1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:04,800 Speaker 1: Welcome in is verdical Senator Ted Cruz ben Ferguson with you. 2 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:06,760 Speaker 1: It's truly nice to have you with us wherever you 3 00:00:06,840 --> 00:00:09,640 Speaker 1: are around the country. We have got a lot to 4 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:13,480 Speaker 1: chat about on today's show. As you, Centator, have been 5 00:00:13,680 --> 00:00:16,480 Speaker 1: on a codell in Latin America. 6 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:20,279 Speaker 2: Well, that's exactly right. I left several days ago, spent 7 00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:23,760 Speaker 2: two days in El Salvador and then went to Panama 8 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:26,880 Speaker 2: and went and toured the Panama Canal and l Salvador. 9 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:30,760 Speaker 2: I sat down with the president of El Salvador, President Bukelly, 10 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:35,280 Speaker 2: had a one on one meeting with him. The results 11 00:00:35,320 --> 00:00:38,640 Speaker 2: he has produced are extraordinary. We talked about that on 12 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:44,919 Speaker 2: Wednesday's podcast. How El Salvador went from having the highest 13 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:49,680 Speaker 2: murder rate on planet Earth of one hundred murders per 14 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:55,480 Speaker 2: one hundred thousand people, to the murder rate plummeting ninety 15 00:00:55,560 --> 00:01:00,400 Speaker 2: eight percent. Last year, the murder rate was one point 16 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:04,080 Speaker 2: nine murders per one hundred thousand people, making it one 17 00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:07,520 Speaker 2: of the safest countries on Earth, and indeed significantly safer 18 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:12,120 Speaker 2: than the United States. That result is extraordinary. And what 19 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:16,360 Speaker 2: I did this week is I actually toured the Sea 20 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:20,280 Speaker 2: Coot Prison, the prison where El Salvador is putting MS. 21 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:24,479 Speaker 2: Thirteen and BRO eighteen gang members. It was astonishing. I'm 22 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:26,000 Speaker 2: going to bring you inside that prison. I'm going to 23 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:30,240 Speaker 2: tell you exactly what I saw. I also spent a 24 00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:33,200 Speaker 2: day and a half in Panama meeting with senior government 25 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:36,480 Speaker 2: officials in Panama and went and toured the Panama Canal, 26 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:40,840 Speaker 2: saw firsthand how the Panama Canal operates, and saw one 27 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:43,720 Speaker 2: of the two Chinese ports that is right at the 28 00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:47,040 Speaker 2: Pacific mouth of the Panama Canal. I'm going to tell 29 00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 2: you what I saw on the ground and what the 30 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:54,200 Speaker 2: real threat is to American national security and American commerce 31 00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 2: from China having a decisive position on the Panama Canal 32 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:01,360 Speaker 2: that we're going to bring inside. 33 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:03,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's really incredible. 34 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 1: I want to tell you real quick about our friends 35 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:08,160 Speaker 1: over at Patriot Mobile. 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That's Patriot Mobile dot com 71 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:04,840 Speaker 1: slash verdict or nine to seven to two Patriot use 72 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 1: a promo code verdict, You're get a free month of service. 73 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 1: That's nine to seven to Patriot promo code vertict for 74 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:14,480 Speaker 1: a free month of service Patriot Mobile dot com slash verdict. 75 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:16,719 Speaker 1: All right, So center, let's start with a big part 76 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:18,920 Speaker 1: of your trip. You mentioned in a moment ago. You 77 00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:21,600 Speaker 1: actually went in and saw the prison that everybody's been 78 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 1: talking about. 79 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:26,720 Speaker 2: Well, I did. The steacut prison El Salvador, built to 80 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:30,840 Speaker 2: house the very worst gang members. It's a maximum security prison. 81 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:35,040 Speaker 2: It has the capacity of forty thousand prisoners, and they 82 00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:38,080 Speaker 2: built it with that capacity because that was their estimate 83 00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:40,240 Speaker 2: of the gang members that they were looking at that 84 00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:46,040 Speaker 2: they wanted to incapacitate. I drove from the capital city 85 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:48,760 Speaker 2: since Salvador, it is forty five minutes to an hour 86 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:51,960 Speaker 2: to get to the prison. I drove to the prison. 87 00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:54,520 Speaker 2: One of the things that is striking as you're pulling 88 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:58,240 Speaker 2: up to the prison that they instruct you turn your 89 00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:01,159 Speaker 2: cell phone on, put it on airplane mode. And the 90 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:03,320 Speaker 2: reason is there are no cell phones and in fact, 91 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:07,840 Speaker 2: they have jammers in the prison, and so unlike most prisons, 92 00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:13,120 Speaker 2: if not every prison on the planet where prisoners frequently 93 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:16,560 Speaker 2: smuggle in cell phones, often with the complicity of prison guards, 94 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:20,240 Speaker 2: at the Seacut prison, there are no cell phones. The 95 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:24,240 Speaker 2: cell phones are jammed, and in fact, what the El 96 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 2: Salvador's government has done is imposed massive fines on the 97 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:35,560 Speaker 2: cell phone companies. Even a single call goes through from 98 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:39,560 Speaker 2: the prison, and so the cell phone companies to avoid 99 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:43,159 Speaker 2: and the fines. If I remember correctly what the Justice 100 00:05:43,279 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 2: minister said to me, it is one hundred thousand dollars 101 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 2: per violation, so it can rack up very very quickly. 102 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:55,360 Speaker 2: Ten calls is a million bucks, which means the cell 103 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 2: phone companies don't want a single call coming out of 104 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:01,120 Speaker 2: that prison, and as a result, the prison is totally 105 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:01,640 Speaker 2: locked down. 106 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:04,159 Speaker 1: So you're hear something like that by the way, and 107 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:05,719 Speaker 1: you sit there and you're like, wait, why aren't we 108 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:06,440 Speaker 1: doing that here? 109 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 2: Right? 110 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:08,800 Speaker 1: Like, why aren't we doing things like this to make 111 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:11,880 Speaker 1: prison not like an easy place and to make sure 112 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:15,000 Speaker 1: that exactly just mentioned this stuff doesn't happen in America's 113 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:17,360 Speaker 1: I love when you hear other ideas from other countries 114 00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:17,720 Speaker 1: like this. 115 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:20,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, I have to admit I thought about the cell 116 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:24,360 Speaker 2: phone blockers, and I've been supportive of legislation to increase 117 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:27,360 Speaker 2: the punishment for having a cell phone in US prisons 118 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:34,280 Speaker 2: because you end up having gangs and drugs, and many 119 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:37,240 Speaker 2: of the worst criminals in America are operating out of 120 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:43,920 Speaker 2: prisons and are inflicting enormous violence on civilian populations outside 121 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 2: of prison. And so that's certainly a lesson I think 122 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:49,559 Speaker 2: we can learn in terms of how to be more 123 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:52,000 Speaker 2: effective shutting off the means of communication. 124 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:55,719 Speaker 1: So you go from there, you see this, and then 125 00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 1: where what happens next? 126 00:06:57,880 --> 00:07:01,279 Speaker 2: All right, So you drive up to, first of all, 127 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:06,520 Speaker 2: a massive steel gate and concrete walls, concrete walls that 128 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:10,560 Speaker 2: go up i'd say about thirty feet, and then on 129 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:14,880 Speaker 2: top of the concrete walls is barbed wire, and then 130 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:18,480 Speaker 2: on top of the barbed wire is electrified wire, so 131 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:22,320 Speaker 2: it's an imposing front entrance that you come to it. 132 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:27,600 Speaker 2: You then go through these giant steel doors. You go 133 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:31,200 Speaker 2: through a second set of giant steel doors you go in. 134 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:34,040 Speaker 2: It's very much at this prison like an airlock where 135 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:35,480 Speaker 2: you go in. We were in a bus and we 136 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:38,040 Speaker 2: got out of the bus and we went in where 137 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:42,520 Speaker 2: they require every prison guard every day to go through 138 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:46,680 Speaker 2: and they go through a metal detector. It's very much 139 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 2: like going into an airport where you go through a 140 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 2: metal detector. You scan any bag you have with you, 141 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 2: and then they have a scanner, an X ray machine 142 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:59,560 Speaker 2: designed to find things that are even within body cavities, 143 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:03,000 Speaker 2: if you've ingested anything. I mean it is it was 144 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:06,320 Speaker 2: impressive technology that every guard is required to go through 145 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:08,560 Speaker 2: every day when they walk in. I will say, they 146 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:11,080 Speaker 2: didn't make me go through those skins, So I guess 147 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:14,480 Speaker 2: that there are some benefits to being part of the 148 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 2: United States government. I was there with the Justice Minister 149 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:19,920 Speaker 2: who was giving me the tour himself, so I guess 150 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:23,560 Speaker 2: they were not terribly worried about my having swallowed balloons 151 00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 2: with heroin in them, or having a shank and sealed somewhere. 152 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:30,360 Speaker 2: I had neither, but I was glad that they did 153 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:34,120 Speaker 2: not check. So I went into the main prison and 154 00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:36,440 Speaker 2: you drive and you have a whole series that there's 155 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 2: a gate, there's another gate, and there's another gate, and 156 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 2: there are walls. It's a little bit like the opening 157 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:43,040 Speaker 2: of Get Smart, where you go through gate after gate 158 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:47,080 Speaker 2: after gate. Yeah, it's a whole series of walls and 159 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:51,319 Speaker 2: barbed wire, and I mean it's it's imposing. I mean 160 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 2: it is not. It is designed so there ain't nobody 161 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:58,320 Speaker 2: getting out. And I asked them if they had anyone escape. 162 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:00,400 Speaker 2: They they've never had anyone to escape. I believe them, 163 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 2: and I believe them because what I saw then, I've 164 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 2: never seen anything like this. So they have eight units 165 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:11,360 Speaker 2: that are built. Each of the units is designed to 166 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:14,319 Speaker 2: house five thousand prisoners. That's why the capacity is forty 167 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:18,000 Speaker 2: thousand prisoners. They are at about fifty percent capacity right now. 168 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:20,840 Speaker 2: They're just under twenty thousand prisoners that are there right now. 169 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:25,240 Speaker 2: So I went into one of the eight units. In 170 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:30,880 Speaker 2: that unit, they have a series of massive cells. Each 171 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:35,680 Speaker 2: of the cells holds one hundred prisoners. Now, the cells 172 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:39,920 Speaker 2: that hold one hundred prisoners, they have four sets of 173 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:45,640 Speaker 2: long bunk beds that go up four levels high. So 174 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:49,440 Speaker 2: these cells are I don't know, probably thirty feet up 175 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 2: in the air. I mean they're in terms of height, 176 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:55,680 Speaker 2: they're high cells, and they have these bunk beds. The 177 00:09:55,679 --> 00:09:59,400 Speaker 2: bunk beds are made out of stainless steel. So the prisoners. 178 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:02,480 Speaker 2: You walk and you see a hundred prisoners sitting on 179 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:05,640 Speaker 2: these bunk beds, and these bunk beds are stainless steel. 180 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:11,680 Speaker 2: They're no sheets, they're no blankets, they're no pillows. It 181 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:15,000 Speaker 2: is one hundred prisoners. They're dressed in white. They're dressed 182 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:20,599 Speaker 2: in white kind of loose fitting shirt shorts and T shirts, 183 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:25,160 Speaker 2: and they are sitting there on these bunk beds four 184 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:28,480 Speaker 2: levels up. So the fourth level up is I don't know, 185 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 2: it's probably it's north of twenty feet up. I mean 186 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:32,120 Speaker 2: you have to climb up a ladder to get on it. 187 00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:36,280 Speaker 2: And so you just see one hundred prisoners and you 188 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:39,640 Speaker 2: have to envision almost all of these. So they're all adults. 189 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:42,080 Speaker 2: This prison does not have any juveniles. No one under 190 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:44,520 Speaker 2: eighteen is there, and there are no women there. So 191 00:10:44,559 --> 00:10:48,400 Speaker 2: these are all men, and they're overwhelmingly young men. I 192 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:55,160 Speaker 2: would say they're overwhelmingly eighteen to thirty five, and they're 193 00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:59,400 Speaker 2: all gang members. And there's no subtlety about this. In 194 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 2: fact that at one point in one of the cells 195 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:06,360 Speaker 2: they had the prisoners come forward. They instructed them remove 196 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:08,440 Speaker 2: their T shirts and you could see them remove their 197 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:13,199 Speaker 2: T shirts and all of them had gang tattoos on them. 198 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:16,280 Speaker 2: And it wasn't subtle. It was a giant MS thirteen 199 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:18,200 Speaker 2: like across their chest. I mean, it is not. 200 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:20,640 Speaker 3: Right and presses. 201 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:23,160 Speaker 1: They're not trying to hide it. 202 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:28,720 Speaker 2: It was that there was no ambiguity. And the prisoners 203 00:11:29,679 --> 00:11:34,560 Speaker 2: twenty three hours a day they're in those cells, and 204 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:39,040 Speaker 2: in front of the cells are prison guards, and the 205 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:44,040 Speaker 2: prison guards are standing there holding machine guns watching them 206 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:47,800 Speaker 2: through the front of the bars above the prison cell 207 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 2: is there's a whole level above the prison cell and 208 00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:56,600 Speaker 2: and it's basically bars on top as well, and so 209 00:11:56,679 --> 00:12:00,520 Speaker 2: their prison guards on top of the prison cell looking 210 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 2: down on them. So unlike you know, you and I 211 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:07,920 Speaker 2: have both seen a lot of prison movies where people 212 00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:10,559 Speaker 2: are off in dark corners and doing things in their 213 00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:13,959 Speaker 2: cells where they can't be seen. Sure, these prisoners are 214 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:18,200 Speaker 2: being monitored constantly. The lights are on twenty four hours 215 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:20,760 Speaker 2: a day. They do not turn the lights off, and 216 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:26,040 Speaker 2: they have prison guards with machine guns watching them twenty 217 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:29,839 Speaker 2: four hours a day. They allow the prisoners out of 218 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:33,920 Speaker 2: their cells for an hour a day, and they allow 219 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:36,080 Speaker 2: them in small groups of about twenty, so it's not 220 00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:39,280 Speaker 2: very many. And the small groups come out and they 221 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:42,480 Speaker 2: do thirty minutes of calisthenics, and the calisthenics are led 222 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:47,000 Speaker 2: by a prison employee, and it's so they don't have 223 00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 2: weight equipment or anything else, but they're doing kind of 224 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:54,000 Speaker 2: stretches and jumping jacks and various calisthenics. And then they 225 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:58,080 Speaker 2: have thirty minutes of religious instruction. And I asked, I said, okay, 226 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:03,120 Speaker 2: are those optional mandatory? They said no, they're mandatory. Uh. 227 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:07,640 Speaker 2: And so that other than that one hour, the remaining 228 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 2: twenty three hours a day there in that cell. I 229 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:14,520 Speaker 2: will tell you. I asked the justice minister, I asked 230 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:16,440 Speaker 2: the head of the prison. It was also with me 231 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:20,040 Speaker 2: in giving you the tour. I said, you know, I asked, 232 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:23,840 Speaker 2: how much violence do you have? The answer was essentially 233 00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:27,920 Speaker 2: none that and you could see it. I mean, given the. 234 00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:31,160 Speaker 3: Prison, why is the consequences? 235 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:34,520 Speaker 1: Explain the logic behind the reason why there's virtually none. 236 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:37,240 Speaker 2: Look, I don't know. I'm just telling you what they 237 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:42,400 Speaker 2: told me. I asked. I asked about prison rape. Look on, tragically, 238 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:48,640 Speaker 2: in virtually every prison on Earth, rape is a significant risk. 239 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:54,280 Speaker 2: It happens with with far too common frequency. They they 240 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:56,920 Speaker 2: said it it didn't happen there, that they did not 241 00:13:57,160 --> 00:14:00,760 Speaker 2: deal with with prison rape. And I don't know that 242 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:03,720 Speaker 2: I entirely believe that, but I got to say I 243 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:08,200 Speaker 2: mostly believe that because prison rate normally occurs where you 244 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 2: have prisoners that are out of view of anyone and 245 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:14,960 Speaker 2: able to be somewhere where someone can be the victim 246 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:18,520 Speaker 2: of sexual assault. In this instance, when you have prison 247 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:23,160 Speaker 2: guards with machine guns watching you at every moment, there's 248 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:26,120 Speaker 2: not a lot of capacity to engage in an active violence. 249 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:29,480 Speaker 1: I want to go back to what you were talking about, 250 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:33,080 Speaker 1: the conditions there and also the rules and how they're 251 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:35,400 Speaker 1: running their prisons down there in a way that I'm 252 00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:37,360 Speaker 1: kind of jealous that we're not doing it here. 253 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:43,200 Speaker 2: Well, you mentioned that it is designed to make life unpleasant, 254 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:46,760 Speaker 2: and I will say, look, it's clearly designed in capacity, 255 00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:51,760 Speaker 2: and it's doing that incredibly effectively. They've taken the murderers 256 00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:56,760 Speaker 2: off the streets, but it is also designed. Listen. I've 257 00:14:56,800 --> 00:14:59,000 Speaker 2: been to prisons before in Texas. I've been to the 258 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:02,560 Speaker 2: prison in Huntsville. I've been a death row on Huntsville. 259 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:06,560 Speaker 2: When I was the Solicitor General of Texas, there were 260 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:10,360 Speaker 2: multiple legal challenges to the method of capital punishment in 261 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:13,400 Speaker 2: Texas and I was defending that. I was defending that 262 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:16,200 Speaker 2: in federal court. So I felt an obligation that I 263 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:19,840 Speaker 2: needed to go and personally observe an execution. That I 264 00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:24,960 Speaker 2: couldn't do my job effectively and litigate defending the method 265 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:28,720 Speaker 2: that Texas used for capital punishment unless I observed it myself. 266 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:31,359 Speaker 2: So I went there. I was behind the scenes and 267 00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:36,000 Speaker 2: saw how capital punishment was executed. And I will tell you, look, 268 00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:39,760 Speaker 2: being in a Texas prison is no walk in a park, 269 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:45,240 Speaker 2: to put it mildly, but it pales in comparison to 270 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:49,560 Speaker 2: what I observed there. I have to say, I cannot 271 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:55,240 Speaker 2: imagine life. It is hell on earth. It is you 272 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:59,320 Speaker 2: are locked up every minute of the day. Now, you're 273 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:03,600 Speaker 2: not subjective, assuming the reports from the head of the 274 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:06,200 Speaker 2: prison is accurate, you're not subjected to violence and threat 275 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:08,600 Speaker 2: and by the way, one of the things they do 276 00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:13,000 Speaker 2: so Previously, prisons had separated each gang, so they've sent 277 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:17,520 Speaker 2: MS thirteen to one and eighteenth Street barrioed another. In 278 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:20,440 Speaker 2: this instance, they don't do that. In fact, they mix 279 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:24,200 Speaker 2: gang members, multiple gang members in the same cell. And 280 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:27,640 Speaker 2: part of the reason for that is they said, look, 281 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:29,600 Speaker 2: if you put all the MS thirteen gang members in 282 00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:32,120 Speaker 2: one prison, they end up operating the gang out of 283 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:35,720 Speaker 2: there and it becomes a safe haven. And in this case, 284 00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 2: and by the way, these gangs they're not just sort 285 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:41,360 Speaker 2: of rivals. It's not like you know, the Yankees and 286 00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:45,800 Speaker 2: the Mets. I mean they are each other y. Yeah, 287 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:47,440 Speaker 2: like if they see each other in the streets, they 288 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:51,160 Speaker 2: opened fire and they're suddenly locked together in a cell. 289 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:54,400 Speaker 2: So the hundred prisoners in a cell and I saw 290 00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:57,360 Speaker 2: like lined up, you would seem the main ones were 291 00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:00,680 Speaker 2: MS thirteen and eighteenth Street Barrio and you would see 292 00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:03,040 Speaker 2: the tax and they're all together, and they had to 293 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:05,320 Speaker 2: learn them like they're going to be locked up in 294 00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:09,080 Speaker 2: the same cage together for a long time. I saw 295 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:11,000 Speaker 2: several prisoners. I'm going to tell you in a minute 296 00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:14,160 Speaker 2: about an extended conversation I had with an MS thirteen 297 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:18,200 Speaker 2: gang member, which was chilling, but I will say I 298 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:21,320 Speaker 2: saw several several prisoners. There was one they showed me 299 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:26,159 Speaker 2: that had a prison sentence of over a thousand years wow. 300 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:30,959 Speaker 2: So he had been convicted of over six homicides, at 301 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:34,399 Speaker 2: at least six. And one of the things that Justice 302 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:37,480 Speaker 2: Minister said to me about MS thirteen, he said, in 303 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:40,320 Speaker 2: the United States, to become an MS thirteen member, you 304 00:17:40,359 --> 00:17:44,680 Speaker 2: have to murder someone. That is the process of admission. 305 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:47,560 Speaker 2: You cannot be admitted to the gang if you don't 306 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:51,680 Speaker 2: kill somebody. What the Justice Minister told me is an 307 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:55,919 Speaker 2: El Salvador to be a member of the gang, you 308 00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:59,960 Speaker 2: had to commit ten murders. So one of the things 309 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:02,000 Speaker 2: he described to me, he said, listen, these people are 310 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:08,399 Speaker 2: serial killers. They are mass murderers. And the reason the 311 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:12,440 Speaker 2: crime rate plummeted is because they took all the mass 312 00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:15,280 Speaker 2: murderers off the street. They took the gang members and 313 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:19,159 Speaker 2: and and gang activity is essentially nonexistent. And so like 314 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:22,160 Speaker 2: I like, I had dinner in down downtown at Saints 315 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:25,400 Speaker 2: albat Or, a very nice restaurant, a state restaurant there, 316 00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:27,720 Speaker 2: and the folks I was having dinner with it was 317 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:30,440 Speaker 2: a cabinet member. I was having dinner with and and 318 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:32,600 Speaker 2: and she said, look, it used to be a few 319 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:37,199 Speaker 2: years ago, nobody would come here at night because you 320 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:39,879 Speaker 2: would be robbed, you would be kidnapped, you'd be murdered. 321 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:42,920 Speaker 2: And I'll tell you when I came to downtown, downtown 322 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:47,800 Speaker 2: was beautiful that there were families, there were kids playing 323 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:52,800 Speaker 2: like like it was transformation. And and this prison and 324 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:56,080 Speaker 2: this zero tolerance they went after and they arrested, they 325 00:18:56,119 --> 00:18:57,720 Speaker 2: put in jail all the gang members and they said, 326 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:01,000 Speaker 2: if you join the gang, it is a terror rist organization. 327 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:04,439 Speaker 2: To join the gang, you are a murderer and we 328 00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:06,440 Speaker 2: are taking you off the street. And the success of 329 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:11,600 Speaker 2: it is incredible. But they gave me an opportunity to 330 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:15,240 Speaker 2: visit with an MS thirteen gang member who's from Texas. 331 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:18,200 Speaker 2: And so they pulled him aside because he was from Texas, 332 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:20,800 Speaker 2: and they said, you may, you may want to talk 333 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:24,280 Speaker 2: with him, and so I did. I talked with him 334 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:27,679 Speaker 2: for quite a bit of time. He was in his 335 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:31,439 Speaker 2: early forties, he had lived much of his life in 336 00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:35,119 Speaker 2: the United States. We had perfect English, and he had 337 00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:38,119 Speaker 2: lived in Dallas for many years as an MS thirteen 338 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:42,600 Speaker 2: gang member. And he described how he had grown up 339 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:48,240 Speaker 2: in Virginia, and he'd lived in Virginia and Maryland and 340 00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 2: DC and he said that then he became an MS 341 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:55,879 Speaker 2: thirteen gang member when he was thirteen years old in 342 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:59,679 Speaker 2: Falls Church, Virginia, and he described it. I said, well, how 343 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:01,800 Speaker 2: did you come to be at this prison and he said, well, 344 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:05,000 Speaker 2: I was deported so he was illegally in the United States. 345 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 2: He said, I was deported. I was sent back to 346 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:10,280 Speaker 2: El Salvador. And he said, I committed a homicide here. 347 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:12,399 Speaker 2: I was convicted of homicide. So he murdered someone in 348 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:16,159 Speaker 2: Al Salvador, at least one person, and he admitted to it. 349 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:18,040 Speaker 2: He was not hiding it. He's like, yeah, I committed 350 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:22,040 Speaker 2: a homicide and that's why I'm here. And I said, well, 351 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:24,720 Speaker 2: did you commit crimes in the United States? He said yes, 352 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:29,040 Speaker 2: yes I did. And I said, well, what crimes did 353 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:31,280 Speaker 2: you commit? Did you commit murder in the United States? 354 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:34,440 Speaker 2: And he wouldn't answer, and it was clear, look, he 355 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:36,720 Speaker 2: hadn't been convicted of murder in the United States, but 356 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:40,200 Speaker 2: he said I, well, I committed crimes, but he didn't 357 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:43,160 Speaker 2: want to answer the specific question. And it was interesting. 358 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:46,400 Speaker 2: The Justice Minister was standing there with me and he 359 00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:48,640 Speaker 2: chimed in and he pressed again. He said, look, did 360 00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:52,159 Speaker 2: you commit homicide in the United States? Tell us? And 361 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:55,760 Speaker 2: in his response, he said, well, you know how you 362 00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:59,840 Speaker 2: become a member of MS thirteen, So he did. 363 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:02,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's about as honest some answers you're gonna get right. 364 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:06,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, he said he became a member when he 365 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:08,679 Speaker 2: was thirteen, and the way you become a member is 366 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:12,880 Speaker 2: your murder soon And he'd been in Virginia at extended time. 367 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 2: He'd been in Dallas as a gang member, so I 368 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:19,159 Speaker 2: don't know. He may have murdered Texans. He did not, 369 00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:22,560 Speaker 2: He did not detail, and he was covered in tats, 370 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:24,960 Speaker 2: and you know, he was a and I talked to 371 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:29,720 Speaker 2: him and he had a forty years sentence, so he 372 00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:34,879 Speaker 2: will get out in his eighties. Wow. And I was 373 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:37,639 Speaker 2: asking about that. And he has a family. He has 374 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:41,920 Speaker 2: a wife and he has two kids. He has a daughter, 375 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:45,280 Speaker 2: and he has a thirteen year old son that they're 376 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:48,760 Speaker 2: all in Nolsalvador. And I asked him, I said, okay, 377 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:51,240 Speaker 2: your son is thirteen, he's the same age you were 378 00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:55,840 Speaker 2: when you joined him as thirteen. I asked, do you 379 00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:58,440 Speaker 2: want him to join the gang? And he looked at 380 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:03,000 Speaker 2: me horrified. He said no, no, And he had a comment. 381 00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:06,320 Speaker 2: It was a weird comment where he said, look, my 382 00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:08,480 Speaker 2: son is living here now and it's safe and he 383 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:11,680 Speaker 2: doesn't have to join a gang. And it was this 384 00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:15,320 Speaker 2: is someone whose entire life is going to be in 385 00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:17,880 Speaker 2: a cage in a hole. And by the way, he said, 386 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:19,760 Speaker 2: I'll never see my wife again, I will never see 387 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:23,879 Speaker 2: my children again. But like, there's no visitation, there's no 388 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:27,080 Speaker 2: he is locked in a cage with ninety nine other 389 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:30,200 Speaker 2: gang members for the rest of his life. Wow, and 390 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:35,360 Speaker 2: there look, there was a despair. And I asked him, 391 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:38,320 Speaker 2: I said, look, you became you joined the gang at thirteen. 392 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:40,640 Speaker 2: Why did you join the gang? He said, look, all 393 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:43,439 Speaker 2: my friends were everyone I knew was that was the 394 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:45,480 Speaker 2: world I was in that you joined the gang. You 395 00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:48,960 Speaker 2: join the gang, you survive. And I asked him, I said, well, 396 00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:51,879 Speaker 2: if you wanted to, could you quit. Let's say you 397 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:54,080 Speaker 2: were fifteen or sixteen or seventeen. You said, all right, 398 00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:57,200 Speaker 2: I'm done. He said no, there's no way to quit. 399 00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:02,080 Speaker 2: He said, you had two options, kill or die. That's 400 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:03,800 Speaker 2: what life was as a gang member. And I have 401 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:06,440 Speaker 2: to say, listen, this is someone who I assume has 402 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:09,879 Speaker 2: committed multiple murders. He admitted to at least two wan 403 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:12,520 Speaker 2: or Nel Salvador, and at least one in the United States, 404 00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:16,040 Speaker 2: and it may have been many more. And so I'm 405 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:20,920 Speaker 2: very glad he's incarcerated and not murdering people anymore. But 406 00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:24,240 Speaker 2: I will say, you know, I mean I felt a sadness. 407 00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:29,159 Speaker 2: This is a human being whose entire life is just 408 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:35,680 Speaker 2: a waste and it and the sentiment he expressed, I mean, 409 00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:39,560 Speaker 2: he really did express joys the wrong word for it, 410 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:45,480 Speaker 2: but I'd say gratitude that his thirteen year old son 411 00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:47,560 Speaker 2: does not have to live in a world. And he 412 00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:50,840 Speaker 2: had basically said, look, Al Salvador is much safer that 413 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:53,840 Speaker 2: it's ever been. I mean, he was almost saying it's 414 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:56,400 Speaker 2: a good thing he's in prison. He didn't quite say that, 415 00:23:57,200 --> 00:23:59,600 Speaker 2: but when he was talking about his son, that's basically 416 00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:04,400 Speaker 2: what he was saying. And that I got to say, Look, 417 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:08,120 Speaker 2: in US prisons, they'll they'll let you read books, they'll 418 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:11,320 Speaker 2: let you watch TV, they'll let you lift weights, they'll 419 00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:14,520 Speaker 2: let you play basketball, they'll let you play sports, you socialize, 420 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:19,879 Speaker 2: and there's there may be some virtue to that, but 421 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:25,760 Speaker 2: I got to say, any gang members, gang activity has 422 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:29,000 Speaker 2: disappeared Nel Salvador. If you knew what life was like 423 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:31,879 Speaker 2: for these guys, there's no way on Earth you'd be 424 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:34,720 Speaker 2: willing to join a gang because their life is effectively over. 425 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 1: What are the other parts of your trip involved? Going 426 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:42,280 Speaker 1: to the Panama Canal and seeing some different things, including 427 00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:45,600 Speaker 1: a lot that deals with China. Now it's been a 428 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:47,320 Speaker 1: big concern talk about that. 429 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:51,119 Speaker 2: Yeah. So I've spent a day and a half in Panama. 430 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:54,719 Speaker 2: I flew from El Salvador to Panama and met with 431 00:24:54,720 --> 00:25:01,000 Speaker 2: with with multiple cabinet members, the Finance Minister, the Defense Minister, 432 00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:05,560 Speaker 2: the Public Safety minister, uh and the head of the 433 00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:09,119 Speaker 2: Panama Canal and and and I will say, remember one, 434 00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:14,240 Speaker 2: Panama is a beautiful country. Uh it is. It is 435 00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:17,679 Speaker 2: a gorgeous place. And and the people of Panama have 436 00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:20,640 Speaker 2: a deep affinity for America. I was struck by that. 437 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:26,400 Speaker 2: You know that they repeatedly, the government officials, the Panamanians 438 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:30,320 Speaker 2: that I visited with, there's a long history at a close, 439 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:35,800 Speaker 2: close affinity for the United States. The Panama Canal is amazing. 440 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:39,639 Speaker 2: So I went out on a boat and went to 441 00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:42,080 Speaker 2: the outer parts of the Panama Canal, and then I 442 00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:44,520 Speaker 2: went to one of the locks, and I saw I 443 00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:49,760 Speaker 2: saw one of the Panamas, like the super tankers coming through, 444 00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:53,720 Speaker 2: and and then also saw a little sailboat coming through, 445 00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:56,480 Speaker 2: and then a kind of medium sized container ship coming through. 446 00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:02,520 Speaker 2: It is amazing, it is like, it is very cool. 447 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:05,960 Speaker 2: Number one, just how the Panama Canal operates. Like you 448 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:12,320 Speaker 2: see the Panamax, the supertanker. The container ship is the 449 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:16,399 Speaker 2: largest size possible to fit through the Panama Canal, and 450 00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:18,800 Speaker 2: it's built for that size. I mean, it is literally 451 00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:23,199 Speaker 2: this massive ship that is going through these locks. And 452 00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:26,399 Speaker 2: these locks have concrete on the side, and it's built 453 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:29,840 Speaker 2: so the sides of the ship are within two feet 454 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:32,679 Speaker 2: of the concrete walls on both sides, Like it's that big. 455 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:37,199 Speaker 2: And what happens. So we were on the Pacific end 456 00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:40,560 Speaker 2: of the canal and a ship comes in and each 457 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:44,320 Speaker 2: of the locks has to lower the ship twenty seven feet, 458 00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:46,719 Speaker 2: so it comes in into the locks. And it's interesting 459 00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:49,919 Speaker 2: for the big tanker that connect steel cables to the 460 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:53,720 Speaker 2: tanker and they have locomotives on both sides to help 461 00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:56,320 Speaker 2: keep the ship right in the center. You've got only 462 00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:58,359 Speaker 2: two feet of clearance on both sides, so it'd be 463 00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:00,760 Speaker 2: really easy for it to small into the side of 464 00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:06,320 Speaker 2: the canal and it is in the lock, and then 465 00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:08,960 Speaker 2: it takes about eight to ten minutes for the water 466 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:12,320 Speaker 2: to drain and for it to lower twenty seven feet, 467 00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:14,320 Speaker 2: and it's lowering twenty seven feet, and it goes to 468 00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:16,920 Speaker 2: the next lot and it lowers another I believe it's 469 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:20,280 Speaker 2: twenty seven feet. All told, it's about eight I think 470 00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:24,000 Speaker 2: it's eighty one feet. That it has to rise to 471 00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:25,920 Speaker 2: get to the height of the lake in the interior, 472 00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:28,040 Speaker 2: and then it has to lower it to get to 473 00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:30,159 Speaker 2: the Atlantic Ocean of the Pacific Ocean, and both the 474 00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:35,840 Speaker 2: Atlantic and Pacific are about the same distance. To lower 475 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:38,680 Speaker 2: the water twenty seven feet takes eight to ten minutes, 476 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:42,520 Speaker 2: and so the water goes down and then the giant 477 00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:47,000 Speaker 2: gates open. It was amazing to watch the technology. I 478 00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:49,400 Speaker 2: saw the old control room. I saw the control room 479 00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:52,240 Speaker 2: where the lock is being operated, the old control room. 480 00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:54,920 Speaker 2: So the Panama Canal was built in nineteen fourteen. The 481 00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:59,680 Speaker 2: United States built it, and we lost thousands and thousands 482 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:03,520 Speaker 2: of lots I was building it. It's an incredible engineering marvel. 483 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:10,720 Speaker 2: So the old control room had these brass ge equipment. 484 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:14,760 Speaker 2: You saw the old g General Electric and Electric that 485 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:18,359 Speaker 2: they built one of the first early computers to help 486 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:22,200 Speaker 2: operate the locks. It's amazing now now it's all computerized 487 00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:25,840 Speaker 2: in high tech. So the old brass controls of each 488 00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:28,520 Speaker 2: lock that gives you the water height. And it was 489 00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:32,639 Speaker 2: literally it almost looked like something Captain Nemo would have 490 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:37,679 Speaker 2: in terms of the nineteen fourteen levers and switches to 491 00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:41,600 Speaker 2: operate the canal that's still preserved there. When I went 492 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:43,400 Speaker 2: out on the boat, one of the things I saw 493 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:48,160 Speaker 2: ben is right at the entrance, the Pacific entrance of 494 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:53,400 Speaker 2: the canal, there is a gigantic port that is owned 495 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:57,640 Speaker 2: and controlled by Communist China, and it's right there, and 496 00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:01,680 Speaker 2: they have cranes. They're right there in a position. There 497 00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:06,600 Speaker 2: is also China is building a bridge, a bridge across 498 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:11,000 Speaker 2: the canal. It is a bridge for cars. They were 499 00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:14,520 Speaker 2: awarded the contract to build the bridge. China is also 500 00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:18,160 Speaker 2: there's a Chinese company that is digging a tunnel under 501 00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:22,520 Speaker 2: the canal for a metro trade. And so I saw, 502 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:24,640 Speaker 2: I saw where the metro was going to go. I 503 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:27,640 Speaker 2: saw the bridge being built, and it's all right there 504 00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:31,640 Speaker 2: at the mouth of the canal. And I went the 505 00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:34,400 Speaker 2: purpose of my visit was to meet with the Panamanian 506 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:39,080 Speaker 2: government and say, look, China cannot have control of this canal. 507 00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:43,959 Speaker 2: It is too important to the United States, to our 508 00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:47,200 Speaker 2: national security, to our economic security. As you know, I'm 509 00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:49,840 Speaker 2: the chairman of the Senate Commerce Committee. The Commerce Committee 510 00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:53,840 Speaker 2: has jurisdiction over the Panama Canal, and so earlier this 511 00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:57,280 Speaker 2: year I chaired a hearing on the Panama Canal in 512 00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:02,360 Speaker 2: the Commerce Committee and we laid out the concerns, in 513 00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:05,640 Speaker 2: particular the concerns of China. And when I laid out 514 00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:10,320 Speaker 2: to the Panamanian officials, I said, look, if God forbid, 515 00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:14,200 Speaker 2: we find ourselves in a military conflict with China. Let's 516 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:19,920 Speaker 2: say next year China invades Taiwan and President she has 517 00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:23,960 Speaker 2: repeatedly said he wants to invade Taiwan. If he does so, 518 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:27,720 Speaker 2: there's a very real possibility that escalates into a military 519 00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:31,480 Speaker 2: conflict with the United States. If China is in an 520 00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:35,680 Speaker 2: active military conflict with the United States, I think the 521 00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:41,040 Speaker 2: risk is unacceptable that China would try to shut down 522 00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:45,360 Speaker 2: the Panama Canal because if they shut down the Panama Canal, 523 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:49,760 Speaker 2: it massively delays our ability to move military ships from 524 00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:53,320 Speaker 2: the Atlantic to the Pacific to engage with the Chinese 525 00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:56,880 Speaker 2: in Taiwan because it forces our military ships instead to 526 00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:59,960 Speaker 2: go around the southern tip of South America rather than 527 00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:05,360 Speaker 2: through the canal. And so if you're president, she look, 528 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:07,240 Speaker 2: you wouldn't do it at the time of peace. But 529 00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:13,640 Speaker 2: if they're at war, it becomes a really compelling situation 530 00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:17,400 Speaker 2: to say, let's impose massive economic harm on the United 531 00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:21,640 Speaker 2: States and we get enormous benefits. They're billions of dollars 532 00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:26,840 Speaker 2: of revenue that comes from shipping. Shipping, whether it is 533 00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:30,280 Speaker 2: is oil and gas through the Panama Canal or goods 534 00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:33,680 Speaker 2: and containers, and shutting down the Panama Canal would be 535 00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:36,240 Speaker 2: a real blow to the United States economy. But it 536 00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:38,320 Speaker 2: would also be a real blow to our military because 537 00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:41,280 Speaker 2: it would limit our ability to move naval ships from 538 00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:46,240 Speaker 2: the Atlantic to Pacific. It would massively delay moving that 539 00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:51,280 Speaker 2: those ships. And so what I'm pressing Panama, I will 540 00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:54,360 Speaker 2: say when I shared the hearing on the Panama Canal, 541 00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:59,800 Speaker 2: within a week they announced the deal to sell those 542 00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:05,680 Speaker 2: two do Chinese ports to an American business consortium. That 543 00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:08,280 Speaker 2: deal has not gone through yet. The Chinese are slow 544 00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:10,640 Speaker 2: walking in and part of the purpose of my trip 545 00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:14,560 Speaker 2: was to press the Panamanian government and say, look, you 546 00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:16,440 Speaker 2: need to get the Chinese the hell out of here. 547 00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:19,600 Speaker 2: Do not leave them in a position where they can 548 00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:22,680 Speaker 2: shut down this canal, because shutting down this canal would 549 00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:25,120 Speaker 2: be an enormous economic and national security blow to the 550 00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:27,200 Speaker 2: United States, but it would also be an enormous blow 551 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:29,840 Speaker 2: to Panama. And so part of the case I was 552 00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:33,560 Speaker 2: making them is their interests and our interest are aligned. 553 00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:35,800 Speaker 2: They don't want China to be in a position to 554 00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:36,640 Speaker 2: shut down the canal. 555 00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:38,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, great point. 556 00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:40,560 Speaker 1: We're going to continue talking about this issue, I can 557 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:44,200 Speaker 1: promise you on our podcast, So make sure you download 558 00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:47,880 Speaker 1: Vertic with Ted Cruz wherever you get your podcasts. We 559 00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:49,800 Speaker 1: do the show as a podcast three days a week, 560 00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:52,000 Speaker 1: so grab it. You can tell Siria Alexa, hey play 561 00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:55,120 Speaker 1: Vertic with Ted Cruise. That will happen as well, and 562 00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:57,880 Speaker 1: we hope that you'll join us again next weekend here 563 00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:00,680 Speaker 1: wherever you're listening to show, on whatever station you're listening to, 564 00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:02,160 Speaker 1: and then senday and I will see you 565 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:04,720 Speaker 3: Back here on our podcasts all week long.