WEBVTT - Saudi Arabia’s ‘New Middle East’ Has a Problem: The Old One

0:00:01.360 --> 0:00:06.200
<v Speaker 1>Allegra Hi Hi, Dave. So we're in London, still thinking

0:00:06.280 --> 0:00:09.880
<v Speaker 1>about the Middle East. But of course, alongside the terrible

0:00:09.880 --> 0:00:14.840
<v Speaker 1>events in Israel and Gaza of the last week, Saudi Arabia,

0:00:14.880 --> 0:00:18.799
<v Speaker 1>the region's biggest economy, is hosting their annual conference. The

0:00:18.840 --> 0:00:22.080
<v Speaker 1>Future Investment Initiative, aims to be one of the most

0:00:22.120 --> 0:00:26.480
<v Speaker 1>significant gatherings of economic finance leaders in the world in Riad.

0:00:27.040 --> 0:00:30.240
<v Speaker 2>It's a really important event for the region, Dave. It's

0:00:30.280 --> 0:00:32.919
<v Speaker 2>often referred to as Davos in the Desert and it's

0:00:32.960 --> 0:00:35.920
<v Speaker 2>a high profile event that draws in CEOs and government

0:00:35.960 --> 0:00:38.120
<v Speaker 2>leaders from across the globe. And we thought there'd be

0:00:38.280 --> 0:00:41.960
<v Speaker 2>mass cancellations because of the events of the last two weeks,

0:00:41.960 --> 0:00:43.440
<v Speaker 2>but it doesn't appear to have been the case.

0:00:43.520 --> 0:00:47.600
<v Speaker 1>No, the lineup is looking at stellar as it has

0:00:47.640 --> 0:00:50.479
<v Speaker 1>done in the past. I mean five years ago, the

0:00:50.520 --> 0:00:55.760
<v Speaker 1>Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salmon talked about a new

0:00:55.880 --> 0:01:03.200
<v Speaker 1>era dawning for the Middle East.

0:01:04.959 --> 0:01:05.440
<v Speaker 3>So what to.

0:01:08.840 --> 0:01:11.479
<v Speaker 1>There he is speaking at the FII the Future Investment

0:01:11.480 --> 0:01:15.040
<v Speaker 1>Initiative in twenty eighteen. He said that the new Europe

0:01:15.040 --> 0:01:17.720
<v Speaker 1>will be the Middle East and the next global renaissance

0:01:17.760 --> 0:01:20.959
<v Speaker 1>for the next thirty years will be in that region.

0:01:21.040 --> 0:01:22.919
<v Speaker 1>But of course the events of the last few weeks

0:01:23.319 --> 0:01:27.720
<v Speaker 1>have reminded the world of the instability in that part

0:01:27.760 --> 0:01:30.440
<v Speaker 1>of the world and the way that instability can spill

0:01:30.480 --> 0:01:34.360
<v Speaker 1>out both for economies and politics all around the globe.

0:01:34.560 --> 0:01:38.360
<v Speaker 2>Yep. And it's complicating the man we have all nicknamed MBS.

0:01:39.160 --> 0:01:42.440
<v Speaker 2>It's complicating his efforts to focus the region on economic

0:01:42.520 --> 0:01:46.360
<v Speaker 2>development rather than old feuds.

0:01:47.000 --> 0:01:49.760
<v Speaker 1>Welcome to in the City, Bloomberg's podcast, connecting you to

0:01:49.800 --> 0:01:53.000
<v Speaker 1>the conversations and the story is shaping the world of finance.

0:01:53.520 --> 0:01:56.120
<v Speaker 1>I'm David Merritt in London with a Llegra Stratton and

0:01:56.160 --> 0:01:58.800
<v Speaker 1>on the ground in Read is our co host Francine

0:01:58.840 --> 0:02:04.360
<v Speaker 1>Laqua and Read Buwera chief Matthew Martin. This week we

0:02:04.520 --> 0:02:07.200
<v Speaker 1>examine how the Sadi Prince's vision for a new Middle

0:02:07.240 --> 0:02:11.280
<v Speaker 1>East could be overshadowed by the escalating conflict between Israel

0:02:11.840 --> 0:02:15.520
<v Speaker 1>and Hamas. Here's some of the conversation they've been having.

0:02:15.560 --> 0:02:18.440
<v Speaker 1>Sitting right in the middle of the conference in Riad.

0:02:19.440 --> 0:02:22.639
<v Speaker 4>He wrote a very nice piece actually explaining why it's

0:02:22.720 --> 0:02:25.720
<v Speaker 4>very complicated. First of all, to make sure that this

0:02:25.840 --> 0:02:28.560
<v Speaker 4>is a success for the Crown Prince, but especially whilst

0:02:28.600 --> 0:02:31.560
<v Speaker 4>free came to this events, but also the fact that

0:02:31.600 --> 0:02:34.639
<v Speaker 4>things are not normalizing with other countries in the region

0:02:34.720 --> 0:02:37.680
<v Speaker 4>just complicated the efforts of NBS.

0:02:38.000 --> 0:02:38.720
<v Speaker 5>Yeah exactly.

0:02:38.760 --> 0:02:40.800
<v Speaker 6>I mean, I think you know what we've seen over

0:02:40.880 --> 0:02:43.040
<v Speaker 6>this is this is the seventh year that had this

0:02:43.160 --> 0:02:46.239
<v Speaker 6>investment fallen here and over the course of that time,

0:02:46.480 --> 0:02:48.200
<v Speaker 6>one of the big things that NBS.

0:02:47.840 --> 0:02:49.639
<v Speaker 5>Has tried to do is he's tried to lower the

0:02:49.639 --> 0:02:50.600
<v Speaker 5>temperature in the region.

0:02:50.639 --> 0:02:53.800
<v Speaker 6>He's I mean, he started disputes with Katar, which he

0:02:53.840 --> 0:02:55.920
<v Speaker 6>then quickly tried to resolve because he saw that this

0:02:56.080 --> 0:02:58.960
<v Speaker 6>wasn't going the way that he wanted to. He's resolved

0:02:59.000 --> 0:03:02.440
<v Speaker 6>the tensions with Iran as well. There was the invasion

0:03:02.480 --> 0:03:04.880
<v Speaker 6>of Yemen, which he started and quickly realized wasn't going

0:03:04.960 --> 0:03:08.760
<v Speaker 6>very well. He's trying to resolve that situation, and it's

0:03:08.800 --> 0:03:11.240
<v Speaker 6>all part of this strategy of lower the temperature and

0:03:11.280 --> 0:03:14.320
<v Speaker 6>get the focus to be on his primary goal, which

0:03:14.360 --> 0:03:18.040
<v Speaker 6>is economic growth and economic diversification, with a view that

0:03:18.080 --> 0:03:21.919
<v Speaker 6>the more prosperous Saudi Arabia and the region becomes, then

0:03:21.960 --> 0:03:25.680
<v Speaker 6>these political feuds will melt into the distance. I mean,

0:03:25.680 --> 0:03:27.880
<v Speaker 6>I think really what we've seen over the last couple

0:03:27.880 --> 0:03:31.760
<v Speaker 6>of weeks with the renewed fighting in Israel or the

0:03:31.760 --> 0:03:36.360
<v Speaker 6>war with Hamas is that this dream of putting prosperity

0:03:36.400 --> 0:03:40.080
<v Speaker 6>ahead of political rights is a very difficult one to achieve,

0:03:40.160 --> 0:03:43.840
<v Speaker 6>and there's still some deep fissures in the region, which

0:03:43.840 --> 0:03:47.240
<v Speaker 6>means that trying to focus on prosperity ahead of people

0:03:47.240 --> 0:03:50.040
<v Speaker 6>who have legitimate claims for political rights are going to

0:03:50.040 --> 0:03:52.360
<v Speaker 6>be very very difficult challenge to try.

0:03:52.200 --> 0:03:52.600
<v Speaker 5>And get to.

0:03:52.960 --> 0:03:54.440
<v Speaker 3>So I think, talk to me a little bit about

0:03:54.440 --> 0:03:55.160
<v Speaker 3>this conference.

0:03:55.320 --> 0:03:58.920
<v Speaker 4>I don't know whether it's really symplomatic of how stability

0:03:58.960 --> 0:04:01.680
<v Speaker 4>in the region go. So if there's not much stability,

0:04:01.720 --> 0:04:03.680
<v Speaker 4>actually the big players don't come.

0:04:04.200 --> 0:04:07.520
<v Speaker 3>If it feels like the region is dynamic and actually

0:04:07.600 --> 0:04:09.080
<v Speaker 3>has quite a lot of money to spend.

0:04:08.880 --> 0:04:10.960
<v Speaker 5>And they all show up, yeah exactly.

0:04:11.040 --> 0:04:13.360
<v Speaker 6>I mean I think if I cast my mind back,

0:04:13.440 --> 0:04:15.320
<v Speaker 6>I think you were here as well in twenty seventeen

0:04:15.400 --> 0:04:17.640
<v Speaker 6>for the first one of these. You know, the crown

0:04:17.680 --> 0:04:20.719
<v Speaker 6>prints wandered around the corridors. Afterwards, there was everybody gathering

0:04:20.760 --> 0:04:22.520
<v Speaker 6>around him taking photos of him. He was sort of

0:04:22.520 --> 0:04:24.960
<v Speaker 6>greeted like this rock star almost you know, he had

0:04:24.960 --> 0:04:26.440
<v Speaker 6>this very reformist reputation.

0:04:26.560 --> 0:04:29.200
<v Speaker 5>He was taking the country and the region on and

0:04:29.240 --> 0:04:30.960
<v Speaker 5>moving it forward. Since then, of.

0:04:30.920 --> 0:04:35.720
<v Speaker 6>Course, we've had the murder Jamalcasoji, when the Satuydia was

0:04:35.760 --> 0:04:36.960
<v Speaker 6>abandoned by all the.

0:04:37.040 --> 0:04:39.200
<v Speaker 5>CEOs of the big Western finance companies.

0:04:40.040 --> 0:04:43.920
<v Speaker 6>We've had the relations with the US hitting a particularly

0:04:43.960 --> 0:04:46.839
<v Speaker 6>low EBB under the Biden administration. I think, you know,

0:04:46.960 --> 0:04:49.960
<v Speaker 6>now we're probably sort of back towards that sort of

0:04:50.000 --> 0:04:51.960
<v Speaker 6>move that we had in twenty seventeen.

0:04:52.320 --> 0:04:56.599
<v Speaker 5>The Saudi after after last year's high all prices, the

0:04:56.640 --> 0:04:58.479
<v Speaker 5>saluar Adia's flushed with petro dollars.

0:04:58.520 --> 0:05:00.240
<v Speaker 6>It's got a lot of money to spend a lot

0:05:00.240 --> 0:05:02.400
<v Speaker 6>of things they wants to spend it on, both internationally

0:05:02.480 --> 0:05:05.839
<v Speaker 6>and domestically. So I think, you know, the mood here

0:05:05.920 --> 0:05:09.159
<v Speaker 6>is very, very positive, and as much as there is

0:05:09.279 --> 0:05:11.400
<v Speaker 6>a lot of security concerns around the region, I think

0:05:11.440 --> 0:05:13.200
<v Speaker 6>one of the things you hear from talking to people

0:05:13.240 --> 0:05:15.160
<v Speaker 6>here that some of the people who are flying in

0:05:15.279 --> 0:05:18.200
<v Speaker 6>is they're saying, you know, in read we feel safe

0:05:18.240 --> 0:05:20.040
<v Speaker 6>on the streets than we do in New York or London.

0:05:20.880 --> 0:05:23.960
<v Speaker 6>It's just the broader region where it has got these

0:05:24.520 --> 0:05:26.359
<v Speaker 6>geopolitical fishes.

0:05:25.960 --> 0:05:27.880
<v Speaker 5>Which are not being resolved.

0:05:28.279 --> 0:05:31.080
<v Speaker 4>The wall Streec Titans did show a There's Jake Fraser

0:05:31.240 --> 0:05:35.839
<v Speaker 4>City Group, Jenny Johnson of Templeton, There's the Solomon of

0:05:35.839 --> 0:05:39.400
<v Speaker 4>Golden six, s Rubinstein, Jennie Diamond, those goes on.

0:05:39.480 --> 0:05:42.160
<v Speaker 3>Larry think of black Rock. What are they here? Are

0:05:42.200 --> 0:05:44.840
<v Speaker 3>they here to ask for funding or are they here

0:05:44.880 --> 0:05:46.160
<v Speaker 3>to actually invest in the country.

0:05:46.880 --> 0:05:50.320
<v Speaker 6>I think that's the big tension that you get here

0:05:50.360 --> 0:05:52.960
<v Speaker 6>and over. I think in the beginning it was very

0:05:53.040 --> 0:05:56.760
<v Speaker 6>much Saudi Arabia and the sovereign wealth f on the

0:05:56.800 --> 0:06:00.520
<v Speaker 6>PIF calling friends and family and saying, you know, you've

0:06:00.560 --> 0:06:02.840
<v Speaker 6>got billions of dollars of our money which you manage abroad.

0:06:02.920 --> 0:06:05.239
<v Speaker 6>We want you to come and turn up our investment conference.

0:06:05.760 --> 0:06:08.599
<v Speaker 6>It also has started to attract in all of these

0:06:08.640 --> 0:06:14.039
<v Speaker 6>other foreign startups, you know, the venture capitalists.

0:06:14.279 --> 0:06:15.920
<v Speaker 5>There is a lot of people are here.

0:06:15.800 --> 0:06:17.679
<v Speaker 6>Because they want to suck money out of the country

0:06:17.880 --> 0:06:19.760
<v Speaker 6>and that is their goal. The salaries are having a

0:06:19.800 --> 0:06:22.719
<v Speaker 6>tough time turning that around because they want this that

0:06:22.720 --> 0:06:24.640
<v Speaker 6>they want this promise to do two things. First of all,

0:06:24.640 --> 0:06:26.360
<v Speaker 6>they wanted to put them on a global map and

0:06:26.360 --> 0:06:28.080
<v Speaker 6>for people to talk about them in the same sort

0:06:28.080 --> 0:06:30.560
<v Speaker 6>of way they talk about events in Davos or milk

0:06:30.600 --> 0:06:32.640
<v Speaker 6>In and those sorts of things, but also they want

0:06:32.640 --> 0:06:34.280
<v Speaker 6>to get people to come here and see what's going

0:06:34.360 --> 0:06:37.119
<v Speaker 6>on and put money into the country and put money

0:06:37.120 --> 0:06:39.240
<v Speaker 6>into this diversification agenda.

0:06:39.320 --> 0:06:41.520
<v Speaker 5>And so far that's been the real struggle.

0:06:41.560 --> 0:06:43.440
<v Speaker 6>It's been there's been a lot of money that's gone

0:06:43.440 --> 0:06:45.120
<v Speaker 6>out that haven't been a huge amount of money that's

0:06:45.160 --> 0:06:46.400
<v Speaker 6>come into the country so far.

0:06:47.480 --> 0:06:48.400
<v Speaker 3>It was pretty incredible.

0:06:48.440 --> 0:06:52.200
<v Speaker 4>Actually, on Monday, the day before the FII started, there

0:06:52.200 --> 0:06:54.000
<v Speaker 4>were like three conferences going on the same time.

0:06:54.040 --> 0:06:56.159
<v Speaker 3>It was pretty confusing, and they were focused on gaming.

0:06:56.680 --> 0:07:00.000
<v Speaker 4>They were focusing on football, on sports.

0:07:00.279 --> 0:07:02.080
<v Speaker 3>If there's two things that they want to.

0:07:02.040 --> 0:07:05.040
<v Speaker 4>Make, you know, a priority of what is it tourism

0:07:05.040 --> 0:07:05.840
<v Speaker 4>in the Kingdom or.

0:07:05.800 --> 0:07:06.640
<v Speaker 3>Is it sports?

0:07:08.000 --> 0:07:09.720
<v Speaker 6>I mean, I think there's dozens of things. I mean,

0:07:09.880 --> 0:07:12.120
<v Speaker 6>it's too difficult to narrow it down. I think the

0:07:12.160 --> 0:07:14.680
<v Speaker 6>thing which will the piece which is sort of going

0:07:14.720 --> 0:07:16.280
<v Speaker 6>to move the needle, I think is going to be

0:07:17.200 --> 0:07:20.920
<v Speaker 6>tourism because the Kingdom has gone from you know, just

0:07:20.960 --> 0:07:23.080
<v Speaker 6>a few years ago it is almost impossible to get

0:07:23.080 --> 0:07:27.000
<v Speaker 6>to as a foreign leisure traveler. Now they're open up

0:07:27.280 --> 0:07:29.880
<v Speaker 6>with each passing month, it's getting easier and easier for

0:07:29.880 --> 0:07:31.080
<v Speaker 6>foreign visitors to come here.

0:07:31.200 --> 0:07:33.120
<v Speaker 5>That's set these huge targets.

0:07:32.680 --> 0:07:35.360
<v Speaker 6>Of getting I think other a number I remember is

0:07:35.360 --> 0:07:39.400
<v Speaker 6>seventy million foreign visitors by twenty thirty. So that's going

0:07:39.440 --> 0:07:40.920
<v Speaker 6>to put it right at the top leagues and some

0:07:40.960 --> 0:07:43.160
<v Speaker 6>of the most visited countries in the world.

0:07:43.760 --> 0:07:45.240
<v Speaker 5>So there's a long way to go for that.

0:07:45.280 --> 0:07:47.680
<v Speaker 6>If you achieve that, that brings lots and lots of

0:07:48.280 --> 0:07:51.480
<v Speaker 6>foreign capital into the country, it creates lots and lots

0:07:51.480 --> 0:07:52.840
<v Speaker 6>of jobs in the service industry.

0:07:53.000 --> 0:07:54.440
<v Speaker 5>So that's a big one that they want to do.

0:07:54.920 --> 0:07:56.640
<v Speaker 6>There's also, you know, I suppose a couple of other

0:07:56.720 --> 0:07:58.440
<v Speaker 6>really strategic things they want to do. Is they want

0:07:58.480 --> 0:08:02.680
<v Speaker 6>to shift this perception of them as being an oil exporter,

0:08:03.080 --> 0:08:04.920
<v Speaker 6>and they want to say that no, we're not an

0:08:04.960 --> 0:08:05.600
<v Speaker 6>oil exporter.

0:08:05.680 --> 0:08:06.800
<v Speaker 5>We're an energy exporter.

0:08:07.120 --> 0:08:09.720
<v Speaker 6>We're gonna make hydrogen here, we're gonna ship it abroad.

0:08:10.000 --> 0:08:13.360
<v Speaker 6>We're gonna build solo projects, we're gonna build wind farms,

0:08:13.360 --> 0:08:15.840
<v Speaker 6>we're gonna build hydrogen projects, and we're gonna link up

0:08:15.840 --> 0:08:18.280
<v Speaker 6>the grids all around the region and into Europe through

0:08:18.320 --> 0:08:22.480
<v Speaker 6>this this vast infrastructure scheme that Biden and the Saudis

0:08:22.480 --> 0:08:26.200
<v Speaker 6>on a UE announced between India, the Middle East and Europe.

0:08:26.240 --> 0:08:28.880
<v Speaker 6>So connecting all of these places together, for all of

0:08:28.880 --> 0:08:30.600
<v Speaker 6>the energy that people made in Zaudi Arabia to be

0:08:30.760 --> 0:08:31.960
<v Speaker 6>exported all around them.

0:08:32.240 --> 0:08:33.160
<v Speaker 5>That that's the dream.

0:08:33.240 --> 0:08:36.880
<v Speaker 6>But getting there is it's not a very easy thing

0:08:36.920 --> 0:08:38.880
<v Speaker 6>to get to, and there's a long long way to

0:08:38.920 --> 0:08:39.600
<v Speaker 6>go as yet.

0:08:39.880 --> 0:08:40.480
<v Speaker 3>I think I'm.

0:08:40.320 --> 0:08:43.040
<v Speaker 4>Surprised that actually, even if you're in the corridors of

0:08:43.080 --> 0:08:46.360
<v Speaker 4>the FII, there's no real talk about the conflict and

0:08:46.640 --> 0:08:50.040
<v Speaker 4>the war between Israel and Hamas. Is that because people

0:08:50.080 --> 0:08:53.040
<v Speaker 4>are uneasy talking about it or they just don't know

0:08:53.200 --> 0:08:54.359
<v Speaker 4>what happens next.

0:08:54.880 --> 0:08:57.959
<v Speaker 6>There is elements of both of those, but certainly the

0:08:58.559 --> 0:09:01.079
<v Speaker 6>sort of particularly the US and the Western contingent, where

0:09:01.120 --> 0:09:04.200
<v Speaker 6>there's probably a bit more sympathy for the Israeli point

0:09:04.240 --> 0:09:08.199
<v Speaker 6>of view and the Israeli position, so they are I

0:09:08.200 --> 0:09:09.920
<v Speaker 6>think you can see this from some of the debates

0:09:09.960 --> 0:09:12.440
<v Speaker 6>on stage when they ask direct questions about it. I

0:09:12.440 --> 0:09:14.840
<v Speaker 6>think they don't quite know how to address it. And

0:09:14.880 --> 0:09:18.160
<v Speaker 6>I'm sure we've seen that in the corporate earnings calls

0:09:18.200 --> 0:09:20.120
<v Speaker 6>I announcements that have come out. Is that nobody quite

0:09:20.240 --> 0:09:22.720
<v Speaker 6>knows what to say about this situation, and so they've

0:09:22.760 --> 0:09:26.080
<v Speaker 6>tried to tread very very delicately around it. But certainly,

0:09:26.120 --> 0:09:28.680
<v Speaker 6>I think on the sideline when you're having more informal

0:09:28.720 --> 0:09:31.839
<v Speaker 6>conversation with the people, I mean, it's clearly the biggest

0:09:31.880 --> 0:09:33.240
<v Speaker 6>being around right now.

0:09:34.000 --> 0:09:36.480
<v Speaker 3>Is normalization after table or is it frozen?

0:09:36.600 --> 0:09:39.600
<v Speaker 4>This was the normalization between for example, you know, the

0:09:39.640 --> 0:09:41.480
<v Speaker 4>relationship between Saliarada and Israel.

0:09:42.040 --> 0:09:44.600
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, well, I think you know, earlier on today we

0:09:44.600 --> 0:09:47.360
<v Speaker 6>had Jamie Diamond say on the stage, you know, he

0:09:47.160 --> 0:09:48.960
<v Speaker 6>he was pleading with the sal he's to keep this

0:09:49.040 --> 0:09:52.200
<v Speaker 6>process going and saying that you know, this needs to

0:09:52.760 --> 0:09:55.080
<v Speaker 6>if Saliu Area needs to push this, because this needs

0:09:55.080 --> 0:09:57.160
<v Speaker 6>to happen for the region. I think at the moment,

0:09:57.679 --> 0:10:00.600
<v Speaker 6>if you look at some of the surveys of the youth,

0:10:00.720 --> 0:10:04.080
<v Speaker 6>ninety eight percent of the population work against normalization. That

0:10:04.200 --> 0:10:06.440
<v Speaker 6>was even before the events of the past couple of weeks.

0:10:06.640 --> 0:10:11.440
<v Speaker 6>So domestically politically, it's quite a tough sell right now.

0:10:11.840 --> 0:10:14.480
<v Speaker 6>But I think there is also a recognition that you

0:10:14.640 --> 0:10:19.760
<v Speaker 6>don't you need to resolve this conflict, and that's not

0:10:19.800 --> 0:10:22.960
<v Speaker 6>going to happen by continuing to ignore each other and

0:10:23.080 --> 0:10:24.840
<v Speaker 6>not establish diplomatic relations.

0:10:25.240 --> 0:10:27.959
<v Speaker 4>Does Sadua Adia actually have a role, but we hear

0:10:28.000 --> 0:10:29.640
<v Speaker 4>that guitars trying.

0:10:29.400 --> 0:10:33.559
<v Speaker 3>To play a media role. What's the role of Sadurrabia.

0:10:32.640 --> 0:10:36.320
<v Speaker 6>Savage is a difficult position because, as we were just saying,

0:10:36.360 --> 0:10:38.600
<v Speaker 6>it doesn't have a diplomatic relationship with Israel, so it

0:10:38.640 --> 0:10:43.240
<v Speaker 6>can't talk, so then it can't apply any diplomatic pressure

0:10:43.240 --> 0:10:43.440
<v Speaker 6>to them.

0:10:43.440 --> 0:10:44.720
<v Speaker 5>It has no relationship there.

0:10:44.880 --> 0:10:47.600
<v Speaker 6>It also it's it's no big fan of Hamas either,

0:10:47.640 --> 0:10:51.000
<v Speaker 6>so it can't talk to them, it can't away on them.

0:10:51.120 --> 0:10:54.760
<v Speaker 6>Whereas Katar Katar hosts Hamas, it has some of the

0:10:54.800 --> 0:10:56.480
<v Speaker 6>leadership and the spokesman there.

0:10:56.360 --> 0:10:59.080
<v Speaker 5>It has that diplomatic relationship that can call on. So

0:10:59.120 --> 0:11:00.520
<v Speaker 5>Saturday's a spot.

0:11:00.559 --> 0:11:02.440
<v Speaker 6>You know. The Soundings are very proud of this role

0:11:02.480 --> 0:11:04.240
<v Speaker 6>they have as the Costolian and the two most holy

0:11:04.280 --> 0:11:07.200
<v Speaker 6>situl within Islam. So it has this sort of diplomatic

0:11:07.240 --> 0:11:11.000
<v Speaker 6>weight within Islam that it can use, but it doesn't

0:11:11.000 --> 0:11:14.080
<v Speaker 6>at the moment have those direct relationships with the main

0:11:14.120 --> 0:11:16.720
<v Speaker 6>protagonists in this fight to be able to affect change.

0:11:16.920 --> 0:11:18.600
<v Speaker 6>So what we're going to see more of, I think

0:11:18.679 --> 0:11:21.440
<v Speaker 6>is the Saudis and some of the other regional powers

0:11:21.480 --> 0:11:26.120
<v Speaker 6>talking to the US about how to take this situation forward,

0:11:26.200 --> 0:11:29.520
<v Speaker 6>how to try and come to some sort of stabilization

0:11:29.720 --> 0:11:32.240
<v Speaker 6>and limit fighting from going completely out of control.

0:11:32.960 --> 0:11:36.040
<v Speaker 4>I think that this conference actually compares to Davos. I know,

0:11:36.320 --> 0:11:39.640
<v Speaker 4>it's called Davis and Deserts. It's come a long way

0:11:39.679 --> 0:11:43.040
<v Speaker 4>in terms of how it looks, how it feels.

0:11:43.280 --> 0:11:44.600
<v Speaker 3>I guess there's still, you.

0:11:44.600 --> 0:11:48.080
<v Speaker 4>Know, many years of experience in Davos in terms of

0:11:48.120 --> 0:11:50.920
<v Speaker 4>bilaterals having rices to meeting that would make a difference.

0:11:50.960 --> 0:11:52.480
<v Speaker 3>But I'm curious into what you think.

0:11:53.280 --> 0:11:55.880
<v Speaker 6>I think I would say, as as a flippant remark

0:11:55.920 --> 0:11:57.920
<v Speaker 6>to begin with that I think Davos is far better

0:11:58.000 --> 0:11:58.840
<v Speaker 6>organized than this is.

0:11:59.240 --> 0:12:01.400
<v Speaker 5>We're seven years in and it still feels like this

0:12:01.840 --> 0:12:03.440
<v Speaker 5>is almost the first time that they've done this.

0:12:04.360 --> 0:12:09.920
<v Speaker 6>But I think, you know, yes, yeah, but I think,

0:12:09.920 --> 0:12:12.719
<v Speaker 6>you know, the convening power that they have managed to

0:12:12.760 --> 0:12:14.800
<v Speaker 6>pull off in a pretty short period of time is

0:12:14.840 --> 0:12:17.600
<v Speaker 6>quite remarkable. They have attracted all of these people here,

0:12:17.840 --> 0:12:20.120
<v Speaker 6>and I think they consider this to be more of

0:12:20.200 --> 0:12:23.040
<v Speaker 6>an investment conference rather than I think Davos has a

0:12:23.080 --> 0:12:25.320
<v Speaker 6>much more of a sort of a geopolitical flavor to it,

0:12:25.679 --> 0:12:28.240
<v Speaker 6>So I think that's where possibly some of the distinction goes.

0:12:29.080 --> 0:12:31.280
<v Speaker 6>But you know, increasingly we're seeing more heads of state

0:12:31.320 --> 0:12:34.320
<v Speaker 6>turning up here, particularly because to allude back to some

0:12:34.360 --> 0:12:37.400
<v Speaker 6>of our earlier conversation, some of the heads of states

0:12:37.440 --> 0:12:39.319
<v Speaker 6>coming here because they also want Sally money as well,

0:12:39.320 --> 0:12:41.320
<v Speaker 6>and they want to see Savu Abia player role. So

0:12:41.600 --> 0:12:44.720
<v Speaker 6>the geopot little conversation here is rising up the agenda

0:12:44.720 --> 0:12:45.160
<v Speaker 6>a little bit.

0:12:45.200 --> 0:12:48.440
<v Speaker 3>I think, Maggie margin thank you so much for doing Yes.

0:12:50.320 --> 0:12:52.560
<v Speaker 5>So logoi was she were there?

0:12:53.880 --> 0:12:57.360
<v Speaker 2>Well, certainly hotter than a typical divorce, But I mean

0:12:57.400 --> 0:13:00.240
<v Speaker 2>it's extraordinary, isn't it to hear them saying that there's

0:13:00.240 --> 0:13:04.560
<v Speaker 2>no real talk about what's happening in Israel and Gaza?

0:13:04.840 --> 0:13:07.280
<v Speaker 2>I think was it Fran that said there's no real

0:13:07.280 --> 0:13:09.360
<v Speaker 2>talk in any of the corridors about the conflict?

0:13:09.520 --> 0:13:13.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and you know, this event, which is trying to

0:13:13.040 --> 0:13:18.240
<v Speaker 1>position Satura Arabia as a regional and global player, no

0:13:18.240 --> 0:13:20.440
<v Speaker 1>one being able to really address the biggest question that

0:13:20.520 --> 0:13:22.080
<v Speaker 1>not only the Regent's facing, but the world is at

0:13:22.080 --> 0:13:24.280
<v Speaker 1>the moment, is how to resolve the conflict that has

0:13:24.400 --> 0:13:25.640
<v Speaker 1>erupted in Israel and Gaza.

0:13:26.200 --> 0:13:29.600
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I mean, at some point though they will. The

0:13:29.679 --> 0:13:33.760
<v Speaker 2>role of the Saudis as very deep pocketed is going

0:13:33.800 --> 0:13:35.839
<v Speaker 2>to come back to the fore not just right now.

0:13:35.880 --> 0:13:38.480
<v Speaker 2>We're in this period where it's about the role that

0:13:38.520 --> 0:13:41.240
<v Speaker 2>the Saudis can play in the diplomacy and trying to

0:13:41.960 --> 0:13:46.200
<v Speaker 2>get time. But eventually it feels a very long way off,

0:13:46.240 --> 0:13:48.440
<v Speaker 2>but eventually they are going to be turned to for

0:13:48.559 --> 0:13:52.160
<v Speaker 2>help with what you do, how you support Gaza and

0:13:52.320 --> 0:13:55.880
<v Speaker 2>reconstruct it. It feels like very far away, but fundamentally

0:13:55.920 --> 0:13:59.120
<v Speaker 2>those conversations that world leaders are having when they're saying

0:13:59.120 --> 0:14:01.560
<v Speaker 2>to the Egyptians, can you please let Palestinians in and

0:14:01.600 --> 0:14:04.640
<v Speaker 2>so on and so forth, and the Egyptians and are

0:14:05.000 --> 0:14:08.160
<v Speaker 2>not wanting to Eventually, soon there's going to have to

0:14:08.160 --> 0:14:10.440
<v Speaker 2>be a question about about what happens to Gaza. It

0:14:10.440 --> 0:14:12.920
<v Speaker 2>doesn't feel like the most urgent question now, but it

0:14:13.040 --> 0:14:15.360
<v Speaker 2>is going to be something that the Saudis is the

0:14:15.440 --> 0:14:18.720
<v Speaker 2>extremely wealthy players in the region, will need to play

0:14:18.720 --> 0:14:19.080
<v Speaker 2>a party.

0:14:19.240 --> 0:14:21.640
<v Speaker 1>Right, and it says deep pockets I suppose that explain

0:14:21.720 --> 0:14:24.800
<v Speaker 1>the convening power that Matthew was talking about. You know

0:14:24.880 --> 0:14:26.520
<v Speaker 1>people that people are showing up right. There was a

0:14:26.600 --> 0:14:30.160
<v Speaker 1>question a week ago like are people actually going to cancel.

0:14:30.280 --> 0:14:34.000
<v Speaker 2>And in the end it was the all hands about

0:14:34.000 --> 0:14:36.000
<v Speaker 2>ten or twelve, wasn't it, And there's still two hundred

0:14:36.040 --> 0:14:38.320
<v Speaker 2>who went well. I thought it was really interesting how

0:14:38.360 --> 0:14:41.320
<v Speaker 2>this kind of this tension between Matthew was talking about

0:14:41.920 --> 0:14:43.840
<v Speaker 2>people want people are going and they want to suck

0:14:43.880 --> 0:14:47.120
<v Speaker 2>money out of the country, but actually the Saudis want

0:14:47.200 --> 0:14:51.840
<v Speaker 2>to bring money radio and I think that is that

0:14:52.040 --> 0:14:54.520
<v Speaker 2>is that is attention. I mean, certainly when you think

0:14:54.520 --> 0:14:57.120
<v Speaker 2>about the United Kingdom, the United Kingdom is very much

0:14:57.120 --> 0:15:01.040
<v Speaker 2>in the market for investment of Saudi Arabian in all

0:15:01.080 --> 0:15:04.440
<v Speaker 2>sorts of industries, including not least green industries. I suspect,

0:15:04.520 --> 0:15:07.440
<v Speaker 2>you know, British carbon capture and storage at some point

0:15:07.560 --> 0:15:10.360
<v Speaker 2>might be of interest to Saudis, sat to the Saudis.

0:15:10.600 --> 0:15:13.760
<v Speaker 2>So it is interesting that tension between people turning up

0:15:13.960 --> 0:15:16.720
<v Speaker 2>to devils in the desert and saying, you know, but

0:15:16.920 --> 0:15:19.840
<v Speaker 2>what's their agenda? Their agenda is probably how much can

0:15:19.840 --> 0:15:22.640
<v Speaker 2>we get them to invest in countries back home, rather

0:15:22.640 --> 0:15:25.120
<v Speaker 2>than necessarily can we support the Saudis to create a

0:15:25.120 --> 0:15:28.840
<v Speaker 2>tourism industry, for instance. And I thought also is interesting

0:15:29.240 --> 0:15:32.200
<v Speaker 2>the Jamie Diamond pleading with the Saudis on the stage

0:15:32.200 --> 0:15:35.320
<v Speaker 2>there to keep going with normalization, and it seemed from

0:15:35.400 --> 0:15:38.480
<v Speaker 2>Matthew that sense that actually, I mean, what I would

0:15:38.520 --> 0:15:41.160
<v Speaker 2>love to know is if it's pause, which it very

0:15:41.240 --> 0:15:43.720
<v Speaker 2>much does seem to be right now, that normalization with

0:15:43.920 --> 0:15:46.920
<v Speaker 2>Israel that the world had been hoping for three weeks

0:15:46.920 --> 0:15:49.800
<v Speaker 2>ago really very very little time ago. If it's paused,

0:15:49.840 --> 0:15:52.160
<v Speaker 2>how long are we talking? Are we talking? Are we

0:15:52.240 --> 0:15:56.320
<v Speaker 2>talking months? Are we talking years? And if it's completely

0:15:56.360 --> 0:15:58.560
<v Speaker 2>off the table, I mean, it's fascinating to hear the

0:15:58.720 --> 0:16:01.920
<v Speaker 2>ninety eight percent of the popular where Saudi population are

0:16:01.960 --> 0:16:02.880
<v Speaker 2>against organization.

0:16:02.920 --> 0:16:04.560
<v Speaker 1>I means some people have suggested that one of the

0:16:04.600 --> 0:16:09.360
<v Speaker 1>aims of her Masses attack was to scupper the chance

0:16:09.400 --> 0:16:13.360
<v Speaker 1>of normalization between Israel and Saudi Arabia, and in that

0:16:13.480 --> 0:16:16.760
<v Speaker 1>sense it's achieved. It's clearly at least for the timing.

0:16:16.760 --> 0:16:19.600
<v Speaker 2>But for the Saudis if they are to create this sense.

0:16:19.640 --> 0:16:21.520
<v Speaker 2>I mean, there was that quote, wasn't there in Read

0:16:21.600 --> 0:16:23.840
<v Speaker 2>People People? I think people said to Matthew in read

0:16:23.880 --> 0:16:26.600
<v Speaker 2>we feel safer than in New York or London, you know,

0:16:26.760 --> 0:16:29.800
<v Speaker 2>you know both cities well, Dave, but not in the

0:16:29.800 --> 0:16:32.320
<v Speaker 2>region more widely. And I think that is the fundamental

0:16:32.400 --> 0:16:35.920
<v Speaker 2>question they will have to answer sometime soon, is you know,

0:16:36.000 --> 0:16:39.160
<v Speaker 2>can you can you create this, this Saudi Arabia which

0:16:39.200 --> 0:16:42.520
<v Speaker 2>is a tourist heaven and place where lots of international

0:16:42.560 --> 0:16:45.920
<v Speaker 2>travelers want to go. There's extraordinary numbers about their ambitions

0:16:45.920 --> 0:16:48.480
<v Speaker 2>for tourism into Saudi Arabia, how many people they want

0:16:48.520 --> 0:16:51.080
<v Speaker 2>to be one of the world's top tourist destinations. But

0:16:51.120 --> 0:16:54.160
<v Speaker 2>it seems is that feasible? Is that feasible? Is that

0:16:54.160 --> 0:16:57.720
<v Speaker 2>feasible when you have not far away such such deep

0:16:57.840 --> 0:17:02.720
<v Speaker 2>and a huge viol is that feasible? Potentially they will

0:17:02.760 --> 0:17:04.920
<v Speaker 2>right now be trying to figure out the extent to

0:17:04.960 --> 0:17:08.119
<v Speaker 2>which the two can co exist. And if the feeling

0:17:08.160 --> 0:17:11.160
<v Speaker 2>is that actually it is denting their ambitions to make it,

0:17:11.440 --> 0:17:15.320
<v Speaker 2>you know, this huge tourism and also life sciences and

0:17:15.400 --> 0:17:19.760
<v Speaker 2>tech of the future economy pivoting away from oil, then

0:17:20.240 --> 0:17:25.680
<v Speaker 2>then they will then have to help to get Palestine

0:17:25.680 --> 0:17:27.760
<v Speaker 2>and the Gazans back on their feet. That's why it

0:17:27.760 --> 0:17:30.000
<v Speaker 2>becomes I think that the whole of it is linked right.

0:17:29.840 --> 0:17:32.600
<v Speaker 1>Because the soaur division of the future is not compatible

0:17:32.680 --> 0:17:35.639
<v Speaker 1>with a region in flames and with an escalating or

0:17:36.320 --> 0:17:45.480
<v Speaker 1>a worsening conflict between Israel and its neighbors. Thanks for

0:17:45.520 --> 0:17:47.480
<v Speaker 1>listening to this week's in the City. We'll be back

0:17:47.800 --> 0:17:49.640
<v Speaker 1>next week, but in the meantime, if you like our show,

0:17:49.680 --> 0:17:51.760
<v Speaker 1>please head on over to wherever you listen to podcasts

0:17:51.880 --> 0:17:54.560
<v Speaker 1>and rate, review and subscribe. It really does help people

0:17:55.080 --> 0:17:58.479
<v Speaker 1>find the show. This episode was hosted by me, David Merritt,

0:17:58.480 --> 0:18:01.919
<v Speaker 1>Francine Laquar, and a Legal Strats. It was produced by Somersadi,

0:18:01.960 --> 0:18:05.520
<v Speaker 1>with additional editing by Blake Maples and special thanks to

0:18:05.520 --> 0:18:09.800
<v Speaker 1>Matthew Martin, Victoria Cochrane, Ga Lamperti, and Sarah Halls.