1 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:07,200 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:14,920 Speaker 2: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My 3 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:15,800 Speaker 2: name is Robert. 4 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:18,360 Speaker 3: Lamb and I am Joe McCormick, and we're back with 5 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:22,599 Speaker 3: part two in our discussion of burning hair. This topic 6 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:26,200 Speaker 3: was inspired by a personal experience for me. I actually 7 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:28,800 Speaker 3: singed a bunch of hair off my arm while grilling 8 00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:30,720 Speaker 3: at a family get together for the Fourth of July. 9 00:00:30,920 --> 00:00:32,839 Speaker 3: Not the first time I've done that while grilling for 10 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:36,519 Speaker 3: a crowd, and it got me thinking about what happens 11 00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:40,240 Speaker 3: when hair burns. So in the last episode, we talked 12 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:44,560 Speaker 3: about the distinctive and sometimes overpowering smell of burning hair, 13 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:47,559 Speaker 3: which seems to be mostly due to the presence of 14 00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:50,920 Speaker 3: sulfur compounds that are formed and released when hair burns, 15 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:55,000 Speaker 3: a chief one being sulfur dioxide, which is released when 16 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:58,680 Speaker 3: the keratin of hair is decomposed by fire. Sulfur dioxide 17 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:01,640 Speaker 3: is also a major part of the characteristic smell of 18 00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:05,120 Speaker 3: a burning matchhead. We also ended up talking about a 19 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:09,560 Speaker 3: couple of studies of hair catching on fire in space ships, 20 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:13,680 Speaker 3: specifically addressing the question of whether human hair is a 21 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 3: fire hazard in environments with higher levels of oxygen than 22 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:21,800 Speaker 3: Earth's atmosphere, and the answer seems to be yes. In 23 00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:25,720 Speaker 3: oxygen rich environments where things catch fire more easily because 24 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:29,119 Speaker 3: there's more oxygen, human hair can be a potent fuel 25 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:32,800 Speaker 3: source and fire can spread quickly over it. So these 26 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:36,360 Speaker 3: papers ended up talking about strategies to mitigate that risk 27 00:01:36,880 --> 00:01:41,160 Speaker 3: in future spacecraft and space habitation environments that might be 28 00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:44,320 Speaker 3: using elevated levels of oxygen. And then finally we talked 29 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:47,920 Speaker 3: about stories of the seventeenth and early eighteenth century English 30 00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:52,320 Speaker 3: pirate Edward Teach, better known as Blackbeard, who famously was 31 00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:55,840 Speaker 3: said to put burning slow matches under his hat, and 32 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:58,240 Speaker 3: he's drawn with like these slow matches and it kind 33 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 3: of fuses, sticking out alongside his hair. In some evolved 34 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:05,120 Speaker 3: versions of this legend, maybe he's said to have the 35 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:08,640 Speaker 3: burning slow matches in his hair or in his beard, 36 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:12,600 Speaker 3: And we discussed where these stories come from, how historically 37 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:16,200 Speaker 3: plausible they are, including considerations of the danger of catching 38 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:19,240 Speaker 3: one's own hair or beard on fire in general. 39 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:22,520 Speaker 2: In case you don't listen to that episode, don't try 40 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:25,400 Speaker 2: any of this at home. Don't set out to do 41 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 2: anything flammable with your beard or. 42 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:31,400 Speaker 3: Hair now, kind of Continuing on that theme, I ended 43 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:34,360 Speaker 3: up pursuing a research trail where I didn't turn up 44 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 3: quite as much as I expected to, but I at 45 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:39,160 Speaker 3: least want to report what I did come across. So 46 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 3: I had a vague idea from somewhere that the powdered 47 00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:48,480 Speaker 3: wigs that were popular in parts of Western Europe, especially 48 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:51,799 Speaker 3: in the eighteenth century, were prone to catching on fire. 49 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:55,760 Speaker 3: My impression here may have been formed by seeing older 50 00:02:55,800 --> 00:02:59,320 Speaker 3: illustrations of this, or like cartoons from the period that 51 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 3: show people with elaborate hair wigs and headdresses catching on 52 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:08,040 Speaker 3: fire due to a candle placed underneath them or something. Ultimately, 53 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:10,480 Speaker 3: I found less about this than I expected to, and 54 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 3: I can't tell if it was actually any more common 55 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 3: than regular instances of people catching their hair on fire, 56 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 3: which of course does happen occasionally here and there. But 57 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:21,800 Speaker 3: just to get into what it did come across, I 58 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:25,519 Speaker 3: found mentioned in a post on the British Library's Untold 59 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:27,959 Speaker 3: Lives blog, and I may have mentioned this on the 60 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:30,880 Speaker 3: show before, but generally I think the British Libraries have 61 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:34,359 Speaker 3: some great blogs and archives about history and some interesting 62 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:39,160 Speaker 3: documents in their collections. This post was by Julia Armfield 63 00:03:39,240 --> 00:03:44,160 Speaker 3: from August twenty thirteen, and it's a short post concerning 64 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:47,840 Speaker 3: how the elaborate wigs that had been so popular among 65 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:51,240 Speaker 3: the wealthy during the Georgian era, which was about seventeen 66 00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:55,320 Speaker 3: fourteen to eighteen thirty seven, these elaborate wigs began to 67 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:59,200 Speaker 3: fall out of fashion later on in that period and 68 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:01,600 Speaker 3: going into the Victiman period, they sort of fill out 69 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:04,880 Speaker 3: out of fashion after the French Revolution and then especially 70 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:08,560 Speaker 3: after the eighteen thirties. According to the author, this was 71 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:13,320 Speaker 3: in part because of changing social perceptions about wigs that 72 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:16,200 Speaker 3: they came to be seen not just as fashion, but 73 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:19,680 Speaker 3: in some cases as a kind of undesirable show of 74 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:24,520 Speaker 3: vanity or as a deception. Which is funny because I 75 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:27,680 Speaker 3: realized that even today there are like changes in how 76 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 3: you know, people are always like trying to affect their 77 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:33,680 Speaker 3: outward appearance. There's like, you know, there's hair care and 78 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 3: cosmetics and stuff like that in every era, and for 79 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:42,119 Speaker 3: some reason, you can look at someone trying to shape 80 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:43,920 Speaker 3: their appearance in a certain way and just say, well, 81 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 3: that's just fashion, but with just a different kind of 82 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:50,159 Speaker 3: emotional spin on it. You start to think of it 83 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:53,040 Speaker 3: as they're trying to look unreal. They're trying to look away. 84 00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:54,920 Speaker 3: They're not supposed to. Now it's a deception. 85 00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:58,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's interesting to think about. I guess the stigma 86 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:03,000 Speaker 2: against powdered wigs in particular has pretty much stuck. I think, yea. 87 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:05,599 Speaker 2: You know, there's certainly there's nothing wrong with wearing a 88 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:07,120 Speaker 2: wig or a hair piece. But if it is a 89 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 2: powdered wig or a hair piece like out of the 90 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:15,719 Speaker 2: period piece, broadly speaking, like, there's a certain air that 91 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:18,760 Speaker 2: comes with that. I guess there are probably some exceptions 92 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:21,440 Speaker 2: in the fashion world and so forth. 93 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:23,880 Speaker 3: Well, like why would wearing a wig be a deception? 94 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:26,800 Speaker 3: But like wearing clothes that cover your skin is not 95 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 3: a deception. 96 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:29,680 Speaker 2: I don't know, yeah, I mean, I guess on one level, 97 00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 2: someone could make the argument, well, the hair supposedly grows 98 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:34,840 Speaker 2: out of you. The hair is, of course, by its 99 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:37,719 Speaker 2: very nature, something you put on you. But I don't know, yeah, 100 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:41,160 Speaker 2: I mean, when you get down to it, why does 101 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:43,080 Speaker 2: it matter one way or the other. Anyway? 102 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:47,400 Speaker 3: This blog post mentions, in apart from changing social perceptions 103 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:52,599 Speaker 3: of wigs, that there were that there were practical problems 104 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:55,800 Speaker 3: presented by the wigs of the Georgian era. Including the 105 00:05:55,839 --> 00:05:58,720 Speaker 3: fact that some wigs were so huge and heavy that 106 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 3: they actually caused people wear, daring them to develop sores 107 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:06,440 Speaker 3: on their scalps. Another thing is infestation by insects or 108 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:11,239 Speaker 3: other unwanted gritters and parasites. Lice and fleas sometimes would 109 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:15,040 Speaker 3: get into wigs, and that's also sometimes held up as 110 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:18,600 Speaker 3: one reason for the popularity of wigs. Is that, well, 111 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:20,640 Speaker 3: maybe the lice will get into the wig instead of 112 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:22,800 Speaker 3: getting into your actual hair if you can cut your 113 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:25,600 Speaker 3: hair short or shave it, and then you know, they 114 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:27,599 Speaker 3: just get into the wig instead, But then you've got 115 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:31,080 Speaker 3: lice in your wig. I've read in separate places about 116 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:35,560 Speaker 3: mitigation strategies for this, including historical trends in wigs that 117 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:38,960 Speaker 3: would include built in lice or flea traps that would 118 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:41,560 Speaker 3: be some kind of container with like bait hidden inside 119 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:45,160 Speaker 3: the hair. But also this British Library post mentions that 120 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:49,279 Speaker 3: Georgian wigs would be flammable due to the presence of 121 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:53,960 Speaker 3: palmades made in large part out of animal fats such 122 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:58,200 Speaker 3: as hogs lard or mutton renderings. Of course, animal fat 123 00:06:58,240 --> 00:07:01,080 Speaker 3: can be quite combustible, and so if you're using that 124 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:03,520 Speaker 3: as the base of a kind of hair styling material 125 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:07,719 Speaker 3: or palmade that we would think of today to hold 126 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:10,760 Speaker 3: the wig, and in its styling shape, you can imagine 127 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:13,240 Speaker 3: there would be trouble, like you know, combine wigs gelled 128 00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:15,760 Speaker 3: up with animal fat and the use of candles as 129 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 3: a primary light source, and it just seems like it 130 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:22,440 Speaker 3: would be a recipe for wig fires. But I wasn't 131 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:25,400 Speaker 3: able to turn up a lot about this in like 132 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:29,160 Speaker 3: history books or academic articles about the history of wigs. 133 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 3: I did find another blog post. This one was on 134 00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:35,880 Speaker 3: a history blog called all Things Georgian by an author 135 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:39,280 Speaker 3: named Sarah Murden that managed to dig up a handful 136 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 3: of eighteenth century newspaper reports from England and Scotland of 137 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:47,880 Speaker 3: young women's wigs or headdresses catching on fire from a 138 00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:51,120 Speaker 3: candle or in one case I think, from a fireplace, 139 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:54,239 Speaker 3: and in a couple of cases leading to their deaths. 140 00:07:54,320 --> 00:07:57,800 Speaker 3: But again I did not find convincing evidence that this 141 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 3: was actually a like really common currents or anything. So, 142 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 3: you know, with candles everywhere and large smeared masses of 143 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:07,600 Speaker 3: hair bobbing around all over the place, it does seem 144 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:10,200 Speaker 3: plausible that this would happen a lot, But apart from 145 00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:12,040 Speaker 3: a few reports here and there. I'm not sure it 146 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:15,720 Speaker 3: actually did. Historians of wigs and hair, if you're aware 147 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 3: of something I'm not right in. 148 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:20,679 Speaker 2: Yeah, it is often weird to look back on times 149 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:23,800 Speaker 2: when candles were your main form of elimination. There were 150 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:27,960 Speaker 2: a lot more open fires and less in the way 151 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:31,240 Speaker 2: of fire safety, And on one level, you just kind 152 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:33,640 Speaker 2: of think, well, why wasn't everything on fire all the time? 153 00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:38,559 Speaker 2: And certainly fire was a huge threat. But yeah, I 154 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:41,160 Speaker 2: don't know. Maybe part of it is we sometimes don't 155 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:45,600 Speaker 2: give our ancestors enough credit for not catching everything on fire. 156 00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:48,640 Speaker 2: I don't know, we think of them as the way 157 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:50,960 Speaker 2: we might think of our own children if they're in 158 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:52,480 Speaker 2: the presence of an open flame. 159 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:56,199 Speaker 3: Well, I guess sometimes when we think about a historical 160 00:08:56,280 --> 00:09:01,280 Speaker 3: activity or apparatus that came with certain hazards, we imagine 161 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:05,959 Speaker 3: the prevalence, but without the accustomedness that would accompany prevalence. 162 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:08,040 Speaker 3: I mean, a world with lots of candles also had 163 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:10,240 Speaker 3: people who were used to handling candles. 164 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:24,520 Speaker 2: Yes, exactly. Now, at this point in the episode, we're 165 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:27,400 Speaker 2: going to get a little bit into hair of fire 166 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:30,960 Speaker 2: and flaming beards and so forth, and mythology and folklore 167 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:33,480 Speaker 2: and literature, and I have to admit this is an 168 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:35,760 Speaker 2: area where I thought we were going to have more 169 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:40,200 Speaker 2: to draw from. And certainly, you know, we probably left 170 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:43,480 Speaker 2: some things off. And certainly, as always right in and 171 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:46,000 Speaker 2: let us know if you have some great examples to 172 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:49,760 Speaker 2: bring to mind. But generally I was thinking, Okay, hair 173 00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:53,160 Speaker 2: can burn, and it's reasonable to assume that every fire 174 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:56,240 Speaker 2: bearing culture would have some experience with this that they 175 00:09:56,360 --> 00:10:02,440 Speaker 2: might further craft into various myths and legends, jokes, you know, 176 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:05,000 Speaker 2: terms of phrase and so forth. Right, I mean, you 177 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:08,040 Speaker 2: have fire, hair can catch on fire. Maybe it doesn't 178 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:10,280 Speaker 2: happen that often, but if it happens once, it's memorable. 179 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:13,760 Speaker 2: And therefore you might have some traditions. You might have 180 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:18,200 Speaker 2: some magical creatures, You might have some gods and goddesses 181 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:22,160 Speaker 2: that have flaming hair. And while this is true, we 182 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:26,160 Speaker 2: do have some examples to discuss, we didn't. I wasn't 183 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 2: able to find as many examples as I was expecting. 184 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:30,720 Speaker 2: I was expecting it to be just a long list 185 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:35,760 Speaker 2: of creatures and entities, but there's actually a lot of 186 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:38,520 Speaker 2: like bleed over into other categories that makes it difficult. 187 00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:42,000 Speaker 2: You know, like just characters with red hair or characters 188 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:44,120 Speaker 2: who have some sort of a halo or an ara. 189 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:47,960 Speaker 2: But then it's kind of left to exactly what languages 190 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:50,760 Speaker 2: used as to whether you would call this flaming hair. 191 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:53,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think there are a lot of examples that 192 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:57,440 Speaker 3: are arguable or edge cases, but I also was expecting 193 00:10:57,480 --> 00:10:59,880 Speaker 3: there just to be a lot more defined with the 194 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:02,120 Speaker 3: was just like, here's a figure with fire for hair. 195 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:06,880 Speaker 3: Maybe because I'm used to Hades from the Disney movie. 196 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:10,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, this is a great example to bring up. Yeah, 197 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:12,559 Speaker 2: the Greek god Hades in the nineteen ninety seven Hercules 198 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:17,080 Speaker 2: movie flaming blue hair, voiced by James Woods. He's not 199 00:11:17,559 --> 00:11:22,360 Speaker 2: actually a fire related deity in Greek mythology. This was 200 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:25,920 Speaker 2: just a visual choice by Disney that actually, I guess 201 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:28,959 Speaker 2: the exact alchemy of this is they're they're dragging in 202 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:34,480 Speaker 2: elements often associated generally with the Christian devil, you know, 203 00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:37,720 Speaker 2: fire and so forth, and creating this kind of like 204 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:42,079 Speaker 2: Haiti Satan combo for their their main villain and making 205 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:45,440 Speaker 2: like a very distinct visual choice on how to present him. 206 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:48,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like a combination so you associate the Christian 207 00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:52,480 Speaker 3: the Christian Satan with the lake of fire. I guess. 208 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:55,959 Speaker 3: So there's your fire element, but then you you've got 209 00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:58,640 Speaker 3: to have it like cold, sort of more like you 210 00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:02,200 Speaker 3: would get in Dante's Lower levels of Hell, or like 211 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:05,160 Speaker 3: you would get I think more often in Greek depictions 212 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:07,160 Speaker 3: of the underworld is just kind of like a cold, 213 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:10,679 Speaker 3: dark place. So they make the fire blue, which ironically 214 00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:12,640 Speaker 3: is actually the hottest color of flame. 215 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:18,040 Speaker 2: Right, So yeah, that's that's a that's a fun example 216 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:20,400 Speaker 2: to bring up. I mean, there's so many pop culture 217 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:21,840 Speaker 2: examples of this, and I think that's one of the 218 00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:25,960 Speaker 2: confusing things, is you. I mean, I would assume anyway 219 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:29,920 Speaker 2: that okay, we have characters like Captain Marvel and and 220 00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:33,800 Speaker 2: and so forth from Marvel comics, and and they have 221 00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:36,720 Speaker 2: like flaming hair at times, then this is perhaps just 222 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:40,040 Speaker 2: a more modern example of a longer health tradition. And 223 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:42,440 Speaker 2: then we're gonna have all these other examples and in 224 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:46,680 Speaker 2: all these different belief systems. But yeah, I found that 225 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:50,040 Speaker 2: you have certainly have no shortage of things like fire 226 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:55,560 Speaker 2: elementals in modern fiction and sci fi and fantasy, all 227 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:59,080 Speaker 2: sorts of creatures and spirits with flaming hair and flaming beards, 228 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:01,920 Speaker 2: but they're just these seem there's just seemed to be 229 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:04,559 Speaker 2: less of them when you actually look into folklore and 230 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:05,560 Speaker 2: mythology and legend. 231 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:08,400 Speaker 3: As far as the recent pop culture examples go. You 232 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:11,160 Speaker 3: brought up one in the notes that I didn't think of, 233 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:13,120 Speaker 3: which is the one from the Wall the movie. 234 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:17,040 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, this is the animated Pink Floyd movie, 235 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:20,240 Speaker 2: and uh, I believe it's Pink's wife and it is 236 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:23,800 Speaker 2: depicted later on as this kind of like monstrous cannibal 237 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:26,959 Speaker 2: creature with flaming hair, hair of literal fire. 238 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:29,360 Speaker 3: I've seen this movie, I mean a long time ago. 239 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:31,359 Speaker 3: I think I was in high school. But I completely 240 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 3: forgot about this. The main thing I remember is warning 241 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:36,920 Speaker 3: for a gross thing about the scene where he shaves 242 00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:37,680 Speaker 3: his nipple off. 243 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:41,880 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I forgot about that. How could you. I 244 00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:44,559 Speaker 2: mainly just remember the hammers like marching around, I. 245 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:46,920 Speaker 3: Guess, yeah, yeah, the fascist imagery. 246 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:48,960 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, it's been a long time since I've seen 247 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:50,040 Speaker 2: I think I saw it when I was a kid, 248 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:53,360 Speaker 2: and you know, on TV parts of it. Anyway, Ultimately, 249 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:56,520 Speaker 2: the examples of like fire elemental beings are too numerous 250 00:13:56,559 --> 00:13:59,319 Speaker 2: to mention, but I was reminded of that there's one 251 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:01,079 Speaker 2: in the Dark Crystal. So I picked up my copy 252 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:04,840 Speaker 2: of The Dark Crystal Bestiaria, and there's a description of 253 00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:07,880 Speaker 2: these things called the Firelings. And I believe these pop 254 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:13,800 Speaker 2: up in some of the like Dark Crystal Expanded Universe material, 255 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:15,880 Speaker 2: I guess, you know, in comic books and so forth. 256 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:17,360 Speaker 2: And I think maybe they were going to be a 257 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:22,120 Speaker 2: part of a possible film project that never came to fruition. 258 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:26,240 Speaker 2: But these are supposed to be direct descendants of Gelfling 259 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:29,560 Speaker 2: exiles who live in the superheated core of the planet Thraw, 260 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:33,640 Speaker 2: And they're depicted as Gelfling like beings, but they have 261 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 2: hair of fire. And even then, I found like a 262 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:41,320 Speaker 2: couple of different images that kind of portray different ideas 263 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:43,080 Speaker 2: of this. Like in one of them, you can see 264 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:46,800 Speaker 2: the Gelfling, or in this case, the filing has hair 265 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:49,640 Speaker 2: that is literal fire, and the others they just look 266 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:54,080 Speaker 2: like fiery, golden beings. And it's kind of left up 267 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 2: to your interpretation if their hair is just actual physical hair, 268 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 2: or if it is like the the chemical emergence, you know, 269 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 2: this this pyrotechnic experience of fire. I don't know. 270 00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:11,080 Speaker 3: I'm tempted to speculate that a lot of this modern 271 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 3: hair as fire imagery and cartoons and stuff specifically comes 272 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 3: from physical and visual similarities between hair and fire that emerge, 273 00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:26,880 Speaker 3: especially when they're being depicted in human drawing. That you know, 274 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:30,240 Speaker 3: the ways that you sort of represent say hair blowing 275 00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:32,640 Speaker 3: in the wind, or hair flowing in a like a 276 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 3: still painting or photo or still painting or drawing can 277 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:40,600 Speaker 3: very much resemble the kind of wisps of a fire, 278 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:45,000 Speaker 3: but oriented in the opposite direction. Often. Yeah, I don't know, 279 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:47,600 Speaker 3: and that's not a fully formed thought, but something almost 280 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:51,120 Speaker 3: makes me think that it's something about like modern drawing 281 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:55,240 Speaker 3: and animation traditions that give rise to seeing these things 282 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:58,600 Speaker 3: as visually similar and then inviting the mind to make 283 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:01,520 Speaker 3: a connection where it's not just that hair looks like fire, 284 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:04,000 Speaker 3: but you have a character with fire fore hair. 285 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:07,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I was definitely thinking a bit about like 286 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:12,120 Speaker 2: how hair appears when it is say, caught by the wind, 287 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:15,360 Speaker 2: or if one is underwater and you have like footage 288 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:17,400 Speaker 2: of someone with long hair and the hair is floating 289 00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:20,120 Speaker 2: and so forth, And if that has anything to do 290 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:21,840 Speaker 2: with I mean that, you know, you could sort of 291 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:25,960 Speaker 2: link it to the to the history of underwater the 292 00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:28,120 Speaker 2: underwater moving picture, which of course isn't going to go 293 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:32,480 Speaker 2: back that far, and you could perhaps, I guess, arguably 294 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 2: enhance comparisons that would be made in general, because of 295 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:38,600 Speaker 2: course there are always going to be comparisons made between 296 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:43,480 Speaker 2: you know, reddish hair and fire. You can factor in 297 00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:49,000 Speaker 2: things like you know, length and texture as well. But 298 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:51,760 Speaker 2: we you know, at the end of the day, we 299 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:55,480 Speaker 2: do have at least a few examples of creatures and 300 00:16:55,680 --> 00:16:58,560 Speaker 2: entities that I feel like are close enough that we 301 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:01,600 Speaker 2: can say, okay, we can quibble about the details, but 302 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:04,560 Speaker 2: these creatures kind of sound like they have fire for hair. 303 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:05,960 Speaker 3: Okay, what'd you come up with? 304 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:09,080 Speaker 2: Now? A couple of these are from South America. One 305 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:12,680 Speaker 2: is called the Kuma Conga, and this is a disembodied 306 00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:16,720 Speaker 2: head spirit of Brazilian folklore that I was reading about 307 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:21,240 Speaker 2: in The Werewolf in between Indians and Whites. This is 308 00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:25,240 Speaker 2: by Mark Harris, and this was published in t PTE, 309 00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:29,800 Speaker 2: Journal of the Society for the Anthropology of Lowland South America. 310 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:34,080 Speaker 2: And in this article, Harris describes this entity as entailing 311 00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:36,280 Speaker 2: aspects of what we might think of as a werewolf, 312 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:40,520 Speaker 2: you know, in Western folklore especially as well as sightings 313 00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:45,439 Speaker 2: of balls or wheels of fire. So that's another thing 314 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:47,600 Speaker 2: I saw several examples of. It's like you have sort 315 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:50,000 Speaker 2: of like fire entities, kind of will of the wisp 316 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:53,480 Speaker 2: sort of entities, and it depends on how far you 317 00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:56,960 Speaker 2: push that from being like a mere strange light to 318 00:17:57,160 --> 00:18:01,679 Speaker 2: being a flaming entity or a flaming head or something 319 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:04,960 Speaker 2: with physiology to it. Now, another one that I've run 320 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 2: across was the Kurapura. I've seen descriptions of this spirit 321 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:14,280 Speaker 2: from Tupequar knee traditions of Brazil, entailing a beard of fire, 322 00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:17,600 Speaker 2: though Carol Rose doesn't mention this. In her entry on 323 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:20,840 Speaker 2: the creature in the book Spirits, Fairies, Leprechaus and Goblins 324 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:24,760 Speaker 2: and Encyclopedia, she describes it as a bright, red faced 325 00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:28,320 Speaker 2: gnome with cloven hoofs, as well as a shaggy creature 326 00:18:28,359 --> 00:18:31,800 Speaker 2: with backward turned feet. It's kind of a forest guardian 327 00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:36,360 Speaker 2: of game. Then there's also an Afro Brazilian tradition of 328 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:40,560 Speaker 2: the Kurapira that casts everything more as a will of 329 00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:42,920 Speaker 2: the wisp that leads people off track in the forest, 330 00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:47,640 Speaker 2: but maybe sort of bribe with offerings. But I've seen 331 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:50,639 Speaker 2: some more recent articles that mention either red hair or 332 00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:55,240 Speaker 2: hair of fire. So I can't completely dispute that idea, 333 00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:58,000 Speaker 2: but again, it seems like we often run into this 334 00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:00,919 Speaker 2: territory of there's probably some linguistic drift in some of 335 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:05,399 Speaker 2: these descriptions, you know, especially when you're dealing with multiple translations, 336 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:08,959 Speaker 2: So hard for me to tell any way exactly like 337 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:12,800 Speaker 2: what the tradition actually is. Are we dealing with creatures 338 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:15,720 Speaker 2: that are thought to have hair of fire or does 339 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:18,879 Speaker 2: that just sort of get added on somewhere in the chain. 340 00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:22,440 Speaker 3: Or I think, especially the further back you go in history, 341 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:25,400 Speaker 3: just to kind of blending of the concepts of light 342 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:29,320 Speaker 3: and fire, that in many cases any light source that 343 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:33,040 Speaker 3: didn't come from the sky or whatever could be described 344 00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:34,040 Speaker 3: as a fire. 345 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:36,679 Speaker 2: Right right, Yeah, if you see a strange light in 346 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:40,000 Speaker 2: the forest, for example, or in the sky, and it 347 00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:43,919 Speaker 2: is of sufficient luminosity, like it's very reasonable to say, oh, 348 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:45,439 Speaker 2: there was some sort of fire out there, there was 349 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:47,359 Speaker 2: some sort of Yeah, what else could it be? If 350 00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:50,320 Speaker 2: it's like above, if it's not the moon, if it's 351 00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:52,840 Speaker 2: not a you know, something that is obviously celestial, and 352 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:55,399 Speaker 2: it's not something that is like a firefly, then you 353 00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:58,560 Speaker 2: might reasonably think in terms of candles and torches and 354 00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:02,880 Speaker 2: so forth. I also reminded of a fireball yo kai 355 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:05,200 Speaker 2: from Japanese traditions. I think we may have talked about 356 00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:08,600 Speaker 2: this one before and name Ubagabi, and this is more 357 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:11,520 Speaker 2: of a fireball, but with the face of an old man. 358 00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:14,720 Speaker 2: And I guess if it is an old man's face, 359 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:17,440 Speaker 2: then you could say, well, the hair is fire, but 360 00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:20,239 Speaker 2: maybe not. Maybe that's adding too much on, you know. 361 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:25,760 Speaker 2: I've also seen some ideas about Loki from Norse mythology 362 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:30,920 Speaker 2: having hair of fire or flame hair. This I didn't 363 00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:33,720 Speaker 2: get a real strong feeling off of this either. Hair 364 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:37,040 Speaker 2: with these two can get kind of complicated, and in general, 365 00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:41,080 Speaker 2: our sort of understanding of them are kind of, you know, 366 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:45,280 Speaker 2: influenced by Marvel comics now, but you know, Thor sometimes 367 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:47,960 Speaker 2: had red hair and a red beard, and Loki is 368 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:52,400 Speaker 2: sometimes depicted with red hair, sometimes arguably resembling a flame. 369 00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:55,560 Speaker 2: And this is where I've seen various commentators, you know, 370 00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:58,439 Speaker 2: pointing out this idea that Loki may be connected to 371 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:02,520 Speaker 2: the word Logi, which means flame, but is also the 372 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:07,280 Speaker 2: name of one of the otin who personified fire. So 373 00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:10,639 Speaker 2: again I don't know there's that you could make a case. 374 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:14,159 Speaker 2: I guess that sometimes Loki was perhaps a fire headed god, 375 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:18,280 Speaker 2: but maybe not. Now one of the stronger cases I 376 00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:21,280 Speaker 2: came across is there's an Armenian warrior god by the 377 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:25,960 Speaker 2: name of Vaughan, the Dragon Reaper, who apparently is more 378 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 2: traditionally described as having celestial fire for hair, a beard 379 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:34,880 Speaker 2: of flames, and eyes like suns. So this one would 380 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:39,080 Speaker 2: seem a stronger example. Though it is interesting here too 381 00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:41,639 Speaker 2: that we're getting into like celestial fire here in this 382 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:44,439 Speaker 2: idea of like a holy flame that doesn't necessarily behave 383 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:47,080 Speaker 2: like a real flame, and is also kind of like 384 00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:50,800 Speaker 2: a halo, kind of like a holy aura. But I 385 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:53,760 Speaker 2: feel like this guy, you can make a stronger case 386 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:56,320 Speaker 2: and say, Okay, this guy has has fire for hair. 387 00:21:56,840 --> 00:22:01,679 Speaker 3: So I was not initially familiar with the dragon Reaper, 388 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:05,760 Speaker 3: but the Dragon Reaper apparently is like a that's a 389 00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:09,359 Speaker 3: translation of a traditional epithet. But that's it's amazing how 390 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:12,440 Speaker 3: much that sounds like modern cool. It sounds like something 391 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:13,440 Speaker 3: out of a video game. 392 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:15,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, this is this is old school cool right here. 393 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:19,359 Speaker 2: It makes me think I really need to get into 394 00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:23,399 Speaker 2: Armenian mythology more I really don't know much about about 395 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:26,360 Speaker 2: Armenian myth and lore, but if this is any indication 396 00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:29,960 Speaker 2: that they have warriors with flaming hair that slay dragons, 397 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:32,240 Speaker 2: then I want to know more about it. Now, there 398 00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:36,719 Speaker 2: are a lot of additional possible examples in Buddhist iconography 399 00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:41,199 Speaker 2: and Hindu iconography where you have things like hair of 400 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:45,719 Speaker 2: fire going on. But also again sometimes it's maybe more 401 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:49,200 Speaker 2: akin to a halo or an aura or multiple auras. 402 00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:52,199 Speaker 2: And of course there's often a lot of information that 403 00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 2: is being relayed through these these religious images. But for instance, 404 00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:02,199 Speaker 2: the tantric Buddhist Paul den Momo is sometimes depicted with 405 00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:05,280 Speaker 2: hair of flame. The Hindu got Agny is sometimes depicted 406 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:09,160 Speaker 2: with hair of fire two varying degrees, but sometimes it's 407 00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:12,119 Speaker 2: more of an aura of flame. So again there's going 408 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:13,879 Speaker 2: to be a lot of drift here, and a lot 409 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:26,760 Speaker 2: of it is going to be left to personal interpretation. Now. 410 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:28,840 Speaker 2: One of the more interesting things to discuss, though, really 411 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:31,280 Speaker 2: gets us more I guess into the literature end of 412 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:35,160 Speaker 2: the spectrum, getting into Latin literature here, but are there's 413 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:38,280 Speaker 2: not one, but there are two instances in Virgils and 414 00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:42,320 Speaker 2: Enid concerning omens of burning hair and or hair that 415 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:47,520 Speaker 2: becomes or is surrounded by a holy fire. M okay, 416 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:50,520 Speaker 2: So virgils Ineid has come up on the show before, 417 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:53,040 Speaker 2: but I thought we should maybe take a moment just 418 00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:56,240 Speaker 2: to ground it properly and talk about what it is. So. 419 00:23:56,480 --> 00:24:00,400 Speaker 2: Virgil was a Roman poet who lived seventy BCE through 420 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:05,480 Speaker 2: nineteen BCE and served Emperor Augustus. He composed the epic 421 00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:09,280 Speaker 2: poem The Aenead between twenty nine and nineteen BCE as 422 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:13,080 Speaker 2: an attempt to ground Rome, the Roman people, and the 423 00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:17,600 Speaker 2: rule of his boss Augustus within a deeper mythopoetic tradition, 424 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:21,440 Speaker 2: because while Romans he certainly had epics such as Homer's 425 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:25,280 Speaker 2: the Iliad and the Odyssey, they lacked for a true 426 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:30,560 Speaker 2: national epic and a true founding work of mythic literature. 427 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:32,919 Speaker 2: So that's what Virgil had set out to do, to 428 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:36,119 Speaker 2: create one, spinning a saga out of Greek myth and 429 00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:40,000 Speaker 2: the epics of Homer into a Roman history. Now, Virgil 430 00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:42,840 Speaker 2: died at the young age of fifty, possibly due to 431 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:45,359 Speaker 2: complications from heatstroke. I think maybe there's some back and 432 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:48,119 Speaker 2: forth over this, but sometimes I see it rather matter 433 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:50,359 Speaker 2: of factly said that it was probably heat stroke. But 434 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:54,800 Speaker 2: he dies, and as he is dying, he requests this 435 00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:57,760 Speaker 2: unpublished and unfinished epic to be destroyed. He's like, it's 436 00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:00,680 Speaker 2: not ready yet, I just get rid of it. Please 437 00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:06,640 Speaker 2: destroy it. His orders are not obeyed, though, and Augustus 438 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:09,600 Speaker 2: having been exposed to some very flattering passages of the 439 00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:13,880 Speaker 2: epic in which the hero, the hero of the tale, 440 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:18,080 Speaker 2: mirrors and predicts the rise of Augustus, he says, now, 441 00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:20,840 Speaker 2: this work is great. Please make sure that it is published. 442 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:24,400 Speaker 2: And then it is published. And as we'll get into, 443 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:28,400 Speaker 2: maybe not every passage of the ania is as flattering 444 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:31,160 Speaker 2: as those that Augustus initially heard. 445 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:35,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, So for more context on Virgil, by the way, 446 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:37,000 Speaker 3: I just wanted to say we did talk about him 447 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:39,160 Speaker 3: a good bit in our episode a few years back 448 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:43,359 Speaker 3: on insect funerals, because there is an apocryphal legend in 449 00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:46,800 Speaker 3: which Virgil and his friends held an elaborate funeral for 450 00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:51,360 Speaker 3: a fly. I think we concluded that this probably did 451 00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:54,480 Speaker 3: not actually happen, but the story arose like within the 452 00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:57,720 Speaker 3: logic of the story, it's something like they're using it 453 00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:01,600 Speaker 3: as a legal loophole to protect a state from being seized. 454 00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:04,840 Speaker 3: But also in that episode, we talked about how Dante, 455 00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:08,240 Speaker 3: the author of The Divine Comedy, thought Virgil was just 456 00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:11,159 Speaker 3: like the coolest guy ever and the best example of 457 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:14,080 Speaker 3: poetic virtues, which is why he uses him as the 458 00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:18,640 Speaker 3: virtuous pagan character who guides his fictionalized tour of Hell. 459 00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:23,240 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely, And ultimately that's where I've certainly more 460 00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:26,639 Speaker 2: read on the Divine Comedy than I am on the 461 00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:28,720 Speaker 2: actual works of Virgil. But you end up learning about 462 00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:31,919 Speaker 2: Virgil and his works through Dante, like you end up 463 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:35,840 Speaker 2: learning about everything that Dante's into as you travel with 464 00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:37,240 Speaker 2: him across the Three Realms. 465 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:38,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, Virgil's really great. 466 00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:39,359 Speaker 2: Did you know this? 467 00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:41,440 Speaker 3: Beatrice is really great too. 468 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:45,960 Speaker 2: Not only is Virgil really great, but we're basically best friends. 469 00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:49,920 Speaker 3: Now, Yeah, he liked me. Yeah. 470 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:54,719 Speaker 2: So The Eneid is the story of Aneas, who flees 471 00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:58,320 Speaker 2: the destruction of Troy and ultimately conquers Italy to become 472 00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:02,040 Speaker 2: the ancestor of the Romans. The first six books of 473 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:06,159 Speaker 2: this epic cover his journey to Italy, but it's not 474 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:08,600 Speaker 2: like a direct journey, like there's a joint through the underworld, 475 00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:11,719 Speaker 2: for example, and that's key as an influence on Dante 476 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:15,120 Speaker 2: and then books seven through twelve if the Aeneid concerned 477 00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:17,760 Speaker 2: the wars in Italy, so the first book is a 478 00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:19,920 Speaker 2: road trip, very much in the spirit of the Odyssey, 479 00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:22,479 Speaker 2: and the second book is very much in the spirit 480 00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:26,840 Speaker 2: of the Iliad, because it's concerned mostly with this big war. Now, 481 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:29,159 Speaker 2: to be clear, this in this treatment in others, the 482 00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:34,159 Speaker 2: founding of Rome and the Roman people is greatly embellished 483 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:36,200 Speaker 2: by myth and literature. I mean, that's again, that's kind 484 00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:38,360 Speaker 2: of basically what Virgil set out to do. 485 00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:42,480 Speaker 3: Right. Virgil is not like Herodotus or Thucydides, people in 486 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:44,919 Speaker 3: the ancient world who were to some extent concerned with 487 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:49,040 Speaker 3: trying to create an accurate historical record of events. He's like, 488 00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:54,360 Speaker 3: he's telling a good story and it has a political agenda. 489 00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:58,399 Speaker 2: Right, And that political agenda does, in very strong terms 490 00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:02,480 Speaker 2: concern Augustus. But while Augustus had again heard very apparently 491 00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:04,800 Speaker 2: heard very flattering parts of the work prior to publication, 492 00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:07,159 Speaker 2: it's thought that he might not have heard all of it, 493 00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:11,520 Speaker 2: because there are parts of the work that also cast Augustus, 494 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:14,840 Speaker 2: or at least his his analog aneas, in a more 495 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:17,920 Speaker 2: flawed light. You know and idea is that his ascension 496 00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:22,320 Speaker 2: and long term legacy are not completely assured. And we'll 497 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:24,760 Speaker 2: get into some examples of that as we go, but 498 00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:27,119 Speaker 2: any rate, it's it's a book that's very concerned with 499 00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:31,280 Speaker 2: prophesizing the future of Rome, mostly saying great things are ahead, 500 00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:34,520 Speaker 2: but sometimes with little caveats like bringing up probably great 501 00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:36,480 Speaker 2: things are ahead, but watch watch out for this or that. 502 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:39,280 Speaker 2: Right And at the end of book two we have 503 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:43,720 Speaker 2: the omen of Ascanius is burning hair. So Ascanius, who's 504 00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:47,280 Speaker 2: also believed called LULUs at times, he's like a little boy. 505 00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:49,400 Speaker 2: At this point point, he is the he is the 506 00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:53,960 Speaker 2: son of Aneas, he's eventually going to become the king 507 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:59,120 Speaker 2: of the Latin city state of Alva Longa, and is 508 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:01,640 Speaker 2: in this respect he's you know, he can kind of 509 00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:03,560 Speaker 2: loop him in as being one of the founders of 510 00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:07,400 Speaker 2: the Roman race. But again, his father Anias is this 511 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:11,400 Speaker 2: position as an ancestor of Romulus and Remus. He's the 512 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:14,680 Speaker 2: hero of Troy. He's fled the burning city of Troy 513 00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:18,760 Speaker 2: with his son after receiving he after he receives this 514 00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:22,640 Speaker 2: omen of the burning hair from the god Jupiter. So 515 00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:26,760 Speaker 2: his son's hair catches a flame, and there's you know, 516 00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:30,600 Speaker 2: some back and forth over this, and and and and 517 00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:33,200 Speaker 2: it becomes like it's like a divine flame, a sort 518 00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 2: of soft, harmless fire that is around his brow like 519 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:40,360 Speaker 2: a crown. So even here we have some there's some 520 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:42,720 Speaker 2: room to interpret it. You can think of it as 521 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:46,000 Speaker 2: a like a crown of flame, hair of flame, halo ara, 522 00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:46,920 Speaker 2: and so forth. 523 00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:50,880 Speaker 3: So his son's head appears with flame on it, and 524 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:54,320 Speaker 3: this seems to be delivering a message from the gods. 525 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:56,440 Speaker 2: Right, But of course he's not completely sure. So he's like, 526 00:29:56,640 --> 00:30:00,400 Speaker 2: you know, mighty Jupiter, if this is a sign, give 527 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:02,600 Speaker 2: me another one. And so there's like a shooting star, 528 00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:07,560 Speaker 2: and Virgil, you know, has a lot of fun with 529 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:12,760 Speaker 2: this poetically comparing the two. But you know, so ultimately 530 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:15,200 Speaker 2: we also have the connection here to the burning city 531 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:17,480 Speaker 2: that they are now going to have to escape. But 532 00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:21,800 Speaker 2: it's a great omen a signifier of deliverance, you know. 533 00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:23,920 Speaker 2: And again their direct comparisons to be made between the 534 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:28,600 Speaker 2: tail the shooting star and a flaming arrow. And again 535 00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:30,280 Speaker 2: there's this idea that y'all got to get out of 536 00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:33,800 Speaker 2: here and go on to great things, in other words, 537 00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:38,200 Speaker 2: the founding of Rome, and so forth Anna Rogerson in 538 00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:43,320 Speaker 2: twenty seventeen's Virgils Zoscanius writes that this episode illuminates quote 539 00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:46,240 Speaker 2: the path that must be taken in order ultimately to 540 00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:49,920 Speaker 2: achieve the Roman dream, but she also stresses that the 541 00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:54,520 Speaker 2: fire also carries with it other associations quote, hinting at 542 00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:58,320 Speaker 2: different potential outcomes and reminding us again that his role 543 00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:02,239 Speaker 2: as a sign and are of a Roman future is 544 00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:05,280 Speaker 2: not as secure or as patent as it might seem. 545 00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:08,440 Speaker 3: Oh, that's interesting, especially if I'm interpreting this right. I 546 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:10,760 Speaker 3: don't know at all if this is what Rogerson is 547 00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:14,280 Speaker 3: getting at, But the idea of like a fire appearing 548 00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:17,920 Speaker 3: around his son's brow could have it. On one hand, 549 00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:21,640 Speaker 3: it could resemble this imagery like halo imagery that we 550 00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:23,440 Speaker 3: see in other cases, where it's sort of like an 551 00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:26,720 Speaker 3: anointing by the gods or a showing of divine favor 552 00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:29,520 Speaker 3: light showing around the head, and I'll mention another example 553 00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:32,200 Speaker 3: of that in a minute. But also the idea of 554 00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:35,760 Speaker 3: fire appearing around the child's head has the has the 555 00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:38,880 Speaker 3: connotations of danger, right, and so it's like both at 556 00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:40,760 Speaker 3: the same time. Do you think that's at all what 557 00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:41,920 Speaker 3: Rogerson is getting at. 558 00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:43,880 Speaker 2: Here that that I believe that. I believe that's that's 559 00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:46,920 Speaker 2: what they're getting at here, And and it does match 560 00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:49,200 Speaker 2: up with with other arguments I've seen, you know that 561 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:52,440 Speaker 2: that that Virgil is of course talking about the greatness 562 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:54,959 Speaker 2: of Rome and the greatness of his boss, but also 563 00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:58,640 Speaker 2: adding in these warnings and hints, you know, these uh, 564 00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:01,440 Speaker 2: you know, speaking speaking truth to power at least a 565 00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:06,479 Speaker 2: little bit through the poetry. Interesting, So, Ascanius and his 566 00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:10,800 Speaker 2: father flee Troy, with Aneas carrying his own elderly father 567 00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:13,480 Speaker 2: on his back. There are some great depictions of this, 568 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:16,880 Speaker 2: you have, like a cross generational trio escaping the burning city. 569 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:20,040 Speaker 2: And so there are all various images where you'll have 570 00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:25,000 Speaker 2: Aneas with this older man, huge older man on his shoulders, 571 00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:27,880 Speaker 2: kind of piggyback style, and then here's the young in 572 00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:30,720 Speaker 2: behind him, kind of like tugging on his clothing a 573 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:33,600 Speaker 2: little bit like Dad, are we there yet? Have we 574 00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:37,520 Speaker 2: founded Rome yet? And so forth. Now, later on in 575 00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:42,240 Speaker 2: book seven, Aneas's last wife, Lavinia, she has an episode 576 00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:43,640 Speaker 2: with burning hair as well. I told you there was 577 00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:46,200 Speaker 2: going to be a second one. Her hair catches fire 578 00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:50,160 Speaker 2: during a sacrifice at the altar of the gods. And 579 00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:52,160 Speaker 2: I'm going to read a bit here. This is in 580 00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:55,480 Speaker 2: a translation, of course, from the Aeneid. While the old 581 00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:58,760 Speaker 2: king lit fires at the altars with a pure torch, 582 00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:02,479 Speaker 2: the girl Lavinia with him. It seemed her long hair caught, 583 00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:07,080 Speaker 2: her head dress caught in crackling flame, her queenly tresses blazed, 584 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:11,880 Speaker 2: her jeweled crown blazed, mantled, Then in smoke and russet light, 585 00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:15,720 Speaker 2: she scattered divine fire throughout all the house. No one 586 00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:19,600 Speaker 2: could hold that site anything but hair raising marvelous. And 587 00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:22,440 Speaker 2: it was read by Sears to mean the girl would 588 00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:25,800 Speaker 2: have renown in glorious days to come, but that she 589 00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:28,600 Speaker 2: brought a great war on her people. And I was 590 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:33,040 Speaker 2: reading about interpretation of this by John E. Rexen from 591 00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:37,000 Speaker 2: nineteen sixty one in fire Symbolism in the Eneid, and 592 00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:41,840 Speaker 2: this author wrote, these flames presented both destructive and constructive aspects. 593 00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:45,600 Speaker 2: Laviniu's people would be involved in the conflagration of war 594 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:48,120 Speaker 2: with the Trojans, but a marriage torch would unite her 595 00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:51,360 Speaker 2: with Eneas, who had found a new city in Italy 596 00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:54,080 Speaker 2: named Lavinium after her Ah. 597 00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:56,840 Speaker 3: So it's almost that same duality we interpreted with the 598 00:33:57,320 --> 00:33:59,360 Speaker 3: crown of fire around Buscanius's head. 599 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:02,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And I think it's really it's really potent 600 00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:05,960 Speaker 2: when you think about it, Like the idea of any 601 00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:10,120 Speaker 2: divine being giving you messages and laying out your course 602 00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:14,680 Speaker 2: for you, you know, making sure that you're walking, you know, 603 00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:18,640 Speaker 2: a conditioned path like that's at both powerful but also 604 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:22,839 Speaker 2: terrifying because in all these various traditions, you know, we 605 00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:26,000 Speaker 2: know what sorts of fates the gods sometimes lay in 606 00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:30,120 Speaker 2: front of our heroes and heroines. You know, it's not 607 00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:33,800 Speaker 2: all it's not all roses. Sometimes there is a burning 608 00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:34,800 Speaker 2: city and so forth. 609 00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:39,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, So this actually connected for me to something that 610 00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:42,680 Speaker 3: is in the Iliad itself. We talked about how Virgil 611 00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:47,040 Speaker 3: he bases his epic in part on the epics of Homer, 612 00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:50,359 Speaker 3: But this came up a few years back when we 613 00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:53,440 Speaker 3: did episodes on the religious imagery of the Halo. You 614 00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:55,959 Speaker 3: can look up those older episodes if you want. There's 615 00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:58,880 Speaker 3: a good bit of overlap with what we're talking about today. Actually, 616 00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:03,160 Speaker 3: but this specific connection with the Iliad comes in book eighteen. 617 00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:06,560 Speaker 3: So I was thinking about the passage where the great 618 00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:11,080 Speaker 3: warrior Achilles he finds out that his bosom companion a Patroclus, 619 00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:14,360 Speaker 3: has been killed in battle by the Trojan prince Hector, 620 00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:18,440 Speaker 3: and Achilles reacts sort of by like losing his mind. 621 00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:21,640 Speaker 3: He's filled with grief and rage and a thirst for vengeance. 622 00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:24,960 Speaker 3: And so the Greeks and the Trojans in this part 623 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:27,920 Speaker 3: of the poem are fighting over the right to retrieve 624 00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:31,400 Speaker 3: Petroclus's body from the field of battle. And then the 625 00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:36,040 Speaker 3: goddess Athena puts this godlike power and aura into Achilles 626 00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:38,759 Speaker 3: so that he will be able to terrify the Trojans 627 00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:41,520 Speaker 3: and drive them into a route. And so this is 628 00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:47,280 Speaker 3: from the translation by Caroline Alexander. Achilles, beloved of Zeus, arose, 629 00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:51,239 Speaker 3: and Athena casts the tasseled aegis about his mighty shoulders. 630 00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:55,440 Speaker 3: She shining among goddesses, encircled round his head a cloud 631 00:35:55,480 --> 00:36:00,360 Speaker 3: of gold, and from it blazed bright, shining fire. Okay, 632 00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:03,200 Speaker 3: so maybe a little bit different. Maybe not hair directly 633 00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:05,200 Speaker 3: on fire, but a cloud of gold around the head 634 00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:08,560 Speaker 3: from which blazes bright fire. It goes on to say, 635 00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:12,160 Speaker 3: and as when smoke rising from a city reaches the 636 00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:15,880 Speaker 3: clear high air from a distant island, which enemy men 637 00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:18,920 Speaker 3: fight round, and they the whole day long are pitted 638 00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:22,560 Speaker 3: in hateful warfare around the city walls. But with the 639 00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:27,080 Speaker 3: sun's setting, the beacon fires blaze torch upon torch, and 640 00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:31,000 Speaker 3: flaring upward, the glare becomes visible to those who live around, 641 00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:33,560 Speaker 3: in the hope that they might come with ships as 642 00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:38,240 Speaker 3: allies against destruction. So from Achilles' head the radiance reached 643 00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:41,600 Speaker 3: the clear high air, and going away from the wall, 644 00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:44,279 Speaker 3: he stood at the ditch. Nor did he mix with 645 00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:48,359 Speaker 3: the Achaeans, for he observed his mother's knowing command, and 646 00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:52,200 Speaker 3: standing there he shouted, and from the distance Pallas Athena 647 00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:55,960 Speaker 3: cried out. Too unspeakable was the uproar he incited in 648 00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:59,640 Speaker 3: the Trojans, as when a clarion voice is heard, when 649 00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:03,120 Speaker 3: cry the trumpet of life, destroying enemies who surround a city. 650 00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:07,520 Speaker 3: Such then was the clarion voice of Eacides. And when 651 00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:10,759 Speaker 3: they heard the brazen voice of Eacides, the spirit in 652 00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:14,279 Speaker 3: each man was thrown in turmoil. The horses, with their 653 00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:18,120 Speaker 3: fine manes, wheeled their chariots back, for in their hearts 654 00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:22,080 Speaker 3: they forebode distress to come. And the charioteers were struck 655 00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:25,600 Speaker 3: from their senses when they saw the weariless terrible fire 656 00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:29,799 Speaker 3: above the head of Pilius's great hearted son blazing. And 657 00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:35,000 Speaker 3: this the gleaming eyed goddess Athena caused to blaze. So 658 00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:38,080 Speaker 3: again it's sort of an edge case because it doesn't 659 00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:41,000 Speaker 3: say directly the hair is on fire, in that it's 660 00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:45,040 Speaker 3: literally being consumed by flame. But it's this more common 661 00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:48,440 Speaker 3: imagery we get of a radiance that appears around or 662 00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:51,399 Speaker 3: over the top of the head and is described as 663 00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:55,920 Speaker 3: burning like fire, or burning like his hair were on fire. 664 00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:59,280 Speaker 3: And in fact it come back more towards Virgil's time period, 665 00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:02,200 Speaker 3: the context of the early Roman Empire. You can think 666 00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:05,439 Speaker 3: of cases of imagery like this that appear in say 667 00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:08,440 Speaker 3: the Christian New Testament. So in the New Testament, in 668 00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:11,240 Speaker 3: the Book of Acts, chapter two, we get the story 669 00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:14,400 Speaker 3: of the Pentecost, which is the anointing by the Holy 670 00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:19,040 Speaker 3: Spirit of Jesus's apostles in Jerusalem, fifty days after the 671 00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:23,880 Speaker 3: Resurrection has taken place. And this part says that in 672 00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:27,800 Speaker 3: the NRSV translation quote, when the day of Pentecost had come, 673 00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:30,799 Speaker 3: they were all together in one place, and suddenly from 674 00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:33,000 Speaker 3: heaven there came a sound like the rush of a 675 00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:36,160 Speaker 3: violent wind, and it filled the entire house where they 676 00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:40,279 Speaker 3: were sitting, divided tongues as of fire appeared among them, 677 00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:43,400 Speaker 3: and a tongue rested on each of them. All of 678 00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:45,799 Speaker 3: them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to 679 00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:49,560 Speaker 3: speak in other languages as the spirit gave them the ability. 680 00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:53,400 Speaker 3: So in this case it does not seem intended to 681 00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:56,399 Speaker 3: terrify like it did in the Iliad. But what's sort 682 00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:59,919 Speaker 3: of common in all these stories across the Eneid by Verge, 683 00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:04,040 Speaker 3: across the Iliad, and across the New Testament is the 684 00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:06,960 Speaker 3: appearance of fire or radiance above the crown of a 685 00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:10,560 Speaker 3: human head to show in some way that God or 686 00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:14,000 Speaker 3: the gods have intervened on behalf of this person, either 687 00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:17,439 Speaker 3: to make them powerful in battle, to give them new 688 00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:21,319 Speaker 3: powers of speech or understanding, or to show a kind 689 00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:24,319 Speaker 3: of prophecy about them, to mark them as destined in 690 00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:24,879 Speaker 3: some way. 691 00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:28,640 Speaker 2: And then, yeah, you can imagine there's some cross over here. Certainly, 692 00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:31,200 Speaker 2: we can look to various examples from the Bible too, 693 00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:34,239 Speaker 2: where there's you know, people are in flames but they're 694 00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:38,160 Speaker 2: not hurt, or God speaking through the fire, the burning 695 00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:41,319 Speaker 2: bush and so forth. So yeah, well, once you have 696 00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:43,839 Speaker 2: these images out there, they kind of they do kind 697 00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:46,000 Speaker 2: of brush up against each other and infect each other 698 00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:47,680 Speaker 2: with their ares. 699 00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:50,799 Speaker 3: Yeah, but if you want to learn more about the 700 00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:52,800 Speaker 3: Halo and the Ara, like I said, we did a 701 00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:54,560 Speaker 3: whole series on that a few years back. You can 702 00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:57,440 Speaker 3: go into our archives and check out. Ultimately, I feel 703 00:39:57,440 --> 00:39:59,120 Speaker 3: like a lot of the examples we were able to 704 00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:01,680 Speaker 3: turn up today, I think think do bleed more into 705 00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:05,560 Speaker 3: the Halo auric territory than into the more literal hair 706 00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:09,120 Speaker 3: burning territory that we were thinking about. So I don't know. 707 00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:13,120 Speaker 3: I guess this episode is one where we turned up 708 00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:16,279 Speaker 3: more dead ends than usual. But maybe that's useful to 709 00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:19,600 Speaker 3: you the listener to hear what it's like when you 710 00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:22,279 Speaker 3: expect to find certain things out there and you come 711 00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:22,840 Speaker 3: up cold. 712 00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:26,040 Speaker 2: Well, at least with the second example from the Anea, 713 00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:28,440 Speaker 2: it seems to sort of at least start off like 714 00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:30,640 Speaker 2: hair catching on fire, where they're like, oh my god, 715 00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:32,640 Speaker 2: our hair's on fire. Wait hold up, just an omen, 716 00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:36,759 Speaker 2: It's okay, put their water jugs down. So there is 717 00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:38,200 Speaker 2: at least a direct connection there. 718 00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:40,400 Speaker 3: I think the anead is the closest we got to 719 00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:42,600 Speaker 3: what I had in mind. But like we said, and 720 00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:44,239 Speaker 3: maybe there were a bunch of great examples we just 721 00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:45,080 Speaker 3: didn't come across. 722 00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:48,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And I don't know, there could be examples 723 00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:50,520 Speaker 2: that are kind of that where we lose that emphasis 724 00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:53,440 Speaker 2: and translation. So I don't know, it's like that the 725 00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:57,160 Speaker 2: comparison of hair to fire and all these various auras 726 00:40:57,200 --> 00:40:59,719 Speaker 2: and halo effects, you know, they do kind of bleed 727 00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:03,160 Speaker 2: together and they confuse the topic of it. And again 728 00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:08,160 Speaker 2: there there's no shortage of modern examples that are far clearer. Again, 729 00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:12,400 Speaker 2: lots of fire, elemental beings and fantasy and probably in 730 00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:14,359 Speaker 2: science fiction as well. I didn't look there as much, 731 00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:18,800 Speaker 2: but you know, so many examples, certainly in the illustrated medium. 732 00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:23,400 Speaker 2: There I ran across, like multiple superheroes that have like 733 00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:26,760 Speaker 2: hair of fire. So I do think you're onto something 734 00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:31,239 Speaker 2: with that possible connection to modern depictions of hair and 735 00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:33,839 Speaker 2: that kind of like propping up more and more examples 736 00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:37,040 Speaker 2: of fire elemental beings with flaming hair and flaming beard. 737 00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:39,919 Speaker 3: Speaking of elementals, this has actually been on my list 738 00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:41,560 Speaker 3: for a bit. I've been thinking we should come and 739 00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:43,799 Speaker 3: do an episode on the elementals, like going back to 740 00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:45,120 Speaker 3: Paracelsis and stuff. 741 00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:47,960 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, I'd be up for that. Yeah, all 742 00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:52,240 Speaker 2: the way from ancient traditions on up to dungeons and dragons. 743 00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:54,759 Speaker 3: But okay, I think that does it for burning hair 744 00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:55,040 Speaker 3: for me. 745 00:41:55,719 --> 00:41:57,719 Speaker 2: All Right, we'll go ahead and close it off then, 746 00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:00,239 Speaker 2: but we'd love to hear from everyone out there if 747 00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:02,880 Speaker 2: you have thoughts on anything we discussed here, or examples 748 00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:05,359 Speaker 2: that we didn't bring up, that we should send them 749 00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:09,120 Speaker 2: in and we'll cover them perhaps on a future episode 750 00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:12,120 Speaker 2: of Listener Mail. We're still doing listener mails, They're just 751 00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:16,000 Speaker 2: not happening every week. They're gonna occur, you know, every 752 00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:18,480 Speaker 2: month or so, and we're gonna they're gonna be longer. 753 00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:21,799 Speaker 2: They're gonna be in the place of core episodes. Our 754 00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:25,880 Speaker 2: Core episodes, of course, are key science and culture episodes 755 00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:28,320 Speaker 2: get published on Tuesdays and Thursdays. On Wednesdays we do 756 00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:30,360 Speaker 2: a short form episode, and on Fridays we set aside 757 00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:32,880 Speaker 2: most serious concerns to just talk about a weird film 758 00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:36,160 Speaker 2: on Weird House Cinema. We're running those Weird House Cinema 759 00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:40,440 Speaker 2: rewind episodes on Mondays now and of course regular Vault 760 00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:44,200 Speaker 2: episodes reruns of Core episodes those occur on Saturdays. 761 00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:48,440 Speaker 3: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway. 762 00:42:48,719 --> 00:42:50,359 Speaker 3: If you would like to get in touch with us 763 00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:52,920 Speaker 3: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest 764 00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:54,919 Speaker 3: a topic for the future, or just to say hello, 765 00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:57,680 Speaker 3: you can email us at contact stuff to Blow your 766 00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:06,080 Speaker 3: Mind dot com. 767 00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:09,120 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 768 00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:12,000 Speaker 1: more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 769 00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:29,320 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.