1 00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:17,880 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to What Goes Up, a weekly markets podcast. 2 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:20,480 Speaker 1: My name is Mike Reagan. I'm a senior editor at 3 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:25,880 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Nambodna Hi across Acid reporter at Bloomberg. This week 4 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:28,760 Speaker 1: on the show, well as any listeners who stick around 5 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:32,600 Speaker 1: long enough for our craziest things in market segments. No, 6 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:36,080 Speaker 1: we're kind of fascinated with n f t s these days, 7 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:38,559 Speaker 1: you know, the non fungible tokens that are some of 8 00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:42,319 Speaker 1: the hottest investments in the cryptocurrency markets these days. We're 9 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:44,519 Speaker 1: gonna take a deep dive into n f t s 10 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:47,080 Speaker 1: and all sorts of other hot topics on the blockchain 11 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:50,160 Speaker 1: this week with the CEO of a company that's involved 12 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:54,120 Speaker 1: in cryptocurrency investing. Now, you know, Vildana, I don't know 13 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:57,600 Speaker 1: if you've noticed, um that I'm not necessarily the youngest 14 00:00:57,640 --> 00:01:01,280 Speaker 1: hippest guy in the world. Have you picked up on that? Yeah, 15 00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:05,039 Speaker 1: I think everybody has. Okay, I'm sorry to break it 16 00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:07,480 Speaker 1: to you. The cats out of the back. So one 17 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:09,840 Speaker 1: of the hazards of being not so young and not 18 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:12,160 Speaker 1: so hip is that you don't it's tend not to 19 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:14,720 Speaker 1: like new things. You know, You're like, what's wrong with 20 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 1: these old things. I like the old things, and that was, 21 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:20,400 Speaker 1: do you still have an iPhone too? I actually have 22 00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:22,840 Speaker 1: a twelve. I've upgraded to the twelve recently, but only 23 00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:26,680 Speaker 1: because because my old iPhone one or whatever it was, 24 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:29,480 Speaker 1: that it was just stopped working. So I do. I 25 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:31,880 Speaker 1: am hip on the iPhones. But I'll tell you what, 26 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:34,440 Speaker 1: when you're not too young and not so hip, guy, 27 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 1: you tend to have a lot of friends who are 28 00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:39,039 Speaker 1: not so young and not so hip. And I've been 29 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:42,920 Speaker 1: fascinating any party I go to. Lately, the subject of 30 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:45,960 Speaker 1: n f T has come up, and people get, like 31 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:48,360 Speaker 1: I rationally angry at them, like why are these things 32 00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 1: worth anything? They're just j pegs, you know, And I 33 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:55,800 Speaker 1: find myself being the voice of reason that trying to explain, well, 34 00:01:56,120 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 1: you know, look at a Babe Ruth baseball card. What's 35 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 1: the intrinsic value of the cardboard that's printed on? You know, 36 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 1: it's all the it's all the scarcity value, the originality 37 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:08,200 Speaker 1: value of the item. Anyway, That's that's my way of 38 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:10,400 Speaker 1: explaining it. But we do have a guest this week 39 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:12,399 Speaker 1: who I think we'll do a better job than me 40 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 1: in explaining hopefully, hopefully, Yeah, you can only go up 41 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:20,919 Speaker 1: from here, right, Yeah, so I think he'll he'll give 42 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 1: us sort of the bookcase at least on some segments 43 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:25,240 Speaker 1: of the n f T market. So we're happy to 44 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:27,720 Speaker 1: have him on the show for the first time. He 45 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:32,120 Speaker 1: is the CEO of Ether Capital Corps, let's say, publicly 46 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:37,520 Speaker 1: listed company on Toronto's Neo Exchange. His name is Brian Massov. Brian, 47 00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:40,440 Speaker 1: welcome to the show. Thanks for having me, and hope 48 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 1: to join in on correcting some of the way you 49 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 1: look at the n f T s as an old 50 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 1: person who gets angry. Sorry, I don't know if I'm 51 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:49,400 Speaker 1: allowed to say that, but hopefully you're not angry by 52 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:51,400 Speaker 1: n f T s And yeah, let's dive into why 53 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:54,120 Speaker 1: why they might be potentially very valuable. I have an 54 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 1: old person who gets angry very easily. It's true. That's 55 00:02:56,600 --> 00:03:00,480 Speaker 1: absolutely right. But I'm coming around to these new fangled investments. 56 00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:03,119 Speaker 1: But before we delve into that, I'm I just want 57 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:06,840 Speaker 1: to sort of have you, uh introduced us to eat Capital. 58 00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:09,040 Speaker 1: What the company is all about, how you got involved 59 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:11,800 Speaker 1: with it, um, what the sort of mission and revenue 60 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:14,280 Speaker 1: stream is of the company. You know, what's it all about? 61 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:17,320 Speaker 1: So either Capital was put together in early two thousand 62 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:20,560 Speaker 1: and eighteen, and everyone looked around and said that during 63 00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:23,519 Speaker 1: the bull run of seen crypto assets were going crazy. 64 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:26,680 Speaker 1: Bitcoin's going from a few thousand dollars up to twenty dollars. 65 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 1: The I C omnia is going on, and it was 66 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:31,200 Speaker 1: really hard to find an access point in the capital 67 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:33,519 Speaker 1: markets to invest in the asset class and follow a 68 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:36,800 Speaker 1: group of people around the table who really understood the space. 69 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:39,600 Speaker 1: And so Either Capital had a very focused thesis the 70 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:42,040 Speaker 1: group of people around Ethereum and what was going to 71 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:44,720 Speaker 1: happen that there would be this smart contract platform that 72 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:46,680 Speaker 1: would be a very important piece of the Internet. And 73 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:48,760 Speaker 1: so it was put together to be an access point 74 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:51,720 Speaker 1: in the capital markets to a group of investors who said, 75 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:54,320 Speaker 1: I don't quite understand the space, but there seems to 76 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:57,280 Speaker 1: be something happening there, and I want exposure to it. 77 00:03:57,560 --> 00:03:59,840 Speaker 1: And it's funny because that's basically the same conversations. That's 78 00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:01,680 Speaker 1: how being around n f T s now right, there's 79 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 1: there's something happening there. There's a lot of hype, but 80 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 1: it's hard to find where's the real meat on the bone? 81 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:09,160 Speaker 1: What is going to last two years, five years, ten years? 82 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:12,720 Speaker 1: That comes from all this mania. So either capital invests 83 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:19,640 Speaker 1: in ethereum focused protocols and tokens in infrastructure. We're a 84 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:23,440 Speaker 1: group of crypto natives and traditional finance and venture capitalists 85 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:26,039 Speaker 1: who make up management in the board, and we're passionate 86 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:29,000 Speaker 1: about the stuff. We're passionate about the space. We I mean, 87 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:33,920 Speaker 1: I I've been in crypto since kind of late. This 88 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:36,000 Speaker 1: is my life. I don't have normal friends anymore. I 89 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:39,800 Speaker 1: don't have regular conversations. It's it's crypt seven on Twitter, 90 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:44,440 Speaker 1: on Discord, various chat groups. So very excited to you know, 91 00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:46,599 Speaker 1: come here and shed some of what I'm seeing with 92 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:50,000 Speaker 1: your listeners. It's funny to be at boil stay out. 93 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:52,760 Speaker 1: So there's certain class of investors who are like, yeah, yeah, crypto, 94 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:54,839 Speaker 1: it's exciting. Just tell me what I need a stock, Toby, 95 00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:56,840 Speaker 1: I need a stock divide, and that that's kind of 96 00:04:56,880 --> 00:04:58,560 Speaker 1: the niche fill with a with a company like this 97 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:00,840 Speaker 1: to some degree, I guess, I mean, I think it's 98 00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:02,920 Speaker 1: great if you look at kind of where we're at 99 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:06,240 Speaker 1: in terms of exposure points in the capital markets, there's 100 00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:08,480 Speaker 1: a number of different ways that now you can get 101 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:12,440 Speaker 1: proxies to crypto, whether it's through mining companies or e 102 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:14,599 Speaker 1: t f s or closed funds that are listed in 103 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:17,160 Speaker 1: the US. There's avenues for people to get exposure who 104 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:20,560 Speaker 1: aren't yet comfortable going and buying the asset direct and 105 00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:23,680 Speaker 1: either custodying it themselves or holding it on a platform 106 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:27,040 Speaker 1: that's not registered as kind of the traditional securities dealer. 107 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:29,960 Speaker 1: So you know, the space is improving. There's more access 108 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:32,800 Speaker 1: points now than ever, and you know that that's that's 109 00:05:32,839 --> 00:05:34,800 Speaker 1: great for everyone. That's great for the space. It's great 110 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:38,120 Speaker 1: for that new set of investors who weren't comfortable from 111 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 1: two thousand and nine up until kind of twenty who 112 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:44,760 Speaker 1: might have said, I want exposure to this space, I 113 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:47,160 Speaker 1: just don't know how to do it um and so 114 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:49,480 Speaker 1: they sat on the sidelines because they had no other choice. 115 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:51,640 Speaker 1: So I think that it's all it's all good for 116 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:53,359 Speaker 1: the space. But now we have this new part of 117 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:55,039 Speaker 1: the space, the n f T S, the n f 118 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:57,480 Speaker 1: T part, as you're saying, and people are wondering, well, 119 00:05:57,520 --> 00:05:59,200 Speaker 1: how do I invest in that? Do I even want 120 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:03,039 Speaker 1: to invest in that? So so right I'm hoping we 121 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 1: get to n f T s in a little bit. 122 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:06,839 Speaker 1: But I know that you had sent us a list 123 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:10,440 Speaker 1: of some of them most frequently asked questions you get 124 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:13,920 Speaker 1: from people, especially retail investors, and one of them was 125 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:17,839 Speaker 1: what are the real world problems crypto is trying to solve? 126 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:20,040 Speaker 1: And I feel like maybe that's something you guys were 127 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:22,680 Speaker 1: also thinking about before you started the firm. So what 128 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 1: what sort of answer do you give them when when 129 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:28,080 Speaker 1: people ask you that? It's kind of a two pronged question, 130 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:32,040 Speaker 1: because I think most people are looking for an everyday 131 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:34,640 Speaker 1: use case that they can latch onto and say, ah, 132 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:36,560 Speaker 1: now I understand what this thing is going to be. 133 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:41,040 Speaker 1: And it's kind of hard to look at that right 134 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:44,080 Speaker 1: now because it's still very much in this experimental phase. 135 00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:46,919 Speaker 1: So we know that one thing that crypto assets do 136 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:50,839 Speaker 1: is they create an investment opportunity or a network that 137 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:54,799 Speaker 1: is uncorrelated to traditional assets or over time hopefully becomes 138 00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:58,800 Speaker 1: uncorrelated to traditional assets. It's outside of the monetary policy 139 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 1: of any political agenda, a specific jurisdiction. When I look 140 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 1: at what bitcoin did, Justin Drake, who's an ethereum researcher, 141 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 1: describes um what bitcoin did is it came along and said, 142 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:15,160 Speaker 1: gold has this really interesting monetary policy. It has a 143 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:18,320 Speaker 1: very few unique attributes to it. There's a fixed amount 144 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:21,600 Speaker 1: it has to be extracted from the Earth's crust. It 145 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:24,720 Speaker 1: gets mined and extracted at a very specific rate um. 146 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:26,520 Speaker 1: But the problem with gold, of course, is that it's 147 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:29,200 Speaker 1: physical and it's not digital, so it can only go 148 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:31,600 Speaker 1: so far. And in the world of digital assets and 149 00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:37,600 Speaker 1: digital transforming of or or or sharing information, gold doesn't 150 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:39,800 Speaker 1: really work in that world. So Bitcoin comes along and says, 151 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:42,360 Speaker 1: can you replicate that same kind of monetary policy but 152 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:45,920 Speaker 1: in a digital environment? But Bitcoin kind of stops there, 153 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:48,520 Speaker 1: and that's kind of what bitcoin does. You can you 154 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:50,120 Speaker 1: can send it, you can receive it, but it can't 155 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:53,120 Speaker 1: do much more than that. Ethereum comes along and says, well, 156 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:55,640 Speaker 1: what if you kind of create this clearing house for 157 00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:58,720 Speaker 1: the world. The first thing that Ethereum really does is say, 158 00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 1: what if the world has a clearinghouse that no one company, 159 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:05,760 Speaker 1: no one party controls, and anyone can record their activity, 160 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:10,080 Speaker 1: their information, their token, tokenize their dollar, whatever activity they 161 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 1: want to perform can be recorded into this global ledger, 162 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:17,880 Speaker 1: this global settlement layer and just pay a little transaction fee. So, 163 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:20,920 Speaker 1: even though that's still kind of abstract, right, people are wondering, well, 164 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 1: what do I do with that? Who cares? So what? 165 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:25,880 Speaker 1: I think? We're still scratching the surface of how people 166 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:27,800 Speaker 1: are going to use this, and we're starting to see 167 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 1: use cases emerge. You're starting to see decentralized finance come around. 168 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:33,559 Speaker 1: You're starting to see n f t S digital art 169 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:37,680 Speaker 1: right that exists on a blockchain. That's becoming a recent trend. 170 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:40,880 Speaker 1: Um Visa about six months ago said that they're going 171 00:08:40,920 --> 00:08:43,880 Speaker 1: to test token izing U S dollars and moving them 172 00:08:43,920 --> 00:08:47,240 Speaker 1: across the Ethereum network for settlement between their their data centers. 173 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 1: So there's all sorts of of use cases that may 174 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:52,839 Speaker 1: seem legit, like what Visa does that has a kind 175 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 1: of nexus to the real world, but then there's this 176 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:58,480 Speaker 1: digitally native set of uses that we are not used 177 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:01,200 Speaker 1: to in our brand new And the second prong to this, 178 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:03,520 Speaker 1: which is much short, I promise I would say, is 179 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 1: that it's kind of like looking at the Internet in 180 00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:11,120 Speaker 1: the mid nineties and saying, well, okay, fine, I can 181 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:13,640 Speaker 1: only send an email if all my friends have an 182 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:16,520 Speaker 1: email account. How how valuable is this thing going to be? 183 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 1: The things that really became valuable. We're not just taking 184 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:22,440 Speaker 1: what existed in the physical world and saying, now I 185 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:25,400 Speaker 1: can replicate this in this digital environment. It was all 186 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 1: these use cases that no one imagined yet. So the 187 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:31,120 Speaker 1: early Internet, you know, had people taking their newspapers, their 188 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:34,360 Speaker 1: magazines and just copying and pasting the content. And what 189 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:37,240 Speaker 1: really was valuable about the Internet was saying, well, if 190 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:40,679 Speaker 1: something is digitally native, and it's built from the ground up, 191 00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:44,800 Speaker 1: respecting kind of the protocol design and the flexibility that 192 00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:47,600 Speaker 1: this new architecture allows, well, then all of a sudden, 193 00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:50,360 Speaker 1: it's not just about putting your newspaper up on some 194 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:53,080 Speaker 1: web page. It can become interactive in a way that 195 00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:57,640 Speaker 1: the world had never seen before. Right social media, Instagram, broadcasting, Twitter. 196 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:01,800 Speaker 1: These were things that didn't have an uh an existing 197 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:04,840 Speaker 1: structure prior to the Internet. And so I think people 198 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:06,880 Speaker 1: who are looking for the how do I copy and 199 00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:09,840 Speaker 1: paste an old model just into this environment. There will 200 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:11,600 Speaker 1: be some of that that goes on, and there's probably 201 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:14,600 Speaker 1: some you know, nine to ten improvements in there, but 202 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:17,000 Speaker 1: it's the zero to ones. It's those brand new use 203 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:19,800 Speaker 1: cases that you know, Peter tele talks about that that's 204 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:30,720 Speaker 1: what's really exciting here. I want to rewind a little bit. 205 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:33,439 Speaker 1: I'm glad you brought up that notion of crypto being 206 00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:36,320 Speaker 1: an uncorrelated asset. This is kind of a perennial debate 207 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:40,720 Speaker 1: here in crypto markets um, because at least looking at 208 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:43,160 Speaker 1: the big ones, if you look at ethereum and Bitcoin, 209 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:46,800 Speaker 1: there are sort of long stretches of time where they 210 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 1: do appear to be uncorrelated, to say that the SMP five. 211 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:52,200 Speaker 1: But then you have a week like this where the 212 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:55,719 Speaker 1: get kind of a macro shock with the China ever 213 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:58,439 Speaker 1: Grand or ever grand a situation. I don't think anyone 214 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 1: knows which one is right, but you get this shock 215 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:03,680 Speaker 1: at this sort of risk off move in markets, and 216 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:07,319 Speaker 1: crypto does seem to sort of tighten up that correlation 217 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:11,800 Speaker 1: with everything else um. And I imagine, you know, as 218 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:14,760 Speaker 1: more companies like yours come onto the public markets, as 219 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:18,320 Speaker 1: more companies like micro Strategy and Testlina hold more crypto 220 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:21,200 Speaker 1: on on their balance sheets, that there's the risk of 221 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:25,880 Speaker 1: that those correlations tightening tightening up. Even more so, is 222 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:30,360 Speaker 1: that sort of promise of crypto being uncorrelated uh dying 223 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 1: a slow death? Or am I looking at it wrong? 224 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:34,920 Speaker 1: You know what? How do you look at that that concept? 225 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:38,280 Speaker 1: I think that these assets over time will become more 226 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:41,520 Speaker 1: and more uncorrelated. Certainly. I think one of the things 227 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:43,719 Speaker 1: that you've seen in the last year or year and 228 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:46,200 Speaker 1: a half, you know, since COVID is we've realized the 229 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:48,839 Speaker 1: world is more interconnected and all these markets are more 230 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:52,760 Speaker 1: interconnected than everyone even imagined. And it didn't matter if 231 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:54,960 Speaker 1: it was the OPEC crisis, it didn't matter if it 232 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 1: was what just happened in the last week. People are 233 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:02,000 Speaker 1: looking for safe havens in these extreme moments of volatility, 234 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:03,960 Speaker 1: and the question is where the safe haven is going 235 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:05,920 Speaker 1: to be? What? What is the safe haven these days? 236 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:08,640 Speaker 1: Is that the US dollar? Is it? Crypto is it? 237 00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:11,320 Speaker 1: You know what? Where is that money gonna go? And 238 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:14,000 Speaker 1: markets don't like uncertainty. I think that we've seen that, 239 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:17,679 Speaker 1: you know before crypto. In crypto, people don't like uncertainty. 240 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 1: So this notion that crypto is this uncorrelated asset, I 241 00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:25,280 Speaker 1: think is something that will be more and more true 242 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:28,000 Speaker 1: as time goes on, as it continues to prove itself 243 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:32,640 Speaker 1: to be robust uh in in volatile times. I think 244 00:12:32,679 --> 00:12:38,480 Speaker 1: it was very important that in the March of market crash, 245 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:41,280 Speaker 1: bit quin ether and you know, all the crypto markets, 246 00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:45,120 Speaker 1: despite them having this drop and basically a twenty four period, 247 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:48,640 Speaker 1: which is extreme. By the way, everything you know I got, 248 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 1: I got a lot of text. It was not a 249 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 1: happy day, certainly from my phone blowing up and with 250 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:55,040 Speaker 1: my friends. But you know what you did get to 251 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 1: see is that the space didn't die. The asset class 252 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:00,960 Speaker 1: did not go to zero, and in fact, not only 253 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:02,920 Speaker 1: did it not go to zero, it woke up this 254 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:06,280 Speaker 1: new group of investors who had written off this idea 255 00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:10,080 Speaker 1: of bitcoin or ethereum or cryptoassets and said, there's this 256 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:13,600 Speaker 1: pending inflation that everyone's concerned about. What are the alternatives? 257 00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:16,400 Speaker 1: I mean, so there's gold, fine, but maybe some of 258 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:18,440 Speaker 1: that spills off into bitcoin. And so you have these 259 00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:21,880 Speaker 1: new investors who before did not want to participate in 260 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:24,840 Speaker 1: this environment and say, maybe crypto is a place that 261 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:28,280 Speaker 1: has a partner portfolio, doesn't matter if it's big or small. 262 00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 1: But maybe this is going to become a legit asset class. 263 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:33,600 Speaker 1: So I think that it's still going to be volatile 264 00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:36,119 Speaker 1: for the foreseeable future. It's still going to be correlated 265 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:38,760 Speaker 1: in times like this, and over time that volatility will 266 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:41,440 Speaker 1: drop and people will be less scared, uh and the 267 00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:44,559 Speaker 1: swings will be less wild. So it's it's there. It's 268 00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:46,880 Speaker 1: going to take time. Though, when we talked about a 269 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:49,240 Speaker 1: week ago, I was I was impressed with sort of 270 00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:53,319 Speaker 1: your bowl case for f and crypto punks or as 271 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:57,120 Speaker 1: I call them, cyberpunks as I incorrectly call him the cyberpunks, 272 00:13:57,120 --> 00:14:00,400 Speaker 1: but crypto punks. I was suppressed with sort of your 273 00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:04,600 Speaker 1: your rationale for why we should take these seriously? Um, 274 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:06,960 Speaker 1: so you know, give me some more ammunition at my 275 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:09,800 Speaker 1: cocktail parties with the angry old men that I associate 276 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:12,120 Speaker 1: with when they say, it's just a JPEG, it's not 277 00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:14,480 Speaker 1: worth anything. What's what's your book case here for? For 278 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:18,440 Speaker 1: this whole asset class? So I think it's helpful for 279 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 1: listeners to understand the mechanics behind the specific project as 280 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:26,680 Speaker 1: we dive in and then discuss how they're going to 281 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:29,560 Speaker 1: be used in these new systems, because then there's just 282 00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:33,480 Speaker 1: more context there. So in two thousand and seventeen, Larva 283 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 1: Labs basically publishes ten thousand unique characters that have various 284 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:43,440 Speaker 1: combinations of attributes as JPEG's. Actually I think that they're 285 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:46,280 Speaker 1: technically either SVG files or PNG s. I'm not sure, 286 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:48,600 Speaker 1: but someone's super techy out there is gonna jump on 287 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:51,640 Speaker 1: me if I call it a jpeg. But they publish it, 288 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:54,760 Speaker 1: and whether it's it's a male cryptopun courts female, or 289 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:57,960 Speaker 1: it has wild white hair or three D glasses or 290 00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 1: maybe a handlebar mustache, there's all these different attributes and 291 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:04,320 Speaker 1: different combinations of these attributes, and they put it up 292 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:06,520 Speaker 1: on this website and they're completely free. All you have 293 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:09,040 Speaker 1: to do is pay the four dollar gas fee and 294 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:11,200 Speaker 1: you could claim one to your address. You would claim 295 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:15,360 Speaker 1: the ownership over that picture. And most people wrote this 296 00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:17,600 Speaker 1: off and said, well that that's kind of an interesting idea, 297 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:20,480 Speaker 1: but yeah, I'm not interested in paying the four dollars 298 00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:24,440 Speaker 1: for this jpeg. Forget it. And what ends up happening 299 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:26,080 Speaker 1: is there's enough people go this is kind of an 300 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:30,800 Speaker 1: interesting idea. How would you um create a token that 301 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:34,920 Speaker 1: represents a specific thing versus something that's fungible. So for 302 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 1: anyone who's not familiar, right, fungibility would just be I 303 00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 1: give you the five dollar bill. You don't care which 304 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:41,480 Speaker 1: five dollar bill I pull out of my pocket. You're 305 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:43,200 Speaker 1: happy that I give you a five dollar bill. In 306 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:46,760 Speaker 1: a non fungible token world, uh, the token represents a 307 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 1: specific thing, so it's not just that you bought a 308 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:53,160 Speaker 1: house on this street. You care which house specifically you purchased. 309 00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 1: And so in the context of the crypto punks, you 310 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:58,440 Speaker 1: don't care that you have a claim on a crypto punk. 311 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 1: You want to know that no, no no, no, I the 312 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:03,640 Speaker 1: specific crypto punk with the handlebar mustache and the three 313 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:08,560 Speaker 1: D glasses. And it spawns a bunch of research and 314 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:11,960 Speaker 1: a new token standard on ethereum. So it's it's a 315 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:15,920 Speaker 1: different tech standard basically, and that's called the e r 316 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:19,640 Speaker 1: c SE. It goes away, and it possibly just goes 317 00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:21,920 Speaker 1: away because we're in this bear market, right this is 318 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:25,120 Speaker 1: kind of mid two thousand and seventeen, two eighteen, the 319 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 1: price of crypto crashes, and so most people are kind 320 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:30,280 Speaker 1: of shying away from the space. Maybe some developers leave. 321 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:33,760 Speaker 1: The community shrinks a little bit, but n f t 322 00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 1: s are certainly not what they are today. And in 323 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:43,000 Speaker 1: the I would say mides um and people are waking 324 00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:45,960 Speaker 1: up to this idea of of digitally native art, you know, 325 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:47,680 Speaker 1: that lives on a blockchain, and how could it be 326 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:50,560 Speaker 1: sold for this much? And around this point in time, 327 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:54,520 Speaker 1: everyone turns in the community back towards the crypto punks 328 00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:57,240 Speaker 1: and says well, this is the first. Right, this is 329 00:16:57,240 --> 00:17:00,240 Speaker 1: the first time anyone ever tried this experiment on ethereum. 330 00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:03,280 Speaker 1: Its spawned the e r C seven twenty one token standard. 331 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:05,720 Speaker 1: There's only ten thousand. There can't ever be more of them. 332 00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:08,600 Speaker 1: People turn around and say, well, crypto punks are the first, 333 00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:11,800 Speaker 1: and in a in an environment where everyone is looking 334 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:15,080 Speaker 1: for scarcity, right as the US dollar is is hitting this, 335 00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:19,240 Speaker 1: you know, pending inflation, people looking at gold. A lot 336 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:21,480 Speaker 1: of the criticisms that people have towards n f T 337 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:23,640 Speaker 1: s in a way you can catch them and say, 338 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:26,000 Speaker 1: how is that any different than your arguments towards bitcoin, 339 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:27,920 Speaker 1: And then they go no, no no, no, but bitcoin is different. 340 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:30,920 Speaker 1: You go why, and you start hearing them say well, 341 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:33,679 Speaker 1: there's a fixed amount of them. You go yeah, but 342 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:36,680 Speaker 1: you could create other bitcoins, right, you could create light coin, 343 00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:38,920 Speaker 1: you could create dose coin, you could have feather coin. 344 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:42,639 Speaker 1: There's something sticky about being the first and representing a 345 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:47,080 Speaker 1: specific point in time culturally that a community rallies around 346 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:50,600 Speaker 1: in terms of consensus that they say this is this 347 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:53,880 Speaker 1: is the one. And so I also like to point 348 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:55,920 Speaker 1: out to people say that there's no intrinsic value, or 349 00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:58,640 Speaker 1: there's you know, how are they how are they valued? 350 00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:03,320 Speaker 1: Look at something like Twitter. Twitter is not valuable because 351 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:05,720 Speaker 1: of the number of servers that they're running in the 352 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:08,200 Speaker 1: number of data centers that they have in the backups. No, 353 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:11,840 Speaker 1: it's valuable because you can't just replicate that same number 354 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:14,240 Speaker 1: of servers and data centers somewhere. It's valuable because there's 355 00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:17,480 Speaker 1: social consensus and a network effect that has taken place 356 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:20,239 Speaker 1: around that set of standards that people go, we're all 357 00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:22,480 Speaker 1: going to rally around this thing, and we think that 358 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:26,000 Speaker 1: that's the place to have our you know, three sentence communication, 359 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:28,719 Speaker 1: and that's where the value comes. It's the network effect, 360 00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:31,879 Speaker 1: and that applies to bitcoin, and that also applies to 361 00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:37,720 Speaker 1: crypto punks. So the crypto punks start getting bought up 362 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:40,960 Speaker 1: kind of in that latter half of twenty nine, sorry, 363 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:45,520 Speaker 1: and then have this huge explosion basically you know, throughout 364 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 1: this year. And the reason that they're valuable is they're 365 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:50,320 Speaker 1: the first they the very first n f T project 366 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:52,880 Speaker 1: that exists in ethereum. They're kind of, in a way, 367 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:56,040 Speaker 1: the birth of this entire movement. So the people who 368 00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:58,080 Speaker 1: criticize and say all of n f T s are 369 00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:01,000 Speaker 1: are a bubble and they're not worth anything. I will 370 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:03,679 Speaker 1: agree that most n f T s probably won't be 371 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:06,240 Speaker 1: around in five years or hold any value five years 372 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:11,200 Speaker 1: from now, but crypto punk specifically, those are the opportunities 373 00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:14,760 Speaker 1: to buy these works of art that some people would 374 00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:18,120 Speaker 1: argue it as an art, but it's the opportunity to 375 00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:22,119 Speaker 1: to buy into these very early historical pieces that have 376 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:27,720 Speaker 1: not only cultural significance, but they also represent um I think, 377 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:33,119 Speaker 1: a transition in the art world towards more utility, uh 378 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:52,520 Speaker 1: to what these pieces of art can do. So I 379 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:55,159 Speaker 1: was thinking of this column that Matt Levina Bloomberg Opinion 380 00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 1: wrote a couple of days ago, where he quoted somebody 381 00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:00,920 Speaker 1: who said, you know, this f T that this person 382 00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:03,560 Speaker 1: had bought brought this person joy. And so it got 383 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:05,800 Speaker 1: me thinking about, like, what are some of the reasons 384 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:08,400 Speaker 1: somebody might want to own an n f T besides 385 00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:13,040 Speaker 1: just the collectibles aspect of it. And you know, it's 386 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:15,560 Speaker 1: not like if you buy a share of Ford, for instance, 387 00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:17,880 Speaker 1: that sort of brings you join or joy or makes 388 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:19,560 Speaker 1: you happy, But like, what are some of the other 389 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:23,080 Speaker 1: reasons that somebody might be into n f T s 390 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:29,160 Speaker 1: besides just the collectible aspect. So I think that most 391 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:32,040 Speaker 1: of the purchasing of n f t s right now 392 00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:35,240 Speaker 1: is on speculation. People are trying to catch the next 393 00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:37,919 Speaker 1: pudgy penguin or board apiacht club that will have this 394 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:41,960 Speaker 1: huge explosion and in price and value. And there's something 395 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:45,119 Speaker 1: fun about it. It doesn't take itself too seriously. In fact, 396 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:47,879 Speaker 1: kind of the weirder and the more fun these n 397 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:50,040 Speaker 1: f t s can be by design, the more people 398 00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:53,200 Speaker 1: seem to be interested in playing with them. But there's 399 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:56,639 Speaker 1: something else happening under the surface, which is that utility. 400 00:20:56,680 --> 00:20:59,560 Speaker 1: And I think that's where I sit in my interest 401 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:01,280 Speaker 1: in what n f t s are going to be. 402 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:04,399 Speaker 1: And there's two things here. The first is I think 403 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:07,560 Speaker 1: what you're seeing in the world also right now. Is 404 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:12,560 Speaker 1: that the controversial statement, but I'll just say it is. 405 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:15,359 Speaker 1: Money is just a meme, right, All money, in a 406 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:17,520 Speaker 1: way is just a meme. I call money memes, right 407 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:19,760 Speaker 1: the U. S. Dollar. What is the meme of the U. S. Dollar. Well, 408 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:22,880 Speaker 1: it's most powerful nation in the world, most successful economy, 409 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:26,240 Speaker 1: in the world's biggest army, most stability. You know, it 410 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:30,240 Speaker 1: represents certain things. And so if you think about this 411 00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:32,280 Speaker 1: as an equation, I was saying this to a friend 412 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:34,040 Speaker 1: the other day that if you think that this is 413 00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:36,560 Speaker 1: an equation where you have money on one side, an 414 00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:39,280 Speaker 1: equal sign and then a meme word on the other side, 415 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:43,120 Speaker 1: what we're starting to see is that the equation goes 416 00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:46,879 Speaker 1: into directions and that memes can also become money. And 417 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:49,240 Speaker 1: that's something that I don't think people had considered before, 418 00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:51,800 Speaker 1: is that something can meme its way into being money. 419 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:54,199 Speaker 1: And you watch that kind of starting to happen with 420 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:57,600 Speaker 1: dog coin. Dos coin came out in I think late 421 00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:00,119 Speaker 1: two thousand and thirteen. The last week or two the 422 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:03,479 Speaker 1: code gets published. Um, people get really excited by it. 423 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:06,800 Speaker 1: It's fun, it's not taking itself too seriously. And then 424 00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 1: it kind of goes away. And now there's this renewed 425 00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:12,159 Speaker 1: interest in where people are going. Maybe this is going 426 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:14,640 Speaker 1: to be a transactional currency. I don't know why not. 427 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:17,200 Speaker 1: There's so there's so much of it. People seem to 428 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:19,720 Speaker 1: love it. It doesn't have the political agenda of any 429 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:22,280 Speaker 1: specific nation or group of people. It's kind of like 430 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:25,199 Speaker 1: the People's money, right, It's just it's just fun. Now. 431 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:27,399 Speaker 1: It doesn't mean that it will be money today, but 432 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:30,399 Speaker 1: it wouldn't surprise me. If toascoin became the way people 433 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:33,280 Speaker 1: paid to go see a movie or or I don't know, 434 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:35,840 Speaker 1: paid to buy their groceries with it. And so I 435 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:38,560 Speaker 1: think the idea that that money has kind of turned 436 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:41,240 Speaker 1: into a meme and memes can now turn into money 437 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:45,200 Speaker 1: unlocks this really interesting potential for n f t s. 438 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:48,280 Speaker 1: It Michael, when I was speaking to you, I think 439 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:50,439 Speaker 1: a week ago, when I was telling you about all 440 00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:53,199 Speaker 1: this utility that n f t s can potentially have. 441 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:56,840 Speaker 1: One of the reasons people might be buying n f 442 00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:00,240 Speaker 1: t s because they're starting to understand the potential actual 443 00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:04,280 Speaker 1: utility of some of these assets. So crypto punks in particular, 444 00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:09,640 Speaker 1: you know, if there's enough price discovery on these assets 445 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:12,800 Speaker 1: and there's high enough velocity and it has you know, 446 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:16,200 Speaker 1: the Lenda effects around long enough, potentially what happens is 447 00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:19,600 Speaker 1: some new utility gets unlocked. And so we have to 448 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:22,200 Speaker 1: go beyond just looking at them as forms of art 449 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:24,560 Speaker 1: and say, well, what is the ven diagram then of 450 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:27,399 Speaker 1: this going to be, And that is that it unlocks 451 00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:30,080 Speaker 1: things that don't really exist in the art world. So 452 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:33,719 Speaker 1: complete global access in liquidity is a new part of 453 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:37,359 Speaker 1: this equation, right, someone who lives in Asia. Someone who 454 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:40,600 Speaker 1: lives in South America can now participate in the financial aspect, 455 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:42,600 Speaker 1: or you could sell it to someone who lives in 456 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:46,880 Speaker 1: that part of the world. There's also cryptoeconomics that enters 457 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:51,480 Speaker 1: into the equation. Um there's also the programmability and the 458 00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:55,760 Speaker 1: decentralized finance aspect of these um of these assets. And 459 00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:58,320 Speaker 1: so there's all these kind of really interesting ways that 460 00:23:58,440 --> 00:23:59,480 Speaker 1: n f T s I think are going to be 461 00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:02,160 Speaker 1: used in the future that go beyond just you bought 462 00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:04,040 Speaker 1: a picture. But Brian, but before we get to the 463 00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:07,080 Speaker 1: crazy things, I do wanna touch on that idea you're 464 00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:10,520 Speaker 1: talking about a defy and how n f T s 465 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:13,919 Speaker 1: kinda can get some added utility to them. You know, 466 00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:18,159 Speaker 1: there's some project, was an eight or guerrilla that that 467 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:22,120 Speaker 1: spits off a banana every day that's as a separate 468 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:24,439 Speaker 1: n f T That's that's, you know, I think of 469 00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:28,399 Speaker 1: as like a dividend. But my point is that it's 470 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:30,919 Speaker 1: actually a project. Did I miss this one? And it is. 471 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:33,480 Speaker 1: I'll send you a link to it. Yeah, I forgot 472 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:36,760 Speaker 1: the name of people wanted bananas and then people buy 473 00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:41,720 Speaker 1: the bananas. But I whatever, you know, because the rest 474 00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:44,399 Speaker 1: I bringing up is every day we wake up to 475 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:48,680 Speaker 1: some new headline, news headline about regulators finally catching up 476 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:52,680 Speaker 1: with this whole industry, and you know, incorrect, There is 477 00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:55,280 Speaker 1: no catching up. It moves way too fast. But sorry, sorry, 478 00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:58,600 Speaker 1: that's keep going. No, that's that's a fair point. That's 479 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:00,480 Speaker 1: a fair point, and I agree, I totally with you. 480 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:03,239 Speaker 1: But I had always kind of thought of n f 481 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:07,800 Speaker 1: t s as vaguely regulator proof because I don't see 482 00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:10,080 Speaker 1: an argument about how an n f T could be 483 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:13,439 Speaker 1: a security unless you start using it in yield farming 484 00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:15,000 Speaker 1: and that sort of thing. And then and then maybe 485 00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:18,239 Speaker 1: that crosses the line. But for the broad picture, you know, 486 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:22,080 Speaker 1: how are you thinking about the regulatory risks in the 487 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:26,040 Speaker 1: entire space, you know, and sort of how do you 488 00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:28,639 Speaker 1: determine who the who the winners and losers are going 489 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:31,359 Speaker 1: to be as the regulation and scrutiny gets a little 490 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:33,800 Speaker 1: bit greater, and you know, and if if n f 491 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:35,479 Speaker 1: T s fit into your thinking of that at all, 492 00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:38,640 Speaker 1: then then soap. But I'm just curious, you know, when 493 00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:41,160 Speaker 1: you wake up and see a new headline about this regulator, 494 00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:45,000 Speaker 1: that regulator, you know, issuing a subpoena or sending a 495 00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:48,480 Speaker 1: wells notice or whatever it is. Um, how do you 496 00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:51,720 Speaker 1: decide where who's gonna win and lose in an environment 497 00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:56,000 Speaker 1: where the scrutiny is getting ratcheted up. I don't think 498 00:25:56,200 --> 00:26:00,320 Speaker 1: it matters that much what regulators do. I ink what 499 00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:03,080 Speaker 1: it does do is it will change how people interact 500 00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:07,000 Speaker 1: with these assets and how they interact from specific jurisdictions. 501 00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:09,320 Speaker 1: But I don't think the assets themselves are going to 502 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:13,720 Speaker 1: just disappear overnight. You can't regulate at the protocol level, 503 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:16,560 Speaker 1: meaning you can't change the code of bitcoin. You can't 504 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:19,639 Speaker 1: force I P addresses into transactions. Now you can do 505 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:23,520 Speaker 1: other things to try and extract IP addresses from transactions 506 00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:25,920 Speaker 1: to look for nefarious activity. You saw this happen with 507 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:29,560 Speaker 1: you know, the Silk Road case in twenty fourteen, I 508 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:32,320 Speaker 1: think is when that was really going on. But what's 509 00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:34,639 Speaker 1: going to get regulated here are the access points and 510 00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:38,560 Speaker 1: the marketplaces, and that's fine and it'll play out. However, 511 00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:42,520 Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not against those being regulated. I think 512 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:44,720 Speaker 1: you're right in that n f T s are probably 513 00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:49,560 Speaker 1: fairly regulator proof, but it depends on the distribution mechanism 514 00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:51,480 Speaker 1: of the n f T. As you're saying, kind of 515 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:53,920 Speaker 1: depends how the n f T gets used. So maybe 516 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:58,080 Speaker 1: the crypto punk specifically itself is not a security, but 517 00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:01,120 Speaker 1: if you try and fractionalize it, you know, maybe then 518 00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:04,439 Speaker 1: you've created a derivative. And maybe derivatives get caught up 519 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:07,040 Speaker 1: because it's held in a specific way and it gets 520 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:10,760 Speaker 1: trapped by securities law or the marketplace that's trading those derivatives, 521 00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:13,199 Speaker 1: you know, would have to register as some type of marketplace. 522 00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:17,120 Speaker 1: I don't know exactly how this is going to play out. 523 00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:20,280 Speaker 1: I think overall it'll be good for the space and 524 00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:23,480 Speaker 1: it will be great for investors long term because there'll 525 00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:26,359 Speaker 1: be clarity around how to interact with these assets and 526 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:31,480 Speaker 1: these marketplaces. UM. I think this is a personal thesis, 527 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:34,720 Speaker 1: not a if cap anything. I think what you're gonna 528 00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:37,320 Speaker 1: see as a bit of a bifurcation in this space 529 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:42,919 Speaker 1: where um, we're going to have these regulated versions of 530 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:45,920 Speaker 1: these assets that there's ky C and a m L 531 00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:48,760 Speaker 1: applied to both sides of a transaction, or the wallets 532 00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:51,880 Speaker 1: are fully ky seed, where you know, if you withdraw 533 00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:54,879 Speaker 1: from coin base or any exchange, you know, they're going 534 00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:58,199 Speaker 1: to have to know potentially, um, which who owns the 535 00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:01,760 Speaker 1: wallet that the asset is withdrawn to UM, and that 536 00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:04,000 Speaker 1: will only be able to interact with, you know, a 537 00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:07,000 Speaker 1: certain other set of wallets potentially. But then I also 538 00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:08,960 Speaker 1: see a whole other side of the world that is 539 00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:13,119 Speaker 1: going to continue building UM these protocols in these assets 540 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:16,959 Speaker 1: in a way that may not be respectful of any 541 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:20,439 Speaker 1: specific jurisdictions mandates UM, and so there may be trading 542 00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:23,679 Speaker 1: that takes place in very unregulated environments. Right you can 543 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:26,800 Speaker 1: look at something like unit swap or sushi swap UM. 544 00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:30,560 Speaker 1: These are decentralized exchanges for anyone who who's not familiar 545 00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:34,440 Speaker 1: where you don't k y C when you go there. 546 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:37,560 Speaker 1: You don't deposit your funds in any custodial wallet that's 547 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 1: being housed by a corporation. And people who wrote off 548 00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:44,440 Speaker 1: that idea that decentralization can get to scale or a 549 00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:47,200 Speaker 1: meaningful amount of traction. One stat that I like to 550 00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:50,880 Speaker 1: point out is that in early twenty nineteen, I think 551 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:53,320 Speaker 1: it was early twenty nineteen, whenever unit swap kind of 552 00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 1: began UM, there was maybe a million dollars a day 553 00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:02,200 Speaker 1: slashing round on unit swaps, so not a meaningful amount 554 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:08,760 Speaker 1: of volume. But in the summer of last year there 555 00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:11,440 Speaker 1: was about three billion dollars a day. I think that 556 00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:15,000 Speaker 1: was traded on Uni swap, and that's not insignificant. And 557 00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:17,400 Speaker 1: at the same day, whenever I don't know, looked at 558 00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:19,760 Speaker 1: the stat or it made its way around Twitter, coin 559 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:23,160 Speaker 1: base also traded about three billion dollars on the retail exchange, 560 00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:26,200 Speaker 1: and so I looked at that and thought that is 561 00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:30,680 Speaker 1: fantastic and wild and crazy to imagine that this decentralized 562 00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:37,080 Speaker 1: protocol that basically has zero employees, zero regulatory oversight, zero registrations, 563 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:43,600 Speaker 1: compliance jurisdictions, offices, overheads, bank accounts, corporate registrations, was able 564 00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:46,200 Speaker 1: to do the same volume as a company that has, 565 00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:50,000 Speaker 1: you know, hundreds or thousands of employees. You have to 566 00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:52,320 Speaker 1: imagine that that is that trend is not going to 567 00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:55,840 Speaker 1: stop and that these protocols will become more robust. So 568 00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:59,479 Speaker 1: the question really will become long term, how how does 569 00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:03,800 Speaker 1: the regular lated world interact with the decentralized world if 570 00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:06,680 Speaker 1: everything gets tried to be completely ky seed and pushed 571 00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:10,520 Speaker 1: back into boxes that regulators are comfortable with. My view 572 00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:13,320 Speaker 1: is that we've just kind of recreated ce FI centralized 573 00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:16,400 Speaker 1: finance with a little bit of optimization in there. The 574 00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:20,560 Speaker 1: real interesting stuff is happening in that decentralized, chaotic world 575 00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:22,720 Speaker 1: that yeah, there's gonna be a lot of scams, and 576 00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:24,280 Speaker 1: there's gonna be a lot of things that go wrong, 577 00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:26,000 Speaker 1: but I think that there's going to be a lot 578 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:28,600 Speaker 1: of really interesting things that come of it, um. And 579 00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:31,280 Speaker 1: so it'll be interesting to see how this, how this 580 00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:34,640 Speaker 1: plays out, UM, and how people who live in heavily 581 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:39,680 Speaker 1: regulated jurisdictions will continue to get access to projects and 582 00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:44,440 Speaker 1: protocols and marketplaces that have liquidity, that have important or 583 00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:47,680 Speaker 1: meaningful assets that are going to play a big part 584 00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:51,440 Speaker 1: of this future economy. Stand clear. Of the craziest things 585 00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:57,320 Speaker 1: we saw in markets this week, we donna k y C. 586 00:30:57,920 --> 00:30:59,840 Speaker 1: You know what that means. That means no, your customer, 587 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:02,600 Speaker 1: And if I know the customers of this podcast, I 588 00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:04,880 Speaker 1: think one thing I know is they're ready for some 589 00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:07,920 Speaker 1: crazy things that we saw in markets this week. How's 590 00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:11,320 Speaker 1: that for a segue? Not bad? Huh, that's what a transition? 591 00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:14,960 Speaker 1: Thank you? Really, I get to say he emailed me 592 00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:16,800 Speaker 1: ahead of time and said, just f y I this 593 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,080 Speaker 1: is gonna happen. So try and think of a crazy 594 00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:21,280 Speaker 1: thing you saw on the market. And I thought, well, 595 00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:24,000 Speaker 1: I have something that will top anything else you guys 596 00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:26,280 Speaker 1: have seen. And I'm curious when I when I dropped 597 00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:29,360 Speaker 1: my probably when I dropped mine. I'm curious. I'm curious 598 00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:32,160 Speaker 1: if you say something someone a guest has ever topped 599 00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:37,080 Speaker 1: this go I'll go last, though. Alright, well, Brian goes last. 600 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:39,080 Speaker 1: With that set up, you gotta go last. I'll go first. 601 00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:42,600 Speaker 1: Widen's real simple. I'm taking us back to traditional trad 602 00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:46,360 Speaker 1: five markets with the return to the office of all 603 00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:50,400 Speaker 1: the Wall Street banks and the money center banks in London, 604 00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:54,040 Speaker 1: all the trading desks returning. I believe it was City 605 00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:59,560 Speaker 1: Group in London, vill Donna. They're offering therapy puppies upon 606 00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:02,120 Speaker 1: arrival to work. You have a puppy to play with 607 00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:05,000 Speaker 1: two um sort of ease the stress of coming back 608 00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:07,320 Speaker 1: to the office, which I find kind of adorable and 609 00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:12,080 Speaker 1: kind of bizarre. But I will say my dog does 610 00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:15,480 Speaker 1: not relieve stress. My dog creates stress, especially during podcasts 611 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:17,960 Speaker 1: and radio interviews and TV. You never know when he's 612 00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:20,400 Speaker 1: gonna start yapping. So I don't know. I think I 613 00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:23,000 Speaker 1: heard him early, already heard him. Yeah, someone wants a 614 00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:28,000 Speaker 1: cat question. What about the cat people of the world. 615 00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:29,840 Speaker 1: I don't know. More stress. I don't know. I don't 616 00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:31,520 Speaker 1: know if it will see We'll see how the therapy 617 00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:34,240 Speaker 1: puppies work out. I don't know if therapy cats would 618 00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:36,000 Speaker 1: be such a good idea with the clause and the 619 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:39,080 Speaker 1: allergies and I don't know. Maybe that could be thermal 620 00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:43,480 Speaker 1: therapy n FT pudgy penguins or something like that. I 621 00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:46,320 Speaker 1: don't know, not a bad idea. My cat is up 622 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:50,400 Speaker 1: for a therapy cat petting. She she she's really great. 623 00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:55,560 Speaker 1: Um my craziest thing also is in traditional uh in 624 00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:59,000 Speaker 1: the in the traditional finance world. I want to give 625 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:01,800 Speaker 1: a shout out to Katie gray Felt who actually flagged 626 00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:04,960 Speaker 1: this one for me, and she had flagged in e 627 00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:07,200 Speaker 1: t F filing earlier in the week from black Rock 628 00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:12,560 Speaker 1: and black Rock filed for a China tech e t F, 629 00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:17,640 Speaker 1: which with everything happening with China and the sell off 630 00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:23,120 Speaker 1: there and the regulatory crackdown, the timing is so interesting 631 00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:26,600 Speaker 1: to me. So to me, this was one of the 632 00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:29,360 Speaker 1: weirdest things that I mean, obviously there was a lot 633 00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:33,280 Speaker 1: of weird stuff, but it is an odd time. I'm 634 00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:37,200 Speaker 1: speechless on the timing. That's all right, good one, good one, 635 00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:39,960 Speaker 1: all right, Brian, you build it up for us. Here 636 00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:42,920 Speaker 1: hit us with your craziest thing. So it's an n 637 00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:46,960 Speaker 1: f T story since that's the topic of today's episode basically, 638 00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:51,160 Speaker 1: and that is an n f T project that started 639 00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:55,920 Speaker 1: out with a website called j PEG's Auto Mart, so 640 00:33:56,280 --> 00:34:01,400 Speaker 1: j spelled j a y space Peg Automart. I mean, 641 00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:03,360 Speaker 1: it's all, you know, pushed together for the for the 642 00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:06,520 Speaker 1: u r L. But it basically looks like a late 643 00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:12,560 Speaker 1: nineties website circa you know, or Allah Geo Cities and 644 00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:16,000 Speaker 1: angel Fire if anyone remembers those days, with streamers and 645 00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:19,840 Speaker 1: terrible colors and terrible fonts, which I actually think that 646 00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:23,480 Speaker 1: the aesthetic is incredible. And they were selling n f 647 00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:27,960 Speaker 1: T s of two thousand and seven Kia Sedonas. And 648 00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:31,200 Speaker 1: this began because someone found out that this is apparently 649 00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:33,400 Speaker 1: one of the rarest cars in the world. It was 650 00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:36,800 Speaker 1: not very it was not manufactured in any kind of 651 00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:40,680 Speaker 1: high numbers, and so you could go on this website 652 00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:42,760 Speaker 1: and there was actually some very interesting kind of crypto 653 00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:45,800 Speaker 1: economic distribution mechanisms that they used in this n f 654 00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:49,480 Speaker 1: T drop. But everyone was very excited about getting a 655 00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:53,560 Speaker 1: two thousand and seven Kia Sedona n f T and uh, 656 00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:56,440 Speaker 1: I look at this stuff and just go, this is amazing. 657 00:34:56,960 --> 00:35:01,480 Speaker 1: This is just so much fun. And uh, you know 658 00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:04,200 Speaker 1: all my discord and chat groups, this is everyone talking 659 00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:06,560 Speaker 1: about getting their minivans and have you have you made 660 00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:08,440 Speaker 1: sure that you've got your keys yet and signed your 661 00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:11,480 Speaker 1: least paperwork? So I encourage everyone to go to that 662 00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:13,120 Speaker 1: website and kind of see what it was all about. 663 00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:14,880 Speaker 1: I'm not sure that it will have staying power in 664 00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:17,080 Speaker 1: the n f T world, but it definitely was the 665 00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:20,520 Speaker 1: craziest and most fun thing I've seen, uh this week 666 00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:24,240 Speaker 1: in in the crypto assets space. That is pretty awesome. 667 00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:27,440 Speaker 1: Kia sedonas I can't even picture what it's a minivan. 668 00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:29,279 Speaker 1: I guess you're right that they must be rare, because 669 00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:31,040 Speaker 1: I don't think I've ever just written in one. And 670 00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:32,640 Speaker 1: and I'll tell you an old guy like me, I've 671 00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:34,800 Speaker 1: written a lot of minivans in my day, olda But 672 00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:38,320 Speaker 1: here's a question. Was there really a difference between any minivan? 673 00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:41,640 Speaker 1: I did the Dodge in the Chrysler. Did any of 674 00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:44,360 Speaker 1: them really look any different? There? Like it didn't It 675 00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:46,480 Speaker 1: didn't matter, It didn't matter. No one went over and said, oh, 676 00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:48,680 Speaker 1: check out my Dodge. One it's like, no, it looks 677 00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:50,160 Speaker 1: the same as all the other ones. Who cares You're 678 00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:52,160 Speaker 1: in a minivan. Let's be real, you're in a mini vent. 679 00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:54,840 Speaker 1: This is your life now. So but I think it 680 00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:57,440 Speaker 1: ties back to your and I've written about this too, 681 00:35:57,520 --> 00:35:59,719 Speaker 1: But that whole notion of the entertainment value of an 682 00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:03,319 Speaker 1: ass that is something new and pretty fascinating. I think 683 00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:07,080 Speaker 1: it's it's something new and and these things are very 684 00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:11,680 Speaker 1: community driven. And this is a community made up by 685 00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:15,719 Speaker 1: a bunch of programmers and researchers and tech misfits, and 686 00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:19,640 Speaker 1: so the weirder and more funny something can be, those 687 00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:23,120 Speaker 1: things become the flex. So in this world, you know, 688 00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:25,520 Speaker 1: if you show up at let's say DevCon. DevCon is 689 00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:28,680 Speaker 1: a conference that takes place every year minus the COVID year, 690 00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:31,359 Speaker 1: the COVID years, whatever this is going to be um, 691 00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:35,040 Speaker 1: a flex is not going to be showing up at 692 00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:37,960 Speaker 1: DevCon in a Porsche or a Ferrari. You know that 693 00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:41,480 Speaker 1: the to the Moon Lambeau meme had its place in time, 694 00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:43,480 Speaker 1: but that's not really what this is about. Now. If 695 00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:45,800 Speaker 1: someone were to show up at the next DevCon in 696 00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:49,040 Speaker 1: a two thousand seven Kia Sedona, I'm telling you they 697 00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:52,040 Speaker 1: will be. They will be the hero of that conference 698 00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:56,120 Speaker 1: at DevCon. At DevCon in Japan, someone brought the shiba 699 00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:59,120 Speaker 1: In Neu dog, the doge coin dog, and I think 700 00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:01,239 Speaker 1: it was either the school dog that the picture and 701 00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:03,239 Speaker 1: the meme was based on, or was the brother of 702 00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:07,320 Speaker 1: the sister. I can't remember. Everyone lost their minds and 703 00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:09,520 Speaker 1: had to walk out of the conference and get a 704 00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:12,200 Speaker 1: picture with this dog. So there's something fun about the 705 00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:15,680 Speaker 1: community and the culture that that intersects with these assets 706 00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:17,680 Speaker 1: that I think is is really special to be a 707 00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:21,480 Speaker 1: part of. Talk about a therapy puppy. There you go. Well, 708 00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:23,960 Speaker 1: we'll have to check the prices of the actual real 709 00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:27,400 Speaker 1: world Kia sedonas and see if they it'd be hilarious 710 00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:29,080 Speaker 1: if they start going up in value as well, for 711 00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:32,319 Speaker 1: for the same reason. Low two thousand's I've already I've 712 00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:37,320 Speaker 1: already checked. I thought about trying to buy one, just 713 00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:41,759 Speaker 1: just as a joke, but I didn't. That's hilarious. Well, listen, Brian, 714 00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:43,960 Speaker 1: I could talk about this for hours, but I think 715 00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:45,719 Speaker 1: we gotta leave it at that for this week. But 716 00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:47,520 Speaker 1: hopefully we can get you back some day and uh 717 00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:50,080 Speaker 1: and cover everything we've missed. Because there's as you said, 718 00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:52,680 Speaker 1: there's so much going on in this space that it 719 00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:54,480 Speaker 1: makes your head spin and trying to keep up with it. 720 00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:57,200 Speaker 1: But Brian Massov, thank you so much for your time, 721 00:37:57,400 --> 00:37:58,880 Speaker 1: thanks for having on the show, and hope to be 722 00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:02,279 Speaker 1: back soon with more Kia Sedona like stories plus the 723 00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:14,759 Speaker 1: legit stuff that's happening in the space What Goes Up. 724 00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:16,879 Speaker 1: We'll be back next week and something. You can find 725 00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:20,080 Speaker 1: us on the Bloomberg Terminal website and app or wherever 726 00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:22,560 Speaker 1: you get your podcast. Would love it if you took 727 00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:24,560 Speaker 1: the time to rate and review the show on Apple 728 00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:27,719 Speaker 1: podcast so more listeners can find us. And you can 729 00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:31,600 Speaker 1: find us on Twitter, follow me at Reaganonymous. Bildonna Hirich 730 00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:35,560 Speaker 1: is at Bildonna Hirich. You can also follow Bloomberg Podcasts 731 00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:39,239 Speaker 1: at podcasts. I thank you to Charlie Pelletta, Bloomberg Radio 732 00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:41,080 Speaker 1: and the voice of the New York City Subway System. 733 00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:44,640 Speaker 1: What Goes Up is produced by Tofur Foreheads. The head 734 00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:48,719 Speaker 1: of Bloomberg Podcasts is Francesco Leavy. Thanks for listening. See 735 00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:49,279 Speaker 1: you next time.