1 00:00:00,360 --> 00:00:03,320 Speaker 1: Hey, there are part time genius fans. It's Mongas particularly 2 00:00:03,480 --> 00:00:07,880 Speaker 1: aka Mango, and I'm here with a very special feed drop. 3 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:11,280 Speaker 1: Years and years ago, when Will and I were at 4 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:15,120 Speaker 1: Mental Floss, we had a little magazine. I was always 5 00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:19,880 Speaker 1: looking for great writers, and when I was scouting the 6 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:22,439 Speaker 1: front pages of New York Magazine, I'd seen this guy 7 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 1: who had written this little tidbit on the Park Slope 8 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:30,360 Speaker 1: food co op, and I thought it was so wonderful. 9 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:33,199 Speaker 1: It was historical, it was funny, it was written in 10 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:38,360 Speaker 1: this like really sharp and brilliant way, and I thought, man, 11 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:40,360 Speaker 1: I really want this person to write for Mental class 12 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:43,920 Speaker 1: So we sort of recorded him. And his name is 13 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:48,040 Speaker 1: Matthew Cher, and he wrote a couple articles for us, 14 00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:50,760 Speaker 1: and every time he wrote an article, I just felt 15 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:54,080 Speaker 1: so lucky to have his words in our magazine. Now, 16 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 1: Matt has gone on to have this incredible career, not 17 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:01,640 Speaker 1: just as a journalist but also as podcaster. He's made 18 00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:05,120 Speaker 1: some of my favorite shows at his company, Campside, and 19 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:08,960 Speaker 1: he has a new show out called Origin Stories, and 20 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:13,160 Speaker 1: it is really so good. It's him sitting with other 21 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:18,760 Speaker 1: writers or directors and talking about the creation of these 22 00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:21,720 Speaker 1: works that are close to their hearts, and for me, 23 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:24,959 Speaker 1: as someone who's always felt like an outsider writing, I 24 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 1: never got to learn at someone's elbow or looking over 25 00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:31,960 Speaker 1: someone's shoulder at a big magazine or a big publishing house. 26 00:01:32,120 --> 00:01:34,920 Speaker 1: I've always loved shows like this because it gives you 27 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:38,960 Speaker 1: real insight into how to write, and how writers think, 28 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:44,520 Speaker 1: and how storytellers really perfect their craft. Anyway, for today's 29 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:48,920 Speaker 1: PTG recommends, we are recommending origin stories, and I'm going 30 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:51,400 Speaker 1: to play you just a little clip with the incredible 31 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:55,480 Speaker 1: author Stephanie Fou. I know her primarily for her work 32 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 1: at This American Life, but she also wrote this incredible 33 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:01,800 Speaker 1: memoir that was a huge best seller, What My Bones Know, 34 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:05,440 Speaker 1: And they talk about how she worked her way through 35 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:10,640 Speaker 1: telling the story about both her struggles and also really 36 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:13,560 Speaker 1: about the healing process and the journey she goes on. 37 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:15,840 Speaker 1: So take a listen. I think you'll love it. 38 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:22,120 Speaker 2: Did you have readers in the writing process? Did your 39 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:24,240 Speaker 2: husband read it, for example, or did you have friends 40 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:25,839 Speaker 2: read versions of the manuscript? 41 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:29,600 Speaker 3: Totally, it's funny because I guess this is a really 42 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 3: nice thing. He thinks it's a really nice compliment. He's like, 43 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:36,760 Speaker 3: you are the best revisor that I know, he was like, 44 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:43,919 Speaker 3: your first draft was so bad, which doesn't didn't make 45 00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 3: me feel good at the time, certainly, but he is 46 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:50,120 Speaker 3: always like, your first draft is always terrible, and then 47 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:53,800 Speaker 3: you get your edits, and then by the second draft 48 00:02:54,639 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 3: you have really turned things around and it's beautiful and 49 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:01,480 Speaker 3: it's magical and it's great and you really know how 50 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:07,000 Speaker 3: to like take edits well, So thanks, I guess Joey. 51 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:11,880 Speaker 2: Well, I mean, that is a skill that not everyone has, 52 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:13,640 Speaker 2: to be fair to Joey, there are people who are 53 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:16,639 Speaker 2: really bad at taking edits in one of two ways, 54 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 2: are one of multiple ways. They get angry, or they 55 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 2: get defensive, or they're just like, I'm not taking these edits. 56 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:26,240 Speaker 3: I think that I have a good gut feeling of 57 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:29,359 Speaker 3: when to not take an edit. I try to take 58 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:32,959 Speaker 3: like ninety percent of edits, like my editor. One of 59 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:34,640 Speaker 3: the edits you gave me was that my book had 60 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:38,240 Speaker 3: too many fart jokes for a heavy book about trauma, 61 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:41,080 Speaker 3: and I was like, no, I'm keeping in the fart jokes. Thanks. 62 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:44,280 Speaker 2: How many is enough? How many? How would like two 63 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 2: have been fine? Are great? 64 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:47,680 Speaker 3: I don't know, but it was just like, you know, 65 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:51,600 Speaker 3: this is a lot of potty humor, and I was like, well, 66 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 3: first of all, I'm Asian, potty humor is our culture. 67 00:03:55,320 --> 00:03:58,880 Speaker 3: And second of all, I wanted it to be a 68 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 3: funny book, like I wanted there to be respite in 69 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:07,320 Speaker 3: the book, and fart jokes are one way to do that. Sure, 70 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 3: but yeah, I imagine having the self confidence to just 71 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:14,600 Speaker 3: be like, I'm not taking edits. Making edits is like 72 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:18,599 Speaker 3: an act of kindness to the audience. It's a way 73 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:22,359 Speaker 3: of like looking out for them in terms of making 74 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:26,280 Speaker 3: it easy for them, making it smooth for them to read. 75 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:32,200 Speaker 3: Your editors your like first audience, right, And I think 76 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:35,440 Speaker 3: for my book anyway, I thought, I don't know, maybe 77 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:37,960 Speaker 3: some artists think about this differently, and they make art 78 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:40,360 Speaker 3: for themselves and they think my audience will come along 79 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 3: for the ride, who are like me. But for me, 80 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:47,640 Speaker 3: I was thinking very intently about my audience in every 81 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:50,360 Speaker 3: single sentence of this book. I would go back and 82 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:54,279 Speaker 3: read it over and over again as different people in 83 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:57,320 Speaker 3: my mind, and specifically people with different kinds of trauma, 84 00:04:57,880 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 3: Like I would read it as somebody who had sexual trauma, 85 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:02,080 Speaker 3: read it as somebody who had childhood trauma. I'd read 86 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:05,600 Speaker 3: it from somebody who was queer or whatever as Asian. 87 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:09,880 Speaker 3: I just really wanted the book to be gentle and 88 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 3: good and helpful to people with complex trauma, because it 89 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:18,320 Speaker 3: is really really hard to have complex PTSD, and it 90 00:05:18,440 --> 00:05:21,320 Speaker 3: is really really hard to read about complex PTSD. It's 91 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:25,960 Speaker 3: really painful, and it can easily feel very judged. I 92 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:29,000 Speaker 3: wanted it to be gentle and good for them, and 93 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:33,200 Speaker 3: so yeah, especially with my editors, who were all readers 94 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:36,680 Speaker 3: with complex PTSD, I took their input very, very seriously. 95 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:40,719 Speaker 3: Like one of my first endings was more ungi dory, 96 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:44,800 Speaker 3: like everything's so great now. One of my readers who 97 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:47,720 Speaker 3: had complex PTSD was like, this is not realistic enough. 98 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:48,559 Speaker 2: It is hard. 99 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:53,040 Speaker 3: It continues to be really hard. You have to convey that, 100 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:55,560 Speaker 3: and so I did change the ending, and I think 101 00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:57,679 Speaker 3: that was a really great edit. If you're not writing 102 00:05:57,680 --> 00:05:59,479 Speaker 3: for your audience, I don't know who are you writing for. 103 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:02,360 Speaker 2: I don't know yourself to hear the sound of your 104 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:06,280 Speaker 2: own voice, which I think is common. I'm really struck 105 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:09,200 Speaker 2: by the shape of this book because in some sense 106 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:11,640 Speaker 2: it's really traditional, Like have you ever heard the phrase 107 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 2: that there's only a few different kinds of stories? And 108 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:16,320 Speaker 2: we repeat them over and over again. It's much more 109 00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:18,240 Speaker 2: than that. But if you were to like diagram it out, 110 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:21,920 Speaker 2: if you like map it out, it's someone who has 111 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:26,279 Speaker 2: a bad experience, learns to understand what it is, experiments 112 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:29,960 Speaker 2: with understanding, like really digging into the literature, and then 113 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:32,440 Speaker 2: tries to find her way through the end. It's like 114 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:36,080 Speaker 2: a clean art, although it's not too clean as you 115 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:36,680 Speaker 2: say it's. 116 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:39,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's the hero's journey, though definitely I'm the character. 117 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 3: I am the main character who's like going on the 118 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:44,920 Speaker 3: journey and looking around trying to find the answers. 119 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:48,760 Speaker 2: And was that instinctual as soon as you knew that 120 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 2: this was going to be your book, was the shape 121 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:53,320 Speaker 2: of it relatively clear to you? 122 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 3: Yeah? I think so. It's clear from all of my 123 00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:57,760 Speaker 3: work in the past that that's how you have to 124 00:06:57,760 --> 00:06:59,360 Speaker 3: do what. There has to be a main character who 125 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:03,080 Speaker 3: is looking I wanted to be a first person narrative 126 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:07,040 Speaker 3: first of all, because I have mostly dealt in first 127 00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:10,000 Speaker 3: person narratives throughout my entire career. That's again what I 128 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 3: know how to do. But I also know the power 129 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:15,640 Speaker 3: of it. If you have like a very clinical book 130 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:18,080 Speaker 3: or a book that's telling you how you should feel 131 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:22,040 Speaker 3: about something, or straight facts and figures. I mean, I 132 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 3: struggle with a lot of nonfiction in reading it because 133 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 3: I get bored. But also I think that you have 134 00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 3: the possibility of really pathologizing these topics and not making 135 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:36,880 Speaker 3: them human. I think when you have a first person story, 136 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 3: the primary benefit of that is people feel seen.