:42.640 we're not gonna improve the world at all, Like, right, 1:17:42.680 --> 1:17:46.160 that's that's not gonna do anything. Helping through you know, 1:17:46.240 --> 1:17:49.439 giving out food, helping through giving out socks and clothes, 1:17:49.800 --> 1:17:52.639 helping through all of these solar punk ways. These are 1:17:52.680 --> 1:17:55.439 things that actually like are going to improve things on 1:17:55.520 --> 1:17:58.280 a tangible level. They and they're gonna make more people 1:17:58.320 --> 1:18:00.880 be like, oh, hey, what are the anarchists doing. That's 1:18:00.880 --> 1:18:03.679 actually interesting versus oh, what are these anarchists are doing? 1:18:03.800 --> 1:18:06.920 This is stupid? Ignore everything they say. Yeah, people have 1:18:06.960 --> 1:18:09.559 to remember as well that, um, you know, there's seeds 1:18:09.640 --> 1:18:12.240 I sort of funk in Kirp Potkins writ things, you know, 1:18:12.479 --> 1:18:16.240 from the Conquest of bread to mutual aid, and those 1:18:16.240 --> 1:18:19.400 are sort of things that should be just as emphasized 1:18:19.479 --> 1:18:25.720 as the destructive, exhigerating aspects of anis. Yeah, there's a 1:18:25.760 --> 1:18:28.000 line in a Frank Turner song, a couple of lines 1:18:28.040 --> 1:18:30.040 actually in a song called nineteen thirty three that I 1:18:30.040 --> 1:18:31.360 go back to a lot, but one of them is 1:18:31.479 --> 1:18:33.519 you can't fix the world of all you have is 1:18:33.560 --> 1:18:36.360 a hammer. And that's I guess what I see is 1:18:36.400 --> 1:18:42.479 like the primary practical benefit of solar punk, just as 1:18:42.479 --> 1:18:46.040 an aesthetic as a piece of fiction, is getting people 1:18:46.120 --> 1:18:51.960 to expand their toolbox. Yeah, get yourself a trowel, you know, 1:18:52.360 --> 1:18:56.360 some some screwdrivas, you know. Yeah, keep the hammer, you 1:18:56.360 --> 1:19:00.840 need that sometimes too, but let's grab some other tools. 1:19:00.439 --> 1:19:04.320 Expand the toolbox. Thing isn't really great metaphor this type 1:19:04.320 --> 1:19:07.960 of thing. Yeah, Yeah, Um, I think that's most of 1:19:07.960 --> 1:19:10.360 what we're going to get into today. Um, there's a 1:19:10.400 --> 1:19:12.559 couple of pieces of things I would want to read. 1:19:12.600 --> 1:19:15.040 One of them Isn't. This Isn't directly I think it 1:19:15.080 --> 1:19:19.439 predates the solar punk but it it I think feeds 1:19:19.439 --> 1:19:22.639 into some of what I think. It emotionally feeds into 1:19:22.680 --> 1:19:24.240 a lot of what we're talking about here. It's an 1:19:24.320 --> 1:19:27.920 essay from David Graber called The Shock of Victory UM, 1:19:27.960 --> 1:19:32.920 which I think is really useful to me. Yeah. Um, 1:19:33.000 --> 1:19:36.920 And I would also recommend um Corey doctor O's new 1:19:37.000 --> 1:19:40.479 fiction novel walk Away UM, which I think is a 1:19:40.600 --> 1:19:44.599 really wonderful piece. Was a wonderful, wonderful book. I should 1:19:44.600 --> 1:19:48.360 have included my recommendations. It was really great. Yeah. I 1:19:48.680 --> 1:19:52.040 read it recently and it made me, Um. It made 1:19:52.040 --> 1:19:54.040 me feel the way like as a fiction writer that 1:19:54.120 --> 1:19:56.479 a good piece of fiction should, which is like I 1:19:57.040 --> 1:20:00.559 felt bad. Uh. I felt bad about out some of 1:20:00.600 --> 1:20:03.320 the things that I had written, because there's there's there's 1:20:03.400 --> 1:20:06.600 such there's so much more courage because I wrote a 1:20:06.600 --> 1:20:08.840 piece of fiction that has some solar punk elements, has 1:20:08.880 --> 1:20:12.439 some quasi utopian elements in the dystopia, but I didn't 1:20:12.439 --> 1:20:15.080 have the courage to kind of go as far as 1:20:15.280 --> 1:20:20.000 as Corey did, and to imagine a kind of passivism 1:20:20.160 --> 1:20:22.400 that he he has the courage to kind of put 1:20:22.479 --> 1:20:25.360 into the into the hands of his his protagonists. Like I, 1:20:25.360 --> 1:20:28.720 I really respect that about the book. I mean, the 1:20:28.760 --> 1:20:32.760 book goes in some very interesting eye directions as well, 1:20:33.080 --> 1:20:37.080 but it's it's got some great ship um, and I 1:20:37.120 --> 1:20:41.120 always enjoy Corey's Corey's lef of burning man. Um of 1:20:41.200 --> 1:20:43.920 what it could be is kind of what the what 1:20:43.920 --> 1:20:47.040 what some of it's turned into? But yeah, um, Andrew, 1:20:47.080 --> 1:20:48.800 is there anything else you wanted to get into before 1:20:48.840 --> 1:20:51.719 we we close this out? I just want to remind 1:20:51.760 --> 1:20:57.400 people to check on your friends. M you know, Um, 1:20:57.520 --> 1:21:04.160 we're all going through various stages of collaps as I 1:21:04.240 --> 1:21:07.040 outlined in my video, and you know we shift between 1:21:07.080 --> 1:21:11.200 them from time to time, so try not to go 1:21:11.320 --> 1:21:15.920 through it alone. You know, there's no there's no eye 1:21:15.920 --> 1:21:22.400 in Sula Punk. Yeah yeah, um check out st Andrew 1:21:22.400 --> 1:21:25.120 on YouTube at st andrews Um. Um, Andrew, is there 1:21:25.120 --> 1:21:27.599 any anything else you wanted to kind of plug from 1:21:27.600 --> 1:21:32.559 your own your own personal work. Yeah? So, um, other 1:21:32.640 --> 1:21:36.479 than the you know, the Sula Punk videos and the 1:21:36.600 --> 1:21:40.200 collapse videos, I want to remind sorry, I rather I 1:21:40.200 --> 1:21:44.600 want to shout out my video on black anarchism. I 1:21:44.640 --> 1:21:50.160 think that is a pretty essential look into, uh the 1:21:50.280 --> 1:21:54.479 history of black anarchism in the United States and in 1:21:54.520 --> 1:21:58.559 the world. I also want to recommend um my video 1:21:58.560 --> 1:22:01.360 on the psychology of authoritarian his own. I know a 1:22:01.360 --> 1:22:04.680 lot of people have family members who are conservative or 1:22:04.720 --> 1:22:07.640 on the right to will maybe leading fascist, and I 1:22:07.680 --> 1:22:11.559 think I can to be helpful for you know, helping 1:22:11.600 --> 1:22:15.720 them to or rather helping you to understand the way 1:22:15.760 --> 1:22:19.400 they mindset side mm hm. And also, you know, check 1:22:19.439 --> 1:22:23.680 out my video on puma Let's Sing. I think that 1:22:23.840 --> 1:22:26.200 was a pretty fun one as well. It breaks down 1:22:26.200 --> 1:22:29.040 a lot of it break breaks down how you can 1:22:29.560 --> 1:22:34.439 go about implementing food forests or puma culture gardens wherever 1:22:34.439 --> 1:22:39.000 you find yourself. Awesome, Um, thank you very much for 1:22:39.040 --> 1:22:41.759 being on the show, Andrew, thank you all for listening. 1:22:41.840 --> 1:22:44.439 We'll be back tomorrow, or if this comes out Friday, 1:22:44.479 --> 1:22:46.400 we'll be back, you know, another day. We'll be back 1:22:46.439 --> 1:22:48.280 at some point. You know, you know how this works. 1:22:48.320 --> 1:23:00.519 You understand podcasts the art world, it is essentially a 1:23:00.840 --> 1:23:04.360 money laundering business. The best fakes are still hanging off 1:23:04.360 --> 1:23:07.799 people's walls. You know they don't even know or suspect 1:23:07.840 --> 1:23:11.280 that they're fakes. I'm like Baldwin and this is a 1:23:11.320 --> 1:23:15.679 podcast about deception, greed, and forgery in the art world. 1:23:16.120 --> 1:23:21.559 You knew that the painting was fake. Um. Listen to 1:23:21.800 --> 1:23:25.960 Art Fraud starting February one on the I Heart Radio app, 1:23:26.000 --> 1:23:39.360 Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Evrodsky, 1:23:39.439 --> 1:23:41.880 author of the New York Times bestseller fair Play and 1:23:41.920 --> 1:23:45.439 Find your Unicorn Space, activists on the gender division of labor, 1:23:45.600 --> 1:23:49.200 attorney and family mediator. And I'm doctor as eating A Rucar, 1:23:49.479 --> 1:23:52.560 a Harvard physician and medical correspondent with an expertise and 1:23:52.600 --> 1:23:56.360 the science of stress, resilience, mental health, and burnout. We're 1:23:56.400 --> 1:23:59.639 so excited to share our podcast, Time Out, a production 1:23:59.680 --> 1:24:04.280 of Heart Podcasts and Hello Sunshine. We're uncovering why society 1:24:04.360 --> 1:24:06.599 makes it so hard for women to treat their time 1:24:06.600 --> 1:24:09.439 with the value it deserves. So take this time out 1:24:09.520 --> 1:24:13.080 with us. Listen to Time Out, a fair Play podcast 1:24:13.280 --> 1:24:16.599 on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever 1:24:16.760 --> 1:24:20.920 you get your podcasts. I'm Tanya Sam, host of the 1:24:20.960 --> 1:24:24.479 Money Moves podcast powered by Greenwood. This daily podcast will 1:24:24.520 --> 1:24:27.360 help give you the keys to the Kingdom of financial stability, 1:24:27.520 --> 1:24:31.479 wealth and abundance with celebrity guests like Rick Ross, Amanda Sells, 1:24:31.479 --> 1:24:35.040 Angela Ye, Roland Martin, JB. Smooth, and Terrell Owens. Tune 1:24:35.040 --> 1:24:37.519 in to learn how to turn liabilities into assets and 1:24:37.560 --> 1:24:42.760 make your money Moves up by subscribe to the Money 1:24:42.760 --> 1:24:45.000 Moves podcast powered by green One on the I Heart 1:24:45.040 --> 1:24:48.000 Radio app or wherever you get your podcasts, and make 1:24:48.040 --> 1:24:59.559 sure you leave a review a podcast. All right, Chris, 1:25:00.080 --> 1:25:04.960 you go, so welcome, Welcome to it could happen here 1:25:05.080 --> 1:25:07.360 a podcast that I think, for the first time is 1:25:07.439 --> 1:25:10.200 just me and Robert h. This is this is the 1:25:10.320 --> 1:25:12.880 very first time that this is happening. You're You're all 1:25:12.920 --> 1:25:16.360 here at a moment of legendary significance and historic importance. 1:25:16.520 --> 1:25:20.360 So try to try to face it with the requisite 1:25:20.360 --> 1:25:24.840 all that's all I ask, yes. And another thing that, man, 1:25:24.840 --> 1:25:27.439 this is a terrible transition. Something else we're facing with 1:25:27.520 --> 1:25:33.480 requisite awe is weird shortages of goods and price increases. 1:25:34.000 --> 1:25:37.200 M So it's fucking rad. I was just at the 1:25:37.880 --> 1:25:42.200 Asian market today, um, and they did not have the 1:25:42.240 --> 1:25:47.440 snack chips that I most prefer now officially a calamity. Um, 1:25:47.439 --> 1:25:51.160 we've entered crisis of historic proportion. Yeah, I think I 1:25:51.160 --> 1:25:53.360 don't think we're going to live through this one. Nope, 1:25:53.400 --> 1:25:55.479 we're doing We can't look at that without the Asian 1:25:55.520 --> 1:25:59.280 snack chips, Like it's the ones that are like they're 1:25:59.320 --> 1:26:02.200 like pieces of seaweed but that have been fried and 1:26:02.240 --> 1:26:08.479 temper a batter's completely out tragic, absolutely tragifying. I think 1:26:08.520 --> 1:26:10.719 there's a couple of things. I mean, you've got a script, 1:26:10.800 --> 1:26:12.880 so I'll probably just let you do that in the 1:26:12.920 --> 1:26:15.559 not too distant future. But one of the things that's 1:26:15.560 --> 1:26:18.280 frustrating to me, although maybe it shouldn't be because I'm 1:26:18.320 --> 1:26:21.960 probably partly responsible for this, is that this is being um, 1:26:22.040 --> 1:26:24.680 this is often kind of being talked about with by 1:26:24.720 --> 1:26:26.960 people online, is like, oh, it's a sign that like 1:26:27.760 --> 1:26:31.000 society is crumbling. And what they mean by that is 1:26:31.040 --> 1:26:33.200 that like, oh, well, we just don't have stuff, like 1:26:33.200 --> 1:26:35.760 we're we're not able to like keep up with with 1:26:35.880 --> 1:26:38.719 demand and like the ability to produce these things is crumbling. 1:26:39.000 --> 1:26:42.000 And it's actually much more complex than that, and a 1:26:42.040 --> 1:26:45.240 lot less rooted in a lack of specific resources and 1:26:45.320 --> 1:26:48.599 more decisions made under capitalism about how the supply chain 1:26:48.640 --> 1:26:51.000 would work, and it's I don't know. I think it's 1:26:51.040 --> 1:26:52.920 important because it is you can say it still is 1:26:53.000 --> 1:26:56.040 like a situation where this is an example of the 1:26:56.080 --> 1:26:59.559 system falling apart, but it's not falling apart because we 1:26:59.600 --> 1:27:02.400 don't have the paper to make toilet paper with. It's 1:27:02.439 --> 1:27:06.120 falling apart because decisions were made in order to increase 1:27:06.160 --> 1:27:09.040 the stock prices of companies by reducing the amount of 1:27:09.160 --> 1:27:12.640 products that they kept on hand, and that's led to 1:27:12.760 --> 1:27:16.640 an incredibly fragile system that that did nothing well but 1:27:16.760 --> 1:27:20.000 maximize profits. And I think, well, okay, I think there's 1:27:20.000 --> 1:27:21.600 there's there's a couple of things with that that we 1:27:21.640 --> 1:27:24.400 should talk about. Yeah, because there's a lot of different 1:27:24.439 --> 1:27:27.160 explanations they're floating around for why is happening, and I 1:27:27.200 --> 1:27:28.800 think some of them are good, but I think a 1:27:28.840 --> 1:27:31.800 lot of them are missing part of the story. And 1:27:32.040 --> 1:27:35.200 I think it's important because so like, like my grandma 1:27:35.360 --> 1:27:38.920 like called me yesterday, like like called our family to 1:27:39.120 --> 1:27:43.240 like talk about the supply chain problem because someone had 1:27:43.280 --> 1:27:47.160 like she'd been like fed a conspiracy theory that like 1:27:47.200 --> 1:27:49.639 the shortages were because American dock workers like didn't want 1:27:49.640 --> 1:27:53.320 to open containers from China. Yeah, it's like yeah, like 1:27:53.360 --> 1:27:56.240 I mean, this is not that's not right. But it's 1:27:56.240 --> 1:27:59.360 not like if that had happened, it would be like, well, okay, 1:27:59.400 --> 1:28:03.519 that does scan like yeah, and I think yeah, and 1:28:03.560 --> 1:28:05.519 like I think this is this is a moment where yeah, 1:28:05.600 --> 1:28:08.040 you know, okay, think think things are not working how 1:28:08.040 --> 1:28:09.400 they're supposed to. And there's a lot of sort of 1:28:09.439 --> 1:28:12.160 competing stories about it, one which because on which are bad. 1:28:12.160 --> 1:28:16.240 And I think most of the conventional accounts and whereber 1:28:16.280 --> 1:28:18.760 It was talking about this, uh, you know, even the 1:28:18.800 --> 1:28:21.639 really good ones, they start with sort of the eighties 1:28:21.640 --> 1:28:24.120 Wall Street takeover of corporate America and the transformation of 1:28:24.200 --> 1:28:26.840 sort of all corporate management into an attempt to like 1:28:26.920 --> 1:28:29.760 raise short term stock prices. And you know, part of 1:28:29.760 --> 1:28:33.280 this is lead in production and this is true, and 1:28:33.320 --> 1:28:35.800 this is sort of true, but dismisses about half of 1:28:35.840 --> 1:28:38.640 the story. And and the part of the story that 1:28:38.680 --> 1:28:43.240 it misses that's really important, I think is the sort 1:28:43.280 --> 1:28:47.160 of it's it's the broader like frame in which all 1:28:47.160 --> 1:28:51.120 of this is happening in is essentially the story of 1:28:51.120 --> 1:28:54.200 how the working class essentially loses the class war. In 1:28:54.200 --> 1:28:57.599 the six season seventies and weirdly, it's also a story 1:28:57.600 --> 1:29:04.240 about the co's boomerang, which you have. Yeah, yes, long, 1:29:05.040 --> 1:29:08.200 throw in, throw in the music clip that we've all 1:29:08.240 --> 1:29:10.200 decided is going to be the one we put in 1:29:10.240 --> 1:29:13.680 whenever someone talks about foods boomerang, which is probably just 1:29:13.680 --> 1:29:16.240 going to be another time machine noise. So real quick 1:29:18.800 --> 1:29:24.640 Corse credit to Cody. Um, Okay, continue brief refresher on 1:29:24.680 --> 1:29:27.720 what that is. So basically the free cost boomerang is that. Okay, 1:29:27.720 --> 1:29:29.840 if if you if, if if a government does something 1:29:30.600 --> 1:29:34.120 like repressive like technology, repressive technique or passive technology like 1:29:34.360 --> 1:29:36.720 in a colony, like in a war somewhere, eventually it 1:29:36.720 --> 1:29:38.559 will come back and be used against like the citizens 1:29:38.520 --> 1:29:42.640 of that country. And yeah, a great example would be 1:29:42.680 --> 1:29:48.320 fingerprinting was invented for the British, like policing um insurgents 1:29:48.320 --> 1:29:52.240 in Malaysia, and is now has come back to every 1:29:52.280 --> 1:29:54.920 you know, colonizing nation now uses fingerprinting, which is also 1:29:55.000 --> 1:29:57.680 deeply flawed as a technology. But anyway, yeah, yeah, and 1:29:57.720 --> 1:29:59.240 you know, and I think most people tend to think 1:29:59.240 --> 1:30:02.960 about this as a armored personnel carriers. But we will 1:30:03.000 --> 1:30:05.759 eventually get to this. The boomerang technology here is actually 1:30:05.760 --> 1:30:11.000 shipping containers hell yeah, which have done like irreparable damage 1:30:11.200 --> 1:30:15.120 to the mankind. Alright, alright, I'm ready for this. I 1:30:15.120 --> 1:30:17.679 don't know much about this. Hit me, all right, bear 1:30:17.720 --> 1:30:20.080 with you with this, because we're we're we're we're gonna 1:30:20.080 --> 1:30:22.680 talk about two threads. They're going to seem like they 1:30:22.720 --> 1:30:25.040 have nothing to do with supply chains, and then they're 1:30:25.040 --> 1:30:26.880 all going to tie together. It turns out is literally 1:30:26.880 --> 1:30:30.960 all supply chains. So in the citties and seventies, you have, 1:30:32.120 --> 1:30:35.240 you know, in very very broad general strokes, you have 1:30:35.280 --> 1:30:38.120 two kinds of class war. The first kind is what 1:30:38.160 --> 1:30:40.720 I'm sort of very broadly calling the war and the factories. 1:30:41.439 --> 1:30:43.320 And this is this is an enormous series that sort 1:30:43.320 --> 1:30:45.960 of strikes outright uprisings a stretch from sort of Detroit 1:30:46.000 --> 1:30:49.479 to tur into Tokyo. And you know, the most famous 1:30:49.520 --> 1:30:52.479 of these is the student sort of worker uprising in 1:30:52.760 --> 1:30:57.040 May sixty eight in France. And they you know, they're 1:30:57.080 --> 1:30:59.639 they're they're close enough taking the country that like French 1:30:59.720 --> 1:31:02.400 presis at Charles de Gaul, like flees in a helicopter 1:31:02.520 --> 1:31:06.080 to in secret, and like flees to Germany in secret 1:31:07.040 --> 1:31:09.720 and you know and that that that that's like a 1:31:09.720 --> 1:31:11.360 big event, but it's sort of it sort of fades. 1:31:12.760 --> 1:31:16.120 What doesn't fade is May sixty eight in Italy, and 1:31:16.479 --> 1:31:20.160 you know that it doesn't fade there because Italy, Italy 1:31:20.160 --> 1:31:21.880 has been in the middle of a strike wave since 1:31:23.680 --> 1:31:27.200 two sixty four. It's the whole sixties that basically just 1:31:27.360 --> 1:31:31.120 strik waves there and you know, they have their own 1:31:31.640 --> 1:31:35.719 sixty and unlike in France where peters out, in Italy 1:31:35.760 --> 1:31:39.479 you get the just incredibly named hot Hot Autumn of 1:31:39.520 --> 1:31:48.559 sixty nine, which is a hot autumn. Yeah, it's it's great. 1:31:48.600 --> 1:31:51.880 And so basically what happens is you get hundreds of 1:31:51.880 --> 1:31:54.040 thousands of workers go on strike, they start seizing control 1:31:54.080 --> 1:31:56.400 their factories, um and most of most of this is 1:31:56.400 --> 1:32:00.519 playing out in in the Fiat factories. Yeah, it's giant 1:32:00.520 --> 1:32:04.720 car factories in Italy's industrial triangle. And you know, I 1:32:04.720 --> 1:32:06.920 mean they're there for like, they're there for a long time. 1:32:06.960 --> 1:32:11.599 They're into like seventy and eventually they lose. But you know, 1:32:12.600 --> 1:32:15.760 Italy is just sort of rocked by conflict and sort 1:32:15.760 --> 1:32:19.000 of class war stuff, and all of this reculminates in 1:32:19.200 --> 1:32:22.599 yet another enormous uprising in en seventies seven. This one 1:32:22.720 --> 1:32:26.360 driven like in large part by people who we're basically 1:32:26.400 --> 1:32:29.120 just like, funk this, I'm not working in the factory anymore. 1:32:29.160 --> 1:32:31.120 It's awful, which which I think is something that like, 1:32:32.200 --> 1:32:34.600 you know, if you're looking at the modern political landscape, 1:32:35.000 --> 1:32:36.920 you have a bunch of people who are going like, 1:32:37.080 --> 1:32:38.960 funk this, I'm not going to go like die in 1:32:39.000 --> 1:32:44.920 these factories anymore. And those people all have in a 1:32:44.960 --> 1:32:51.519 lot of cases, safer employing situations than many people today. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 1:32:51.520 --> 1:32:53.240 Like it's starting to get worse then, which is why 1:32:53.280 --> 1:32:58.080 people are are frustrated. But like yeah, yeah, you know, 1:32:58.120 --> 1:33:01.240 And and this is sort of interesting because is there 1:33:01.280 --> 1:33:04.040 there's a kind of like Vicky Uster while I've had 1:33:04.040 --> 1:33:05.840 on here, it calls it, it calls it like the 1:33:05.880 --> 1:33:07.920 Monkeys Paul thing where it's like people in the seventies 1:33:07.920 --> 1:33:10.519 and Italy wanted like autonomy and like freedom from work, 1:33:11.160 --> 1:33:13.439 and so what what capitalism gave them was like, oh, 1:33:13.439 --> 1:33:15.879 we'll give you autonomy, We'll just make you all contract workers. 1:33:16.479 --> 1:33:18.040 And now like yeah, you don't you don't have to 1:33:18.040 --> 1:33:19.720 like wake up every morning and like go to a 1:33:19.760 --> 1:33:21.400 job in the factory and leave it five or whatever. 1:33:21.439 --> 1:33:24.080 But now you just you know, you're you're a contract worker, 1:33:24.120 --> 1:33:26.160 so you just have no stability whatsoever, and that that's 1:33:26.160 --> 1:33:31.080 your autonomy. But you know, this, this is this is 1:33:31.160 --> 1:33:34.360 really bad for the Italian ruling class. Like they almost 1:33:34.400 --> 1:33:37.640 lose control of Italy three times in ten years, and 1:33:37.720 --> 1:33:40.639 after a seventy seven they're just like fuck this, and they, 1:33:40.680 --> 1:33:42.479 i mean, they started to start doing mass arrest. They 1:33:42.520 --> 1:33:44.960 imprison like tens of thousands of people, the torture a 1:33:45.000 --> 1:33:49.960 bunch of people, and you know, but it becomes clear 1:33:50.040 --> 1:33:52.960 that like pure political repression is like not going to 1:33:53.000 --> 1:33:55.080 be enough to like just destroy the section of the 1:33:55.080 --> 1:33:59.320 working class movements that you know, God help you thinks 1:33:59.320 --> 1:34:02.719 that you should like run production for themselves. And so 1:34:03.160 --> 1:34:06.840 they start looking elsewhere for answers. And the place they 1:34:06.880 --> 1:34:10.439 find these answers, weirdly enough, is in the second set 1:34:10.439 --> 1:34:13.559 of wars that are going on in this period, which 1:34:13.560 --> 1:34:17.040 are the sort of national liberation wars. And you know, 1:34:17.439 --> 1:34:19.320 these are the national liberation wars. Are these these are 1:34:19.400 --> 1:34:23.120 full scale, like these aren't sort of class warm metaphors. 1:34:23.200 --> 1:34:25.519 These are you know, this is this is giddy be Saw, 1:34:25.680 --> 1:34:29.799 This is Algeria and you know, importantly for for our purposes, 1:34:29.800 --> 1:34:34.120 the US fights two of them, which is Korean Vietnam. 1:34:34.160 --> 1:34:39.040 Now Korean Vietnam are strategically really bad places for the 1:34:39.120 --> 1:34:43.479 US to fight wars, like they're on the other side 1:34:43.479 --> 1:34:47.760 of the world, which you know, it makes it more 1:34:47.760 --> 1:34:49.680 difficult to do war crimes because you know, if you're 1:34:49.720 --> 1:34:52.160 fire bombing of village, right, you have to be able 1:34:52.200 --> 1:34:54.960 to move fire bombs, jet fighters and like oil and 1:34:55.040 --> 1:34:57.800 rations to the other side of the world. And this 1:34:57.920 --> 1:35:00.720 is hard, as it carried about. It easier when they 1:35:00.760 --> 1:35:04.840 can commit war crimes. And like I don't know, duloof, Yeah, yeah, well, 1:35:04.840 --> 1:35:07.439 like even even like you know, you you got to 1:35:07.439 --> 1:35:09.080 commit a war crime in Mexico, it's like, okay, you 1:35:09.439 --> 1:35:10.760 just sign a bunch of people over the border. It 1:35:10.800 --> 1:35:13.360 would be so easy to commit war crimes in Mexico. Yeah, 1:35:13.439 --> 1:35:16.760 and and really really up our war crime quoti. Well, 1:35:16.760 --> 1:35:19.000 I would say, we do do a lot of war 1:35:19.080 --> 1:35:23.040 crimes in Mexico. It's just that like they're done based 1:35:23.080 --> 1:35:25.800 on by proxies. That's true. But I mean we've filled 1:35:25.840 --> 1:35:27.880 like we've killed like a million people there in the 1:35:27.920 --> 1:35:31.760 last like twenty years, and the War on drugs. But yeah, 1:35:31.760 --> 1:35:34.639 you knows, so the US, you know, the U s okay, 1:35:34.640 --> 1:35:36.800 So it has this logistics problem. In logistics problem is 1:35:36.800 --> 1:35:39.400 that it can't do war crimes enough, and so it 1:35:39.400 --> 1:35:41.519 comes up with a couple of solutions to them. One 1:35:41.560 --> 1:35:45.479 of them is essentially they rebuild the whole Japanese economy 1:35:45.520 --> 1:35:47.880 in order to just use Japan's industrial base to fight 1:35:47.880 --> 1:35:50.040 the war in Korea, and then after the war in 1:35:50.120 --> 1:35:53.160 Korea ends, they rebuild the South Korean economy in order 1:35:53.160 --> 1:35:56.759 to you know, fight the war in Vietnam. And this works, 1:35:57.280 --> 1:36:00.519 but it doesn't solve the problem that you know, okay, 1:36:00.520 --> 1:36:02.760 even even even if you're you know, you're you have 1:36:02.800 --> 1:36:05.559 an industrial base in Japan, right, you still need to 1:36:05.560 --> 1:36:10.920 be able to efficiently move things by sea to Korea, 1:36:11.360 --> 1:36:13.000 and you know, you still need to still supplies you 1:36:13.000 --> 1:36:15.879 need to move from the US. And so the solution 1:36:15.960 --> 1:36:21.920 for this is containery shipping. And containery shipping. This is 1:36:21.960 --> 1:36:26.680 the pivot point upon which the entire history of the 1:36:26.720 --> 1:36:30.400 twentieth century and everything that's happening in the twenty one 1:36:30.479 --> 1:36:33.720 century hinges on like this, this is the pivot and 1:36:34.160 --> 1:36:35.800 you know, like I'm not even this isn't even really 1:36:35.800 --> 1:36:39.559 an exaggeration, because it turns out that like the ability 1:36:39.600 --> 1:36:42.120 to have uniform boxes that you can stack on top 1:36:42.160 --> 1:36:44.120 of each other like legos and put on a ship 1:36:44.720 --> 1:36:50.000 is like like it's like comparable to the nuclear bomb 1:36:50.680 --> 1:36:54.120 in terms of how important it is, which is really 1:36:54.160 --> 1:36:55.920 really used to the only way to get things from 1:36:55.920 --> 1:36:58.840 A to B was a big wooden ship filled with 1:36:59.320 --> 1:37:02.760 the bloons like pilet bags and stuff. Yeah. Yeah, I 1:37:02.760 --> 1:37:05.400 don't know, how did we like global commerce work before 1:37:05.439 --> 1:37:08.639 shipping containers? What did we what did we literally like 1:37:08.920 --> 1:37:11.599 you just like sometimes sometimes you would just like physically 1:37:11.680 --> 1:37:14.080 people would just pick up the items and put them 1:37:14.080 --> 1:37:17.080 on the ship, or they would like sometimes they put 1:37:17.080 --> 1:37:19.839 them in boxes or like you would like strap them 1:37:19.880 --> 1:37:23.040 to like the top of the ship. And so with 1:37:22.680 --> 1:37:26.160 the UH trains a lot, they would just like strap 1:37:26.479 --> 1:37:31.320 like machinery like onto a train car. And this was 1:37:31.360 --> 1:37:35.559 like not this is like really inefficient, it's really so yeah, 1:37:35.600 --> 1:37:37.800 and so the US in order to like do war 1:37:37.840 --> 1:37:40.840 crimes in Korea, and then you know it's just like, oh, hey, 1:37:40.880 --> 1:37:44.680 what if we just make metal boxes and then they 1:37:44.720 --> 1:37:46.840 get they progressively get better and better at it, because 1:37:46.840 --> 1:37:48.439 you know, they have to go do more war crimes 1:37:48.479 --> 1:37:51.840 in in Vietnam. And but by the time you're getting 1:37:51.840 --> 1:37:54.240 to the end, yeah, yeah, you know, look lots of 1:37:54.240 --> 1:37:56.160 war crimes that do you need? You need good logistics 1:37:56.200 --> 1:37:59.120 networks to do all of these war crimes. I mean, 1:37:59.160 --> 1:38:01.360 it makes sense that that's where we got shipping containers. 1:38:01.360 --> 1:38:03.599 But I didn't realize. I had just assumed it would 1:38:03.600 --> 1:38:06.439 have come out of the shipping industry as opposed to 1:38:06.479 --> 1:38:10.320 like we had to get more missiles over to these places. Yeah, 1:38:10.360 --> 1:38:12.760 well this is the interesting thing. We'll get to this 1:38:12.800 --> 1:38:16.720 in a bit. But basically, like a lot of the 1:38:16.760 --> 1:38:20.479 logistics revolution stuff either comes out of the military or 1:38:20.560 --> 1:38:24.320 is developed by X fascists and and and a lot 1:38:24.360 --> 1:38:25.800 of the reason for this is Okay, I mean this 1:38:25.840 --> 1:38:28.000 is you know, this is the seventies. They're still are 1:38:28.040 --> 1:38:31.160 indeed happening like this still actual research and developments. But 1:38:31.880 --> 1:38:35.160 the military is doing just an enormous amount of the 1:38:35.200 --> 1:38:40.880 research development for all of global capitalism. And you know, 1:38:41.080 --> 1:38:44.880 and and and the other thing, Yes, what's happening here? 1:38:44.920 --> 1:38:47.200 And you know this this is the sort of boomerang 1:38:47.280 --> 1:38:50.200 thing is that you know, so the container is shipping 1:38:50.200 --> 1:38:52.840 logistics stuff that had been used to just like obliterate 1:38:52.880 --> 1:38:56.559 the global South suddenly starts spreading into capital, like you know, 1:38:56.600 --> 1:38:59.000 just into like broader shipping because people look at this 1:38:59.000 --> 1:39:00.519 and they're like, oh, this is a fish. And then 1:39:00.560 --> 1:39:03.760 the contracting companies the US is using. This turns into 1:39:03.800 --> 1:39:05.880 the solution to both sort of the war and the 1:39:05.880 --> 1:39:08.280 factories are talking about in in in Europe and the 1:39:08.360 --> 1:39:11.680 US and in Japan itself, and then also to the 1:39:11.720 --> 1:39:14.760 solution of the national liberation movements and sort of like 1:39:14.800 --> 1:39:18.200 communism in East Asia because you know, Okay, so you 1:39:18.280 --> 1:39:21.599 have this question, right the US, like we kind of 1:39:21.640 --> 1:39:24.040 fight to a draw in Korea, like we kill a 1:39:24.120 --> 1:39:28.960 norm's number of people, but the North Korea, yeah, and 1:39:29.000 --> 1:39:32.679 like yeah, but we don't really win, right, like we 1:39:32.680 --> 1:39:36.760 we we can't actually defeat the Chinese army or yeah, 1:39:36.800 --> 1:39:39.200 and and you know, and we lose Vietnam. And so 1:39:39.240 --> 1:39:40.840 the question is, okay, so like how how are we 1:39:40.840 --> 1:39:43.559 going to stop communism? And the answer, it turns out, 1:39:43.680 --> 1:39:45.960 is to just integrate integrate the communist countries into the 1:39:45.960 --> 1:39:48.600 capitalist supply chain. And I mean there's a lot of 1:39:48.600 --> 1:39:51.120 examples of this, like market Thatcher, for example, is like 1:39:51.439 --> 1:39:56.439 very good buddies with Nikolai chessqu Ah. That's nice. They 1:39:56.439 --> 1:40:00.840 could be friends despite their the fact that they yeah, 1:40:00.880 --> 1:40:03.200 well I guess they weren't really that different as people, No, 1:40:03.320 --> 1:40:07.000 not really like ba. Basically the difference is that Ky 1:40:07.160 --> 1:40:11.160 lost and thus got like murdered on state television on 1:40:12.320 --> 1:40:19.360 a state funeral treatment. That's the official stance they should 1:40:20.360 --> 1:40:23.360 for stuff we will talk about in a bit. But yes, 1:40:23.479 --> 1:40:26.280 but you know, the archetypal example of this is actually China. 1:40:27.000 --> 1:40:29.000 And you know there's a lot of various sort of 1:40:29.040 --> 1:40:33.479 skilled diplomatic work by Kissinger and also the US like 1:40:33.560 --> 1:40:37.479 throughout the seventies just like they're just like sending entire 1:40:37.600 --> 1:40:40.760 factories to China, like like the like they'll they'll they'll 1:40:40.800 --> 1:40:43.400 take an entire factory, break it down, put it in 1:40:43.479 --> 1:40:46.120 boxes and then just like ship at the China great 1:40:46.720 --> 1:40:49.920 at the time. And yes, so yeah, they're they're they're 1:40:49.920 --> 1:40:52.880 just like sending technology of China. And the end result 1:40:52.960 --> 1:40:57.080 of this is that you know, China goes from like 1:40:57.640 --> 1:41:01.200 fighting American troops with like like do banit charges like 1:41:01.280 --> 1:41:06.800 three yeah yeah against the Yeah. I was just like 1:41:07.360 --> 1:41:10.600 yeah to to you know, being an American ally in 1:41:10.680 --> 1:41:13.920 like invading Vietnam as a way to like stick it 1:41:13.960 --> 1:41:17.240 to the Soviets basically, and so, you know, so the 1:41:17.320 --> 1:41:19.880 uses sensely just integrates China to the global supply chain, 1:41:19.960 --> 1:41:22.160 and they eventually do the same thing to Vietnam, which 1:41:22.439 --> 1:41:24.920 again is another country that they couldn't defeat militarily. But 1:41:24.920 --> 1:41:26.479 what they you know what they actually beat them with. 1:41:26.520 --> 1:41:29.400 It's a shipping container. And before the shipping container, this 1:41:29.400 --> 1:41:31.599 would have been impossible, right, like basically it was too 1:41:31.600 --> 1:41:34.120 inefficient and too expensive, like the cost of shipping was 1:41:34.160 --> 1:41:38.400 too high to have all of this production, you know, 1:41:39.000 --> 1:41:41.120 like some half your parts made in China, some of 1:41:41.160 --> 1:41:43.479 them made India's on them made in like Japan's one 1:41:43.479 --> 1:41:45.080 of the maiden Korean and then shipped them all around 1:41:45.080 --> 1:41:47.400 the world, which is how the modern system works. But 1:41:47.479 --> 1:41:50.639 with with container I shipping, suddenly shipping is really cheap 1:41:51.840 --> 1:41:53.960 and it becomes much cheaper to pay shipping costs it 1:41:54.000 --> 1:41:57.320 is to pay labor costs. And this is the solution 1:41:57.400 --> 1:42:00.160 to to the sort of war in the factories. Know, 1:42:00.200 --> 1:42:02.400 if if workers start making too much noise about pay 1:42:02.479 --> 1:42:04.920 or like again a god forbids start talking about like 1:42:04.960 --> 1:42:07.400 taking control of factories and running the democratically like some 1:42:07.479 --> 1:42:10.919 kind of anarchist monsters. Corporation can just move the factories overseas, 1:42:12.320 --> 1:42:14.799 and this becomes an incredibly effective way to just destroy 1:42:14.800 --> 1:42:17.400 the labor movement because anytime, you know, organized labor starts 1:42:17.400 --> 1:42:19.760 making demands, you can be like, well, okay, sorry, we're 1:42:19.760 --> 1:42:21.599 just gonna pack up and we're gonna you know, we're 1:42:21.640 --> 1:42:23.360 gonna go to China, We're gonna go to somewhere else. 1:42:24.280 --> 1:42:27.599 And this coincides with, you know, the thing, the thing 1:42:27.600 --> 1:42:30.919 that gets talked about a lot in the conventional accounts, 1:42:30.920 --> 1:42:34.360 which is the Wall Street sort of corporate takeover, well, 1:42:34.439 --> 1:42:36.920 the Wall Street takeover of corporate America, which is something 1:42:36.960 --> 1:42:40.360 I think that sounds really weird to us now, but 1:42:41.520 --> 1:42:44.519 you know, the whole the whole story here is really 1:42:44.520 --> 1:42:47.240 interesting and extremely long and if if you want to 1:42:47.960 --> 1:42:51.559 like have a very detailed account of how this all 1:42:51.600 --> 1:42:56.440 played out, The book Liquidated by Karen Hoe is just incredible, 1:42:58.640 --> 1:43:01.479 like ethnography and his stree of Wall Street. She like 1:43:01.760 --> 1:43:04.320 she's a karent hous'n athropologist, and she like went and 1:43:04.320 --> 1:43:06.439 worked on Wall Street and like did ethnography there for 1:43:06.479 --> 1:43:10.360 a bit and it's very interesting stuff. But it's kind 1:43:10.400 --> 1:43:14.200 of outside of our scope. So the very very very 1:43:14.200 --> 1:43:17.719 short version is that the Wall Street bankers basically figure 1:43:17.720 --> 1:43:21.880 out a way to just like buy out corporations to 1:43:22.640 --> 1:43:25.000 raise a bunch of money and just entirely buy out corporations. 1:43:25.000 --> 1:43:28.240 And then once they have the corporation, right, what what 1:43:28.240 --> 1:43:30.360 what what the you know? This is corporate rating. So 1:43:30.400 --> 1:43:32.599 they're they're they're they loot all the assets, they sell 1:43:32.640 --> 1:43:34.000 it off, and they try to sell off their stock 1:43:34.000 --> 1:43:36.360 at a higher price. The parcels of this is sort 1:43:36.360 --> 1:43:38.640 of complicated, but the net result of this is that 1:43:38.640 --> 1:43:41.439 Wall Street completely takes over the corporate world in the 1:43:41.479 --> 1:43:43.679 way they hadn't before. Like the Wall Streets, the Wall 1:43:43.680 --> 1:43:46.240 Street like finance people are now you know, they're there 1:43:46.240 --> 1:43:51.000 are people making off the decisions, and you know, and 1:43:51.000 --> 1:43:53.800 and they're they're only goal is to raise the stock price, 1:43:53.960 --> 1:43:55.400 like that's that's the only thing they care about. That 1:43:55.479 --> 1:43:57.360 they don't they don't even care about making money. Right 1:43:57.400 --> 1:43:59.719 if if you lose money and your stock price still rises, 1:43:59.760 --> 1:44:04.040 like you don't care. And those guys start looking at 1:44:04.040 --> 1:44:06.000 a lot of the things that had existed in corporations 1:44:06.000 --> 1:44:09.800 before that, things like pensions, uh particularly things like research 1:44:09.840 --> 1:44:12.200 and development. They look at it and go, Okay, why 1:44:12.200 --> 1:44:14.000 are we spending money on R and D? Like this, 1:44:14.000 --> 1:44:15.960 This doesn't this doesn't raise our stock price, This doesn't 1:44:15.960 --> 1:44:18.559 have any immediate shorter and value. So they cut it right, 1:44:18.560 --> 1:44:21.759 They start cutting pensions. They starts just destroying the unions. 1:44:22.720 --> 1:44:26.400 And you know, and and because because this is happening 1:44:26.400 --> 1:44:31.080 at the same time as corporations really like get the 1:44:31.120 --> 1:44:34.360 ability to outsource for the first time, you know, they 1:44:34.479 --> 1:44:37.760 lean into it and they start essentially we're just just 1:44:37.800 --> 1:44:39.920 slashing the aount of people who work for the company, 1:44:40.120 --> 1:44:42.240 right and so you know, and so and instead of 1:44:42.280 --> 1:44:44.760 having direct employees, they start working with contractors, and they 1:44:44.760 --> 1:44:48.679 start moving to the contractors overseas, and you know, and 1:44:48.600 --> 1:44:50.000 and this is this is where we get to sort 1:44:50.040 --> 1:44:56.760 of this whole outsourcing wave because you know, something I 1:44:56.800 --> 1:45:02.160 don't think I talked about enough withoutsourcing is why actually 1:45:02.200 --> 1:45:05.320 are the labor costs lower in the countries that these 1:45:05.320 --> 1:45:09.800 people are are moving their factories to. H And part 1:45:09.800 --> 1:45:11.960 of it is, you know, people talk about development like 1:45:12.000 --> 1:45:15.600 they're moving to undeveloped countries, and you know, part of 1:45:15.640 --> 1:45:17.920 part of part of development is just you know, how 1:45:17.960 --> 1:45:21.360 much technological capacity their manufacturing system has, right, and that 1:45:21.600 --> 1:45:23.920 you know. But but the other part of it is 1:45:23.960 --> 1:45:27.840 that if you move your production to say Columbia, right 1:45:27.960 --> 1:45:29.640 or like you know, you're investing in sort of like 1:45:29.760 --> 1:45:32.400 cocoa bean farming in Columbia and people try to do 1:45:32.439 --> 1:45:36.160 you need organizing, you can hire des squads to murder them. Yeah, 1:45:36.200 --> 1:45:38.360 and yeah, yeah, it's like you can basically just sort 1:45:38.360 --> 1:45:40.320 of like you can you can outsource the violence, and 1:45:40.320 --> 1:45:43.040 you can you can you know, the corporate term for 1:45:43.080 --> 1:45:45.040 it is reducing labor costs, but really what you're doing 1:45:45.120 --> 1:45:48.440 is just like murdering people with death squads and terrorizing them, 1:45:48.479 --> 1:45:51.720 and you know that that does lower labor costs, right, 1:45:52.280 --> 1:45:54.840 But you know, and I think there's there's another example 1:45:54.840 --> 1:45:58.439 of this, Like this is a lot of what like 1:45:58.520 --> 1:46:01.360 the killing at Tienamen was really ab out it was 1:46:01.439 --> 1:46:03.600 you know, not so much in Tianna Square itself. I 1:46:03.680 --> 1:46:06.120 talked about the elseware, but like the workers that they 1:46:06.240 --> 1:46:10.400 kill outside of the square, like a lot of the 1:46:10.439 --> 1:46:13.479 reason they're doing very little about Tinament Square other than 1:46:13.520 --> 1:46:18.439 like protesters China government bad. The guy stands up the 1:46:18.479 --> 1:46:23.439 tank and then yeah, yeah, yeah, I've talked about this elsewhere. 1:46:23.439 --> 1:46:25.519 More like the very short version is, so there's a 1:46:25.520 --> 1:46:28.160 bunch of students in the square, right, and the students 1:46:28.200 --> 1:46:32.080 in the square itself like basically they kind of went 1:46:32.120 --> 1:46:35.040 democracy and mostly they want like market reforms to go faster. 1:46:36.760 --> 1:46:40.280 But then outside of the square, you know, fijings like 1:46:40.280 --> 1:46:44.000 whole working class shows up and there's these enormous demonstrations. 1:46:44.040 --> 1:46:47.559 They basically start like like barricading, like blocks and blocks 1:46:47.560 --> 1:46:49.280 and blocks and like this radius outside of the street. 1:46:49.320 --> 1:46:51.880 You get this sort of like mini commune thing. And 1:46:52.160 --> 1:46:55.080 those guys are like, you know, like they're they're they're 1:46:55.080 --> 1:46:58.760 advocating for democracy and the factory like they're you know, 1:46:58.800 --> 1:47:05.559 they're they're talking about things like like they're they're like that, 1:47:05.640 --> 1:47:07.680 you know, they they they they they have their like 1:47:07.840 --> 1:47:10.439 marks out and they're talking about how like they're they're 1:47:10.479 --> 1:47:13.160 they're calculating their rate of surplus value that's being extracted 1:47:13.160 --> 1:47:16.280 from them by the capitalists. And those are the people, 1:47:16.360 --> 1:47:18.439 like almost everyone who dies at Chanta man Is is 1:47:18.479 --> 1:47:20.080 from those guys, Like those are the people that they 1:47:20.120 --> 1:47:24.040 just get massacred. And you know, and and the reason 1:47:24.120 --> 1:47:26.760 that happens is that the CCP is looking at this 1:47:26.800 --> 1:47:29.800 and it's like, okay, this, this is this is like this, 1:47:29.800 --> 1:47:31.559 this is sort of this is the return of organized labor, 1:47:31.600 --> 1:47:33.799 and we need to destroy it before it like gets anywhere. 1:47:34.240 --> 1:47:40.639 And so they do, and organized labor and China just implode. 1:47:40.640 --> 1:47:42.800 I mean it was already pretty weak because you have 1:47:42.800 --> 1:47:44.519 a lot of state controlled unions, but I mean now 1:47:44.560 --> 1:47:47.479 it's just nothing. And you know, and and and there, 1:47:47.479 --> 1:47:49.240 I mean there have been attempts to labor organizing and 1:47:49.320 --> 1:47:50.960 China sort of recently, and like yeah, this needs to 1:47:51.000 --> 1:47:53.479 be just rest everyone, right, and so you know this, 1:47:53.479 --> 1:47:54.920 this this is how this is. This is the price 1:47:54.920 --> 1:47:59.760 of cheap labor, right, it's just incredible state repression. But 1:48:00.120 --> 1:48:01.800 this is also you know, and this is this is 1:48:01.800 --> 1:48:04.200 a sort of like macro scale thing of why the 1:48:04.200 --> 1:48:07.639 supply chains suck because everyone talks about like the efficiency 1:48:07.680 --> 1:48:10.479 of the supply change, but the supply chains aren't efficient. 1:48:10.560 --> 1:48:12.680 They make no sense, right if if if what you're 1:48:12.680 --> 1:48:16.200 trying to do is move something quickly from points A 1:48:16.360 --> 1:48:20.320 to point B, they make no sense because you know, 1:48:20.400 --> 1:48:22.200 the supply chaine are spread all over the world, like 1:48:22.400 --> 1:48:25.519 in individual parts are being made in six countries, right, 1:48:25.600 --> 1:48:29.960 you have like people will like for tax dodge purposes, 1:48:30.000 --> 1:48:32.760 Like they'll have one part of a component's built in 1:48:32.840 --> 1:48:34.519 one country, and then they'll move it from another country 1:48:34.520 --> 1:48:35.880 to have another part of it, and then they'll ship 1:48:35.920 --> 1:48:37.679 all of it to Mexico and they'll ship it across 1:48:37.720 --> 1:48:39.799 the border and they'll have the whole thing be assembled 1:48:39.800 --> 1:48:41.320 in the USC they can say it was made in 1:48:41.360 --> 1:48:43.200 the US. Like, there's all of these things that are 1:48:43.880 --> 1:48:46.040 just just nonsense right there. They're not they're not efficient 1:48:46.080 --> 1:48:48.920 at all. It's it's completely ridiculous. It's it's this just 1:48:49.040 --> 1:48:51.680 you know, it's just completely absurd web. And and the 1:48:52.280 --> 1:48:55.880 reason why it is designed like this is as as 1:48:55.960 --> 1:48:57.640 a giant sort of kind of unsurgency thing. Like the 1:48:58.320 --> 1:49:01.080 reason the reason the supply chains are are just bad 1:49:02.080 --> 1:49:06.840 is because there, you know, they they they're not designed 1:49:06.840 --> 1:49:09.120 to move things that they're designed as an instrument to 1:49:09.200 --> 1:49:12.360 just like solve the problem of of of of class 1:49:12.400 --> 1:49:16.280 power right there there there, they're designed destroy unions. Are 1:49:16.320 --> 1:49:18.960 designed to make sure that nobody ever sort of like 1:49:19.240 --> 1:49:21.680 gets any ideas about whidges, to make sure nobody gets 1:49:21.680 --> 1:49:26.680 any ideas about like taking anything. And so you know, 1:49:26.720 --> 1:49:29.920 but in this this this can work for a while. 1:49:29.960 --> 1:49:33.920 The problem is again, like they're not efficient. It's it's 1:49:33.920 --> 1:49:37.160 just it just it is not efficient to like move 1:49:38.120 --> 1:49:40.880 have everything made in like six countries and then you 1:49:40.880 --> 1:49:43.200 have to send them somewhere else. Yeah, and so you know, 1:49:43.520 --> 1:49:47.280 it's efficient in the sense that it efficiently maximizes the 1:49:47.360 --> 1:49:50.599 value of stock prices for like stock by backs and stuff. 1:49:50.600 --> 1:49:53.640 And that's generally what is meant by like efficiency in 1:49:53.640 --> 1:49:56.760 that sense is like what makes the seventy people who 1:49:56.800 --> 1:49:59.960 actually own this company the most money. That's the efficient thing. 1:50:00.120 --> 1:50:03.080 But it's it's horribly inefficient in every practical sense of 1:50:03.120 --> 1:50:04.800 the word. And and and that this is kind of 1:50:04.840 --> 1:50:07.120 an interesting change because I mean, you know this this 1:50:07.160 --> 1:50:09.439 isn't to say that like the supply chains that worked 1:50:09.479 --> 1:50:11.960 before this were like better, because they also sucked in 1:50:12.120 --> 1:50:14.760 a lot of their own ways. But all of the 1:50:14.880 --> 1:50:17.519 like efficiency stuff that we're about to talk about with 1:50:17.680 --> 1:50:20.800 just just in time production, etcetera, etcetera, Like you know 1:50:20.840 --> 1:50:26.160 what isn't produced just in time? Sorry, it isn't add 1:50:26.240 --> 1:50:29.400 right time. Yeah, they're they're they're they're not produced just 1:50:29.479 --> 1:50:31.599 in time anymore because the supply chains falling apart. It's 1:50:32.800 --> 1:50:37.160 that's what that is our promise about our sponsors is that, uh, 1:50:37.200 --> 1:50:39.320 they're they're not at all in time. Who knows when 1:50:39.320 --> 1:50:41.719 they'll get your products to you. There's no way to tell. 1:50:42.040 --> 1:50:46.000 It's impossible to know. We're back, Yeah, we're back to 1:50:46.000 --> 1:50:50.080 talk about how, you know, having having developed an entire 1:50:50.160 --> 1:50:53.760 network of extremely inefficient supply chains that just absolutely suck 1:50:53.840 --> 1:50:56.519 and don't make any sense. Uh, people tried to make 1:50:56.560 --> 1:50:59.840 them efficient. And this this is where we go back 1:50:59.840 --> 1:51:06.360 to Japan, because Japan, you know, I guess this is 1:51:06.400 --> 1:51:08.960 this is this is the other Forks boomerang, which is 1:51:09.000 --> 1:51:11.639 that you know, okay, so we we we industrialized Japan 1:51:12.120 --> 1:51:15.240 in order to like fighter colonial wars, right, but then 1:51:15.520 --> 1:51:18.360 you know, this turns into this huge like Pikachu face 1:51:18.439 --> 1:51:22.280 moment when Japan suddenly starts like industrializing more efficiently than 1:51:22.280 --> 1:51:26.040 the US does. It's very funny. And then and writes 1:51:26.080 --> 1:51:28.599 a bunch of books that are the premise of all 1:51:28.640 --> 1:51:33.000 of them. Is Japan scary? Yeah, it's very funny. Yeah, 1:51:33.200 --> 1:51:35.360 you know, like this is interesting. Is this is an 1:51:35.360 --> 1:51:37.280 interesting thing here, which is that like all of the 1:51:37.320 --> 1:51:42.280 panic around China, there was exactly the same panic like 1:51:42.479 --> 1:51:45.439 around Japan in the like the seventies, and it's exactly same, 1:51:45.479 --> 1:51:48.920 like right down to like a bunch of socialists going like, hey, 1:51:49.000 --> 1:51:51.519 look this this is a model for anti capitalism. Like 1:51:51.640 --> 1:51:53.920 people people said that about the Japanese model, and it's 1:51:53.960 --> 1:51:55.920 like it's it's all, it's all the same thing. It's 1:51:55.920 --> 1:51:58.840 just it's just happening again. But you know what, what 1:51:58.840 --> 1:52:02.040 what what What Japan did, and specifically, what Toyota does 1:52:02.120 --> 1:52:05.240 is create this thing called the Toyota production system, which 1:52:05.320 --> 1:52:07.960 eventually becomes known as just in time production. And this 1:52:08.160 --> 1:52:12.200 if you've read anything about sort of the modern supply 1:52:12.280 --> 1:52:15.400 chain problems, you've almost certainly heard of just in time 1:52:15.400 --> 1:52:18.560 production or or leading production, and just in time and 1:52:18.640 --> 1:52:22.400 lean production are technically difference, but the differences don't matter 1:52:22.439 --> 1:52:26.840 for us. So yeah, and and this this stuff is 1:52:26.880 --> 1:52:30.000 derived from what Toyota was sort of doing in the 1:52:30.040 --> 1:52:35.479 post war era. And basically the goal of it is 1:52:36.920 --> 1:52:40.000 you're you're never supposed to have any inventory that's just 1:52:40.040 --> 1:52:43.040 sitting there, so that the whole distant supposed to be 1:52:43.080 --> 1:52:45.759 constantly the whole system is supposed to be constantly in motion. 1:52:45.840 --> 1:52:47.679 So you have parts come in, they get put into 1:52:47.680 --> 1:52:49.800 their immediately get put into the production line and the 1:52:49.800 --> 1:52:53.320 finished products immediately shipped out to the stores. And you know, 1:52:53.400 --> 1:52:55.280 the theory is that the stores are only going to 1:52:55.320 --> 1:52:58.280 carry exactly enough product to meet demands. And it's supposed 1:52:58.320 --> 1:53:01.040 to be quote unquote flexible, which means that it can 1:53:01.320 --> 1:53:03.960 react to shifts in consumer taste and demand by like 1:53:04.040 --> 1:53:07.400 increasing or decreasing production, and it can't do this. This 1:53:07.479 --> 1:53:09.400 is what we've been seeing for the entirety of COVID, 1:53:09.439 --> 1:53:11.600 which is that you know that this is this is 1:53:11.600 --> 1:53:14.160 why every time there's a run of toilet paper, everyone 1:53:14.240 --> 1:53:16.240 runs out of toilet paper, because it turns out that 1:53:16.240 --> 1:53:20.040 these systems can't even a ten percent increase just completely 1:53:20.080 --> 1:53:22.479 obliterates this entire system and it just collapses and can't 1:53:22.479 --> 1:53:25.639 produce enough toilet paper. Yeah, and again just because it's 1:53:25.640 --> 1:53:28.360 expensive to store things. It's pricy. This is a big 1:53:28.400 --> 1:53:31.080 part of like why actually, the John Deer strike, which 1:53:31.280 --> 1:53:34.519 has the potential to disrupt the status quote movement more 1:53:34.520 --> 1:53:39.360 than any strike in recent history, um is so potent 1:53:39.479 --> 1:53:43.519 because John Deere tractors are kind of a necessary part 1:53:43.600 --> 1:53:45.960 of the agriculture industry, not just their ability to sell 1:53:46.040 --> 1:53:49.120 new tractors, but their ability to repair the extant tractors. 1:53:49.479 --> 1:53:52.280 Like if harvest season comes around and there's not spare 1:53:52.320 --> 1:53:55.240 parts to repair tractors that break, like food doesn't get harvested, 1:53:55.280 --> 1:53:58.920 it's a significant issue. John Deer. We'll talk more about 1:53:58.920 --> 1:54:01.720 this in another day. But like, not only did the 1:54:01.760 --> 1:54:04.280 most that they could do to squeeze their employees to 1:54:04.360 --> 1:54:07.879 suck out pensions, to cut you know, expenditures on wages, 1:54:08.400 --> 1:54:11.880 but they they set up their factories in such a 1:54:11.880 --> 1:54:14.080 way that there was no extra space, so they could 1:54:14.080 --> 1:54:16.759 not scale up any of these factories to increase demand 1:54:16.760 --> 1:54:19.559 when they needed to. So that now that John Deere's 1:54:19.600 --> 1:54:22.400 going on strike, if they lose a month of productivity, 1:54:22.439 --> 1:54:25.120 they can't ever catch up. It's impossible because they can't 1:54:25.160 --> 1:54:29.559 actually expand the productive capacity of their factories. And because 1:54:29.600 --> 1:54:31.840 the strike is hitting, they didn't have any extra spare 1:54:31.880 --> 1:54:35.080 parts lying around, So if ship gets broken, they can't 1:54:35.080 --> 1:54:39.000 manufacture the parts necessary to keep tractors functioning in a 1:54:39.000 --> 1:54:41.600 lot of American farms because they didn't store anything, because 1:54:41.640 --> 1:54:44.000 that was not the most efficient thing for the economic 1:54:44.040 --> 1:54:45.880 bottom line of the CEO who gets a hundred and 1:54:45.920 --> 1:54:48.840 sixty million dollars a year. And anyway, this is this 1:54:48.880 --> 1:54:50.520 is the funny part about this whole thing, which is 1:54:50.560 --> 1:54:52.480 that you know, okay, so this whole supply chain system 1:54:53.200 --> 1:54:57.640 was based around just like destroying destroying the organized working class, right, 1:54:58.560 --> 1:55:01.800 But it's like they were so successful at it that 1:55:01.840 --> 1:55:05.360 they've like turned around and fucked themselves with it because 1:55:05.360 --> 1:55:06.880 like you know, this this is this is the thing 1:55:07.040 --> 1:55:09.280 about about the John Deer strike. Right. It used to 1:55:09.320 --> 1:55:11.960 be you know, back back back if you look at 1:55:12.000 --> 1:55:16.040 like like how how the unions were broken in the eighties, 1:55:16.120 --> 1:55:17.720 or like if you look at like the giant like 1:55:17.800 --> 1:55:21.600 auto strikes you'd have in the seventies, right, and companies 1:55:21.640 --> 1:55:24.040 still do this to this day, but like there worst 1:55:24.040 --> 1:55:26.480 at it. The thing they would do is so okay, 1:55:26.480 --> 1:55:28.680 So you you you know, if you're a company, you 1:55:28.760 --> 1:55:30.840 know roughly when a strike is gonna happen, right. And 1:55:30.840 --> 1:55:32.800 the reason you know when a strike is gonna happen 1:55:32.880 --> 1:55:36.440 is because in the US, like the way labor law 1:55:36.480 --> 1:55:39.000 works is that like you can you can basically only 1:55:39.080 --> 1:55:41.720 strike like when a contract is up. I mean you 1:55:41.720 --> 1:55:45.280 can do wildcats, but it's illegal. But you know, okay, 1:55:45.280 --> 1:55:48.080 so they knew that the audio unions, for example, we're 1:55:48.080 --> 1:55:49.720 about to go we're going to go on strike. When 1:55:49.920 --> 1:55:53.120 when the contracts like was was coming up, and you know, 1:55:53.200 --> 1:55:55.000 they'd have spies, and you can get a sense of like, 1:55:55.800 --> 1:55:58.000 you know, okay, so are are how likely are they 1:55:58.080 --> 1:56:02.760 to do this strike? And you know so so that 1:56:02.760 --> 1:56:05.200 that that lets you do things like build up an 1:56:05.280 --> 1:56:08.120 enormous sort of inventorio spare parts. It lets you build 1:56:08.200 --> 1:56:10.120 up an inventory of supplies, and it lets you build 1:56:10.160 --> 1:56:12.760 up you know it basically, it lets you build up 1:56:12.760 --> 1:56:15.920 the capacity you need to outlast a strike. But the 1:56:15.920 --> 1:56:18.240 problem with just in times, they can't do that anymore 1:56:18.600 --> 1:56:21.360 because yeah, they they've they've you know, they've they've completely 1:56:21.400 --> 1:56:25.400 fucked themselves by by then the John Deer situation because 1:56:25.440 --> 1:56:27.800 they hadn't strike, the workers hadn't had gone on strikes 1:56:27.800 --> 1:56:30.800 since eighties six. They've been putting funds into their strike 1:56:31.360 --> 1:56:34.240 survival fund for years, but the company had nothing like 1:56:34.360 --> 1:56:37.720 has Um. It's rather and this is you know this, 1:56:37.720 --> 1:56:42.360 this is the other part of of of why everything 1:56:42.440 --> 1:56:44.960 like good that's happening right now is happening is that 1:56:46.360 --> 1:56:51.000 they they they you know, they everything has circled back 1:56:51.000 --> 1:56:54.080 around and suddenly all of these companies are you know, 1:56:54.160 --> 1:56:56.560 we are incredibly vulnerable to strikes again, because yeah, as 1:56:56.560 --> 1:56:59.720 you're talking about the just in time production thing, it 1:56:59.840 --> 1:57:04.680 all only works if if everything actually comes in on time, right, 1:57:04.800 --> 1:57:07.400 Like if if if any if any individual part is late, 1:57:07.440 --> 1:57:09.200 the whole system starts to fall apart. And then and 1:57:09.200 --> 1:57:12.200 then you can't repair it. And you know, and there's 1:57:12.240 --> 1:57:14.360 there's a lot of ways that that this this this 1:57:14.400 --> 1:57:18.120 can be very bad. Um. You know, we've talked about 1:57:18.160 --> 1:57:21.520 the John we talked about the labor stuff. The other 1:57:21.560 --> 1:57:24.880 big thing that's happening is COVID, which has happened and 1:57:24.920 --> 1:57:27.800 continues to happen and has killed off just enormous parts 1:57:27.840 --> 1:57:31.280 of the working class. I mean it's like four million 1:57:31.320 --> 1:57:34.320 dead worldwide or something. And again that that's also probably 1:57:34.360 --> 1:57:37.160 an undercount because that's just direct. Guess that's not like, yeah, 1:57:37.200 --> 1:57:39.320 it's probably like twice that it's i mean, we're looking 1:57:39.320 --> 1:57:42.600 at a minimum of seven in the US, and again 1:57:42.640 --> 1:57:46.600 that's probably a million undercounted at least. Yeah, it's it's 1:57:46.600 --> 1:57:49.200 a horror show, right, And and the people they killed 1:57:49.240 --> 1:57:53.000 with that, you know, like especially in the initial phases, 1:57:53.320 --> 1:57:55.080 like it was just it was just that they took 1:57:55.080 --> 1:57:58.640 a chained chainsaw to the working class. And those are 1:57:58.640 --> 1:58:01.680 a bunch of people who know that they're they're not replaceable. 1:58:01.680 --> 1:58:03.480 They're they're very highly skilled and they do a bunch 1:58:03.480 --> 1:58:09.640 of jobs that absolutely suck. And now you know, and 1:58:09.680 --> 1:58:11.720 one of one of the places that this this has 1:58:11.760 --> 1:58:14.200 caused a bunch of problems is in the ports because 1:58:15.200 --> 1:58:17.240 the other thing that this entire supply gamber relies on 1:58:17.320 --> 1:58:20.400 is being able to very quickly and cheaply moved parts 1:58:20.760 --> 1:58:23.920 from you know, China to the US, from China to Mexico, 1:58:23.960 --> 1:58:27.920 from like Bangladesh too. Like symbolia, you have, you have, 1:58:27.960 --> 1:58:29.560 you have, you have to be able to continuously like 1:58:29.880 --> 1:58:34.760 keep moving stuff around in in Yeah, you have to 1:58:34.840 --> 1:58:38.040 continuously keep moving ships around. And you also have to 1:58:38.040 --> 1:58:39.560 be able to load noneload them. And we you know, 1:58:39.600 --> 1:58:43.040 we we we saw like there there was the that 1:58:43.160 --> 1:58:45.960 when that ship got stuck in the Suez. There is 1:58:46.000 --> 1:58:48.560 that whole yeah that you know that that that was 1:58:48.880 --> 1:58:52.320 sex asses where where when people couldn't get sex asses 1:58:52.360 --> 1:58:55.480 because the world's supply of sex asses for months was 1:58:55.520 --> 1:58:58.800 on that one ship. Um, it was a real crisis 1:58:58.840 --> 1:59:01.960 for the sex ass community. Those are plastic ascis that 1:59:02.000 --> 1:59:05.880 you have sex with if you're curious. Yeah, it is. 1:59:08.960 --> 1:59:12.280 The world appears as an immense collection of commodities, some 1:59:12.440 --> 1:59:15.840 of which are sex asses. Yeah, most of which, in 1:59:15.960 --> 1:59:19.920 terms of the ones that matter, sex asses. Yes, sex 1:59:20.000 --> 1:59:23.360 ass industrial complex is really the lynchpin of global capital. 1:59:23.400 --> 1:59:25.880 But please continue. Yeah, well, you know, but the sex 1:59:25.920 --> 1:59:28.640 assi indictual complex falls apart. And you know, and it's 1:59:28.680 --> 1:59:30.840 not just the ship being stuck in the sis like 1:59:30.840 --> 1:59:34.920 made everything way worse, right, But it was very funny, Yeah, 1:59:34.960 --> 1:59:37.240 it was. It was extremely funny, but it's extremely funny. 1:59:37.600 --> 1:59:39.000 The part of the thing that is like not very 1:59:39.080 --> 1:59:42.440 funny is that, like, okay, so in order to getting 1:59:42.520 --> 1:59:44.160 this to work right, you have to have a bunch 1:59:44.160 --> 1:59:47.839 of longshoremen. You have to unload all of the ship mhm. 1:59:48.440 --> 1:59:50.880 And you know, one of one of the problems that 1:59:51.080 --> 1:59:52.880 is that is happening in the sort of global supply 1:59:52.960 --> 1:59:55.320 chain right now is that the ships can't be unloaded 1:59:55.320 --> 1:59:58.040 fast enough. And part of this is like this job sucks, 1:59:58.160 --> 1:59:59.720 and people just a lot of people don't want to 1:59:59.720 --> 2:00:02.320 do it, and a lot of people died and in 2:00:02.360 --> 2:00:06.960 the and it's causing this huge problem and and there's 2:00:06.960 --> 2:00:09.800 and then there's there's another you know, if you want 2:00:09.840 --> 2:00:12.880 to take like the macrospective about this, it's that this 2:00:12.920 --> 2:00:15.080 whole system is relying on logistics workers and so it 2:00:15.160 --> 2:00:18.440 also needs you know, you need truck drivers. And we're 2:00:18.440 --> 2:00:20.360 coming back and you know in the US, is that 2:00:20.440 --> 2:00:22.280 there's yeah, you know, there's there's a sort of a 2:00:22.280 --> 2:00:24.840 truck drivers now because again their job sucks and they've 2:00:24.880 --> 2:00:28.879 been like just absolutely screwing these people over for decades 2:00:28.880 --> 2:00:31.240 and decades and decades now and turn into the subcontractors 2:00:31.360 --> 2:00:34.760 just not paying them, and you know, and and this 2:00:34.920 --> 2:00:37.960 and when you know, when the when the ports shut down, 2:00:38.200 --> 2:00:39.720 like not even shut down, like when when the ports 2:00:39.720 --> 2:00:44.200 are behind unloading stuff and when the trucks like that 2:00:44.200 --> 2:00:45.960 are supposed to be moving this stuff, they aren't off 2:00:45.960 --> 2:00:48.760 of them, and like the cost of that increases, it 2:00:48.800 --> 2:00:52.560 throws off the whole system. And that's that's another big 2:00:52.600 --> 2:00:57.000 part of like why this whole thing is is sort 2:00:57.000 --> 2:01:01.080 of imploding. And and it's interesting because I remember this. 2:01:01.160 --> 2:01:05.040 There was like a decade where like every other article 2:01:05.080 --> 2:01:07.280 we'll be talking about how they were going to like 2:01:07.320 --> 2:01:11.040 automate like truck driving. It was like the truck drivers 2:01:11.040 --> 2:01:12.240 are all going to go out of business because they're 2:01:12.240 --> 2:01:14.360 going to automated. It just never happened at all. And 2:01:14.400 --> 2:01:16.560 say the same thing with with there. You know, there's 2:01:17.040 --> 2:01:19.560 I mean, there's been some port automization, but like not 2:01:19.600 --> 2:01:23.160 on the scale that you know, actually does anything. And 2:01:23.200 --> 2:01:24.760 part of the reason for that is, you know, I 2:01:24.800 --> 2:01:28.360 was talking about people not investing in research developments. Yeah, 2:01:28.400 --> 2:01:30.320 so the biggest people who aren't doing that are the 2:01:30.320 --> 2:01:33.720 shipping companies. And that's a good time because the shipping 2:01:33.720 --> 2:01:37.560 cup basically like container shipping, has been taken over by 2:01:37.800 --> 2:01:41.160 was essentially just like a monopoly of two companies. And 2:01:41.280 --> 2:01:44.360 those two companies make just an indescribable amount of money. 2:01:44.440 --> 2:01:47.480 They have like a thousand percent profits and they just 2:01:47.520 --> 2:01:50.200 pay it all out as dividends. And so they're not 2:01:50.600 --> 2:01:53.360 you know, they're not investing in any port infrastructure, they're 2:01:53.360 --> 2:01:55.960 not investing automation. They're just pocketing the money. And that 2:01:56.000 --> 2:01:57.480 means that you know, we have all that and they're 2:01:57.720 --> 2:02:00.000 they're spending in in the case of John Deere, which 2:02:00.120 --> 2:02:01.920 keep going back to a bunch of money lobbying to 2:02:01.920 --> 2:02:06.080 make it illegal for farmers to repair uh their tractors. Yeah, yeah, 2:02:06.120 --> 2:02:08.520 they're there. You know, they they figured they figured out 2:02:08.560 --> 2:02:11.200 that like the the easiest way to make money is 2:02:11.320 --> 2:02:13.160 just get the state to shake people down for you. 2:02:14.120 --> 2:02:17.480 It's like, fuck like investing in in making anything that 2:02:17.520 --> 2:02:21.000 we have better. Let's just you know, like let's just 2:02:21.000 --> 2:02:25.080 turn the state into a deck collector. And and it's 2:02:25.120 --> 2:02:27.640 interesting because so this, this is the part of of 2:02:27.680 --> 2:02:30.160 the supply chain crisis that like Biden has been focusing on. 2:02:30.520 --> 2:02:34.160 But Biden's plan, Biden's plans great. Biden's plan is literally 2:02:34.240 --> 2:02:39.840 make the longshoremen work harder. So his plan is here, 2:02:39.880 --> 2:02:43.760 we go, there, we go, there, we building back better. Baby. Yeah, 2:02:43.920 --> 2:02:46.240 we're gonna we're gonna make We're gonna keep the ports 2:02:46.280 --> 2:02:48.760 open twenty four hours a day, seven days a week, 2:02:50.240 --> 2:02:52.360 and like make people work weekends now. And then he 2:02:52.440 --> 2:02:56.760 also got FedEx, Walmart and Ups to do twenty four 2:02:56.760 --> 2:02:59.680 hour or seven day a week shipping. So yeah, the 2:02:59.720 --> 2:03:03.120 sally is literally just like feed more workers into a 2:03:03.200 --> 2:03:07.160 grinder and make them work longer, which is which is 2:03:07.200 --> 2:03:11.080 great and and you know will not in any way backfire. No, 2:03:11.200 --> 2:03:13.200 it's fine. I don't even think we should be talking 2:03:13.240 --> 2:03:16.600 about it. No, it's great, it's gonna, it's it's yeah, 2:03:16.600 --> 2:03:18.760 it's you know but I get like this is the thing, 2:03:18.840 --> 2:03:21.360 Like this won't work and it can't and the reason 2:03:21.400 --> 2:03:22.880 it won't work is that, like part of the reason 2:03:22.880 --> 2:03:26.720 there's a shortage is that you know, it's it's not 2:03:26.800 --> 2:03:28.560 it's not just about the like the fact that people 2:03:28.560 --> 2:03:32.360 aren't paying enough. It's about the fact that these jobs 2:03:33.040 --> 2:03:37.840 are just awful. Like you have people, you have people 2:03:37.920 --> 2:03:40.480 working like twelve hours shifts that start at like six 2:03:40.520 --> 2:03:42.720 am and then they have to wake another twelve hour 2:03:42.760 --> 2:03:44.120 shift in hours later, and that these people have them 2:03:44.120 --> 2:03:45.640 can do this over and over and over again and 2:03:45.640 --> 2:03:47.760 it's well, and they don't like the way that these 2:03:47.760 --> 2:03:49.680 shifts are usually put on them is that, like you'll 2:03:49.680 --> 2:03:52.360 find out when you come in that instead of working 2:03:52.720 --> 2:03:56.480 six am to four pm or whatever, they're actually gonna 2:03:56.480 --> 2:03:58.240 need you to stay until eight and then they're gonna 2:03:58.240 --> 2:03:59.840 need you to come in. By the way, you're gonna 2:03:59.840 --> 2:04:01.600 need to come in like two hours early tomorrow. So 2:04:01.640 --> 2:04:04.320 you're realized that like in between your two shifts, you 2:04:04.320 --> 2:04:06.640 have a total of eight hours to get home and sleep. 2:04:07.280 --> 2:04:11.960 And if you say no, uh uh, well, the idea 2:04:12.000 --> 2:04:13.400 is that if you say no, like you won't have 2:04:13.440 --> 2:04:16.040 the job. It's required now, the reality is that most 2:04:16.040 --> 2:04:18.600 of these companies are also pretty desperate to have these workers, 2:04:18.600 --> 2:04:21.520 and a lot of these manufacturing and packing firms, it 2:04:21.560 --> 2:04:23.600 takes time to train people up and then they quit 2:04:23.640 --> 2:04:26.360 a couple of weeks in because the work is miserable 2:04:26.440 --> 2:04:30.480 and the schedule is fucking miserable. Um, and it's yeah, 2:04:30.520 --> 2:04:35.040 it's all, it's it's it's it's simultaneously like deeply inhuman, 2:04:35.080 --> 2:04:37.320 but also is leading to a situation. There's a reason 2:04:37.360 --> 2:04:39.480 why there's so many strikes on right now is that 2:04:39.520 --> 2:04:43.240 there is opportunity because in sort of the chasing of 2:04:43.240 --> 2:04:47.320 short term profits, a lot of these fucking oligarchs have 2:04:47.840 --> 2:04:51.960 exposed themselves in a in a pretty vulnerable position. Yeah, 2:04:52.080 --> 2:04:55.320 and I think you know this, this is coming back 2:04:55.360 --> 2:05:00.760 to a sort of the other way that when when 2:05:00.760 --> 2:05:03.520 there was a crisis in in the seventies, the other 2:05:03.560 --> 2:05:06.000 way they saw this was just authoritarianism, right, it was 2:05:06.200 --> 2:05:08.560 you know, is this is the pinos a solution, right, like, oh, 2:05:08.640 --> 2:05:12.440 like workers are using control compromids, Okay, we'll just shoot them, 2:05:12.520 --> 2:05:16.000 right and yeah, and yeah, and this is you know, 2:05:16.040 --> 2:05:19.560 they're they're they're finally running into a point where you know, 2:05:19.880 --> 2:05:21.520 this is this is the solution they've been trying to 2:05:21.560 --> 2:05:24.440 do now with with with this crisis is you know, 2:05:24.800 --> 2:05:27.720 the the they're relying on the fact that just the 2:05:27.800 --> 2:05:31.200 workplace is just indescribably authoritarian. I mean, it's it's like 2:05:31.240 --> 2:05:34.800 it's it's it's a dictatorship on a scale that is 2:05:34.880 --> 2:05:39.839 like like even to like the most despotic absolute monarch 2:05:40.000 --> 2:05:44.440 is just like unimaginable, Like your boss gets to control 2:05:44.960 --> 2:05:48.040 like when you ship, like they get a control, when 2:05:48.080 --> 2:05:50.520 you eat, they get a control exactly what you're doing, 2:05:51.160 --> 2:05:53.320 like at all times, they get control when you do it, 2:05:53.400 --> 2:05:56.400 they get a control like when the next time you're 2:05:56.400 --> 2:05:58.280 going to do it is. They don't even have to 2:05:58.280 --> 2:06:00.360 tell you when it's going to be and tell like 2:06:00.440 --> 2:06:04.360 you show up and you know, for the this is 2:06:04.400 --> 2:06:08.080 this is this has been the gamble for for you know, capitalism, 2:06:08.160 --> 2:06:10.200 the tire existence, which is that like you just have 2:06:10.240 --> 2:06:12.200 to take this and eat ship or they get to 2:06:12.240 --> 2:06:14.200 take away your ability to eat, get medical care and 2:06:14.240 --> 2:06:18.120 have a place to leave to live. But that's not 2:06:18.160 --> 2:06:21.720 true anymore. Like you can just say no, you can 2:06:21.760 --> 2:06:24.360 tell them to funk off. You can you know you can, 2:06:24.400 --> 2:06:27.120 you can you can organize a union. You can just 2:06:27.440 --> 2:06:31.720 fucking just leave your job, like, just leave it, fucking 2:06:32.000 --> 2:06:33.880 walk out. And this is why we focus. I mean, 2:06:33.920 --> 2:06:36.120 this is number one why within the context of unions, 2:06:36.160 --> 2:06:38.400 strike funds are so important, but also why mutual aid 2:06:38.440 --> 2:06:41.200 is so important. Is it it potentially when organized well enough, 2:06:41.240 --> 2:06:43.960 provides people with the option to like, well, how are 2:06:44.000 --> 2:06:46.360 you going to feed yourself? Well, there's people in my 2:06:46.400 --> 2:06:48.440 community who want to make sure that I'm fed because 2:06:48.480 --> 2:06:51.600 they believe in what I'm striking for. Um, that's the 2:06:51.640 --> 2:06:54.120 promise of all of that. That's the practical behind the 2:06:54.200 --> 2:07:00.280 kind of high minded you know anarchists, uh, just you 2:07:00.320 --> 2:07:03.560 know whatever. Theorizing is the ability that like, well this 2:07:03.640 --> 2:07:08.400 actually is a weapon too. Yeah, and I think you 2:07:08.400 --> 2:07:12.720 know what else is a weapon? Chris are product. I 2:07:12.760 --> 2:07:17.080 hope we're not being sponsored some I hope we are. Chris. Look, 2:07:17.120 --> 2:07:19.840 I've I've said before for weapons, I'll read any ad 2:07:20.040 --> 2:07:22.000 for a weapons manufacturer as long as they send me 2:07:22.040 --> 2:07:25.360 some weapons. So come on, guys, get on it. You 2:07:25.360 --> 2:07:27.240 could uh, you could be you could be in the 2:07:27.280 --> 2:07:31.520 middle of this conversation raytheon, you know, send me a 2:07:31.560 --> 2:07:34.360 couple of missile guidance chips. Lockheed Martin. You know you 2:07:34.560 --> 2:07:37.000 want to give me an F thirty five, we'll we'll 2:07:37.040 --> 2:07:40.080 plug you. You know. That's what's that's that's the deal. 2:07:40.560 --> 2:07:44.680 That's how it works. Baby. All right, we're back. Hopefully, 2:07:44.680 --> 2:07:47.200 hopefully you have now heard the advertisement for knife missile 2:07:47.200 --> 2:07:50.520 to knife missile harder now with like five knives that 2:07:50.680 --> 2:07:54.400 I am not making. It actually exists. Yeah. People keep 2:07:54.440 --> 2:07:56.720 being surprised that the R nine X is a real thing. 2:07:56.840 --> 2:07:59.720 And yeah, but there's another one. There's there's one with 2:07:59.760 --> 2:08:02.480 more knives. They put more knives. We do you You're 2:08:02.480 --> 2:08:06.640 not gonna look again, you can't. It's like with Apple products, right, 2:08:07.480 --> 2:08:10.400 planned obsolescence is a critical You have to You can't 2:08:10.440 --> 2:08:13.480 just rest on your laurels. You're gonna run out of money. 2:08:13.680 --> 2:08:15.400 So you've gotta make another knife missile with a couple 2:08:15.400 --> 2:08:19.600 of more knives. Yeah, just keep keep adding knives. Nothing 2:08:19.640 --> 2:08:22.640 can ever go wrong. Do not ask any questions about 2:08:22.640 --> 2:08:27.800 why you're developing knife missiles. Send me one and like 2:08:27.840 --> 2:08:30.520 a drone or three. Swear to God, I'll use it 2:08:30.560 --> 2:08:35.120 for legal purposes. Yeah. So, I guess the last thing 2:08:35.240 --> 2:08:40.360 that I that's that's really interesting about this moment that 2:08:41.120 --> 2:08:46.520 doesn't usually happen is that you know, okay, so if 2:08:46.640 --> 2:08:48.400 if you, if you, if you, if you, you read 2:08:48.440 --> 2:08:50.760 your very basic marks, right. One of the things Mark 2:08:50.840 --> 2:08:52.640 talks about is that there's this thing called the reserve 2:08:52.760 --> 2:08:54.600 Army of labor, which is it's just like, you know, 2:08:54.640 --> 2:08:56.680 there's a bunch of people who are just always unemployed 2:08:57.200 --> 2:09:01.080 and they get along by doing sort of like odd jobs, 2:09:01.320 --> 2:09:05.320 like you know, like my, my, my quintessential person for 2:09:05.360 --> 2:09:07.040 this is like if you ever go on a subway, 2:09:07.480 --> 2:09:09.560 there's you know, it's it's the guy selling candy bars 2:09:09.560 --> 2:09:12.600 in the subway. Yeah, right, it's people who quasi legal 2:09:12.880 --> 2:09:17.000 you know, sometimes they just kind of like doing whatever, 2:09:17.200 --> 2:09:19.960 you know, we call them. In the West Coast, you 2:09:19.960 --> 2:09:23.200 have a lot of those, like yeah, people who tream 2:09:23.240 --> 2:09:25.160 marijuana for a couple of months and then just kind 2:09:25.160 --> 2:09:27.400 of like crashing you know, camp sites the rest of 2:09:27.400 --> 2:09:28.720 the year or whatever. Like yeah, there's a bunch of 2:09:28.760 --> 2:09:31.120 those folks for sure. Yeah. And you know, and like 2:09:31.160 --> 2:09:32.800 the the the number of these people who have been 2:09:32.840 --> 2:09:35.240 just like kicked out of like the formal labor system 2:09:35.240 --> 2:09:39.080 has been increasing for a long time. But what's interesting 2:09:39.080 --> 2:09:42.760 about this moment is that you know, every every strike 2:09:42.840 --> 2:09:45.720 you see, has a second strike behind it, and that 2:09:45.800 --> 2:09:49.040 strike is the informal general strike, which is just again 2:09:49.080 --> 2:09:52.720 people just quitting their jobs and leaving. And you have 2:09:52.800 --> 2:09:55.200 this weird moment where where normally the sort of reserve 2:09:55.280 --> 2:09:57.880 army of labor is this thing that like capitalism can 2:09:57.880 --> 2:09:59.720 always sort of rely on as a way to sort 2:09:59.720 --> 2:10:02.640 of solve its problems because it's like, oh, well, all right, 2:10:02.680 --> 2:10:04.080 if if you're not gonna do this job, we can 2:10:04.080 --> 2:10:08.000 bring another person. But you know this, this is a 2:10:08.040 --> 2:10:10.720 weird moment where like the reserve army of labor is 2:10:10.720 --> 2:10:15.560 like fighting on our side. Mm. And the fact that 2:10:15.640 --> 2:10:19.160 all of these people are just like, you know, they're 2:10:19.160 --> 2:10:22.320 seeing the just incredible authoritarianism of these workplaces that's just 2:10:22.960 --> 2:10:26.080 horrific abuse. The fact that you know they're they're being 2:10:26.160 --> 2:10:28.680 in a lot of cases just asked to show up 2:10:28.680 --> 2:10:34.040 and die and they're saying no is a really sort 2:10:34.080 --> 2:10:37.960 of is a really incredibly powerful thing. And when when 2:10:37.960 --> 2:10:39.800 when you add that to the fact that you know, 2:10:39.880 --> 2:10:42.080 all these companies have completely screwed themselves with how they 2:10:42.080 --> 2:10:43.880 designed the supply chains or it's it's all it's all 2:10:43.880 --> 2:10:47.120 come back around and suddenly all all the supply chain, 2:10:47.200 --> 2:10:49.760 stuff that they carefully laid out over decades and decades 2:10:49.880 --> 2:10:52.560 decades is a way to just like break the union 2:10:52.600 --> 2:10:54.680 movement and make sure nobody ever asked for more wages. 2:10:55.560 --> 2:10:57.880 You know. It's it's it's it's it's been revealed to 2:10:57.880 --> 2:11:01.720 be incredibly fragile and you know, week to our attack, 2:11:02.440 --> 2:11:06.520 and that leads us, I think to this other tension 2:11:06.760 --> 2:11:09.800 in Biden's plan to sort of like revive the economy, 2:11:09.840 --> 2:11:14.600 which is that so the US technically speaking has this 2:11:14.760 --> 2:11:18.880 like very large central planning capability, but it only has 2:11:18.920 --> 2:11:23.080 it to like build weapons. So you know, like the 2:11:23.880 --> 2:11:25.920 army has this incredible ability like that. There there's a 2:11:26.360 --> 2:11:29.160 lot of bullets, you know it despite the huge stress 2:11:29.200 --> 2:11:32.320 on the bullets supply chain, it really has scaled. You know, 2:11:32.400 --> 2:11:36.400 the prices have increased, but we're we're still still still 2:11:36.440 --> 2:11:40.080 getting bullets. America is great at making bullets. Yeah, it's 2:11:40.160 --> 2:11:44.320 less great at keeping tractors working, but it'll be a problem. Yeah. 2:11:44.360 --> 2:11:46.080 Then you're like even if you remember at the beginning 2:11:46.080 --> 2:11:48.080 of the pandemic, it was like the US just couldn't 2:11:48.120 --> 2:11:51.160 produce masks, like we said, we we never we never 2:11:51.240 --> 2:11:54.080 like did that, right, Like that like the government never 2:11:54.120 --> 2:11:56.000 at any point was like we're just gonna make mass 2:11:56.080 --> 2:11:59.080 given the people. They just never did it. And so 2:11:59.200 --> 2:12:01.280 you know, our mass supply all those quy tions suck. 2:12:01.400 --> 2:12:04.360 And the only way that like the states can intervene 2:12:04.960 --> 2:12:06.880 and get the supply chains to work is by doing 2:12:06.880 --> 2:12:09.400 one of two things. It's by either doing a thing 2:12:09.480 --> 2:12:12.680 Biden was doing, which is just go to a bunch 2:12:12.680 --> 2:12:14.400 of companies and tell them to make all of their 2:12:14.440 --> 2:12:17.760 workers work harder, which is the thing that like, you know, 2:12:17.960 --> 2:12:20.640 totally won't backfire or explode in his face. And then 2:12:20.640 --> 2:12:26.080 the second thing is for Biden basically to like do 2:12:26.160 --> 2:12:28.840 all this saber rattling about how we have to have 2:12:29.000 --> 2:12:32.120 like medical supply chains in the US because national defense 2:12:32.200 --> 2:12:35.640 or something, and that's the second thing he's trying to do. 2:12:35.880 --> 2:12:40.560 But you know that just that just makes the problem worse, 2:12:40.680 --> 2:12:43.040 right because once you, once you lose the ability to outsource, 2:12:43.120 --> 2:12:45.360 you you lose the hammer even beating the unions with 2:12:46.720 --> 2:12:49.480 and so you know, all all of the sort of 2:12:51.080 --> 2:12:54.000 all of the tendencies that are you know, making things 2:12:54.240 --> 2:13:00.280 like bad and scary right now are also weirdly making 2:13:00.400 --> 2:13:04.320 this you know the fact that prices are rising right, 2:13:04.440 --> 2:13:08.000 the fact that there's all these shortages, it's it's it's 2:13:08.080 --> 2:13:16.120 making this like the best moment two you know, it's 2:13:16.160 --> 2:13:18.280 it's it's making this the best moment that and that 2:13:18.360 --> 2:13:22.120 anyone's had in ages to actually try to make something better. Yeah, 2:13:22.160 --> 2:13:24.640 and and and the important thing is we're starting to 2:13:24.640 --> 2:13:27.840 see it happen. And yeah, and we're we're we're we're 2:13:27.840 --> 2:13:30.480 gonna talk more about St. October and sort of the 2:13:30.520 --> 2:13:33.839 strike wave and the coming you know, weeks and months. 2:13:33.840 --> 2:13:36.920 But yeah, we're gonna we're gonna be hitting this pretty hard, 2:13:36.960 --> 2:13:38.800 even just next week. Um, we have a lot of 2:13:38.840 --> 2:13:40.600 stuff in the pipeline. Kind of wish we've gotten to 2:13:40.640 --> 2:13:43.240 it earlier, but there's a lot of stuff to talk 2:13:43.280 --> 2:13:46.720 about in the world happening that that's within our milieu. 2:13:46.840 --> 2:13:49.920 It turns out when you're when you're specific focus is 2:13:49.920 --> 2:13:53.480 things falling apart, Uh, you're always behind uncovering all the 2:13:53.520 --> 2:13:56.600 things that are falling on the mark. But I think 2:13:56.600 --> 2:14:00.160 it is a good time to to drive this to 2:14:00.280 --> 2:14:03.880 a close, to drag this episode out behind the farm 2:14:04.120 --> 2:14:06.520 the barn, and and and shoot it and bury it 2:14:06.520 --> 2:14:09.200 in a shallow grave and and break its bones with 2:14:09.240 --> 2:14:13.640 the hammers that the police can't identify it. Chris, Um, 2:14:13.760 --> 2:14:16.920 thank you for putting this together. I got anything anything 2:14:16.920 --> 2:14:22.160 else to say? Uh, quit your job, you or you 2:14:22.280 --> 2:14:25.120 and or unionize your workplace and or take it over 2:14:25.160 --> 2:14:28.440 and run it yourselves, because Lord knows, the people who 2:14:28.520 --> 2:14:31.360 are telling you what to do just literally do not 2:14:31.560 --> 2:14:37.600 care if you die. Yeah, and I mean with with that, sorry, no, no, 2:14:37.600 --> 2:14:41.040 no no, I was just gonna Uh, I don't know 2:14:41.040 --> 2:14:42.760 what I was gonna do, Chris, I don't know what 2:14:42.800 --> 2:14:44.960 I was gonna do. Do do Go go do something. 2:14:45.200 --> 2:14:48.320 You know you're you're listening to things, Go do something. Yeah, 2:14:48.400 --> 2:14:51.320 and and yeah, and if you want to listen to us, 2:14:51.440 --> 2:14:58.320 do more things. We are allegedly allegedly we we we 2:14:58.360 --> 2:15:01.840 are at cool zone media on the Twitter and and 2:15:01.920 --> 2:15:05.560 the You can't prove that in court, it's true. Good luck, 2:15:05.800 --> 2:15:07.200 good luck to them and trying to forgere if that 2:15:07.280 --> 2:15:22.120 we did this. Yeah, that's right. Motherfucker's all right. Uh 2:15:12.880 --> 2:15:25.400 uh I call the Union Hall as his amount of 2:15:25.440 --> 2:15:28.120 life and death. I think these people of planning to 2:15:28.240 --> 2:15:33.080 kill Dr King. On April four, Dr Martin Luther King 2:15:33.120 --> 2:15:36.000 was shot and killed in Memphis. A petty criminal named 2:15:36.040 --> 2:15:38.960 James Earl Ray was arrested. He pled guilty to the 2:15:39.040 --> 2:15:41.240 crime and spent the rest of his life in prison. 2:15:41.680 --> 2:15:47.560 Case closed right James hil Ray was upon for the 2:15:47.640 --> 2:15:52.000 official story. The authorities would parade all we found a 2:15:52.080 --> 2:15:55.000 gun the James L. Ray bought in Birmingham the killed 2:15:55.120 --> 2:15:58.840 Dr King, Except it wasn't the gun that killed Dr King. 2:15:59.320 --> 2:16:02.080 One of the problems that came out when I got 2:16:02.160 --> 2:16:06.240 the Ray case was that some of the evidence, as 2:16:06.240 --> 2:16:09.960 far as I was concerned, did not match the circumstances. 2:16:10.480 --> 2:16:14.040 This is the MLK tapes. The first episodes are available now. 2:16:14.520 --> 2:16:17.600 Listen on the I Heart radio app, Apple podcasts, or 2:16:17.640 --> 2:16:22.360 wherever you get your podcasts. Give us over attention. We 2:16:22.360 --> 2:16:25.480 need everything you've got fast. Waiting on Reparations would be 2:16:25.560 --> 2:16:29.600 the podcast. Tune in every Thursday, politics and wordplay. We 2:16:29.680 --> 2:16:31.560 fight for the people because they got us in the 2:16:31.560 --> 2:16:34.520 worst way. From the Hill Cooper, the bomb bay Ton, 2:16:35.080 --> 2:16:37.400 from the left on Clay to what the neo kanse 2:16:37.840 --> 2:16:41.039 Every Thursday, the heavy conversation and to break us off 2:16:41.040 --> 2:16:45.160 with some break because we're waiting. Listen to Waiting on 2:16:45.240 --> 2:16:48.440 Reparations on the I Heart radio app, Apple podcasts, or 2:16:48.440 --> 2:16:53.280 wherever you get your podcasts. Conquer your new year's resolution 2:16:53.440 --> 2:16:56.760 to be more productive with the Before Breakfast podcast. In 2:16:56.840 --> 2:17:01.160 each bite sized daily episode, time management and productivity expert 2:17:01.320 --> 2:17:03.840 Laura vander Can teaches you how to make the most 2:17:03.840 --> 2:17:06.760 of your time both at work and at home. These 2:17:06.760 --> 2:17:09.880 are the practical suggestions you need to get more done 2:17:10.000 --> 2:17:12.600 with your day. Just as lifting weights keeps our body 2:17:12.760 --> 2:17:15.760 strong as we age, learning new skills is the mental 2:17:15.840 --> 2:17:19.840 equivalent of pumping iron. Listen to Before Breakfast wherever you 2:17:19.879 --> 2:17:31.720 get your podcasts. Excellent work, Chris, that's good. That's good. 2:17:31.760 --> 2:17:34.200 That's the kind of a tonal grunting that people have 2:17:34.280 --> 2:17:37.480 come to express respect from the introductions of my podcast. 2:17:38.480 --> 2:17:40.560 I was hoping it wouldn't be that, but then it 2:17:40.680 --> 2:17:46.760 was so bad that it was great thrill. That's our brand. 2:17:46.879 --> 2:17:50.760 Now it can't be anything else. We've We've established it. Look, 2:17:50.800 --> 2:17:53.720 nobody else is doing that. The Cometown guys, I assume 2:17:53.800 --> 2:17:57.480 aren't a totally grunting to start their podcast. I don't know, actually, 2:17:57.560 --> 2:18:00.880 but I assume not. What is the this podcast? I 2:18:00.879 --> 2:18:04.440 guess this is just how we start. It could happen. 2:18:04.480 --> 2:18:07.400 Here is a podcast you don't sound like you believe 2:18:07.440 --> 2:18:14.960 it enthusiastically, Chris with feeling. This is a podcast happening here. 2:18:15.440 --> 2:18:19.720 That yeah, excellent, that's how we do it. Okay, what 2:18:19.720 --> 2:18:22.360 are we talking about today? Well, one of the things 2:18:22.400 --> 2:18:25.680 that is happening here, as we have discussed briefly in 2:18:25.760 --> 2:18:30.680 previous episodes, is a bunch of strikes. And with us 2:18:30.680 --> 2:18:33.760 today to talk about one of these stripes, specifically the 2:18:33.800 --> 2:18:38.039 Collogue strike. Is Mel Buer, an independent researcher, educator, and 2:18:38.080 --> 2:18:41.680 freelance journalists based in Omaha, Nebraska, where this particular strike 2:18:41.800 --> 2:18:45.040 is taking place, who has done done a lot of 2:18:45.160 --> 2:18:50.039 journalism previously on the local Protestant uprising the street and 2:18:50.200 --> 2:18:56.480 is also researching and writing a book on alternative media. Hi. Hello, 2:18:57.200 --> 2:19:01.400 we welcome to the show Strikes Strikes apparently is what's up? 2:19:01.400 --> 2:19:07.520 It is? It is Strictober. We're doing strikes strike wave baby. Ye. 2:19:09.240 --> 2:19:12.520 So this this specific strike, Um, why don't can you 2:19:12.600 --> 2:19:16.040 can you walk us through a bit about how we 2:19:16.080 --> 2:19:20.880 got to the point where this Kellogg factory is on strike? Um? Well, 2:19:20.959 --> 2:19:25.440 first off, it's four plants. It's all for American Kellogg 2:19:25.520 --> 2:19:29.800 cereal plants have gone on strike. Um, the workers and 2:19:29.840 --> 2:19:33.840 these plants are represented by the bakery, confectionery tobacco workers 2:19:33.840 --> 2:19:37.440 in grain Miller's International Union. I do love that bakriyes 2:19:37.560 --> 2:19:41.480 and tobacco workers are in the same union. Yeah that's 2:19:41.560 --> 2:19:46.720 rat Yeah yeah. So UM their contract was up for 2:19:46.800 --> 2:19:52.800 renegotiation in actually UM and UM due to a series 2:19:52.840 --> 2:19:57.680 of weird things happening, they pushed the negotiations to UM. 2:19:57.720 --> 2:20:02.920 They renegotiate their contract every five years, UM and at 2:20:02.959 --> 2:20:09.280 stake this year UM was a sort of pushing back 2:20:09.320 --> 2:20:13.080 against a recently introduced to tier employment system that they 2:20:13.440 --> 2:20:19.240 company sort of strong armed the union into, which essentially, 2:20:19.720 --> 2:20:23.600 UH is not it's not a good deal for anyone. UM. 2:20:23.640 --> 2:20:27.879 In they pushed in this sort of two tier system 2:20:28.000 --> 2:20:31.760 where one tier is a lower transitional tier and one 2:20:31.760 --> 2:20:36.600 tier is a legacy or full time employee tier. UM. 2:20:36.600 --> 2:20:38.600 And what it is is that you know, it amounts 2:20:38.640 --> 2:20:48.400 to a difference of twelve bucks an hour and less benefits. Yes, yes, UM. 2:20:48.480 --> 2:20:51.720 Dan Osborne recently did an interview with Max Salvarez at 2:20:51.720 --> 2:20:54.000 Working People podcast and he really kind of talked about 2:20:54.040 --> 2:20:57.640 exactly what was going on there. UM. And you know, 2:20:57.640 --> 2:21:00.000 there's fourteen d people who work in four plants there 2:21:00.000 --> 2:21:04.440 is about four employees at the Omaha plant, which has 2:21:04.440 --> 2:21:08.480 been around for decades. And UM, Essentially, what this tier 2:21:08.520 --> 2:21:13.760 system does is it's capped at their union workforce, and 2:21:13.800 --> 2:21:17.800 the whole idea is as these full time employees retire 2:21:18.080 --> 2:21:21.200 or quit, then these transitional employees will sort of be 2:21:21.280 --> 2:21:25.480 funneled into the full time tier. Right over the last 2:21:25.520 --> 2:21:29.480 five years, that hasn't really happened really at all. Um. 2:21:29.520 --> 2:21:31.840 It was a bad deal from the start according to 2:21:31.879 --> 2:21:34.520 many of the workers who sort of felt like they, 2:21:34.720 --> 2:21:36.959 you know, they were backed into a wall because Kellogg's 2:21:37.080 --> 2:21:39.360 was threatening to close the Memphis plant if they didn't 2:21:39.440 --> 2:21:45.000 ratify this negotiated contract. So rather than experience you know, 2:21:45.959 --> 2:21:50.520 five layoffs in Memphis, they just agreed to it. So 2:21:50.680 --> 2:21:55.879 they knew going to the negotiating table in that they 2:21:55.879 --> 2:22:00.680 were going to try and sort of walk that back. Um. 2:22:00.680 --> 2:22:04.440 Because these workers all work in the same plant, same 2:22:04.560 --> 2:22:07.879 days for a second third shift. The transitional workers are 2:22:07.920 --> 2:22:11.120 working side by side with these full time employees, working 2:22:11.160 --> 2:22:14.080 the same hours, which can amount to seven days a week, 2:22:14.400 --> 2:22:17.800 twelve to sixteen hours a day on mandatory over time, 2:22:18.080 --> 2:22:20.880 and they are making twelve dollars an hour less and 2:22:20.920 --> 2:22:24.000 they are not getting the benefits that these full time 2:22:24.000 --> 2:22:26.960 employees are getting. So really, these full time employees are 2:22:27.000 --> 2:22:29.879 kind of going to bat for the transitional employees. Um 2:22:30.040 --> 2:22:33.680 Kelloggs wants to remove the cap which the union negotiated, 2:22:33.879 --> 2:22:36.800 which is att of their workforce. They wanted to do that, 2:22:36.920 --> 2:22:38.720 do a way with that so that they can continue 2:22:38.760 --> 2:22:43.480 hiring more transitional workers, and they want to funk with 2:22:43.520 --> 2:22:50.280 the insurance benefits. So, uh, the union tried to negotiate this. 2:22:50.720 --> 2:22:54.640 I think according to the local union president, Kellogg's negotiators 2:22:54.640 --> 2:22:57.680 were at the negotiating table for ten hours and they 2:22:57.760 --> 2:23:01.320 negotiated eight hours a day, five days a week for 2:23:01.360 --> 2:23:05.280 two weeks. Ten hours there at the table. So they 2:23:05.320 --> 2:23:08.840 weren't interested in negotiating a contract. They had laid out 2:23:08.879 --> 2:23:12.000 their their terms and they essentially told the union to 2:23:12.040 --> 2:23:15.280 go kick rocks. And so the union said, you know, 2:23:15.360 --> 2:23:18.880 we have we have until October five and then our 2:23:18.920 --> 2:23:21.360 contract is up, and if we haven't ratified a new contract, 2:23:21.440 --> 2:23:24.560 then we're going out on strike. And that's ultimately what happened. 2:23:25.080 --> 2:23:27.520 So they've been on strike for this will be their 2:23:27.520 --> 2:23:31.360 fourteenth day today. I think the fight against the two 2:23:31.440 --> 2:23:33.720 tier system. I think is an interesting part of this 2:23:33.760 --> 2:23:36.320 because that's been a huge part of a lot of 2:23:36.360 --> 2:23:39.760 the different strikes you've been seeing since John Deer strikes, 2:23:39.879 --> 2:23:43.240 is part of the Kaiser strikes. And Yeah, I'm wondering 2:23:43.280 --> 2:23:47.400 what you think specifically about the fact that this is like, 2:23:47.680 --> 2:23:50.160 this is the moment that people have decided to like 2:23:50.520 --> 2:23:53.040 push back against against two or even three tier systems 2:23:53.640 --> 2:23:56.440 they were introduced in the last really like ten or 2:23:56.480 --> 2:24:00.160 fifteen years for the most part. Well, I think it's 2:24:00.200 --> 2:24:02.640 you know, it's a divide and conquer strategy for Kellogg's 2:24:02.760 --> 2:24:05.080 or for these other companies. And ultimately, what it looks 2:24:05.080 --> 2:24:10.480 like is it uh destabilizes well established unions, especially at Kellogg's. 2:24:11.200 --> 2:24:16.560 UM and UM, it pits workers against each other, you know, UM, 2:24:16.600 --> 2:24:20.000 particularly at Kellogg's. If they're able to remove this cap 2:24:20.040 --> 2:24:23.600 on this tier system, UM, what they're essentially doing is 2:24:23.600 --> 2:24:28.520 they're creating a more precarious workplace for these workers. UM. 2:24:28.560 --> 2:24:30.840 The turnover rate and the lower tier at the Omaha 2:24:30.879 --> 2:24:36.600 plant is right around UM. And you know, prior to 2:24:37.640 --> 2:24:39.560 you didn't really see a whole lot of people leaving 2:24:39.560 --> 2:24:42.080 the Kellogg's plant. You know, these were these are workers 2:24:42.080 --> 2:24:46.840 who are spending their entire careers at this plant. Their 2:24:46.840 --> 2:24:50.840 parents work their their grandparents work there. You know. Um, 2:24:50.879 --> 2:24:54.760 they because they're all getting paid around the same amount 2:24:54.760 --> 2:24:57.400 of money. There isn't this tension on the line, so 2:24:57.560 --> 2:25:01.840 they're they're working with each other, they're helping each other, right, Um. 2:25:01.920 --> 2:25:06.320 And with this tier system, what they're doing is they're 2:25:06.360 --> 2:25:12.840 throwing these newer workers into uh pretty uh insane factory conditions, 2:25:13.480 --> 2:25:16.600 um and making it really difficult for them to uh, 2:25:16.600 --> 2:25:19.600 I feel like they have any reason to stay there. Right. 2:25:19.879 --> 2:25:22.040 A lot of these people will, you know put in 2:25:23.120 --> 2:25:26.199 some of these workers were transitional workers who weren't officially 2:25:26.280 --> 2:25:29.320 hired by the company. You know, there aren't full time employees. 2:25:29.360 --> 2:25:32.840 They aren't receiving benefits like the full time employees are 2:25:33.160 --> 2:25:36.680 for five years. They work this every day, seven days 2:25:36.680 --> 2:25:39.720 a week, three months on end. Right. Uh. They have 2:25:39.840 --> 2:25:43.200 this really you know punitive attendance based points system that 2:25:43.920 --> 2:25:47.200 discourages you calling in sick. There's injuries that happened in 2:25:47.240 --> 2:25:49.840 the factory all the time. You know. I went out 2:25:49.879 --> 2:25:53.480 to the line and wrote a piece for the Real 2:25:53.560 --> 2:25:56.959 News about this, and pretty much every person I talked 2:25:57.000 --> 2:26:01.240 to showed me scars from accidents that happened injuries in 2:26:01.280 --> 2:26:05.040 the plant. Um. The union president himself got his hand 2:26:05.680 --> 2:26:09.480 stuck in a um like a mill and broke all 2:26:09.480 --> 2:26:10.879 the fingers in his hand. He had to have ten 2:26:10.920 --> 2:26:14.600 surgeries on his hand. You know. Um, there was an 2:26:14.600 --> 2:26:18.000 accident at the plant two or three weeks ago where 2:26:18.040 --> 2:26:21.520 a transitional employee got both arms stuck in a conveyor belt. 2:26:21.640 --> 2:26:26.920 You know. Um. The thing is is these folks super 2:26:26.959 --> 2:26:31.280 proud of the work that they do, like absolutely take 2:26:31.360 --> 2:26:35.120 this work extremely seriously. You know, they're not even asking 2:26:35.240 --> 2:26:39.440 for changes to their overtime. They are not asking for 2:26:39.840 --> 2:26:42.640 you know anything that you know from me on the outside, 2:26:42.640 --> 2:26:46.199 I'd be fighting for more humane working conditions. But to them, 2:26:46.240 --> 2:26:49.720 you know, it's it's not like it's a point of pride, 2:26:49.959 --> 2:26:54.720 but they feel that they have put blood, sweat, tears, uh, 2:26:54.760 --> 2:26:58.440 you know, fractured relationships, time that they could be spending 2:26:58.440 --> 2:27:02.040 with their children in to this factory and Kelloggs is 2:27:02.160 --> 2:27:06.160 essentially fucking them over. Yeah. You know, they see, as 2:27:06.280 --> 2:27:09.200 we have sacrificed for this company for years and years 2:27:09.200 --> 2:27:12.840 and years, um, and we are asking for equal pay 2:27:12.920 --> 2:27:15.640 for all and for everyone to have the same health 2:27:15.680 --> 2:27:18.960 care so that we can do this job, you know, 2:27:19.240 --> 2:27:23.880 and Kelloggs is saying no, absolutely, you know. I think 2:27:24.240 --> 2:27:27.199 the union president said that some of the negotiators called 2:27:27.240 --> 2:27:32.760 those demands outlandish during negotiations, which I think is just incredible, 2:27:32.959 --> 2:27:36.240 you know, just corporate greed. Yeah. I think the other 2:27:36.280 --> 2:27:40.080 part of the story is that, like I mean, it's 2:27:40.160 --> 2:27:42.080 kind of a weird consequence of it, but like one 2:27:42.120 --> 2:27:44.039 of the things, one of those consequences is sort of 2:27:44.080 --> 2:27:48.119 like rising like staple commodity prices, staple grain prices and stuff. 2:27:48.160 --> 2:27:50.240 Is that Kelloggs like they're doing they have like record 2:27:50.240 --> 2:27:53.560 they have record profits right now and they're still just 2:27:53.680 --> 2:27:57.119 doing this ship because yeah, they made record profits during 2:27:57.160 --> 2:28:03.840 the pandemic. They gave their CEO, uh, pretty hefty raise bonus. UM, 2:28:03.840 --> 2:28:08.000 there was a stock buyback program that helped happened among 2:28:08.120 --> 2:28:10.520 the c suite folks last year. They made a lot 2:28:10.600 --> 2:28:13.320 of money, a lot of money. And um, you know, 2:28:13.360 --> 2:28:18.000 these workers worked every day through the pandemic, um continually understaffed, 2:28:18.320 --> 2:28:22.920 you know, UM, doing their best because again, they they 2:28:23.440 --> 2:28:26.400 take this job very seriously and they are proud that 2:28:26.440 --> 2:28:29.200 they are feeding the American people, you know, UM, and 2:28:29.240 --> 2:28:32.480 they are proud to work at Kellogg's and uh, they 2:28:32.560 --> 2:28:38.240 feel that this contract is just shit, it's just ship 2:28:38.680 --> 2:28:41.360 and you know the only sensible thing to do is 2:28:41.400 --> 2:28:43.640 to to walk out on strike because you know, they've 2:28:43.640 --> 2:28:47.400 been backed into a corner and negotiations have stagnated completely. 2:28:47.840 --> 2:28:54.879 You know. Um, and um, they don't want to They 2:28:54.920 --> 2:28:57.959 don't want to back down from this, you know. Um, 2:28:58.080 --> 2:29:00.200 they and I agree. I feel what they're what they're 2:29:00.200 --> 2:29:02.920 asking for is fair. It's very fair. I mean, I 2:29:03.000 --> 2:29:06.720 think it's I think asking for a lot more would 2:29:06.720 --> 2:29:10.280 be fair, but not my place to be doing. One 2:29:10.320 --> 2:29:11.840 of the things that strikes me about this you talk 2:29:11.879 --> 2:29:15.640 about this tier system that Kellogg's introduced, which I can't 2:29:15.680 --> 2:29:19.320 help but think of what happened that John Deere, where 2:29:19.360 --> 2:29:22.480 they I think in nineties six cut pensions by two 2:29:22.520 --> 2:29:26.480 thirds and then like last year eliminated them entirely. And 2:29:26.520 --> 2:29:30.120 this kind of bid to pit chunks of the workforced 2:29:30.160 --> 2:29:33.720 against each other. Um, where you have like you know, 2:29:33.800 --> 2:29:36.920 different groups making different amounts and sort of like, I 2:29:36.920 --> 2:29:39.039 don't know, it seems kind of like the strategy that 2:29:39.040 --> 2:29:42.240 you see in the broader economy, like written within within 2:29:42.920 --> 2:29:45.280 the space of a company, where you've got like some 2:29:45.320 --> 2:29:48.240 people who are getting pretty well taken care of in 2:29:48.280 --> 2:29:51.320 their jobs and other newer people who are who are 2:29:51.320 --> 2:29:53.879 getting more screwed over in kind of this this attempt 2:29:53.959 --> 2:29:57.400 to create division within the workforce so that this this 2:29:57.520 --> 2:30:01.200 kind of organizing doesn't happen. M M m M. I 2:30:01.200 --> 2:30:02.880 would agree. And you also have to think, you know, 2:30:02.920 --> 2:30:05.959 if they are able to remove this cap on the 2:30:06.000 --> 2:30:09.360 transitional tier, but that means that this is they'll be 2:30:09.400 --> 2:30:13.360 able to instead of say, say a full time employee retires, 2:30:14.680 --> 2:30:17.240 they leave that space empty, but they still need an 2:30:17.320 --> 2:30:20.560 extra space, an extra person, right, so they can just 2:30:20.720 --> 2:30:24.959 hire a transitional worker instead of funneling one of those 2:30:25.000 --> 2:30:30.000 transitional workers into that full time space. Ah, what ends 2:30:30.080 --> 2:30:34.000 up happening is suddenly you have instead of seventy full 2:30:34.040 --> 2:30:39.280 time to transitional. The it starts tipping, right, it becomes 2:30:39.320 --> 2:30:42.280 a more precarious workforce. Then say, for example, they do 2:30:42.360 --> 2:30:44.480 that in the next five years, you know, now they 2:30:44.480 --> 2:30:48.360 have seventy percent of these transitional workers who don't think 2:30:48.400 --> 2:30:51.560 the union is offering anything for them. They can essentially 2:30:51.640 --> 2:30:54.680 just offer a better deal to these transitional workers and 2:30:54.800 --> 2:30:57.160 kick the union out of the company at some point, 2:30:57.560 --> 2:31:00.920 you know, um, and these folks on the line understand 2:31:00.959 --> 2:31:04.160 that and know that that's kind of Kellogg's plan, right. 2:31:04.280 --> 2:31:06.640 They know that the Kelloggs, what Kelloggs is trying to 2:31:06.680 --> 2:31:11.480 do is essentially destabilize the power of the union inside 2:31:11.480 --> 2:31:15.440 the plants. And everyone on the line that I've spoken with, 2:31:16.080 --> 2:31:19.040 I know exactly what's happening, you know. And these full 2:31:19.080 --> 2:31:23.120 time employees are out there every day making sure that 2:31:23.200 --> 2:31:26.680 their transitional and you know, colleagues know that that's why 2:31:26.680 --> 2:31:30.800 they're out there because they want to not allow this 2:31:31.040 --> 2:31:34.480 to be something that divides their workforce. It remains to 2:31:34.480 --> 2:31:36.720 be seen what's going to happen, you know what I mean. 2:31:37.959 --> 2:31:40.920 They've brought in scabs to get the plant up and 2:31:41.000 --> 2:31:47.680 running again, and most recently, uh, yesterday this morning. Yesterday, 2:31:48.440 --> 2:31:53.000 the Building and Construction Trades Council union met with the 2:31:53.120 --> 2:31:57.520 union president in Omaha because they have about a hundred 2:31:57.600 --> 2:32:01.520 third party iron workers, carpenters, atricians, and skilled trades people 2:32:01.640 --> 2:32:07.040 that are union trades people that have contracts at Kellogg's. 2:32:07.720 --> 2:32:11.920 And they came to what Dan Osborne, the union president, 2:32:11.959 --> 2:32:16.360 decided called was a tough decision that those union workers 2:32:16.360 --> 2:32:19.000 are going to cross the picket line to honor those contracts. 2:32:19.680 --> 2:32:23.879 So Kelloggs is forcing the unions in the city in 2:32:24.120 --> 2:32:27.680 like into a bind really because they're they're you know, 2:32:28.120 --> 2:32:31.960 uh going to lose their own contracts at Kellogg's. So 2:32:32.280 --> 2:32:35.040 that's kind of been like the most recent development here 2:32:35.280 --> 2:32:39.800 is that rather than just temps coming in, we have 2:32:39.920 --> 2:32:44.400 now skilled union trades people from various Omaha unions who 2:32:44.400 --> 2:32:48.440 are also crossing the picket line two honor their contracts 2:32:48.480 --> 2:32:53.400 at Kellogg's, you know, um past these striking workers. So 2:32:54.600 --> 2:32:58.960 it's a bit of a mess a little bit, you know. Yeah, 2:32:59.320 --> 2:33:03.440 there's so going on right now. I'm kind of wondering 2:33:03.480 --> 2:33:06.680 what you think are the because we've got a number 2:33:06.720 --> 2:33:08.680 of strikes kind of all coming to ahead at the 2:33:08.720 --> 2:33:11.520 same time, I'm wondering, specifically from the Kellogg strike, what 2:33:11.520 --> 2:33:14.119 do you think are kind of the lessons that should 2:33:14.120 --> 2:33:17.080 be taken from what's happened so far for the broader 2:33:17.160 --> 2:33:20.840 labor movement. UM. I think the biggest thing that's kind 2:33:20.879 --> 2:33:25.160 of impacted me as I've gone to the line. UM, 2:33:25.200 --> 2:33:27.760 I've stood on the picket line, I've covered these you know, 2:33:27.840 --> 2:33:31.879 this strike, I've talked to people, UM, is that when 2:33:31.920 --> 2:33:36.360 these types of actions happen. They really only can be 2:33:36.480 --> 2:33:40.800 sustained because the community comes together to support them. You know. Um, 2:33:42.080 --> 2:33:45.480 these strike funds that are going around and folks showing 2:33:45.520 --> 2:33:47.240 up to stand on the picket line who are not 2:33:47.320 --> 2:33:50.200 part of the union are really sort of become you know, 2:33:50.240 --> 2:33:55.080 they are helping support these workers who can only hold 2:33:55.080 --> 2:33:59.039 out so long with finite resources. Right. So the big 2:33:59.080 --> 2:34:05.240 thing to is that past these news cycles of excitement 2:34:05.360 --> 2:34:08.360 of striked ober of you know, these people just walked 2:34:08.360 --> 2:34:10.400 out today, Well they may be you know, they may 2:34:10.400 --> 2:34:12.240 be on the line for months and months on end, 2:34:12.440 --> 2:34:15.200 and the new cycle is going to move on, and 2:34:15.240 --> 2:34:17.360 these communities are still going to have to try and 2:34:17.360 --> 2:34:21.800 and and back up these labor actions, right Um. You 2:34:21.840 --> 2:34:25.040 really can't have true you know, you can't have a 2:34:25.120 --> 2:34:30.080 labor movement without you know, support, right um. And that's 2:34:30.120 --> 2:34:33.959 kind of been the biggest thing that has impacted me particularly. 2:34:34.120 --> 2:34:37.200 You know this Almaha used to be a really formidable 2:34:37.280 --> 2:34:40.160 union time. You know, back in the eighties, it was 2:34:40.200 --> 2:34:43.600 really really something to see that the business unions in 2:34:43.600 --> 2:34:46.440 in the various locals here really had some of these 2:34:46.520 --> 2:34:50.400 union leaders had more political power than the mayor, right Um, 2:34:50.520 --> 2:34:53.440 And that has gone downhill over the last forty years, 2:34:53.680 --> 2:34:58.160 and it's really cool to see, uh, the level of 2:34:58.200 --> 2:35:01.840 solidarity that's happening amongst community, you know, um in the 2:35:01.840 --> 2:35:03.760 ways in which people are kind of coming out to 2:35:03.800 --> 2:35:06.240 talk to and and be a part of this strike 2:35:06.440 --> 2:35:09.519 and to remind these Kellogg's workers that they're not operating 2:35:09.520 --> 2:35:11.600 in a bubble, you know, and that the rest of 2:35:11.640 --> 2:35:14.880 the community really hopes that the strike will end quickly 2:35:15.080 --> 2:35:20.320 and peacefully and with a really good resolution for these workers. 2:35:20.680 --> 2:35:25.280 You know. Whatever thing I wanted to ask about in 2:35:25.280 --> 2:35:28.600 in terms of sort of this this kind of research 2:35:28.640 --> 2:35:32.160 in to the union movements and in in in terms 2:35:32.200 --> 2:35:36.879 of sort of communities support is the level of violence 2:35:37.080 --> 2:35:41.640 that there's been against, like against the strikes. I've seen 2:35:41.640 --> 2:35:45.160 a lot of like stuff about people cann hit by 2:35:45.200 --> 2:35:48.800 buses and like, and I don't I don't know if 2:35:50.000 --> 2:35:51.440 I think I think I'm getting my strikes. I don't 2:35:51.440 --> 2:35:54.280 don't know if they've they've been direct car attacks on 2:35:54.320 --> 2:35:55.920 this specific picket line, but that's been I think that 2:35:56.600 --> 2:35:59.199 it's been happening a lot. And I was a couple 2:35:59.240 --> 2:36:04.120 of documented races. Yeah, yeah, and yeah, I was wondering 2:36:04.200 --> 2:36:07.400 what you think about that, and like what actually can 2:36:07.440 --> 2:36:10.920 be done about the fact that, like you know that 2:36:11.040 --> 2:36:12.960 you know, like this just the fact that we're just 2:36:12.959 --> 2:36:17.480 seeing auto attacks on picket lines regularly now, I mean 2:36:17.959 --> 2:36:24.279 that's you know, it's a it's a shitty development. You know. Um. 2:36:24.440 --> 2:36:28.400 I was out on the picket line last Thursday and UM, 2:36:29.200 --> 2:36:32.560 they were attempting to bring in busses at shift change 2:36:32.680 --> 2:36:37.000 past the the picketers who walk slowly. You know, they 2:36:37.000 --> 2:36:38.520 don't want to stop in front of the bus. It's 2:36:38.520 --> 2:36:41.920 illegal to stop and and you know make it, you know, 2:36:42.000 --> 2:36:44.720 so that they can't pass through the gates, but they 2:36:44.720 --> 2:36:48.080 slow them down for a little bit. And UM, one 2:36:48.120 --> 2:36:52.480 gentleman was trying, you know, was standing there and this 2:36:52.560 --> 2:36:57.080 bus just bumped right into them. You know, there's videos 2:36:57.120 --> 2:37:01.000 that have been shared through local news of buses knocking 2:37:01.040 --> 2:37:04.680 down workers as they're trying to cross the picket line. UM. 2:37:04.720 --> 2:37:07.680 And I you know, there are also the personal vehicles 2:37:07.720 --> 2:37:10.280 that go through and it could be the private security 2:37:10.360 --> 2:37:15.560 that's been hired, it could be managers. UM. But you know, 2:37:15.640 --> 2:37:21.000 they're running through these lines really quickly dangerously. It's unfortunate, 2:37:21.280 --> 2:37:23.760 and you know, I don't have an answer for what 2:37:23.879 --> 2:37:28.640 the best h solution for that is, you know, but 2:37:29.040 --> 2:37:34.080 vehicle tax have become sort of more Uh. I don't 2:37:34.080 --> 2:37:36.200 want to say commonplace, but you see them happening a 2:37:36.280 --> 2:37:40.640 lot both at protests last year, and you know, I 2:37:40.640 --> 2:37:44.560 think Warrior met Cole had some bosses running through the 2:37:44.600 --> 2:37:48.679 lines and being reckless with their vehicles. You know. Um, 2:37:48.800 --> 2:37:51.000 the problem is is on the on the back end. 2:37:51.240 --> 2:37:55.480 The police don't step in when they see these instances, 2:37:55.959 --> 2:37:59.640 you know. Um and in fact, last Thursday, when we 2:37:59.760 --> 2:38:04.720 have hundred plus motorcyclists from various mc s show up 2:38:04.760 --> 2:38:08.960 to support the strike, um, the police were the ones 2:38:09.000 --> 2:38:12.119 who protected the scabs and made sure that they made 2:38:12.120 --> 2:38:15.680 it through the picket line. So you know, UM, the 2:38:15.720 --> 2:38:18.520 answer to that, IM not sure. You know. Yeah, I 2:38:18.560 --> 2:38:22.959 mean that's a time honored police tradition. Yeah, they historically 2:38:23.040 --> 2:38:28.480 don't don't exist to protect laborers, with the notable exception 2:38:28.680 --> 2:38:32.640 of of the sheriff And what was that Mattawan and 2:38:32.760 --> 2:38:36.920 uh during the um the coal miner strike in West Virginia. 2:38:37.280 --> 2:38:40.959 M Well yeah they shot him so well yeah, but 2:38:41.000 --> 2:38:46.560 he shot some people first. Yeah, Um, Sid Hatfield that 2:38:46.600 --> 2:38:49.880 was the name. Yeah, I don't know, Um, I've gotten 2:38:49.879 --> 2:38:51.360 to know some of these folks on the line of 2:38:51.400 --> 2:38:54.440 the last two weeks, and they're just fantastic human beings, 2:38:54.480 --> 2:38:59.520 you know. Um, they are accommodating and hard working, and 2:38:59.560 --> 2:39:01.560 they come from all age brackets and they bring their 2:39:01.600 --> 2:39:04.760 families out and you know they're getting they're getting a 2:39:04.800 --> 2:39:09.160 raw deal from Kellogg's. And UM, so far, the community 2:39:09.200 --> 2:39:13.039 support has been overwhelmingly positive. UM, there hasn't really been 2:39:13.400 --> 2:39:15.960 like at the John Deer strike. They're not getting eggs 2:39:15.959 --> 2:39:19.160 thrown out them, you know. UM, they get a lot 2:39:19.200 --> 2:39:24.199 more honking and messages of support than they do people 2:39:24.440 --> 2:39:28.840 driving by to yell at them for uh, you know, 2:39:29.320 --> 2:39:33.800 being a strike. So that's been nice to see, you know. Um. 2:39:33.840 --> 2:39:38.240 And actually this weekend on Saturday, UM, there's gonna be 2:39:38.360 --> 2:39:44.160 a like cool vintage car show cruise around Kellogg's event 2:39:44.200 --> 2:39:48.400 that they've got planned. The fire departments bringing rigs and 2:39:48.720 --> 2:39:53.680 um teamsters yeah, yeah, and the teamsters are bringing cars 2:39:53.720 --> 2:39:55.600 and then there's a bunch of vintage car clubs that 2:39:55.600 --> 2:39:58.560 are gonna be coming out. So you know, those types 2:39:58.600 --> 2:40:00.560 of things I like really kind of like fired up 2:40:00.560 --> 2:40:02.360 these people to keep them out on the line as 2:40:02.360 --> 2:40:05.199 long as they need to be, you know. So communities 2:40:05.240 --> 2:40:09.640 there for him. One of the things I'm continuing to 2:40:09.720 --> 2:40:13.480 wonder about is what it takes to close the gap 2:40:13.800 --> 2:40:18.440 between understanding that you and your colleagues are getting screwed 2:40:18.480 --> 2:40:21.680 over by this system and understanding that you and all 2:40:21.680 --> 2:40:23.760 of the other people striking at the same time, and 2:40:23.800 --> 2:40:26.680 perhaps even a bunch of people not striking, are all 2:40:26.760 --> 2:40:29.160 kind of fighting the same fight. And then maybe there's 2:40:30.560 --> 2:40:34.440 grander things to achieve than the negotiation of a single contract, 2:40:34.440 --> 2:40:38.080 because that seems like the big leap that is going 2:40:38.120 --> 2:40:43.960 to be the real struggle to clear. Uh. Yeah, you know. Um. 2:40:44.000 --> 2:40:46.240 I will say that some of the workers are fully 2:40:46.280 --> 2:40:48.960 aware that this is not just about a single contract 2:40:49.000 --> 2:40:53.360 negotiation and is actually, you know, more about struggles of 2:40:53.400 --> 2:40:56.560 the working class against corporate greed and the ways in 2:40:56.560 --> 2:40:58.720 which the working class gets their asses handed to them 2:40:58.760 --> 2:41:02.760 all the time, um um. And they know that they 2:41:02.760 --> 2:41:05.200 know that at some point, perhaps at some point in 2:41:05.200 --> 2:41:07.720 the future, someone else is going to look at their 2:41:07.760 --> 2:41:11.960 example and be inspired by it. Right. Um. As far 2:41:12.000 --> 2:41:16.600 as like maybe I don't know, ideologically speaking or politically speaking, 2:41:17.160 --> 2:41:20.720 for these folks, it's uh doesn't fit into any sort 2:41:20.760 --> 2:41:25.520 of ideology leftist or conservative or whatever. Everyone's got their 2:41:25.520 --> 2:41:27.720 own personal politics, but they don't really talk about it 2:41:27.760 --> 2:41:31.640 on the line. What they talk about is working class 2:41:32.120 --> 2:41:35.720 versus ruling class. Um that you know, that's their sense. 2:41:35.720 --> 2:41:39.960 It's corporate greed, it's um. Asshole CEO is making eleven 2:41:39.959 --> 2:41:42.920 point six million dollars a year while they're struggling to 2:41:42.920 --> 2:41:47.840 pay their own bills, you know. UM. And and you 2:41:47.879 --> 2:41:52.960 know that conversation is more common than UM. Trying to 2:41:53.040 --> 2:41:56.960 fit this into a larger political movement or revolutionary movement, 2:41:57.040 --> 2:42:00.440 if that makes sense, you know, yeah, um. But I 2:42:00.440 --> 2:42:03.040 would say that the vast majority of the workers, regardless 2:42:03.080 --> 2:42:06.120 of their own personal politics, have a very clear sense 2:42:06.160 --> 2:42:09.520 of where they sit in terms of class consciousness and 2:42:09.840 --> 2:42:13.960 understand that this is one of one of the most 2:42:14.000 --> 2:42:18.120 effective tactics to try and force the hand of these assholes, 2:42:18.320 --> 2:42:21.960 you know, UM, is to withhold work and withhold their labor. 2:42:22.560 --> 2:42:25.800 So well, this has been great. I mean, that's everything 2:42:25.800 --> 2:42:28.360 I had to ask Chris. Anything else not that not 2:42:28.400 --> 2:42:30.760 that I have. So there is there a call to 2:42:30.879 --> 2:42:33.480 action we could have for our listeners or pages people 2:42:33.480 --> 2:42:37.120 should be following strike fund Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's a 2:42:37.160 --> 2:42:39.440 go fund me, and there's a PayPal set up for 2:42:39.480 --> 2:42:42.160 the Almaja strikers. I believe the b c t g 2:42:42.440 --> 2:42:47.840 M international page has like a page of each of 2:42:47.840 --> 2:42:50.320 the strike funds for each of the four plants, So 2:42:50.400 --> 2:42:52.240 that might be something that you might not want to 2:42:52.240 --> 2:42:54.160 share with your listeners. I can send you an email 2:42:54.200 --> 2:42:57.640 with that, UM, because it's probably going to be easier 2:42:57.680 --> 2:43:01.240 to do UM. But yeah, it's ours. I know. Bct 2:43:01.400 --> 2:43:04.879 g M isn't called for an official boycott of Kellogg's products, However, 2:43:05.600 --> 2:43:08.600 they wouldn't be mad if you just didn't buy any 2:43:08.800 --> 2:43:11.600 right now. There was some talk last week that some 2:43:11.680 --> 2:43:14.120 of the picketers might you know, be flying outside of 2:43:14.120 --> 2:43:17.160 grocery stores to try and educate the community on what's 2:43:17.160 --> 2:43:20.760 going on with this strike. But beyond that, they also 2:43:20.800 --> 2:43:23.320 are concerned about the quality of the food being produced 2:43:23.320 --> 2:43:25.720 by scabs. So it probably would be healthy for you 2:43:25.760 --> 2:43:29.480 to not by the food, you know, because I think 2:43:29.520 --> 2:43:33.840 it was in what two thousand eighteen during the works 2:43:34.120 --> 2:43:37.400 a lockout in Memphis, the same company that they brought 2:43:37.440 --> 2:43:41.720 in then that they're bringing in now uh piste in 2:43:41.760 --> 2:43:45.600 the cereal on the line, and they didn't release video 2:43:45.640 --> 2:43:49.879 of that for two years after the incident, So it 2:43:50.000 --> 2:44:01.680 ended up in someone's home, you know, GROSSI yikes. Yeah, yeah, 2:44:01.680 --> 2:44:04.840 that's pretty fun right. Um. So yeah, you know, uh, 2:44:05.440 --> 2:44:09.200 support your local strike fund and if you are in 2:44:09.400 --> 2:44:12.120 a city where Kellogg's plant is striking, I'm sure those 2:44:12.120 --> 2:44:17.199 workers would love love to to hear from you fill 2:44:17.200 --> 2:44:22.480 your support. So where and where can our listeners follow you? 2:44:23.720 --> 2:44:27.680 I am on Twitter primarily at cold Brood Tool. I 2:44:27.680 --> 2:44:31.520 don't know why I picked that name, but yeah, yeah 2:44:31.640 --> 2:44:34.520 I got. I haven't changed that handle since I got 2:44:34.560 --> 2:44:39.879 into Twitter, so um, but yeah, that's usually where I'm at. Otherwise, 2:44:39.959 --> 2:44:42.680 you know, I teach locally and had to have a 2:44:42.680 --> 2:44:46.119 podcast that I'm developing and do a bunch of different projects. 2:44:46.120 --> 2:44:47.760 So Twitter is the best way to get a hold 2:44:47.760 --> 2:44:52.120 of me if you have questions. Awesome, all right, thanks 2:44:52.120 --> 2:44:56.080 for having me on folks. Apate, thanks for thanks for 2:44:56.160 --> 2:44:58.600 joining us. I'll be back at the picket line, you know, 2:44:58.760 --> 2:45:01.400 talking to these folks and and um, gonna do my 2:45:01.400 --> 2:45:03.120 best to keep this ship in the new cycles so 2:45:03.160 --> 2:45:06.080 that they aren't forgotten. So awesome. We've got a link 2:45:06.120 --> 2:45:07.600 to the strike fund and some other ways to help 2:45:07.680 --> 2:45:09.800 me in the description. So yeah, this has been it 2:45:09.800 --> 2:45:12.680 could Happen Here Pod, follow us on Twitter, Instagram, at 2:45:12.959 --> 2:45:16.800 Happened Here Pod, and at cools on Media. For all 2:45:16.840 --> 2:45:27.320 the rest of our shows, make sure to check out 2:45:27.400 --> 2:45:30.000 Drink Champs, your number one music podcast on the Black 2:45:30.040 --> 2:45:32.720 Effect Podcast Network, host n O r E and d 2:45:32.840 --> 2:45:35.440 J E f N sat down with artists and icon Yea, 2:45:35.879 --> 2:45:40.320 which Vulture called one of most significant interviews. I literally 2:45:40.400 --> 2:45:42.640 had to go like Danos and I don't want to 2:45:42.640 --> 2:45:44.600 have to be the villain. But when I went and 2:45:44.640 --> 2:45:48.680 did the Donda thing, he returned and anybody had to 2:45:48.680 --> 2:45:51.840 sit back and watch the real leader. Check out Drink 2:45:51.920 --> 2:45:55.160 Champs conversation with Yea and many more legendary artists each 2:45:55.200 --> 2:45:58.240 and every Friday on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, 2:45:58.360 --> 2:46:04.240 or wherever you listen to your favorite knows. I'm Jake Halbern, 2:46:04.480 --> 2:46:07.520 host of deep Cover. Our new season is about a 2:46:07.600 --> 2:46:11.720 lawyer who helped the mob run Chicago. We controlled the courts, 2:46:11.800 --> 2:46:16.320 we controlled absolutely everything. He bribed judges and even helped 2:46:16.320 --> 2:46:19.400 a hit man walk free until one day when he 2:46:19.400 --> 2:46:22.720 started talking with the FBI and promised that he could 2:46:22.760 --> 2:46:25.880 take the mob down. I've spent the past year trying 2:46:25.879 --> 2:46:27.960 to figure out why he flipped and what he was 2:46:28.000 --> 2:46:31.240 really after. From my perspective, Bob was too good to 2:46:31.240 --> 2:46:33.360 be true. There's got to be something wrong with this. 2:46:33.920 --> 2:46:36.440 I wouldn't trust the guy. He looks like a little 2:46:36.520 --> 2:46:39.120 scum big lawyer still bidging. He looked like what he 2:46:39.240 --> 2:46:42.000 was or at. I can say with all certainty I 2:46:42.040 --> 2:46:44.120 think he's a hero because he didn't have to do 2:46:44.160 --> 2:46:46.280 what he did, and he did it anyway. The moment 2:46:46.360 --> 2:46:49.080 I put the wire around the first time, my life 2:46:49.120 --> 2:46:52.000 was over. If it ever got out, they would kill 2:46:52.000 --> 2:46:54.920 me in a heartbeat. Listen to Deep Cover on the 2:46:54.920 --> 2:46:57.960 I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get 2:46:58.000 --> 2:47:08.920 your podcasts. Hey everybody, Robert Evans here your favorite podcast 2:47:08.959 --> 2:47:12.720 are also legally the only podcaster that that people are 2:47:12.760 --> 2:47:15.879 allowed to enjoy on the internet. Here to introduce a 2:47:15.920 --> 2:47:18.920 really exciting episode of it could happen here. So for 2:47:18.920 --> 2:47:21.400 the last bit of time, I've been in and out 2:47:21.400 --> 2:47:23.120 of touch with a number of members of the Puget 2:47:23.160 --> 2:47:27.680 Sound John Brown Club. They have provided armed self defense 2:47:28.000 --> 2:47:31.080 groups for a couple of different protests in the Washington 2:47:31.200 --> 2:47:34.360 area over the last year and change. Um and we 2:47:34.440 --> 2:47:36.360 wanted to sit down and talk to them about the 2:47:36.400 --> 2:47:39.680 ideas behind community self defense, how to do it responsibly, 2:47:39.720 --> 2:47:42.640 how to do it irresponsibly. We also had some discussions 2:47:42.640 --> 2:47:46.120 with them about the disasters that happened at the Chop 2:47:46.160 --> 2:47:49.120 Slash Chazz last year. They were not involved with that 2:47:49.240 --> 2:47:51.800 as an organization, UM, but they have some insights on 2:47:51.840 --> 2:47:54.200 the matter. UM. That's going to be coming at you 2:47:54.240 --> 2:47:56.720 in a separate episode or maybe even a couple of 2:47:56.760 --> 2:47:59.360 episodes in the near future. Today we're just kind of 2:47:59.400 --> 2:48:03.040 talking about concepts of armed community self defense. You know, 2:48:03.120 --> 2:48:05.959 what's responsible, what's irresponsible, how people should think about it. 2:48:06.560 --> 2:48:09.920 I think you'll enjoy the conversation here. It is a 2:48:10.000 --> 2:48:12.840 decent chunk of the folks listening, especially the Portlanders, will 2:48:12.879 --> 2:48:15.680 have experience with UH and that that Garrison and I 2:48:15.720 --> 2:48:18.439 have certainly had experienced with. It is people at protests 2:48:19.120 --> 2:48:23.519 declaring themselves security, sometimes even wearing shirts that say security, 2:48:23.560 --> 2:48:26.879 and picking up a variety of weapons off in paintball 2:48:26.920 --> 2:48:32.160 guns and mace and using them often irresponsibly on other protesters, 2:48:32.360 --> 2:48:35.959 on on bystanders in the name of of of keeping 2:48:35.959 --> 2:48:39.720 things safe and UM. I think we're pretty clear and 2:48:39.760 --> 2:48:42.440 I think most reasonable people can see that that's not 2:48:42.680 --> 2:48:47.000 community self defense. But often those people uh certainly claim 2:48:47.080 --> 2:48:50.200 that what they're doing is community self defense UM. And 2:48:50.560 --> 2:48:53.680 I'm specifically wanting to start by getting a kind of 2:48:53.720 --> 2:48:56.600 a range of definitions from folks. As you are all 2:48:56.640 --> 2:49:00.480 people who have engaged in community self defense UM, and 2:49:00.520 --> 2:49:04.480 particularly armed community self defense. What do you see as 2:49:04.800 --> 2:49:08.879 the actual role of community self defense and how should 2:49:08.879 --> 2:49:11.160 it look as opposed to, you know, a guy with 2:49:11.200 --> 2:49:14.320 a paintball gun yelling at kids for tagging a window. 2:49:15.160 --> 2:49:16.840 Ray You wanna you want to kick us off with 2:49:16.840 --> 2:49:21.880 an answer there, I do. Community defense should be part 2:49:21.920 --> 2:49:25.720 of the a broad health and safety infrastructure set up 2:49:25.800 --> 2:49:29.560 for a protest movement or a community. Being deliberately vague here, 2:49:30.160 --> 2:49:35.520 but specifically, armed community defense deals with mitigating lethal and 2:49:35.760 --> 2:49:39.600 egregious harm to members of a community. The goal is 2:49:39.640 --> 2:49:44.879 forced and foremost prevention, mitigation and control of those threats. 2:49:45.760 --> 2:49:49.560 In my mind, ideally community defense would involve no one 2:49:49.680 --> 2:49:52.600 doing anything, carrying around a bunch of really heavy ship 2:49:52.760 --> 2:49:56.920 and nothing happening, but deterring those from harming others. In 2:49:57.000 --> 2:49:59.680 the absolute worst case, it means you have to actually 2:49:59.800 --> 2:50:03.360 do something that can get messy pretty quickly. I want 2:50:03.360 --> 2:50:05.040 to circle back to a couple of things. Actually, I 2:50:05.040 --> 2:50:07.039 do have one one quick follow up question for you 2:50:07.080 --> 2:50:09.400 before we move on to the next people. Ray, When 2:50:09.520 --> 2:50:12.760 you say like carrying heavy things and whatnot, I'm wondering, 2:50:12.760 --> 2:50:15.800 what do you think? I'm interested in you, and I'll 2:50:15.800 --> 2:50:17.840 probably ask other people to follow up when it when 2:50:17.840 --> 2:50:20.320 it comes to carrying and bringing a firearm to either 2:50:20.480 --> 2:50:24.200 a protest situation some other community self defense situation, what 2:50:24.320 --> 2:50:26.440 it is going through your head when you determine what 2:50:26.640 --> 2:50:29.120 to bring? Because I've seen people carry a variety of 2:50:29.160 --> 2:50:32.040 different guns from like shotguns and in one case is 2:50:32.040 --> 2:50:35.800 of mos and negat to a r S or handguns. Um, 2:50:35.840 --> 2:50:38.840 what do you think is kind of the the logic 2:50:38.879 --> 2:50:40.520 train I guess that you would take, Like, what is 2:50:40.520 --> 2:50:45.160 the appropriate tool to bring like in this situation? So 2:50:45.600 --> 2:50:48.760 that depends entirely on what the anticipated threat is and 2:50:48.800 --> 2:50:52.120 how one plans to mitigate the anticipated threat. There's no 2:50:52.760 --> 2:50:57.160 correct answer for that. Sometimes the answer to mitigate lethal 2:50:57.280 --> 2:51:00.000 or regious bodily harm is not a firearm at all. Indeed, 2:51:00.040 --> 2:51:03.760 firearms are applicable in an extraordinarily narrow range of scenarios, 2:51:04.080 --> 2:51:08.039 but those range of scenarios are catastrophic and need extreme 2:51:08.040 --> 2:51:12.840 measures to be mitigated. So it depends on what If 2:51:12.840 --> 2:51:15.680 you are considering bringing firearm, what is the firearm good 2:51:15.680 --> 2:51:17.879 at And then you get into the minutia of what 2:51:18.000 --> 2:51:20.640 firearm is good for what thing, which depends on your 2:51:20.720 --> 2:51:24.039 legal context and particular threat. But I think one has 2:51:24.080 --> 2:51:26.080 to start with the question is is the thing I'm 2:51:26.120 --> 2:51:29.240 bringing able to mitigate the type of harm I might 2:51:29.280 --> 2:51:32.320 see happen to my community, And to get a little 2:51:32.320 --> 2:51:36.040 bit less vague, there are people who think that bringing 2:51:36.040 --> 2:51:37.720 a shotgun is a good way to stop a car 2:51:37.840 --> 2:51:42.000 speeding into a crowd when it clearly isn't right. So 2:51:42.120 --> 2:51:44.200 one has to make sure that the tool, whatever they 2:51:44.240 --> 2:51:47.720 have is you is appropriate for the task at hand 2:51:48.160 --> 2:51:51.800 and the threat you anticipate. That was great, Thank you, 2:51:51.879 --> 2:51:54.039 ray um Katie, you want to you want to give 2:51:54.080 --> 2:51:56.920 us your answer next. I agree with everything that Race said, 2:51:57.200 --> 2:52:00.800 and the only addition that I'd make is that, um, 2:52:00.920 --> 2:52:04.440 it's specifically in our in our cases generally doesn't mean 2:52:05.600 --> 2:52:11.760 standing between protesters and police, but more guiding protesters, you know, 2:52:11.800 --> 2:52:18.960 our activists or participants away from potential situations of harm. 2:52:19.000 --> 2:52:21.600 It's like we can't stand in front of police and 2:52:21.800 --> 2:52:24.959 stop cops from doing their job like that just gets 2:52:24.959 --> 2:52:29.040 you arrested and uh or worse or worse, and that's 2:52:29.080 --> 2:52:32.959 not what we're here for. So yeah, that's all I 2:52:32.959 --> 2:52:35.680 wanted to, could you, because I have chatted with a 2:52:35.680 --> 2:52:38.400 couple of your number about this, about um, kind of 2:52:38.440 --> 2:52:41.920 the role that that an armed contingent at a protest 2:52:41.959 --> 2:52:45.240 can play in kind of allowing an avenue of retreat, 2:52:45.640 --> 2:52:50.480 you know, especially during confrontations with non state actors. UM, 2:52:50.840 --> 2:52:53.920 I'm interested in kind of what you um, you know 2:52:54.000 --> 2:52:57.119 you're not You're not to kind of as you did, 2:52:57.160 --> 2:52:59.440 kind of kind of clarify this conception. You don't see 2:52:59.440 --> 2:53:01.800 your role as ending in front of the protesters between 2:53:01.840 --> 2:53:04.000 them and the cops and like presenting a threat to 2:53:04.040 --> 2:53:07.040 the cops. What is the utility and kind of an 2:53:07.040 --> 2:53:09.880 act of protest situation that you've seen of of of 2:53:09.920 --> 2:53:14.400 what y'all do. So that's a good question. And UM, 2:53:14.440 --> 2:53:18.600 if we're doing our job well, then most people think 2:53:18.600 --> 2:53:20.680 we don't do anything at all. UM. A lot of 2:53:20.680 --> 2:53:25.640 what we do is we're watching external potential threats who 2:53:25.760 --> 2:53:27.840 might try to come in. The most common factor these 2:53:27.920 --> 2:53:31.640 days is a car UM, but generally we're looking for 2:53:31.640 --> 2:53:34.760 folks that might cause trouble and finding ensuring that we're 2:53:34.760 --> 2:53:36.800 not putting ourselves in a position where we're gonna get 2:53:36.840 --> 2:53:41.200 cornered or trapped, and and really you know, just trying 2:53:41.200 --> 2:53:44.400 to help facilitate and work with the facilitators and organizers 2:53:45.240 --> 2:53:48.480 to keep things, you know, progressing in a safe way. 2:53:48.600 --> 2:53:52.640 So as far as what we're protecting against threat wise, 2:53:52.800 --> 2:53:55.879 that that ranges from everything from like angry people who 2:53:55.879 --> 2:53:58.119 are just angry and trying to go home and getting 2:53:58.120 --> 2:54:01.359 blocked by a protest, to people who are who are 2:54:01.840 --> 2:54:05.840 actively looking to do harm to a movement that happens 2:54:05.879 --> 2:54:10.039 to be involved in the protests, or you know, maybe 2:54:10.040 --> 2:54:13.440 it's something as as as specific as a person who's 2:54:13.480 --> 2:54:19.280 looking to specifically do harm to UH organizers. So most 2:54:19.280 --> 2:54:22.440 of the time it's we're focused outward and and just 2:54:22.560 --> 2:54:25.000 making sure that our exits are are covered and that 2:54:25.080 --> 2:54:31.400 we have ways to get people away from potential bad situations. Um, 2:54:31.560 --> 2:54:34.240 that was great, Thank you, Katie Shannon, you want to 2:54:34.240 --> 2:54:38.480 give your answer, it absolutely thanks. I would add there's 2:54:38.560 --> 2:54:42.080 a really critical element to community defense that begins and 2:54:42.240 --> 2:54:45.400 ends with the word community. Obviously, there's a big difference 2:54:45.440 --> 2:54:49.760 between proclaiming yourself security and showing up someplace and being 2:54:49.840 --> 2:54:55.160 there as an intentional community support where the community plays 2:54:55.160 --> 2:54:58.400 a role in you being there and also has some 2:54:58.520 --> 2:55:02.000 influence on that question what are you carrying and what 2:55:02.200 --> 2:55:04.840 is the response? I think it's just really important that 2:55:06.560 --> 2:55:11.199 you keep the community aspect at the forefront, and that's 2:55:11.440 --> 2:55:14.760 a huge part of our collective work is making sure 2:55:14.840 --> 2:55:23.039 that when we're providing community defense, we're aligning ourselves with 2:55:24.560 --> 2:55:27.520 the desires of the community group that has asked us 2:55:27.560 --> 2:55:31.360 to be there, also filtering it through our judgment as 2:55:31.400 --> 2:55:35.080 to what's safe and appropriate under the circumstances, using some 2:55:35.160 --> 2:55:38.280 of those filters that Ray mentioned when they were answering 2:55:41.080 --> 2:55:46.440 and what do you see as like like, this is 2:55:46.480 --> 2:55:49.240 something that I kind of gets to both what what 2:55:49.360 --> 2:55:50.840 is an issue with me? And kind of the folks 2:55:50.840 --> 2:55:53.360 who declare themselves a security, which is that they're often 2:55:53.440 --> 2:55:56.199 kind of separating themselves from the rest of the movement, 2:55:56.640 --> 2:55:58.800 specifically in a cop like way to say like, well, 2:55:58.800 --> 2:56:00.640 it's my job to keep you ad even though that 2:56:00.720 --> 2:56:03.200 means or it's my job to keep things order leaven 2:56:03.240 --> 2:56:06.039 if that means attacking some other people at this protest. 2:56:06.560 --> 2:56:09.760 One of the things that Scott Crowe in is uh 2:56:09.800 --> 2:56:12.240 in Setting Sights, which is a really good book on 2:56:12.280 --> 2:56:17.480 community self defense, does is set out that, um, a 2:56:17.560 --> 2:56:20.240 key aspect of community self defense, as you said, is 2:56:20.240 --> 2:56:23.600 that you're like a member of the community. And I think, 2:56:23.600 --> 2:56:27.119 I guess the question I have is because guns are 2:56:27.240 --> 2:56:29.680 what they are and have the kind of cultural weight 2:56:29.760 --> 2:56:33.959 that they have, it's you people are always people who 2:56:34.160 --> 2:56:37.879 accept being armed as an aspect of their personality are 2:56:37.920 --> 2:56:41.440 always going to be kind of fighting having that dominate 2:56:41.480 --> 2:56:46.520 their personality. And it wouldn't It's clearly something that a 2:56:46.560 --> 2:56:48.879 lot of people have an issue with. The thing that 2:56:49.000 --> 2:56:51.800 is important is to be a member of the community 2:56:51.840 --> 2:56:55.400 who happens to be armed, as opposed to an armed 2:56:55.480 --> 2:56:59.200 activist whose whose role is being armed. Right, Like I 2:56:59.440 --> 2:57:01.840 I mean, do you agree with what I'm saying? Are 2:57:01.879 --> 2:57:03.600 kind of like I'm wondering how you think about it, 2:57:03.600 --> 2:57:05.360 because this is something that I'm kind of going around 2:57:05.360 --> 2:57:08.199 in my head about as well, because it's it's it's 2:57:08.200 --> 2:57:10.400 clearly where a lot of the problems happen, right that 2:57:10.480 --> 2:57:13.720 the gun becomes central to the identity of the people 2:57:13.720 --> 2:57:16.120 who bring it, which is something that happens to the 2:57:16.160 --> 2:57:21.320 cops yes, and also the mentality of separating yourself from 2:57:21.320 --> 2:57:26.959 the community and not being part of the purpose of 2:57:27.000 --> 2:57:31.680 being there. And so I'll defer to my my comrades 2:57:31.720 --> 2:57:33.280 here to go a little bit further with it, but 2:57:33.320 --> 2:57:37.400 I would just say that there's a significant difference between 2:57:38.320 --> 2:57:42.920 armed community defense and having an intentional presence of armed 2:57:42.920 --> 2:57:49.320 community defense at an event or protest and being a 2:57:49.400 --> 2:57:51.800 person who shows up with a gun. Those are two 2:57:51.840 --> 2:57:56.000 really different things, and so I think that's the that's 2:57:56.160 --> 2:58:01.560 one of the benefits of being part of an organization 2:58:01.720 --> 2:58:11.879 that does this collectively, with accountability, with training, with a 2:58:12.040 --> 2:58:16.359 known role in the community, so that there is um 2:58:16.560 --> 2:58:19.119 consistency among what we do and why we do it, 2:58:19.440 --> 2:58:25.160 and a history of folks understanding that if we're present somewhere, 2:58:25.160 --> 2:58:28.160 it's because we've been asked to be there, and that 2:58:28.320 --> 2:58:33.000 what we're doing there is aligned with and approved of 2:58:33.080 --> 2:58:36.840 by the people who are organizing the event. And then 2:58:37.120 --> 2:58:39.480 I'll let somebody else who's more eloquent than I am 2:58:40.120 --> 2:58:43.920 uh answered that further if they feel like they can. Yeah, 2:58:43.959 --> 2:58:46.840 I think Nova is up now. If you wanted to 2:58:46.879 --> 2:58:49.400 give your answer and kind of also comment on what 2:58:49.520 --> 2:58:51.760 we've been chatting about what Channon and I were just 2:58:51.840 --> 2:58:55.280 chatting about Nova. Hi, thank you so much. UM. I 2:58:55.320 --> 2:58:58.920 would say that folks like Ray and Katie and of 2:58:58.959 --> 2:59:01.880 course Shannon really put it very systemictly, very well together 2:59:02.120 --> 2:59:03.800 and answered a lot of the things that I was 2:59:03.800 --> 2:59:06.039 gonna already provided things that I was going to add 2:59:06.080 --> 2:59:10.760 to it. But um, the specifically the part about the 2:59:10.800 --> 2:59:16.200 gun becoming the driving factor in somebody's presence at the protest, 2:59:16.280 --> 2:59:19.959 or the gun being a part of the personality of 2:59:20.000 --> 2:59:23.560 somebody who is going to appoint themselves as a guardian 2:59:23.600 --> 2:59:26.720 towards a bunch of people, I would I would say 2:59:26.760 --> 2:59:31.840 that with any responsible community community defense role within a 2:59:31.879 --> 2:59:36.200 protest context, that the act of being a body in 2:59:36.200 --> 2:59:40.959 between a threat and your community has to come first, 2:59:41.080 --> 2:59:47.080 and that the that the firearm has to be secondary. Um. Uh. 2:59:47.120 --> 2:59:50.640 There there was an incident on the night of protest 2:59:50.680 --> 2:59:54.280 where uh many of us were at risk of being 2:59:54.360 --> 2:59:59.160 harmed by a vehicle attack, and uh, in retrospect, a 2:59:59.200 --> 3:00:02.840 firearm would not have mitigated that threat terribly well. But 3:00:03.040 --> 3:00:07.640 the idea of being in between a threat such as 3:00:07.680 --> 3:00:11.520 that and somebody else who is possibly more vulnerable than 3:00:11.600 --> 3:00:15.320 you are bore a lot more of a significance on that. 3:00:15.440 --> 3:00:19.640 So the firearm being there to respond to a threat 3:00:19.680 --> 3:00:23.320 and perhaps mitigate an active, ongoing deadly threat to your 3:00:23.320 --> 3:00:26.520 community is one thing, But I think the primary thing 3:00:26.600 --> 3:00:30.280 is going to be just putting yourself in harm's way 3:00:30.760 --> 3:00:34.960 so that you can spare that responsibility from somebody possibly 3:00:34.959 --> 3:00:37.480 more vulnerable than you. If that makes sense, that should 3:00:37.480 --> 3:00:41.280 be the primary responsibility. And um, how do you avoid 3:00:42.280 --> 3:00:46.879 letting that turn people doing that into feeling like a 3:00:47.000 --> 3:00:52.400 separate and even elevated chunk of the community. Because that again, 3:00:52.440 --> 3:00:54.640 that's what happens with police. You know, this idea that 3:00:54.680 --> 3:00:56.360 it starts as like, well, we're here to serve and 3:00:56.400 --> 3:01:01.519 protect um, and that that, through of variety of toxic alchemies, 3:01:01.560 --> 3:01:04.800 turns into this idea of the thin blue line. What 3:01:04.959 --> 3:01:07.120 is the way you push back on that? How do 3:01:07.160 --> 3:01:10.920 you actually stop it from going from I'm someone who 3:01:11.040 --> 3:01:13.800 is accepting personal responsibility for the well being of the 3:01:13.840 --> 3:01:16.720 people around me, UM and putting my body in between 3:01:16.760 --> 3:01:20.680 them on harm's way if necessary, uh, to I it's 3:01:20.720 --> 3:01:23.320 my job to protect people, to it's my job to 3:01:23.879 --> 3:01:26.280 you know, from turning that into kind of this idea 3:01:26.360 --> 3:01:29.920 of I think stewardship in some ways that like some 3:01:29.959 --> 3:01:33.800 people in law enforcement have where like you're there, they 3:01:33.879 --> 3:01:35.800 they get to tell you what to do because that's 3:01:35.800 --> 3:01:38.240 their responsibility to keep you safe. Like, how do you 3:01:38.680 --> 3:01:41.680 how do you stop that attitude from evolving? Because I've 3:01:41.760 --> 3:01:45.680 seen it happen to people fairly quickly when they put 3:01:45.720 --> 3:01:48.840 themselves in some of these situations sometimes and it's certainly 3:01:48.840 --> 3:01:52.000 not like most people, but it is. It doesn't take 3:01:52.800 --> 3:01:57.160 a long time for somebody to, like especially if they're vulnerable, 3:01:57.360 --> 3:01:59.520 to get in that position. So how do you, especially 3:01:59.600 --> 3:02:02.280 if you're approaching it from an organizational standpoint, right, you're 3:02:02.280 --> 3:02:06.320 an organization made up of people who come to do this, 3:02:06.440 --> 3:02:08.480 how do you fight back against that? Like? What is 3:02:08.520 --> 3:02:14.720 the active kind of counter programming? If you will? I'd 3:02:14.760 --> 3:02:18.840 say I don't have an easy answer for that question, 3:02:19.280 --> 3:02:21.400 to be completely honest with you, but I say that 3:02:21.440 --> 3:02:24.800 the closest thing, uh to an answer to that would 3:02:24.840 --> 3:02:30.200 be that and almost you know, monastic devotion to the 3:02:30.360 --> 3:02:34.560 task that was acts asked of you by the group 3:02:34.600 --> 3:02:38.480 that asked you there. Um So if somebody asked us 3:02:38.520 --> 3:02:41.160 to be a part of a march and to simply 3:02:41.200 --> 3:02:45.360 look outward for external threats and to be willing to 3:02:45.400 --> 3:02:47.840 respond to those threats of need, be again putting our 3:02:47.879 --> 3:02:50.959 bodies in harm's way, but also be willing to respond 3:02:51.000 --> 3:02:56.200 to lethal force and kind should the worst case scenario arise. UM. 3:02:57.280 --> 3:03:01.720 I'd say that the ult accountability rest with the people 3:03:01.760 --> 3:03:06.960 who asked you to be there. Uh. And there's no 3:03:07.080 --> 3:03:10.480 easy answer as to what that mechanism of accountability looks like. 3:03:11.520 --> 3:03:14.920 But you know, in several layers, that would start with 3:03:15.520 --> 3:03:18.560 your teammates, the people who are part of your organization 3:03:18.600 --> 3:03:21.240 that asked you to be that is asked to be there. 3:03:21.280 --> 3:03:25.960 So other members of of j B g C are 3:03:26.000 --> 3:03:29.800 you know, definitely going to try and keep each other accountable. 3:03:30.400 --> 3:03:35.480 But it's also the larger, the the the the the 3:03:35.560 --> 3:03:37.920 larger contingent of the action that you're a part of. 3:03:38.480 --> 3:03:42.840 UH to be ultimately willing to back down from whatever 3:03:42.920 --> 3:03:47.560 you're doing if a concern is voiced by that community. 3:03:47.680 --> 3:03:53.959 And I wish I had a better way to word that, uh, 3:03:53.959 --> 3:03:59.800 But just the the the the constant vigilance within oneself 3:03:59.840 --> 3:04:03.560 against overstepping the boundaries that were clearly set by people 3:04:03.600 --> 3:04:07.560 who invited you into a space. UM, that's really the 3:04:07.600 --> 3:04:09.640 best answer I can get for that at the moment 3:04:09.959 --> 3:04:13.680 without further percolating. Well, I mean, yeah, for for one thing, 3:04:13.840 --> 3:04:16.560 I think this is the reason we're having this conversation. 3:04:16.760 --> 3:04:18.680 And I'm getting ahead of us a little as because 3:04:19.480 --> 3:04:22.200 this is still very much a developing thing on the 3:04:22.320 --> 3:04:25.160 left and and I don't think anybody has all the 3:04:25.200 --> 3:04:28.320 answers on how to do it well, although I think 3:04:28.360 --> 3:04:32.840 an increasing number of folks except the necessity. UM. So 3:04:33.040 --> 3:04:35.359 I think that's part of the reason for the conversation. 3:04:35.480 --> 3:04:38.320 Is this like continuing exploration of how to actually do 3:04:38.360 --> 3:04:41.240 this responsibly. UM. But I do think you hit on 3:04:41.320 --> 3:04:46.200 something important there when you talked about the that you're 3:04:46.240 --> 3:04:49.920 there at the invitation of a community as opposed to 3:04:50.600 --> 3:04:54.000 you are there too to police or to maintain order. 3:04:54.160 --> 3:04:57.200 Like the idea of approaching it as if you were 3:04:57.240 --> 3:05:00.760 to guess strikes me as a really good idea, um, 3:05:01.280 --> 3:05:06.760 in order to keep yourself on a certain behavioral um standpoint, 3:05:06.800 --> 3:05:09.640 Like I'm I'm I'm here at the request of this 3:05:09.680 --> 3:05:12.520 community as their guest, as opposed to I am here 3:05:12.560 --> 3:05:17.880 to protect this community. You know, absolutely, that's a that's 3:05:17.879 --> 3:05:20.520 a that's a perfect way to summarize what I was 3:05:20.520 --> 3:05:23.600 trying to go for with that one. I think that 3:05:23.680 --> 3:05:28.200 the ultimately to be averse to being put in a 3:05:28.200 --> 3:05:31.959 position of power or authority is the best way to 3:05:32.080 --> 3:05:37.080 check against that UM and to simply be a servant 3:05:37.440 --> 3:05:40.760 to the community. That is again inviting you into that 3:05:40.879 --> 3:05:47.520 space and putting yourself in a m servile is not 3:05:47.600 --> 3:05:50.000 the right word. I'm looking for a different word for that, 3:05:50.120 --> 3:05:55.680 but a a position of service, a true position like 3:05:55.680 --> 3:06:00.840 like yes, what what what community and should be is 3:06:00.920 --> 3:06:04.720 ultimately a service and a burden rather than a reward 3:06:05.000 --> 3:06:12.040 of responsibility and power over your fellow community members. Okay, yeah, great, 3:06:12.280 --> 3:06:15.320 I think next was Ray again, Um, you had something 3:06:15.360 --> 3:06:18.920 to say there. Yeah, I'll just finish that thought in 3:06:18.959 --> 3:06:21.280 my notes under the section of what happens when things 3:06:21.320 --> 3:06:23.920 go right. I think one thing that can go right 3:06:24.200 --> 3:06:29.119 is normalizing that firearms are just a thing that can 3:06:29.160 --> 3:06:31.760 be around and they don't have to be your entire 3:06:31.800 --> 3:06:36.080 as personality, nor do they have to be a differentiating factor. Indeed, 3:06:36.120 --> 3:06:38.560 I think one of the successes they are not many, 3:06:38.640 --> 3:06:43.320 but of community defense in the chop was normalizing the 3:06:43.360 --> 3:06:45.560 idea that people can have firearms and they're not an 3:06:45.600 --> 3:06:49.760 inherent threat UM thinking of people who are armed often 3:06:49.800 --> 3:06:52.600 and we're pointed out routinely, and I was like, Nah, 3:06:52.680 --> 3:06:55.760 he's still he's He's a cool dude, you know, just 3:06:55.879 --> 3:06:59.440 a guy just like I think. It's like, you know, 3:06:59.480 --> 3:07:01.000 do you really think the black guy is going to 3:07:01.040 --> 3:07:03.800 shoot up the top? I don't know that. He's totally fine. 3:07:03.800 --> 3:07:06.720 I know him. His jokes are great. Um. Again, an 3:07:06.720 --> 3:07:10.200 overhearing of these kind of conversations, it helps, you know, 3:07:10.280 --> 3:07:12.800 firearms become like part of the tapestry of life, not 3:07:12.879 --> 3:07:16.400 this differentiating factor, not a beauty item, not something to 3:07:16.440 --> 3:07:18.879 write your personality around. It's just like they're there and 3:07:19.000 --> 3:07:21.240 that they can be good, bad, right, wrong, or in 3:07:21.320 --> 3:07:24.600 different And I think that normalizing effect is one of 3:07:24.600 --> 3:07:27.320 the successes community defense can have. And I'm happy to 3:07:27.320 --> 3:07:29.960 talk about other things that community defense can normalize, but 3:07:29.959 --> 3:07:32.840 I wanted to emphasize the you just have a firearm. 3:07:33.120 --> 3:07:34.920 You're not talking about it, you're not touching it, you're 3:07:34.920 --> 3:07:37.080 not thinking about it. You know people have that. It's 3:07:37.080 --> 3:07:39.720 just around and it became pretty chill, and there is 3:07:39.800 --> 3:07:43.160 kind of the chop. Specifically, there's an area where firearms 3:07:43.200 --> 3:07:45.920 just kind of were around and nothing happened really and 3:07:47.520 --> 3:07:52.280 that was kind of wonderful in my mind. So from 3:07:52.280 --> 3:07:57.720 my experience with with the club, Uh, it's basically like 3:07:58.200 --> 3:08:00.600 even though we are the John Brown Gun Club, the 3:08:00.680 --> 3:08:06.760 guns are like the last thing that we even consider. Like, Uh, 3:08:06.879 --> 3:08:09.240 it would technically if we were to actually rename the club, 3:08:09.240 --> 3:08:12.240 it would be the John Brown de Escalation Club. Um, 3:08:12.280 --> 3:08:16.480 we would like most of the time any um, any 3:08:16.560 --> 3:08:18.720 anything that's gone on. Even when I did visit the 3:08:18.760 --> 3:08:21.160 Chop and there was some weird stuff going on, like 3:08:21.720 --> 3:08:27.720 Brother Matthew being Brother Matthew, people were um using their 3:08:27.760 --> 3:08:32.280 skills to um to d escalate situation, to calm the 3:08:32.400 --> 3:08:35.560 calm out, calm down individuals, to make sure that that 3:08:35.800 --> 3:08:41.360 whatever hostility they have would be abated through just verbal 3:08:41.520 --> 3:08:45.160 verbal communications. Talk about that in a little more to 3:08:45.240 --> 3:08:46.600 tail because I don't know who I mean, I was 3:08:46.640 --> 3:08:48.480 at the Chazz briefly, but I don't know who Brother 3:08:48.520 --> 3:08:50.680 Matthew was or like what incident you're talking about. Something 3:08:52.080 --> 3:08:56.160 is a guy who shows up up here all around 3:08:56.160 --> 3:08:59.120 the Seattle area and also I think he's even up 3:08:59.160 --> 3:09:03.200 in Portland as well. Um, preacher guy gets in everybody's faces, 3:09:03.920 --> 3:09:08.920 usually not liked by everybody, super afraid of snakes, thanks Jerry. Um. 3:09:08.959 --> 3:09:13.320 But yeah, he like like he's he's a person who 3:09:13.400 --> 3:09:17.920 drives off a confrontation and uses the Bible as as 3:09:17.959 --> 3:09:23.480 his mode of of operation. But Um, I remember distinctly 3:09:23.560 --> 3:09:27.480 at at the chop Um he was getting it, getting 3:09:27.520 --> 3:09:32.199 into it with people. But everybody who was around tried 3:09:32.240 --> 3:09:34.920 to talk him down. They tried to chill make him 3:09:34.959 --> 3:09:39.439 chill out, even though he was continually screaming for attention 3:09:39.600 --> 3:09:45.800 and just being weird. But um, but in the end, 3:09:45.920 --> 3:09:49.680 UM like that's just like that happens more often with 3:09:50.360 --> 3:09:55.920 protests situations or marked situations or direct action situations where 3:09:56.080 --> 3:09:59.800 we're asked to be a part of it by the organizers. 3:10:00.040 --> 3:10:04.080 And and as um Ray had mentioned and Nova had mentioned, um, 3:10:04.160 --> 3:10:08.640 we like we're asked to be there and we're not 3:10:08.680 --> 3:10:10.560 just asking and then we suddenly show up, like we 3:10:10.760 --> 3:10:14.560 get involved with the people who are organizing, any of 3:10:14.600 --> 3:10:17.959 the partners that they that they of, that they get 3:10:18.240 --> 3:10:21.680 that they bring into it. We try to learn as 3:10:21.800 --> 3:10:26.279 much about what's going on with them, who are the threats, Where, 3:10:26.280 --> 3:10:29.200 where the event is, how the event is um going 3:10:29.240 --> 3:10:31.640 to be thought of? We ask a lot of questions 3:10:31.680 --> 3:10:34.200 about it, Like we plan and plan and plan and 3:10:34.240 --> 3:10:37.600 plan to make sure that everything is super safe or 3:10:37.600 --> 3:10:41.680 as safe as possible based on all known variables and UH, 3:10:41.720 --> 3:10:43.680 and then the stuff that's unknown, we do our best 3:10:43.720 --> 3:10:47.640 to mitigate that somehow. Yes we are armed, but that's 3:10:47.680 --> 3:10:50.200 like the last thing that we ever even think of, 3:10:50.280 --> 3:10:53.720 and that's even in our planning. Like we say, flat out, 3:10:54.440 --> 3:10:58.080 de escalate first. Um, if things start to ratch it up, 3:10:58.520 --> 3:11:02.080 respond in kind. So like if someone you know, like 3:11:02.200 --> 3:11:05.080 tries to like I don't know, like starts to fistfight, 3:11:05.240 --> 3:11:08.720 We're not going to pull out a gun on someone 3:11:08.720 --> 3:11:12.520 who wants to box somebody on the street. We're going 3:11:12.600 --> 3:11:18.039 to do our best to stop So stop them through 3:11:18.120 --> 3:11:21.480 other means, like whether if it's just to block a 3:11:21.520 --> 3:11:25.160 punch or whatever. But the first things and foremost is 3:11:25.400 --> 3:11:29.960 de escalation. Calm, calm that person down and tell them 3:11:29.959 --> 3:11:33.359 to go away or just to chill out or whatever 3:11:33.480 --> 3:11:37.440 the whatever is necessary. I mean de escalation. All of 3:11:37.480 --> 3:11:40.360 the best community self defense that I've personally watched has 3:11:40.400 --> 3:11:44.600 been de escalation. Um, you know, they're they're not the 3:11:44.640 --> 3:11:47.440 only situations I've seen. I've seen force used a couple 3:11:47.480 --> 3:11:50.720 of times in situations that were necessary but by far, 3:11:50.920 --> 3:11:56.119 de escalation is the thing I've seen, um actually protect 3:11:56.200 --> 3:12:00.200 people in dicey situations the most um and generally that 3:12:00.200 --> 3:12:02.880 that's going to be the case. Yeah, I know for myself, 3:12:03.320 --> 3:12:07.240 Like my attitude is we all go home. Everybody who 3:12:07.240 --> 3:12:11.800 shows up there goes home, not to the hospital, not 3:12:11.920 --> 3:12:15.800 to jail, or not to the morgue. We all go home. Yeah, 3:12:15.920 --> 3:12:18.160 I think that's definitely seems like the best way to 3:12:18.200 --> 3:12:22.360 look at it. So into the specific question of how 3:12:22.360 --> 3:12:26.039 not to become a cop in this position and become 3:12:26.040 --> 3:12:29.640 the gun the only way I've been able to do 3:12:29.720 --> 3:12:33.959 anything in that regard has been to not have that 3:12:34.000 --> 3:12:37.480 be my primary thing that I fulfilled. I'm part of 3:12:37.480 --> 3:12:40.720 a community and I'm a mechanical person this community. I 3:12:41.160 --> 3:12:45.720 try to have my mission be not that other skill 3:12:45.760 --> 3:12:48.480 set or that other access to being of an aid 3:12:49.120 --> 3:12:54.360 to a community, be my actual purpose in the community. 3:12:54.800 --> 3:13:02.040 If that makes any sense. M Yeah, that makes complete sense. Um, 3:13:02.120 --> 3:13:05.120 And yeah, I think is the healthiest way to to 3:13:05.200 --> 3:13:08.320 deal with it. So something I've been wondering about as 3:13:08.400 --> 3:13:13.160 so I'm like not armed at all, So I guess 3:13:13.160 --> 3:13:15.240 I'm on like the other the other side of defence 3:13:15.360 --> 3:13:18.640 of the sort of community self defense think that people 3:13:18.640 --> 3:13:20.720 show up to protests, um. And so something I was 3:13:20.760 --> 3:13:24.160 wondering about is is the relationship between this stuff and 3:13:25.120 --> 3:13:27.320 you know, between the sort of cop mentality development and 3:13:27.480 --> 3:13:31.840 the difficulty of sort of integrating to the community of 3:13:33.360 --> 3:13:37.879 having organizations that are basically independent security groups and not 3:13:38.160 --> 3:13:42.520 for example, like taking like I don't know, take like 3:13:42.560 --> 3:13:45.280 an historical example, like there was a thing in China 3:13:45.360 --> 3:13:47.440 you'd see a lot in in like the nine hundreds, 3:13:47.480 --> 3:13:50.320 where you know, you'd have armed pickets, right, and so 3:13:50.480 --> 3:13:52.320 you you you have an armed force there, but the 3:13:52.400 --> 3:13:54.360 armed force is like you know, this is this is 3:13:54.400 --> 3:13:56.440 like a branch of the union, right, And that's that's 3:13:56.480 --> 3:13:59.040 how they sort of like like that that was their 3:13:59.080 --> 3:14:01.440 sort of solution to how do you stop cops syndrome? 3:14:01.600 --> 3:14:04.560 Is that you know they're they're they're basically like a 3:14:05.040 --> 3:14:11.920 part of another community organization. And so I'm curious what 3:14:12.040 --> 3:14:15.560 you all think about what the sort of I guess 3:14:15.560 --> 3:14:19.840 that the strengths and weaknesses of being an independent or 3:14:20.120 --> 3:14:27.000 having having sort of independent security organizations versus having I 3:14:27.000 --> 3:14:30.480 guess subsections of other organizations that are armed. Yeah, I 3:14:30.520 --> 3:14:33.119 feel like I can offer a unique perspective here as 3:14:33.160 --> 3:14:37.160 someone who's been privy to multiple angles of this, including 3:14:37.680 --> 3:14:41.760 separate organizations, ones integrated with others, and ones that are 3:14:41.800 --> 3:14:45.400 sort of just parts of the community, I don't think 3:14:45.440 --> 3:14:49.920 there's any like inherent, sort of best answer here. I 3:14:49.959 --> 3:14:53.640 do think being part of a separate organization makes it 3:14:53.680 --> 3:14:58.320 harder to be in the community versus of the community, 3:14:58.480 --> 3:15:01.280 meaning you came from the community, now you're sort of 3:15:01.360 --> 3:15:05.959 kind of separate but not really UM Like JB in particular, 3:15:06.080 --> 3:15:08.680 has a perpetual problem with people saying, oh, you know, 3:15:09.760 --> 3:15:12.440 John Brown will do X, and this is something that 3:15:12.520 --> 3:15:16.160 has been discussed, and often this is to people's immense fire. 3:15:16.240 --> 3:15:17.920 I don't want to speak for everyone here, but it 3:15:17.959 --> 3:15:20.760 does seem to be that so seldom does one wish 3:15:20.800 --> 3:15:24.200 to be said, oh hello. It's kind of like saying, oh, 3:15:24.240 --> 3:15:26.320 the Union will solve this, and it's like, turns out 3:15:26.360 --> 3:15:30.080 you're the Union buddy, um right, and never referred to 3:15:30.120 --> 3:15:32.160 be union in the first person. So I do think 3:15:32.280 --> 3:15:35.240 being embedded into other groups, or being sort of this loose, 3:15:35.320 --> 3:15:39.160 diffuse group can make it easier to be part of 3:15:39.200 --> 3:15:43.400 the community because of the structural forces that make that um. 3:15:43.440 --> 3:15:47.080 It is easier to get there. A separate organization can 3:15:47.120 --> 3:15:52.640 help focus and codify certain procedures training, you know, make 3:15:52.680 --> 3:15:55.039 sure that people have some sort of unified goals and 3:15:55.160 --> 3:15:58.039 values at the expense of making it a bit harder 3:15:58.040 --> 3:16:01.959 to integrate into one's community. I think given the era 3:16:02.120 --> 3:16:05.560 we're in, I'm not surprised we see many many approaches 3:16:05.600 --> 3:16:09.560 to community defense with varying effectiveness at different times, including 3:16:09.879 --> 3:16:17.680 JBS perspective. Yeah, and um, I guess I'm interested as 3:16:17.720 --> 3:16:21.280 we are as we move on here, and like, one 3:16:21.280 --> 3:16:24.840 of the one of the questions I see is how 3:16:24.879 --> 3:16:28.640 do you the difficulty and kind of you don't want 3:16:28.640 --> 3:16:32.720 to have a situation where there's absolutely no where the 3:16:32.800 --> 3:16:35.560 community self defense contention is anyone who shows up with 3:16:35.600 --> 3:16:38.119 a gun, because then anyone can show up with a gun, 3:16:38.320 --> 3:16:40.640 and you as someone else who's showing up with a 3:16:40.680 --> 3:16:46.880 weapinar potentially like if that person, uh makes a bad decision, 3:16:46.959 --> 3:16:48.680 that's going to I mean, as it as it has 3:16:48.720 --> 3:16:52.040 in the past, that has significant repercussions on everybody else. 3:16:52.120 --> 3:16:55.320 And I that is one of the thorny or points 3:16:55.360 --> 3:16:58.880 because I do one of the things I see is valuable. 3:16:58.920 --> 3:17:02.680 Someone mentioned earlier, like the nice thing about it, just 3:17:02.760 --> 3:17:06.160 in not being firearms being normalized, not as a like 3:17:06.360 --> 3:17:08.720 gun culture thing, but as this is just a thing 3:17:09.440 --> 3:17:11.480 that is present in the community. And I saw that 3:17:11.520 --> 3:17:15.560 a lot in Rojabo, right that everybody was armed, or 3:17:15.600 --> 3:17:17.920 at least the significant chunk of the populace had access 3:17:17.959 --> 3:17:20.280 to arms, but nobody was showing off with them. They 3:17:20.280 --> 3:17:23.640 were not like anybody's like like piece of identity. They 3:17:23.640 --> 3:17:25.720 were just one of the tools like a like a 3:17:25.840 --> 3:17:28.320 like a spade or a shovel that were present in 3:17:28.360 --> 3:17:31.520 the community. Um okay, I think I've skipped over a 3:17:31.520 --> 3:17:34.360 couple of people. I wanted to give Thud a chance 3:17:34.360 --> 3:17:37.120 to talk. M that's actually very much should have in 3:17:37.160 --> 3:17:39.160 line with But the point I was going to make, 3:17:39.160 --> 3:17:43.400 which is for me, a huge part of community defense, 3:17:43.879 --> 3:17:48.560 is making sure that the aspect that is defending the 3:17:48.560 --> 3:17:52.520 community is not alienated from the community because it isn't 3:17:52.720 --> 3:17:56.400 concentrated in just a few people. Because I think one 3:17:56.440 --> 3:17:59.360 of the other things that we emphasize the lots with 3:17:59.440 --> 3:18:04.760 outside of direct protest actions is you try to teach 3:18:04.920 --> 3:18:09.640 people how to safely operate firearms, but also to give 3:18:09.760 --> 3:18:12.800 firearms the respect that they deserve. That firearms are not 3:18:12.879 --> 3:18:15.720 there so that you are badass. Firearms are not there 3:18:15.800 --> 3:18:19.119 because you know you're going to get into a gunfight. 3:18:19.160 --> 3:18:20.760 And it's well, the first rule, I mean, one of 3:18:20.760 --> 3:18:23.120 the one of the things that we stress sort of 3:18:23.120 --> 3:18:26.160 beyond the basic four rules of gun safety is the 3:18:26.160 --> 3:18:29.160 first rule of gunpipe is don't get into a gunpipe. 3:18:29.720 --> 3:18:32.959 That it's you know, you want to exhaust every possible 3:18:32.959 --> 3:18:38.400 option that you have. And when the community at large 3:18:39.320 --> 3:18:42.960 is engaged, and like Pray was saying, that it's sort 3:18:42.959 --> 3:18:45.240 of it becomes normalized that oh, we're not relying on 3:18:46.000 --> 3:18:49.480 these several people to keep us safe, but that in fact, 3:18:50.400 --> 3:18:53.360 as an entire collective, we are keeping us safe. And 3:18:54.000 --> 3:18:57.160 that gives recognition the fact that some people it's not 3:18:57.520 --> 3:19:00.600 it's not the right choice for them to areagain for 3:19:00.640 --> 3:19:04.640 one reason or another. And the at the same time, 3:19:04.760 --> 3:19:11.760 the power that is present in that particular tool is 3:19:11.879 --> 3:19:17.480 dispersed to the point where it doesn't you know, you 3:19:17.560 --> 3:19:23.920 don't have people getting self aggrandizing thoughts because of the 3:19:23.959 --> 3:19:27.000 fact that they're possessing firearps. And I think that's something 3:19:27.040 --> 3:19:30.680 that we, you know, work really hard to instill in 3:19:30.800 --> 3:19:33.000 evil in a variety of context, and I think is 3:19:33.040 --> 3:19:40.160 really critical to this question. So the question trying to summarize, UM, 3:19:40.320 --> 3:19:42.720 what the question was earlier, What the strengths are weaknesses 3:19:42.720 --> 3:19:47.480 of having an organized armed response are UM. One of 3:19:47.520 --> 3:19:51.400 the things that that I wanted to bring up is 3:19:51.440 --> 3:19:56.680 the historical context of armed response, specifically community armed response 3:19:56.720 --> 3:20:01.200 in Seattle. UM. I did some digging and owned in 3:20:01.320 --> 3:20:04.680 a book called History of Seattle from the Earliest Settlement 3:20:04.720 --> 3:20:09.560 to the Present Time, Volume two, which I started pouring 3:20:09.600 --> 3:20:13.520 through and found that there was in eighteen seventy four 3:20:14.040 --> 3:20:17.280 there was a group called the Seattle Amateur Rifle Association 3:20:17.920 --> 3:20:21.200 which least land for a range on current present day 3:20:21.200 --> 3:20:24.400 Capitol Hill, UM, like right where the train station is 3:20:24.920 --> 3:20:27.920 if you're familiar with the area, so like right where 3:20:27.920 --> 3:20:32.040 protests always happened these days. Later on, there's record record 3:20:32.080 --> 3:20:35.800 in eighteen seventy seven of the Seattle Rifle Team organizing 3:20:35.800 --> 3:20:40.440 and shooting contests. And then later on in six which 3:20:40.440 --> 3:20:43.800 is a number that probably rings a bell, the Chinese riots, 3:20:43.800 --> 3:20:47.760 as they called them at the time, happened, which was 3:20:48.280 --> 3:20:50.199 sort of the start of the labor movement where everyone 3:20:50.240 --> 3:20:52.959 decided that Chinese immigrants were the cause of all of 3:20:52.959 --> 3:20:56.160 our woes that the low wages being paid to Chinese 3:20:56.200 --> 3:21:00.480 immigrants were because of Chinese immigrants and not racism. So 3:21:00.520 --> 3:21:04.720 they decided to run every person who looked Chinese out 3:21:04.720 --> 3:21:08.080 of town. Literally. They referred to this as the Tacoma method, 3:21:09.920 --> 3:21:13.720 and that's what they did in Takemma exactly. It started 3:21:13.760 --> 3:21:19.480 there and uh, there was a February seven, this massive, 3:21:19.840 --> 3:21:23.199 angry racist mob tried to push all of the Chinese 3:21:23.200 --> 3:21:25.480 folks out of Seattle or anyone they thought might look 3:21:25.520 --> 3:21:29.200 like Chinese, and they tried to push them onto a 3:21:29.240 --> 3:21:31.760 steamboat but there weren't There wasn't enough room for them 3:21:31.800 --> 3:21:35.520 all there. Um, cops got involved, a bunch of other 3:21:35.560 --> 3:21:38.600 stuff happens. They decided no, give them time in court. 3:21:39.520 --> 3:21:45.760 But in the process uh of making this decision, you know, 3:21:45.760 --> 3:21:51.440 the racist got a mob together and we're basically just 3:21:51.480 --> 3:21:53.520 going to try and put a stop to this before 3:21:53.560 --> 3:21:58.400 the legal proceedings could to go forward. So they reached 3:21:58.400 --> 3:22:00.879 out to local allies and arms had the Home Guards, 3:22:00.920 --> 3:22:03.840 which I'm not exactly sure exactly what the Home Guards were, 3:22:03.840 --> 3:22:07.320 but I assume there's something related to National Guard later on, 3:22:08.120 --> 3:22:12.680 or maybe just an extension of military. But the Home 3:22:12.720 --> 3:22:16.960 Guards and the Seattle Rifles as well as the University Cadets, 3:22:17.120 --> 3:22:21.080 which I'm assuming are of course soldiers in training, and 3:22:21.520 --> 3:22:25.600 pulled them all out and made a community self defense 3:22:25.640 --> 3:22:27.800 group out of them. They didn't put a rifle line 3:22:27.840 --> 3:22:31.720 and held the mob back and enabled those folks to 3:22:31.800 --> 3:22:35.800 get you know, safely, to have their day in court, um, 3:22:35.840 --> 3:22:37.879 and then to protect them for a while afterward. They 3:22:37.879 --> 3:22:43.959 actually organized a sort of a watch because they didn't 3:22:44.000 --> 3:22:47.440 have enough police to to manage the mob. They used 3:22:47.480 --> 3:22:51.480 books from the Seattle Rifles and these other groups to uh, 3:22:51.680 --> 3:22:54.280 to sort of bolster the police forces and keep peace 3:22:54.280 --> 3:22:58.600 in the town. So the sort of thing that we 3:22:58.640 --> 3:23:01.400 do is a long stand in historical presence, but I 3:23:01.400 --> 3:23:02.920 think there's a lot of things you can look at 3:23:02.959 --> 3:23:06.039 the history of and sort of take lessons from so 3:23:07.120 --> 3:23:10.760 um as As very mentioned, a unified response is of 3:23:10.800 --> 3:23:14.200 course a huge benefit of having a huge strength of 3:23:14.240 --> 3:23:18.160 having an organized armed group. UH. And it's it's literally 3:23:18.200 --> 3:23:21.000 if someone reaches out and says we need help, help 3:23:21.080 --> 3:23:23.800 is available. Um. But there are a lot of weaknesses. 3:23:24.240 --> 3:23:29.000 Businesses and clubs can be held liable legally, and this 3:23:29.120 --> 3:23:31.400 is an endemic problem within gun law as it stands 3:23:31.440 --> 3:23:34.920 the laws are written such that they effectively there that 3:23:35.040 --> 3:23:37.920 it comes down to situational context to determine how a 3:23:37.920 --> 3:23:41.280 gun law should be enforced. And the law will never 3:23:41.320 --> 3:23:43.240 be on the side of a group trying to abolish 3:23:43.320 --> 3:23:46.760 parts of the law. So you have to be very 3:23:46.800 --> 3:23:51.680 careful about how you how especially an organized or formally 3:23:51.760 --> 3:23:55.960 organized armed group has to be very careful about how 3:23:56.040 --> 3:23:59.720 they put their their work in play with that. In 3:23:59.800 --> 3:24:05.000 my Yeah, that was great, and I was unaware, actually 3:24:05.040 --> 3:24:06.880 I was aware of the of the riots. I was 3:24:06.959 --> 3:24:10.080 unaware of that part of the history, which is fascinating, 3:24:10.240 --> 3:24:14.320 um and I think very important. Yeah, right, did you 3:24:14.400 --> 3:24:19.800 want to explain the threat onion? Yeah, the integrated threat onion. 3:24:19.959 --> 3:24:23.000 So this is kind of a a well known meme 3:24:23.200 --> 3:24:28.400 in certain circles slash actual thing, and it's designed to 3:24:28.879 --> 3:24:32.680 help you understand how to like mitigate threat and sorry, 3:24:32.720 --> 3:24:38.440 integrated survivability onion mitigate threats. Right, So the tel deer is, 3:24:39.160 --> 3:24:41.360 you know, do you want to try to preserve life 3:24:41.360 --> 3:24:43.480 by having body armor and hoping a bullet hits you 3:24:43.520 --> 3:24:45.520 in the body armor or do you want to preserve 3:24:45.560 --> 3:24:47.640 life by I don't know, not showing the funk up 3:24:47.640 --> 3:24:50.920 to something where you might get shot. And the idea 3:24:51.080 --> 3:24:53.640 is it's it's a meme because so often, you know, 3:24:53.720 --> 3:24:55.640 people are like, oh, they want to get in there 3:24:55.640 --> 3:24:58.119 and get and get engaged with conflict and be the hero. 3:24:58.320 --> 3:24:59.720 And the answer is, you know, you could just like 3:24:59.800 --> 3:25:01.520 not go there, right, and it would probably be a 3:25:01.560 --> 3:25:04.960 lot easier to do that, But there's some real weight 3:25:05.000 --> 3:25:08.960 to the survivability onion, which is like, there are many 3:25:09.000 --> 3:25:11.920 many ways to mitigate threats to yourself in your community, 3:25:12.000 --> 3:25:16.320 and very often the most boring and mundane answer is 3:25:16.840 --> 3:25:18.680 probably the one that's going to actually result in the 3:25:18.680 --> 3:25:22.160 biggest impact. And the heroic answer is probably the absolute 3:25:22.240 --> 3:25:25.720 worst answer and only what you rely on if everything 3:25:25.760 --> 3:25:30.000 else has gone to hell. So that's someone I think 3:25:30.040 --> 3:25:33.680 it was thund spoken to alluded to the threat onion 3:25:34.280 --> 3:25:37.199 and ways to mitigate harm to oneself and one's community, 3:25:37.280 --> 3:25:39.480 and I had to repeat it because it's this this 3:25:39.720 --> 3:25:43.000 meme that's been coming up forever. Yeah, And it is 3:25:43.080 --> 3:25:46.000 like the basic idea of the threat onion is that 3:25:46.600 --> 3:25:49.240 you have like this again, you if you think of 3:25:49.240 --> 3:25:51.000 it in layers. That's why they call it an onion 3:25:51.520 --> 3:25:54.520 um of like things that protect you, and the things 3:25:54.560 --> 3:25:57.240 that provide the most protection are stuff like not being 3:25:57.640 --> 3:26:01.320 seen or present when somebody wants to hrn you, um 3:26:01.360 --> 3:26:04.280 not or being behind cover when somebody wants to harm you. 3:26:04.320 --> 3:26:06.360 And the thing that offers the least protection is having 3:26:06.400 --> 3:26:10.240 body armor. You know. It's this the idea that like um, 3:26:10.640 --> 3:26:13.600 the things that people buy and and focus on because 3:26:13.640 --> 3:26:17.480 they look cool um are all things that offer less 3:26:17.480 --> 3:26:21.920 protection than situational awareness and good judgment. UM is kind 3:26:21.959 --> 3:26:24.240 of the actual like lesson I think to take out 3:26:24.240 --> 3:26:26.680 of the threat onion. That would be my opinion on 3:26:26.720 --> 3:26:29.160 the matter. This has been It could Happen here. That's 3:26:29.160 --> 3:26:32.040 all for this week. Find us That Happen Here pot 3:26:32.240 --> 3:26:34.120 on Instagram and Twitter, and find the rest of our 3:26:34.160 --> 3:26:48.640 shows at cool Zone Media in the same places. Hey, 3:26:48.680 --> 3:26:51.840 we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from 3:26:51.840 --> 3:26:54.600 now until the heat death of the Universe. It Could 3:26:54.600 --> 3:26:56.960 Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. For 3:26:57.080 --> 3:26:59.800 more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool 3:26:59.840 --> 3:27:01.840 zone media dot com, or check us out on the 3:27:01.879 --> 3:27:04.560 I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 3:27:04.600 --> 3:27:07.520 to podcasts. You can find sources for it Could happen here, 3:27:07.640 --> 3:27:11.240 updated monthly at cool Zone media dot com slash sources. 3:27:11.280 --> 3:27:15.279 Thanks for listening. 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