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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never told You from how stupports

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Speaker 1: dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen

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Speaker 1: and I'm Caroline, and welcome to part two of our

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Speaker 1: look at Women in the Advertising agency. In the last episode,

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Speaker 1: we talked about the history of women, specifically white women

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Speaker 1: in the industry, and now we're going to hop forward

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Speaker 1: to look at the landscape today because things aren't all

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Speaker 1: that great, shall we say. Yeah, Kristen and I were

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Speaker 1: exchanging research links and sources leading up to today, and

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Speaker 1: there was a bit of commentary on how depressing all

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Speaker 1: the headlines were. Well, yeah, so, so many sad headlines.

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Speaker 1: I know that I hopped into this hoping like, well,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure you know there's gonna be the typical talk

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Speaker 1: about like male dominated this and you know, sexism that.

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Speaker 1: But surely there's like a lot of great stuff to

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Speaker 1: talk about. Well, uh, for the landscape today, not so much.

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Speaker 1: I mean I think that there is uh some stuff

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Speaker 1: to be optimistic about. There's a lot more conversation happening

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Speaker 1: today about women's exclusion from the higher ranks of the

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Speaker 1: ad industry. Um, there's a lot of acknowledgement for where

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Speaker 1: women are shining. Women are outnumbering men in mini sectors

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Speaker 1: of advertising and marketing. UM. And there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: conversation around uh changing the industries whole culture in terms

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Speaker 1: of UH familyly paid, family lyve UM, making the culture

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Speaker 1: more friendly to people with families. But so many things

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Speaker 1: are still just so rough. And before we get into

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Speaker 1: that rough stuff, why don't we break down some ad

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Speaker 1: agents see departments to give folks an idea of the

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Speaker 1: type of work that's happening in advertising. UM. Not surprisingly,

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Speaker 1: going into advertising, you would usually have a business or

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Speaker 1: communication background. UM, you might have an understanding of psychology, design,

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Speaker 1: writing in journalism. Changing technology is kind of a no brainer. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So here some different departments in areas of advertising include

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Speaker 1: account management. You're basically the person who works for the agency.

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Speaker 1: It's your job to get the best work done for

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Speaker 1: the client but still at a profit for the agency.

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Speaker 1: You've got account planning, which is the person who make

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Speaker 1: sure that the consumer's perspective is fully considered when advertising

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Speaker 1: is being developed. That person probably does a lot of

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Speaker 1: research into consumer psychology and behavior. So I feel like

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Speaker 1: Kristen and I would really shine we're pros at research. UH.

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Speaker 1: And then you've got the creative department. It. So these

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Speaker 1: are the people who are actually taking the ideas and

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Speaker 1: imagery and the word parts and stringing them together into

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Speaker 1: a beautiful pizza of of an ad. I love that

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Speaker 1: a pizza ad. They make the pizza. It's a stuffed crust,

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Speaker 1: multi topping thing that gets you to buy stuff. So

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Speaker 1: in this analogy, Don Draper is a pizza pie maker.

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Speaker 1: He is Papa John. He's like, imagine pizza on the counter,

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Speaker 1: cats looking at it. That's all I got. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: I got nothing. Um the creative department. I I was

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Speaker 1: in an in house a company's in house marketing department,

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Speaker 1: and I was on the creative team as a writer.

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Speaker 1: And how was it? It was so fun? Was that sarcasm? Maybe? Uh?

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Speaker 1: What kind of what kind of stuff? Though? Did you do?

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Speaker 1: Did you do? It? Was? It just sort of a

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Speaker 1: campaign would come up from creative and you would tippy

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Speaker 1: type the words. Basically, the marketing representatives in the department

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Speaker 1: would work with the client, which was really just another

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Speaker 1: department in the company because again we were in house.

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Speaker 1: They would figure out what they needed to promote or

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Speaker 1: drive traffic to and would set up a campaign working

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Speaker 1: with us as the creative team, so I would write

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Speaker 1: or edit the copy for something, working closely with my

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Speaker 1: graphic designer buddies, who would then make everything look really nice.

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Speaker 1: Although my creative director would kill me if she heard

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Speaker 1: me sum it up as they make it look real

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Speaker 1: mass because she frequently complained about people who dismissed creative teams.

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Speaker 1: Is just making things look pretty? Yeah, because you're also

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Speaker 1: making pizza, right, because you're also making ad pizza. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so you and your job. You would be writing the

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Speaker 1: pizza menu. Yeah, okay, totally, I might be giving you

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Speaker 1: the ingredient list. Excellent. Yeah, I love this metaphor A

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Speaker 1: lot is easier to understand if you just put it

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Speaker 1: in pizza terms. I'm telling you, well, you also have

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Speaker 1: in our our pizza parlor the media department, which is

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Speaker 1: responsible for placing ads where it will reach the right

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Speaker 1: people at the right time, in the right place in

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Speaker 1: a cost effective way. So, for instance, you might not

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Speaker 1: want to buy ad space in g Q for tampons.

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Speaker 1: And if you are advertising something like the latest smartphone, uh,

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Speaker 1: maybe it's better to advertise on a website than on

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Speaker 1: a newspaper page, or maybe just a brochure you kind

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Speaker 1: of leave out on the sidewalk and hope someone picks up.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna send you a postcard about the iPhone. And

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Speaker 1: finally we have interactive marketing. Um, the opportunities in this

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Speaker 1: our biggest in areas of design, marketing, and computer programming

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Speaker 1: agent sees. Of course these days need computer based designers

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Speaker 1: and programmers as well as strategists who understand how marketers

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Speaker 1: can use interactive media creatively and effectively. And um, I

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Speaker 1: actually know some folks who are in really cool interactive

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Speaker 1: marketing where they are designing experiences and using a lot

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Speaker 1: of technology and a lot of like virtual reality and

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Speaker 1: augmented reality to do that. Yeah, so advertising is not

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Speaker 1: simply designing something or simply just telling people they need

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Speaker 1: to go by the thing. There is a lot, as

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Speaker 1: you can see, a lot of strategy and psychology and

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Speaker 1: technology that's all wrapped up in working in the AD industry.

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Speaker 1: And there are a lot of women working in the

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Speaker 1: ad industry. Women make up nearly half of all ad

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Speaker 1: industry employees, and things are pretty gender balanced if you

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Speaker 1: look at account manage ment and services, media planning and buying,

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Speaker 1: and women out number men in media agencies marketing and

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Speaker 1: strategic planning, so all as well. Right, totally, everything's great,

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Speaker 1: especially since we're starting to see more women being hired

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Speaker 1: as CEO s. Like, I'm episode over, what are we

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Speaker 1: even talking about? Yeah, why are we complaining? We're always

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Speaker 1: victimizing ourselves, like those men's rights advocates thing. Those men

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Speaker 1: are right, They were right the whole time. Well, if

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Speaker 1: it sounds vague to just say more women are coming

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Speaker 1: into jobs, uh, it's because, frankly, the industry is doing

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Speaker 1: a pretty poor job at policing itself. There are really

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Speaker 1: not a lot of solid numbers out there by which

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Speaker 1: to judge progress. So if you're like, I'm interested in

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Speaker 1: learning how many women there were in nineteen sixty five

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Speaker 1: versus ninety five versus two thousand five, will like, sister,

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Speaker 1: good luck. Um. Now, you do have a few groups

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Speaker 1: crunching the numbers. Not surprisingly, they are groups focused on diversity.

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Speaker 1: You have the three percent Conference, which is named for

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Speaker 1: the estimate of female creative directors in two back when

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Speaker 1: the group was formed. You've got the Advertising Women of

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Speaker 1: New York, which should sound familiar to you. It's an

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Speaker 1: industry group that we talked a lot about in our

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Speaker 1: first episode, which was founded because the Advertising League didn't

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Speaker 1: allow women correct a mundo. You have the four A's,

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Speaker 1: which is a trade association, and the thirty percent Club,

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Speaker 1: which is not necessarily advertising specific, but it's a group

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Speaker 1: of business leaders who are trying to increase women's representation

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Speaker 1: on SMP five hundred boards to thirty percent by the

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Speaker 1: end of So it took people with a special interest

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Speaker 1: and that special interest being no longer having advertising being

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Speaker 1: just like Lily white and doodish, uh to try to

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Speaker 1: get these numbers in hand to help enhance diversity and

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Speaker 1: therefore creativity. And we have seen you know, the dial

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Speaker 1: move for the three percent conference for instance, Uh, you

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Speaker 1: know three percent in now it's closer to So we're

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Speaker 1: in double digit, just barely. UM. An ad veteran av Dan,

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Speaker 1: who is a dude, UH, credits Client Boards with pressuring

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Speaker 1: Madison Avenue to hire more women in general. Agencies, he writes,

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Speaker 1: are warming to the idea that maybe it's not a

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Speaker 1: good idea to always have men only pitch meetings. An

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Speaker 1: entire team of dudes walking in to pitch something, whether

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Speaker 1: it is UH something targeted towards men, or whether it

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Speaker 1: is tampons and agencies have similarly been lobbied to hire

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Speaker 1: more people of color. Um av Dan also says, quote

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Speaker 1: advertising continues to discriminate against African Americans. That was something

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Speaker 1: that we talked about at the end of our last episode,

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Speaker 1: looking at the history of the industry, which was so

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Speaker 1: so so white for so so long. UM, and people

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Speaker 1: of color continue to be very underrepresented and also underpaid

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Speaker 1: compared to white co workers. Yeah, African Americans make up

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Speaker 1: just five percent of the professional and management roles in advertising,

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Speaker 1: and they're only about half as likely as their white

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Speaker 1: colleagues to work in advertising agencies, creative and clients services functions. Uh.

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Speaker 1: Not to mention hello that black college grads working in

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Speaker 1: advertising earned eighty cents for every dollar earned by their

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Speaker 1: equally qualified white counterparts. But even if people of color

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Speaker 1: are are paid equitably in agencies, that doesn't guarantee that

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Speaker 1: the work environment UM is similarly enriching. Maybe that's the

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Speaker 1: way to put it UM for instance, for instance, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I can't even believe this is an example. We have

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Speaker 1: Campbell Ewald CE Jim Palmer, who was fired after a

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Speaker 1: white creative leader at the agency's San Antonio office sent

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Speaker 1: an email in October inviting staffers to take part in No,

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Speaker 1: We're not making this up a ghetto day. Yeah, so

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Speaker 1: you've got writer Jim Hoke. He's the one who sent

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Speaker 1: out this awful email. He joined Campbell Ewald san Antonio

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Speaker 1: as an executive creative director. I just want you to

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Speaker 1: pin that in your brain that this jerk was a

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Speaker 1: creative director. So anyway, he sent out this email. I'm

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Speaker 1: not going to read the whole thing, but he basically

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Speaker 1: uses a lot of terrible language. He encourages people to

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Speaker 1: pop a freak with us and says that you could

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Speaker 1: enjoy ghetto music and malt forty five at lunch. And

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Speaker 1: he closes it up by saying word my cerebral gangsters,

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Speaker 1: which is honestly to me, like, yeah, this guy's an

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Speaker 1: idiot and he's clearly racist. But like, also, he I

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Speaker 1: think thinks of himself a little highly to call himself cerebral.

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Speaker 1: And there's also an issue of ages m that comes

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Speaker 1: up a lot. More than fifty of employees in the

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Speaker 1: ad industry are under forty five versus of just all

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Speaker 1: workers um generally in the US, and the median age

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Speaker 1: of workers in advertising is thirty eight. Versus close to

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Speaker 1: forty four all workers. Um, So the they tend to

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Speaker 1: be a little bit younger. Writers and art directors are

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Speaker 1: usually between twenty five and thirty five. So if you're

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Speaker 1: older than that, as av Dan says, you've either made

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Speaker 1: it to the executive floor, or you've been downsized, or

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Speaker 1: you've just left and started something else. Yeah. Yeah, it's uh,

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Speaker 1: it's not well. And I feel like it's this way

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Speaker 1: in a lot of creative or tech fields, Like it's

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Speaker 1: just not very welcoming to older people in those maybe

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Speaker 1: like non director positions. Um. Okay, so we've told you

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Speaker 1: kind of where the women are, but where are they not? Well,

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Speaker 1: that would generally be the creative department on the whole.

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Speaker 1: And it's interesting to look at advertising from the same

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Speaker 1: perspective we normally look at uh, STEM jobs with because

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Speaker 1: it sounds like creative departments on the whole have a

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Speaker 1: leaky pipeline. Yeah, because portfolio schools are graduating equal if

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Speaker 1: not more numbers of women as men. But women are

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Speaker 1: still just eleven point five percent of ad agency creative directors. Um,

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Speaker 1: and that actually is still high for a lot of companies.

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Speaker 1: The three Percent conference reached out to eight women in

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Speaker 1: both creative and non creative roles, and six of them

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Speaker 1: said that their current employer falls below that eleven percent mark. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So we also have to look at the biggest advertising

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Speaker 1: bonanza in the United States, which is the Super Bowl.

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Speaker 1: It's a great example. It's a great little micro cosm

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Speaker 1: of who's doing what what. Advertising movers and shakers are

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Speaker 1: rising to the top. Uh. If you look at the

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Speaker 1: Super Bowls, of of the creative directors of those ads

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Speaker 1: air during the Super Bowl were men. And of the

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Speaker 1: sixty or so ads that aired during the game in particular,

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Speaker 1: not one was led by a person of color. And

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Speaker 1: that also translates to awards, which are huge in the industry. Um.

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Speaker 1: The One Club has a Creative Hall of Fame and

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Speaker 1: out of its fifty three members, a whopping six are women. Uh.

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Speaker 1: In two thousand nine, ad Age published an a list

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Speaker 1: cover featuring one woman and ten men. Yeah. That one

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Speaker 1: woman was Deutsch Inc. North America CEO Linda Sawyer. She's

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Speaker 1: now actually moved up to chairman. Uh, and her take

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Speaker 1: at the time was quote, the C suite remains oddly

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Speaker 1: absent of women. Yeah, I mean that a Liss cover

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Speaker 1: reminds me of the Vanity Fair cover with the late

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Speaker 1: night hosts, but it was all men. They didn't even

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Speaker 1: have a token, a token Linda. There was no token Linda.

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Speaker 1: If only we had more Linda's. Although don't get me wrong,

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Speaker 1: I don't think that Linda Linda Sawyer is token by

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Speaker 1: any mean. Linda's the bob boss. Lady, Linda, are you listening.

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Speaker 1: We're not taking it for granted, Linda, Please don't hate us. Um,

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Speaker 1: but okay, so, so go, let's go back to the pipeline. No,

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Speaker 1: why are women walking away? Welcome to smenty. It's really

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Speaker 1: the same. It's the same well refrained that you hear

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Speaker 1: in so many, so many fields. Yeah, I mean women

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Speaker 1: are just lazy and would rather be shopping right exactly

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Speaker 1: exactly the women from our first episode on advertising. We're

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Speaker 1: just too effective. Uh well, yeah, So basically, let's start

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Speaker 1: with how few mentors there are. There's generally just low

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Speaker 1: visibility of women in high ranking roles in the ad industry,

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Speaker 1: and with so few women up at the tippy top,

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Speaker 1: there's not a clear path for other women to follow,

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Speaker 1: women who might have an eye on that creative director position. Um.

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Speaker 1: There was a sixteen survey by Creative Equals and the

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Speaker 1: Young Creative Council, and it was a little safe. Of

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Speaker 1: the female creatives that they surveyed said that they had

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Speaker 1: never worked with a female creative director or executive creative director.

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Speaker 1: Eighty eight percent said they lacked role models, and six

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Speaker 1: said that advertising is a career that does not support families.

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Speaker 1: Where you do see a really great example is one

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Speaker 1: displayed by Margaret Johnson as she has climbed up the

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Speaker 1: ad ladder. In Onson became the executive creative director and

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Speaker 1: partner at good Be Silverstein and Partners, where six of

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Speaker 1: department heads are women. That's awesome. Um, And since her promotion, uh,

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Speaker 1: female staffers agreement with the survey statement that they quote

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Speaker 1: unquote feel empowered has more than tripled. Because it's great.

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Speaker 1: It's wonderful that there are so many women department heads

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Speaker 1: in this agency. That's fabulous. But to have a woman

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Speaker 1: be in that executive creator creative director position where so

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Speaker 1: few women are I can imagine that you as a

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Speaker 1: lower rung employee trying to figure out what you're gonna

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Speaker 1: do with your career, that that is inspiring. Yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: and it's just a great example of how it doesn't

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Speaker 1: have to be the other way. You know, there is

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Speaker 1: a right way to do it. And I'll say that

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Speaker 1: you know, um, friends of mine who are in advertising,

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Speaker 1: you know where we're all around about thirty and the

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Speaker 1: whole marriage and kids usian is huge because everyone pretty

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Speaker 1: much knows like, Okay, if I if I want to

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Speaker 1: get my promotion, I need to time it correctly if

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Speaker 1: I want to have a kid, because otherwise you're not

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Speaker 1: gonna really be able to do it. And it's the

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Speaker 1: same issue that came up in our architecture episode where

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Speaker 1: right around the same time that people are buckling down

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Speaker 1: to climb on up, it's when our ovaries are like hello,

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Speaker 1: TikTok um, filling up with cobwebs already so or those

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Speaker 1: just mine talking? How do you even clean cobwebs out

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Speaker 1: of your ovaries? That's called yperiod, Carolina. Oh see, I

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Speaker 1: didn't have proper sex at so I wasn't sure what

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Speaker 1: to do about the ovarian cobwebs. And the reason why

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Speaker 1: this is such a crunch is because, especially in creative departments,

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Speaker 1: you're regularly working until you know, midnight to three am,

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Speaker 1: I mean, and and the thing is and I'm saying

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Speaker 1: this as an outsider, but talking to people who are insiders,

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Speaker 1: the number of hours you work is a badge of honor.

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Speaker 1: I have a very good friend who works at an agency, UM,

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Speaker 1: whose boss, who's creative director UM A fellow said that,

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Speaker 1: you know, the team just wasn't working hard enough, UM,

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Speaker 1: and you all should be here until two am every night,

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Speaker 1: and made them that night like stay and redo a

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Speaker 1: whole project. And she was like, yeah, I went home

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Speaker 1: at like four am. It's ridiculous. What time does she

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Speaker 1: have to be at work? Like eight am? Lord, you

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Speaker 1: know you don't want to hang out with me if

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Speaker 1: I've only had like two hours of sleep, I assure you, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And it is. It's totally a badge of honor. And

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Speaker 1: it's totally like it's the same kind of thing in journalism,

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Speaker 1: like the badge of honor of being in the trenches

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Speaker 1: with your fellow sleep deprived alcoholics. You know, like my

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Speaker 1: creative director at that marketing in house marketing department, you know,

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Speaker 1: she had two kids, she wanted a family. She was

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Speaker 1: a total badass. She's so creative and funny and weird,

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Speaker 1: like just the right kind of person you want to

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Speaker 1: be a creative director, but that lifestyle was just not

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Speaker 1: sustainable and and she missed it. You know, she missed

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Speaker 1: the fast pace, she missed I think she kind of

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Speaker 1: liked the boys club. Um, but if you want to

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Speaker 1: have a life, you know you you can't have it

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Speaker 1: when you're working until three in the morning. It's just

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Speaker 1: not uh, it's not doable. And this is something that

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Speaker 1: add into street veteran Janet Keston has pointed out. Keston

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Speaker 1: worked for Ogilvie and Mather and she's since gone on

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Speaker 1: with a partner to form a group called Swim whose

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Speaker 1: purpose is to really like kind of mentor and guide

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Speaker 1: young advertising newbies. But Keston says that while we're seeing

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Speaker 1: more and more industries creating support systems for working moms,

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Speaker 1: advertising is like way behind. She says, we're so as

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Speaker 1: an industry, so beholden to timesheets and hours build as

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Speaker 1: a demonstration of the value provided to me. It's a

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Speaker 1: wrong headed way to think about it. Now the world

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Speaker 1: has changed. And this also hammers home how if you

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Speaker 1: are trying to do this, having a really supportive partner

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Speaker 1: at home is really helpful, because he ad industry culture

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Speaker 1: rewards people who are so career focused and also career primary,

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Speaker 1: not primary caregivers. Yeah, And so ad industry recruiters say that,

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Speaker 1: you know, frankly, just being honest, it can be really

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Speaker 1: hard to find women who have stayed long enough to

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Speaker 1: reach that creative director point. Um. Those who do stick

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Speaker 1: around tend to have a partner whose career is secondary.

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Speaker 1: And of course that's talking about people with families, like

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Speaker 1: we're not even talking about single people or whatever. Um.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, if you're gonna be part of if you're

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Speaker 1: going to be a leader in that cutthroat uh industry

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Speaker 1: um where things are so fast paced and competitive, you

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Speaker 1: you have to be the career primary partner. And when

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Speaker 1: you hear about certain gaffs uh happening among executives, it

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Speaker 1: makes you wonder what is said about women behind closed doors,

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Speaker 1: because in two thousand five, Neil French, who was the

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Speaker 1: worldwide creative director for the giant ad holding company w

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Speaker 1: P p UM, said that there are so few few

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Speaker 1: all creative directors because women are crap, that's a quote,

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Speaker 1: crap at the job. And he referred to the time

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Speaker 1: women spend nursing their newborns and claimed that quote women

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Speaker 1: don't make it to the top because they don't deserve

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Speaker 1: to now. Of course he then resigned. Um but and

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Speaker 1: of course that was also eleven years ago, so we

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Speaker 1: would hope that things have progressed since then. Unfortunately, we

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Speaker 1: also have in June six, rap CEO that's wrap acronym

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Speaker 1: r app. This isn't that horrible creative director in San

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Speaker 1: Antonio coming back again? Rap CEO Alexei or Law resigned

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Speaker 1: after being sued for destructive behavior. The suit claimed that

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Speaker 1: he had referred to multiple women as fat cows. Oh

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Speaker 1: it doesn't stop there. He told a Jewish employee that

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Speaker 1: he was miserly with money. He refused to promote a

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Speaker 1: female executive because she was two pretty uh, And he

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Speaker 1: once told a meeting of approximately seventy employees in Dallas,

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Speaker 1: mess with my brand or my direction, and I will

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Speaker 1: break off your finger and shove it up your deep um.

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Speaker 1: Which Actually, that last one I think is kind of

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Speaker 1: funny because I feel like I might have said something

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Speaker 1: like that as a writer in an in house marketing

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Speaker 1: department more than once. And and it was a sentiment

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Speaker 1: supported by my creative director, symons. There you go, stop

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Speaker 1: messing with our creative decisions. Marketing team yeah, I feel

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Speaker 1: like that statement of his is the least offensive, just

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Speaker 1: because just because you use a sort of bad word

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Speaker 1: and threaten someone, that's I feel like that's the least Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's the least problematic of the rest of those things. Well,

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Speaker 1: and the next thing that we have to tackle is

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Speaker 1: the elephant in the industry right now that actually inspired

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Speaker 1: us to take two episodes to look into it is

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Speaker 1: sexual harassment, because it is still a huge problem. And

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Speaker 1: before we get into it, I just want to quickly

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Speaker 1: travel back to our first episode and sort of where

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Speaker 1: everything left off, where you have women being accepted into

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Speaker 1: the early industry for their quote unquote female viewpoint to

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Speaker 1: sell this idealized um and sexualized often portrayal of women,

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Speaker 1: and it seems like these same kinds of values are

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Speaker 1: regurgitated and recycled within the industry itself. It's like, you know,

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Speaker 1: maybe the the ad folks thought they could outsmart the

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Speaker 1: sexism they were selling, but indeed, no not. So we're

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Speaker 1: going to talk about that when we come right back

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Speaker 1: from a quick break and now back to the show. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So Kristen said that we were going to talk about

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Speaker 1: the sexual harassment elephant. So it's a big problem. It's

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Speaker 1: a big elephant. It's a big old elephant. Um, we're

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Speaker 1: gonna start you off with some stats that seem pretty bad,

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Speaker 1: and then they're gonna get worse. Okay, So I just

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Speaker 1: want to prepare you that three percent conference did a study.

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Speaker 1: They found that of women in advertising said that they

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Speaker 1: had personally experienced gender discrimination, said that they had personally

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Speaker 1: experienced or witnessed sexual harassment. Okay, that's a large chunk.

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Speaker 1: That's a quarter of ad women saying that they had

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Speaker 1: experienced or witness sexual harassment. But that trade groupe, the

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Speaker 1: four A's, they've done a more recent survey this year

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Speaker 1: in sixteen, and they found that more than half of

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Speaker 1: the women that they surveyed had experienced sexual harassment at

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Speaker 1: least once. And I would be willing to bet, as

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Speaker 1: is the case so often, that that number is actually

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Speaker 1: higher because you've got to keep in mind that there

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Speaker 1: are people who love that culture, that rough and tumble,

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Speaker 1: say whatever the f you want, fast paced, competitive, creative culture.

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Speaker 1: They love it even if a butt grab or a

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Speaker 1: snide comment comes along with it. Yeah, I mean. And

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Speaker 1: and also just think about the fact that objectification is

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Speaker 1: kind of part of the job. You know, I'm not

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Speaker 1: trying to cast all of advertising is one giant villain.

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Speaker 1: But um, and I'm sure that it's different from agency

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Speaker 1: to agency and department to department. Um, but you have

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Speaker 1: a lot of elements just within the very work that

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Speaker 1: you're doing that it seems like would would foster that

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Speaker 1: kind of behavior. Also in sixteen, in March, jw t's

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Speaker 1: chief communications officer, Aaron Johnson, filed a suit against Gustavo Martinez,

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Speaker 1: the chief executive, and this lawsuit has kind of sent

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Speaker 1: ripples across the industry. UM. Johnson alleges that he subjected

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Speaker 1: employees to quote an unending stream of racist and sexist comments,

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Speaker 1: as well as unwanted touching and other unlawful conduct, and

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Speaker 1: that he made numerous comments about rape and on multiple

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Speaker 1: occasions quote grabbed Johnson by the throat and by the

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Speaker 1: back of her neck. Yeah. Okay, So that leads me

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Speaker 1: to a quote that my eyes almost blugged out of

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Speaker 1: my head because here's the thing. There is that stuff

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Speaker 1: going on, but a lot of the sexism in the

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Speaker 1: industry tends to be more insidious, It tends to be

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Speaker 1: a little more under the surface. Uh, in terms of

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Speaker 1: excluding women or or whatever, rather than like outright physical

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Speaker 1: assault basically. And the New York Times did some great

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Speaker 1: interviews with a bunch of badass boss ladies and advertising

428
00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:13,920
Speaker 1: in media, and one of the women literally had the

429
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 1: quote of, yeah, all that rape talk happens, But a

430
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:21,320
Speaker 1: lot of the sexual harassment is just more in attitudes.

431
00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:24,480
Speaker 1: It's more systemic and under the surface. It's like whoa, whoa,

432
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:34,080
Speaker 1: you just dismissed rape talk. Oh okay, So maybe perhaps

433
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:36,080
Speaker 1: there's a little bit of like a boy's will be

434
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:41,120
Speaker 1: boys attitude going on. And um, the by far and

435
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:46,520
Speaker 1: away the type of of sexism that was discussed loudly

436
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:49,400
Speaker 1: by women in the industry was just the issue of

437
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:53,640
Speaker 1: being ignored and excluded and overlooked. So the women in

438
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:56,840
Speaker 1: this New York Times article cited things like being left

439
00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:59,840
Speaker 1: out of business meetings that were couched in social event

440
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:02,560
Speaker 1: so not going to the golf game, the stake din er,

441
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:05,080
Speaker 1: the box seats, the scotch drinking sessh. All of those

442
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:08,600
Speaker 1: dude club activities where it's like, no, this is just

443
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:13,480
Speaker 1: for the boys. Um. In some cases literally being overlooked men,

444
00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:15,800
Speaker 1: assuming you're not the partner or the boss or the

445
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:19,360
Speaker 1: director whoever you are, um but also being overlooked for

446
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:23,920
Speaker 1: promotions and decision making roles. Thirty three percent of women

447
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:27,280
Speaker 1: in one of those four a's surveys said that there

448
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:29,120
Speaker 1: have been at least a few times when they haven't

449
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:33,560
Speaker 1: received the assignments of promotions they wanted because of outright discrimination,

450
00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:39,640
Speaker 1: and told the survey takers that discrimination had led to

451
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:44,960
Speaker 1: their exclusion from decision making. So, uh, no, big surprise

452
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:47,200
Speaker 1: that more than half of respondents in that for AS

453
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:50,840
Speaker 1: surveys said that their gender made them feel either somewhat

454
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:56,920
Speaker 1: or very vulnerable to discrimination, and almost two thirds either

455
00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 1: agreed somewhat or totally that there were times that they

456
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:04,240
Speaker 1: pers only experienced discrimination without even recognizing it only in hindsight.

457
00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:08,680
Speaker 1: Are you're like, oh wait what, oh yeah, that's part

458
00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:10,920
Speaker 1: of the thing of like if if something, if you

459
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:13,000
Speaker 1: feel that something is just an aspect of the culture

460
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:16,320
Speaker 1: and that you again are just in the trenches at

461
00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:19,760
Speaker 1: four am with your co workers, you you might not

462
00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:24,400
Speaker 1: think of it necessarily as discrimination or as completely outlandish

463
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:28,160
Speaker 1: and uncalled for. And the thing is, it's not that

464
00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:32,000
Speaker 1: women have not tried to call it out, but again,

465
00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:35,360
Speaker 1: you have to keep in mind the culture um. Also

466
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:37,400
Speaker 1: in The New York Times, a lot of those women

467
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:40,120
Speaker 1: that they talked to said that when they have tried

468
00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:46,680
Speaker 1: to have discussions about sexism in the office, male executives

469
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:51,200
Speaker 1: tend to become very uncomfortable and close the conversation very quickly,

470
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:56,600
Speaker 1: whether we're talking about um, gender discrimination or racial discrimination. Yeah,

471
00:31:56,680 --> 00:31:58,840
Speaker 1: and and a lot of those women themselves said that

472
00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:02,959
Speaker 1: they had trouble even bringing up the issue of sexism

473
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:06,080
Speaker 1: or gender bias in the industry. And a lot of

474
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:09,480
Speaker 1: the women would not even to The New York Times

475
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:14,160
Speaker 1: provide specifics about gender bias or harassment or anything like

476
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:17,120
Speaker 1: that that they had seen because they were more concerned

477
00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:20,040
Speaker 1: about protecting their relationships in the industry. And there just

478
00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:24,240
Speaker 1: seems to be a general attitude um among too many

479
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:29,280
Speaker 1: male leaders in the industry that it's just someone else's problem,

480
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:33,760
Speaker 1: which leads us to the ulster of uh SACCI and

481
00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:37,520
Speaker 1: SACCI chairman Kevin Roberts, who was also the head coach

482
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:43,160
Speaker 1: at the advertising agency's parent company, Publicist Group, who said

483
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:47,400
Speaker 1: that he just doesn't spend any time on gender issues

484
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:50,680
Speaker 1: as agencies at all. I mean, I don't know if

485
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:57,160
Speaker 1: Roberts was doing conducting this Business Insider interview over some

486
00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:05,880
Speaker 1: scotches because he just said so so many mind boggling

487
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:11,680
Speaker 1: and just blind statements about how like, no, you know this,

488
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:15,160
Speaker 1: it really doesn't exist. I mean, he was like this,

489
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:18,800
Speaker 1: he was way worse than sectors like financial services, where

490
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:22,600
Speaker 1: there are problems left right and center. The essentially trying

491
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:26,320
Speaker 1: to claim that sexism within the advertising industry is a

492
00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:30,480
Speaker 1: moot point and it's solved. And at one point it

493
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:35,720
Speaker 1: kind of seemed like he was trying to say that we,

494
00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:41,360
Speaker 1: since we recognize that there had been a problem, that

495
00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:44,000
Speaker 1: that's all the progress we need, but that that the

496
00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:47,880
Speaker 1: debate he framed it as the debate over gender discrimination

497
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:50,240
Speaker 1: is over, which I was like, maybe he means that,

498
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:52,760
Speaker 1: like we aren't debating that it's a fact anymore. But

499
00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:57,800
Speaker 1: then as he continued talking and completely marginalizing women's experiences

500
00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:02,160
Speaker 1: of gender discrimination and sexual harassment, it became very clear

501
00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:07,040
Speaker 1: that Mr Roberts is very out of touch. Yeah, I mean,

502
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:09,319
Speaker 1: he basically said that, well, my group doesn't have a

503
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:13,200
Speaker 1: problem because there are so many women in uh, there's

504
00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:15,600
Speaker 1: so many women on staff, so we don't we don't

505
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:19,120
Speaker 1: need to worry about it. Um, And he even took

506
00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:23,879
Speaker 1: like you could almost read that article and be like, I, okay,

507
00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:26,319
Speaker 1: I can see like the people who are defending you

508
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:28,759
Speaker 1: and saying that you're misunderstood, Like I can almost see

509
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:31,200
Speaker 1: where they're coming from. But he takes all of these

510
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:35,120
Speaker 1: pot shots at Cindy Gallup, who is another ad industry

511
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 1: veteran and someone who is a very vocal and active

512
00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:44,719
Speaker 1: advocate for diversity um in the industry. And she so

513
00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:46,759
Speaker 1: she would not be one of those women in the

514
00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:49,839
Speaker 1: New York Times who was unwilling to speak about sexismmer

515
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:53,640
Speaker 1: or gender bias. Uh. And he basically said that, uh,

516
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:56,279
Speaker 1: Cindy just wants to get up on her soapbox and

517
00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:58,719
Speaker 1: get attention. Yeah, she's just kind of making it up,

518
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:02,520
Speaker 1: kicking up some dirt um. And he patted himself on

519
00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:07,800
Speaker 1: the back because granted, Publicist group does have about gender

520
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:13,400
Speaker 1: split among its staff um, while around sixty of Sacchi

521
00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:17,560
Speaker 1: and Sacchi is female, you know, so looking at his

522
00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:22,719
Speaker 1: own backyard, he's like, the sexual discrimination does not exist.

523
00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:25,680
Speaker 1: But then the point where I was like, oh no,

524
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:30,040
Speaker 1: or I started stopped giving him any benefit of any

525
00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:34,760
Speaker 1: doubt was when when he starts spiraling into this whole

526
00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:40,040
Speaker 1: idea that millennial women don't want to be creative directors

527
00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 1: and executives. They just enjoy doing the work. He said, quote.

528
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:48,840
Speaker 1: Their ambition is not a vertical ambition. It's this intrinsic,

529
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:54,520
Speaker 1: circular ambition to be happy, to which I wanted to

530
00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:58,080
Speaker 1: throw my laptop out the window because I have felt

531
00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:03,520
Speaker 1: that sentiment directly from male managers before. And oh, it's

532
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 1: making me so mad just to think about right now,

533
00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:10,799
Speaker 1: the idea that I derived just pleasure solely from my

534
00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:14,920
Speaker 1: work and I don't need to be compensated equitably for that. No,

535
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:19,720
Speaker 1: you are sorely mistaken, bra Women are a flat circle.

536
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:24,360
Speaker 1: Women's ambition is a flat circle. Um. Well, the fallout

537
00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:26,799
Speaker 1: is that he was immediately forced to take a leave

538
00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:30,960
Speaker 1: about of absence, but rather than being fired, he is

539
00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 1: resigning and his last day was set to be September one.

540
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:40,560
Speaker 1: And the plus side of that Business Insider article, which

541
00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:42,920
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, I just wonder for that journalists like

542
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:46,040
Speaker 1: as the interview was happening, you know, if they were

543
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:49,160
Speaker 1: thinking like, oh my god, this is well, is this real?

544
00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:52,840
Speaker 1: Is this really happening? Like the way it's written, the

545
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:55,560
Speaker 1: journalists keeps saying like and and then we brought up

546
00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:57,879
Speaker 1: the issue of this and he said this crazy thing.

547
00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:00,000
Speaker 1: And then we we said, well wait, but what about

548
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:02,480
Speaker 1: about this? And he said this crazy thing. Yeah. At

549
00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:05,399
Speaker 1: certain points it seems like the journalists trying to kind

550
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:08,360
Speaker 1: of help him out a little bit. But now Kevin Roberts,

551
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:13,040
Speaker 1: you know, he he really knows women, so he should

552
00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:17,680
Speaker 1: get like a Cosmo column. Um. But but the the

553
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:21,040
Speaker 1: great thing was to kind of watch it unfold through

554
00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:27,400
Speaker 1: Cyndy Gallops Twitter, because you know she she was right. Um,

555
00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:33,719
Speaker 1: And this has kicked off this larger conversation that a

556
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:37,160
Speaker 1: lot of people are having a both because of um,

557
00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:42,920
Speaker 1: that lawsuit that Aaron Johnson brought also of course, um,

558
00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:47,279
Speaker 1: Kevin Roberts leaving, and that for as survey finding so

559
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:50,480
Speaker 1: much sexual harassment. It seems like, you know, the industry

560
00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:53,400
Speaker 1: is at this point of like, Okay, what are we

561
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:55,600
Speaker 1: going to do about this? Yeah? Well they I mean

562
00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:58,239
Speaker 1: they better be asking themselves that because there are far

563
00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:01,759
Speaker 1: broader implications for all of this nastiness than just kind

564
00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:05,600
Speaker 1: of a hostile working environment. I mean, if we're looking

565
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:10,399
Speaker 1: inside the agency's like, if you're working in this type

566
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:14,360
Speaker 1: of environment, female creatives or people of color in general

567
00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:17,479
Speaker 1: might struggle to get new ideas approved or push through

568
00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:21,400
Speaker 1: if the bulk of creative directors are white men, which

569
00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:24,920
Speaker 1: the bulk of creative directors are white men. Um, And

570
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:27,880
Speaker 1: you know this ends up creating this inherent bias in

571
00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:30,600
Speaker 1: portrayals of women and people of color in the actual

572
00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:36,040
Speaker 1: advertisements themselves. Because think about it here, in still a

573
00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:39,080
Speaker 1: lot of the ads we see, uh fall back on

574
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:43,200
Speaker 1: stereotypical gender roles, to say nothing of heteronormativity. I mean,

575
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:46,839
Speaker 1: when you see the occasional ad with like a same

576
00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:51,160
Speaker 1: sex couple or an interracial couple, I mean there's a

577
00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:53,799
Speaker 1: lot of like to me, warm fuzzies. But to the

578
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:57,520
Speaker 1: rest of the Internet, a lot of people are freaking out, Yeah,

579
00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:02,480
Speaker 1: oh oh for the day when um, same sex couple

580
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:07,160
Speaker 1: commercial doesn't go viral, you know what I mean, because

581
00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:11,719
Speaker 1: it's not it's not such a such an extraordinary thing

582
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:15,640
Speaker 1: to see, right. And then when you are looking outside

583
00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:19,719
Speaker 1: of the agency at female consumers, one massive problem that

584
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:25,360
Speaker 1: results from having these inherent biases in the creators is

585
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:29,040
Speaker 1: that female consumers don't end up seeing themselves properly reflected

586
00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:32,320
Speaker 1: in the ads they're looking at. Even though women control

587
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:36,480
Speaker 1: about eighty percent of consumer spending. Yeah, there was um

588
00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:40,800
Speaker 1: a study conducted by Unilever which found that of women

589
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:46,719
Speaker 1: don't recognize the faces being reflected back at them in advertising. Uh.

590
00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:50,000
Speaker 1: In other words, when I'm watching one of those yogurt

591
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:54,560
Speaker 1: commercials where the women treat eating yogurt like winning the

592
00:39:54,600 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 1: lottery or really more accurately, like having really terrific sex, uh,

593
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:03,879
Speaker 1: I don't know that woman. Like that woman is not me?

594
00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:11,000
Speaker 1: And I like yogurt, Caroline yogurt almost every day. Um,

595
00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:14,120
Speaker 1: do I want to date yogurt? No? Do I want

596
00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:17,000
Speaker 1: to spend a Friday night in with a silk robe

597
00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:23,000
Speaker 1: on with my yogurt? Is yogurt a Swedish man yogurt? Maybe?

598
00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:27,680
Speaker 1: So then if yogurt were my Swedish missus, then we

599
00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:36,000
Speaker 1: can talk perfect But okay, Solver youn Leiver broke it down, like,

600
00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:39,720
Speaker 1: why are women not recognizing themselves reflected in these ads?

601
00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:45,479
Speaker 1: And it's because, according to their tally, just three percent

602
00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:48,520
Speaker 1: of the women in the advertisements were portrayed in leadership roles.

603
00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:52,680
Speaker 1: Two percent. We're portrayed as intelligent and one person that

604
00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:56,360
Speaker 1: we're portrayed. That's funny. I mean there should be no surprise. Hello,

605
00:40:56,520 --> 00:41:00,239
Speaker 1: Just like think of like dish so bad's right where

606
00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:04,000
Speaker 1: the wife it's a buzz kill. She's wearing a green

607
00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:07,160
Speaker 1: vnux sweater. Uh, she's got to like take care of

608
00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:09,160
Speaker 1: the kids. And she's yelling at the husband and the

609
00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:11,719
Speaker 1: dad as a du fist, which, by the way, is

610
00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:14,239
Speaker 1: something that Cinndey Gallop also takes issue with. It's not

611
00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:18,400
Speaker 1: just portraying women as idiots, but it's portraying men as

612
00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:21,800
Speaker 1: idiots too, like and and I feel like there's a

613
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:24,719
Speaker 1: greater cultural push against both of those things beyond just

614
00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:27,080
Speaker 1: Cindy Gallop's efforts. I feel like more people are waking

615
00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:29,399
Speaker 1: up to the fact of, like, hey, not all men

616
00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:32,440
Speaker 1: are idiots in the kitchen or idiots with their children,

617
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:35,200
Speaker 1: just the same way as not all women are hanging

618
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:37,239
Speaker 1: out in the kitchen with their kids all day. Yeah.

619
00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:41,319
Speaker 1: And and that's a form of sexism as well. Um

620
00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:45,800
Speaker 1: he has. And and speaking of those dishwashing detergent commercials,

621
00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:50,920
Speaker 1: there was one, um not too long ago, where these

622
00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:53,880
Speaker 1: two women, I want to say they were sisters, and

623
00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:58,360
Speaker 1: one was really good at getting her dishes really spotless,

624
00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:00,600
Speaker 1: and the other one wasn't so good at it. And

625
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:05,320
Speaker 1: they have this whole rivalry because of it. It's just like, again,

626
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:10,040
Speaker 1: who are those women like? Because let me know, so

627
00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:13,560
Speaker 1: I can make sure I am never around them unless

628
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:17,520
Speaker 1: they want to talk dishwasher loading, in which case you know,

629
00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:19,359
Speaker 1: I enjoy it. You have a lot to say there,

630
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:21,759
Speaker 1: I know. Um, But the whole thing that that Uni

631
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:26,800
Speaker 1: lever figure is that it might actually in reality be worse.

632
00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:30,359
Speaker 1: So Cat Gordon, who's the founder and creative director of

633
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:34,279
Speaker 1: the marketing agency Maternal Instinct, which she started because she

634
00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:38,000
Speaker 1: was like, marketing to mother's is the worst, Like people

635
00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:41,399
Speaker 1: are terrible at it. Uh. She cited a study in

636
00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:46,200
Speaker 1: which of female consumers said brands didn't understand them. So

637
00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:51,240
Speaker 1: what irony looking back at our first episode where women

638
00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:53,600
Speaker 1: were first hired into the industry at the turn of

639
00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:58,800
Speaker 1: the century for the female point of view to get

640
00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:06,239
Speaker 1: into women heads, and now today in of female customers,

641
00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:10,360
Speaker 1: I think that brands don't understand them. Yeah. Well, but

642
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:14,840
Speaker 1: I guess the silver lining of that is I feel

643
00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:18,520
Speaker 1: better about like strangers around me on the street because

644
00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:21,439
Speaker 1: that just means like I have more in common with

645
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:25,000
Speaker 1: stranger ladies than I than I thought I did. Because

646
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:28,440
Speaker 1: if those ads are speaking if many, if if the

647
00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:31,360
Speaker 1: majority of ads are speaking to a lot of women again,

648
00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:34,880
Speaker 1: like who are these yogurt ladies laughing over over dairy

649
00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:37,960
Speaker 1: products and salads? And who are the women like in

650
00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:42,200
Speaker 1: fields with balloons and birth control ads? I mean, honestly,

651
00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:45,520
Speaker 1: I'd go to that field. I wish I identified with

652
00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:48,960
Speaker 1: with that care free balloon holding woman, birth control meadow,

653
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:57,240
Speaker 1: contraception cavern, uh, contraception cavern? Is that where yogurt lives.

654
00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:05,120
Speaker 1: But of course it's not just female consumers and not

655
00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:10,000
Speaker 1: seeing themselves represented well, um, arguably it's even worse for

656
00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:14,200
Speaker 1: older people, people of color, of course, same sex couples,

657
00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:18,879
Speaker 1: gender nonconforming people. I mean, let's let's get stereotypical here.

658
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:22,000
Speaker 1: I mean you see old older people, are elderly people

659
00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:26,799
Speaker 1: in like viagra ads when I am watching CNN in

660
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:30,000
Speaker 1: the late morning hours. I see black people in ads

661
00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:34,040
Speaker 1: when it's for like predatory lending stuff and and things

662
00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:38,200
Speaker 1: like terrible insurance companies. Um, and same sex couples again,

663
00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:40,760
Speaker 1: like I think they had that one sup ad that time,

664
00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:43,560
Speaker 1: and or cereal and I've never seen them again. Well

665
00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:48,360
Speaker 1: that the Cheerios was the biracial couple Hallmark does it,

666
00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:53,719
Speaker 1: you know, Valentine's Day, same sex couple, um commercials. So

667
00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:56,839
Speaker 1: maybe you know, diversity is just kind of seasonal for

668
00:44:57,120 --> 00:44:59,560
Speaker 1: you know, for different holidays, we trot out like a

669
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:03,759
Speaker 1: different group, like handing out Kenny, like well here here's yours, um,

670
00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:08,600
Speaker 1: you know, and people just deserve better. People deserve better.

671
00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:10,840
Speaker 1: And it might sound silly to say, because it's like

672
00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:13,840
Speaker 1: it's just advertising. Why why should someone who seven d

673
00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:18,000
Speaker 1: care if they're not, because they don't stop being a

674
00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:21,480
Speaker 1: person with needs and wants. They don't stop being a consumer.

675
00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:24,319
Speaker 1: If anything, the older you get, the more established in

676
00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:27,359
Speaker 1: your life and your bank account you are. So I mean,

677
00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:30,480
Speaker 1: older people are basically like the most important people that

678
00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:33,759
Speaker 1: politicians pander too because they're the ones who go out

679
00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:38,600
Speaker 1: and vote. But apparently they're not worth like putting in advertising.

680
00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:44,759
Speaker 1: And it matters too because advertising influences and reinforces our

681
00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:49,560
Speaker 1: stereotypes and our biases about all of these different groups

682
00:45:49,560 --> 00:45:53,919
Speaker 1: of people. Obviously, like advertising is not going to bring

683
00:45:54,040 --> 00:45:57,439
Speaker 1: us world peace, but good grief, they can definitely do better,

684
00:45:57,480 --> 00:46:00,960
Speaker 1: and a lot of people in the industry want it

685
00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:04,640
Speaker 1: to do better. Yeah, So Janet Keston, whom we cited earlier,

686
00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:09,520
Speaker 1: points out very helpfully that the role of women isn't

687
00:46:09,560 --> 00:46:13,279
Speaker 1: a women's issue, it's a human issue. Everybody needs to

688
00:46:13,320 --> 00:46:15,240
Speaker 1: be part of it for things to change. Of course,

689
00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:19,040
Speaker 1: that sort of echoing Hillary Clinton's speech back in the nineties.

690
00:46:19,719 --> 00:46:21,920
Speaker 1: Um and again, you know, I said that she started

691
00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:25,480
Speaker 1: swim with her partner, that partners, Nancy vonk And so

692
00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:29,000
Speaker 1: they are pushing to get more women included and heard

693
00:46:29,080 --> 00:46:32,960
Speaker 1: and hired and advertising and mentoring them as well. Um.

694
00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:35,080
Speaker 1: And you know, like I said earlier, there's a lot

695
00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:41,120
Speaker 1: of talk now about childcare assistants destigmatizing flex time. So like,

696
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:43,759
Speaker 1: you know, it's great to have a flexible job where

697
00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:46,000
Speaker 1: you're not shunned for, like I don't know, going to

698
00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:50,720
Speaker 1: the doctor. Um, there's talk around the wage gap obviously

699
00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:55,080
Speaker 1: that's a huge conversation, and even implementing bias training, which

700
00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:59,720
Speaker 1: I think sounds amazing and should be mandatory for every

701
00:46:59,800 --> 00:47:03,080
Speaker 1: human one person. Yeah, because we all have BIOSes, we

702
00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:07,520
Speaker 1: all have internal biases, regardless of how you know, perfectly

703
00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:13,600
Speaker 1: social justice wiring we might be. Um And finally to

704
00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:18,760
Speaker 1: accentuating the positives happening within the industry by spotlighting women's

705
00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:22,919
Speaker 1: accomplishments instead of I don't know, like being a couple

706
00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:26,400
Speaker 1: of feminist podcasters talking about how terrible it is for

707
00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:30,240
Speaker 1: an hour exactly. Well, one person who's definitely been working

708
00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:33,880
Speaker 1: to affect positive change is Nancy Hill, who is the

709
00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:37,319
Speaker 1: president and CEO for now of of the four as.

710
00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:40,440
Speaker 1: I think she's stepping down here pretty soon, but she

711
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:42,359
Speaker 1: says that we need to start at the top and

712
00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:46,279
Speaker 1: that every add CEO ad agency CEO needs to make

713
00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:49,920
Speaker 1: Hammera herself the company's chief diversity officer. Basically, make it

714
00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:54,040
Speaker 1: you are personal business to ensure that there's a diversity

715
00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:57,520
Speaker 1: of viewpoints. Uh. Cindy Gallup, who we've sited a couple

716
00:47:57,560 --> 00:48:00,640
Speaker 1: of times now, says that there's a raw at the

717
00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:05,319
Speaker 1: top of the industry spreading and still spreading in the

718
00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:07,800
Speaker 1: most appalling way, and then it needs to be stopped

719
00:48:08,120 --> 00:48:11,520
Speaker 1: in its tracks. And Hill says one way to do

720
00:48:11,560 --> 00:48:14,680
Speaker 1: that is to encourage young women to pursue leadership positions.

721
00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:18,600
Speaker 1: Begin that bias training that we mentioned, and also level

722
00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:22,920
Speaker 1: hiring practices she recommends, and some agencies do this implementing

723
00:48:22,920 --> 00:48:27,280
Speaker 1: a blind resume process where um any gender or ethnic

724
00:48:27,320 --> 00:48:31,160
Speaker 1: identifiers at all are redacted. Basically, but one thing I

725
00:48:31,200 --> 00:48:34,080
Speaker 1: want to mention with the tip to encourage young women

726
00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:38,040
Speaker 1: to pursue leadership positions is Nancy Hill. That is a

727
00:48:38,080 --> 00:48:42,120
Speaker 1: great idea, But remember that mentor gap. I mean we

728
00:48:42,239 --> 00:48:47,840
Speaker 1: still women also need those role models too, because to me,

729
00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:52,440
Speaker 1: it's just much easier said than done to make that happen.

730
00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:54,680
Speaker 1: You can encourage women all day long, but if they

731
00:48:54,719 --> 00:48:57,120
Speaker 1: don't actually have the resources to move up, then what

732
00:48:57,160 --> 00:48:59,359
Speaker 1: are you gonna do? Right? And one thing I think

733
00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:02,080
Speaker 1: that's worth reiterating. We read it in some of the

734
00:49:02,080 --> 00:49:04,800
Speaker 1: sources for this episode. We've obviously read it and sources

735
00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:08,200
Speaker 1: for many an episode of Sminty. Um. But change doesn't

736
00:49:08,239 --> 00:49:12,040
Speaker 1: just happen. Um. We like to think that it will.

737
00:49:12,080 --> 00:49:15,479
Speaker 1: Like I'm a woman, I'm here, surely things are getting better.

738
00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:19,120
Speaker 1: That's a fallacy. Just because you are a woman in

739
00:49:19,160 --> 00:49:22,320
Speaker 1: the room, uh, doesn't mean that other women will somehow

740
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:27,319
Speaker 1: benefit from that just happening. And so it's really on

741
00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:31,120
Speaker 1: uh kind of every everybody in the ad industry. These

742
00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:34,440
Speaker 1: these women have argued to help lift other women up

743
00:49:34,440 --> 00:49:37,920
Speaker 1: and encourage them and service those role models. And we

744
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:40,680
Speaker 1: hope to hear from a lot of you listening. Um,

745
00:49:40,719 --> 00:49:42,520
Speaker 1: I know that there are a lot of folks in

746
00:49:42,680 --> 00:49:45,680
Speaker 1: the ad industry listening to this podcast right now, guys

747
00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:50,160
Speaker 1: who want to hear from you as well, because you know,

748
00:49:50,239 --> 00:49:53,080
Speaker 1: we we could really talk about this for hours and hours.

749
00:49:53,200 --> 00:49:57,879
Speaker 1: We have just offered a very broad brush um assessment

750
00:49:58,120 --> 00:50:00,880
Speaker 1: of the bad things that are how opening. So I mean,

751
00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:05,080
Speaker 1: obviously like positive stuff we would love to hear personal

752
00:50:05,080 --> 00:50:08,319
Speaker 1: experience we would love to hear. And also, I mean,

753
00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:10,640
Speaker 1: is it really on the ground day to day? Is

754
00:50:10,680 --> 00:50:15,600
Speaker 1: it as toxic as the headlines would suggest and as

755
00:50:15,640 --> 00:50:19,760
Speaker 1: Cindy Gallop would suggest. Um. Also, Cindy Gallop, if you're listening, Hello,

756
00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:24,359
Speaker 1: I love your Twitter, um, but we want to hear

757
00:50:24,360 --> 00:50:27,239
Speaker 1: from you. Mom Stuff at how Stuff Works dot com

758
00:50:27,360 --> 00:50:30,359
Speaker 1: is our email address. You can also tweet us at

759
00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:33,799
Speaker 1: Mom's Stuff podcast. You can message us on Facebook, and

760
00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:36,120
Speaker 1: we've got a couple of messages to share with you

761
00:50:36,640 --> 00:50:41,759
Speaker 1: right now. All right, Well, I have a letter here

762
00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:46,400
Speaker 1: from Chiesa in response to our gymnastics episode. Uh So,

763
00:50:46,760 --> 00:50:51,200
Speaker 1: Cheesa is one of the gymnastics experts that we asked

764
00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:54,760
Speaker 1: to write in. She says that she's a judge, a coach,

765
00:50:54,920 --> 00:50:57,960
Speaker 1: and a former gymnast and so she has some some

766
00:50:58,040 --> 00:51:01,560
Speaker 1: stints some two cents to throw in for us. So

767
00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:06,719
Speaker 1: regarding makeup, one percent not required. It is totally the

768
00:51:06,719 --> 00:51:09,280
Speaker 1: preference of the gymnast and not at all an aspect

769
00:51:09,280 --> 00:51:12,880
Speaker 1: of the scoring. A better gymnast without makeup will absolutely

770
00:51:12,920 --> 00:51:15,640
Speaker 1: beat the dolled up gymnast. As a judge, you're watching

771
00:51:15,640 --> 00:51:18,279
Speaker 1: the body, not the hair or the face. Regarding the hair,

772
00:51:18,480 --> 00:51:20,840
Speaker 1: saying hair can be worn in any style they choose,

773
00:51:20,840 --> 00:51:22,720
Speaker 1: with the main goal of keeping it out of the face,

774
00:51:22,760 --> 00:51:25,839
Speaker 1: which is for injury prevention. This only becomes a part

775
00:51:25,840 --> 00:51:28,040
Speaker 1: of scoring if the hair indeed does get in the

776
00:51:28,080 --> 00:51:31,839
Speaker 1: gymnast's way and impacts her performance. The part about people

777
00:51:31,880 --> 00:51:35,120
Speaker 1: talking about Gabby's hair is completely ridiculous and they're awful.

778
00:51:35,719 --> 00:51:38,959
Speaker 1: Regarding nail polish, old school rule, it was abolished about

779
00:51:39,000 --> 00:51:41,680
Speaker 1: ten years ago. Back in the day, it was considered distracting.

780
00:51:41,960 --> 00:51:43,960
Speaker 1: But you'll see in Rio that many of the gymnasts

781
00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:46,719
Speaker 1: get cute, patriotic mannies. So yeah for getting rid of

782
00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:51,680
Speaker 1: weird old rules. Regarding the sparkly leotards, I heard a

783
00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:54,520
Speaker 1: lot in the Olympics broadcast about the shiny and sparkly

784
00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:57,600
Speaker 1: leo's that were purchased for thousands of dollars to quote

785
00:51:57,600 --> 00:52:00,319
Speaker 1: make the gymnasts stand out. I can get in tea

786
00:52:00,400 --> 00:52:03,800
Speaker 1: that the judges, especially at the level the Olympic judges are,

787
00:52:03,840 --> 00:52:08,879
Speaker 1: are absolutely not taking leotard's shiny nous sparkliness into consideration

788
00:52:09,040 --> 00:52:11,680
Speaker 1: for scoring. To me, it's a silly do whatever it

789
00:52:11,719 --> 00:52:14,960
Speaker 1: takes mentality cultivated over long time, weird legends in the

790
00:52:15,040 --> 00:52:18,440
Speaker 1: sport because I totally used to play into it as

791
00:52:18,440 --> 00:52:21,719
Speaker 1: a gymnast, but as a judge, I never remember a leotard.

792
00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:24,520
Speaker 1: I remember the gymnast and the skills she's doing. The

793
00:52:24,600 --> 00:52:27,799
Speaker 1: audience should totally appreciate a beautiful leo for what it is.

794
00:52:27,800 --> 00:52:32,160
Speaker 1: Though regarding smiling, there is one specific role in the

795
00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:35,200
Speaker 1: book regarding this, stating that the routine quote should reflect

796
00:52:35,239 --> 00:52:39,200
Speaker 1: the gymnasts personality and personal performance style. As you can

797
00:52:39,239 --> 00:52:42,080
Speaker 1: see when watching a gymnast like Laurie Hernandez on the floor,

798
00:52:42,200 --> 00:52:44,719
Speaker 1: it is much more appealing to watch for both the

799
00:52:44,760 --> 00:52:48,960
Speaker 1: audience and judges alike when they have some showmanship. Therefore,

800
00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:51,760
Speaker 1: this very small deduction is input in order to reward

801
00:52:51,880 --> 00:52:56,600
Speaker 1: I catching routines like this. No specific roles about actually smiling.

802
00:52:57,920 --> 00:53:00,600
Speaker 1: Regarding open ended scoring, I agree with you about how

803
00:53:00,600 --> 00:53:03,960
Speaker 1: limiting the ten was. Open ended scoring is used only

804
00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:07,719
Speaker 1: in professional level gymnastics as it does encourage difficulty and

805
00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:10,640
Speaker 1: separate those who perform it. You can see how much

806
00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:12,960
Speaker 1: it has advanced in the time since the change was

807
00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:16,760
Speaker 1: implemented see Simone Biles for example. If Mary leu Written

808
00:53:16,840 --> 00:53:20,800
Speaker 1: was performing today, her routines are child's play next to

809
00:53:20,840 --> 00:53:24,120
Speaker 1: the routines of today. Also due to technology increases, et cetera,

810
00:53:24,280 --> 00:53:27,760
Speaker 1: so a solution was needed to reward today's better routines.

811
00:53:28,160 --> 00:53:31,439
Speaker 1: Another important note, the execution score, the number from which

812
00:53:31,440 --> 00:53:34,480
Speaker 1: the judges take the often referenced deductions, is still out

813
00:53:34,480 --> 00:53:36,960
Speaker 1: of a tin and it's just added on to with

814
00:53:37,040 --> 00:53:41,640
Speaker 1: difficulty points. Therefore, gymnasts are still technically striving for the

815
00:53:41,680 --> 00:53:47,320
Speaker 1: perfect ten execution. She says, sorry for the novel, go dogs,

816
00:53:48,600 --> 00:53:51,520
Speaker 1: Thank you, Tisa. Well, I've got a letter here from

817
00:53:51,640 --> 00:53:55,359
Speaker 1: Julie about our emotional cheating episode, and she writes, I

818
00:53:55,400 --> 00:53:57,719
Speaker 1: won't bore you with the details, but the gist is

819
00:53:57,760 --> 00:53:59,480
Speaker 1: that I've had a work spouse for the past few

820
00:53:59,560 --> 00:54:02,480
Speaker 1: years and I really cherish his friendship. You hit the

821
00:54:02,600 --> 00:54:05,040
Speaker 1: nail on the head in the work spouse episode. We're

822
00:54:05,120 --> 00:54:07,840
Speaker 1: both married to other people. Though in your emotional cheating

823
00:54:07,840 --> 00:54:11,759
Speaker 1: episode was a swift knock upside the head, it made

824
00:54:11,760 --> 00:54:14,279
Speaker 1: me realize that he and I had been in an

825
00:54:14,280 --> 00:54:18,000
Speaker 1: emotional danger zone, if not worse, for months, and are

826
00:54:18,120 --> 00:54:21,279
Speaker 1: drunken kiss ten days ago can't be solely blamed on

827
00:54:21,280 --> 00:54:23,200
Speaker 1: having too much to drink at that work happy hour.

828
00:54:23,880 --> 00:54:26,960
Speaker 1: The podcast helped me see that I've become too comfortable

829
00:54:27,080 --> 00:54:29,319
Speaker 1: with my work spouse and I need to change my

830
00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:33,560
Speaker 1: relationship with him. Thankfully, I changed jobs last week and

831
00:54:33,640 --> 00:54:36,239
Speaker 1: now I work more closely with my husband, so I

832
00:54:36,239 --> 00:54:38,520
Speaker 1: feel good about my marriage. But if it hadn't been

833
00:54:38,520 --> 00:54:41,440
Speaker 1: for your podcast, I probably would have brushed that kiss

834
00:54:41,560 --> 00:54:44,319
Speaker 1: under the rug as a drunken mistake and assume that

835
00:54:44,360 --> 00:54:46,680
Speaker 1: he and I could still be close friends. So I

836
00:54:46,719 --> 00:54:48,759
Speaker 1: wanted to say thanks for helping me to steer my

837
00:54:48,800 --> 00:54:51,680
Speaker 1: path back towards my husband. I know we've never met,

838
00:54:51,719 --> 00:54:53,440
Speaker 1: but I wanted you to both know that you're making

839
00:54:53,480 --> 00:54:56,480
Speaker 1: a meaningful difference in people's lives and we, or at

840
00:54:56,520 --> 00:55:00,200
Speaker 1: least I appreciate what you both do. Please keep it up,

841
00:55:00,719 --> 00:55:02,920
Speaker 1: Oh Julie, I'm so glad that we could be of

842
00:55:03,040 --> 00:55:06,320
Speaker 1: help um, and I'm really glad that you were able

843
00:55:06,400 --> 00:55:09,960
Speaker 1: to hop right off your job and hang more with

844
00:55:10,000 --> 00:55:13,960
Speaker 1: your husband. So I thought, ladies and gentlemen, it is

845
00:55:14,040 --> 00:55:18,360
Speaker 1: time for your emails. Mom. Stuff at how stuff works

846
00:55:18,400 --> 00:55:21,560
Speaker 1: dot com is our email address and for links to

847
00:55:21,600 --> 00:55:23,400
Speaker 1: all of our social media as well as all of

848
00:55:23,440 --> 00:55:26,799
Speaker 1: our blogs, videos and podcasts with our sources so you

849
00:55:26,880 --> 00:55:31,200
Speaker 1: two can learn even more about women in advertising. Head

850
00:55:31,239 --> 00:55:38,680
Speaker 1: on over to stuff mom Never Told You dot com

851
00:55:38,680 --> 00:55:41,120
Speaker 1: for more on this and thousands of other topics. Is

852
00:55:41,160 --> 00:55:50,160
Speaker 1: it how stuff works dot com