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Speaker 1: Conversations on life, style, beauty, and relationships. It's the Velvet's

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Speaker 1: Edge podcast with Kelly Henderson.

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Speaker 2: The travel teen industry is a billion dollar industry that

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Speaker 2: is now being brought to the forefront of many political

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Speaker 2: conversations and questioned in their practices, use, and even abuse allegations.

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Speaker 2: Paris Hilton first shed light on the industry publicly by

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Speaker 2: sharing her experience in her documentary This Is Paris and

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Speaker 2: That is now the executive producer of the podcast Trapped

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Speaker 2: in Treatment, which will examine and expose the dark secrets

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Speaker 2: of the troubled teen industry. The podcast begins with the

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Speaker 2: focus on Provocanyon School. Each season will focus on the

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Speaker 2: story of one youth treatment facility, its survivors, and the

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Speaker 2: traumatizing abuse at the hands of their captors. I talked

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Speaker 2: to one of the hosts of Trapped in Treatment podcasts,

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Speaker 2: Caroline Cole. Caroline is an entrepreneur, activist, and trauma focused

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Speaker 2: women's transformation coach. At fourteen, Caroline was sent to a

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Speaker 2: lockdown behavior modification facility, where she would stay for twenty

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Speaker 2: nine months and encounter some of the most horrifying deprivations

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Speaker 2: of human rights, turning her pain into purpose. Caroline now

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Speaker 2: advocates for a world where the effects of trauma are

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Speaker 2: understood and public policy effectively allows for the treatment and

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Speaker 2: prevention of abuse in all forms. I want to believe

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Speaker 2: that all parties involved, the parents, the kids, everyone are

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Speaker 2: just doing the best they can at the time, but

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Speaker 2: unfortunately it does seem that the mental health offerings to

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Speaker 2: children and teens is lacking. I'm hoping this shed some

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Speaker 2: light on some of the only options parents probably feel

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Speaker 2: like they have. Also, how these types of facilities can

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Speaker 2: be monitored, altered and changed, and that having these conversations

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Speaker 2: calls up other options, other people, other ideas for a

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Speaker 2: new system to actually help, not further harm children. One

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Speaker 2: of the biggest red flags to me that we talked

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Speaker 2: about a lot in this conversation is the lack of

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Speaker 2: communication and transparency between the schools and the parents and

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Speaker 2: the kids. I just believe all relationships and people suffer

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Speaker 2: without those two things, and now I also believe it's

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Speaker 2: how these systems stay toxic. This conversation and topic does

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Speaker 2: contain talks of abuse, so I always want to warn

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Speaker 2: you guys ahead of time. It is, however, very informative

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Speaker 2: and it sheds lots of light on a world that

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Speaker 2: I personally didn't even know existed. So here's my conversation

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Speaker 2: with Caroline Cole of Trapped in Treatment. Okay, so we

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Speaker 2: were just talking about this, but I need you to

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Speaker 2: explain what is the troubled teen industry because it's something

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Speaker 2: I've never heard of until I started listening to you

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Speaker 2: Guys podcast.

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Speaker 3: I think most people haven't heard of it at face value,

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Speaker 3: but then once you hear more about it, you're like, oh, wait, no,

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Speaker 3: I actually knew someone in high school who went to

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Speaker 3: a place like that, or you know, all of a sudden,

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Speaker 3: there's more people who have connections to this industry than

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Speaker 3: you would think. And so to really define what we're

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Speaker 3: talking about, the troubled teen industry is really kind of

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Speaker 3: a spectrum of different types of residential facilities that claim

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Speaker 3: to provide some kind of behavior modification or treatment for teenagers.

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Speaker 3: And that spectrum really runs the gamut from being facilities

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Speaker 3: that are more like wilderness camps, boot camps, ranches, and

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Speaker 3: then it kind of goes all the way to the

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Speaker 3: other end of the spectrum where it looks more like

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Speaker 3: psychiatric residential facilities or even therapeutic boarding schools are kind

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Speaker 3: of in that realm. But you know, really, I think

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Speaker 3: what has made them notorious in recent years is all

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Speaker 3: of these types of settings really just have a long

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Speaker 3: history of pretty horrific abuse that's happening there.

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Speaker 2: How do you know the difference between this kind of

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Speaker 2: place that we're about to talk about in a boarding school,

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Speaker 2: Because when I first thought, oh, the troubled teen industry,

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Speaker 2: I immediately go to you, Oh, you know, there's so

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Speaker 2: many kids in my high school who got sent to

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Speaker 2: boarding school or something. But is there an actual difference?

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Speaker 3: So you do have of course, you're more like academic

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Speaker 3: boarding schools, which it's going to be more like a

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Speaker 3: college experience. You're going to live in dorms and there's

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Speaker 3: a lot of freedom, and of course there's structure in

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Speaker 3: boarding schools like that, but it doesn't have the element

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Speaker 3: of having some kind of treatment or therapeutic element. So

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Speaker 3: the moment that we start using words like therapeutic, and

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Speaker 3: I think this is good for everybody to know, but

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Speaker 3: therapeutic is not a regulated word, and so really anyone

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Speaker 3: can say that what they're doing is therapeutic, and this industry, oftentimes,

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Speaker 3: we had a really bad incident this is it's a

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Speaker 3: really horrific situation that happened. But a facility had put

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Speaker 3: this young sixteen year old girl in a horsewater troth

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Speaker 3: as a punishment, and it anyway, I won't get into

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Speaker 3: the traumatizing details of it, but later on the police

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Speaker 3: were investigating, you know, why did you put this young

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Speaker 3: woman in this horsewater troth? And the director of this

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Speaker 3: program had said it's a therapeutic water troth.

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Speaker 2: And we're like, put, literally, you could label anything therapeutic.

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Speaker 3: Right, right, right, So that's what we really see here.

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Speaker 3: But yes, very very different than like your traditional academic

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Speaker 3: boarding school. But really right now, it can be difficult

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Speaker 3: to tell sometimes if a facility is going to be

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Speaker 3: a good quality treatment option or if it's going to

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Speaker 3: be really one of these horrible, troubled teen facilities.

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Speaker 2: Well, we're talking specifically about the Provo Canyon School, which

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Speaker 2: is a lot of what Season one is of Trapped

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Speaker 2: In Treatment is based on. It's also what you, guys,

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Speaker 2: if you've seen that This is Paris documentary, would have

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Speaker 2: seen and listening to y'all's podcast, describe y'all describe actually

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Speaker 2: what happens in these schools in different episodes, and I mean,

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Speaker 2: there are stories of physical abuse and they put it

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Speaker 2: under the disguise of discipline, so kind of like what

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Speaker 2: you're saying that even put people in a horse trap

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Speaker 2: and call it therapy, sexual abuse called gynecological gynecological exams,

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Speaker 2: forced isolation, emotional and verbal abuse, so many different things.

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Speaker 2: And also the big thing that I really could not

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Speaker 2: wrap my mind around was how little contact the kids

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Speaker 2: at these schools are able to have with the outside world,

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Speaker 2: including their families. The one thing though, that I really

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Speaker 2: wanted to just start off with, was this whole experience

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Speaker 2: starts with a very traumatic experience for the kids that

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Speaker 2: are getting taken to these schools. And I think even

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Speaker 2: when listeners here, maybe this part you can immediately distinguish

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Speaker 2: the difference between therapy that I would assume is therapy

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Speaker 2: and then something that's really traumatizing. So can you talk

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Speaker 2: about a little bit just the transportation process and actual

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Speaker 2: transport to the school.

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Speaker 3: And how it happens. It's really it is very wild

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Speaker 3: that that this happens, but it's essentially so let's kind

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Speaker 3: of like walk you all through the experience. So let's

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Speaker 3: say you're a parent and your teenager is maybe they're

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Speaker 3: just making decisions that you're like, whoa this is They're

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Speaker 3: making bad decisions. They're maybe participating in risk seeking behavior

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Speaker 3: or other things like that, and you're like, I need

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Speaker 3: to do something, and so somehow you end up getting

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Speaker 3: connected with one of these schools. Well, typically what they'll

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Speaker 3: tell parents is that you know, you need to take

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Speaker 3: a mediate action or your child's going to die. You

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Speaker 3: need to do this now, or they're going to wind

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Speaker 3: up in prison. And so you already have a parent

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Speaker 3: who's fearful, and then you have this facility that's really

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Speaker 3: feeding into that fear. And so what they'll say is,

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Speaker 3: of course, is you're kind of working out the logistics

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Speaker 3: of like, Okay, well how do I do this? And

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Speaker 3: you know, yes, I trust you and I believe that

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Speaker 3: your program's going to help my family. And so this

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Speaker 3: program nine times out of ten, not every time, but

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Speaker 3: most times, the program will say we recommend that you

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Speaker 3: use a transport service. And essentially what that is is

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Speaker 3: many of these in like I'm kind of putting in

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Speaker 3: this in quotes, but like many of these transporters are

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Speaker 3: either former police officers, former military, and so the whole

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Speaker 3: idea is that they will come into your home and

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Speaker 3: they will remove your child for you, and they will

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Speaker 3: transport them to the facility. But oftentimes what that looks

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Speaker 3: like is they really encourage parents to allow them to

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Speaker 3: show up in the middle of the night. And so

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Speaker 3: I mean, just imagine it being the child. You're fast

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Speaker 3: asleep in your bed at home. You imagine the doors

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Speaker 3: are locked, You're in the middle of La la land,

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Speaker 3: having dreams, and all of a sudden, some man is

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Speaker 3: forcefully waking you up, saying, let's go, come on, get up,

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Speaker 3: wake up, we're going now. And I know from myself

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Speaker 3: I was also transported and they were like, you know,

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Speaker 3: don't make any sudden movements. If you have anything on you,

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Speaker 3: drop it now. And it's just this like overwhelming experience.

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Speaker 3: And Paris actually shared in her documentary This Is Paris

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Speaker 3: that she truly thought that she was being kidnapped. And

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Speaker 3: as most I've heard, what else.

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Speaker 2: Would you think? I mean, that's exactly what that sounds

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Speaker 2: like to me.

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Speaker 3: Exactly, And so that's really how this treatment gets started.

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Speaker 3: And so I think, I mean, that should be.

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Speaker 2: The first red flag, right, Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So it is one of the most traumatizing parts of

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Speaker 3: the experience, And I don't want to say the most

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Speaker 3: because it definitely gets borderline worse or at least in

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Speaker 3: line with that kind of treatment in the facility. I

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Speaker 3: guess the most more appropriate way to phrase it would

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Speaker 3: be it really foreshadows the rest of the experience at

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Speaker 3: the facility.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I cannot imagine to me that completely

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Speaker 2: contradicts anything that would be actually helpful. And I do know.

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Speaker 2: I'm sure parents, and we're going to talk about this

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Speaker 2: in a little bit, I feel like parents are also

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Speaker 2: being conned in a way. And I'm sure they really

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Speaker 2: have good intentions for their child or want to believe that,

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Speaker 2: but this and they just can't figure out how to

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Speaker 2: wrangle them or whatever it is going on in the home.

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Speaker 2: But what was interesting to me to hear too was

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Speaker 2: it wasn't necessarily children who are like committing massive crimes

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Speaker 2: or murder and things like this. It's a lot of

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Speaker 2: times a child suffering with anxiety and depression and so

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Speaker 2: then to go into the home in the middle of

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Speaker 2: the night and to be waken up like that, like

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Speaker 2: woken up like that, that is just I cannot imagine

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Speaker 2: ever being able to sleep again because you're in your

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Speaker 2: safe space, like you said, and you're being shook awake

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Speaker 2: and then taken away like that is kidnapping actually technically

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Speaker 2: if you think about what it is. So can you

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Speaker 2: talk a little bit about some of the kids that

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Speaker 2: are even being taken to these schools?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you made a really great point with that,

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Speaker 3: is that oftentimes, you know, we like to maybe think

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Speaker 3: that these kids are the worst of the worst, right, right,

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Speaker 3: these are the kids that we've already they've already had

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Speaker 3: all the interventions and it's not working, and maybe they're violent,

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Speaker 3: or we imagine all these other stories of what, you know,

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Speaker 3: what must happen for you to be in that situation

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Speaker 3: as a child. But like you said, really the truth

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Speaker 3: is is that most of these kids, and this includes

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Speaker 3: Paris and myself, we had undiagnosed ADHD, and so we

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Speaker 3: were daydreaming in class, We were not finishing our assignments,

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Speaker 3: we were you know, and so to an outsider and

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Speaker 3: maybe to our parents at the time, mine especially, they

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Speaker 3: were thinking, she just doesn't care. Right, she doesn't care.

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Speaker 3: She's not finishing her school work, she's not putting her

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Speaker 3: laundry away, she's you know. And also now as a

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Speaker 3: parent myself, I have three kids. I'm like someone. This

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Speaker 3: is also kind of just being a teenager, right, You're

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Speaker 3: going to play your music loud in your room, and

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Speaker 3: you're gonna want to hang out with your friends and

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Speaker 3: keep your door locked and start to have kind of

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Speaker 3: some of that independence. But I also do want to

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Speaker 3: say that there are many kids who get sent to

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Speaker 3: these programs that they're dealing with very serious depression and

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Speaker 3: mental health issues, and maybe they've already experienced trauma in

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Speaker 3: their lives and so they're acting out or whatever behavior

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Speaker 3: they're exhibiting is just a result of that trauma that

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Speaker 3: they've experienced. So you know, in those cases, I find

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Speaker 3: it especially sad because a lot of those kids they

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Speaker 3: want help, they want the assistance, and they go into

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Speaker 3: these programs thinking that that's what they're gonna get, and

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Speaker 3: really it's more of a long term scared straight program.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. You've mentioned a couple of times, and I talked

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Speaker 2: about this in the intro, but you are a survivor

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Speaker 2: of this industry, the troubled teen industry, and I wanted

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Speaker 2: to know. When I was listening to all the podcasts,

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Speaker 2: I was thinking, I wonder if she's ever felt that

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Speaker 2: there was one person even that actually wanted you to

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Speaker 2: get better or actually wanted to help you, or was

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Speaker 2: there supporting you, like in a positive way. Did you

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Speaker 2: ever feel that at all with any of the staff,

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 3: I think there were a couple. I will say that

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Speaker 3: I had a teacher that I was very close with,

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Speaker 3: and there was another dorm parent that I was very

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Speaker 3: close with. And I think it's a really kind of

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Speaker 3: conflicting feeling that a lot of us go through now

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Speaker 3: because I know that it wasn't up to them how

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Speaker 3: they treated us. You know, they had received instruction from

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Speaker 3: upper administration in the program that they could not be

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Speaker 3: nice to us, They could not show favoritism, they could

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Speaker 3: not be life or gentle or like in any of

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Speaker 3: those signs in a staff member. There was almost a

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Speaker 3: surefire way to get fired from the job. And so

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Speaker 3: the ones that were nice to us, they had to

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Speaker 3: do it very discreetly, right like I'm going to treat

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Speaker 3: you like a human being for a few minutes, but like,

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Speaker 3: don't tell anyone that I'm treating you like a human

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Speaker 3: being right now.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 3: And so I think too, as an adult now, I

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Speaker 3: would like to think if that if I was in

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Speaker 3: that situation and someone was telling me that I would

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Speaker 3: say what, no way, like, I'm not participating in this.

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Speaker 3: And so some of us definitely feel that they were complicit,

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Speaker 3: and if they were not outright abusive, many of them

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Speaker 3: were outright abusive. But then the other ones that weren't

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Speaker 3: were complicit in it. But I think too, when you're

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Speaker 3: a part of something like that, you tend to just

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Speaker 3: do what the other staff are doing, do what the

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Speaker 3: other adults are doing, and there's more of a tendency

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Speaker 3: to kind of not question if this is right.

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Speaker 2: Most of these places are built on the behavior modification theory,

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Speaker 2: which essentially just means for every action, there's a consequence.

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Speaker 2: But can you speak a little bit using your own

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Speaker 2: experience of what happened in school for you, like, what

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Speaker 2: does that actually translate to in a place like this,

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Speaker 2: Because I think ultimately that sounds like a good idea,

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Speaker 2: and that seems like, sure, that makes sense. That's how

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Speaker 2: life works, right, We do something and then we face

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Speaker 2: the consequence or we have a positive result, and that

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Speaker 2: does teach us what we want to do and what

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Speaker 2: actions we want to take. But the way that it

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Speaker 2: was described in the Trapped in Treatment podcast was very

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Speaker 2: different to me, and it kind of misses completely on

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Speaker 2: this whole thing. So can you talk about what it

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Speaker 2: actually looks like and how they're justifying it behind that theory.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. So it's funny because if you google behavior modification,

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Speaker 3: it sounds very benign, right, right. It's like, do you

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Speaker 3: want to stop eating so much sweets? Need to modify

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Speaker 3: your behaviors? And it sounds just very like doing something different, right,

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Speaker 3: of course, which is like the literal meaning. But in

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Speaker 3: these programs, behavior modification was the intent of the program,

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Speaker 3: but it was all kind of like underlying this idea

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Speaker 3: of tough love, right. And of course, tough love was

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Speaker 3: really kind of a popular idea when it came to

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Speaker 3: parenting or psychology or you know, all ways of life

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Speaker 3: a couple of decades ago. Oh maybe even farther back,

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Speaker 3: maybe like the nineteen eighties. Oh my gosh, I'm such

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Speaker 3: a millennial in that way. I'm so stuck. And like

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Speaker 3: twenty years ago was the eighties, right, But you know,

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Speaker 3: so you were looking at like the you know, sixties, seventies,

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Speaker 3: and eighties, there was really this idea of like tough love, right,

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Speaker 3: and so if a kid's being bad. They need as

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Speaker 3: harsh of a punishment as possible, and they'll never do

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Speaker 3: that thing again. And so they kind of took this idea,

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Speaker 3: but they spun it in a completely different direction. And

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Speaker 3: so you lived it. You breathed it every moment of

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Speaker 3: every day. And in the program that I went to,

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Speaker 3: and we actually get into this in episode six of

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Speaker 3: season two, our most recent season, I show you a

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Speaker 3: little bit about my story. But you know, at our program,

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Speaker 3: we were not allowed to talk for any reason at

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Speaker 3: any point of the day. It was twenty four hours

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Speaker 3: a day of complete silence. And I literally mean, and

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Speaker 3: I know I stress this so much, but I think

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Speaker 3: sometimes people don't get it. But like you could not

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Speaker 3: make eye contact with each other because that was considered communication. Yes,

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Speaker 3: you had to almost you just couldn't acknowledge that there

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Speaker 3: are people around you at all. You had to stare

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Speaker 3: at the wall in front of you, stare at the

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Speaker 3: book in front of you, and every single movement that

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Speaker 3: you made was being observed. And so you would get

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Speaker 3: in trouble if you let's say, well, go back to

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Speaker 3: the book example. So let's say you have a book

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Speaker 3: in front of you, You're supposed to be reading right now.

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Speaker 3: If someone catches your eyes not on your book, that

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Speaker 3: was an immediate demerit and you would get in trouble

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Speaker 3: for that. And so I think now too, looking at

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Speaker 3: you know, myself as an adult, it has made it

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Speaker 3: where I sometimes just feel uncomfortable existing right, Like I

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Speaker 3: feel like I'm already in trouble. Yeah, yeah, And that's

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Speaker 3: what it really creates in these kids, is like such

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Speaker 3: hyper awareness and hyper vigilance and never being able to

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Speaker 3: just relax or exist or make mistakes even right, That's

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Speaker 3: one of the things that you learn is like I

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Speaker 3: have to be robotically perfect, and it's really hard now.

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Speaker 3: I think for my mom who made the decision to

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Speaker 3: send me there because she didn't realize, she didn't know

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Speaker 3: that that's what it was actually like. So it yeah,

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Speaker 3: it was. It was a grueling day today. I was

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Speaker 3: there for two and a half years, and I.

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Speaker 2: Felt like I was there for forty That's like psychological torture.

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Speaker 2: And the other thing that's pinging to me is how

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Speaker 2: is that actually setting kids up to succeed in the

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Speaker 2: real world, Because, like you said, you're scared to exist

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Speaker 2: in your own space. Sometimes I would imagine it took

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Speaker 2: you a minute to be able to tell your body

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Speaker 2: it was okay to look around or breathe or have

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Speaker 2: a conversation with someone if you're supposed to be working,

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Speaker 2: like anything like that would take a long time to overcome.

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Speaker 3: It took many years. When I finally got out of

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Speaker 3: the program after two and a half years. I had

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Speaker 3: been sent there when I was fourteen, and then I

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Speaker 3: was almost seventeen by the time I left, so spent

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Speaker 3: you know, some pretty you know, key years of your

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Speaker 3: those development stages that you go through when you're an adolescent,

351
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Speaker 3: spent them in this facility. And when I got out,

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Speaker 3: I went back to a normal high school, and it

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Speaker 3: was the most alien experience. People are laughing and joking

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Speaker 3: and like, you know, throwing stuff at each other, I

355
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Speaker 3: don't know, and just like horse playing, and I it

356
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Speaker 3: was almost like shocking to me in that moment, like

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Speaker 3: I genuinely felt like an alien, and it actually made

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Speaker 3: it was incredibly saddening because I knew that, like, I

359
00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:35,120
Speaker 3: just want to be a normal kid, I just want

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Speaker 3: to be like my peers, but I've been through this

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Speaker 3: other experience that no one I know can relate to,

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Speaker 3: and actually the irony and that what's so funny is

363
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Speaker 3: when I got my first apartment, my very first roommate

364
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Speaker 3: actually had gone to one of these facilities also, but

365
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Speaker 3: we didn't know at the time that it was called

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Speaker 3: the Troubled teen industry, and we didn't realized that it

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Speaker 3: was as big as it was. I thought no one

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Speaker 3: had been through what I went through. So we seared

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Speaker 3: these stories where we're like, my facility was like that too,

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Speaker 3: and she was like, go way, so was mine, and

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Speaker 3: you know, and so actually it took many years later

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Speaker 3: for us to realize, yes, that's because these facilities exist

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Speaker 3: and we did have the same experience, so kind of

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Speaker 3: a weird twist of fate with that was.

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Speaker 2: A universe move. Yeah, yeah, guts together. Let's talk a

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Speaker 2: little bit about the industry then, since you just brought

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Speaker 2: it up, because you guys do a good job explaining

378
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Speaker 2: just and reminding people this is a business and so

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Speaker 2: at the end of the day, there are all these

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Speaker 2: incentives even for staff to get people to come in,

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Speaker 2: to get them to stay. And again we're going to

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Speaker 2: talk about parents in just a second, but part of

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Speaker 2: the lay that they do with parents would be even

384
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Speaker 2: like if you guys would get to leave. Well, if

385
00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:55,560
Speaker 2: they start acting up again, you get an incentive to

386
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Speaker 2: send them back for free for a couple months. And

387
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Speaker 2: there's all these different ways that they're in incentivizing having

388
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Speaker 2: children there. So can you just talk about the industry,

389
00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:06,800
Speaker 2: the money behind it. I know a lot of these

390
00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:09,480
Speaker 2: places are even private, and so they can't be regulated

391
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Speaker 2: in the same way as the public facilities. Just give

392
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Speaker 2: us a little background on that. I love how you've

393
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Speaker 2: done your homework on this, By the way, I swear

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Speaker 2: I actually like that hating.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I know, it seems like you have such an

396
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Speaker 3: in depth understanding of the issue. And yeah, so, I

397
00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:27,800
Speaker 3: mean it's a multi billion dollar industry now, and what

398
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Speaker 3: we've seen in the years since I went to a

399
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Speaker 3: program is that this industry has grown. And now, unfortunately

400
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Speaker 3: it's not just kids being privately placed by their parents,

401
00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:41,440
Speaker 3: but there's a lot of kids that are entering these

402
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Speaker 3: facilities through the child welfare system, through the juvenile justice system,

403
00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:49,880
Speaker 3: and even through the special education system. So taxpayers are

404
00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:54,520
Speaker 3: actually funding these placements, and these facilities are charging upwards

405
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Speaker 3: of ten to fifteen thousand dollars per month. So I mean,

406
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Speaker 3: it's just astronomical. And if you think of, let's say

407
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Speaker 3: a child in the child welfare system, you know, so

408
00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:13,879
Speaker 3: many kids end up in that system because their parents

409
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Speaker 3: are experiencing poverty or because there's been generational trauma or

410
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Speaker 3: other complexities that then that child ends up in the

411
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Speaker 3: child welfare system. But what if instead we took that

412
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Speaker 3: ten to fifteen thousand dollars a month and we used

413
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Speaker 3: it to uplift that family, to keep them together, to

414
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Speaker 3: get mom and dad substance, use therapy, to get them

415
00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:39,919
Speaker 3: hooked in with you know, community based care, wrap around services,

416
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Speaker 3: and really that would be a tenth of the cost.

417
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Speaker 3: And so it actually just doesn't make sense from a

418
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Speaker 3: financial perspective, but you know, talking about the operators themselves,

419
00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:57,720
Speaker 3: we actually just went to the Senate Finance Committee had

420
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Speaker 3: a massive committee hearing on this issue, and they had

421
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Speaker 3: been investigating four of these residential treatment providers, four of

422
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:10,160
Speaker 3: the biggest ones, and one of them is a company

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00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:14,440
Speaker 3: named Universal Health Services, and they own hundreds of facilities

424
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Speaker 3: throughout the US and right now they're valued at eleven

425
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Speaker 3: point eight billion dollars, Oh my god, eleven point eight

426
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Speaker 3: billion dollars and their CEO just last year made sixteen

427
00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:35,439
Speaker 3: million dollars, and so it's just you're looking at the

428
00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:40,000
Speaker 3: profit because really these kids are getting basically nothing in

429
00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:43,960
Speaker 3: these facilities. They're really lacking education. Oftentimes the bed that

430
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Speaker 3: they're sleeping on is just some kind of like a

431
00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:50,080
Speaker 3: styrofoam matt that's a couple inches thick. All of their

432
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Speaker 3: toiletries are like the most dollar store. I don't know

433
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Speaker 3: if anyone will know this reference, but at the facility

434
00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:00,760
Speaker 3: I went to, we used a brand call White Rain.

435
00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:03,439
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, you had that brand.

436
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:07,680
Speaker 3: Oh this is like true dollar store. You go buy

437
00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:11,040
Speaker 3: white Rain shampoo. You are paying a dollar, right that

438
00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:14,760
Speaker 3: you know? So, but so, I mean it's just like

439
00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:17,480
Speaker 3: where is that money actually going? And it's a really

440
00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:19,399
Speaker 3: good question that I don't know all the answers to,

441
00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:22,960
Speaker 3: but I know it's going into someone's pockets.

442
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:24,919
Speaker 2: Well, because even the food that was mentioned on the

443
00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:27,960
Speaker 2: podcast too, right, like the food was not of high

444
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:32,439
Speaker 2: quality or really that edible even in some places.

445
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:36,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, the food I think varies a lot from facility

446
00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:39,320
Speaker 3: to facility. But as you can imagine, and and really

447
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:42,640
Speaker 3: there's a lot of similarities between the troubled teen industry

448
00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:45,600
Speaker 3: and the issues that we see in the carcerles system,

449
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:48,399
Speaker 3: and so what kind of food can you feed at

450
00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:53,879
Speaker 3: a mass scale that is going to be easy to duplicate.

451
00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:58,000
Speaker 3: So you have every Wednesday you do Sloppy Joe's. Every

452
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:02,080
Speaker 3: you know, Tuesday you doaghetti and meatballs or whatever. But

453
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:05,800
Speaker 3: I mean it is really just the lowest quality. And

454
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:08,880
Speaker 3: there's been many times that I've heard from kids that

455
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:12,159
Speaker 3: they just got rice and beans, or that they got

456
00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:15,320
Speaker 3: food that was spoiled or milk that had been sitting

457
00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:18,520
Speaker 3: out and was chunky and gross. So even though technically

458
00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:21,280
Speaker 3: they may be serving this to the kids, I think

459
00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:24,600
Speaker 3: the bigger question is really how edible is it and

460
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:28,120
Speaker 3: is it ultimately making them sick? Which we talk about

461
00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:30,480
Speaker 3: that in one of our episodes related to a facility

462
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:34,280
Speaker 3: that was in actually Jamaica that was pretty horrific.

463
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:37,399
Speaker 2: So this is happening all over the world, not just

464
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,080
Speaker 2: in the States.

465
00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:43,000
Speaker 3: Well, so this is actually probably one of the most

466
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:46,639
Speaker 3: interesting parts. So in this last season we cover an

467
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:51,560
Speaker 3: organization called WASP and that is the Worldwide Association of

468
00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:58,520
Speaker 3: Specialty Programs and their goal. The owner his name was

469
00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:02,760
Speaker 3: Robert Litchfield. His main goal was to create the McDonald's

470
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:06,840
Speaker 3: of treatment so he wanted a company that he could franchise,

471
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:09,440
Speaker 3: and so he could set up all of these facilities

472
00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:11,640
Speaker 3: all over the place and kind of become the McDonald's

473
00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:15,840
Speaker 3: of the trouble team industry. And so he really branched

474
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:22,560
Speaker 3: out wide. He opened facilities in the Czech Republic, in Samoa, Jamaica,

475
00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:26,520
Speaker 3: a couple of facilities in Mexico, and then all throughout

476
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:30,760
Speaker 3: the US. But the interesting part about it is that

477
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:35,720
Speaker 3: usually these facilities abroad get shut down within a year

478
00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:40,199
Speaker 3: or two. Why and so I'll give you an example

479
00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:42,040
Speaker 3: of one, and again we talk about it this season.

480
00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:44,679
Speaker 3: So if you're listening to this and you're like, whoa, WHOA,

481
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:47,200
Speaker 3: I need to know what's happening, go listen to season two.

482
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:52,280
Speaker 3: So a facility of Mexico by the name of Casa

483
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:55,520
Speaker 3: by the Sea was kind of in like Insinata, Mexico,

484
00:27:56,440 --> 00:28:01,160
Speaker 3: just south of southern California. And you know, you look

485
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:04,680
Speaker 3: at these facilities and they look like prisons. They've got

486
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:08,159
Speaker 3: big walls around them, maybe some kind of barbed wire

487
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:12,480
Speaker 3: at the top, definitely bars on the windows, very very

488
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:15,040
Speaker 3: heavy doors. Kind of a lot of them are the

489
00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:19,800
Speaker 3: type that can like magnetize shut and so just the environment,

490
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:22,280
Speaker 3: you can kind of look and see this is not

491
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:25,639
Speaker 3: a normal school. This is not a typical boarding school.

492
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:30,919
Speaker 3: And so the Mexican government had been receiving reports the

493
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:33,399
Speaker 3: kids were being abused at this facility and that they

494
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:36,920
Speaker 3: were being held there against their will. And so one

495
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:42,840
Speaker 3: day they had raided the facility and the Mexican federalis

496
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:46,120
Speaker 3: come in with these big machine guns and they pretty

497
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:50,000
Speaker 3: much free all the kids. So the federalies come in

498
00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:53,600
Speaker 3: and they're like, oh, you're free. Run and you know,

499
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:55,080
Speaker 3: of course a lot of the kids are like, we're

500
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:57,000
Speaker 3: in the middle of Mexico. Where are we going to go?

501
00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:00,880
Speaker 3: Like we can't, you know, we're fourteen, fifteen, and sixteen

502
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:04,720
Speaker 3: years old. What are we going to do? And I

503
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:06,840
Speaker 3: won't give the whole story away, but some of them,

504
00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:10,200
Speaker 3: of course did what you would as a fifteen or

505
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:12,360
Speaker 3: sixteen year old, and they went to the cafeteria and

506
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:16,480
Speaker 3: they raided the fridges there, or they went and you know,

507
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:19,280
Speaker 3: some of them shaved their legs. I heard that was

508
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:22,040
Speaker 3: a big deal because they weren't allowed to do that.

509
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:22,800
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh.

510
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:29,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, And ultimately they ended up being escorted out of Mexico.

511
00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:33,800
Speaker 3: But they're that same situation has happened at many of

512
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:38,480
Speaker 3: these facilities that are abroad, and because I mean, quite frankly,

513
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:43,200
Speaker 3: what's happening is a human rights scandal and these foreign

514
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:46,840
Speaker 3: governments are seeing it, but here in America they've been

515
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:51,240
Speaker 3: allowed to thrive. So I think we have some reflection

516
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:54,440
Speaker 3: to do on ourselves as to why these facilities have

517
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:55,600
Speaker 3: been allowed to go on like that.

518
00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:57,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, and it's so I mean, I think a

519
00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:00,600
Speaker 2: lot of us that live in America would think the opposite.

520
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:03,320
Speaker 2: I would think in other countries maybe sometimes it's more overlooked,

521
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 2: but here it does seem very prevalent. And that is

522
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:09,960
Speaker 2: so scary because, like we started this podcast, I didn't

523
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:13,160
Speaker 2: even know this existed until I started listening to you guys,

524
00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 2: until Paris has been speaking out about this, and it's

525
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 2: so scary that it's been happening at such a big

526
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:22,000
Speaker 2: level for such a long time and no one even

527
00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:24,360
Speaker 2: knows it's happening like that just so wild to me.

528
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:28,400
Speaker 2: I want to talk about maybe how they're doing that,

529
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:30,720
Speaker 2: And I think a big part of it is the marketing,

530
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 2: because I even googled Provokanyon School because I was like,

531
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:36,360
Speaker 2: this place surely. I mean, first of all, it's still open,

532
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:40,840
Speaker 2: which is shocking to me, and I could not believe

533
00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:43,360
Speaker 2: that part. But I was like, how are people even

534
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:46,560
Speaker 2: still sending their kids to these kind of places? And

535
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:48,680
Speaker 2: then I read the one statement that they have the

536
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:51,520
Speaker 2: very first thing, like, if you google it, it says,

537
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:57,360
Speaker 2: Provocanyon School is recognized by multiple federal and state organizations

538
00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:01,640
Speaker 2: as intense psychiatric youth resident treatment center in Utah because

539
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:04,840
Speaker 2: of the depth of our professional clinical staff, medical staff,

540
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:10,080
Speaker 2: and our focus on evidence, evidence based clinical best practices. So, like,

541
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:12,840
Speaker 2: if you're a parent reading that and you're struggling with

542
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:16,680
Speaker 2: your teenager, and then you're looking at that statement behind

543
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:21,400
Speaker 2: all these like beautiful pictures of this part of Utah

544
00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:24,960
Speaker 2: that apparently the students don't even get to see, you

545
00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:27,480
Speaker 2: would think, Okay, this might be great. This might be

546
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:30,960
Speaker 2: a turnaround for my child, I would imagine, And so

547
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:33,640
Speaker 2: let's talk a little bit about the con they're putting

548
00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:36,800
Speaker 2: on the parents and then why like they will not

549
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:39,520
Speaker 2: let the kids even speak to their parents within at

550
00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:41,360
Speaker 2: least the first nine months. Is that right?

551
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:47,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, mostly that's very spot on, and so you know,

552
00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:51,760
Speaker 3: I think this is one of the saddest aspects of this,

553
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:56,320
Speaker 3: because you do have very well intentioned parents, yeah, who

554
00:31:56,400 --> 00:32:00,320
Speaker 3: are trying to make a difficult decision, and they do

555
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:04,920
Speaker 3: what they think is their due diligence in researching these facilities.

556
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:07,720
Speaker 3: But what I tried to emphasize, and I've talked to

557
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:09,960
Speaker 3: many parents, there was one I had gotten into a

558
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:15,360
Speaker 3: common battle with on Instagram and she was like, she

559
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:18,440
Speaker 3: was like, no, we did our research on the facility.

560
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:21,280
Speaker 3: It's a good one. And I'm like, but you don't

561
00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:24,719
Speaker 3: know that. And the reason why you don't know that

562
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 3: is because the information that you actually need to make

563
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:33,320
Speaker 3: that decision, like as a child died there, how many

564
00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:37,040
Speaker 3: incidents have there been this month? Right? And by incidents

565
00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:41,000
Speaker 3: that could be anything from someone you know, falling down

566
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:43,720
Speaker 3: the stairs and getting injured or a staff member like

567
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:46,800
Speaker 3: punching a student in the face, Right, you would want

568
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:50,440
Speaker 3: to know are those things happening? And that information is

569
00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:54,120
Speaker 3: just not public in many states. It is in a

570
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:56,320
Speaker 3: couple of states. But I think also as a parent,

571
00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:58,920
Speaker 3: you probably don't know where to go to find that information.

572
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:01,520
Speaker 3: It's buried. It's not something that they're just going to

573
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:04,360
Speaker 3: post on their website and say, hey, you know, we've

574
00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:10,280
Speaker 3: had three kids die at this facility, and so I think,

575
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:14,600
Speaker 3: you know, when you do your research, it's it's what

576
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:15,400
Speaker 3: you need to know is.

577
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:15,880
Speaker 2: Just not there.

578
00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:19,000
Speaker 3: It's just not available right now. And that's why one

579
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:22,160
Speaker 3: of the things that we're working on through policy change

580
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:25,400
Speaker 3: on our uh with our federal bill, the Stop Institutional

581
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:29,840
Speaker 3: Child Abuse Act, is we're working on reporting and transparency

582
00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:35,280
Speaker 3: because I have no doubt that residential care or inpatient

583
00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:39,520
Speaker 3: care or even you know, crisis management services, those are

584
00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:42,600
Speaker 3: going to be needed at some point or another, even

585
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:46,160
Speaker 3: if it's just for a short term stay. Uh. But

586
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:49,200
Speaker 3: even in that sort of short term setting, you're going

587
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:51,440
Speaker 3: to want to know that where your child is is safe,

588
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:56,400
Speaker 3: that it is truly therapeutic, and and you know that

589
00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:59,280
Speaker 3: your child's not going to walk away with a lifetime

590
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:03,880
Speaker 3: of trauma from their experience there. So you know, it's

591
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:07,320
Speaker 3: just tricky. You look at these websites and they're beautiful,

592
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:11,440
Speaker 3: the Provocanian websites gorgeous, and the pictures they have of

593
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:14,239
Speaker 3: the facility are like, wow, like this looks like a

594
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:16,120
Speaker 3: like I would want to go there, you know, this

595
00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:18,560
Speaker 3: looks like a tree, like a resort.

596
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:21,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, And so you.

597
00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:24,880
Speaker 3: Know, but then once you look back behind that facade

598
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:28,680
Speaker 3: all this like, you know, you see the actual treatment.

599
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:33,040
Speaker 3: And even at pro Vocanian school, there was a young girl.

600
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:35,680
Speaker 3: Oh I might butcher some of the facts on this,

601
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:38,760
Speaker 3: but this was generally what had happened. But I believe

602
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:42,960
Speaker 3: she was twelve years old and they had injected her

603
00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:50,640
Speaker 3: with a sedative seventeen times over the course of sixty days.

604
00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:54,799
Speaker 3: And so they call this it's called a chemical restraint.

605
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:59,000
Speaker 3: And so let's say you're in a heightened emotional state,

606
00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:03,479
Speaker 3: you're upset about something, you won't calm down. They can

607
00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:05,960
Speaker 3: pretty much sedate you and it will knock you out.

608
00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:10,759
Speaker 3: And I've seen people who cannot even walk after having

609
00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:13,280
Speaker 3: this kind of a sedation and oftentimes can't even open

610
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:15,840
Speaker 3: your own eyes. And it pretty much kind of you know,

611
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:18,760
Speaker 3: puts you in like a comatose state for about twenty

612
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:22,400
Speaker 3: four hours. So if you can imagine this happening to

613
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:26,479
Speaker 3: this young twelve year old girl every few days, she's

614
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:30,759
Speaker 3: being injected with this drug and then laying in her

615
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:36,360
Speaker 3: bed until she can, you know, walk again or ambulate again.

616
00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:41,120
Speaker 3: It's like, you know, to me, that's not treatment, that's

617
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:47,399
Speaker 3: not the therapy. And yeah, so many families really end

618
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:50,480
Speaker 3: up being fractured because the kids then blame the parents.

619
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:55,200
Speaker 3: Of course, sometimes the parents don't want to own up

620
00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:58,520
Speaker 3: to their part in it, which is hard. I can

621
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:00,680
Speaker 3: imagine as a parent it would be very, very hard

622
00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:02,960
Speaker 3: to make a choice like that for your child and

623
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:08,719
Speaker 3: then feel responsible. So it's an ongoing issue, and it's

624
00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:12,160
Speaker 3: something that affects every community, but it is especially sad,

625
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:15,239
Speaker 3: I think for parents who get fooled by that marketing

626
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:17,520
Speaker 3: and you know, they say all the right things. Of

627
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:23,000
Speaker 3: course you would want to believe them, of.

628
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:25,080
Speaker 2: Course, And I mean it's not like one of the

629
00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 2: things you'll talk about a lot is the big men

630
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:30,279
Speaker 2: that they have on staff, and so it's not like

631
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:32,480
Speaker 2: they're going to say, and that man over there that

632
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:35,040
Speaker 2: weighs three hundred pounds and is an ex military or

633
00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:37,719
Speaker 2: ex football player or whatever is going to tackle your

634
00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:41,239
Speaker 2: twelve year old daughter. Like you don't say things like

635
00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:44,360
Speaker 2: that to pitch why this would be a good school

636
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:47,360
Speaker 2: for them to send their child to. But that is

637
00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:49,719
Speaker 2: what's happening, And that was one of this I mean

638
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:51,920
Speaker 2: I cried listening to you guys talk about that part.

639
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:54,040
Speaker 2: And I'm sure this is really hard for you to

640
00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:57,439
Speaker 2: still talk about. But the parts of knowing when someone

641
00:36:57,480 --> 00:36:59,359
Speaker 2: had gone a little too far, and they have they

642
00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:01,480
Speaker 2: have a code that they'll call in on the phone,

643
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:04,040
Speaker 2: and then they make all the other students look away,

644
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:07,000
Speaker 2: so all you can hear is your friend being tackled

645
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:11,080
Speaker 2: to the ground and like restrained or then sent away

646
00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:15,480
Speaker 2: into solitary confinement. Is that what it's called? But naked?

647
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:18,640
Speaker 2: Like all of that is so violating to a human

648
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:23,120
Speaker 2: on so many levels. And I just can't really imagine

649
00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:26,480
Speaker 2: a parent being fully informed of those kind of practices

650
00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:28,680
Speaker 2: saying yes, sign my child up for that.

651
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:32,719
Speaker 3: Right never, I mean you never would and right it?

652
00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:35,719
Speaker 3: You know, so what they may tell the parents is like,

653
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:41,040
Speaker 3: you know, if your child is an immediate harm to

654
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:44,160
Speaker 3: themselves or someone else, we might put them in a

655
00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:48,440
Speaker 3: physical hold and until they are able to de escalate.

656
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:50,200
Speaker 3: And and you know, so they use all of this

657
00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:54,239
Speaker 3: terminology that you're thinking, No, that would make sense. Right

658
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:57,200
Speaker 3: my child is you know, actively going to harm themselves

659
00:37:57,320 --> 00:38:00,600
Speaker 3: or someone else. Hopefully someone would intervene. And I agree

660
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:03,520
Speaker 3: that there is a time and place for intervention, but

661
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:06,560
Speaker 3: what really happens with these staff members And I'll speak

662
00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:09,160
Speaker 3: from my own experience. Again, we cover this in season

663
00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:12,080
Speaker 3: two of Trapped in Treatment, But a lot of these

664
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:15,600
Speaker 3: staff members start to look at it almost like a sport,

665
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:19,200
Speaker 3: and I remembered they would so at my facility, they

666
00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:21,880
Speaker 3: had these walkie talkies. All the staff had walkie talkies.

667
00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:26,719
Speaker 3: And one night there was a friend of mine and

668
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:30,040
Speaker 3: she was kind of known for having a little bit

669
00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:32,520
Speaker 3: of an attitude, but she just didn't let people walk

670
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:34,919
Speaker 3: all over her, and that's something I still respect about

671
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:38,160
Speaker 3: her to this day. But a staff member had gotten

672
00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:44,600
Speaker 3: kinda snappy with her, and you know, they kind of

673
00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:48,000
Speaker 3: almost like dogpile, right, so it feels like you sorry.

674
00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:48,040
Speaker 2: Let me.

675
00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:50,960
Speaker 3: I hope what I'm saying is making sense. So staff

676
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:53,319
Speaker 3: members have a tendency to kind of bat kids into

677
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:58,239
Speaker 3: a corner, whether that be literally or figuratively, and so

678
00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:03,000
Speaker 3: sometimes kids would just lose it. And so this particular night,

679
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:06,160
Speaker 3: our dorm parent was kind of picking on her and

680
00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:08,600
Speaker 3: finally she gets up out of her seat and she

681
00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:10,839
Speaker 3: was like, I'm done doing this. I'm sick of this,

682
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:14,720
Speaker 3: Like stop, like, just leave me alone, and the dorm

683
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:18,200
Speaker 3: parent immediately picks up her walkie talkie and she radios

684
00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:21,560
Speaker 3: for backup staff, and we would have these I believe

685
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:24,560
Speaker 3: there were former hockey players, and a lot of them

686
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:27,400
Speaker 3: would be like former foot college football players or former

687
00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:29,640
Speaker 3: you know, hockey players. So like these are these are

688
00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:33,839
Speaker 3: big dudes, really big dudes, like corn fed. I don't

689
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:35,799
Speaker 3: know if that's still politically appropriate to say, but man,

690
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:40,000
Speaker 3: these are some big big yeah, big big guys. And uh,

691
00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:42,600
Speaker 3: you could just hear them just come like thundering down

692
00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:45,920
Speaker 3: the hallway, and you know, I think one of the

693
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:51,480
Speaker 3: worst parts is was actually not looking not that you

694
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:53,759
Speaker 3: wouldn't would want to see that, but if you're just

695
00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:57,920
Speaker 3: imagining listening to that happening, and you hear your friend

696
00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:01,640
Speaker 3: and she's screaming, you know, get off of me, and

697
00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:05,200
Speaker 3: and it just is really a violent thing. And so

698
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:11,279
Speaker 3: oftentimes they use physical restraint as a form of discipline

699
00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:14,880
Speaker 3: or as a form of correcting behavior than it is

700
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:19,880
Speaker 3: about keeping people safe. And you know, I just also

701
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:23,360
Speaker 3: feel like, isn't this a conundrum like why are we

702
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:26,480
Speaker 3: hurting someone because we're trying to prevent them from hurting themselves?

703
00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:30,719
Speaker 2: Like that doesn't what's the messaging there?

704
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:33,680
Speaker 3: Right? Like that? It just it does not make sense.

705
00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:38,800
Speaker 3: And so I look forward to a world in which

706
00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:42,040
Speaker 3: we can really approach kids in a much more therapeutic

707
00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:44,960
Speaker 3: way and and and not do things like physical restraint

708
00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:47,680
Speaker 3: or even you know. So now they call it seclusion

709
00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:51,720
Speaker 3: instead of solitary confinement, but the idea is really the same.

710
00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:53,960
Speaker 3: You're by yourself in a small space and you're not

711
00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:59,480
Speaker 3: allowed to leave. And I recently heard the story of

712
00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:04,920
Speaker 3: a young boy who has intellectual disabilities and he was

713
00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:08,200
Speaker 3: being left in a seclusion room all day, for eight

714
00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:12,799
Speaker 3: hours a day, and I believe he was only like

715
00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:17,080
Speaker 3: eight years old. And so just you know, right, like

716
00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:19,759
Speaker 3: as a mom, wouldn't your heart just be like I

717
00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:21,320
Speaker 3: just as would be out for men.

718
00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:24,719
Speaker 2: Well, it's also like anybody would go crazy. That's like,

719
00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:27,319
Speaker 2: it's like when you're talking about that girl too, she's

720
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:29,960
Speaker 2: being provoked by the dorm mom or is that whatever

721
00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:33,319
Speaker 2: you called her. I think that's a house mom. It's

722
00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:36,080
Speaker 2: that's reactive abuse. It's like I'm going to abuse you,

723
00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:38,600
Speaker 2: and then when you actually react to it, I'm gonna

724
00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:43,400
Speaker 2: physically abuse you. So it's like that isn't helping either,

725
00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:47,279
Speaker 2: because what message are you sending a child about bad

726
00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:51,040
Speaker 2: behavior or even like how to help them? There's no

727
00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:53,480
Speaker 2: help that I ever heard in any of this. It

728
00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:58,000
Speaker 2: was all like, let me turn you into a robot

729
00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:00,560
Speaker 2: kind of like what you said, instead of being a human.

730
00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:04,239
Speaker 2: And I do understand there's you know, behaviors that are

731
00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:07,560
Speaker 2: not acceptable, and especially as a teenager, like you're acting

732
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:09,680
Speaker 2: out and your parents can't control you in a way

733
00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:12,960
Speaker 2: that's harmful to everyone. Sure, I understand there needs to

734
00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:15,879
Speaker 2: be like certain measures taken, but I just don't hear

735
00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:18,960
Speaker 2: anything in the practices that they're using that seem that

736
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:21,920
Speaker 2: they would actually be helpful to me, like at all.

737
00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:25,759
Speaker 3: Right, And so so many people come out of these

738
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:31,800
Speaker 3: facilities completely traumatized, of course, and we end up on

739
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:34,799
Speaker 3: you know, unfortunately, we've lost a lot of people to suicide.

740
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:37,960
Speaker 3: We've lost a lot of people inside of the facilities,

741
00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:42,240
Speaker 3: and I would say there's even more kids who because

742
00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:45,480
Speaker 3: they feel like they can't function in the normal world anymore,

743
00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:48,440
Speaker 3: or they don't feel safe inside of their bodies, inside

744
00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:52,839
Speaker 3: of themselves, they end up turning to things like substances, right,

745
00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:56,680
Speaker 3: And so it's like we're just exacerbating the problem. Like

746
00:42:56,920 --> 00:43:00,800
Speaker 3: you know, I've always heard kind of in the recovery

747
00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:05,160
Speaker 3: space that you know, the opposite of addiction is not sobriety,

748
00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:09,399
Speaker 3: it's community. And so I think we need to take

749
00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:14,000
Speaker 3: that idea and put that towards our kids who are struggling. Right,

750
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:18,120
Speaker 3: we don't just ship you off to a facility states away,

751
00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:20,280
Speaker 3: but like, let's figure out how to build a bigger

752
00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:22,880
Speaker 3: support system for you, right, Like let's figure out how

753
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:25,759
Speaker 3: to really Yeah yeah, so I you know, I think

754
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:28,239
Speaker 3: we'll get there one day, but it's it feels like

755
00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:29,960
Speaker 3: it's very slow going sometimes.

756
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:33,080
Speaker 2: Well let's talk a little bit about that because I

757
00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:35,720
Speaker 2: don't really I said this earlier, but I don't understand

758
00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:39,239
Speaker 2: how Provo Canyon is still open, especially because of the

759
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:42,359
Speaker 2: platform that Paris Hilton has. You know, it's become such

760
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:45,480
Speaker 2: a big conversation and you guys have been meeting with

761
00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:49,000
Speaker 2: government officials. It's just like, why isn't it changing?

762
00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:55,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, so it I will say, it's a very complex issue, okay,

763
00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:57,400
Speaker 3: and it feels like it shouldn't be right. It's like,

764
00:43:57,560 --> 00:44:02,239
Speaker 3: just don't use kids, right, But they because they've kind

765
00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:06,680
Speaker 3: of positioned this type of methodology that they use in

766
00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:09,120
Speaker 3: these facilities as a form of treatment or a form

767
00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:12,960
Speaker 3: of therapy, and like I said, with physical restraints, they're

768
00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:16,600
Speaker 3: using that as a kind of intervention safety intervention, and

769
00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:19,640
Speaker 3: so it doesn't always seem or feel like it it

770
00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:26,879
Speaker 3: is outright violence, even though it is. And you know,

771
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:29,480
Speaker 3: so really what needs to happen in a lot of

772
00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:33,520
Speaker 3: these states is you have these licensing agencies like the

773
00:44:33,560 --> 00:44:36,960
Speaker 3: Department of Health and Human Services and a lot of

774
00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:42,640
Speaker 3: states it's just DHS or and and so these facilities

775
00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:46,279
Speaker 3: are often licensed by them, okay, and it is up

776
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:51,040
Speaker 3: to these agencies to then investigate these facilities when there's

777
00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:57,680
Speaker 3: been abuse. But part of the problem is that really

778
00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:01,080
Speaker 3: very few times that rebus that excuse me, that abuse

779
00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:05,360
Speaker 3: is actually leaving the facility walls, right, so the state

780
00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:07,480
Speaker 3: may never find out about it. And I'll give you

781
00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:12,720
Speaker 3: kind of an example. So Paris and our team eleven

782
00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:15,480
Speaker 3: to eleven Impact, we're working on a bill in Utah

783
00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:19,239
Speaker 3: called SB one twenty seven and this was back in

784
00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:22,560
Speaker 3: twenty twenty one, and this was our very first bill

785
00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:25,239
Speaker 3: that we passed, which I'm still very proud of. But

786
00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:30,680
Speaker 3: you know, Utah is kind of the hotbed of these facilities.

787
00:45:30,719 --> 00:45:33,919
Speaker 3: It's really like the epicenter of this industry, and they're

788
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:37,840
Speaker 3: located everywhere, but Utah just has an extraordinarily high number

789
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:40,879
Speaker 3: of these kinds of programs, and so we always thought

790
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:43,600
Speaker 3: Utah was going to be the last state that we

791
00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:45,879
Speaker 3: would get to pass a law, and then they ended

792
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:49,400
Speaker 3: up being our first. And so as we were just

793
00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:52,879
Speaker 3: looking at the law as it existed, we noticed that

794
00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:57,000
Speaker 3: facilities were only required to report critical incidents once a month.

795
00:45:57,840 --> 00:46:00,279
Speaker 3: So that means if something happened at the facility, they

796
00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:03,480
Speaker 3: didn't have to tell the state except for just once

797
00:46:03,480 --> 00:46:07,080
Speaker 3: a month. They would tell them everything that happened that month, supposedly.

798
00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:13,840
Speaker 3: And so I got into questioning the Office of Licensing

799
00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:16,200
Speaker 3: a little bit more and I asked them, well, how

800
00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:19,520
Speaker 3: do you define a critical incident? And they said, a

801
00:46:19,520 --> 00:46:24,680
Speaker 3: critical incident is anything that requires more than first aid?

802
00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:27,520
Speaker 3: So I want you to think about, like, what is that?

803
00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:31,040
Speaker 3: What does that mean? Right? So what requires more than

804
00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:34,200
Speaker 3: first aid? Would this be? And this is what I

805
00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:37,680
Speaker 3: asked them. I said, would that mean like hospitalization? And

806
00:46:37,719 --> 00:46:45,360
Speaker 3: they were like yes. So, you know, if if that's

807
00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:48,560
Speaker 3: the only thing that's being reported is when a child

808
00:46:48,640 --> 00:46:52,839
Speaker 3: requires hospitalization, I'm going to assume that there's a lot

809
00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:55,080
Speaker 3: of things that are happening in those facilities that were

810
00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:58,440
Speaker 3: never ever ever being told well.

811
00:46:58,239 --> 00:47:01,399
Speaker 2: Because also they're the ones deciding if it needs if

812
00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:05,239
Speaker 2: the child needs hospitalization, so they can just say no,

813
00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:10,040
Speaker 2: they don't even if they did. Exactly comes even scarier, actually.

814
00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:12,960
Speaker 3: Exactly and no, you're you are not wrong, because one

815
00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:15,960
Speaker 3: of the biggest causes of death in these facilities is

816
00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:19,399
Speaker 3: medical neglect. And so you have a child who says,

817
00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:22,399
Speaker 3: I need medical attention. Help me, I'm not feeling well,

818
00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:26,600
Speaker 3: something's wrong, and it's it's almost kind of textbook. The

819
00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:30,760
Speaker 3: facility every time will say, oh, you're just attention seeking,

820
00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:35,319
Speaker 3: you know, stop stop being a baby about it. Drink

821
00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:37,400
Speaker 3: some water, take some time, and all you'll be fine.

822
00:47:37,920 --> 00:47:42,480
Speaker 3: And on many occasions, those kids, unfortunately have passed away.

823
00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:47,279
Speaker 3: And so I mean, really preventable deaths. There was one

824
00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:51,040
Speaker 3: in Utah at a place called Diamond Ranch Academy, and

825
00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:53,880
Speaker 3: this girl had been throwing up for a week straight.

826
00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:58,719
Speaker 3: Her stomach was very distended, she was pale and clammy

827
00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:01,600
Speaker 3: and just did no. I mean you could visibly see

828
00:48:01,640 --> 00:48:04,920
Speaker 3: with your eyes. People that were there had reported that

829
00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:07,560
Speaker 3: you could see with your eyes that she was not okay,

830
00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:11,719
Speaker 3: and so she had requested medical attention. They told her

831
00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:13,839
Speaker 3: the same thing. She was just wanting to get out

832
00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:17,680
Speaker 3: of the facility. She was attention seeking and she was exaggerating,

833
00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:23,960
Speaker 3: and she ended up dying. And the medical examiner found

834
00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:28,680
Speaker 3: that she had sepsist and she had had in an

835
00:48:28,719 --> 00:48:31,960
Speaker 3: infection you know, that had gone untreated and really all

836
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:35,480
Speaker 3: that she needed was an antibiotic. Oh my god, she

837
00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:37,759
Speaker 3: was sixteen years old. She should still be here.

838
00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:45,000
Speaker 2: Well, it's like even when you're saying there's you know,

839
00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:47,200
Speaker 2: all these deaths that I'm like, why are there any deaths?

840
00:48:47,520 --> 00:48:50,799
Speaker 2: Like really at a school? Why is that happening? That's

841
00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:53,680
Speaker 2: like a big question to me that it's almost even

842
00:48:53,719 --> 00:48:56,400
Speaker 2: just in passing conversation that you're saying, well, then they

843
00:48:56,440 --> 00:48:58,800
Speaker 2: had to report this death or that death or whatever.

844
00:48:58,840 --> 00:49:00,919
Speaker 2: It's like, well, why is this even happening at all?

845
00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:04,600
Speaker 3: It's crazy. It's crazy to think about that. You know,

846
00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:07,279
Speaker 3: you send your child to a school and there's a

847
00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:11,520
Speaker 3: likelihood they might die. And I mean I think about

848
00:49:11,520 --> 00:49:14,760
Speaker 3: that in the terms though that of like as an adult,

849
00:49:15,480 --> 00:49:19,040
Speaker 3: if I were looking for a treatment for myself, maybe

850
00:49:19,040 --> 00:49:22,640
Speaker 3: I'm struggling with anxiety depression, would I even think about

851
00:49:22,680 --> 00:49:27,160
Speaker 3: are people dying at this facility? Like? Probably not? Right,

852
00:49:27,239 --> 00:49:28,799
Speaker 3: Like that's not going to be in the realm of

853
00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:31,359
Speaker 3: what we would even imagine is happening there because we're

854
00:49:31,600 --> 00:49:34,879
Speaker 3: there to get help. Why would that happen? So, yeah,

855
00:49:35,239 --> 00:49:38,680
Speaker 3: you're right, I mean, it is a very weird reality

856
00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:41,520
Speaker 3: that the industry has kind of just accepted that that's

857
00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:43,759
Speaker 3: a part of the work that they do.

858
00:49:45,080 --> 00:49:47,960
Speaker 2: What did your journey look like once you left the

859
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:51,600
Speaker 2: school that you attended? Did you have because I know

860
00:49:51,680 --> 00:49:54,480
Speaker 2: in part of season one as well, Paris interviews Kat Bondi,

861
00:49:54,600 --> 00:49:58,640
Speaker 2: who also went to I think Provo right, She yeah,

862
00:49:58,719 --> 00:50:01,200
Speaker 2: said so, and she talks about the journey of therapy

863
00:50:01,239 --> 00:50:04,040
Speaker 2: that she went to after this school that was supposed

864
00:50:04,080 --> 00:50:07,000
Speaker 2: to be therapeutic, And so I wondered, did you have

865
00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:09,960
Speaker 2: a similar experience of kind of unraveling the trauma of

866
00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:14,160
Speaker 2: the situation that you experienced or how has that looked after?

867
00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:21,080
Speaker 3: It took me years to finally recognize what had happened

868
00:50:21,120 --> 00:50:24,160
Speaker 3: to me, And because I had been at that program

869
00:50:24,200 --> 00:50:27,040
Speaker 3: for so long, you know, when I first started, I

870
00:50:27,080 --> 00:50:30,120
Speaker 3: really resisted the program. I was like, this place is crazy.

871
00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:33,760
Speaker 3: I don't like these people. Why are the staff members

872
00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:36,040
Speaker 3: yelling at us all day long? Like I hate it here?

873
00:50:36,160 --> 00:50:38,919
Speaker 3: Take me home. And I had been told so many

874
00:50:38,920 --> 00:50:42,600
Speaker 3: times by my mom that I'm not coming to get you.

875
00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:45,480
Speaker 3: You need to finish the program, So you need to

876
00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:47,839
Speaker 3: stop bringing this up, and you need to just get

877
00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:49,759
Speaker 3: on with your program and finish it so you can

878
00:50:49,800 --> 00:50:53,720
Speaker 3: come home. And so after two and a half years,

879
00:50:54,840 --> 00:50:56,600
Speaker 3: if you would have talked to me at the end

880
00:50:56,640 --> 00:50:59,280
Speaker 3: of my program, I would have told you the program

881
00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:03,160
Speaker 3: saved my life. It was the best thing ever. I

882
00:51:03,960 --> 00:51:08,719
Speaker 3: drank the tea. I fully believed that this place was

883
00:51:08,840 --> 00:51:10,960
Speaker 3: amazing and that it built me into who I was.

884
00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:17,600
Speaker 3: But yet, as I said, you know, after I got out,

885
00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:20,080
Speaker 3: I knew I didn't feel right in the world. I

886
00:51:20,120 --> 00:51:23,759
Speaker 3: knew I didn't feel right in my body. My relationship

887
00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:26,520
Speaker 3: with my mom was not any better, and in fact

888
00:51:26,920 --> 00:51:32,200
Speaker 3: was worse in a lot of ways, and so my

889
00:51:32,239 --> 00:51:34,480
Speaker 3: mom ended up kicking me out of the house. We

890
00:51:34,560 --> 00:51:36,759
Speaker 3: still had a lot of family dysfunction issues that just

891
00:51:36,800 --> 00:51:41,440
Speaker 3: were not dealt with at all. And so, you know,

892
00:51:41,480 --> 00:51:44,640
Speaker 3: it's wild now just looking at this time frame in hindsight,

893
00:51:44,680 --> 00:51:46,719
Speaker 3: But I left that facility when I was sixteen and

894
00:51:46,760 --> 00:51:48,919
Speaker 3: a half. My mom kicked me out of the house

895
00:51:48,960 --> 00:51:51,799
Speaker 3: when I was seventeen, and so I barely had like

896
00:51:51,840 --> 00:51:55,239
Speaker 3: any life skills out there in the world, having just

897
00:51:55,280 --> 00:52:00,520
Speaker 3: been released from this, you know, institution, and I had

898
00:52:00,719 --> 00:52:03,640
Speaker 3: the grit, luckily to kind of figure things out and

899
00:52:04,320 --> 00:52:06,480
Speaker 3: find my way in the world. But there was a

900
00:52:06,880 --> 00:52:11,600
Speaker 3: large part, i mean, I'm talking maybe a good seven

901
00:52:11,719 --> 00:52:18,480
Speaker 3: years of my life after that that it was experiencing homelessness,

902
00:52:19,040 --> 00:52:25,959
Speaker 3: substance use, and just struggling, struggling to find my way,

903
00:52:26,120 --> 00:52:29,880
Speaker 3: struggling to I mean truly just like living in poverty,

904
00:52:29,960 --> 00:52:32,719
Speaker 3: like all all of it just really horrific. And so

905
00:52:34,320 --> 00:52:38,240
Speaker 3: finally I went back to treatment, not at the place

906
00:52:38,280 --> 00:52:40,400
Speaker 3: that I had been within the trouble teen industry, but

907
00:52:40,400 --> 00:52:44,799
Speaker 3: as an adult truly found treatment. And I've now been

908
00:52:44,920 --> 00:52:50,400
Speaker 3: ten years in recovery and so thank you. And but

909
00:52:51,080 --> 00:52:53,160
Speaker 3: once I was in recovery, and you know, they kind

910
00:52:53,160 --> 00:52:55,200
Speaker 3: of they say that this is typically the pattern that

911
00:52:55,239 --> 00:52:58,759
Speaker 3: once you get really really stable in your recovery, you'll

912
00:52:58,760 --> 00:53:02,360
Speaker 3: start to unpack some trauma that you didn't know was there.

913
00:53:03,160 --> 00:53:06,440
Speaker 3: And that's what happened with me. I finally got very

914
00:53:06,520 --> 00:53:09,719
Speaker 3: very stable in my life many years into recovery, and

915
00:53:09,840 --> 00:53:13,880
Speaker 3: Paris had come out with her documentary and it just

916
00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:19,480
Speaker 3: it just ripped the band aid off. I mean, I

917
00:53:19,480 --> 00:53:21,759
Speaker 3: pulled out this big box that I have of all

918
00:53:21,960 --> 00:53:24,440
Speaker 3: the letters that I wrote home, every letter I had

919
00:53:24,440 --> 00:53:27,880
Speaker 3: ever received, all my journals, anything from that time of

920
00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:31,839
Speaker 3: my life, and I just kind of fell apart for

921
00:53:31,880 --> 00:53:37,839
Speaker 3: a few weeks. I was like, oh, no, oh. I

922
00:53:37,880 --> 00:53:41,640
Speaker 3: remembered the desperation I felt. I remembered the strip searches.

923
00:53:42,440 --> 00:53:52,200
Speaker 3: I remembered just the constantly being in this like punitive institution,

924
00:53:53,120 --> 00:53:56,719
Speaker 3: and I actually really didn't know how to deal with

925
00:53:56,800 --> 00:54:00,840
Speaker 3: it because it was too much to unpack by myself.

926
00:54:02,360 --> 00:54:05,080
Speaker 3: But really, where I've been able to channel a lot

927
00:54:05,120 --> 00:54:08,200
Speaker 3: of that is into, of course, making sure that this

928
00:54:08,280 --> 00:54:12,359
Speaker 3: doesn't happen to other families. My mom now will tell

929
00:54:12,400 --> 00:54:15,600
Speaker 3: you that it was the biggest regret of her life,

930
00:54:16,160 --> 00:54:19,360
Speaker 3: and she would do anything to do it differently, but

931
00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:22,640
Speaker 3: you know, it's a choice she can't undo, and so

932
00:54:22,719 --> 00:54:26,080
Speaker 3: I just hope other families don't go through what we did.

933
00:54:26,719 --> 00:54:30,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was going to be how I ended this anyway,

934
00:54:30,600 --> 00:54:32,719
Speaker 2: But you just so eloquently said, I love that you

935
00:54:32,760 --> 00:54:34,960
Speaker 2: turn your pain into purpose. I always am just such

936
00:54:35,000 --> 00:54:38,800
Speaker 2: a big advocate for that, So I really really suggest

937
00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:40,920
Speaker 2: to you guys, go listen to Trapped in Treatment. It

938
00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:43,360
Speaker 2: was having you said, I'm so informed. It's because I

939
00:54:43,400 --> 00:54:47,520
Speaker 2: couldn't stop listening. It's so it was just so I say, fascinating,

940
00:54:47,520 --> 00:54:50,440
Speaker 2: but that doesn't even feel right because it is sad

941
00:54:50,600 --> 00:54:53,759
Speaker 2: and it's it's so stressful to me that kids are

942
00:54:53,800 --> 00:54:57,359
Speaker 2: still going through this as we speak. But I love

943
00:54:57,440 --> 00:55:00,359
Speaker 2: that you guys are uncovering that and just even giving

944
00:55:00,400 --> 00:55:03,160
Speaker 2: a name to this industry because if it's going to

945
00:55:03,280 --> 00:55:06,040
Speaker 2: exist in some capacity, it has to change. I fully,

946
00:55:06,120 --> 00:55:09,040
Speaker 2: fully believe that. So you guys, go listen to the podcast.

947
00:55:09,080 --> 00:55:11,960
Speaker 2: I'm gonna put the link to that in the description

948
00:55:12,040 --> 00:55:15,000
Speaker 2: of this podcast. Also that this is Paris documentary does

949
00:55:15,000 --> 00:55:18,640
Speaker 2: a really good job of kind of describing some of

950
00:55:18,680 --> 00:55:20,799
Speaker 2: the trauma. And you'll know, if you're a fan of

951
00:55:20,800 --> 00:55:23,520
Speaker 2: Paris Hilton, that's always a really good It was an

952
00:55:23,520 --> 00:55:29,080
Speaker 2: interesting take seeing her from that space, which is totally different. Yeah,

953
00:55:29,360 --> 00:55:34,000
Speaker 2: totally different. So yeah, I do suggest doing that as well.

954
00:55:34,040 --> 00:55:36,040
Speaker 2: But do you have anywhere else that you would say

955
00:55:36,200 --> 00:55:38,600
Speaker 2: to the listeners to go check out or where can

956
00:55:38,600 --> 00:55:40,120
Speaker 2: they keep up with you? Things like that?

957
00:55:40,800 --> 00:55:46,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely connect with me on Instagram. I post every

958
00:55:46,200 --> 00:55:49,160
Speaker 3: you'll you'll hear see everything that we're working on, what

959
00:55:49,200 --> 00:55:52,560
Speaker 3: we're doing, our trips to DC, how to get involved

960
00:55:52,600 --> 00:55:55,680
Speaker 3: with any of our policy work. And so my personal

961
00:55:55,719 --> 00:56:01,680
Speaker 3: Instagram handle is Caroline dot Alex dot cole c l E.

962
00:56:02,239 --> 00:56:04,520
Speaker 3: And then one more place that you can plug in

963
00:56:04,880 --> 00:56:08,360
Speaker 3: and this was really more focused specifically towards our policy

964
00:56:08,400 --> 00:56:14,000
Speaker 3: work is stop Institutional child Abuse dot com. It's a

965
00:56:14,160 --> 00:56:17,280
Speaker 3: very long website name, and so I'm like, going forward,

966
00:56:17,280 --> 00:56:19,799
Speaker 3: I will never name a website that long again, but

967
00:56:19,960 --> 00:56:25,920
Speaker 3: stop Institutional child abuse dot com and sign up to

968
00:56:25,920 --> 00:56:30,200
Speaker 3: stay engaged with us. We frequently do outreach within our

969
00:56:30,680 --> 00:56:33,920
Speaker 3: newsletter and like, if you want to get involved and

970
00:56:34,000 --> 00:56:36,600
Speaker 3: you hear these stories and you're just moved to want

971
00:56:36,640 --> 00:56:39,600
Speaker 3: to make change, we would love love to have you

972
00:56:39,680 --> 00:56:40,799
Speaker 3: join us and follow us.

973
00:56:41,480 --> 00:56:43,480
Speaker 2: I will put also all of that in the description

974
00:56:43,520 --> 00:56:46,160
Speaker 2: of this podcast. Caroline, Thank you so much, so appreciate

975
00:56:46,160 --> 00:56:46,719
Speaker 2: you being here.

976
00:56:47,239 --> 00:56:49,719
Speaker 3: Thank you, Kelly. It's been so fun talking to you

977
00:56:49,800 --> 00:56:53,520
Speaker 3: about this fun and hopefully not as heavy to our

978
00:56:53,560 --> 00:56:55,880
Speaker 3: listeners because like you said, I mean, it really is

979
00:56:55,920 --> 00:56:58,919
Speaker 3: about turning our pain into purpose and we've been able

980
00:56:58,920 --> 00:56:59,920
Speaker 3: to make strides forward.

981
00:57:00,120 --> 00:57:02,800
Speaker 2: So thank you so much. For having me here. Of course,

982
00:57:02,800 --> 00:57:03,760
Speaker 2: thank you guys for listening.

983
00:57:04,120 --> 00:57:07,120
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to The Velvet's Edge podcast with Kelly Henderson,

984
00:57:07,280 --> 00:57:09,799
Speaker 1: where we believe everyone has a little velvet in a

985
00:57:09,840 --> 00:57:14,000
Speaker 1: little edge. Subscribe for more conversations on life, style, beauty

986
00:57:14,040 --> 00:57:20,280
Speaker 1: and relationships. Search Velvet's Edge wherever you get your podcasts.