1 00:00:02,400 --> 00:00:05,920 Speaker 1: You're listening to Math and Magic, a production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:10,240 Speaker 2: I knew I wanted to make a folk album at 3 00:00:10,280 --> 00:00:12,160 Speaker 2: the height of grunge, and I knew that the opposite 4 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:17,520 Speaker 2: exceeding were really slim, and it failed spectacularly for several years, 5 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:20,200 Speaker 2: to the point where I started to go in and 6 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 2: make a second album and give up on the first. 7 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:25,119 Speaker 2: But luckily Bob Dylan wanted to tour with me, and 8 00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:27,760 Speaker 2: he mentored me on tour and just told me to 9 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:30,280 Speaker 2: keep going and gave me the courage to keep going, 10 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:32,920 Speaker 2: and eventually that album went on to be the best 11 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:34,040 Speaker 2: selling album of all time. 12 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 3: Hi. I'm Bob Pittman, and welcome to Math and Magic. 13 00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:46,280 Speaker 3: On this episode, we're going to explore creativity their music, art, poetry, philanthropy, activism, 14 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:50,160 Speaker 3: and sometimes just for the soul. Our guest does all 15 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:52,840 Speaker 3: of that and has lived her life not the life 16 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:55,520 Speaker 3: others want her to live. She's one of those few 17 00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:59,360 Speaker 3: one name people. Jewel Jewel was worn in Utah, grew 18 00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:02,320 Speaker 3: up in a last performed as a kid, learned to 19 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:05,200 Speaker 3: Yoda at an early age, spent some time in Hawaii 20 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:09,120 Speaker 3: and down in San Diego. She had a huge early 21 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:12,240 Speaker 3: success as a singer songwriter, but did not follow the 22 00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:16,319 Speaker 3: usual trajectory of stardom. She built her own philosophy for 23 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:19,960 Speaker 3: her life and has expressed it through all she has created. 24 00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:23,560 Speaker 3: Probably most important, she has an impressive life of service 25 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:26,520 Speaker 3: to others, Yes, to her son and family, but also 26 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:29,680 Speaker 3: to those most in need. In other words, she's an 27 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:32,840 Speaker 3: impressive human in all ways, and a super nice person. 28 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:36,479 Speaker 4: Welcome, jewel shame, Thank you with kind introduction. 29 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:39,720 Speaker 3: Well, we are going to dig into some meaty topics, 30 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:42,600 Speaker 3: but first I want to do you in sixty seconds. 31 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:44,920 Speaker 3: Do you prefer cats or dogs? 32 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:45,639 Speaker 4: Both? 33 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:47,800 Speaker 3: Early riser or night out? 34 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:51,200 Speaker 4: Early raisin, West Coast or East coast, the middle of 35 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:52,120 Speaker 4: the country. 36 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:55,240 Speaker 3: Coffee or tea, tea, Yoda, ling or singing? 37 00:01:56,200 --> 00:01:56,720 Speaker 4: Same thing? 38 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 3: Books are movies? Cook or eat out? 39 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:02,680 Speaker 4: Eat out? 40 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:08,600 Speaker 3: Comedy or drama, comedy, call or text? Text, Bear lard 41 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:10,080 Speaker 3: biscuits or French fries. 42 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:12,280 Speaker 4: Bear lard biscuits every. 43 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:13,959 Speaker 3: Day all the childhood hero. 44 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 4: Hmmm, a nice name. 45 00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:21,240 Speaker 3: Most important bit of advice you ever heard? Hardwood grows slowly. 46 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:25,120 Speaker 3: Favorite place to visit, Venice, Italy. 47 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:31,240 Speaker 4: Secret talent, I can move my under eyelids. That's a 48 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:31,800 Speaker 4: good one. 49 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:33,480 Speaker 3: What did you want to be when you were growing up, 50 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:34,680 Speaker 3: someone helpful. 51 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:36,080 Speaker 1: Great. 52 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:39,640 Speaker 3: Okay, let's jump in. As I was digging through all 53 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:42,840 Speaker 3: the research on you, I was searching for what unifies 54 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:46,200 Speaker 3: it all the people I've ever had on this podcast. 55 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 3: You definitely have the most diverse set of life experiences. 56 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:54,880 Speaker 3: Come from Alaska settlers at your background, child performer with 57 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:58,480 Speaker 3: your family. You've been homeless. You spent a year in 58 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:02,079 Speaker 3: high school in Hawaii with an. You've had super success 59 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:03,880 Speaker 3: at an early age that you gave it up for 60 00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:06,400 Speaker 3: a few years to take a breather. You were smart 61 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:08,600 Speaker 3: enough at a young age to figure out not to 62 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:11,679 Speaker 3: take a big money advance for your record company. You've 63 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:14,480 Speaker 3: witnessed abuse and betrayal from those who love, yet it 64 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:18,400 Speaker 3: has never turned you dark. You've been in alternative music, 65 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:22,079 Speaker 3: pop music, country music, all with huge successes. You've won 66 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:25,200 Speaker 3: countless awards, performed at all the major sporting events, have 67 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:27,840 Speaker 3: sold over thirty million albums. By the way, you even 68 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:31,639 Speaker 3: won the Mask Singer. You're an author, You're an activist, 69 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:34,560 Speaker 3: You're an artist. You had a highly acclaimed exhibit at 70 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 3: Crystal Bridges built around your view of three planes. So 71 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:43,440 Speaker 3: maybe we start with three planes is that what unifies 72 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:47,720 Speaker 3: your life and doesn't help us understand who you are. 73 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 4: I think the thing. 74 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:53,200 Speaker 2: That unifies all of the really varied experiences have had 75 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 2: in my life is my desire to understand pain and 76 00:03:57,480 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 2: what do we do with it? And it set me 77 00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 2: off on a really epic life's adventure to see if 78 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 2: happiness was a learnable skill and a teachable skill, to 79 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:08,240 Speaker 2: try and make it the number one most important thing 80 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:11,160 Speaker 2: in my life. For me, the Three Planes and my 81 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 2: exhibit at Crystal Bridges was about trying to unify my 82 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:18,080 Speaker 2: life's work. I'm known as a musician, I'm also known 83 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:21,440 Speaker 2: by quite a few as a mental health advocate, and 84 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:23,800 Speaker 2: then a lot of people don't realize I'm a visual artist, 85 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:26,479 Speaker 2: and so I've done all of these things separately, sort 86 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:28,880 Speaker 2: of in silos in my life, and for me, the 87 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:31,680 Speaker 2: Crystal Bridges exhibit was a way to unify all of 88 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:35,400 Speaker 2: those things together into one experience that brought music, visual art, 89 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:38,720 Speaker 2: and behavioral health together. It is based on the philosophy 90 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:41,560 Speaker 2: of mine that I believe we each travel through three 91 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:45,279 Speaker 2: realms of reality every day, often without realizing it. We 92 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:47,720 Speaker 2: have our in our life, which are our thoughts and feelings. 93 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:50,120 Speaker 2: We have the scene life, which is our jobs and 94 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 2: finances and families in the physical world, and then we 95 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:57,600 Speaker 2: have our unseen life. Whatever helps us feel inspired and 96 00:04:57,640 --> 00:05:02,920 Speaker 2: in all that might be a specific theological perspective for people. 97 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:04,520 Speaker 4: For others, it just might be this. 98 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:07,320 Speaker 2: You know, when they see James Webb telescope images, they 99 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:12,080 Speaker 2: feel inspired. And so I think that mental health is 100 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 2: a side effect of learning how to navigate these three 101 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:19,240 Speaker 2: spheres with alignment. For instance, if I can introspect and 102 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:22,840 Speaker 2: understand what I think and feel, that's really critical. If 103 00:05:22,839 --> 00:05:25,520 Speaker 2: I can then articulate that to my boss or my 104 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:28,440 Speaker 2: partner and they can hear me and we can enact 105 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 2: physical changes based on that, that feels really good. Or 106 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:34,039 Speaker 2: if I feel like I know why I'm put on 107 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:36,840 Speaker 2: the planet and that also is my job, that makes 108 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 2: us feel really good. 109 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:39,320 Speaker 4: And the adverse is true. 110 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:42,720 Speaker 2: You know, if I cannot articulate my feelings, or if 111 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:45,760 Speaker 2: I won't you know, tell my friends and family who 112 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:49,479 Speaker 2: I authentically am or feel accepted for it, it makes 113 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 2: us deeply unhappy because these conflicts really breed in happiness 114 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:56,800 Speaker 2: in our lives. And so that was the impetus for 115 00:05:56,839 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 2: me to do the Crystal Bridge as an event. Also 116 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:04,560 Speaker 2: just because I get restless if I'm not growing and 117 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:07,799 Speaker 2: learning and pushing myself, and so wanted to expand into 118 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:09,960 Speaker 2: visual art and pushing myself in any way. 119 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 3: I want to spend a second and get into creativity. 120 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:15,599 Speaker 3: You're right, You're known for many things, but probably best 121 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:20,159 Speaker 3: known as singer songwriter. So let's talk a minute about songwriting. 122 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 3: Where does the song come from, how do you develop it? 123 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:27,440 Speaker 3: And do you have any idea which ones will be 124 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:28,960 Speaker 3: popular or do you care? 125 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:34,719 Speaker 2: I developed my writing practice as it means for again 126 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:37,279 Speaker 2: going back to pain. You know, I grew up bar singing, 127 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:40,240 Speaker 2: and so I had a front row seat to what 128 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:42,920 Speaker 2: I realized was people in a lot of pain. I 129 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 2: was in a lot of pain because my mom had left. 130 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:47,160 Speaker 2: My dad took over raising us, but had become an 131 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:51,839 Speaker 2: alcoholic and abusive. And I realized, you know, by observing 132 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:54,720 Speaker 2: people in these bars, that everybody was trying to understand 133 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:58,240 Speaker 2: what to do with pain, and some people use drugs, alcohol, sex, 134 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:02,200 Speaker 2: violent relationships, and it made me wonder what am I 135 00:07:02,279 --> 00:07:06,200 Speaker 2: going to do? And nobody out runs pain, and the buffalo, 136 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:08,800 Speaker 2: I learned, is the only animal that goes into the 137 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:11,720 Speaker 2: heart of a storm, because the quickest way is through, 138 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:14,280 Speaker 2: and so I had to ask myself, what is the 139 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 2: quickest way through if you can't outrun something painful? And 140 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:21,920 Speaker 2: for me, I realized that my journaling, you know, I 141 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:25,040 Speaker 2: was writing from a young age, was bringing me into 142 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:28,680 Speaker 2: the heart of the pain, and that actually alleviated the pain. 143 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:32,840 Speaker 2: And so I did it as a survival mechanism because 144 00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:35,520 Speaker 2: it helped me relieve that pressure just enough that I 145 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:39,280 Speaker 2: could cope. And that led later, you know, when I 146 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:42,720 Speaker 2: was sixteen to beginning to write songs. But it wasn't 147 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 2: to have a career. I just started writing songs because 148 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 2: I was going to school in Michigan. 149 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 4: I was already on my own. 150 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:50,680 Speaker 2: I moved out at fifteen, and I couldn't afford to 151 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:53,680 Speaker 2: get home to Alaska for spring break, and so I 152 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 2: thought I would hitchhike across the country and I would 153 00:07:56,440 --> 00:07:59,440 Speaker 2: afford it by street singing. And so that's how I 154 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 2: learned my first four chords. It was a minor CG 155 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:05,080 Speaker 2: and D. I couldn't go out of order because I 156 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 2: didn't know how, and I thought I would just improvise 157 00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:11,200 Speaker 2: lyrics about people as they walked by, and so That's 158 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:13,320 Speaker 2: how I came up with the first lyrics to my 159 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:16,240 Speaker 2: first song, which was you know, people living their lives 160 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:18,360 Speaker 2: for you on TV, they say they're better than you, 161 00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:21,520 Speaker 2: and you agree. It was really me just observing pop 162 00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:25,320 Speaker 2: culture and America. Yes, Alaska is part of America, but 163 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:28,240 Speaker 2: it's very different. And so by the end of that 164 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:31,240 Speaker 2: two week trip, not only did I survive and not 165 00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:33,640 Speaker 2: get murdered, but I ended up with a song and 166 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:38,000 Speaker 2: I was just absolutely smitten. It made me feel powerful, 167 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:39,760 Speaker 2: not because you know, I thought I was kind of 168 00:08:39,800 --> 00:08:42,920 Speaker 2: a career. It just made me feel empowered. It was 169 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:46,760 Speaker 2: a real joy, and joy was a scarce commodity in 170 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 2: my life, and I really enjoyed it. But to answer 171 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:53,280 Speaker 2: your question, I don't typically sit down with a purpose 172 00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:55,280 Speaker 2: or a name or a title unless I'm in a 173 00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:58,439 Speaker 2: co writing session, in which case I will come in with, 174 00:08:58,640 --> 00:09:02,199 Speaker 2: you know, preconceived coms. But typically I like not having 175 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:03,160 Speaker 2: that preconceived notion. 176 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:05,840 Speaker 3: Has the process changed for you over time? 177 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:11,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, becoming a mom significantly impacted my free time where 178 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:15,720 Speaker 2: there wasn't just that luxury of sitting around and an 179 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:17,679 Speaker 2: idea coming to you and you work on it till 180 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:19,760 Speaker 2: three am. I learned that I had to be a 181 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:22,160 Speaker 2: lot more scheduled if I was going to write. 182 00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:26,640 Speaker 3: So how does that create a process differ from visual 183 00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:28,480 Speaker 3: arts and writing that you also do. 184 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:31,680 Speaker 2: The thing that I find similar about all of the 185 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:35,640 Speaker 2: different mediums is that it starts with this sort of 186 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:38,960 Speaker 2: nebulous feeling. I write from a feeling or an urge. 187 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 2: It's usually nameless and indescript, but it's intense in my body. 188 00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:47,319 Speaker 2: And then I start to investigate it, and sometimes that 189 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:50,360 Speaker 2: feeling wants to come out as a poem and it 190 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 2: just never will be a song. 191 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:53,360 Speaker 4: It just is a poem. O. 192 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:56,760 Speaker 2: There are times, you know, songs have a very specific 193 00:09:56,800 --> 00:10:01,240 Speaker 2: structure and pedameter and rhyme scheme. Visual art, I think 194 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:07,160 Speaker 2: is the original language. You know, form and symbolism is 195 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:09,760 Speaker 2: what we had before we have the written word. And 196 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:13,319 Speaker 2: so it's all storytelling, and it's all communicating a story 197 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 2: and trying to find the most elegant and refined, simple 198 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:22,079 Speaker 2: version of that idea or feeling to communicate that story 199 00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:24,960 Speaker 2: clearly to people, no matter what medium you're doing. 200 00:10:25,720 --> 00:10:30,959 Speaker 3: So let's talk about integrity, honesty, and candor. You're known 201 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 3: for telling people truths. You tell it in your songs, 202 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:37,040 Speaker 3: but personally, you're also known for being a straight ahead, 203 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:40,640 Speaker 3: very honest person with people, even when it's hard for 204 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:44,920 Speaker 3: them to hear. Where does that clarity of vision encourage 205 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:46,400 Speaker 3: to say it come from? 206 00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:49,600 Speaker 2: Some of the worst pain I've been in my life 207 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:55,080 Speaker 2: has been when I was guarded and not transparent, and 208 00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:57,760 Speaker 2: I learned that it's a lot less painful to be 209 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:02,040 Speaker 2: vulnerable and to be honest because it allows for connection. 210 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:05,920 Speaker 2: When I was homeless, I was really suffering from loneliness, 211 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:07,840 Speaker 2: and I realized in a way that I deserved it 212 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:12,760 Speaker 2: because nobody knew me. I hid because safety was in hiding. 213 00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:16,000 Speaker 2: You know, you don't move out at fifteen, and it's 214 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:19,680 Speaker 2: not safe. But I realized that the strategy I developed 215 00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:23,520 Speaker 2: to be safe, which was kind of hiding not being truthful, 216 00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:26,120 Speaker 2: was causing me to pay a really huge price. And 217 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:28,040 Speaker 2: so I took a big risk while I was homeless, 218 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:32,200 Speaker 2: and I started singing in a coffee shop and I 219 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:36,559 Speaker 2: decided to tell the truth. And amazingly, people didn't shun 220 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 2: me or turn me away. They cried and I cried, 221 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:43,760 Speaker 2: and it was like this five hour show for two 222 00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:46,560 Speaker 2: people in a coffee shop when I was homeless, But 223 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:50,320 Speaker 2: It was so rewarding because I actually felt connection. And 224 00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:52,839 Speaker 2: the truth is we all have the exact same feelings. 225 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:56,800 Speaker 2: We all experienced betrayal and hurt and jealousy, and you know, 226 00:11:57,760 --> 00:12:01,400 Speaker 2: great feelings and less than great feelings, and might as 227 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 2: well talk about it because it leaves a tremendous burden. 228 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:06,760 Speaker 2: And that ended up serving me really well as a 229 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:10,080 Speaker 2: famous person, because you know you're going to be put 230 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:12,640 Speaker 2: on a pedestal, which is nobody deserves to be on 231 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:13,160 Speaker 2: a pedestal. 232 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:14,000 Speaker 4: Nobody's perfect. 233 00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:17,120 Speaker 2: And I found that by knocking myself off the pedestal 234 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:19,760 Speaker 2: gave me a lot of safety, and it gave me 235 00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:23,040 Speaker 2: permission to grow, which is really critical for somebody that's 236 00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 2: nineteen years old to getting in an industry. You can't 237 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:28,800 Speaker 2: take a stance as if that stance is never going 238 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 2: to change. 239 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:30,559 Speaker 4: You have to be. 240 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:34,280 Speaker 2: Able to make room for yourself to think, to adjust, 241 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:37,079 Speaker 2: and thanks to the Internet, I was able to do 242 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:40,679 Speaker 2: that directly with people and not just to be interpreted 243 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:42,160 Speaker 2: through a journalist or something. 244 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:46,480 Speaker 3: We're getting into some interesting topics about your background, so 245 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:49,320 Speaker 3: let's go back in time to get your context. You 246 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:51,920 Speaker 3: were born in Utah, then went to your family's roots 247 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:54,720 Speaker 3: in Alaska where you grew up. By the way, both 248 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:57,000 Speaker 3: sides of your family had roots there. Can you give 249 00:12:57,080 --> 00:12:59,440 Speaker 3: us a little taste of that family history and a 250 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:02,800 Speaker 3: little bit about what Alaska felt like. You said, Yeah, 251 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:05,240 Speaker 3: Alaska's part of the United States, but it's pretty different. 252 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:08,120 Speaker 3: Can you tell us what that was at that moment 253 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:09,720 Speaker 3: and how it felt. 254 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:14,040 Speaker 2: My family were pioneers in Alaska. I think the difficult 255 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:16,840 Speaker 2: thing about healing and why maybe some of us don't 256 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:20,199 Speaker 2: want to look at our childhoods is because we think 257 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:22,199 Speaker 2: it has to either be all good or all bad. 258 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:26,360 Speaker 2: My family is really brilliant and has so much good, 259 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:31,040 Speaker 2: but like any fruit, there's bitter seeds with the sweet. 260 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:35,760 Speaker 2: My family that had so much charisma and incredible things. Also, 261 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:39,840 Speaker 2: there was a really you know, abusive aspect in the family, 262 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:42,920 Speaker 2: and my dad's childhood was so violent. Then when he 263 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:45,280 Speaker 2: went to Vietnam, it was relaxing. It was the first 264 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:48,640 Speaker 2: time he relaxed as a nineteen year old, and he 265 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:50,679 Speaker 2: picked up, of course, some more trauma there and went 266 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:53,320 Speaker 2: back to Marriot High School. Sweetheart, when my mom left, 267 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:55,720 Speaker 2: you know, he started to what today we would call 268 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 2: trauma triggering. He took us back to the homestead where 269 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:02,360 Speaker 2: I was raised. It was an incredible way to be raised. 270 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:06,800 Speaker 2: The land in Alaska is just so pristine and divine. 271 00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:09,760 Speaker 2: I always was aware I was in the presence of 272 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:13,040 Speaker 2: something great and bigger than me, and it was very healing, 273 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 2: which really helped me. 274 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:16,199 Speaker 4: Through a pretty hard childhood. 275 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 2: But that pioneer mentality being raised around, you know, there 276 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:24,160 Speaker 2: were no gender roles how I was raised. Women shoed 277 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:28,040 Speaker 2: horses and cut logs and build houses and my dad cooked, 278 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:30,280 Speaker 2: and it was just I was always taught that I 279 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:32,800 Speaker 2: was capable and that I was expected to figure it 280 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:35,600 Speaker 2: out whether I was capable or not, and that ended 281 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 2: up giving me a lot of, you know, confidence in 282 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:41,720 Speaker 2: how I approached my life, and it's probably why I 283 00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:43,840 Speaker 2: had the confidence to move out at fifteen of. 284 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:45,080 Speaker 4: Like, I'll figure this out. 285 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 2: I'd rather fight for myself and believe in myself than 286 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:52,200 Speaker 2: be in a position that I think is hurting me, 287 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:55,280 Speaker 2: and so I'd rather try to do better here. 288 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 3: Your parents were performers. You mentioned that, and you started 289 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:00,680 Speaker 3: performing with them. I think it about it age six. 290 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:04,000 Speaker 3: Your parents split up and you kept forming their dad 291 00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 3: you mentioned in sort of front row seat and bars 292 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:10,040 Speaker 3: and Honky talks. Can you paint that picture for us 293 00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 3: and tell us how that shaped you as a performer 294 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:14,080 Speaker 3: and an artist. 295 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:17,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, my parents had a dinner show in the nicest 296 00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:20,280 Speaker 2: hotel in Anchorage, Alaska when I was young, So I 297 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:23,120 Speaker 2: learned to yodel and started performing with them when I 298 00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:26,960 Speaker 2: was about age five. And then when my parents got divorced, 299 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:29,120 Speaker 2: my dad and I became a duet and we started 300 00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:32,760 Speaker 2: singing more in like Honky Tonks and lumberjack joints and 301 00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 2: fishermen haunts, biker bars. Definitely an education, you know. My 302 00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:42,320 Speaker 2: dad was really brilliant. We would do five hour sets, 303 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:44,560 Speaker 2: never would do a set list, did a mix of 304 00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:49,280 Speaker 2: covers and originals, very good at reading a crowd, very personable. 305 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:52,200 Speaker 2: Taught me to be very professional and to work hard, 306 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:55,320 Speaker 2: and we practiced and rehearsed long hours. Obviously, it was 307 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 2: a pretty vulnerable environment to be in, and I learned 308 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:01,160 Speaker 2: to trust my instincts because I had too, Like I 309 00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:03,400 Speaker 2: really had to learn how to look out for myself, 310 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:07,520 Speaker 2: to never confuse a man's attention for my value. Because 311 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:11,600 Speaker 2: I got to see before I was of age what 312 00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:15,400 Speaker 2: other women were going through, and in a lot of ways, 313 00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 2: it made me a much better person, and it really 314 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:22,800 Speaker 2: equipped me very well for the music industry because I 315 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:26,440 Speaker 2: had a really clear understanding of what I would and 316 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:30,240 Speaker 2: wouldn't do and what my actual value was, which I 317 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:34,280 Speaker 2: insisted wasn't about my sexuality or sex appeal. I thought 318 00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:37,000 Speaker 2: I should be taken seriously from my mind, and I 319 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:39,840 Speaker 2: was willing to walk away from any situation that didn't 320 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:42,880 Speaker 2: do that, and paid a big price multiple times, but 321 00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:47,080 Speaker 2: not the biggest price, which is compromising your own character. 322 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:52,080 Speaker 3: You spent a lot of time living without electricity. I 323 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:55,240 Speaker 3: assume you were under exposed to radio, TV, even pre 324 00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:57,920 Speaker 3: recording music. What do you think the impact of that 325 00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:00,280 Speaker 3: was on your brain and who you became. I mean, 326 00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 3: it's such a hot topic today about what phones and 327 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:06,679 Speaker 3: social and internet are doing to the kids. What's your 328 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:08,280 Speaker 3: view on it. 329 00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:11,119 Speaker 2: It was really a great way to be raised. It 330 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:14,760 Speaker 2: forced you to be creative. Every human is creative. You know, 331 00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:19,159 Speaker 2: play isn't creative. We're inventing play, and there's actually a 332 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:22,399 Speaker 2: lot of science about what you know. It's called open 333 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:25,840 Speaker 2: ended play. And when you have to turn a stick 334 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:28,680 Speaker 2: into a plane or a bridge or a train, that 335 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:33,680 Speaker 2: creativity creates neural synapses that don't get formed any other way. 336 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:38,400 Speaker 2: And so the more we have simple toys that cause 337 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:42,560 Speaker 2: us to employ our imagination. We've learned scientifically, you know 338 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:45,399 Speaker 2: that the more open time we have for kids to 339 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:49,159 Speaker 2: be bored, it's better for our brain development. And I 340 00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:51,119 Speaker 2: just happened to have been raised in a way that 341 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:55,640 Speaker 2: allowed those things. I think that being creative takes time 342 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:58,199 Speaker 2: to be alone with your thoughts, and that's definitely a 343 00:17:58,240 --> 00:17:59,119 Speaker 2: scarce commodity. 344 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:03,000 Speaker 3: Now you've lived without much yet you spent the last 345 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:06,160 Speaker 3: two years of high school in an elite private arts 346 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:09,760 Speaker 3: school in northern Michigan. What did you learn about your 347 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:11,600 Speaker 3: craft there? I think this is the first time you 348 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:14,479 Speaker 3: had sort of formal training in your craft. And what 349 00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:16,600 Speaker 3: did you learn about the world. I mean, this had 350 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 3: to be a whole new mix for you, not quite 351 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:22,440 Speaker 3: you know, Harry Potter going off to school, but had 352 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:25,240 Speaker 3: to be a pretty dramatic change from what you had 353 00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:25,960 Speaker 3: been living. 354 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:27,720 Speaker 4: It was definitely culture shock. You know. 355 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:29,879 Speaker 2: I had enough money to make it to Detroit, and 356 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:32,560 Speaker 2: then I hitchhiked from Detroit up to Traverse City, where 357 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:35,200 Speaker 2: my school is, and you know, I showed up in 358 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:37,719 Speaker 2: a biker jacket with a large skinning knife on my belt, 359 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:41,040 Speaker 2: and you know is it frowned on and the finest 360 00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:42,840 Speaker 2: establishment I found out. 361 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:45,520 Speaker 4: I was already paying rent. I was already on my own. 362 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:47,600 Speaker 2: I didn't have a lot in common with a lot 363 00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:51,280 Speaker 2: of the kids, and certainly just the culture shock of 364 00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:53,560 Speaker 2: the poverty that I came from and the wealth of 365 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:58,240 Speaker 2: other people. But realizing that I was a big fish 366 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 2: in a small pond, and you come to a place 367 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:03,119 Speaker 2: like that where everybody is talented, it really causes you 368 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:05,760 Speaker 2: to level up, which is great, and I loved that. 369 00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:07,720 Speaker 2: And I had access to some of the best teachers 370 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:10,280 Speaker 2: in the world, and so I didn't think I would 371 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:12,639 Speaker 2: get a scholarship to come back my senior year, and 372 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:15,480 Speaker 2: so I just set about doing everything I could to 373 00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:17,840 Speaker 2: take advantage of the situation that I was in and 374 00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:21,000 Speaker 2: take as many classes as I could. It was incredible. 375 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:24,639 Speaker 2: I learned so much, part of which was vocal training, 376 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:26,720 Speaker 2: which was hard for me because I don't read music. 377 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:29,560 Speaker 2: Everybody there was classically trained. I was a bar singer, 378 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:32,000 Speaker 2: but it taught me how to use my falsetto and 379 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:34,320 Speaker 2: there's still things I learned to this day that I 380 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:36,880 Speaker 2: learned from that teacher. And she also was kind enough 381 00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:40,040 Speaker 2: to not force me into a mold. She recognized I 382 00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:42,359 Speaker 2: was different, I was coming from a different place, and 383 00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 2: she even let me skip a lot of my voice 384 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:47,400 Speaker 2: lessons so that I could take sculpture in other classes. 385 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:51,199 Speaker 3: More a math than magic. Right after this quick break, 386 00:19:56,119 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 3: welcome back to math and magic. Let's hear more from 387 00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:04,280 Speaker 3: my conversation with Ju. So let's talk about your big 388 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:07,640 Speaker 3: break story. Like many of us, you're not a college graduate. 389 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:10,439 Speaker 3: You went on another path. He had a couple of 390 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:13,239 Speaker 3: big setbacks, and you know I mentioned if you were 391 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:16,040 Speaker 3: in San Diego, fire because you wouldn't post for a 392 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:18,840 Speaker 3: calendar the owner wanted to make. Then you got fire 393 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:21,600 Speaker 3: because you refused a proposition from your boss, and the 394 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:24,520 Speaker 3: price you paid was actually to be homeless. You lived 395 00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:27,119 Speaker 3: in your car, then your car was stolen and you 396 00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:29,280 Speaker 3: were crashing on the beach or in a friend's couch. 397 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:31,960 Speaker 3: As you mentioned, you sort of went into the coffee 398 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:35,480 Speaker 3: houses at that point, I honestly can't imagine that trauma. 399 00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:40,040 Speaker 3: Yet somehow, at age nineteen, you've got offers from four 400 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:43,639 Speaker 3: major record labels and you signed with one, and it 401 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:46,879 Speaker 3: all begins. So tell us the story of how you 402 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:51,240 Speaker 3: made that job to these four companies interested in you, 403 00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:53,560 Speaker 3: and you deciding which one you're going to do to 404 00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:54,280 Speaker 3: build your career. 405 00:20:55,119 --> 00:21:00,480 Speaker 2: Being homeless is a really scary and vicious poverty that 406 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:03,119 Speaker 2: was surprisingly hard to get out of. You know, I 407 00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:06,080 Speaker 2: thought I'd just get a new job and save up money, 408 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:10,040 Speaker 2: and it just wasn't like that. It's an awful, vicious cycle. 409 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:12,879 Speaker 2: I was shoplifting a lot of time. I had, you know, 410 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:15,919 Speaker 2: panic attacks, agoraphobia, and I realized that I would end 411 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:18,040 Speaker 2: up in jail or debt if I didn't do something 412 00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:21,240 Speaker 2: about it. And I was trying to steal a dress 413 00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:23,960 Speaker 2: in a dressing room and just realized I was the statistic. 414 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:24,800 Speaker 4: And I remember this. 415 00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 2: I think it was a stoic quote that said, happiness 416 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:29,600 Speaker 2: doesn't depend on who you are, what you have, It 417 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:31,920 Speaker 2: depends on what you think. And so I wanted to 418 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:33,720 Speaker 2: see if I could double down on that and really 419 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:35,920 Speaker 2: change my life when thought at a time, because it's 420 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:40,360 Speaker 2: all I had. If you can create a space so 421 00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:43,040 Speaker 2: that when you're you know, today, what you would call triggered, 422 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:46,160 Speaker 2: instead of having a knee jerk reaction, you can form 423 00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:49,000 Speaker 2: a more thoughtful response that actually put me in a 424 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:55,360 Speaker 2: very powerful position, because between thinking and action, you can 425 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:58,000 Speaker 2: change your life. And I knew it. I knew that's 426 00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:02,040 Speaker 2: what I stumbled on. So I really doubled down on that. 427 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:02,679 Speaker 4: You know. 428 00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:04,359 Speaker 2: The first thing I tried to work on was my 429 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:07,199 Speaker 2: stealingks that would end me up in jail, and so 430 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:09,840 Speaker 2: to stop stealing, I tried to replace it with writing. 431 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:12,560 Speaker 2: I was a really prolific thief. That caused me to 432 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:15,679 Speaker 2: become a very prolific writer, and so I wrote songs 433 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:18,520 Speaker 2: about what I was dealing with. Started singing in a 434 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:22,000 Speaker 2: coffee shop every Thursday. I went from two people to four, 435 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:25,400 Speaker 2: to twelve to sixteen. I wasn't trying to get discovered. 436 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:27,800 Speaker 2: I was just trying to figure my life out. Is 437 00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:31,080 Speaker 2: trying to get rent. But after I don't know, six 438 00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:34,479 Speaker 2: months or eight months or something like that, Nancy, who 439 00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:36,200 Speaker 2: ran the coffee shop, was like, Julie're not going to 440 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:39,000 Speaker 2: believe it, but Sony Records is coming tonight. I was 441 00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:41,360 Speaker 2: like what, And I knew nothing. You know, I did 442 00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:44,080 Speaker 2: five hour shows. I wouldn't let people use the restroom 443 00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:46,560 Speaker 2: until one in our messium in the middle. These poor 444 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:50,040 Speaker 2: executives that came were you know, ridiculed for trying to 445 00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:52,320 Speaker 2: stand up in the middle of a song. And then 446 00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:55,840 Speaker 2: more labels came, and more labels came, many, many labels came, 447 00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:58,919 Speaker 2: and ultimately there was a bidding war, and I was 448 00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:02,520 Speaker 2: offered a million dollars signing bonus coming from a ranch. 449 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:05,680 Speaker 2: You know, on horse Traders, nobody gives you something for free, 450 00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:07,800 Speaker 2: and so I wanted to know what the catch was, 451 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:10,800 Speaker 2: and so I went to the library where there was 452 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:14,879 Speaker 2: Don Pass what's his name, Pasma, Yeah, thanks, called everything 453 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:17,399 Speaker 2: you need to know about the music business, and so 454 00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:20,360 Speaker 2: it just taught me how contracts work, how advances were. 455 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:24,639 Speaker 2: That the million dollars was indeed in advance, and I 456 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:27,720 Speaker 2: calculated how many albums I'd need to sell to pay 457 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:30,679 Speaker 2: back that advance, and not to mention the fact that 458 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:33,600 Speaker 2: it also have more in crude debt, because I would be, 459 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:37,600 Speaker 2: you know, having promotional expenses, and I realized that that 460 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:40,639 Speaker 2: would basically put a big bounty on my head. And 461 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:43,120 Speaker 2: I didn't want a million dollars. I wanted a career. 462 00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:45,879 Speaker 2: I wanted a way to figure out how to do 463 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:47,840 Speaker 2: something that I loved for the rest of my life. 464 00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:50,840 Speaker 2: And I was being given a really unusual opportunity to 465 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:53,760 Speaker 2: have a shot at it, but I didn't think taking 466 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:57,120 Speaker 2: the advance would actually put me in the best position. 467 00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:58,119 Speaker 4: For what my real goal was. 468 00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:02,320 Speaker 2: I was also really scared because you don't take kids 469 00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:05,280 Speaker 2: like me with my emotional background and make them famous. 470 00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:07,080 Speaker 4: I think that's going to work out well. 471 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:11,440 Speaker 2: Every movie about people like me ends with death and addiction, 472 00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:15,320 Speaker 2: and I knew I was a very prime candidate for that, 473 00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:18,240 Speaker 2: and that what I was being offered was actually something 474 00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:21,879 Speaker 2: very dangerous dressed in the clothing of something very alluring. 475 00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:25,000 Speaker 2: And so I had to have a real plan, and 476 00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:29,399 Speaker 2: so I decided to make a promise to myself that 477 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:33,199 Speaker 2: my number one job was to learn about happiness, and 478 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:36,640 Speaker 2: that meant I had to have auditible metrics around it 479 00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:40,840 Speaker 2: that I would check in with myself. And then my 480 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:43,480 Speaker 2: number two job was to be a musician, and that 481 00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:45,439 Speaker 2: under that, I wanted to be an artist more than 482 00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:48,199 Speaker 2: I wanted to be famous, and armed with that, I 483 00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:52,480 Speaker 2: had a hierarchical way to make decisions, and so that's 484 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:55,240 Speaker 2: why I turned down the advance. I did negotiate the 485 00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:57,920 Speaker 2: biggest back end I think anybody had ever been awarded 486 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:01,080 Speaker 2: up to that point, stured the deal with the help 487 00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:04,600 Speaker 2: of my lawyer to actually have you know, triggers for 488 00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:07,480 Speaker 2: every I think it was five hundred thousand or million 489 00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:10,320 Speaker 2: albums sold, I would actually gain a point on the 490 00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:13,399 Speaker 2: back end, and I just de risked everything on the 491 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:15,480 Speaker 2: front end, so I was not at risk to a 492 00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:17,840 Speaker 2: label because I knew I wanted to make a folk 493 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:19,720 Speaker 2: album at the height of grunge, and I knew that 494 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:23,520 Speaker 2: the opposite that succeeding were really slim, and so that's 495 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:27,119 Speaker 2: how I negotiated the deal. And it looked like it 496 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:29,159 Speaker 2: was probably a mistake for quite a long time. 497 00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:29,560 Speaker 4: You know. 498 00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:32,840 Speaker 2: I made a folk album with Milli Young's producer at 499 00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 2: his ranch, and it failed spectacularly for several years, to 500 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:40,280 Speaker 2: the point where I started to go in and make 501 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:42,600 Speaker 2: a second album and give up on the first. But 502 00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:45,800 Speaker 2: luckily Bob Dylan wanted to tour with me, and he 503 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:48,600 Speaker 2: mentored me on tour and just told me to keep 504 00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:51,040 Speaker 2: going and gave me the courage to keep going, and 505 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:54,159 Speaker 2: eventually that album went on to be the best selling 506 00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:55,040 Speaker 2: album of all time. 507 00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:59,639 Speaker 3: Pretty amazing, fantastic story. Now I want to follow up 508 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:03,360 Speaker 3: that story, though you had this incredible success, and then 509 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:05,320 Speaker 3: decide you're going to take a couple of years off. 510 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:06,959 Speaker 3: Where did that come from? 511 00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:10,159 Speaker 2: For me, that was making good on my promise to 512 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:14,200 Speaker 2: myself to put my happiness first, to break my career. 513 00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:17,360 Speaker 2: I was doing about one thousand shows at least a year. 514 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:19,680 Speaker 2: I was doing five and six shows a day, sometimes 515 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:20,600 Speaker 2: two cities a day. 516 00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:22,080 Speaker 4: And then once I. 517 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:26,800 Speaker 2: Got successful, it's about the same thing with a lot 518 00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:30,560 Speaker 2: more pressure. You know. By the time Hands came out, 519 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:33,520 Speaker 2: which was about that time when I was homeless, I 520 00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:35,159 Speaker 2: was on the cover of Time magazine, and I was 521 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:37,200 Speaker 2: one of the most famous people in the world, and 522 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:40,000 Speaker 2: I couldn't I was having death threats all the time, 523 00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:44,040 Speaker 2: you know, fire bombs left outside my house, stalkers saying 524 00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:47,159 Speaker 2: they would shoot me in the head. During shows, couldn't 525 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:49,600 Speaker 2: walk across the street or go use a restroom without 526 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:53,800 Speaker 2: people following me. It was deeply triggering, you know, to 527 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:56,440 Speaker 2: somebody with me again with my background, where I find 528 00:26:56,480 --> 00:27:01,800 Speaker 2: strangers really triggering, could even get me into a panic attack. 529 00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:05,760 Speaker 2: I was not equipped for the level of attention that 530 00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:08,440 Speaker 2: I got, and so I had to give myself permission 531 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:11,240 Speaker 2: to stop or have a psychotic break, like I was 532 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:12,800 Speaker 2: on the edge of a breakdown. I was like, I'm 533 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:14,760 Speaker 2: not going to do that to myself. I don't need 534 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:17,800 Speaker 2: to be famous that bad, and so I let myself 535 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:19,480 Speaker 2: quip for as long as it took for me to 536 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:23,159 Speaker 2: understand what was happening to me, what worked for me, 537 00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:25,680 Speaker 2: and what didn't. At the end of the two years, 538 00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:28,120 Speaker 2: I realized I really did love music. I didn't want 539 00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:31,080 Speaker 2: to change careers. And in that two years I also 540 00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:33,800 Speaker 2: got a lot less famous, like to the point where 541 00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 2: I could go grocery shopping, and so I realized I 542 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:41,240 Speaker 2: liked music. And then I realized, like I could just 543 00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:45,119 Speaker 2: rate my career like I could rate it by taking 544 00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:49,480 Speaker 2: huge breaks between albums, which is counter, you know, intuitive 545 00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:51,680 Speaker 2: to what any musician should do if they want to 546 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:56,199 Speaker 2: make money and keep their momentum going. But it was 547 00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:59,720 Speaker 2: really good for me because it really helped my mental 548 00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:03,080 Speaker 2: health health and to be I think a great artist, 549 00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:06,439 Speaker 2: you have to have great periods of stillness where you 550 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:09,119 Speaker 2: replenish and you learn and you grow so that you 551 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:11,600 Speaker 2: can have this output. And I think that how we 552 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:14,840 Speaker 2: manage careers, and indeed, just a lot of businesses, we're 553 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:19,439 Speaker 2: expecting a constant linear curve up and that's anti nature. 554 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:24,199 Speaker 2: Nature has winter, and artists need winter. They need a 555 00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:29,240 Speaker 2: fallow season to prepare the fields for another tremendous season 556 00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:32,479 Speaker 2: of growth and fruit. We don't just get fruit all 557 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:35,520 Speaker 2: the time without paying a massive price. And so I 558 00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:39,480 Speaker 2: just realize that for myself, putting myself in alignment to 559 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:44,200 Speaker 2: nature and natural rhythms, honoring my own natural rhythms, taking 560 00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:46,760 Speaker 2: breaks between albums, you know, that definitely meant I'd have 561 00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:49,840 Speaker 2: to work harder. You know, switching genres is a lot 562 00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:53,080 Speaker 2: of work, and then taking breaks and having to build 563 00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:54,840 Speaker 2: up your momentum again is a lot of work. But 564 00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:57,400 Speaker 2: it's just work. I don't mind work, you know. And 565 00:28:57,440 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 2: so that's how I said about my career. 566 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:03,120 Speaker 3: You know, it is one of the most special things 567 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:05,280 Speaker 3: about you, and it's coming out in all this conversation, 568 00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:10,920 Speaker 3: is this sense of yourself but also a sense of others, 569 00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:16,120 Speaker 3: an incredible empathy, and how you've managed to channel your 570 00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:19,240 Speaker 3: skills to to help others. You did the project Clean 571 00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:22,320 Speaker 3: Water back in nineteen ninety seven, Higher Ground for Humanity 572 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:24,520 Speaker 3: in nineteen ninety eight two thousand and one, you helped 573 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 3: co found the Inspiring Children Foundation. Here at iHeart, We've 574 00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:31,080 Speaker 3: done the not alone challenge with you, you sort of 575 00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:32,479 Speaker 3: go on and on and by the way, that's just 576 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:36,560 Speaker 3: this smattering of what you've done, why, what motivates you, 577 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:39,080 Speaker 3: and what are you trying to contribute here. 578 00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:44,720 Speaker 2: I think anybody that's known great suffering knows just how 579 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:48,640 Speaker 2: much help matters. I think it's actually the saddest thing 580 00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:54,560 Speaker 2: about wealth is that it gives people a false sense 581 00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:59,560 Speaker 2: of self sufficiency. We're interconnected and we need each other, 582 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:03,520 Speaker 2: and the people who are most vulnerable amongst us really 583 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:07,160 Speaker 2: know that. And feeling that safety net, you know of 584 00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:10,720 Speaker 2: another woman saying I got you, I'll help you with 585 00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:13,680 Speaker 2: the rent this month, or I'll help you with your child, 586 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:17,120 Speaker 2: or that safety net, we really really rely on it. 587 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:19,240 Speaker 2: And so I just, you know, I haven't been able 588 00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:21,120 Speaker 2: to go through my life and on the suffering I 589 00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:24,400 Speaker 2: have without also, you know, feeling like if there's something 590 00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:27,160 Speaker 2: I can do about it, like why wouldn't I? And 591 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:31,200 Speaker 2: it's fun, like being a rock star is very very fun, 592 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:36,280 Speaker 2: but helping people enjoy living is way more fun. So 593 00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:39,360 Speaker 2: I don't know why people don't help or wouldn't help. 594 00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:43,080 Speaker 2: It's a big priority for me in my life. An 595 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:46,280 Speaker 2: act of power is something that benefits you and your community. 596 00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:48,920 Speaker 2: Otherwise it isn't power, it's false power. And I think 597 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:50,360 Speaker 2: that's what we're really seeing in our world. 598 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:53,520 Speaker 3: Well, we're lucky to have you and have you committed 599 00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:56,480 Speaker 3: to this. I know the pain's awful, but it really 600 00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:58,880 Speaker 3: is being put to a very good purpose for society. 601 00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:03,560 Speaker 3: We usually end each episode of Math and Magic by 602 00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:08,360 Speaker 3: giving some shout outs. Who's your most important magician and 603 00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:11,040 Speaker 3: who's the most important mathematician in your mind? 604 00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:15,120 Speaker 2: My favorite mathematician and magician are the same person, and 605 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:18,880 Speaker 2: at Steve Wozniak. He's brilliant and so funny and such 606 00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:21,720 Speaker 2: a prankster, and my son literally just knows him as 607 00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:22,360 Speaker 2: the magician. 608 00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:25,960 Speaker 3: Oh, I love that, And I want to end this 609 00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:29,160 Speaker 3: episode with you giving a shout out to the greatest 610 00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:31,720 Speaker 3: influence on your career that are alive. 611 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:34,640 Speaker 2: I think the thing that always inspired me as an 612 00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:41,800 Speaker 2: artist were the writers that gave a voice to the disenfranchised. 613 00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:47,480 Speaker 2: Check Off, Pablo Neruda Steinbeck, you know, Marvin Gaye, What's 614 00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:48,040 Speaker 2: going on? 615 00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:50,920 Speaker 4: Bob Dylan, Joni Mitchell, Nina Simone. 616 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:54,160 Speaker 2: I think that's always really inspired me and touched me, 617 00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:57,480 Speaker 2: and people that had the courage to say who they were. 618 00:31:57,520 --> 00:31:59,840 Speaker 2: It's why I loved Innisnn. It's not because I wanted 619 00:31:59,880 --> 00:32:01,960 Speaker 2: to be here, you know, I loved Bokowski. It's not 620 00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:04,440 Speaker 2: that I wanted to be Bukowski. It's that it was 621 00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:07,480 Speaker 2: a revolution to hear somebody just sell the truth about 622 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:10,800 Speaker 2: who they were, warts and all, and that inspired me 623 00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:12,360 Speaker 2: to be the type of person that I am and 624 00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:13,560 Speaker 2: to have the courage to do that. 625 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:19,760 Speaker 3: Juel, you are a really unusual person who has had 626 00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:23,280 Speaker 3: remarkable success, but probably the most important, you've had an 627 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:27,920 Speaker 3: amazingly positive impact on others' lives. Thanks for sharing your 628 00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:32,240 Speaker 3: stories today and congrats on your enduring success and impact. 629 00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:36,680 Speaker 3: Here are a few things I picked up from my 630 00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:40,680 Speaker 3: conversation with Jewel. A difficult season makes for periods of 631 00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:45,000 Speaker 3: great growth. Jewel has prioritized mental health, happiness, and intervals 632 00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:49,400 Speaker 3: to rest and recharge. In a society the values constant output. 633 00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:52,880 Speaker 3: This can seem like weakness, but Jewel is litting proof 634 00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:56,760 Speaker 3: that it can lead to incredible creativity, renew passion, and 635 00:32:56,800 --> 00:33:01,400 Speaker 3: an eagerness to work hard. Two Devity is more valuable 636 00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:05,280 Speaker 3: than immediate reward. A one million dollars signing bonus was 637 00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:07,760 Speaker 3: dangled in front of jewel. It had hurt to turn 638 00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:10,480 Speaker 3: it down, but she wanted to de risk for record 639 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:13,520 Speaker 3: deal and give herself and her music time to grow. 640 00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:17,080 Speaker 3: An upfront payment isn't the only way to negotiate your value. 641 00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:20,080 Speaker 3: Doing your research, figuring out if there's a catch, and 642 00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:23,760 Speaker 3: setting goals for yourself are great ways to assess how 643 00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:27,440 Speaker 3: something will serve you in the long term. Three. Giving 644 00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:29,960 Speaker 3: back can be more powerful than being a rock star. 645 00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:33,120 Speaker 3: When you believe that all people are interconnected and that 646 00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:36,280 Speaker 3: power comes from helping your community, then there's no greater 647 00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:38,880 Speaker 3: pleasure than trying to make the world a better place. 648 00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:41,680 Speaker 3: I'm Bob Pittman. Thanks for listening. 649 00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:45,640 Speaker 1: That's it for today's episode. Thanks so much for listening 650 00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:49,240 Speaker 1: to Math and Magic, a production of iHeart Podcasts. The 651 00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:52,800 Speaker 1: show is created and hosted by Bob Pittman. Special thanks 652 00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:55,960 Speaker 1: to Sidney Rosenblum for booking and wrangling our wonderful talent, 653 00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:58,760 Speaker 1: which is no small feat. The Math and Magic team 654 00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:02,840 Speaker 1: is Jessica crime Chick and Bahed Fraser. Our executive producers 655 00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:05,920 Speaker 1: are Ali Perry and Nikki Etoor. Until next time,