1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:07,320 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of I Heart Radio. So 2 00:00:07,440 --> 00:00:12,200 Speaker 1: let's let me paint a scene for you. Say it's four, 3 00:00:12,320 --> 00:00:15,640 Speaker 1: I'm fifteen or sixteen years old, and everyone's gone out 4 00:00:15,720 --> 00:00:21,400 Speaker 1: for the night. And there I am, this slender, feminine 5 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 1: creature with shoulder length blonde hair, and I'm standing at 6 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:33,360 Speaker 1: a high window in my parents haunted house, big old, drafty, 7 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:38,160 Speaker 1: creepy house in what was once the country around Philadelphia. 8 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:40,880 Speaker 1: And I'm standing in a window and I'm looking down 9 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:43,880 Speaker 1: and I watched the pale lights of my sister, who's 10 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:46,879 Speaker 1: the last person to leave the house. She drives off 11 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:50,519 Speaker 1: on the Volkswagen. Now I'm alone in this house and 12 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:56,320 Speaker 1: I'm looking at the clock. Let's say it's so now 13 00:00:56,360 --> 00:01:00,240 Speaker 1: I've got a couple of hours. So we sweep down 14 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:02,640 Speaker 1: the creaking steps from the third floor, and I grab 15 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:07,399 Speaker 1: a dress and all the kind of body patting that 16 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:12,480 Speaker 1: I'm going to need, and some pantios and some makeup, 17 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:16,920 Speaker 1: and you put your clothes on quick, and then you 18 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:19,880 Speaker 1: kind of stand before the mirror and you do your 19 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:23,360 Speaker 1: makeup and you look in the mirror and you know, 20 00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:25,920 Speaker 1: I mean I was. I was a very feminine looking person, 21 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:30,480 Speaker 1: even when I wasn't on farm, and you know, for 22 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:35,120 Speaker 1: all the world there's a relatively normal looking and I 23 00:01:35,160 --> 00:01:37,640 Speaker 1: know normal is a charged words, so maybe I should 24 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 1: be careful. But there I am. If i'd left the house, 25 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:43,440 Speaker 1: which I would never have done that I've left no house, 26 00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:46,400 Speaker 1: maybe you wouldn't have looked twice at me, like there's 27 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 1: some hippie girl, you know. And I'm just kind of 28 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:55,000 Speaker 1: looking in the mirror with the sense of both profound 29 00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:58,560 Speaker 1: joy because there's the person that I am. There is 30 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:02,280 Speaker 1: the girl that has lived in my heart but I 31 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:04,480 Speaker 1: never get to see except when no one is home, 32 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:09,280 Speaker 1: but also profound sorrow because I know I can't be 33 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:11,760 Speaker 1: this person, because I know I can't live in the 34 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:20,200 Speaker 1: world as myself. That's Jennifer Finney Boylan, writer, professor, transactivist, 35 00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:25,080 Speaker 1: author most recently of Good Boy, My Life in Seven Dogs, 36 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:29,840 Speaker 1: as well as the classic memoir She's Not There. Jenny's 37 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:33,160 Speaker 1: is a story of the deepest kind of secret, the 38 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 1: kind that we hold in a wordless place, the kind 39 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:38,959 Speaker 1: that will not let go of us, the kind that 40 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:41,880 Speaker 1: will force its way out from its depths until we 41 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:46,200 Speaker 1: release it, and when we release it, it finally releases us. 42 00:02:57,320 --> 00:03:00,800 Speaker 1: I'm Danny Shapiro, And this is family secret. It's the 43 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:03,679 Speaker 1: secrets that are kept from us, the secrets we keep 44 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 1: from others, and the secrets we keep from ourselves. It's 45 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 1: like I've got the nuclear codes here and here it is. 46 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 1: Here's the way. If I wanted to, I could blow 47 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:23,320 Speaker 1: up my life. All I'd have to do with you 48 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:27,040 Speaker 1: to walk outside, and I'm knowing that, you know, my 49 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:30,600 Speaker 1: parents are coming back from their dinner with their friends. 50 00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:33,280 Speaker 1: My sister might come back. Anything could happen. Maybe my 51 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:35,760 Speaker 1: friends are going to stop by without telling me. Are 52 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:38,120 Speaker 1: all the doors in the house locked? They might not be. 53 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:41,160 Speaker 1: And sometimes people would come home and I have to, 54 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 1: you know, do a quick retreat. But on this particular night, 55 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:46,320 Speaker 1: let's just say, when all is said and done, they 56 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:50,000 Speaker 1: put everything back, put the earrings back in the mother's 57 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:52,840 Speaker 1: jewelry box, put the clothes back on the hangars where 58 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:55,280 Speaker 1: they're supposed to come from. Then I hear the car 59 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 1: coming in in the driveway, and my mother comes up 60 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 1: the stairs, and of course I've I've now washed off 61 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:03,160 Speaker 1: the neckup, and I've done everything I have to do 62 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:06,560 Speaker 1: to look like myself again, as if you know, nothing 63 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:08,960 Speaker 1: has happened. And mom comes in, Did you have a 64 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 1: nice night here? Yeah? What did you do? Well? I 65 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:18,360 Speaker 1: watched Carol Burnett show. Okay, we'll see you in the morning, 66 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:23,920 Speaker 1: and that was my reality. You know that I've had 67 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:29,720 Speaker 1: this just unbelievably powerful, both joyful and tragic experience alone 68 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:34,159 Speaker 1: in the creepy old house, and then everything would have 69 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:37,320 Speaker 1: to get restored, like nothing had happened to hide the 70 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:40,320 Speaker 1: scene of the crime, you know, And I'd wonder, was 71 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:42,520 Speaker 1: this dress facing this way or that way on the hangar? 72 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 1: Will anyone know that I moved these ear rings? Describe 73 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:54,200 Speaker 1: the landscape of your childhood, Well, I grew up in 74 00:04:54,440 --> 00:05:00,240 Speaker 1: rural Pennsylvania and it was a place where a engle 75 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:04,080 Speaker 1: road had been carved through a pretty deep pine forest, 76 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:06,719 Speaker 1: and our family lived on one side of the road 77 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:08,840 Speaker 1: and on the other side of the road. We're just 78 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:13,280 Speaker 1: lots and lots of trees that went on forever and 79 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:17,200 Speaker 1: through that forest. It sounds very like I don't know, 80 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:20,240 Speaker 1: Middle Earth or something, but through that forest there was 81 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:23,800 Speaker 1: an old I guess a cobblestone road from a hundred 82 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:27,479 Speaker 1: years before, and a lot of old stone houses that 83 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:30,880 Speaker 1: had been abandoned, and on some levels it was like 84 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:33,080 Speaker 1: the coolest thing if you were a kid, to be 85 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:34,919 Speaker 1: able to just you know, get up in the morning 86 00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:38,040 Speaker 1: and disappear into those woods. And sometimes I have the 87 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:42,240 Speaker 1: dog with me. We had a Dalmatian named Playboy, who 88 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:44,680 Speaker 1: was like the worst dog in the world, but you know, 89 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:48,880 Speaker 1: not to me, and so I would disappear into those woods. 90 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 1: In some ways, it was very much kind of a 91 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 1: world of imagination. I was left on my own a 92 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:57,440 Speaker 1: lot as a kid, and there's a way it's funny. 93 00:05:57,440 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 1: It's the one way in which I look back on anything. Wow, 94 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:02,200 Speaker 1: what a kind of a sad childhood, you know, it 95 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 1: just kind of because I spent most of my time 96 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:07,960 Speaker 1: kind of alone, wandering around this forest. But on the 97 00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:10,320 Speaker 1: other hand, being alone is just how I liked it. 98 00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:13,159 Speaker 1: It's the place I actually wanted to be. And if 99 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 1: my parents or my sister had actually asked me to 100 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 1: take part in their world, which was a really different 101 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:21,719 Speaker 1: different from mine, it would have been have been nice 102 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:23,800 Speaker 1: to have been asked, but then I probably would have 103 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:28,520 Speaker 1: given him the slip. Anyway, Were you and your sister 104 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:32,360 Speaker 1: close in age, Um, she's about a year and a 105 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:34,800 Speaker 1: couple of months older than I am, So yeah, we're 106 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 1: pretty close n Eche, but very different temperament. You know. 107 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:41,600 Speaker 1: So I was a boy then and and she was not. 108 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:46,039 Speaker 1: She was a great equestion, She wrote courses. She was 109 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 1: just brilliant at you know, as a kid. She became 110 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:50,440 Speaker 1: one of the best writers in all of Pennsylvania. And 111 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:52,640 Speaker 1: it was you know, it's kind of like the stories 112 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 1: you hear of people who have a sibling who is 113 00:06:56,160 --> 00:07:00,599 Speaker 1: like a gymnast or an ice skater or I don't know, something, 114 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:04,120 Speaker 1: I was some kind of obscure athletic talent, you know. 115 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:07,120 Speaker 1: She like she was what's the thing with the brooms 116 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 1: in the Olympics curling that that you throw of this 117 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:14,320 Speaker 1: little tattle and then people like go ice skating in 118 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:16,320 Speaker 1: front of it and they're like sweeping the ice. Well, 119 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:18,600 Speaker 1: it was like that. It was like being the sibling 120 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 1: of a world class curler, and uh, their lives revolved 121 00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:26,840 Speaker 1: around that. From the time I was you know, nine 122 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 1: or so, the family would often disappear on the weekends 123 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:34,160 Speaker 1: to go to you know, horse shows wherever. My sister 124 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:39,640 Speaker 1: would right around in a ring from and um, meanwhile 125 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:42,560 Speaker 1: I was out in the woods, living in another world. 126 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:47,080 Speaker 1: My mother was an immigrant to this country. She um 127 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 1: was born in East Prussia, which is a country they 128 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 1: don't have anymore. She came to this country in the 129 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:58,120 Speaker 1: twenties and her English was not very good. She spoke 130 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:01,760 Speaker 1: German then, and she to the story of coming back 131 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:06,040 Speaker 1: from church and h she didn't understand. Why did American 132 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:09,880 Speaker 1: pastors say that your head was going to run over? 133 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:13,000 Speaker 1: What is her head running over? And it's like what 134 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 1: he said, Yeah, he said, my cup runneth over. Well, 135 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:20,440 Speaker 1: for those of you who don't speak German, whause most 136 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:23,880 Speaker 1: people copped as the German word for head. So when 137 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:27,080 Speaker 1: she heard mine cup was running over, she was very confused. 138 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:32,800 Speaker 1: She was the second oldest of seven children. My grandmother, 139 00:08:32,920 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 1: her mother was essentially a single mother. My grandfather would 140 00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:39,120 Speaker 1: show up every year or so, get her pregnant, and 141 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:41,920 Speaker 1: then disappear again. And they lived at this kind of 142 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:45,200 Speaker 1: unbelievably hard life on what they called a dirt farm 143 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 1: in New Jersey. And yeah, my mother had this unbelievable 144 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:52,240 Speaker 1: safe and optimism and buoyancy. And it's always kind of 145 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:55,320 Speaker 1: amazed that sometimes we think of people who are kind 146 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:58,720 Speaker 1: of cheerful and buoyant as people who are superficial and 147 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 1: people who have to them, and yet my mother had 148 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:06,360 Speaker 1: being experienced about the most shocking poverty and the and 149 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 1: the most shocking abuse from her um father and other 150 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:13,600 Speaker 1: men in that farm town, responded to all of that 151 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:18,200 Speaker 1: with this kind of steely buoyancy. And when we were 152 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:22,840 Speaker 1: sarcastic teenagers years and years later, decades later, the worst 153 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:26,640 Speaker 1: thing that anybody could call my mother was Glinda the 154 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:30,480 Speaker 1: good witch. That was that was their sarcastic name from 155 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:32,320 Speaker 1: my mother, because she very much had that thing, that 156 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:36,640 Speaker 1: Billy Burke thing. She was the good witch. My father 157 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:43,200 Speaker 1: was irish. His father died young also, and his mother remarried, 158 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:45,800 Speaker 1: each time a whole bunch of times, each time more 159 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 1: disastrously than the one before, And eventually, by the time 160 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:51,839 Speaker 1: he was nigh school, he was living with friends back 161 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:55,120 Speaker 1: So both of my parents grew up essentially with a 162 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:59,960 Speaker 1: single parent and raised by friends and or by themselves. 163 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:03,040 Speaker 1: And my mother had said she would never get married. 164 00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:07,440 Speaker 1: She just thought there's too much evil from men. And 165 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:10,880 Speaker 1: then she met my father. She was I think almost forty, 166 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:13,400 Speaker 1: she'd become a book buyer. She finally got out of 167 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:16,400 Speaker 1: New Jersey and invented a life for herself what was 168 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:19,760 Speaker 1: then called a book buyer back when books were sold 169 00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:22,200 Speaker 1: on the first floor of department stores. She was the 170 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:25,679 Speaker 1: person who chose what books were for sale. And so 171 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:29,160 Speaker 1: she had this kind of glamorous publishing career in her 172 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 1: thirties where she would take the take the train to 173 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:35,360 Speaker 1: New York City and have lunch with Bennett's surf. And 174 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:38,839 Speaker 1: she gave all that up when she was I think 175 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 1: almost forty. My father was almost thirty. But there was 176 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:45,400 Speaker 1: like eleven years apart from them, and so here's this 177 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:50,440 Speaker 1: German woman marrying this Irish intellectual. Even now I still 178 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:53,040 Speaker 1: look at I think, what bizarre marriage. But they just 179 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:56,520 Speaker 1: a journ each other. Their names were Dick and Hilda Guard. 180 00:10:56,679 --> 00:11:00,280 Speaker 1: I think that's probably important dimension. Also, I remember, as kneeds, 181 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:02,960 Speaker 1: You're being a little stone lying on the couch one day, 182 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:08,319 Speaker 1: thinking my parents are named Dick and Hilleguard, like there's 183 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:11,320 Speaker 1: no hope for me. Like my parents are Dick and 184 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:18,120 Speaker 1: hillde Guard, like whoa man. They had my sister and 185 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:22,800 Speaker 1: they had me, and we lived in the country in Pennsylvania. 186 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 1: My father had wanted to be a medieval historian, but 187 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:28,400 Speaker 1: you know, there was no money for him to go 188 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:32,240 Speaker 1: to grad school, so he became a banker, and banking 189 00:11:32,320 --> 00:11:36,320 Speaker 1: never I think quite treated him with the same love 190 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 1: I think that medieval history would have. But he was 191 00:11:38,679 --> 00:11:43,760 Speaker 1: the kind of quiet, quietly, funny, bookish men, and he 192 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:47,120 Speaker 1: loved his wife, he loved his kids, and he loved dogs. 193 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:52,600 Speaker 1: We had one terrible dog after another. So your father 194 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:57,360 Speaker 1: passed away when you were twenties six, I think, yeah. 195 00:11:57,440 --> 00:12:00,480 Speaker 1: He had he had melanoma. He first got it when 196 00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:02,800 Speaker 1: I was in uh, I think ninth grade, and they 197 00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:07,200 Speaker 1: had a mole taken off and he was okay for 198 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:09,640 Speaker 1: six or seven years, and then another mole taken off, 199 00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:12,079 Speaker 1: and then he was okay for three years or four years, 200 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:14,439 Speaker 1: and then uh and then the last time you got it, 201 00:12:14,679 --> 00:12:17,079 Speaker 1: you know, as the saying goes, they didn't get at all. 202 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:21,160 Speaker 1: And so he was in remission I think three times, 203 00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:23,120 Speaker 1: and then when it finally laid him low, he was 204 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:25,319 Speaker 1: he was gone within the year. So yeah, it was 205 00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:28,520 Speaker 1: in my twenties. Do you ever think about what it 206 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:33,280 Speaker 1: would have been like to come out to your father, Um, 207 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:35,600 Speaker 1: I guess I've thought about that. I think it would 208 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:40,240 Speaker 1: have gone badly, so I don't think about it a lot. Um. 209 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:43,880 Speaker 1: He was an open minded man, but He also had 210 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:47,679 Speaker 1: a very strong sense of the consequences of your decisions 211 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:50,280 Speaker 1: and if they affect other people. One of his best 212 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:52,920 Speaker 1: friends from high school who was called my uncle so 213 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:54,679 Speaker 1: and so, you know when I was a kid, that's 214 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:56,440 Speaker 1: he was one of those people that you weren't related 215 00:12:56,440 --> 00:12:59,679 Speaker 1: to that you called your uncle. Um divorced his wife 216 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:05,320 Speaker 1: and married someone else midlife, the way people do. And 217 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:07,600 Speaker 1: my father never gave me and never spoke to him again, 218 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:11,080 Speaker 1: like it was dead to him because he had four children. 219 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:13,679 Speaker 1: And my father just felt, you know, you've done you've 220 00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:16,160 Speaker 1: done the wrong term, so he cut him off. I 221 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:20,160 Speaker 1: guess that's a fine line between having between morals and moralistic. 222 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:23,080 Speaker 1: Also in their circle that you know, they just didn't 223 00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:25,560 Speaker 1: know gay people, they didn't know queer people. It's a 224 00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:29,000 Speaker 1: very repressive culture. And um, I mean they had a 225 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:32,240 Speaker 1: two or three friends that were just obviously gay. You'd 226 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:35,160 Speaker 1: have to be completely blind not to know that these 227 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:38,079 Speaker 1: men were gay. And yet nearly to her dying day, 228 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:40,559 Speaker 1: and my mother would never would always say, oh, well, 229 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:43,840 Speaker 1: I hope ed finds the right woman some day. I'm like, um, 230 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:46,320 Speaker 1: but you know, I guess that's just the culture that 231 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:48,320 Speaker 1: they grew up with in the thirties and forties. You know, 232 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:51,000 Speaker 1: my life is not easy, but it was a lot 233 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:53,320 Speaker 1: easier than it would have benified grown up in that era. 234 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 1: I know you've said that when you think about your childhood, 235 00:13:59,679 --> 00:14:02,280 Speaker 1: you do you think of it as a boyhood? Do 236 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:05,440 Speaker 1: you still feel that way or The reason that I 237 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:09,199 Speaker 1: always tiptoe around that is because, um, I'm aware that 238 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:13,800 Speaker 1: for other transgender women, they have a narrative which I 239 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:17,400 Speaker 1: respect and which is real, and the fact that my 240 00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:20,600 Speaker 1: experience is a little different doesn't mean that there's should 241 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:22,560 Speaker 1: not be respected. You know, there are a lot of 242 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:25,120 Speaker 1: transgender women who would say I went through transition when 243 00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:27,600 Speaker 1: I was thirty, but I was always a woman, And 244 00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:30,200 Speaker 1: I mean, and that's true for me also in a 245 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:33,440 Speaker 1: kind of spiritual a in a kind of private way. 246 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:36,040 Speaker 1: But you know, I also I lived in the world 247 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:38,640 Speaker 1: as a boy. I mean, I knew, I knew what 248 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:41,240 Speaker 1: the truth was about who I was from a very 249 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:44,480 Speaker 1: very early age, but I didn't tell anybody because I figured, 250 00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:46,480 Speaker 1: I don't know, like, I didn't have the language for 251 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:48,880 Speaker 1: it. It It just seemed insane, and there were I just 252 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:51,520 Speaker 1: didn't know that there were other transgender people in the world. 253 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:55,080 Speaker 1: So I kept it private and I lived as far 254 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 1: as the rest of the world could see as a boy. 255 00:14:57,320 --> 00:15:00,320 Speaker 1: And I didn't go through transition until I was prety, 256 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:03,440 Speaker 1: you know, So I did live in that body for 257 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:07,960 Speaker 1: all those decades and socialized male. That doesn't make me 258 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 1: less of a woman now post transition, and there's nothing 259 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:16,600 Speaker 1: to apologize for. But I do think of it as 260 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:19,760 Speaker 1: a boyhood, you know, not a boyhood like the other 261 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 1: boys that I knew, that's for sure. But you know, 262 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:25,480 Speaker 1: it was what it was, and it wasn't the life 263 00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:27,600 Speaker 1: that I wanted, and it wasn't a life that I understood, 264 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:29,800 Speaker 1: and it just felt weird, man, I mean it was. 265 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:32,320 Speaker 1: It was a really strange way to be in the 266 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:34,640 Speaker 1: world because not only do you have the sense of 267 00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:37,240 Speaker 1: yourself of being different and having a problem that you 268 00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:39,960 Speaker 1: can't solve, but you also have a pretty big secret. 269 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:42,960 Speaker 1: You have a an atomic secret that you don't have 270 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:46,200 Speaker 1: a language for. You don't know how to to share 271 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:49,160 Speaker 1: your what's in your heart, your most fundamental truth with 272 00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:52,720 Speaker 1: the people who love you, and it's a pretty hard 273 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:56,640 Speaker 1: thing for an eight year old to carry around on 274 00:15:56,720 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 1: their shoulders. So my way of dealing with it was 275 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:05,920 Speaker 1: just to become this tremendously hysterical person. You know, I 276 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:09,240 Speaker 1: was disruptive in school. I was it was pretty funny 277 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:12,040 Speaker 1: at times. Some of my material was pretty good. But 278 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:15,880 Speaker 1: I also I was just kind of driven to constantly 279 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:19,560 Speaker 1: be creating, you know, b Arnie hand over foot. You know, 280 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:22,040 Speaker 1: I would make up songs, and I make up stories, 281 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:24,440 Speaker 1: and I would go charging off into the woods and 282 00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:28,200 Speaker 1: invent you know, a whole other other worlds that felt 283 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:32,440 Speaker 1: like a safer and more forgiving place to be than 284 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:38,960 Speaker 1: the world I lived in. We'll be back in a 285 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:50,160 Speaker 1: moment with more family secrets. It's so interesting, Jenny, because 286 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:53,920 Speaker 1: you're talking about in not having the language for something 287 00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:59,440 Speaker 1: that is so huge, but literally does not having the words, 288 00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:04,680 Speaker 1: not having ing the terms, not having access to being 289 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:09,359 Speaker 1: able to describe it, not just two other people, but 290 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:13,240 Speaker 1: to yourself. It strikes me listening to you that that's 291 00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:16,520 Speaker 1: also the birth of a writer in a certain way, 292 00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:18,680 Speaker 1: because at least the way that I always think about 293 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:23,000 Speaker 1: the impulse to write is finding the words, finding the language, 294 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:28,000 Speaker 1: or intervening in the dynamics of loss or or childhood 295 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:33,320 Speaker 1: where there wasn't the ability back then too to speak, Yeah, 296 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:36,239 Speaker 1: and to and to find a narrative of your own 297 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 1: life that makes that makes sense, that can actually change 298 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 1: the payoffs of your the life that you're experiencing into 299 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:50,359 Speaker 1: something that has form and function and logic. It remains 300 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:54,480 Speaker 1: to this day a very difficult thing to explain to 301 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:57,000 Speaker 1: other people who don't feel the thing that you feel, 302 00:17:57,040 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 1: and so because they don't feel the thing that you feel, 303 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:03,560 Speaker 1: they assume that what you feel must be something you 304 00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:05,679 Speaker 1: don't feel, or it must be something that that is. 305 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:08,720 Speaker 1: You're just crazy, you're just wrong. The experience of a 306 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:11,240 Speaker 1: lot of transgender people, you know, it reminds me of that. 307 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:14,800 Speaker 1: There's I think it's a heny youngman joke where guy 308 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 1: isn't it the doctor and he says, doctor, doctor, I've 309 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:19,280 Speaker 1: I get a terrible paint every time I go like this, 310 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 1: what should I do? And the doctor says, don't go 311 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:26,840 Speaker 1: like that. You know, you know, and people will argue 312 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:29,720 Speaker 1: with you. They'll say that, well, your chromosome says you're this, 313 00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:34,600 Speaker 1: so that's that you should I've been tweeting with you 314 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:36,760 Speaker 1: for thirty seconds. But I understand your life, but I 315 00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:39,639 Speaker 1: than you do. I think to some degree, there's also 316 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:44,120 Speaker 1: a desire to to explain things to other people. And 317 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:47,080 Speaker 1: I think in my my first memoir, Um, She's Not There, 318 00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:51,159 Speaker 1: which is an account of transition, there's a tone and 319 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:53,520 Speaker 1: I mean I wrote that book going on twenty years 320 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:56,520 Speaker 1: ago now, but there's a there's a feeling to that 321 00:18:56,560 --> 00:18:59,879 Speaker 1: book now when I read it, I feel a tone 322 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:04,760 Speaker 1: of apology or justification to it, because you know, in 323 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:08,199 Speaker 1: those days, you know, twenty years ago, there was so 324 00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:13,919 Speaker 1: little um discourse around trans identity that you know, I 325 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:17,760 Speaker 1: think people felt like I'd made the whole thing up myself. 326 00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:20,960 Speaker 1: So a lot of that book, a tone of it 327 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:24,160 Speaker 1: from author to reader, is a tone of someone saying, 328 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:29,440 Speaker 1: please forgive me, I'm so sorry, uh for for being 329 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:32,120 Speaker 1: myself and for feeling the things I felt. I hope 330 00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:34,640 Speaker 1: you'll toss this out with me. And it's the thing 331 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:38,520 Speaker 1: looking at it now seems really I don't want to 332 00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:41,440 Speaker 1: say dated, but it's certainly I wouldn't write anything about 333 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:46,280 Speaker 1: translegdentity with that attitude. Now now I've my attitude be 334 00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:49,760 Speaker 1: much more like, well, I'm here on the planet. Isn't 335 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:53,119 Speaker 1: this great busness a gift? How lucky was I to 336 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:57,480 Speaker 1: experience the world and in these different ways? And if 337 00:19:57,520 --> 00:20:00,960 Speaker 1: you can't ride on this train with me. Well, that's okay, 338 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:03,760 Speaker 1: we'll stop the train. We'll throw you off. When a 339 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:07,280 Speaker 1: difference twenty years makes well, I think it's just the 340 00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:11,200 Speaker 1: result of people coming out. It's the result of more 341 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:14,160 Speaker 1: and more people being known. It's the result of their 342 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:17,960 Speaker 1: being more different kinds of transgender people in the public eye. 343 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:21,679 Speaker 1: I mean, it used to be that kind of nice, possible. 344 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:25,520 Speaker 1: Middle aged white ladies were the only transgender people you saw, 345 00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:28,320 Speaker 1: except for drag queens who interacted with the world in 346 00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:30,679 Speaker 1: a very in a very different way. But you know, 347 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:33,320 Speaker 1: now we've got all kinds of trance stories out there. 348 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:37,560 Speaker 1: We have a saying, um, if you've met one transgender person, 349 00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:42,439 Speaker 1: you've met one transgender person. And I'm not ignorant, I 350 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:44,600 Speaker 1: know that this is all still really new for a 351 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:46,439 Speaker 1: lot of people, and a lot of people are still 352 00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:51,200 Speaker 1: catching up, but increasingly and to our children's generation, um, 353 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:53,520 Speaker 1: this is this is just kind of the way things are, 354 00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:56,320 Speaker 1: and it's just not that big a deal. And in 355 00:20:56,359 --> 00:20:58,080 Speaker 1: a way, that's sorrel. I always wanted to live in 356 00:20:58,119 --> 00:21:03,320 Speaker 1: a world where I was born, where it was just 357 00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 1: not that big a deal and I could just be 358 00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:08,400 Speaker 1: myself and no one would have to have a heart 359 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:13,639 Speaker 1: attack about it. I've often thought that the change in 360 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:16,800 Speaker 1: my life was not a change about going from male 361 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:20,400 Speaker 1: the female. The thing that changed me was going from 362 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:22,880 Speaker 1: a person who had a secret to a person who 363 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:26,800 Speaker 1: doesn't have a secret. And if you have a secret, 364 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:32,760 Speaker 1: it is like having a Saint Bernard. It's something like 365 00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:37,919 Speaker 1: an invisible Saint Bernard that that follows you everywhere, like 366 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:41,399 Speaker 1: you can't leave the house unless the secret comes with you, 367 00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 1: and the secret has to be tended, you know. I 368 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:46,320 Speaker 1: remember being in like a social situation when I was 369 00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:50,800 Speaker 1: like sixteen, and somebody mentioning um a transgender person, although 370 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:54,200 Speaker 1: that wasn't the language that was used back in those days, 371 00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:58,119 Speaker 1: but someone would say that word and I would freeze, 372 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:02,600 Speaker 1: and my heart beat a triple and sweat would start 373 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:05,960 Speaker 1: to pour down the signs of my face because I 374 00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:10,120 Speaker 1: knew that I then had to imitate a person for 375 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:15,520 Speaker 1: whom this topic was of no special interest, and sometimes 376 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:18,200 Speaker 1: it was very hard to remember what those people acted like. 377 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:23,320 Speaker 1: But it means you're also not telling the truth of 378 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:27,280 Speaker 1: the person that you love by the person you love. 379 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:30,760 Speaker 1: Jenny's referring to her wife. Did the two of them 380 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:34,640 Speaker 1: have been together? Well for a very long time, and 381 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:37,760 Speaker 1: what a ride it has been. I mean, so I've 382 00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:41,040 Speaker 1: been married now for what thirty two years I think 383 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:43,880 Speaker 1: now um Dee and I have been been together, so 384 00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:47,359 Speaker 1: it's twelve years as husband and wife and twenty years 385 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:51,280 Speaker 1: as a wife and wife. Well, for the twelve years 386 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:54,040 Speaker 1: that I was married before I came out, my wife died. 387 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:58,479 Speaker 1: Whom I love I did not know because how did 388 00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:00,280 Speaker 1: she not know? Because I didn't tell her? Why did 389 00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:02,320 Speaker 1: I not tell her? Because I didn't tell myself because 390 00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 1: I didn't want it to be true, because I figured 391 00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:08,560 Speaker 1: if I said this out loud, it would open the 392 00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:13,680 Speaker 1: door to a life of marginality and suffering and violence 393 00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:17,840 Speaker 1: and possibly murder. I mean, in the stories of transgender 394 00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:20,719 Speaker 1: people that I knew. That's what happened to people. I 395 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:22,840 Speaker 1: didn't know there was a way of being in the world. 396 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:27,919 Speaker 1: So I had to keep the secret from myself. But 397 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:30,159 Speaker 1: it also been keeping the secret from the person that 398 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:34,679 Speaker 1: I love. You know, the whole point of being in 399 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:38,240 Speaker 1: love with someone and embarking upon the adventure of marriage 400 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:41,640 Speaker 1: and sharing a life together. It's pretty hard when you're 401 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:44,880 Speaker 1: trying to keep the secret from that person. But then 402 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:48,040 Speaker 1: you're also trying to keep that secret from yourself. It's crushing. 403 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:51,160 Speaker 1: And there are people, they're millions of people. And it's 404 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:54,879 Speaker 1: not just transgender people either. There are millions of people 405 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:59,200 Speaker 1: in the world who are burying that secret and are 406 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:02,600 Speaker 1: bearing it every single day. We're bearing some secret, something 407 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:07,080 Speaker 1: that if they admit to themselves, will atomize the world 408 00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:09,399 Speaker 1: they live in, or think that it will. And I 409 00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:13,399 Speaker 1: think for men in particular, there's a sense that so 410 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:15,800 Speaker 1: I was I was brought up, is that is your 411 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:18,959 Speaker 1: job to protect the people around you. And you know, 412 00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:22,000 Speaker 1: not not just women, but you know especially women and 413 00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:24,520 Speaker 1: children that you have children, that it's your job to 414 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:28,080 Speaker 1: stand between the people you love and trouble. If there 415 00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:30,520 Speaker 1: are arrows coming in, you want to be in a 416 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:33,879 Speaker 1: position that they're going to hit you and let the 417 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:37,879 Speaker 1: people that you love escape. So to be the person 418 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:42,440 Speaker 1: who's suddenly responsible for trouble, to be the person who's 419 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:45,520 Speaker 1: actually the fact of your life, the secret that you reveal, 420 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:47,920 Speaker 1: be the source of the trouble, it's just a very 421 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:51,399 Speaker 1: very agonizing and terrible thing. And so again for me, 422 00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:53,640 Speaker 1: that was the big thing. It wasn't it wasn't being 423 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:57,679 Speaker 1: trapped so much as it was having something that I 424 00:24:57,680 --> 00:24:59,960 Speaker 1: hadn't been honest about to the person that I care 425 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:03,240 Speaker 1: most about in the world. So what was the turning 426 00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:07,520 Speaker 1: point for you? After twelve years of what you're describing 427 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:14,280 Speaker 1: as a kind of knowing but not fully articulating to 428 00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:19,640 Speaker 1: yourself that this was the case, There was a day 429 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:23,399 Speaker 1: which i'll describe to you. But before that day, I mean, 430 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:26,280 Speaker 1: which was like a turning point. I would describe it 431 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:29,359 Speaker 1: more though as an erosion rather than a decision. It 432 00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:31,919 Speaker 1: wasn't like one day I said, you know, now I 433 00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:35,320 Speaker 1: shall change my name to Tiffany Shaniel and I you know, 434 00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:38,080 Speaker 1: and I walked down the stairs and sequence. It wasn't 435 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:41,280 Speaker 1: like that, although actually I know, I hope people who 436 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:43,560 Speaker 1: have done that too, and that's you know, and that's fine, 437 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:46,199 Speaker 1: But um, you know, you can think about it if 438 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:49,400 Speaker 1: you're walking along the road with a stone in your shoe, 439 00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:51,520 Speaker 1: a little, tiny little stone in your shoe, and you 440 00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:55,240 Speaker 1: could probably walk a mile or so. In fact, here's 441 00:25:55,280 --> 00:26:02,000 Speaker 1: the story. We lived in Ireland in our kids were little, 442 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:04,840 Speaker 1: they were under the age of five or six, and 443 00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:07,040 Speaker 1: I loved living in Cork. I had a job teaching 444 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:10,199 Speaker 1: at University College Cork, and one day, we had some 445 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:14,680 Speaker 1: people over and doorbell rang and somebody turned quickly in 446 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:17,520 Speaker 1: a wine glass fell onto the floor. In fact, maybe 447 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:20,080 Speaker 1: the wine glass had fallen days before. But what remembers 448 00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:22,800 Speaker 1: that that there was a tiny little chart of the glass, 449 00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:25,679 Speaker 1: like you know, the size of like just a tiny 450 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:28,879 Speaker 1: little sliver of a fingernail. Anyway, I must step on 451 00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:31,800 Speaker 1: that as I went to answer the door. So I 452 00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:33,879 Speaker 1: got this little sliver of glass in the heel of 453 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:36,080 Speaker 1: my foot, which is so little that I probably didn't 454 00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:38,840 Speaker 1: even recognize it at the time. And uh, you know, 455 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:40,439 Speaker 1: a couple of days later and they were thinking, oh, 456 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:42,600 Speaker 1: my foot kind of hurts, but you know, I'll just 457 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:45,000 Speaker 1: keep walking, because what are you gonna do, you know. 458 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:47,960 Speaker 1: And then a few days later went by and it 459 00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:49,520 Speaker 1: got worse and worse, no worse. And you know, I 460 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:51,879 Speaker 1: walked all over that city because that's what you wouldn't 461 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:54,800 Speaker 1: know what you do when you live, especially there there 462 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:57,960 Speaker 1: was not a lot of driving cars. I walked everywhere, 463 00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:03,320 Speaker 1: and slowly but surely I realized that I was going 464 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:06,560 Speaker 1: to have to go to the hospital and I had 465 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:08,159 Speaker 1: this thing taken out of a foot well, which I 466 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:10,879 Speaker 1: finally did. And I'll spare you the description of the 467 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:16,959 Speaker 1: hospital in Cork, Ireland, which was surprisingly the opposite of modern. 468 00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:21,160 Speaker 1: It was really gruesome and uh, to get this thing 469 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:23,080 Speaker 1: out of my foot, they had to do an operation 470 00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:25,480 Speaker 1: and there was not good anesthetic and it was really, 471 00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:30,080 Speaker 1: really horrible. And finally my wife picked me up in 472 00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:32,320 Speaker 1: the car the end of the day and we went 473 00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:35,639 Speaker 1: to go get because there were some pain killers, so 474 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:38,399 Speaker 1: she went into the apothecary to get the pain killers. 475 00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:42,760 Speaker 1: When she came out, she found me in the car 476 00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:47,879 Speaker 1: sobbing my brains out, sobbing harder than I think she 477 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:51,480 Speaker 1: maybe had ever seen me cry in a dozen years 478 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:54,199 Speaker 1: of marriage and knowing each other for twenty years before that. 479 00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:58,040 Speaker 1: And it was clear to me what I was crying 480 00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:01,200 Speaker 1: about wasn't the fact that I did I'd hurt my foot. 481 00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:03,080 Speaker 1: What I was crying about is the fact that that 482 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:07,360 Speaker 1: was my life. I've been walking year after year, day 483 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:10,199 Speaker 1: after day with this little thing that I was caring 484 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:15,160 Speaker 1: that I was pretending I didn't hurt, but it did hurt, 485 00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:17,200 Speaker 1: and you, I mean, and finally you just reach to 486 00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:22,800 Speaker 1: day where you're like, I can't walk another step. We 487 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:25,359 Speaker 1: got back from Ireland and I started therapy with the 488 00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:29,560 Speaker 1: following autumn. So you know why, then the real question 489 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:32,880 Speaker 1: is why not years and years and years before. Why 490 00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:34,560 Speaker 1: did it picks along? I don't know. Because I was 491 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:38,760 Speaker 1: a coward, because I was afraid, um, I felt like 492 00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:43,640 Speaker 1: I had too much to lose. You know, it's making 493 00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:48,440 Speaker 1: me think of one of my favorite quotes is from 494 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:54,520 Speaker 1: Gnostic Gospels, from the Gospel of St. Thomas, which goes, um, 495 00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:56,880 Speaker 1: if you bring forth what is within you, what you 496 00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:59,600 Speaker 1: bring forth will save you. If you do not bring 497 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:01,800 Speaker 1: forth what is within you, what you do not bring 498 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:06,640 Speaker 1: forth will destroy you. That's right. I remember that St. Thomas. 499 00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:12,280 Speaker 1: You're good, Danny Shapiro. I mean you make me think 500 00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:17,960 Speaker 1: about the spiritual aspect of all this. I have become 501 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:22,680 Speaker 1: more faithful and spiritual. I think post transition um in 502 00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:25,160 Speaker 1: part because I got to see the power of what 503 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:29,280 Speaker 1: love can do. Because when I did finally tell my 504 00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:33,120 Speaker 1: wife t D it wasn't an easy passage, but in 505 00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:35,640 Speaker 1: the end she decided that she was going to stay 506 00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:39,000 Speaker 1: with me, which I didn't know she would, And my 507 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:43,960 Speaker 1: children continued to love me, and in some ways, the 508 00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:45,920 Speaker 1: thing that surprised me most was when I came out 509 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:49,880 Speaker 1: to my mother, who was when I came out to her. 510 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:54,800 Speaker 1: She was in her early eighties, evangelical, Christian, conservative, Republican 511 00:29:54,840 --> 00:30:00,440 Speaker 1: women in the Philadelphia suburbs, and you know that pretty 512 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:03,440 Speaker 1: good feeling. This is not going to be her idea 513 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:07,760 Speaker 1: of a good way to improve our relationship. But you know, 514 00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:10,600 Speaker 1: I told her, and I said, I'm sorry I didn't 515 00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:12,120 Speaker 1: tell you this when I was six years old, but 516 00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:15,800 Speaker 1: I was afraid you wouldn't love me anymore. And you know, 517 00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:19,560 Speaker 1: around on queue, I started weeping. And then my little 518 00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:22,640 Speaker 1: mother got out of her chair and she sat down 519 00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:24,240 Speaker 1: next to me, and she put her arms around me, 520 00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:26,680 Speaker 1: and she said, I would never turn my back on 521 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:32,840 Speaker 1: my child. She said I'll always love you. And I said, yeah, okay, 522 00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:37,680 Speaker 1: but when everyone finds out that I'm your daughter now, 523 00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:41,440 Speaker 1: isn't that going to be embarrassing and a scandal. And 524 00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:46,760 Speaker 1: she said, well, quite frankly, yes, But she said I 525 00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:51,000 Speaker 1: will adjust. And she wiped the tears off my eyes, 526 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:56,959 Speaker 1: and she said love will prevail, and she quoted First Corinthians, 527 00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:01,640 Speaker 1: these three remain hope, they ape and love, but the 528 00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:07,600 Speaker 1: greatest abuses love. And she died nine years ago at 529 00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:13,360 Speaker 1: the age of but I still carry that around. Love 530 00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:16,880 Speaker 1: will prevail, because in my life love has prevailed, and 531 00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:19,760 Speaker 1: that's part of what I think has turned me towards 532 00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:36,760 Speaker 1: having a faith again. We'll be right back. I've often 533 00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:39,760 Speaker 1: thought of Jenny's life and what happened in the aftermath 534 00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:44,040 Speaker 1: of her transition as really at its core being about 535 00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:48,200 Speaker 1: the triumph of love, the human struggle to become ourselves 536 00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:51,000 Speaker 1: and to trust that the people who love us will 537 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:53,720 Speaker 1: love us down to the core of our authentic being, 538 00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:57,400 Speaker 1: because isn't that what it's all about in the end. 539 00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:05,120 Speaker 1: So now sixty two years old, now i'm generously you 540 00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:10,280 Speaker 1: could call me a middle aged woman. And the person 541 00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:14,040 Speaker 1: that I dreamed of being except older is the person 542 00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:17,520 Speaker 1: that I see in the mirror in the morning. And 543 00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:21,520 Speaker 1: I don't even think about it. I mean I don't 544 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:25,360 Speaker 1: even think about gender most of the time anymore. I 545 00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:27,960 Speaker 1: get up, I have a cup of coffee, I read 546 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:31,080 Speaker 1: the paper, I write my column for the New York Times, 547 00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:34,480 Speaker 1: which is usually not about transgender people. So the thing 548 00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:39,120 Speaker 1: that was once the most profound impossible thing in the 549 00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:42,840 Speaker 1: world is now the thing that is. It's not gone, 550 00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:46,440 Speaker 1: but it is receded. And in some ways I'm living 551 00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:49,080 Speaker 1: the life that I never thought was even remotely possible. 552 00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:52,560 Speaker 1: And part of that is because I was very lucky. 553 00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:56,080 Speaker 1: Part of it was because I was surrounded by people 554 00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:59,880 Speaker 1: who chose when they were given the chance to love me, 555 00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:07,440 Speaker 1: rather than two run away. Three years ago, my older 556 00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:10,440 Speaker 1: child came to me and told me that they too 557 00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:14,200 Speaker 1: were treads and had already embarked upon transition. And I 558 00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:17,000 Speaker 1: think back to when I told my mother, and my 559 00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:20,280 Speaker 1: mother told me that loved will prevail, and she put 560 00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:23,480 Speaker 1: her arms around me. My reaction to my own child 561 00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:30,320 Speaker 1: was in fact, possibly less generous. I was freaked out. 562 00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:34,640 Speaker 1: I thought, did I do this? Did I somehow make 563 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:38,720 Speaker 1: this look like it was fun? And I was oddly 564 00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:41,360 Speaker 1: or maybe maybe not so udly at all. I guess 565 00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:43,560 Speaker 1: my first thought was just that my life has been really, 566 00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:46,280 Speaker 1: really hard, and I don't want I didn't want my 567 00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:48,760 Speaker 1: child's life to be hard and the way that my 568 00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:53,280 Speaker 1: life was hard. But then, I hope not too much 569 00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:58,880 Speaker 1: time later, I understood that it wasn't about me for once, 570 00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:03,200 Speaker 1: and also that the world that my daughter is living 571 00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:08,239 Speaker 1: in is different. And in part can I say this, 572 00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:11,520 Speaker 1: in part because some of the work that I had 573 00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:16,000 Speaker 1: a hand in doing, in part because a lot of 574 00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:19,359 Speaker 1: transgender people over the last twenty years have lived their 575 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:22,920 Speaker 1: lives out and without shame, and have told the stories 576 00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:29,000 Speaker 1: of their lives so that my daughter's generation lives in 577 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:35,279 Speaker 1: the world which is more forgiving and free. And when 578 00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:38,720 Speaker 1: she came out, she didn't spend a year or two 579 00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:42,719 Speaker 1: going around to everybody she knew apologizing and asking for forgiveness. 580 00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:45,839 Speaker 1: She went on Facebook and said, well, I'm trance. This 581 00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:49,320 Speaker 1: is my new name, and most of her friends were like, oh, 582 00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:54,880 Speaker 1: good for you. So that's what happened in twenty years. 583 00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:59,880 Speaker 1: It's astonishing and wonderful. I mean, I my son is 584 00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:05,400 Speaker 1: twenty one, and I see that in his world and 585 00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:09,439 Speaker 1: his friends and for the last six seven years since 586 00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:13,000 Speaker 1: high school, you know, just a kind of very very 587 00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:18,400 Speaker 1: different way of thinking and being in the world, and 588 00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:22,440 Speaker 1: a lack of a need to put people in and 589 00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:27,080 Speaker 1: people's identities and genders and um sexualities and ways of 590 00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:32,120 Speaker 1: identifying themselves into boxes. They just don't do it. Yeah, 591 00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:34,480 Speaker 1: you know what, I wonder, Danny, I wonder if I 592 00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:40,640 Speaker 1: were fourteen now, would I still be hiding myself? Would 593 00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:43,160 Speaker 1: I still you know, head off into the into the 594 00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:46,279 Speaker 1: woods with the dog and kind of play the game 595 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:48,840 Speaker 1: I used to play, which was Girl Planet, which I 596 00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:53,120 Speaker 1: would pretend that I was an astronaut who crashed on 597 00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:57,560 Speaker 1: a alien planet where the atmosphere turned you into a girl. 598 00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:03,000 Speaker 1: Would I spend you know, a Friday night hurriedly putting on, 599 00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:07,880 Speaker 1: you know, my sister's hippie dress, or would I be 600 00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:10,399 Speaker 1: as cool as my children are and their friends are 601 00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:13,600 Speaker 1: and and say, yeah, sure, I'm trance, you know whatever. 602 00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:19,080 Speaker 1: I don't know. It might just be that I'm naturally. 603 00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:21,839 Speaker 1: It seems weird to say a shy person for someone 604 00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:27,080 Speaker 1: who is so constantly in the public eye. But um, 605 00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:30,399 Speaker 1: I think I've always cared a lot about what other 606 00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:33,799 Speaker 1: people think, which I know is stupid. You know, I've 607 00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:39,080 Speaker 1: always sought for approval outside of myself, which is I know, stupid. 608 00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:44,200 Speaker 1: Um And I've always wanted to fit in, which is 609 00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:47,840 Speaker 1: I know stupid. Well, I don't know. I think I 610 00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:49,919 Speaker 1: would be different. But it's funny now to look back 611 00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:53,000 Speaker 1: on all this, because the world is more in some 612 00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:56,239 Speaker 1: places to some degree, a more forgiving place. But you know, 613 00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:59,759 Speaker 1: it happened. I mean, it happened because of the work 614 00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:04,200 Speaker 1: that I was part of, but it also happened, you know, 615 00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:06,719 Speaker 1: I don't want to sound two melancholy, but I think 616 00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:08,560 Speaker 1: a little bit about that scene at the end of 617 00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:10,759 Speaker 1: Lord of the Rings when Frodo was taking his leave 618 00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:12,960 Speaker 1: of his friends and he says, we set out to 619 00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:17,600 Speaker 1: save the shire, and the shire has been saved, but 620 00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:22,560 Speaker 1: not for me. And he says, you know, they're sometimes 621 00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:25,840 Speaker 1: the work you do, it's not work that's going to 622 00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:28,359 Speaker 1: benefit you. It's going to benefit the people who come 623 00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:32,719 Speaker 1: after you. And now I know I'm sounding Lachrymose here, 624 00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:35,480 Speaker 1: but no, Actually it makes me think back to what 625 00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:40,440 Speaker 1: your mother quoted to you from the Corinthians. I'm a 626 00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:43,680 Speaker 1: very lucky person, and I'm grateful for all the gifts 627 00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:47,440 Speaker 1: I've been given, but a lot of the gifts have 628 00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:50,680 Speaker 1: been given about like curses when I was younger. It 629 00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:54,000 Speaker 1: is hard for me sometimes not to look at people 630 00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:58,000 Speaker 1: who didn't get the gift of difference and think it 631 00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:00,560 Speaker 1: would have been easier, wouldn't it to live other life? 632 00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:03,800 Speaker 1: But on the other end, then I would have been boring, 633 00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:10,400 Speaker 1: And it's hard to appreciate things you don't have to 634 00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:16,759 Speaker 1: fight for, including happiness, including love, including the gift of 635 00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:20,439 Speaker 1: your own soul. What's that old gospel song you've got 636 00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:23,800 Speaker 1: to walk that lonesome valley. You've gotta walked up by yourself. 637 00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:25,920 Speaker 1: So I mean that's what we do. We walked that 638 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:28,680 Speaker 1: lonesome valley and and yeah, sure it's between from my 639 00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:30,720 Speaker 1: In my case, it was, it was between the worlds 640 00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:32,960 Speaker 1: of men and women. But it was also the valley 641 00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:36,160 Speaker 1: of having a secret and being unknown and being known. 642 00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:41,280 Speaker 1: It's the valley between having the self that you see 643 00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:47,200 Speaker 1: be an absolutely amazing secret, is known only to you, 644 00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:52,440 Speaker 1: caught a glimpse in the mirror fleetingly for you know, 645 00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:56,240 Speaker 1: a few minutes once every few weeks, and it being 646 00:38:57,280 --> 00:38:59,560 Speaker 1: just the kind of Quotitian fact of your life that 647 00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:01,359 Speaker 1: you don't think about. You get up and you get 648 00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:05,840 Speaker 1: downstairs and you have some coffee. My mother held on 649 00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:08,319 Speaker 1: to that haunted house until her nineties. She died in 650 00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:11,680 Speaker 1: the house. Actually she lived in it for forty years, 651 00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:15,520 Speaker 1: and I remember, long past transition. I had this funny 652 00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:17,960 Speaker 1: experience where I went back the year before she died, 653 00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:19,960 Speaker 1: and then I didn't know she was going to die, 654 00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:22,640 Speaker 1: but she was ninety four at the time. So I 655 00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:25,560 Speaker 1: got a job teaching at a little college. They offered 656 00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:28,960 Speaker 1: me a job to teach their first semester, and I thought, well, okay, 657 00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:31,919 Speaker 1: and so I took my leave. I got permission from 658 00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:35,319 Speaker 1: my wife and my kids to live with Mom for 659 00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:38,800 Speaker 1: the false semester, and the taught school at the little 660 00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:42,319 Speaker 1: college called Arth Sina's College. And I come home and 661 00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:45,520 Speaker 1: I'd make mom lamb chops for dinner, and we drink 662 00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:49,440 Speaker 1: at and then we'd watched Jeopardy, and it was like, 663 00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:53,760 Speaker 1: after all those decades, all of the turmoil was done. 664 00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:56,759 Speaker 1: It was just a mother and her daughter, you know, 665 00:39:56,800 --> 00:40:02,320 Speaker 1: eating lamb chops. And remember one night, there's a ghost 666 00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:04,279 Speaker 1: that you would sometimes see on the third floor of 667 00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:08,120 Speaker 1: that house. There was a mirror and another sounds insane, 668 00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:11,520 Speaker 1: but I wasn't the only one who thought there was 669 00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:16,600 Speaker 1: a mirror. And you'd see this kind of pale figure 670 00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:20,600 Speaker 1: of this kind of older woman in a long white 671 00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:24,200 Speaker 1: like a nighty or something. She always be looking over 672 00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:25,799 Speaker 1: your shoulder and then you turn around there be no 673 00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:30,000 Speaker 1: one there. It was bad when you'd see her. We 674 00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:32,520 Speaker 1: wouldn't happen a lot, you know, once a year, maybe 675 00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:33,960 Speaker 1: once for a couple of years. You can see it. 676 00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:36,840 Speaker 1: A friend of mine once saw her drift through the 677 00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:38,319 Speaker 1: guest treatment in the middle of the night while he 678 00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:41,520 Speaker 1: was asleep, but usually she was in the mirror. And 679 00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:43,200 Speaker 1: I don't know what the story was of this person. 680 00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:46,839 Speaker 1: Later on I hired actually like Ghostbusters to check it out, 681 00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:49,960 Speaker 1: what the paranormal investigators, and they're like, well, you got 682 00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:53,600 Speaker 1: something here, we don't know what it is. And I 683 00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:56,120 Speaker 1: should also say I don't really believe in ghosts, because 684 00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:59,719 Speaker 1: you know, I kind of think it's bullshit. But and 685 00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:01,560 Speaker 1: they my mother dinner, I cleaned up dinner, I went 686 00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:04,680 Speaker 1: upstairs to my high school bedroom and I went to 687 00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:07,680 Speaker 1: the bathroom and then out of the corner of my eye, 688 00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:10,759 Speaker 1: I saw this figure in the mirror, and I thought 689 00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:14,640 Speaker 1: to myself, Holy ship, there she is again. After all 690 00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:18,640 Speaker 1: these years, that ghost is still here. And then I 691 00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:21,640 Speaker 1: turned around, and of course you can see where the 692 00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:25,520 Speaker 1: story is going. It was just me. Now, I was 693 00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:28,680 Speaker 1: the older woman in the ninety you know, and I 694 00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:31,080 Speaker 1: kind of wondered, was that the ghost that I was 695 00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:34,160 Speaker 1: seeing when I was a kid? Was it the ghost 696 00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:37,400 Speaker 1: of the person that I eventually turned out to be. 697 00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:41,600 Speaker 1: Sounds crazy, isn't it. Can you be your own guardian angel? 698 00:41:42,239 --> 00:41:45,960 Speaker 1: Can you look back over the years, maybe when I 699 00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:49,960 Speaker 1: was a kid and living this arcane private life. Something 700 00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:54,840 Speaker 1: in me knew or hoped that there was a possible 701 00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:59,799 Speaker 1: world some day in which I would be solid, you know, 702 00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:02,120 Speaker 1: but I would be openaking in the world ranther than 703 00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:18,040 Speaker 1: just as kind of specter. Family Secrets is an I 704 00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:22,200 Speaker 1: Heeart Media production. Dylan Fagan is the supervising producer and 705 00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:26,040 Speaker 1: Bethan Mcaluso is the executive producer. We'd also like to 706 00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:29,000 Speaker 1: give a special thanks to Tyler Klang and Tristan McNeil. 707 00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:32,080 Speaker 1: If you have a family secret you'd like to share, 708 00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:35,279 Speaker 1: leave us a voicemail and your story could appear on 709 00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:40,000 Speaker 1: an upcoming episode. Our number is one eight eight secret zero. 710 00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:44,280 Speaker 1: That's secret and then the number zero. You can also 711 00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:49,160 Speaker 1: find us on Instagram at Danny Ryder and Facebook at 712 00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:54,080 Speaker 1: facebook dot com slash Family Secrets Pod and Twitter at 713 00:42:54,120 --> 00:43:14,200 Speaker 1: fami Secrets pod m. For more podcasts for My Heart Radio, 714 00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:17,200 Speaker 1: visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever 715 00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:18,800 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.