Speaker 1: Though Joanna Callo and I have very different professions. She's
Speaker 1: a writer, producer, director, most recently of The Bear. Am
Speaker 1: a cook and founder of a restaurant, The River Cafe.
Speaker 1: We have a lot in common, and most of it
Speaker 1: involves drama. Hers is creatively working with actors. Mine is
Speaker 1: creatively working with chefs. People always ask me, how does
Speaker 1: a restaurant work? I'm the Bear. Joanna and her colleagues
Speaker 1: brilliantly answer these questions. A friend of mine just told
Speaker 1: me today that Joanna makes the hardest thing funny with
Speaker 1: likeness and sensitivity, and that she is a great woman.
Speaker 1: So here we are, here in la and I'm in London,
Speaker 1: which is the first mistake of this moment. I wish
Speaker 1: you were here. Are you sitting in your office?
Speaker 2: I am in my office in West LA But I
Speaker 2: I wish I was there more than anything. I think
Speaker 2: I might just get on a plane right now, right now.
Speaker 1: We could go to the River Cafe. Have you ever
Speaker 1: eaten in the River Cafe?
Speaker 2: I haven't. I haven't had the pleasure.
Speaker 1: You've never been. Okay, well we'll do that.
Speaker 2: Well we'll go.
Speaker 1: Maybe you could bring your children. How old are your children?
Speaker 2: Oh? God? Don't let not yet. They're five and two.
Speaker 2: She's ready. She the older one is ready, is ready
Speaker 2: for restaurants. But you don't want the boy anywhere near you.
Speaker 1: I would. The other day I was flying back from
Speaker 1: Milan and I saw this woman with a baby and
Speaker 1: I said, oh, I hope I sit next to you.
Speaker 1: And she said, you're the first person who's ever said that.
Speaker 1: Why would you want to sit next to a baby?
Speaker 1: So I think what we could do is start with
Speaker 1: the recipe, which you've chose. It's Formata d spinachi, and
Speaker 1: perhaps you could read the recipe and then we can
Speaker 1: carry on with our conversation.
Speaker 2: So now you will see that I am the least
Speaker 2: Italian Italian person. Smato d spinachi Serve six one point
Speaker 2: three kilogram spinach stocks removed, two eggs, four hundred milligrams
Speaker 2: double cream. Nope, millileaters, it's very British. One hundred grams fresher,
Speaker 2: grated half teaspoon, grated nutmeg. Preheat the oven two three
Speaker 2: hundred and seventy five fahrenheit. Beat the eggs and cream
Speaker 2: together for a minute in a large bowl. Add the parmesan,
Speaker 2: nutmeg and season. Blanch the spinach for one minute and
Speaker 2: drain well, chop roughly and mix the egg and cream mixture.
Speaker 2: Pour into a medium sized baking dish, and then place
Speaker 2: in the preheated oven for thirty minutes until the top
Speaker 2: is crisp and the spinach is still slightly creamy.
Speaker 1: So tell me about growing up in your household with food.
Speaker 1: Tell me what life was like in your family food wise.
Speaker 2: Well, that's honestly why I chose this recipe. I had
Speaker 2: an interesting childhood, which is that my parents bought a
Speaker 2: house in northern California that we shared with their best friends,
Speaker 2: so we had a little mini commune.
Speaker 1: They shared a house. That's interesting.
Speaker 2: I think we lived upstairs and they lived downstairs. It
Speaker 2: was a duplex in Alameda, and it was really wonderful.
Speaker 2: It was it made me one of six instead of
Speaker 2: one of three, yea. And it means I had four parents.
Speaker 2: And it also meant that my parents and you know,
Speaker 2: my parents' best friends, they were all working, so all
Speaker 2: you needed is one parent to watch all the children.
Speaker 2: But I think that sort of a theme in my
Speaker 2: life is that both my parents worked. My dad was
Speaker 2: a journalist, my mom was a nurse who became a librarian.
Speaker 2: It's like when she was in nursing school, I think
Speaker 2: there was less cooking than when she was working full
Speaker 2: time as a nurse. She still was getting dinner on
Speaker 2: the table, but it was very regulated. It was sort
Speaker 2: of like there are the four dinners that you always make,
Speaker 2: and then you kind of cycle through that, and there's
Speaker 2: something so charming about that, and so like, these meals
Speaker 2: are completely ingrained in our lives. And it was like
Speaker 2: boiled zucchini with melted cheese on it. That was one
Speaker 2: of the things. We ate, Hamburger patties with Campbell's mushroom
Speaker 2: soup poured over it. That's like, I think, very Midwestern,
Speaker 2: you know. And then she is Spanish. She comes from
Speaker 2: Mexican parents, and so she would also make enchiladas that
Speaker 2: were amazing. And my dad is Italian and on the
Speaker 2: weekend when he was home, he would make his sauce
Speaker 2: that cooked all day, and so you know, it definitely
Speaker 2: got to have that. And the family that we lived
Speaker 2: with they were Hispanic also and sort of had a
Speaker 2: closer connection to that Hispanic culture, and so we would
Speaker 2: make Tamali's at Christmas and some of that. And so
Speaker 2: this big spinach made me think about how we used
Speaker 2: to get the frozen spinach, but it was like the
Speaker 2: Stofer's frozen spinach, and it was exactly not exactly this,
Speaker 2: not as good, but the same idea, and you would
Speaker 2: just put it in the oven. And that was how
Speaker 2: they gave us vegetables some nights. And my dad called
Speaker 2: it princess food because it was like a spinach soux fle.
Speaker 2: It was such a good memory. When I was looking
Speaker 2: through the book, I was thinking about that and about
Speaker 2: how you know that is so the act of a
Speaker 2: parent that is trying to do their best, loves their children,
Speaker 2: but also has to put a frozen, yeah, frozen meal
Speaker 2: in the oven because they're because they're working, because they're busy.
Speaker 2: And some of those you know, influences came from my
Speaker 2: other my other family as well, and it brought me
Speaker 2: a lot of joy to see this recipe.
Speaker 1: I'm interested still in the commune, did you have one
Speaker 1: kitchen for the two families? So did you each have
Speaker 1: your separate kitchens?
Speaker 2: Each had separate kitchens, and I think that there were
Speaker 2: sort of different rules in each kitchen so you could
Speaker 2: always have fun.
Speaker 1: What were they What was the difference if it's.
Speaker 2: Not your mother. You're always going to get away with
Speaker 2: a little more, right, So it's like, you know, their
Speaker 2: kids would come to us and we would go up there,
Speaker 2: and you know, we would swap around and try to
Speaker 2: take advantage of the system.
Speaker 1: Is this all your childhood?
Speaker 2: No, not my entire childhood. Maybe when I was five
Speaker 2: or six, we moved to another house. Oh, I see
Speaker 2: in Oakland. And then when I was eight, we moved
Speaker 2: to New Jersey and that was a sort of another
Speaker 2: chunk of life.
Speaker 1: What was that like? New Jersey from California.
Speaker 2: I loved it. I absolutely loved it. It felt like
Speaker 2: I was in a movie with fall in spring and
Speaker 2: snow days, and I definitely romanticize all of it.
Speaker 1: Did you eat differently?
Speaker 2: Yes? I had all the foods that I was supposed
Speaker 2: to have. I ate pizza constantly, bagels constantly.
Speaker 1: Yes. Something I said to me that there was a
Speaker 1: big deal about you eating in a bagel place. Is
Speaker 1: that right? Yes?
Speaker 2: My senior year of high school.
Speaker 1: I don't know. Sometimes I do research for this. What
Speaker 1: was it called begel Chateau? Okay, so this is Willem,
Speaker 1: and I don't know what bagel chateau is.
Speaker 2: It's just the place in my little town. I grew
Speaker 2: up in a small town called Maplewood, but every single
Speaker 2: day for my senior year of high school, I ate
Speaker 2: at the bagel Chateau Good for You. Oh my god.
Speaker 1: Every day, same bagel, are different bagels. You see the
Speaker 1: detail we get into on this, you know, we asked
Speaker 1: the questions that I really bring back the memories.
Speaker 2: Oh my god. Okay, So here here were the things
Speaker 2: I would get. I love a sesame bagel. Love. So
Speaker 2: I mainly get sesame bagel toasted with tuna, and then
Speaker 2: they always put pickles and chips on the side, and
Speaker 2: it was just a really good deal. Pickle and the chips.
Speaker 2: I mean they were probably just from a crappy bag
Speaker 2: but they were spectacular, like little ruffled chips. And I
Speaker 2: dream about those chips still. And then I would also
Speaker 2: sometimes get sesame toasted with cream, cheese and tomato. I
Speaker 2: guess it's the garden state. They were getting good produce,
Speaker 2: you know. The tomatoes were great. They were good, and
Speaker 2: the lettuce was great. You could get like my friends
Speaker 2: would get something called a nothing sandwich, which they stupidly invented.
Speaker 2: It was like a vegetarian sandwich. Just no one to
Speaker 2: call it that basically, but it was just bagel, mustard, tomato, lettuce,
Speaker 2: and then you know, that was it.
Speaker 1: It's like a bet without thecon yeah.
Speaker 2: Without the bacon. But it was like crisp and tasty
Speaker 2: and fresh. And I think some of those things that
Speaker 2: we didn't entirely know we were craving.
Speaker 1: Yet you think it's still there, are still there? It's
Speaker 1: still there. So your parents still live in New Jersey.
Speaker 2: No, my parents actually left when I graduated high school.
Speaker 2: They moved back to Oakland. My mother was I think
Speaker 2: tired of the pizza and the bags. She wanted to
Speaker 2: go back to the Bay Area.
Speaker 1: Food was important growing up. I mean the way you
Speaker 1: described the chips, it sounds like it's important.
Speaker 2: Oh, food was so important. I just loved it. I mean,
Speaker 2: I I think coming from an Italian family a Mexican family,
Speaker 2: that's part of the culture. But when we were living
Speaker 2: in New Jersey, we were very close to where my
Speaker 2: dad grew up. He's from Queen's and so we would
Speaker 2: spend time with our Italian family, and so that's all food.
Speaker 2: It's just about food.
Speaker 1: Did your grandparents were they involved?
Speaker 2: They died when I was younger, but yes, my Italian grandma.
Speaker 2: The favorite thing that she made for me was the
Speaker 2: egg creams, which is just very like New York. We
Speaker 2: would go to her house and she would make egg
Speaker 2: creams for us, and you know, we would eat pasta
Speaker 2: the whole the whole cartoon.
Speaker 1: And what about Mexican food, You know.
Speaker 2: My grandpa would cook for us and he would make
Speaker 2: churiso and eggs, but they were you know, you also
Speaker 2: just sort of go and you get, you get Wendy's.
Speaker 1: Did you go back to Mexico or Italy?
Speaker 2: I have only been to Mexico City and then I've
Speaker 2: been to I've been to Italy, but we kind of
Speaker 2: there's a pilgrimage coming. I think for sure.
Speaker 1: We grew up in this house, surrounded by food, and
Speaker 1: when you left the comfort of this and also a community,
Speaker 1: the idea that you had a house with other people,
Speaker 1: which I actually we always go to Italy in the
Speaker 1: summer and the house is full of families, different families,
Speaker 1: and we're all together and we meet up for breakfast,
Speaker 1: or we meet up for lunch or swim. We do
Speaker 1: all this and then everybody's so happy. This is what
Speaker 1: we love about the summer. And then we all go
Speaker 1: back to our own houses and you think, hmm, you know,
Speaker 1: maybe this is another way of actually living, which we reject,
Speaker 1: you know, from September to June, but then we embrace
Speaker 1: in the summer. You went to college or did you
Speaker 1: start working where.
Speaker 2: I went to UC Santa Barbara, and I was planning
Speaker 2: to study marine biology, and then when I got there,
Speaker 2: there was also a film major. And I don't know,
Speaker 2: I don't know why I hadn't thought about it, because
Speaker 2: I was obsessed with movies always, and I liked to
Speaker 2: sit very close to the television so that I could
Speaker 2: try to go inside. And I didn't think about it
Speaker 2: as a job as a kid. I just thought about
Speaker 2: it as something I loved more than anything. And then
Speaker 2: I realized that my fantasy of being a marine biologist,
Speaker 2: of being on a boat and you know, riding dolphins,
Speaker 2: was really completely a fantasy, and many years in the future,
Speaker 2: whereas I could study film and be lost in film immediately.
Speaker 1: Do you remember you ate in college?
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. Well, my favorite food story from college
Speaker 2: is that, for whatever reason, I guess, I didn't have
Speaker 2: cottage cheese as a child, or that just wasn't like common.
Speaker 2: And then in the dining hall, you could just get
Speaker 2: cottage cheese whenever you wanted, and so I had cottage
Speaker 2: cheese for every meal. And then eventually I was like,
Speaker 2: what am I doing?
Speaker 1: And I could.
Speaker 2: I didn't eat it for probably like ten years after that,
Speaker 2: because I would have it with my eggs, I would
Speaker 2: have it with lunch. I was just so obsessed with it,
Speaker 2: like an insane person. And I also I worked at
Speaker 2: the at the dining hall, which was a very strange
Speaker 2: and interesting experience where I worked in the kitchen. I
Speaker 2: have such a strong memory of how much fun we
Speaker 2: had back there in our hair nets, but also how
Speaker 2: terrible the rubber mats would smell at nights, you know,
Speaker 2: and you would have to hose them down. And I
Speaker 2: was never a waitress because my brain doesn't work that way.
Speaker 2: I can't. I can't handle that responsibility. But I think
Speaker 2: I think waiters have all really hard jobs.
Speaker 1: Don't you do too. I couldn't be a waiter.
Speaker 2: But then I also in high school I worked in
Speaker 2: an ice cream store, this wonderful ice cream store, and
Speaker 2: I have such a I have another really strong memory
Speaker 2: of I would hold the bowl and the person I
Speaker 2: would look at the person and they would tell me
Speaker 2: their order, and by the time I turned around to
Speaker 2: the ice cream machine behind me, I had forgotten. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I just I don't. I wasn't cut out for that life.
Speaker 1: Did you know? The River Cafe has a shop. It's
Speaker 1: full of our favorite foods and designs. We have cookbooks
Speaker 1: and then a Napkins kitchen where toad bags with our signatures,
Speaker 1: glasses from Venice, chocolates from Turin. You can find us
Speaker 1: right next door to the River Cafe in London or
Speaker 1: online at shop Therivercafe dot co dot k. Talking about food,
Speaker 1: talking about being a waiter, talking about the ice cream,
Speaker 1: talking about the chips, leads us into this idea that
Speaker 1: you made with Chris, about food, about restaurants, about the
Speaker 1: drama of a restaurant and the drama of people who
Speaker 1: work in them, the bear.
Speaker 2: It is interesting how it does feel like all these
Speaker 2: things were leading up to he and I meeting in
Speaker 2: order to make the show. But I'll say that one
Speaker 2: of the huge things that happened to me that has
Speaker 2: to do with food was that when I moved to
Speaker 2: la in order to pursue a career in television in
Speaker 2: some form, I started listening to the radio when I
Speaker 2: would drive because I moved to la in nineteen ninety nine. Gosh,
Speaker 2: is that true? That's true. And if there was KCRW,
Speaker 2: there was Morning Becomes Eclectic, and there was Jonathan Gold,
Speaker 2: and listening to him talk about food in the city
Speaker 2: and how food created a city was just life changing
Speaker 2: for me. It just became a real passion for me.
Speaker 2: The idea of the way that a restaurant defines a
Speaker 2: city has like completely stayed with me. His thing about
Speaker 2: eating all the way down Pico and just being invested
Speaker 2: in your town and your city really inspired me. And
Speaker 2: I think similarly, I think Jonathan Gold led me to
Speaker 2: read Ruth Rachel and I'm just so I just adored
Speaker 2: her books. You know, I just love them. I love
Speaker 2: food in books. I just I love it. The idea
Speaker 2: of describing something beautifully and being able to share that
Speaker 2: idea my sister and I both have, like the idea
Speaker 2: of food is sometimes even better than actual food, you know.
Speaker 2: And I think I just loved Ruth Rachel's writing, but
Speaker 2: also her passion I haven't I had.
Speaker 1: That we'll do something. She's a great and you know,
Speaker 1: as you said, beautiful writer. So tell me about how
Speaker 1: did you meet Chris?
Speaker 2: Yes, Chris Doorer is the person who created The Bear,
Speaker 2: and it was really came out of his experiences in
Speaker 2: your world. His sister, Coco was a chef, but I think, yeah,
Speaker 2: he also had his own love of not just all food,
Speaker 2: but I think particularly he had a point of view
Speaker 2: on the world of fine dining, what was positive about it,
Speaker 2: what was negative, but also that it was just amazing
Speaker 2: that it was this secret world. And he had written
Speaker 2: a movie that was sort of The Bear and then
Speaker 2: decided to turn it into a TV show. And I
Speaker 2: had been writing for many years. And we met in
Speaker 2: the most boring way, which is literally my manager was like,
Speaker 2: do you want to meet this guy? And I was like, oh,
Speaker 2: I guess. And we zoomed during the pandemic and I
Speaker 2: had read some of his scripts. I just thought, not
Speaker 2: only did I love the way he wrote, but I
Speaker 2: mainly was like, I love this world, you know, for
Speaker 2: all the reasons that we're talking about, And it was
Speaker 2: really exciting to me. We didn't know each other, we'd
Speaker 2: never met. We just met on a computer and then
Speaker 2: we got on the phone and talked because I wanted
Speaker 2: to make sure I connected with him personally and before
Speaker 2: we sort of launched into this whole thing's some kind
Speaker 2: of working relationship, and it just felt like I had
Speaker 2: known him my whole life. I think it has to
Speaker 2: feel that way. I've felt. I mean, I've experienced different
Speaker 2: kinds of partnerships, and I think you either have this
Speaker 2: like partner chemistry or you don't. And I think I
Speaker 2: just had this instinct that we had something in common.
Speaker 1: How did you work together, how did you work how
Speaker 1: did you write together?
Speaker 2: You know, it's changed. In the beginning, we were just
Speaker 2: sort of trying to see if we could get FX
Speaker 2: to let us make the pilot, so that meant that
Speaker 2: I just gave him feedback and I was like, what
Speaker 2: if we try this, or this is great, or let's
Speaker 2: move this up or you know, I think not too surprisingly.
Speaker 2: He had created the character of Sydney and she was
Speaker 2: very much based on Cocoa, but when I first read
Speaker 2: the scripts, she didn't appear until episode three, and I said,
Speaker 2: I really like that girl character. Can we move her up?
Speaker 1: Hi? Hello, Hi, I'm Sydney. I called about the suposition, and.
Speaker 2: The fact that he was like, yeah, let's do it,
Speaker 2: I think was sort of the beginning of just us
Speaker 2: being able to push each other and change things, but
Speaker 2: always with keeping what's special about his voice?
Speaker 1: What's you ps? That's in Chicago or United Parcel Service?
Speaker 2: The one's the male?
Speaker 1: Yeah, you would you do for them?
Speaker 2: Sometimes I'm just helping him with his scripts. Sometimes we're
Speaker 2: writing together, sometimes all outline and then he'll write. Sometimes
Speaker 2: we'll share. Sometimes he'll write scenes, all write scenes. Sometimes
Speaker 2: I'll just write a script on myself.
Speaker 1: That's the thing.
Speaker 2: It's completely fluid and there is no one way, which
Speaker 2: makes it really thrilling.
Speaker 1: Okay, so you know the drill. We uh, you're gonna
Speaker 1: make family. Just meet plus three and we weat around two.
Speaker 2: Yeah, heard, dope.
Speaker 3: Cool.
Speaker 1: There are so many parallels between writing and cooking and
Speaker 1: teaching a chef to make a sauce or working with
Speaker 1: an actor to create a scene. And I think that
Speaker 1: restaurants are quite dramatic places. There's the drama between the
Speaker 1: chef and the other chefs. There's a drama between the
Speaker 1: chefs and the waiters and the waiters and the customers
Speaker 1: and the customers and each other. You know, you see
Speaker 1: people crying in restaurants. We've seen it in your series
Speaker 1: We've seen the intimacy between people who are doing repetitive work.
Speaker 1: You emote, it's very emotional and it's very personal. Do
Speaker 1: you think, Oh, I couldn't agree more.
Speaker 2: I don't think it had occurred to me how many
Speaker 2: similarities there are into my business and to being a chef.
Speaker 2: But they're so similar, and I think at the core
Speaker 2: of that is just passionate people, feeling people, and also
Speaker 2: just the humanity. Right, It's like, that's what I love
Speaker 2: about the Bear, you know, especially season one, is like
Speaker 2: they're all jammed into this tiny space, and so you
Speaker 2: have really different kinds of people. Some are leaders, some
Speaker 2: are followers, some are aggressive, some are soft, Some are
Speaker 2: doing the repetitive stuff and that's where they feel best.
Speaker 2: Some want to create, you know, and they're all within
Speaker 2: two inches of each other. I mean, that's insane.
Speaker 1: I have a conversation for a second. Whoa is this?
Speaker 2: This is Sydney. I'm starving today.
Speaker 1: You're wading today, Sydney. She's helping us out today. Cousin,
Speaker 1: you ordered different mannais bro banana? Oh you shof?
Speaker 2: Oh you shift this bif He was using them to
Speaker 2: make a giant knuckle.
Speaker 1: It's a play on a panatonia would have been beautiful
Speaker 1: if you let me finish something. Colusene Richie Jeremovich, pleasure
Speaker 1: to meet you, sweetheart, say sweetheart, farm you're so woof.
Speaker 2: I mean nothing by it, Sydney sat Sweetheart's just part
Speaker 2: of our Italian hair.
Speaker 1: Okay, listen, I'm trying to talk to you. Okay, don't
Speaker 1: be rude and start doing a million things like the
Speaker 1: smartest we have in the River Cafe an open kitchen.
Speaker 1: There's no wool between the person who's eating and ourselves.
Speaker 1: And when we first opened, a friend of mine who's
Speaker 1: the theater director, came and I said, doesn't it look
Speaker 1: like theater and he said, no, actually looks like ballet.
Speaker 1: Because everybody is moving, nobody can shout. We all go
Speaker 1: next to each other. We you know, we move around
Speaker 1: the kitchen and speak very softly. But I think that
Speaker 1: it was also interesting for me to see in your
Speaker 1: kitchens a kind of way of growing forward. You know
Speaker 1: that how we move this profession of being a chef
Speaker 1: into being like a lawyer, like a journalist, And that's
Speaker 1: kind of what you want to achieve. You want that
Speaker 1: energy and that drama, but you also want it to
Speaker 1: be fair and you want it to be hope rather
Speaker 1: than fear.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, yes, of course we do. And also
Speaker 2: I am really interested in this idea that I think
Speaker 2: we're always circling on the show, which is where do
Speaker 2: the heart edges fit in our lives? Do we need that?
Speaker 2: Do we need anger? Do we need release? Are we?
Speaker 2: Are we all trying a little too hard to push
Speaker 2: away the part of us that's saying that there's a
Speaker 2: darkness too? How does the darkness benefit us? You know,
Speaker 2: does it? You know? I just I think I don't know.
Speaker 2: I'm interested in that for sure.
Speaker 1: Tell me about one of the episodes that you directed
Speaker 1: that you'd like to talk about.
Speaker 2: Oh, my gosh, I mean, I'll talk about in season two,
Speaker 2: I directed the episode where Sydney is going out and
Speaker 2: eating everywhere. Yeah, because that seems the most relevant. But
Speaker 2: I will say it was so hard. I mean, it
Speaker 2: was so challenging. We shot in so many locations all
Speaker 2: over the city, interrupting these restaurants that were just trying
Speaker 2: to do business, but they opened their doors to us.
Speaker 2: You know. It was such a special look into how
Speaker 2: those kitchens work because it was kind of like half
Speaker 2: documentary half, you know, fiction, and so that was such
Speaker 2: a challenge to try to really tell honest stories about
Speaker 2: the people that worked there and to use real chefs.
Speaker 2: But also they have to act and they have to
Speaker 2: say lines, and I had to figure out how to
Speaker 2: direct non actors. And then you had Io eating every
Speaker 2: single food, every single thing. And I was so proud
Speaker 2: of her. I was so proud because it's hard. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's hard to just eat and like you know that
Speaker 2: moment when you're eating and then it's like you take
Speaker 2: one too many bites and it's no longer food, it's
Speaker 2: just like matter in your mouth. I'm always delighted by
Speaker 2: that experience, and I pushed beyond that and really put
Speaker 2: a beautiful performance on the screen.
Speaker 1: We wanted to talk about the pasta, but why don't
Speaker 1: you ask?
Speaker 2: Well?
Speaker 3: I love the episode because there are two scenes that
Speaker 3: stand out to me. One is the beautiful way you
Speaker 3: show the montage the pasta's on the plate, which is
Speaker 3: so beautiful. It really crosses, like you say, in the
Speaker 3: line of art and documentary and fiction in the episode.
Speaker 3: But I also love where Carme and Sider in the
Speaker 3: kitchen testing this past the recipe together over his kitchen table,
Speaker 3: And I like the idea of when there are scenes
Speaker 3: like that, does it is it the food that influences
Speaker 3: the scene or is it the other way around? What
Speaker 3: food would involve both of them?
Speaker 2: That's such a good question. I love that scene too,
Speaker 2: because I think, are you talking about the one where
Speaker 2: they taste it and it's bad?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Oh, oh my god, chef, that's way too
Speaker 1: much as oh my god, oh did I fuck up
Speaker 1: your recipe? Or no? I must have just given you
Speaker 1: the wrong account. It's fine.
Speaker 2: Wait do you need rule it or something? Did I
Speaker 2: give you heartburn?
Speaker 1: Because I've no, no, no, no, no, no, it's I'm sorry.
Speaker 1: I'm sign.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 1: I loved that.
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, it's so funny to be like, yeah,
Speaker 2: sometimes it's bad, right, Like we I realized we hadn't
Speaker 2: seen that, you know what I mean, we hadn't seen
Speaker 2: the mistake and that that's obviously such a such a
Speaker 2: character moment too. But but I just liked the idea
Speaker 2: that we often see in movies when they take the
Speaker 2: bite and it's delicious, but I hadn't seen the other thing.
Speaker 2: But I think for us it's really it's all connected.
Speaker 2: Like sometimes we'll write in a script a certain food
Speaker 2: right for that scene, a certain dish. But then when
Speaker 2: you get into pre production, you actually sit down with
Speaker 2: Mattie Matheson and Courtney Store, who you know are our
Speaker 2: food consultants, and we create a whole menu, not just
Speaker 2: for the restaurant but for the show. So we worked
Speaker 2: backwards because we were like, Okay, at the end of
Speaker 2: the season, she's going to have this version of this dish.
Speaker 2: So then working backwards, what do we need that to be?
Speaker 2: And we really we had this idea of doing this
Speaker 2: ravioli thing you guys are talking about in sort of
Speaker 2: the visual connections of ravioli and revoli, connection to dumplings
Speaker 2: and to Parogi's, and sort of just this idea of
Speaker 2: just like stuffed pasta, right, So we wanted it all
Speaker 2: to be connected. So it could have honestly been anything,
Speaker 2: but we sort of tried to make it cohesive so
Speaker 2: that you could follow her thinking and her creative path
Speaker 2: through the whole season.
Speaker 1: Do you think differently about food? Do you think that
Speaker 1: working in this way where food has become a performance,
Speaker 1: it's become visual, it's so many people involved, has that
Speaker 1: intimacy that you had Chateau bagel or living with your mother.
Speaker 1: How does that translate? That's an interesting question.
Speaker 2: I mean, I think for the most part, I still
Speaker 2: feel like the small moments at home are the best
Speaker 2: food moments. You know, when I cook for my kids,
Speaker 2: my daughter wants pesto pasta, they want pretzels, they want
Speaker 2: good pretzels, they want tasty honey pretzels. Like it's just
Speaker 2: it's the simple things that actually make your life go around.
Speaker 2: I do feel really lucky to have been able to
Speaker 2: go to some really good restaurants because of the show,
Speaker 2: and it's still so magical and so special. Thinking about
Speaker 2: it so much, I do feel worried about food waste
Speaker 2: and all the unpleasantries of the business of food, and
Speaker 2: how I'm so privileged to get to go to some
Speaker 2: of the places that I get to go, and so,
Speaker 2: you know, I think I worry about that sometimes, but
Speaker 2: for the most part, I still think food is spectacular
Speaker 2: and makes world go round.
Speaker 1: Tell me about the women chefs that you met. Let's
Speaker 1: talk about women.
Speaker 2: I love talking about women. I mean, I'll start with
Speaker 2: Courtney with Coco, what a force, but also what a
Speaker 2: beautiful connector of people she was with me when we
Speaker 2: were shooting that episode with Sydney out in the city
Speaker 2: and we were in this parogi place that's been there
Speaker 2: forever in Chicago, and she said, come here, come with me,
Speaker 2: and we walked into the back and she was like,
Speaker 2: it's all women. Also, that idea that you could just
Speaker 2: walk into the back of a restaurant, it's so crazy,
Speaker 2: you know, that's so cool, But she just was. She
Speaker 2: took my hand and we walked in the back and
Speaker 2: it was all Polish women and it was this very
Speaker 2: beautiful thing, and she was like, do you see. And
Speaker 2: I think she completely opened my eyes to this thing
Speaker 2: where there is such a tradition of male chefs, right,
Speaker 2: and we are dealing with that in our show, and
Speaker 2: obviously so many of our famous chefs are male. That
Speaker 2: is just the world. But her showing me that these
Speaker 2: kitchens are full of women and talking to me about
Speaker 2: how does a woman communicate versus how a man communicates
Speaker 2: the kitchen has been just so inspirational and such an
Speaker 2: important part of the show. And so, I mean, cop
Speaker 2: is my number one woman in food And.
Speaker 1: Do you feel is there a parallel in television?
Speaker 2: Oh? Yes, oh yes, oh yes, I mean I think
Speaker 2: that idea of trying to figure out what tone of
Speaker 2: voice to use, Like my voice is kind of low,
Speaker 2: and then thinking about, well do I use that low
Speaker 2: voice or do I use my little voice? You know,
Speaker 2: those kinds of questions are things that I have had
Speaker 2: to navigate as a director. You know, as a writer,
Speaker 2: it's easier. You kind of just sit and you press
Speaker 2: your little buttons, and for me, I find that really easy.
Speaker 2: But being a director has really been in experience in
Speaker 2: trying to figure out how to be a female on set.
Speaker 1: Do you find it a lonely place? Yes?
Speaker 2: I think directing is lonely in general, and Chris and
Speaker 2: I have talked about that. Obviously, I'm still learning. Maybe
Speaker 2: when I'm better at it, I'll feel differently. But I
Speaker 2: think directors are also siloed from each other too, you know.
Speaker 2: So it's because you don't direct together. You all have
Speaker 2: these different ways of doing it. There isn't really an
Speaker 2: easy way to compare and contrast. So even though you're
Speaker 2: collaborating with each person on the set, ultimately you are
Speaker 2: in your own lay and it's definitely lonely. Is being
Speaker 2: a chef lonely?
Speaker 1: Yeah? I was going to say that's a coco. When
Speaker 1: I spoke to her today, she said, I love being
Speaker 1: a chef and being in a restaurant is that it's
Speaker 1: very very collaborative. You know that if someone doesn't chop
Speaker 1: the PARSI then you can't make the sauce. If someone
Speaker 1: is late. I would say it's a very good place
Speaker 1: for young people to work because if you're late, you
Speaker 1: don't get in trouble with your boss, You get in
Speaker 1: trouble with you know, the people who are depending you
Speaker 1: on you, and so it teaches you that collaboration. But
Speaker 1: I think that what we're all trying to learn is
Speaker 1: how you give feedback, how you give criticism, how you
Speaker 1: take criticism. All that. And I started the restaurant with
Speaker 1: another woman, with Rose Gray, and we have had a
Speaker 1: very strong percentage of women in every role. I don't
Speaker 1: necessarily think women cook differently than men. I don't go
Speaker 1: for that. You know, we cook with more gentleness or
Speaker 1: more love or more attention. But the dynamic in the
Speaker 1: kitchen when you have women and men together as opposed
Speaker 1: to men or just women, is really apparent.
Speaker 2: Yes, I think you're right, and I'm excited to explore
Speaker 2: that more. What is it like to be on a
Speaker 2: set with more women. What is it like to be
Speaker 2: on a set that's fifty to fifty? You know, I
Speaker 2: just don't know.
Speaker 3: Ye know.
Speaker 2: I think those are things that I want to experience.
Speaker 1: And so what are you working on now?
Speaker 2: We are writing season three of The Bear. That's really fun.
Speaker 2: That's the easy part.
Speaker 1: You're not on zoom calls with Chris? Are you together
Speaker 1: in an office?
Speaker 2: No? We do zoom unfortunately. But I think we're going
Speaker 2: to try to have dinner in a couple of weeks.
Speaker 1: Where would the two of you go? Do you have
Speaker 1: the same taste in food?
Speaker 2: We want to go to New York. We want to
Speaker 2: meet up in New York and go eat some good food.
Speaker 2: That's our plan.
Speaker 1: Do you read out much? Do you go? Can you
Speaker 1: take the children?
Speaker 2: Or do I ditch the children and I go out?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 2: That's I mean. I love my kids so much, but
Speaker 2: I think eating out is such a luxury and it
Speaker 2: needs to be not about telling them to be quiet,
Speaker 2: because they deserve to be loud.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Okay. If you like listening to Ruthie's Table for
Speaker 1: would you please make sure to rate and review the
Speaker 1: podcast on the iHeartRadio app. Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. Thank you. We're talking about drama,
Speaker 1: we're talking about food. We're talking about the brilliant, beautiful
Speaker 1: series you've given us. You know that I think you've
Speaker 1: made people want to know about restaurants. You people wanted
Speaker 1: to know about cooking. You've had empathy for people who
Speaker 1: are either behind the kitchen or in front of you,
Speaker 1: or who are grilling. Who are the curtain goes up
Speaker 1: and everyone sits down, and I think on the path
Speaker 1: of everyone, we thank you. It's very interesting how I
Speaker 1: talk to the chefs about it. You know that everybody
Speaker 1: in the River Cafe is watching it, and we talk
Speaker 1: about it, and we relate to it, and we say
Speaker 1: what's different about our environment to the environment we see.
Speaker 1: But there is a real representation I think that you've
Speaker 1: created for us.
Speaker 2: That's so wonderful. I mean, we are so grateful that
Speaker 2: people are watching like truly. I mean, I had no
Speaker 2: idea that people would respond to it this way, but
Speaker 2: I'm so glad and so grateful, and I also just
Speaker 2: it's really nice to have something to connect over. I
Speaker 2: do think that's something I miss about television when I
Speaker 2: was younger was because there were less shows, you could
Speaker 2: kind of really connect. Everyone sort of had a moment
Speaker 2: to say, well, what does this make you feel? What
Speaker 2: do you like about it? You know whatever, even just
Speaker 2: saying your little catchphrases or whatever. It's like, that's a
Speaker 2: way for us to have a community. And so it's
Speaker 2: so lovely that people are feeling connected.
Speaker 1: We are we are connected. Food is connection, dramas connection.
Speaker 1: People are connection. And my last question to you is comfort.
Speaker 1: You've described the joyousness of eating, and the joyousness of
Speaker 1: feeding your children, and the joyousness of your parents' kitchens.
Speaker 1: But sometimes we do need comfort in food. And I
Speaker 1: was wondering if for my last question, the channa is
Speaker 1: what is the food you might turn to if you
Speaker 1: need comfort? Ruthie, I think you know what it is.
Speaker 2: It's bagel, bag old cream cheese, and I want potato
Speaker 2: chips on the side.
Speaker 1: Well, we will find that when I see you in
Speaker 1: New York or in London. We'll just go and we'll
Speaker 1: eat at the River Cafe and I'll take you in
Speaker 1: the kitchen. But most of all, thank you, thank you,
Speaker 1: Thanks bye bye.
Speaker 3: Ruthie's Table Floor is produced by Atami Studios for iHeartRadio
Speaker 3: is hosted by Ruthie Rodgers. It's produced by William Lensky
Speaker 3: for Executive producers are Zad Rogers and facetew Our production
Speaker 3: manager is Caitlin Parafle. Our production coordinator is Bella Celina.
Speaker 3: Special thanks to every
Speaker 2: Ne