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Speaker 1: Though Joanna Callo and I have very different professions. She's

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Speaker 1: a writer, producer, director, most recently of The Bear. Am

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Speaker 1: a cook and founder of a restaurant, The River Cafe.

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Speaker 1: We have a lot in common, and most of it

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Speaker 1: involves drama. Hers is creatively working with actors. Mine is

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Speaker 1: creatively working with chefs. People always ask me, how does

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Speaker 1: a restaurant work? I'm the Bear. Joanna and her colleagues

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Speaker 1: brilliantly answer these questions. A friend of mine just told

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Speaker 1: me today that Joanna makes the hardest thing funny with

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Speaker 1: likeness and sensitivity, and that she is a great woman.

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Speaker 1: So here we are, here in la and I'm in London,

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Speaker 1: which is the first mistake of this moment. I wish

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Speaker 1: you were here. Are you sitting in your office?

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Speaker 2: I am in my office in West LA But I

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Speaker 2: I wish I was there more than anything. I think

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Speaker 2: I might just get on a plane right now, right now.

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Speaker 1: We could go to the River Cafe. Have you ever

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Speaker 1: eaten in the River Cafe?

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Speaker 2: I haven't. I haven't had the pleasure.

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Speaker 1: You've never been. Okay, well we'll do that.

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Speaker 2: Well we'll go.

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Speaker 1: Maybe you could bring your children. How old are your children?

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Speaker 2: Oh? God? Don't let not yet. They're five and two.

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Speaker 2: She's ready. She the older one is ready, is ready

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Speaker 2: for restaurants. But you don't want the boy anywhere near you.

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Speaker 1: I would. The other day I was flying back from

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Speaker 1: Milan and I saw this woman with a baby and

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Speaker 1: I said, oh, I hope I sit next to you.

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Speaker 1: And she said, you're the first person who's ever said that.

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Speaker 1: Why would you want to sit next to a baby?

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Speaker 1: So I think what we could do is start with

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Speaker 1: the recipe, which you've chose. It's Formata d spinachi, and

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Speaker 1: perhaps you could read the recipe and then we can

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Speaker 1: carry on with our conversation.

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Speaker 2: So now you will see that I am the least

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Speaker 2: Italian Italian person. Smato d spinachi Serve six one point

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Speaker 2: three kilogram spinach stocks removed, two eggs, four hundred milligrams

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Speaker 2: double cream. Nope, millileaters, it's very British. One hundred grams fresher,

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Speaker 2: grated half teaspoon, grated nutmeg. Preheat the oven two three

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Speaker 2: hundred and seventy five fahrenheit. Beat the eggs and cream

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Speaker 2: together for a minute in a large bowl. Add the parmesan,

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Speaker 2: nutmeg and season. Blanch the spinach for one minute and

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Speaker 2: drain well, chop roughly and mix the egg and cream mixture.

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Speaker 2: Pour into a medium sized baking dish, and then place

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Speaker 2: in the preheated oven for thirty minutes until the top

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Speaker 2: is crisp and the spinach is still slightly creamy.

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Speaker 1: So tell me about growing up in your household with food.

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Speaker 1: Tell me what life was like in your family food wise.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's honestly why I chose this recipe. I had

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Speaker 2: an interesting childhood, which is that my parents bought a

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Speaker 2: house in northern California that we shared with their best friends,

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Speaker 2: so we had a little mini commune.

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Speaker 1: They shared a house. That's interesting.

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Speaker 2: I think we lived upstairs and they lived downstairs. It

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Speaker 2: was a duplex in Alameda, and it was really wonderful.

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Speaker 2: It was it made me one of six instead of

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Speaker 2: one of three, yea. And it means I had four parents.

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Speaker 2: And it also meant that my parents and you know,

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Speaker 2: my parents' best friends, they were all working, so all

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Speaker 2: you needed is one parent to watch all the children.

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Speaker 2: But I think that sort of a theme in my

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Speaker 2: life is that both my parents worked. My dad was

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Speaker 2: a journalist, my mom was a nurse who became a librarian.

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Speaker 2: It's like when she was in nursing school, I think

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Speaker 2: there was less cooking than when she was working full

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Speaker 2: time as a nurse. She still was getting dinner on

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Speaker 2: the table, but it was very regulated. It was sort

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Speaker 2: of like there are the four dinners that you always make,

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Speaker 2: and then you kind of cycle through that, and there's

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Speaker 2: something so charming about that, and so like, these meals

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Speaker 2: are completely ingrained in our lives. And it was like

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Speaker 2: boiled zucchini with melted cheese on it. That was one

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Speaker 2: of the things. We ate, Hamburger patties with Campbell's mushroom

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Speaker 2: soup poured over it. That's like, I think, very Midwestern,

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Speaker 2: you know. And then she is Spanish. She comes from

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Speaker 2: Mexican parents, and so she would also make enchiladas that

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Speaker 2: were amazing. And my dad is Italian and on the

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Speaker 2: weekend when he was home, he would make his sauce

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Speaker 2: that cooked all day, and so you know, it definitely

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Speaker 2: got to have that. And the family that we lived

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Speaker 2: with they were Hispanic also and sort of had a

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Speaker 2: closer connection to that Hispanic culture, and so we would

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Speaker 2: make Tamali's at Christmas and some of that. And so

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Speaker 2: this big spinach made me think about how we used

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Speaker 2: to get the frozen spinach, but it was like the

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Speaker 2: Stofer's frozen spinach, and it was exactly not exactly this,

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Speaker 2: not as good, but the same idea, and you would

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Speaker 2: just put it in the oven. And that was how

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Speaker 2: they gave us vegetables some nights. And my dad called

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Speaker 2: it princess food because it was like a spinach soux fle.

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Speaker 2: It was such a good memory. When I was looking

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Speaker 2: through the book, I was thinking about that and about

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Speaker 2: how you know that is so the act of a

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Speaker 2: parent that is trying to do their best, loves their children,

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Speaker 2: but also has to put a frozen, yeah, frozen meal

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Speaker 2: in the oven because they're because they're working, because they're busy.

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Speaker 2: And some of those you know, influences came from my

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Speaker 2: other my other family as well, and it brought me

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Speaker 2: a lot of joy to see this recipe.

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Speaker 1: I'm interested still in the commune, did you have one

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Speaker 1: kitchen for the two families? So did you each have

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Speaker 1: your separate kitchens?

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Speaker 2: Each had separate kitchens, and I think that there were

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Speaker 2: sort of different rules in each kitchen so you could

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Speaker 2: always have fun.

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Speaker 1: What were they What was the difference if it's.

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Speaker 2: Not your mother. You're always going to get away with

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Speaker 2: a little more, right, So it's like, you know, their

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Speaker 2: kids would come to us and we would go up there,

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Speaker 2: and you know, we would swap around and try to

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Speaker 2: take advantage of the system.

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Speaker 1: Is this all your childhood?

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Speaker 2: No, not my entire childhood. Maybe when I was five

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Speaker 2: or six, we moved to another house. Oh, I see

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Speaker 2: in Oakland. And then when I was eight, we moved

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Speaker 2: to New Jersey and that was a sort of another

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Speaker 2: chunk of life.

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Speaker 1: What was that like? New Jersey from California.

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Speaker 2: I loved it. I absolutely loved it. It felt like

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Speaker 2: I was in a movie with fall in spring and

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Speaker 2: snow days, and I definitely romanticize all of it.

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Speaker 1: Did you eat differently?

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Speaker 2: Yes? I had all the foods that I was supposed

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Speaker 2: to have. I ate pizza constantly, bagels constantly.

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Speaker 1: Yes. Something I said to me that there was a

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Speaker 1: big deal about you eating in a bagel place. Is

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Speaker 1: that right? Yes?

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Speaker 2: My senior year of high school.

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Speaker 1: I don't know. Sometimes I do research for this. What

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Speaker 1: was it called begel Chateau? Okay, so this is Willem,

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Speaker 1: and I don't know what bagel chateau is.

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Speaker 2: It's just the place in my little town. I grew

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Speaker 2: up in a small town called Maplewood, but every single

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Speaker 2: day for my senior year of high school, I ate

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Speaker 2: at the bagel Chateau Good for You. Oh my god.

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Speaker 1: Every day, same bagel, are different bagels. You see the

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Speaker 1: detail we get into on this, you know, we asked

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Speaker 1: the questions that I really bring back the memories.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god. Okay, So here here were the things

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Speaker 2: I would get. I love a sesame bagel. Love. So

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Speaker 2: I mainly get sesame bagel toasted with tuna, and then

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Speaker 2: they always put pickles and chips on the side, and

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Speaker 2: it was just a really good deal. Pickle and the chips.

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Speaker 2: I mean they were probably just from a crappy bag

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Speaker 2: but they were spectacular, like little ruffled chips. And I

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Speaker 2: dream about those chips still. And then I would also

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Speaker 2: sometimes get sesame toasted with cream, cheese and tomato. I

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Speaker 2: guess it's the garden state. They were getting good produce,

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Speaker 2: you know. The tomatoes were great. They were good, and

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Speaker 2: the lettuce was great. You could get like my friends

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Speaker 2: would get something called a nothing sandwich, which they stupidly invented.

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Speaker 2: It was like a vegetarian sandwich. Just no one to

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Speaker 2: call it that basically, but it was just bagel, mustard, tomato, lettuce,

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Speaker 2: and then you know, that was it.

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Speaker 1: It's like a bet without thecon yeah.

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Speaker 2: Without the bacon. But it was like crisp and tasty

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Speaker 2: and fresh. And I think some of those things that

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Speaker 2: we didn't entirely know we were craving.

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Speaker 1: Yet you think it's still there, are still there? It's

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Speaker 1: still there. So your parents still live in New Jersey.

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Speaker 2: No, my parents actually left when I graduated high school.

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Speaker 2: They moved back to Oakland. My mother was I think

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Speaker 2: tired of the pizza and the bags. She wanted to

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Speaker 2: go back to the Bay Area.

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Speaker 1: Food was important growing up. I mean the way you

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Speaker 1: described the chips, it sounds like it's important.

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Speaker 2: Oh, food was so important. I just loved it. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I I think coming from an Italian family a Mexican family,

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Speaker 2: that's part of the culture. But when we were living

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Speaker 2: in New Jersey, we were very close to where my

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Speaker 2: dad grew up. He's from Queen's and so we would

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Speaker 2: spend time with our Italian family, and so that's all food.

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Speaker 2: It's just about food.

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Speaker 1: Did your grandparents were they involved?

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Speaker 2: They died when I was younger, but yes, my Italian grandma.

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Speaker 2: The favorite thing that she made for me was the

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Speaker 2: egg creams, which is just very like New York. We

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Speaker 2: would go to her house and she would make egg

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Speaker 2: creams for us, and you know, we would eat pasta

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Speaker 2: the whole the whole cartoon.

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Speaker 1: And what about Mexican food, You know.

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Speaker 2: My grandpa would cook for us and he would make

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Speaker 2: churiso and eggs, but they were you know, you also

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Speaker 2: just sort of go and you get, you get Wendy's.

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Speaker 1: Did you go back to Mexico or Italy?

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Speaker 2: I have only been to Mexico City and then I've

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Speaker 2: been to I've been to Italy, but we kind of

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Speaker 2: there's a pilgrimage coming. I think for sure.

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Speaker 1: We grew up in this house, surrounded by food, and

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Speaker 1: when you left the comfort of this and also a community,

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Speaker 1: the idea that you had a house with other people,

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Speaker 1: which I actually we always go to Italy in the

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Speaker 1: summer and the house is full of families, different families,

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Speaker 1: and we're all together and we meet up for breakfast,

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Speaker 1: or we meet up for lunch or swim. We do

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Speaker 1: all this and then everybody's so happy. This is what

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Speaker 1: we love about the summer. And then we all go

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Speaker 1: back to our own houses and you think, hmm, you know,

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Speaker 1: maybe this is another way of actually living, which we reject,

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Speaker 1: you know, from September to June, but then we embrace

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Speaker 1: in the summer. You went to college or did you

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Speaker 1: start working where.

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Speaker 2: I went to UC Santa Barbara, and I was planning

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Speaker 2: to study marine biology, and then when I got there,

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Speaker 2: there was also a film major. And I don't know,

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Speaker 2: I don't know why I hadn't thought about it, because

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Speaker 2: I was obsessed with movies always, and I liked to

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Speaker 2: sit very close to the television so that I could

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Speaker 2: try to go inside. And I didn't think about it

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Speaker 2: as a job as a kid. I just thought about

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Speaker 2: it as something I loved more than anything. And then

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Speaker 2: I realized that my fantasy of being a marine biologist,

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Speaker 2: of being on a boat and you know, riding dolphins,

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Speaker 2: was really completely a fantasy, and many years in the future,

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Speaker 2: whereas I could study film and be lost in film immediately.

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Speaker 1: Do you remember you ate in college?

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Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. Well, my favorite food story from college

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Speaker 2: is that, for whatever reason, I guess, I didn't have

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Speaker 2: cottage cheese as a child, or that just wasn't like common.

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Speaker 2: And then in the dining hall, you could just get

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Speaker 2: cottage cheese whenever you wanted, and so I had cottage

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Speaker 2: cheese for every meal. And then eventually I was like,

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Speaker 2: what am I doing?

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Speaker 1: And I could.

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Speaker 2: I didn't eat it for probably like ten years after that,

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Speaker 2: because I would have it with my eggs, I would

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Speaker 2: have it with lunch. I was just so obsessed with it,

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Speaker 2: like an insane person. And I also I worked at

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Speaker 2: the at the dining hall, which was a very strange

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Speaker 2: and interesting experience where I worked in the kitchen. I

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Speaker 2: have such a strong memory of how much fun we

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Speaker 2: had back there in our hair nets, but also how

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Speaker 2: terrible the rubber mats would smell at nights, you know,

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Speaker 2: and you would have to hose them down. And I

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Speaker 2: was never a waitress because my brain doesn't work that way.

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Speaker 2: I can't. I can't handle that responsibility. But I think

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Speaker 2: I think waiters have all really hard jobs.

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Speaker 1: Don't you do too. I couldn't be a waiter.

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Speaker 2: But then I also in high school I worked in

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Speaker 2: an ice cream store, this wonderful ice cream store, and

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Speaker 2: I have such a I have another really strong memory

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Speaker 2: of I would hold the bowl and the person I

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Speaker 2: would look at the person and they would tell me

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Speaker 2: their order, and by the time I turned around to

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Speaker 2: the ice cream machine behind me, I had forgotten. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I just I don't. I wasn't cut out for that life.

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Speaker 1: Did you know? The River Cafe has a shop. It's

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Speaker 1: full of our favorite foods and designs. We have cookbooks

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Speaker 1: and then a Napkins kitchen where toad bags with our signatures,

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Speaker 1: glasses from Venice, chocolates from Turin. You can find us

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Speaker 1: right next door to the River Cafe in London or

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Speaker 1: online at shop Therivercafe dot co dot k. Talking about food,

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Speaker 1: talking about being a waiter, talking about the ice cream,

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Speaker 1: talking about the chips, leads us into this idea that

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Speaker 1: you made with Chris, about food, about restaurants, about the

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Speaker 1: drama of a restaurant and the drama of people who

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Speaker 1: work in them, the bear.

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Speaker 2: It is interesting how it does feel like all these

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Speaker 2: things were leading up to he and I meeting in

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Speaker 2: order to make the show. But I'll say that one

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Speaker 2: of the huge things that happened to me that has

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Speaker 2: to do with food was that when I moved to

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Speaker 2: la in order to pursue a career in television in

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Speaker 2: some form, I started listening to the radio when I

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Speaker 2: would drive because I moved to la in nineteen ninety nine. Gosh,

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Speaker 2: is that true? That's true. And if there was KCRW,

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Speaker 2: there was Morning Becomes Eclectic, and there was Jonathan Gold,

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Speaker 2: and listening to him talk about food in the city

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Speaker 2: and how food created a city was just life changing

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Speaker 2: for me. It just became a real passion for me.

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Speaker 2: The idea of the way that a restaurant defines a

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Speaker 2: city has like completely stayed with me. His thing about

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Speaker 2: eating all the way down Pico and just being invested

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Speaker 2: in your town and your city really inspired me. And

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Speaker 2: I think similarly, I think Jonathan Gold led me to

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Speaker 2: read Ruth Rachel and I'm just so I just adored

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Speaker 2: her books. You know, I just love them. I love

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Speaker 2: food in books. I just I love it. The idea

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Speaker 2: of describing something beautifully and being able to share that

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Speaker 2: idea my sister and I both have, like the idea

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Speaker 2: of food is sometimes even better than actual food, you know.

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Speaker 2: And I think I just loved Ruth Rachel's writing, but

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Speaker 2: also her passion I haven't I had.

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Speaker 1: That we'll do something. She's a great and you know,

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Speaker 1: as you said, beautiful writer. So tell me about how

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Speaker 1: did you meet Chris?

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Speaker 2: Yes, Chris Doorer is the person who created The Bear,

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Speaker 2: and it was really came out of his experiences in

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Speaker 2: your world. His sister, Coco was a chef, but I think, yeah,

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Speaker 2: he also had his own love of not just all food,

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Speaker 2: but I think particularly he had a point of view

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Speaker 2: on the world of fine dining, what was positive about it,

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Speaker 2: what was negative, but also that it was just amazing

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Speaker 2: that it was this secret world. And he had written

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Speaker 2: a movie that was sort of The Bear and then

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Speaker 2: decided to turn it into a TV show. And I

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Speaker 2: had been writing for many years. And we met in

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Speaker 2: the most boring way, which is literally my manager was like,

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Speaker 2: do you want to meet this guy? And I was like, oh,

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Speaker 2: I guess. And we zoomed during the pandemic and I

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Speaker 2: had read some of his scripts. I just thought, not

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Speaker 2: only did I love the way he wrote, but I

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Speaker 2: mainly was like, I love this world, you know, for

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Speaker 2: all the reasons that we're talking about, And it was

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Speaker 2: really exciting to me. We didn't know each other, we'd

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Speaker 2: never met. We just met on a computer and then

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Speaker 2: we got on the phone and talked because I wanted

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Speaker 2: to make sure I connected with him personally and before

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Speaker 2: we sort of launched into this whole thing's some kind

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Speaker 2: of working relationship, and it just felt like I had

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Speaker 2: known him my whole life. I think it has to

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Speaker 2: feel that way. I've felt. I mean, I've experienced different

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Speaker 2: kinds of partnerships, and I think you either have this

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Speaker 2: like partner chemistry or you don't. And I think I

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Speaker 2: just had this instinct that we had something in common.

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Speaker 1: How did you work together, how did you work how

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Speaker 1: did you write together?

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Speaker 2: You know, it's changed. In the beginning, we were just

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Speaker 2: sort of trying to see if we could get FX

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Speaker 2: to let us make the pilot, so that meant that

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Speaker 2: I just gave him feedback and I was like, what

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Speaker 2: if we try this, or this is great, or let's

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Speaker 2: move this up or you know, I think not too surprisingly.

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Speaker 2: He had created the character of Sydney and she was

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Speaker 2: very much based on Cocoa, but when I first read

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Speaker 2: the scripts, she didn't appear until episode three, and I said,

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Speaker 2: I really like that girl character. Can we move her up?

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Speaker 1: Hi? Hello, Hi, I'm Sydney. I called about the suposition, and.

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Speaker 2: The fact that he was like, yeah, let's do it,

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Speaker 2: I think was sort of the beginning of just us

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Speaker 2: being able to push each other and change things, but

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Speaker 2: always with keeping what's special about his voice?

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Speaker 1: What's you ps? That's in Chicago or United Parcel Service?

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Speaker 2: The one's the male?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you would you do for them?

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Speaker 2: Sometimes I'm just helping him with his scripts. Sometimes we're

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Speaker 2: writing together, sometimes all outline and then he'll write. Sometimes

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Speaker 2: we'll share. Sometimes he'll write scenes, all write scenes. Sometimes

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Speaker 2: I'll just write a script on myself.

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Speaker 1: That's the thing.

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Speaker 2: It's completely fluid and there is no one way, which

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Speaker 2: makes it really thrilling.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so you know the drill. We uh, you're gonna

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Speaker 1: make family. Just meet plus three and we weat around two.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, heard, dope.

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Speaker 3: Cool.

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Speaker 1: There are so many parallels between writing and cooking and

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Speaker 1: teaching a chef to make a sauce or working with

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Speaker 1: an actor to create a scene. And I think that

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Speaker 1: restaurants are quite dramatic places. There's the drama between the

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Speaker 1: chef and the other chefs. There's a drama between the

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Speaker 1: chefs and the waiters and the waiters and the customers

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Speaker 1: and the customers and each other. You know, you see

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Speaker 1: people crying in restaurants. We've seen it in your series

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Speaker 1: We've seen the intimacy between people who are doing repetitive work.

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Speaker 1: You emote, it's very emotional and it's very personal. Do

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Speaker 1: you think, Oh, I couldn't agree more.

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Speaker 2: I don't think it had occurred to me how many

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Speaker 2: similarities there are into my business and to being a chef.

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Speaker 2: But they're so similar, and I think at the core

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Speaker 2: of that is just passionate people, feeling people, and also

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Speaker 2: just the humanity. Right, It's like, that's what I love

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Speaker 2: about the Bear, you know, especially season one, is like

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Speaker 2: they're all jammed into this tiny space, and so you

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Speaker 2: have really different kinds of people. Some are leaders, some

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Speaker 2: are followers, some are aggressive, some are soft, Some are

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Speaker 2: doing the repetitive stuff and that's where they feel best.

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Speaker 2: Some want to create, you know, and they're all within

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Speaker 2: two inches of each other. I mean, that's insane.

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Speaker 1: I have a conversation for a second. Whoa is this?

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Speaker 2: This is Sydney. I'm starving today.

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Speaker 1: You're wading today, Sydney. She's helping us out today. Cousin,

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Speaker 1: you ordered different mannais bro banana? Oh you shof?

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Speaker 2: Oh you shift this bif He was using them to

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Speaker 2: make a giant knuckle.

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Speaker 1: It's a play on a panatonia would have been beautiful

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Speaker 1: if you let me finish something. Colusene Richie Jeremovich, pleasure

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Speaker 1: to meet you, sweetheart, say sweetheart, farm you're so woof.

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Speaker 2: I mean nothing by it, Sydney sat Sweetheart's just part

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Speaker 2: of our Italian hair.

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Speaker 1: Okay, listen, I'm trying to talk to you. Okay, don't

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Speaker 1: be rude and start doing a million things like the

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Speaker 1: smartest we have in the River Cafe an open kitchen.

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Speaker 1: There's no wool between the person who's eating and ourselves.

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Speaker 1: And when we first opened, a friend of mine who's

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Speaker 1: the theater director, came and I said, doesn't it look

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Speaker 1: like theater and he said, no, actually looks like ballet.

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Speaker 1: Because everybody is moving, nobody can shout. We all go

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Speaker 1: next to each other. We you know, we move around

390
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Speaker 1: the kitchen and speak very softly. But I think that

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Speaker 1: it was also interesting for me to see in your

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Speaker 1: kitchens a kind of way of growing forward. You know

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Speaker 1: that how we move this profession of being a chef

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Speaker 1: into being like a lawyer, like a journalist, And that's

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Speaker 1: kind of what you want to achieve. You want that

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Speaker 1: energy and that drama, but you also want it to

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Speaker 1: be fair and you want it to be hope rather

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Speaker 1: than fear.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, yes, of course we do. And also

400
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Speaker 2: I am really interested in this idea that I think

401
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Speaker 2: we're always circling on the show, which is where do

402
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Speaker 2: the heart edges fit in our lives? Do we need that?

403
00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:50,000
Speaker 2: Do we need anger? Do we need release? Are we?

404
00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:52,800
Speaker 2: Are we all trying a little too hard to push

405
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Speaker 2: away the part of us that's saying that there's a

406
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Speaker 2: darkness too? How does the darkness benefit us? You know,

407
00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:02,600
Speaker 2: does it? You know? I just I think I don't know.

408
00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:04,080
Speaker 2: I'm interested in that for sure.

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Speaker 1: Tell me about one of the episodes that you directed

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Speaker 1: that you'd like to talk about.

411
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Speaker 2: Oh, my gosh, I mean, I'll talk about in season two,

412
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Speaker 2: I directed the episode where Sydney is going out and

413
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Speaker 2: eating everywhere. Yeah, because that seems the most relevant. But

414
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Speaker 2: I will say it was so hard. I mean, it

415
00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:27,000
Speaker 2: was so challenging. We shot in so many locations all

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Speaker 2: over the city, interrupting these restaurants that were just trying

417
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Speaker 2: to do business, but they opened their doors to us.

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Speaker 2: You know. It was such a special look into how

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Speaker 2: those kitchens work because it was kind of like half

420
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Speaker 2: documentary half, you know, fiction, and so that was such

421
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Speaker 2: a challenge to try to really tell honest stories about

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Speaker 2: the people that worked there and to use real chefs.

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Speaker 2: But also they have to act and they have to

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Speaker 2: say lines, and I had to figure out how to

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Speaker 2: direct non actors. And then you had Io eating every

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Speaker 2: single food, every single thing. And I was so proud

427
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Speaker 2: of her. I was so proud because it's hard. Yeah,

428
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Speaker 2: it's hard to just eat and like you know that

429
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Speaker 2: moment when you're eating and then it's like you take

430
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Speaker 2: one too many bites and it's no longer food, it's

431
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Speaker 2: just like matter in your mouth. I'm always delighted by

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Speaker 2: that experience, and I pushed beyond that and really put

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Speaker 2: a beautiful performance on the screen.

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Speaker 1: We wanted to talk about the pasta, but why don't

435
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Speaker 1: you ask?

436
00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:31,280
Speaker 2: Well?

437
00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:33,480
Speaker 3: I love the episode because there are two scenes that

438
00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:35,800
Speaker 3: stand out to me. One is the beautiful way you

439
00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:38,359
Speaker 3: show the montage the pasta's on the plate, which is

440
00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:40,280
Speaker 3: so beautiful. It really crosses, like you say, in the

441
00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:43,719
Speaker 3: line of art and documentary and fiction in the episode.

442
00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:45,600
Speaker 3: But I also love where Carme and Sider in the

443
00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:49,000
Speaker 3: kitchen testing this past the recipe together over his kitchen table,

444
00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:52,200
Speaker 3: And I like the idea of when there are scenes

445
00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:54,199
Speaker 3: like that, does it is it the food that influences

446
00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:56,199
Speaker 3: the scene or is it the other way around? What

447
00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:58,240
Speaker 3: food would involve both of them?

448
00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:00,960
Speaker 2: That's such a good question. I love that scene too,

449
00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:04,520
Speaker 2: because I think, are you talking about the one where

450
00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:05,640
Speaker 2: they taste it and it's bad?

451
00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:06,240
Speaker 3: Yes?

452
00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:17,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Oh, oh my god, chef, that's way too

453
00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:20,560
Speaker 1: much as oh my god, oh did I fuck up

454
00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:22,760
Speaker 1: your recipe? Or no? I must have just given you

455
00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:23,680
Speaker 1: the wrong account. It's fine.

456
00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:25,359
Speaker 2: Wait do you need rule it or something? Did I

457
00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:26,040
Speaker 2: give you heartburn?

458
00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:31,200
Speaker 1: Because I've no, no, no, no, no, no, it's I'm sorry.

459
00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:31,840
Speaker 1: I'm sign.

460
00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:32,560
Speaker 2: Yes.

461
00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:33,359
Speaker 1: I loved that.

462
00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:36,400
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, it's so funny to be like, yeah,

463
00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:39,200
Speaker 2: sometimes it's bad, right, Like we I realized we hadn't

464
00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:41,000
Speaker 2: seen that, you know what I mean, we hadn't seen

465
00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:44,800
Speaker 2: the mistake and that that's obviously such a such a

466
00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:48,080
Speaker 2: character moment too. But but I just liked the idea

467
00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:51,199
Speaker 2: that we often see in movies when they take the

468
00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:54,080
Speaker 2: bite and it's delicious, but I hadn't seen the other thing.

469
00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:57,600
Speaker 2: But I think for us it's really it's all connected.

470
00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:01,160
Speaker 2: Like sometimes we'll write in a script a certain food

471
00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:04,040
Speaker 2: right for that scene, a certain dish. But then when

472
00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:06,679
Speaker 2: you get into pre production, you actually sit down with

473
00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:10,159
Speaker 2: Mattie Matheson and Courtney Store, who you know are our

474
00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:13,800
Speaker 2: food consultants, and we create a whole menu, not just

475
00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:16,960
Speaker 2: for the restaurant but for the show. So we worked

476
00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:19,000
Speaker 2: backwards because we were like, Okay, at the end of

477
00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:21,840
Speaker 2: the season, she's going to have this version of this dish.

478
00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:24,760
Speaker 2: So then working backwards, what do we need that to be?

479
00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:27,199
Speaker 2: And we really we had this idea of doing this

480
00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:30,159
Speaker 2: ravioli thing you guys are talking about in sort of

481
00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:37,000
Speaker 2: the visual connections of ravioli and revoli, connection to dumplings

482
00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:39,800
Speaker 2: and to Parogi's, and sort of just this idea of

483
00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:43,920
Speaker 2: just like stuffed pasta, right, So we wanted it all

484
00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:47,080
Speaker 2: to be connected. So it could have honestly been anything,

485
00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:49,359
Speaker 2: but we sort of tried to make it cohesive so

486
00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:52,800
Speaker 2: that you could follow her thinking and her creative path

487
00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:53,679
Speaker 2: through the whole season.

488
00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:56,359
Speaker 1: Do you think differently about food? Do you think that

489
00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:59,360
Speaker 1: working in this way where food has become a performance,

490
00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:03,480
Speaker 1: it's become visual, it's so many people involved, has that

491
00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:07,200
Speaker 1: intimacy that you had Chateau bagel or living with your mother.

492
00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:10,440
Speaker 1: How does that translate? That's an interesting question.

493
00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:12,680
Speaker 2: I mean, I think for the most part, I still

494
00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:16,440
Speaker 2: feel like the small moments at home are the best

495
00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:18,959
Speaker 2: food moments. You know, when I cook for my kids,

496
00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:21,880
Speaker 2: my daughter wants pesto pasta, they want pretzels, they want

497
00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:25,439
Speaker 2: good pretzels, they want tasty honey pretzels. Like it's just

498
00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:28,720
Speaker 2: it's the simple things that actually make your life go around.

499
00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:31,040
Speaker 2: I do feel really lucky to have been able to

500
00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:33,879
Speaker 2: go to some really good restaurants because of the show,

501
00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:37,760
Speaker 2: and it's still so magical and so special. Thinking about

502
00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:41,800
Speaker 2: it so much, I do feel worried about food waste

503
00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:45,720
Speaker 2: and all the unpleasantries of the business of food, and

504
00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:49,560
Speaker 2: how I'm so privileged to get to go to some

505
00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:51,760
Speaker 2: of the places that I get to go, and so,

506
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,480
Speaker 2: you know, I think I worry about that sometimes, but

507
00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:56,800
Speaker 2: for the most part, I still think food is spectacular

508
00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:58,080
Speaker 2: and makes world go round.

509
00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:00,440
Speaker 1: Tell me about the women chefs that you met. Let's

510
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:01,200
Speaker 1: talk about women.

511
00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:04,800
Speaker 2: I love talking about women. I mean, I'll start with

512
00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:08,280
Speaker 2: Courtney with Coco, what a force, but also what a

513
00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:12,160
Speaker 2: beautiful connector of people she was with me when we

514
00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:14,879
Speaker 2: were shooting that episode with Sydney out in the city

515
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:17,440
Speaker 2: and we were in this parogi place that's been there

516
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:20,000
Speaker 2: forever in Chicago, and she said, come here, come with me,

517
00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:22,199
Speaker 2: and we walked into the back and she was like,

518
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:24,359
Speaker 2: it's all women. Also, that idea that you could just

519
00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:26,480
Speaker 2: walk into the back of a restaurant, it's so crazy,

520
00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:29,040
Speaker 2: you know, that's so cool, But she just was. She

521
00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:31,000
Speaker 2: took my hand and we walked in the back and

522
00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 2: it was all Polish women and it was this very

523
00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:36,320
Speaker 2: beautiful thing, and she was like, do you see. And

524
00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:40,320
Speaker 2: I think she completely opened my eyes to this thing

525
00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:44,280
Speaker 2: where there is such a tradition of male chefs, right,

526
00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:46,359
Speaker 2: and we are dealing with that in our show, and

527
00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:50,000
Speaker 2: obviously so many of our famous chefs are male. That

528
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:53,800
Speaker 2: is just the world. But her showing me that these

529
00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:57,320
Speaker 2: kitchens are full of women and talking to me about

530
00:25:57,400 --> 00:25:59,920
Speaker 2: how does a woman communicate versus how a man communicates

531
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:03,159
Speaker 2: the kitchen has been just so inspirational and such an

532
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:05,480
Speaker 2: important part of the show. And so, I mean, cop

533
00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:08,680
Speaker 2: is my number one woman in food And.

534
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:10,879
Speaker 1: Do you feel is there a parallel in television?

535
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:14,320
Speaker 2: Oh? Yes, oh yes, oh yes, I mean I think

536
00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:19,480
Speaker 2: that idea of trying to figure out what tone of

537
00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:22,359
Speaker 2: voice to use, Like my voice is kind of low,

538
00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:24,520
Speaker 2: and then thinking about, well do I use that low

539
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:26,959
Speaker 2: voice or do I use my little voice? You know,

540
00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:30,720
Speaker 2: those kinds of questions are things that I have had

541
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:33,480
Speaker 2: to navigate as a director. You know, as a writer,

542
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:35,920
Speaker 2: it's easier. You kind of just sit and you press

543
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:39,679
Speaker 2: your little buttons, and for me, I find that really easy.

544
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:44,359
Speaker 2: But being a director has really been in experience in

545
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:46,680
Speaker 2: trying to figure out how to be a female on set.

546
00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:49,480
Speaker 1: Do you find it a lonely place? Yes?

547
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:51,879
Speaker 2: I think directing is lonely in general, and Chris and

548
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:54,160
Speaker 2: I have talked about that. Obviously, I'm still learning. Maybe

549
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:57,439
Speaker 2: when I'm better at it, I'll feel differently. But I

550
00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:00,800
Speaker 2: think directors are also siloed from each other too, you know.

551
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:03,720
Speaker 2: So it's because you don't direct together. You all have

552
00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:06,880
Speaker 2: these different ways of doing it. There isn't really an

553
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:10,160
Speaker 2: easy way to compare and contrast. So even though you're

554
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:13,960
Speaker 2: collaborating with each person on the set, ultimately you are

555
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:16,280
Speaker 2: in your own lay and it's definitely lonely. Is being

556
00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:16,960
Speaker 2: a chef lonely?

557
00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:18,920
Speaker 1: Yeah? I was going to say that's a coco. When

558
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:21,320
Speaker 1: I spoke to her today, she said, I love being

559
00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:23,840
Speaker 1: a chef and being in a restaurant is that it's

560
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:27,480
Speaker 1: very very collaborative. You know that if someone doesn't chop

561
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:30,720
Speaker 1: the PARSI then you can't make the sauce. If someone

562
00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:32,400
Speaker 1: is late. I would say it's a very good place

563
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:34,480
Speaker 1: for young people to work because if you're late, you

564
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:36,280
Speaker 1: don't get in trouble with your boss, You get in

565
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:38,159
Speaker 1: trouble with you know, the people who are depending you

566
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:42,080
Speaker 1: on you, and so it teaches you that collaboration. But

567
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:44,399
Speaker 1: I think that what we're all trying to learn is

568
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:47,160
Speaker 1: how you give feedback, how you give criticism, how you

569
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:51,520
Speaker 1: take criticism. All that. And I started the restaurant with

570
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:55,359
Speaker 1: another woman, with Rose Gray, and we have had a

571
00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:58,720
Speaker 1: very strong percentage of women in every role. I don't

572
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:02,679
Speaker 1: necessarily think women cook differently than men. I don't go

573
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:04,960
Speaker 1: for that. You know, we cook with more gentleness or

574
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:07,760
Speaker 1: more love or more attention. But the dynamic in the

575
00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:11,000
Speaker 1: kitchen when you have women and men together as opposed

576
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:13,920
Speaker 1: to men or just women, is really apparent.

577
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:18,000
Speaker 2: Yes, I think you're right, and I'm excited to explore

578
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:19,560
Speaker 2: that more. What is it like to be on a

579
00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:21,480
Speaker 2: set with more women. What is it like to be

580
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:23,439
Speaker 2: on a set that's fifty to fifty? You know, I

581
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:23,879
Speaker 2: just don't know.

582
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:24,320
Speaker 3: Ye know.

583
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:26,400
Speaker 2: I think those are things that I want to experience.

584
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:27,880
Speaker 1: And so what are you working on now?

585
00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:32,159
Speaker 2: We are writing season three of The Bear. That's really fun.

586
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:34,160
Speaker 2: That's the easy part.

587
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 1: You're not on zoom calls with Chris? Are you together

588
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:38,120
Speaker 1: in an office?

589
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:42,160
Speaker 2: No? We do zoom unfortunately. But I think we're going

590
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:45,040
Speaker 2: to try to have dinner in a couple of weeks.

591
00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:46,560
Speaker 1: Where would the two of you go? Do you have

592
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:47,800
Speaker 1: the same taste in food?

593
00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:49,800
Speaker 2: We want to go to New York. We want to

594
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:52,400
Speaker 2: meet up in New York and go eat some good food.

595
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:53,360
Speaker 2: That's our plan.

596
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 1: Do you read out much? Do you go? Can you

597
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:56,160
Speaker 1: take the children?

598
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:59,040
Speaker 2: Or do I ditch the children and I go out?

599
00:28:59,280 --> 00:28:59,480
Speaker 3: Yeah?

600
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:01,959
Speaker 2: That's I mean. I love my kids so much, but

601
00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:05,360
Speaker 2: I think eating out is such a luxury and it

602
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,520
Speaker 2: needs to be not about telling them to be quiet,

603
00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:11,240
Speaker 2: because they deserve to be loud.

604
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:18,560
Speaker 1: Yeah. Okay. If you like listening to Ruthie's Table for

605
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:22,800
Speaker 1: would you please make sure to rate and review the

606
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:28,200
Speaker 1: podcast on the iHeartRadio app. Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever

607
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:41,680
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. Thank you. We're talking about drama,

608
00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:46,040
Speaker 1: we're talking about food. We're talking about the brilliant, beautiful

609
00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:48,920
Speaker 1: series you've given us. You know that I think you've

610
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:52,080
Speaker 1: made people want to know about restaurants. You people wanted

611
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:54,640
Speaker 1: to know about cooking. You've had empathy for people who

612
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:58,120
Speaker 1: are either behind the kitchen or in front of you,

613
00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:01,320
Speaker 1: or who are grilling. Who are the curtain goes up

614
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:04,480
Speaker 1: and everyone sits down, and I think on the path

615
00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:07,360
Speaker 1: of everyone, we thank you. It's very interesting how I

616
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:09,920
Speaker 1: talk to the chefs about it. You know that everybody

617
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:11,840
Speaker 1: in the River Cafe is watching it, and we talk

618
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:14,240
Speaker 1: about it, and we relate to it, and we say

619
00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:17,160
Speaker 1: what's different about our environment to the environment we see.

620
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:20,520
Speaker 1: But there is a real representation I think that you've

621
00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:21,360
Speaker 1: created for us.

622
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:24,400
Speaker 2: That's so wonderful. I mean, we are so grateful that

623
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 2: people are watching like truly. I mean, I had no

624
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:30,680
Speaker 2: idea that people would respond to it this way, but

625
00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:34,680
Speaker 2: I'm so glad and so grateful, and I also just

626
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:37,720
Speaker 2: it's really nice to have something to connect over. I

627
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:40,840
Speaker 2: do think that's something I miss about television when I

628
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:43,080
Speaker 2: was younger was because there were less shows, you could

629
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:45,760
Speaker 2: kind of really connect. Everyone sort of had a moment

630
00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:47,360
Speaker 2: to say, well, what does this make you feel? What

631
00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:49,720
Speaker 2: do you like about it? You know whatever, even just

632
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:52,880
Speaker 2: saying your little catchphrases or whatever. It's like, that's a

633
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:55,440
Speaker 2: way for us to have a community. And so it's

634
00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:58,560
Speaker 2: so lovely that people are feeling connected.

635
00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:02,280
Speaker 1: We are we are connected. Food is connection, dramas connection.

636
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:06,000
Speaker 1: People are connection. And my last question to you is comfort.

637
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:09,200
Speaker 1: You've described the joyousness of eating, and the joyousness of

638
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:12,080
Speaker 1: feeding your children, and the joyousness of your parents' kitchens.

639
00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:15,520
Speaker 1: But sometimes we do need comfort in food. And I

640
00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:18,000
Speaker 1: was wondering if for my last question, the channa is

641
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:20,000
Speaker 1: what is the food you might turn to if you

642
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:22,440
Speaker 1: need comfort? Ruthie, I think you know what it is.

643
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:26,920
Speaker 2: It's bagel, bag old cream cheese, and I want potato

644
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:29,320
Speaker 2: chips on the side.

645
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:31,480
Speaker 1: Well, we will find that when I see you in

646
00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:33,520
Speaker 1: New York or in London. We'll just go and we'll

647
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:35,520
Speaker 1: eat at the River Cafe and I'll take you in

648
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:38,440
Speaker 1: the kitchen. But most of all, thank you, thank you,

649
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:39,520
Speaker 1: Thanks bye bye.

650
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:46,160
Speaker 3: Ruthie's Table Floor is produced by Atami Studios for iHeartRadio

651
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:50,080
Speaker 3: is hosted by Ruthie Rodgers. It's produced by William Lensky

652
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:54,440
Speaker 3: for Executive producers are Zad Rogers and facetew Our production

653
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:58,440
Speaker 3: manager is Caitlin Parafle. Our production coordinator is Bella Celina.

654
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 3: Special thanks to every

655
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Speaker 2: Ne