1 00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Mollie John Fast and this is Fast Politics, 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:07,160 Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of 3 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:12,040 Speaker 1: today's best minds. And Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy says a 4 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:16,320 Speaker 1: government shutdown would be a self defeating for the GOP, but. 5 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:19,720 Speaker 2: Doesn't he know self defeating is kind of their thing. 6 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:23,400 Speaker 1: The Guardians Margaret Sullivan stops by to talk about how 7 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:25,840 Speaker 1: the media should cover Trump and. 8 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:28,200 Speaker 2: This twenty twenty four election cycle. 9 00:00:28,640 --> 00:00:31,800 Speaker 1: Then we'll talk to The New York Times David Leonhard 10 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:35,040 Speaker 1: about Mitt Romney's retirement and what it means for the 11 00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:38,159 Speaker 1: future of the GOP. But first we have the host 12 00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:42,400 Speaker 1: of the Enemy's List, fan favorite and my friend the 13 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:47,840 Speaker 1: Lincoln Projects, Rick Wilson. Welcome back to Fast Politics, Rick Wilson. 14 00:00:47,640 --> 00:00:50,080 Speaker 3: Molli, John Fast, aliy To'll be with you as always. 15 00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:56,160 Speaker 1: I almost want to read you the horrendous headline from 16 00:00:56,760 --> 00:00:59,200 Speaker 1: a reputable newspaper. I'm not even gonna say which one, 17 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:03,720 Speaker 1: because I just you know, sometimes newspaper or straight news 18 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:04,440 Speaker 1: gets it wrong. 19 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 2: But I'm going to read to you. 20 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:11,720 Speaker 1: And you're gonna explain why this is so. Why we're 21 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 1: all going to drive the car off the road. And 22 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:20,000 Speaker 1: that's the best case scenario, like in fucking credible Stuff, 23 00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:25,600 Speaker 1: a straight newspaper says, double blow of inquiry and Sen's 24 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:27,920 Speaker 1: indictment create tough stretch for Biden. 25 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:32,520 Speaker 3: Discuss it all proves the case that the universe inevitably 26 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 3: devolves towards the New York Times pitchpot. Yeah, even these, 27 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 3: I'll look, I'm gonna be really direct about what's underneath 28 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:42,400 Speaker 3: it all the desperation for an actual horse race in 29 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:46,320 Speaker 3: twenty twenty four. And that's why, for months on end, 30 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:50,760 Speaker 3: even though every serious political reporter in this country knew 31 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:53,880 Speaker 3: there was not going to be a Democratic challenger that 32 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 3: emerged against Joe Biden. RFK Junior doesn't count, and there 33 00:01:57,880 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 3: was never gonna be a serious Republican challenger to Donald Trump, 34 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:05,680 Speaker 3: which I was telling people two years ago, thank you 35 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:10,480 Speaker 3: very much. They desperately want the drama, the intrigue, the 36 00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 3: loud noises, the mutant hellscape of Mad Max, of people 37 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:17,320 Speaker 3: racing across the desert in trucks and catching shit on fire. 38 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 3: They desperately wanted it, and I get it, Okay, I 39 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:23,320 Speaker 3: understand it. That's the default position of the American political 40 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:26,440 Speaker 3: narrative is we want loud noises. The problem with all 41 00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:28,720 Speaker 3: these things is that we have a set of perverse 42 00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 3: incentives even inside the non MAGA media, but we have 43 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:36,000 Speaker 3: on the Magamedia side a cent of perverse incentives to 44 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:40,280 Speaker 3: keep driving people out of their freaking minds by saying, 45 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:43,760 Speaker 3: my god, huns a Biden. He may face walk crimes 46 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:46,839 Speaker 3: on the Hague. You know, all the crazy shit. It's 47 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 3: just part of their economic model, as which as I 48 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:53,800 Speaker 3: wish it was different, it's just not. It's crappy, it's horrible, 49 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 3: it's stupid. It is the environment we live in. I 50 00:02:57,520 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 3: don't know how to fix it, obviously, and I wish 51 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:03,520 Speaker 3: people could step back for a minute and reset, But 52 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:05,360 Speaker 3: I don't see any motivation to do it, do you. 53 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:08,080 Speaker 1: Well, I mean, let's pause for a second and talk 54 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:09,840 Speaker 1: about what is really going on here. 55 00:03:09,919 --> 00:03:12,520 Speaker 2: Right. This is Steve Bannon flooding. The zone was shit 56 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 2: one hundred percent. 57 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 1: Now, whether or not we got there because Trump wanted 58 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:23,480 Speaker 1: McCarthy to impeach Biden because he was mad that he 59 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 1: had gotten impeached, which is one reason why we might 60 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:29,040 Speaker 1: have gotten here, or another way we got here was 61 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:33,600 Speaker 1: that McCarthy is weak and in trouble, and it has 62 00:03:33,639 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 1: a one person motion to vacate and is scared of 63 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:39,880 Speaker 1: his caucus, so he did the impeachment again as a 64 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:44,280 Speaker 1: faustian bargain to avoid shutdown, which, by the way, is 65 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:46,680 Speaker 1: not going to work because McCarthy is terrible at this. 66 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:49,600 Speaker 1: Whether we got there this way or that way, the 67 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:52,560 Speaker 1: result is still the same, which is that the zone 68 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:54,400 Speaker 1: is now completely flooded with shit. 69 00:03:54,760 --> 00:03:55,880 Speaker 2: And when you talk to a. 70 00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:58,760 Speaker 1: Trump or they're going to say, yeah, our guy was impeached, 71 00:03:58,760 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 1: but your guy was impeached. 72 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:02,400 Speaker 3: All of these things can be true at one time, 73 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:06,320 Speaker 3: and you're correctly pointing out, yes, Kevin is doing this 74 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:11,280 Speaker 3: because Heaven wants, more than life itself to have this, 75 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:14,720 Speaker 3: the fancy office and the security detail and the portrait 76 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:17,599 Speaker 3: on the wall, and the title of speaker. And if 77 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:19,680 Speaker 3: someone said to him, hey, you have to kill your 78 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:22,159 Speaker 3: dog in public, he would do it to home. 79 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:24,760 Speaker 2: No question. He'd be eating that dog. 80 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:27,680 Speaker 3: He would eat that dog live in public. He would 81 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 3: skin it, eat it where it's fur for a hat. 82 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:35,719 Speaker 3: This guy does not believe in anything other than holding 83 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:39,599 Speaker 3: that office. And I spoke to a private equity person. 84 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 3: Let's say, well, we're technically real estate, but private equity 85 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:45,800 Speaker 3: close enough. A big, big, big Republican donor who literally 86 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:47,760 Speaker 3: still makes the argument says, well, I've talked to Kevin. 87 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:50,400 Speaker 3: He's just keeping the crazies at Bay. I'm like, in 88 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:53,040 Speaker 3: what fucking way is he keeping the crazy at Bay? 89 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:55,280 Speaker 2: Well, he thinks he's creeping in. 90 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:58,119 Speaker 3: What way does he think? Like saying, well, bring the motion, 91 00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:02,360 Speaker 3: mad fuck you? That changes that. He's doing everything that 92 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:05,599 Speaker 3: Matt Gets and Marjorie Taylor Green and Jim Jordan and 93 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:10,040 Speaker 3: Bobert and Andy Biggs and Paul Gosar want. He's doing 94 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:13,960 Speaker 3: the entire agenda of chaos and bullshit that they crave 95 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:17,360 Speaker 3: every day, and so to hold power, he will burn 96 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:20,200 Speaker 3: this country to the ground. They know the impeachment will 97 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:23,160 Speaker 3: go nowhere. You and I both know the impeachment will. 98 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:26,359 Speaker 2: Go ken Buck, right republic. 99 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:28,719 Speaker 3: Ken ken Buck not exactly a member of the squad. 100 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 1: Right ken Buck from a very very red part of Colorado, 101 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:35,960 Speaker 1: who has now already been threatened with a primary challenge 102 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:39,000 Speaker 1: for not chatting the fuck up. That guy says there's 103 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:41,119 Speaker 1: no proof. I mean, the reality is there's no proof 104 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:44,960 Speaker 1: the impeachment. Okay, like you'll expect a bunch of partisan 105 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:49,520 Speaker 1: hacks to be partisan hacks. Fine, the federal weapons charges 106 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:54,040 Speaker 1: against Hunter Biden is a genuine failing on. 107 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:58,280 Speaker 2: The part of the government. I mean, come on. 108 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:01,960 Speaker 1: Like, obviously the fucking guy does not deserve a FED 109 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:03,279 Speaker 1: I mean, it's just ridiculous. 110 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:05,920 Speaker 2: I mean it is so like there are ten times in. 111 00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 1: History when a federal weapons charge has been. 112 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:12,040 Speaker 3: Look, as you know, I know more about the federal 113 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:14,040 Speaker 3: firearms regulatory structure. 114 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 2: Yes, then probably you should, but that's because you own 115 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:17,880 Speaker 2: a small. 116 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:19,800 Speaker 3: Arsenal probably than any other human being. 117 00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:21,880 Speaker 2: You know, yes, hopefully. 118 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:25,040 Speaker 3: When Hunter Biden filed his forty four to seventy three, 119 00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:28,520 Speaker 3: which is a form used under the federal background check system. So, 120 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:30,840 Speaker 3: by the way, let's start right there. He wasn't trying 121 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:34,120 Speaker 3: to like illegally obtain a gun on the black market. 122 00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 3: He went to a firearms dealer, filed the federal background 123 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:41,640 Speaker 3: check form. Whatever the presumption was about his current legal 124 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 3: status is where he went wrong on this. So he 125 00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 3: made a either deliberate or accidental mistake in the filing. 126 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:52,240 Speaker 3: And let me tell you something, unless you're a hardened career, 127 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:57,080 Speaker 3: multi charge, long term felon, you're not going to catch 128 00:06:57,120 --> 00:06:59,320 Speaker 3: a federal charge on that. You know, what they're gonna do. 129 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:01,600 Speaker 3: They've got to rid your nick's form. They're going to 130 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 3: come back and go, no, you can't have the gun. 131 00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:07,040 Speaker 3: That's how it works. Most firearms transactions are done just 132 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:09,520 Speaker 3: like that. You fill out a form and it says, 133 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 3: have I renounced my American citizenship? Are you currently engaged 134 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:15,280 Speaker 3: in filitia sect to all this stuff? Right? No one 135 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:18,320 Speaker 3: gets charged under this, No one. There are hundreds of 136 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 3: thousands of these forms every year. And here's the thing, 137 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 3: there are millions of them filed every year. The vast 138 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 3: majority of gun purchases go through the system. Hunter Biden, 139 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:30,680 Speaker 3: for whatever reason, they're now saying, Wow, this is like 140 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:33,960 Speaker 3: somebody's who's like filing the serial numbers off of glocks 141 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 3: and selling them off out of the back of his car. No, 142 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 3: it's not the same. It is an overreach. I'd like 143 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 3: to know what the MAGA explanation is, because I heard 144 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:45,000 Speaker 3: that government was weaponized and was totally there stacked in 145 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:47,680 Speaker 3: favor of the Bidens, that nothing ever happened to them. 146 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:51,080 Speaker 3: I heard that a couple of times. Now I may 147 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:54,720 Speaker 3: be wrong, but I'm guessing catching a federal felony charge 148 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:58,120 Speaker 3: is not something that most people imagine we be delivered 149 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:01,480 Speaker 3: to the Bobolin crime family if the federal government was 150 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:02,840 Speaker 3: so in fucking pocket. 151 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:06,200 Speaker 2: It is so shockingly fucked up. 152 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:09,600 Speaker 3: Somebody at DOJ, if you tried to bring this charge 153 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:13,360 Speaker 3: as a general rule, somebody would go, the fuck is 154 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:14,960 Speaker 3: wrong with you? This is not going to be the 155 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:18,160 Speaker 3: highest and best use of federal prosecutorial time and effort. 156 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 3: But here we are. 157 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 2: So are you saying the merit Garland Justice Department that 158 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:28,280 Speaker 2: refused to prosecute Trump after January sixth, is now making 159 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:30,840 Speaker 2: a mistake with its charges against Hunter Biden. 160 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:33,480 Speaker 3: I know you'll find this shocking. Other people will find 161 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 3: this shocking too, But a lot of people in the 162 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:39,640 Speaker 3: FBI and the DOJ, yes. 163 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:43,240 Speaker 2: It can't be. Don't not true. 164 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:46,040 Speaker 3: I was told that the New York FBI Field office 165 00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:49,360 Speaker 3: was chock full of liberals and activists who love AOC 166 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 3: in America. Exactly. 167 00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:56,080 Speaker 1: We're just going to look at solid facts of like 168 00:08:56,120 --> 00:09:00,480 Speaker 1: the Justice Department fucking around with democratic candidates. I will 169 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:03,280 Speaker 1: remind you of the James Coomy October surprise. 170 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:06,560 Speaker 2: Yes, indeed, but of course he's apologized for that. 171 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 3: So yes, we have a track record of the Justice 172 00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 3: Department not making the best calls around election season. But 173 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:16,280 Speaker 3: here we are, and look, Molly, this is part and 174 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 3: parcel of a broad Republican strategy at Steve Bannon, then 175 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 3: the ship flooding, and to make morally equivalent in the 176 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:29,400 Speaker 3: most absurd way, the idea that Joe Biden is somehow 177 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:32,240 Speaker 3: corrupt in the head of the Biden crime family, which 178 00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:35,480 Speaker 3: is like the ends of twenty twenty four. And they 179 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:38,480 Speaker 3: do it because Donald Trump is a goddamn criminal. They 180 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 3: do it because Donald Trump is facing ninety one charges 181 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:45,959 Speaker 3: in four separate indictments and more to come. Because he's 182 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:49,760 Speaker 3: a criminal who persists in criming, because he's a criminal 183 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:54,199 Speaker 3: who persists in attempting to retake power in the country. 184 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:56,480 Speaker 3: The idea here to make them equivalent, so they could 185 00:09:56,480 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 3: say whoa Trump was indicted and Saul was Biden's son 186 00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:01,040 Speaker 3: for laptop and. 187 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:03,360 Speaker 2: Out and out right, it's basically the same. 188 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:06,520 Speaker 3: The madness of this should be evident to anybody who 189 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:08,120 Speaker 3: draws air into their lungs. 190 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:14,160 Speaker 1: With the exception of the mainstream media, let's talk about where. 191 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:15,280 Speaker 2: We're going to go now. 192 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 3: We will both sides ourselves to fucking death in this country. 193 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to talk for two seconds about what 194 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:25,120 Speaker 1: Republicans have done here very successfully, which is working the rafts. 195 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:27,520 Speaker 2: Right. This is the result of working the rafts. 196 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:31,000 Speaker 1: This is a Justice Department that's worried that it looks 197 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:34,440 Speaker 1: too liberal. Talk to us about what it means to 198 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:35,440 Speaker 1: work the rafts. 199 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:39,400 Speaker 3: This is the secret weapon of the Republican Party. Not 200 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:42,640 Speaker 3: only for the last five or ten years, but this 201 00:10:42,760 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 3: started back in the nineteen sixties during the Johnson administration 202 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:50,559 Speaker 3: when a couple of Republicans. Back then they were millionaires, 203 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:53,520 Speaker 3: because back then a millionaire meant something. Today they'd be billionaires, 204 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:56,400 Speaker 3: and they are funded by billionaires today. This infrastructure, the 205 00:10:56,440 --> 00:11:01,079 Speaker 3: Brent Bozell infrastructure, the right wing media, you know, screechers 206 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:05,320 Speaker 3: and howlers, claiming that anytime someone reports on something, it 207 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:08,800 Speaker 3: displays liberal bias, and you must kill the liberal bias. 208 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:14,080 Speaker 3: And so these people work very carefully, very methodically. They're 209 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:18,880 Speaker 3: constantly on the phone. They never ever ever stop hauling 210 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:21,520 Speaker 3: and say that's unfair. I may not be as far 211 00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:24,800 Speaker 3: right as Steve Bannon, but that's unfair that you're treating 212 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:27,320 Speaker 3: us like second class citizens, and we have a right. 213 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:32,280 Speaker 3: They will use the media's rules, they will use institutional rules. 214 00:11:32,320 --> 00:11:37,439 Speaker 3: They will use society's rules to absolutely burn the building down. 215 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:40,080 Speaker 3: It's like, in fairness, you have to sell me the 216 00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:42,360 Speaker 3: gasoline to pour throughout this building so I can set 217 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:45,320 Speaker 3: it on fire. And that's what they do, because, believe me, 218 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:49,960 Speaker 3: the end state for journalism is not hey buddy, we're 219 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:51,800 Speaker 3: all going to play it straight up the middle. The 220 00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:54,720 Speaker 3: end state for journalism under Steve Bannon is you have 221 00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:57,079 Speaker 3: to have a license to be a journalist, and you're 222 00:11:57,080 --> 00:11:59,240 Speaker 3: going to report what we want you to report. They 223 00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:01,800 Speaker 3: should not think of this as in the future. Ask oh, 224 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:04,480 Speaker 3: it'll be like going back to regular bush. No, it'll 225 00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:06,520 Speaker 3: be like going into a RAQ and being in the 226 00:12:06,559 --> 00:12:09,200 Speaker 3: bath party and getting a license to have a newspaper 227 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:11,920 Speaker 3: and getting a license to be a reporter. The natural 228 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:14,560 Speaker 3: outcome is not the guys you see in DC, guys 229 00:12:14,559 --> 00:12:16,560 Speaker 3: who used to be like me, Like a lot of 230 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:19,600 Speaker 3: Republican consults in DC. They take reporters out to dinner, 231 00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:22,200 Speaker 3: they buy them drinks, they do the thing, and it's like, hey, buddy, 232 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:24,720 Speaker 3: you know, we're the normal ones, Tory man, We're cool, 233 00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:27,960 Speaker 3: and they are in service to a movement and a 234 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:31,439 Speaker 3: guy who would literally put them in prison camps if 235 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:33,480 Speaker 3: he got his way. And that's the fact. Not all 236 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 3: the Republicans who are spending the press know that or 237 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:38,840 Speaker 3: say that. But listen to what Trump says. He always 238 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:40,880 Speaker 3: tells you what he will do. When he says he'll 239 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:43,560 Speaker 3: put his political opponents in prison camps, that's what he'll do. 240 00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:46,640 Speaker 2: That's what he means. 241 00:12:48,640 --> 00:12:51,440 Speaker 1: Margaret Sullivan is a columnist at The Guardian and author 242 00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:57,160 Speaker 1: of Newsroom Confidential. Welcome back to Fast Politics, Margaret Sullivan. 243 00:12:57,360 --> 00:12:58,040 Speaker 4: Thank you, Mollie. 244 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:02,160 Speaker 5: I enjoy being on your fantastic podcast, and I always 245 00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 5: enjoyed speaking with you, even if the. 246 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:05,520 Speaker 2: Subject is rather grim. 247 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:09,920 Speaker 1: Sometimes I have friends where I hesitate to emotionally blackmail 248 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:12,480 Speaker 1: them to do something with me, but on this case 249 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:15,040 Speaker 1: I had to because. 250 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:15,840 Speaker 2: I sent you. 251 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:17,720 Speaker 1: You know, I always send you what strikes me as 252 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:23,720 Speaker 1: like a grievous medium malpractice. And today there was a doozy, 253 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:30,120 Speaker 1: which was this Washington Post title of how Biden's son 254 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:33,800 Speaker 1: is charged with three counts of federal weapons possession and 255 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:37,200 Speaker 1: not filling out the form right and he's also being 256 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:41,160 Speaker 1: impeached by the Speaker of the House, Kevin McCarthy. Because 257 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:44,680 Speaker 1: Kevin McCarthy is quite worried about a government shutdown and 258 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:47,880 Speaker 1: he can't control his caucus. But the sort of headline 259 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:51,199 Speaker 1: we saw was just this really gross kind of both 260 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:53,600 Speaker 1: sides saying like Biden's gonna have a tough time now. 261 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:55,240 Speaker 2: And I sent it to you and I. 262 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:57,160 Speaker 1: Was like, we got to get Margaret on here. So 263 00:13:57,400 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 1: I feel like this is a nine to one one year. 264 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:02,720 Speaker 5: Margaret, Right, And just to tell you and your listeners 265 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:06,520 Speaker 5: exactly what those words were in the posts, double blows 266 00:14:06,679 --> 00:14:10,720 Speaker 5: of inquiry and Son's indictment create tough stretch for Biden. 267 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:13,760 Speaker 4: So this is a case in which those that is. 268 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:17,000 Speaker 5: True, I mean that is literally true, but it also 269 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:21,080 Speaker 5: is misleading and it lacks context. And so my big 270 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 5: thing is that if we're going to tell the truth 271 00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:27,000 Speaker 5: and not be neutral, and I was happy to hear 272 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:31,200 Speaker 5: Chris jan amenpor put it so so succinctly this week, 273 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:35,520 Speaker 5: be truthful, not neutral, then that kind of headline is 274 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 5: not helpful, and it's harmful because it creates a situation 275 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:41,920 Speaker 5: that lacks context and is misleading. 276 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:42,360 Speaker 2: Right. 277 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:45,600 Speaker 1: I think that's a really good point. So let's talk 278 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:50,480 Speaker 1: about where we are, because like twenty fifteen, that election 279 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:56,440 Speaker 1: was shaped by I think three words, but her emails. Right, 280 00:14:56,920 --> 00:15:02,480 Speaker 1: So the idea was trumpad Trump's he had allegations of 281 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:04,840 Speaker 1: sexual misconduct, he had this, he had that, he had 282 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:10,520 Speaker 1: tape of him talking about grabbing women, and yet the 283 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 1: constant refrain in the mainstream media was about her emails. 284 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:14,520 Speaker 3: Right. 285 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:19,200 Speaker 5: It was this sort of endless effort to equalize Clinton's 286 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:24,600 Speaker 5: dubious practices on her emails. It wasn't ideal with Trump's 287 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:28,920 Speaker 5: incredible list of things that should have disqualified for him 288 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:32,520 Speaker 5: as president. And so this one piece was blown out 289 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:37,360 Speaker 5: of proportion constantly and with very terrible timing. And when 290 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:42,280 Speaker 5: Komi started up his investigation again at the FBI and 291 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:45,800 Speaker 5: all of Trump's stuff which we knew about, but somehow 292 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 5: he was so distracting and so entertaining and so compelling 293 00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:52,640 Speaker 5: and a ratings machine that these things got equalized. 294 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:54,240 Speaker 4: And then guess what, he got elected. 295 00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:58,320 Speaker 1: So your very good piece in the Guardian today talked 296 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:03,960 Speaker 1: about this idea that Trump is covered as an entertaining 297 00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:07,720 Speaker 1: figure and in a kind of jovial way that a 298 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:09,080 Speaker 1: democratic challenger is not. 299 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 2: Can you talk about that? 300 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:12,880 Speaker 5: Well, you wrote a great piece in the since we're 301 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:16,360 Speaker 5: in a mutual admiration society, or you wrote an important 302 00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 5: piece in Vanity Fair a couple of weeks ago, or 303 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:21,320 Speaker 5: maybe just last week, because we've lost track of time 304 00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:25,280 Speaker 5: about I think the headline was something like, can bide 305 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:27,960 Speaker 5: and ride boring to reelection? 306 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:29,480 Speaker 4: And that's a great question. 307 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:31,680 Speaker 5: I mean, he is boring, and we should all be 308 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:37,200 Speaker 5: very grateful that he's boring, because the boringness includes human decency, 309 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:42,360 Speaker 5: good governance, having people around him who are experienced and 310 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:45,200 Speaker 5: who he listens to, and getting things done in government. 311 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:48,480 Speaker 5: If that means boring, then we should all be celebrating boring. 312 00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:51,520 Speaker 5: Trump is never boring. We have to say that for him. 313 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:55,920 Speaker 5: He called himself a ratings machine. He is. He is compelling. 314 00:16:56,440 --> 00:16:59,680 Speaker 5: That's not a good thing in this case. So you know, 315 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:00,800 Speaker 5: that's sort. 316 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:01,840 Speaker 4: Of the en and the aang here. 317 00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:04,240 Speaker 5: But it seems like the media has a hard time 318 00:17:04,600 --> 00:17:08,639 Speaker 5: separating itself from seeing Trump as this constant sort of 319 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:14,400 Speaker 5: clickmeister and someone who will keep us entertained at all costs, 320 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:19,240 Speaker 5: you know, right over the cliff of democracy into authoritarianism. 321 00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:22,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it does seem like that, and I understand. 322 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:24,840 Speaker 1: So let's talk about how we got here, because I 323 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:28,000 Speaker 1: feel like that is something that I think could be 324 00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:32,320 Speaker 1: relevant So my question for you is some part of 325 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:39,200 Speaker 1: this is conservative pundits and politicians working the refs. 326 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:40,520 Speaker 2: Can you talk about that. 327 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:43,160 Speaker 5: Yeah, when we say working the refs, what we mean 328 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:46,320 Speaker 5: is that, so there's the mainstream media. So what we 329 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:48,560 Speaker 5: mean by that is sort of the big newspapers or 330 00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:52,000 Speaker 5: traditional newspaper companies, the New York Times and the Wall 331 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:57,160 Speaker 5: Street Journal, and the three broadcast networks and the cable 332 00:17:57,359 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 5: networks that aren't Fox News. Right, Okay, so let's call 333 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:03,440 Speaker 5: that is sort of the big journalism, big media and 334 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:08,240 Speaker 5: working the refs. Is that there's a constant barrage of 335 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:11,960 Speaker 5: criticism from the right that says, you people are all 336 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:15,679 Speaker 5: spouting DNC talking points, you're all doing the work of 337 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:18,399 Speaker 5: the DNC, you're in the tank for the Democrats, on 338 00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:21,280 Speaker 5: and on, and what the media wants to be seen 339 00:18:21,359 --> 00:18:25,160 Speaker 5: as is nonpartisan and fair, which is a reasonable thing 340 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:27,600 Speaker 5: to want to be seen as. But when the right, 341 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:31,119 Speaker 5: whether it's politicians or media figures, or whether it's Tucker 342 00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:35,119 Speaker 5: Carlson or whether it's Trump, come after the mainstream media 343 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 5: and say look at you, you're doing the work of 344 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:40,159 Speaker 5: the DNC. The reaction to that that's working the refs 345 00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:44,320 Speaker 5: you're pushing the refs in this case, the media to 346 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:48,480 Speaker 5: move to the right, and so very dutifully the media 347 00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:51,080 Speaker 5: does move to the right. And then it's never enough, 348 00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:52,959 Speaker 5: so you move to the right some more, and the 349 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:56,960 Speaker 5: sort of overton window of normalcy keeps moving rightward. 350 00:18:57,320 --> 00:18:59,960 Speaker 2: What you get after a while is this both sides. 351 00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:04,480 Speaker 5: That is very defensive and it's very scared, and it's 352 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:07,760 Speaker 5: not true to the core mission of journalism, right. 353 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:13,720 Speaker 1: And then there is the fundamental problem of click based journalism, 354 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:19,320 Speaker 1: which is that there is a real kind of incentive 355 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:22,720 Speaker 1: for journalists to write things that we'll get read. 356 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:25,240 Speaker 2: That sounds obvious, but it's actually not. 357 00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:28,639 Speaker 5: It's not only things that we'll get read and engaged with, 358 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:31,840 Speaker 5: which is a high value, and that's a profit driven thing, 359 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:35,080 Speaker 5: but it's also how can we get the biggest audience. 360 00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:38,399 Speaker 5: So if you're striving for the biggest audience, and again, 361 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:42,000 Speaker 5: this is all about revenue, it's all about being successful, 362 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:44,399 Speaker 5: it's all you know, The Washington Post is going to 363 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:47,240 Speaker 5: supposedly going to lose one hundred million dollars this year, 364 00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:50,040 Speaker 5: so you know, there are some actual reasons to be 365 00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:52,440 Speaker 5: worried about revenue. But I don't think that that should 366 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:54,719 Speaker 5: get in the way of doing good journalism. So if 367 00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:57,600 Speaker 5: you're trying to get the biggest audience, then you want 368 00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 5: to create the biggest tent, and so you want to 369 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:03,399 Speaker 5: bring in It's not just the independence, it's not just 370 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:05,960 Speaker 5: the Democrats, it's not just those who are not sure 371 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:08,639 Speaker 5: lean left. You want the whole country, you want the 372 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:11,240 Speaker 5: right wing. The problem is you're never going to have 373 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:14,359 Speaker 5: those people. They have already voted with their feet and 374 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:17,520 Speaker 5: gone to Fox News or Newsmax or Bright Barter or 375 00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:21,719 Speaker 5: Ben Shapiro or whoever. They're not going to start reading 376 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:24,760 Speaker 5: the New York Times every day, So it's kind of pointless. 377 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:28,080 Speaker 5: But I do think that everything we saw that happened 378 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:32,000 Speaker 5: at CNN under Chris Licht was about this making the 379 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:36,560 Speaker 5: tent big and trying to get every viewer that was possible. 380 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:38,919 Speaker 5: I mean, I believe in talking to all parts of 381 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:42,399 Speaker 5: the country and trying to communicate with everyone, but not 382 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:46,680 Speaker 5: if it means elevating liars and giving people a megaphone 383 00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:48,200 Speaker 5: to say untrue things. 384 00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:49,800 Speaker 4: And we see way too much of that. 385 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:53,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, because the thing is part of the problem is 386 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:57,200 Speaker 1: this idea that the right is just very good at 387 00:20:57,240 --> 00:21:01,560 Speaker 1: messaging too, So you have a lie, and so talk 388 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:06,320 Speaker 1: to me about like ways in which we can engage 389 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:09,439 Speaker 1: with right wing content that may or may not be 390 00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:12,480 Speaker 1: truthful and still report it. 391 00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:12,720 Speaker 3: Right. 392 00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:15,600 Speaker 1: You can't ignore things. Ignoring Trump is not an option. 393 00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:17,080 Speaker 1: I mean, at least right now. 394 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:20,320 Speaker 5: The sort of easy and cartoonish way to talk about 395 00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:24,080 Speaker 5: this is the truth sandwich is not to let the 396 00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:27,040 Speaker 5: person spout the lie and then try to fact check it, 397 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:30,639 Speaker 5: but rather to start with what is true, to allow 398 00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:32,960 Speaker 5: the person to say whatever it is they want to say, 399 00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:37,040 Speaker 5: and then to fact check it. It's an anti propaganda technique. 400 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:40,560 Speaker 5: You're putting the untruth, you're covering it, but you're kind 401 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:43,040 Speaker 5: of putting it in a sandwich of truth. And that 402 00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:47,159 Speaker 5: is something that can help to keep the misinformation and 403 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:49,320 Speaker 5: disinformation from spreading. 404 00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:52,560 Speaker 4: And help to kind of contain the lie, right. 405 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:54,880 Speaker 1: And I think that's so important because when we talk 406 00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:58,000 Speaker 1: about Trump, it's really important in twenty fifteen to realize 407 00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:01,840 Speaker 1: you got two billion dollars on media, So every time 408 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:07,760 Speaker 1: he's tweeted something racist, he got so much repetition of 409 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:08,639 Speaker 1: the lie. 410 00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:10,240 Speaker 2: It did blur the. 411 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:11,720 Speaker 4: World, right. 412 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:14,120 Speaker 5: And I mean, it's not only the lies that get 413 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:16,600 Speaker 5: a lot of coverage. It's also kind of the silly 414 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:20,280 Speaker 5: stuff that still you know, compels people like, for example, 415 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:24,000 Speaker 5: the mugshot. You know, so when he surrendered in Georgia 416 00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:27,000 Speaker 5: and there was mugshot and he posed in a particularly 417 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:29,080 Speaker 5: supposedly movie star. 418 00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:32,960 Speaker 2: He thought he looked like Churchill for Margaret, I am 419 00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:33,920 Speaker 2: torturing you. 420 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:35,200 Speaker 4: I couldn't see that. 421 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:37,320 Speaker 5: But at any rate, you know, there was a lot 422 00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:39,440 Speaker 5: of coverage of that because it was like, oh, wow, 423 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:42,440 Speaker 5: here's this crazy, weird thing, and we're going to cover 424 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:44,560 Speaker 5: the heck out of it and show the mugshot. And 425 00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:47,200 Speaker 5: you know, the effect of that is to play right 426 00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:51,280 Speaker 5: into the hands of Trump and others who want this 427 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:53,800 Speaker 5: sort of thing. But the thing that I find kind 428 00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:57,520 Speaker 5: of the most disturbing is, for example, with this Biden 429 00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:00,919 Speaker 5: impeachment effort. And you know, we should all understand that 430 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:05,000 Speaker 5: there's really no reason to impeach Joe Biden. There's no evidence, 431 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:08,800 Speaker 5: there's not even the beginnings of evidence, and yet it's 432 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:12,760 Speaker 5: reported as this very straight thing right for the most part, Oh, 433 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:16,719 Speaker 5: Kevin McCarthy moves to begin on Biden's impeachment inquiry as 434 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:19,760 Speaker 5: if it's some very serious, you know, real thing about 435 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:23,639 Speaker 5: high crimes and misdemeanors, when really it's just about McCarthy 436 00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:28,000 Speaker 5: getting incredibly pressured from the right and facing an ouster 437 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:31,160 Speaker 5: and facing a government shutdown and sort of being desperate. 438 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:33,520 Speaker 5: It's not admirable on his part, but that is what's 439 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:37,000 Speaker 5: going on. So anytime you have a headline at tweet 440 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:39,439 Speaker 5: display type of any kind, or the top of a 441 00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:43,480 Speaker 5: news show that reports it without that context, you're really 442 00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:44,440 Speaker 5: doing a disservice. 443 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:46,399 Speaker 2: You're actively misinforming people. 444 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:50,879 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think that's a really good point. We 445 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:55,080 Speaker 1: cannot rely on the normal journalistic tropes of the past. 446 00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:55,879 Speaker 2: Yeah. 447 00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:58,840 Speaker 5: In my Guardian column today I talked about the big 448 00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:02,040 Speaker 5: problem and the big solution, and the big problem as 449 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:05,720 Speaker 5: I see it, is that the news media, the mainstream media, 450 00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:10,639 Speaker 5: legitimately wants to be seen as nonpartisan. Okay, that's fine, 451 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:13,080 Speaker 5: that's reasonable, But what it means is that they do 452 00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:17,160 Speaker 5: this both sides stuff all the time, and it's very damaging. 453 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:19,800 Speaker 5: And I think we all know what I mean by that, 454 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:23,200 Speaker 5: That we're equalizing things that aren't equal, and we're normalizing 455 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:25,800 Speaker 5: things that aren't normal. So that's the big problem, and 456 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:29,800 Speaker 5: the big solution, I feel is for newsrooms to remember 457 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:32,880 Speaker 5: all day long and to be reminded by their top 458 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:35,879 Speaker 5: leaders all day long what their mission is, which is 459 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:40,400 Speaker 5: to truthfully inform the public about important matters so that 460 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:42,159 Speaker 5: the citizens can go out. 461 00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:43,639 Speaker 4: And hold people accountable. 462 00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:45,600 Speaker 5: I mean, that's what we're supposed to be about, and 463 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:48,720 Speaker 5: that's why we're protected by the First Amendment. And if 464 00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:52,240 Speaker 5: you do that, you will report with context, you will 465 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:55,240 Speaker 5: write the headlines that make sense. You will not do 466 00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:58,920 Speaker 5: this crazy both sides ism. So I think there is 467 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:01,040 Speaker 5: a big problem, and I think there is a big solution. 468 00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:03,720 Speaker 1: But the fundamental problem here is that you have one 469 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:07,119 Speaker 1: party that no longer believes in democracy. I mean, maybe 470 00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:10,200 Speaker 1: not every member of that party, maybe not mint Romney, 471 00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:14,040 Speaker 1: but the fundamental gist of it is like you go 472 00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:18,959 Speaker 1: to Wisconsin, they're trying to impeach an elected judge because 473 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:19,760 Speaker 1: she won't. 474 00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:20,959 Speaker 2: Rule the way they want her to. 475 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:24,880 Speaker 1: I mean, there is a fundamental disconnect here between one 476 00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:27,879 Speaker 1: party you may not like, Democrats, and the other party 477 00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:30,400 Speaker 1: that has sort of given up on the whole system, right. 478 00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:34,320 Speaker 5: I mean, that's the fundamental politics or government problem, But 479 00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:38,360 Speaker 5: that isn't really the fundamental media problem. Fundamental media problem 480 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:41,800 Speaker 5: is to not recognize that and to reflect it in 481 00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:43,440 Speaker 5: your coverage all the time. 482 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:46,520 Speaker 1: Right, But if you say, well one party no longer 483 00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:49,280 Speaker 1: believes in democracy, you seem like a democrat. 484 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:51,160 Speaker 4: Well, I don't think that needs to be true. 485 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:54,400 Speaker 5: I mean we could reposition our thinking so that we 486 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:58,600 Speaker 5: think in terms of what shouldn't journalists and media companies 487 00:25:58,640 --> 00:25:59,800 Speaker 5: stand for democracy. 488 00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:01,320 Speaker 2: That doesn't seem like a heavy. 489 00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:01,600 Speaker 4: Lift to me. 490 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:04,199 Speaker 5: It's just not I mean that's why we exist, so 491 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:06,920 Speaker 5: it shouldn't be a heavy lift. So if we look 492 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:09,880 Speaker 5: at it through that lens, what is the pro democracy 493 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:15,000 Speaker 5: stance candidate, et cetera, what is the anti democracy stance candidate, 494 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:18,320 Speaker 5: et cetera, Then you kind of can move away from 495 00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:22,480 Speaker 5: the sphere of being partisan. I mean, it does, in 496 00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:27,400 Speaker 5: this case result in finally a political answer. But that's 497 00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:30,200 Speaker 5: not because we're love democrats or anything like that. It's 498 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:32,600 Speaker 5: really not about that. And I think if you surveyed 499 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:36,680 Speaker 5: as many journalists as you could find, they really aren't 500 00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:40,400 Speaker 5: interested in being pro democrat or anything like that. Their 501 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:44,840 Speaker 5: pro story, they're pro conflict, they're pro getting their names 502 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:48,480 Speaker 5: on the front page, their pro their careers, those things. 503 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:50,680 Speaker 1: I want to get into this for a second too, though, 504 00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:54,440 Speaker 1: because a lot of this writing, the problem is not 505 00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:58,919 Speaker 1: necessarily the writing or the journalist as much as it 506 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:02,480 Speaker 1: is even the headline. Can you talk a little bit 507 00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:07,680 Speaker 1: about how political headlines are born and what is the 508 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:10,280 Speaker 1: sort of pressure point there? 509 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:15,000 Speaker 5: Often, I would say, still the case is that reporters 510 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:18,639 Speaker 5: and writers don't write their own headlines. They may suggest 511 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:21,240 Speaker 5: a headline, they might write it and have it accepted, 512 00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:24,960 Speaker 5: but in general editors do that, and you know, there's 513 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:27,760 Speaker 5: a lot of pressure to have the headline be the 514 00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:30,919 Speaker 5: thing that's going to get the most engagement. In other words, 515 00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:33,480 Speaker 5: you know, the most clicks, the most you know, the 516 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:36,199 Speaker 5: most attention. Let's put it that way. And it's not 517 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:40,520 Speaker 5: really like, oh, are we creating an impression like for example, 518 00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:43,080 Speaker 5: and I mean this is this is a beauty? Is 519 00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:47,800 Speaker 5: when Biden was on his Asia diplomatic mission and you 520 00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:51,920 Speaker 5: know that headline in the New York Times, he had 521 00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:54,359 Speaker 5: gone out to reporters, you know, in a gaggle or 522 00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:59,320 Speaker 5: whatever and said, you know, self deprecatingly and jokingly, good evening. 523 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:01,119 Speaker 4: It is evening, isn't it? 524 00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:03,640 Speaker 5: And then he said something about, wow, you know, five 525 00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:05,919 Speaker 5: days of travel, you know, it's pretty crazy. 526 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:06,240 Speaker 2: Isn't it? 527 00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:06,439 Speaker 3: Right? 528 00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:09,240 Speaker 5: And so the Times picked up on that thing that 529 00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:12,280 Speaker 5: was it is evening, isn't it put that in quotes, 530 00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:14,680 Speaker 5: and the rest of the headline was something like an 531 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:18,240 Speaker 5: eighty year old president on a whirlwind trip of Asia, 532 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:21,800 Speaker 5: in other words, portraying him because of the combination of 533 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:25,440 Speaker 5: the question it is evening, isn't it and his age, 534 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:28,720 Speaker 5: portraying him as this doddering guy who didn't know what time. 535 00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:29,280 Speaker 4: Of day it was? 536 00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:32,119 Speaker 5: Now do people get beyond the headline and read a 537 00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:33,440 Speaker 5: pretty balanced story. 538 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:36,480 Speaker 4: No, A lot of times they don't. 539 00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:39,480 Speaker 5: A lot of times they don't, you know, and I 540 00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:42,440 Speaker 5: don't know that fixing every headline in the New York 541 00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:44,640 Speaker 5: Times of the Washington Post, the kinds of things we're 542 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:47,880 Speaker 5: talking about, is really going to change the tenor of 543 00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:50,680 Speaker 5: the country. But let's get it right, you know, let's 544 00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:54,280 Speaker 5: at least try to not mislead and to not help 545 00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:58,400 Speaker 5: those who, if elected, are going to destroy the democracy, 546 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:00,960 Speaker 5: which Trump has clearly said, you know, he's already said, 547 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:03,239 Speaker 5: I'm going to put my cronies in and we're not 548 00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:05,720 Speaker 5: going to have these annoying rules that have kept me 549 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:07,040 Speaker 5: from overturning the election. 550 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:11,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, part of the problem is that it's more fun 551 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:13,240 Speaker 1: to write about fascism. 552 00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:15,600 Speaker 5: Well it is for now until you're put out of 553 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:18,800 Speaker 5: business because you no longer have a free press. 554 00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:21,480 Speaker 4: But I guess for now, maybe it's more fun. 555 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:23,520 Speaker 2: What you're saying is a really good point. 556 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:29,080 Speaker 1: Like the mugshot, the Lewandowski affair, this sort of big, flashy, 557 00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:33,880 Speaker 1: kind of very much out of our normal political world 558 00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:37,560 Speaker 1: stuff really does get a lot of attention because it's 559 00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:40,480 Speaker 1: sort of scandalous and it feels like celebrity gossip and 560 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:42,160 Speaker 1: not like policy. 561 00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:45,680 Speaker 5: I mean, how many years of this? This started really 562 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:48,680 Speaker 5: in earnest in twenty fifteen. It is eight years later, 563 00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:52,720 Speaker 5: and I really wonder and doubt whether we've learned a 564 00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:53,320 Speaker 5: single thing. 565 00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:55,360 Speaker 2: Well, that is the real worry. 566 00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:58,600 Speaker 1: The Biden administration has gotten a lot of things done, 567 00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:01,680 Speaker 1: and they've taken absolutely the office attacked right. They've become 568 00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:04,120 Speaker 1: And I was talking to a straight journalist who was 569 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:07,880 Speaker 1: saying to me, like they're aggressively boring, Like they work 570 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:11,720 Speaker 1: hard to be boring, which works for them, But do 571 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:14,440 Speaker 1: you think that is why it's so hard for them? 572 00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:19,640 Speaker 1: Like the prescription drug whin and the Japan South Korea summit, 573 00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:23,280 Speaker 1: even this trip just now where Biden was doing all 574 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:26,800 Speaker 1: these meetings in Alaska and did some really important stuff 575 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:30,560 Speaker 1: with Asia, and you know, China is ultimately America's biggest 576 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:33,400 Speaker 1: problem in the globe. You know, he's in there trying 577 00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:36,640 Speaker 1: to get stuff going and I think quite a good way. 578 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:38,960 Speaker 2: Do you think that is their problem? 579 00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:42,080 Speaker 5: But people will say that they're interested in reading about 580 00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:45,680 Speaker 5: and hearing about policy and substance. But if they're presented with, 581 00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:50,320 Speaker 5: you know, an in depth story about the economic efforts 582 00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:54,720 Speaker 5: and how you know, or some diplomatic mission or Trump's 583 00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:57,520 Speaker 5: mug shot, They're going to read the mugshot story. 584 00:30:57,640 --> 00:30:59,360 Speaker 4: And that maybe is human nature. 585 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:02,960 Speaker 5: So I think that's it makes it really more important 586 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:05,760 Speaker 5: that the media do its job and be responsible. 587 00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:10,080 Speaker 2: Margaret Sullivan, thank you, thank you, thank you. I owe you. Okay, 588 00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:12,240 Speaker 2: no you don't, but thanks. It was fun to talk. 589 00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:16,640 Speaker 1: David leon Hart is a senior writer at The New 590 00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:21,880 Speaker 1: York Times. Welcome, welcome to you, Welcome back to Fast Politics. 591 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:23,120 Speaker 3: David, Thank you, Molly. 592 00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:23,920 Speaker 6: It's great to be back. 593 00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:26,440 Speaker 1: You know, I think about you all the time when 594 00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:29,200 Speaker 1: I read your newsletter. I feel like you don't write 595 00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:30,280 Speaker 1: every day, right. 596 00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:32,640 Speaker 6: I don't write every day. I maybe write it four 597 00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:33,320 Speaker 6: times a week. 598 00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:38,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, you have an interesting perspective because you have to 599 00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:40,880 Speaker 1: sort of be an expert on everything. 600 00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:44,480 Speaker 6: Well, since no one is actually an expert, or at 601 00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:47,480 Speaker 6: least I am not, I have the wonderful advantage that 602 00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:51,200 Speaker 6: because it's a New York Times email, basically at any 603 00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:54,200 Speaker 6: point I can call up a colleague, I can send 604 00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:56,280 Speaker 6: a draft to a colleague. I can say, please tell 605 00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:58,440 Speaker 6: me when I'm getting wrong here, please tell us what 606 00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:00,720 Speaker 6: we should say. And so it's very nice of you 607 00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:03,680 Speaker 6: to say that. I feel like what I'm often doing 608 00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:08,400 Speaker 6: is channeling the expertise of the New York Times, which 609 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:10,880 Speaker 6: you know, it's like what the Daily podcast does. I mean, 610 00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:13,640 Speaker 6: first of all, it's incredibly fun, right because think about 611 00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:15,720 Speaker 6: every burns. You might have a question about the news, 612 00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:17,280 Speaker 6: and it's like, oh, I have a question about the military, 613 00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:19,680 Speaker 6: I can call Alleen Cooper, Eric Schmidt or you know. 614 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:21,360 Speaker 6: It's I know, we're here to talk about the world 615 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:23,040 Speaker 6: on my job, but it's a really fun job. 616 00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:26,040 Speaker 1: No, And I mean I feel that way doing this podcast, 617 00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:29,320 Speaker 1: Like I am constantly delighted that I get to have 618 00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:32,120 Speaker 1: people explain things to me. But you do have this 619 00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:34,760 Speaker 1: sort of like you are taking in more information than 620 00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:37,200 Speaker 1: the rest of us. I think about that a lot, 621 00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:40,920 Speaker 1: because I read a lot. But I always feel very 622 00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:44,960 Speaker 1: conscious of the bubble, you know, whatever that looks like 623 00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:47,520 Speaker 1: again that I'm in. And you know, some stories that 624 00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:50,200 Speaker 1: don't make it to me, you know, like today my 625 00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:55,080 Speaker 1: first cousin who has descended into madness with his involvement 626 00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:57,680 Speaker 1: of the Green Party. There was a profile of him 627 00:32:57,720 --> 00:32:59,200 Speaker 1: today in the New York Times, and I did not 628 00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:01,520 Speaker 1: know it until I called my other first cousin. So 629 00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:04,440 Speaker 1: there are definitely stories that we miss. 630 00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:06,200 Speaker 6: Oh yeah, I mean one of the things that I 631 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:08,520 Speaker 6: try to say to my colleaguesatise. You know, people at 632 00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:11,320 Speaker 6: the Times will apologize, I'm so sorry I missed your story. 633 00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:13,680 Speaker 6: I'll say, there's no way any of us, whether we 634 00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:15,760 Speaker 6: work here or not, has time to read the entire 635 00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:18,240 Speaker 6: New York Times. That no one should pretend otherwise. So 636 00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:20,280 Speaker 6: I know how you feel. I haven't missed a story 637 00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:21,720 Speaker 6: and my cousin, but I know how you feel. 638 00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:25,120 Speaker 1: Let's talk about the military, because there are all of 639 00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:28,160 Speaker 1: these military appointments that are being held up by Tommy 640 00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:31,840 Speaker 1: tuber Bell, the sort of clap back from the Republicans 641 00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:34,240 Speaker 1: and I heard my ground say this on Morning show 642 00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:37,920 Speaker 1: when I was on it today, was that Chuck Schumer can, 643 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:41,240 Speaker 1: in fact just take up every single one and hold 644 00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:46,720 Speaker 1: the entire Senate hostage for three weeks, voting up and 645 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:50,400 Speaker 1: down every military nominee. 646 00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:51,840 Speaker 2: Why do you think he doesn't do that? 647 00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:55,120 Speaker 6: So, first of all, the Senate has multiple things that 648 00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:57,719 Speaker 6: it wants to get done, right, and the Democrats are 649 00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:01,880 Speaker 6: the one in charge, and there's a Democratic president and 650 00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:06,160 Speaker 6: the Republicans control the House. So if effectively Tuberville is 651 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:10,399 Speaker 6: able to turn the Senate into a place that all 652 00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:14,760 Speaker 6: it's doing is solving this problem that he created, that's 653 00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:17,439 Speaker 6: sort of a gift, right. I mean, we'd be much 654 00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:21,040 Speaker 6: better for the president and for the Senate Democrats if 655 00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:24,080 Speaker 6: Tubert would stand down. Then if they have to turn 656 00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:27,080 Speaker 6: over all the Senate's business to him, I think that's 657 00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:28,319 Speaker 6: the short answer, right. 658 00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:31,799 Speaker 1: You know, I'm thinking about like the leadership question in 659 00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:37,720 Speaker 1: both the Senate and the House. Like Mitch McConnell last 660 00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:41,040 Speaker 1: week he had this freeze again, there was a lot 661 00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:45,480 Speaker 1: of discussion about like whether Republicans were going to replace him. Basically, 662 00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:49,240 Speaker 1: the sort of Faustian bargain they made was that sixty 663 00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:52,719 Speaker 1: percent of McConnell is better than one hundred you know, 664 00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:55,759 Speaker 1: or seventy five percent McConnell is still better than one 665 00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:58,560 Speaker 1: hundred percent of Rick Scott. 666 00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:01,120 Speaker 6: Yeah, I think that's something that Democrats, or at least 667 00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:04,200 Speaker 6: some Democrats, can probably identify with, even if they don't 668 00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:07,080 Speaker 6: like Mitch McConnell. This is a complicated analogy to make. 669 00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:10,480 Speaker 6: President Biden appears to be in much better condition than 670 00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:13,800 Speaker 6: Senator McConnell is, and I'm not suggesting otherwise, but President 671 00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:17,640 Speaker 6: Biden is also older than a party or a country 672 00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:21,680 Speaker 6: should ideally want its president to be. And yet I 673 00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:26,319 Speaker 6: think what many Democrats have realized are, yes, it would 674 00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:30,200 Speaker 6: be better if President Biden if we're younger. However, first 675 00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:34,320 Speaker 6: of all, he by many measures, maybe not the polls, 676 00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:36,640 Speaker 6: but by many measures, is at a very effective first 677 00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:41,160 Speaker 6: and second of all, the incumbency has big advantages for 678 00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:44,480 Speaker 6: a president. And third of all, President Biden gets the 679 00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:49,160 Speaker 6: electorate in ways that many other nationally prominent Democrats do not. 680 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:52,600 Speaker 6: And often this becomes a discussion about Kamala Harris, which 681 00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:55,400 Speaker 6: in some ways is unfair. It's not just Kamala Harris. 682 00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:58,360 Speaker 6: I mean, there is a very reasonable argument that it's 683 00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:01,960 Speaker 6: not clear that any other in twenty twenty who plausibly 684 00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:04,719 Speaker 6: could have had the Democratic nomination would have won, would 685 00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:08,120 Speaker 6: have beaten Trump not close. And so there's this funny 686 00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:10,360 Speaker 6: thing in which do Democrats wish Joe Biden were younger? 687 00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:11,200 Speaker 3: Obviously? 688 00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:15,360 Speaker 6: Do Republicans which miss McConnell were younger and healthier? Obviously, 689 00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:18,840 Speaker 6: But I do think it's not insane if they're deciding 690 00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:21,719 Speaker 6: that they're better off with him without him. It's not 691 00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:25,080 Speaker 6: great for the country. I'm now leaving beside the Biden discussion. 692 00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:28,000 Speaker 6: It's not great for the country to have senators who 693 00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:31,200 Speaker 6: are as important as McConnell and Feinstein, who are as 694 00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:34,359 Speaker 6: obviously compromised as both of them. 695 00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:39,600 Speaker 1: Does McConnell sort of immunize Democrats a little bit with 696 00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:40,680 Speaker 1: the age discussion? 697 00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:41,759 Speaker 3: I don't think so. 698 00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:46,000 Speaker 1: McConnell can't be like Biden's too old to ron right, 699 00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:50,520 Speaker 1: I mean, like Republican leadership has clearly said McConnell, who 700 00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:55,239 Speaker 1: has actual medical stuff going on, can stay in his job. 701 00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:58,399 Speaker 1: Doesn't that sort of make a case that I mean, 702 00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:02,040 Speaker 1: they obviously would not kick candidate out just for being old. 703 00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:04,640 Speaker 1: If they're not going to kick a candidate out who 704 00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:07,560 Speaker 1: is old and also has something going on. 705 00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:10,520 Speaker 6: If we were debating this on the merits, it might 706 00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:13,400 Speaker 6: have more weight. But I just think the thing with 707 00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:16,719 Speaker 6: age is the fact that Biden's in better shape than 708 00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:20,040 Speaker 6: McConnell and in a lot better shape. Will not immunize 709 00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:23,400 Speaker 6: Bid during a campaign where he's not running against McConnell. 710 00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:25,920 Speaker 6: And so I think it's too much of elip I 711 00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:27,719 Speaker 6: think a lot of voters don't really care pay that 712 00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:30,120 Speaker 6: much attention to the Senate, and they pay much more 713 00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:33,160 Speaker 6: attention to the presidency. And Biden's not running against McConnell. 714 00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:36,279 Speaker 6: If Biden we're running against McConnell, then I think basically 715 00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:37,080 Speaker 6: he would be fine. 716 00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:40,560 Speaker 1: So let's talk about like Republican leadership here. It's a 717 00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:44,120 Speaker 1: pretty interesting and perilous in a lot of ways moment 718 00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:45,359 Speaker 1: for Republicans. 719 00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:48,160 Speaker 2: You have McConnell. Who is this? 720 00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:52,239 Speaker 1: I mean, and I say this, it sounds like adoration, 721 00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:54,320 Speaker 1: but it's really anxiety. 722 00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:58,120 Speaker 2: McConnell's a genius, right, he is a genius. He got 723 00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:02,200 Speaker 2: three Supreme Court seats from guy who should have had won, right. 724 00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:04,759 Speaker 2: I mean, you can say what you will, but he 725 00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:09,719 Speaker 2: is the Sun Sui of all of this, and he's 726 00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:14,440 Speaker 2: just incredibly brilliant at getting stuff done in the Senate. 727 00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:17,719 Speaker 2: And you have him in whatever state he's in. And 728 00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:20,719 Speaker 2: then you have McCarthy, who is the sort of. 729 00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:23,799 Speaker 1: Not that right, who can't whip votes and has had 730 00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:27,640 Speaker 1: a lot of trouble and has now started an inquiry 731 00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:32,480 Speaker 1: into impeachment even though he's really maybe doing it in 732 00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:35,680 Speaker 1: the hopes of avoiding a government shutdown. I mean, very 733 00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:38,640 Speaker 1: convoluted stuff. And he's still fighting with Matt Gates even 734 00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:41,719 Speaker 1: though he did it, and he's cursing and he's saying, like, 735 00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:45,120 Speaker 1: you know, so, my question for you is, here's this 736 00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:49,440 Speaker 1: Republican leadership, and then you have Trump who's backstage agitating 737 00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:52,080 Speaker 1: for this or that. That's sort of the party, right, 738 00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:54,880 Speaker 1: I mean, there isn't someone else out there, you know 739 00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:55,680 Speaker 1: who I'm missing? 740 00:38:56,360 --> 00:38:59,279 Speaker 6: No, that's right. I think you were right to be 741 00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:03,960 Speaker 6: alarmed about the state of the Republican Party and the 742 00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:10,520 Speaker 6: Republican leadership. I think the Senate Republicans to me, proved 743 00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:18,520 Speaker 6: to be substantially more functional and even open to compromise 744 00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:22,879 Speaker 6: than I expected. They came to the table and they 745 00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:29,080 Speaker 6: passed pretty substantial bipartisan legislation. They shaped that legislation in 746 00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:31,480 Speaker 6: ways they wanted to. They made it more conservative, as 747 00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:34,879 Speaker 6: they should have since they're conservatives. They have been very 748 00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:38,799 Speaker 6: fish on Ukraine, and they haven't pulled this thing where 749 00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:40,600 Speaker 6: they said, well, we're against whatever the President of the 750 00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:41,960 Speaker 6: United States is for. 751 00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:43,960 Speaker 2: For Republicans is amazing. 752 00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:47,479 Speaker 6: For modern Republicans is really quick striking, and in many 753 00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:50,000 Speaker 6: ways that's the way. I don't know how to apportion 754 00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:53,840 Speaker 6: credit among Biden and McConnell and the other people involved, 755 00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:57,800 Speaker 6: but that to me, I did not expect how much 756 00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:01,399 Speaker 6: bipartisan legislation and then that, But the Democrats were still 757 00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:03,160 Speaker 6: able to do a whole bunch of stuff on a 758 00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:06,200 Speaker 6: party line vote, which is also completely appropriately. But the 759 00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:11,959 Speaker 6: problem is we're dealing with a house that is extremely radicalized. 760 00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:14,080 Speaker 6: Is talking whether they do it or not, they're talking 761 00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:18,680 Speaker 6: about impeaching Biden really without any evidence. I mean, hunter 762 00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:20,359 Speaker 6: Biden has done some things wrong, and I think it's 763 00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:22,440 Speaker 6: legitimate to talk about that and how he's traded on 764 00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:25,279 Speaker 6: the family name. But this there's no evidence of the 765 00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:29,320 Speaker 6: kind of corruption that they're talking about with Biden at all. 766 00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:32,960 Speaker 1: And if relatives trading on the family name, I mean, 767 00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:37,200 Speaker 1: perhaps this is my own nepotistic wheelhouse, but I mean 768 00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:40,600 Speaker 1: that is not illegal. And like as Tony Busby, the 769 00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:44,520 Speaker 1: lawyer for Ken Paxton says, if you know trading on 770 00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:47,399 Speaker 1: the influence of your parents is illegal, you know we'd 771 00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:48,240 Speaker 1: all be in jail. 772 00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:54,800 Speaker 6: I think it's legitimate for people, including Republicans to criticize 773 00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:58,720 Speaker 6: the Bidens, including the President, for the fact that this happened. 774 00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:02,040 Speaker 6: I think that's completely lee legitimate as a notion of 775 00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:06,320 Speaker 6: impeaching him for things that Sun did that are sleazy 776 00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:08,759 Speaker 6: and in some ways illegal, to be clear, but we're 777 00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:12,680 Speaker 6: not talking about major crimes. Is unlike any other impeachment 778 00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:14,600 Speaker 6: we've had. And then we didn't even get to Trump, 779 00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:17,160 Speaker 6: which was in your answer, which clearly is the least 780 00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:18,279 Speaker 6: functional part of the part. 781 00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:22,839 Speaker 1: So let's talk about Mitt Romney because he's decided he's 782 00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:25,520 Speaker 1: not going to run again, and he has done this 783 00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:29,280 Speaker 1: book with Mackay Coppins, which has a lot of scoops 784 00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:31,799 Speaker 1: and that sort of explain to our listeners what you 785 00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:32,359 Speaker 1: make of. 786 00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:33,800 Speaker 3: This of Mitt Romney. 787 00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:36,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, and of Mitt Romney's departure, you. 788 00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:40,400 Speaker 6: Know, I mean, look, Mitt Romney is such a fascinating character. 789 00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:43,839 Speaker 6: The ways in which his life has not been identical 790 00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:46,800 Speaker 6: to his father's, but the ways in which the arc 791 00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:50,560 Speaker 6: have been so similar is just really striking. And this 792 00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:53,440 Speaker 6: is just a small footnote. But as you know, Molly, 793 00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:55,880 Speaker 6: I have a book coming out in next month on 794 00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:58,479 Speaker 6: the history of the American economy and George Romney. It's 795 00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:01,440 Speaker 6: dad is a minor character in the book, and I 796 00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:04,200 Speaker 6: spent a lot of time reading about him and looking 797 00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:07,120 Speaker 6: at pictures of him, and I recently was with Romney, 798 00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:10,080 Speaker 6: Mitt Romney in person, and oh my goodness, the physical 799 00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:14,120 Speaker 6: resemblance between Mitt Romney today and the Leyden life version 800 00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:16,400 Speaker 6: of his father is chilling if you've spent a lot 801 00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:18,439 Speaker 6: of time looking at photos. But to answer your question 802 00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:21,600 Speaker 6: more substantively, I mean Mitt Romney, like his father, went 803 00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:25,319 Speaker 6: and did extremely well in business, a lot richer than 804 00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:28,040 Speaker 6: his dad did, because inequality is much worse and much 805 00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:29,719 Speaker 6: higher than it used to be. That's sort of the 806 00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:32,000 Speaker 6: point of the Romney family in my book. Then he 807 00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:35,280 Speaker 6: went off and became a moderate governor of a state 808 00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:39,600 Speaker 6: just like his dad, Massachusetts. In Massachusetts, Mitt Romney had 809 00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:43,160 Speaker 6: this incredibly impactful term in which he passed the first 810 00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:46,600 Speaker 6: version of universal healthcare and a state with Ted Kennedy. 811 00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:49,960 Speaker 6: It became a model for Obamacare. He then runs for president. 812 00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:52,680 Speaker 6: That's sort of an unhappy chapter in his career, just 813 00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:55,239 Speaker 6: as it was for his dad. His dad failed to 814 00:42:55,239 --> 00:42:58,080 Speaker 6: get the Republican nomination. He's sort of pretned he with 815 00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:00,160 Speaker 6: someone he wasn't. I mean, he's more conservative, and he 816 00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:02,560 Speaker 6: pretended to be as Massachusetts governor, but he's not as 817 00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:04,880 Speaker 6: conservative as he pretended to be. Already profice and then 818 00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:07,719 Speaker 6: he had this last act where he becomes sort of 819 00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:11,600 Speaker 6: the conscience of the Senate. He is deeply, deeply conservative, 820 00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:16,000 Speaker 6: but he also is an institutionalist. He is principled, and 821 00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:18,480 Speaker 6: I think, on the one hand, normally I think we 822 00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:20,920 Speaker 6: should be happy when people are not deciding not to 823 00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:23,279 Speaker 6: stay in the Senate into their eighties. But I think 824 00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:26,080 Speaker 6: he is the kind of person whom we need more 825 00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:29,680 Speaker 6: of an American politics. He's not really a moderate. He's 826 00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:34,640 Speaker 6: really conservative, but he believes in working with moderates and 827 00:43:34,719 --> 00:43:37,320 Speaker 6: with liberals. He's a patriot. Where do you agree with 828 00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:37,759 Speaker 6: him or not? 829 00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:38,760 Speaker 2: Yeah? 830 00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:41,160 Speaker 1: My question is more, did he get to the Senate 831 00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:45,440 Speaker 1: and realize this place is so damaged that you cannot 832 00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:50,160 Speaker 1: solve America's problems from it? Or is this a sort 833 00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:54,000 Speaker 1: of bell weather for the death of those sort of 834 00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:58,720 Speaker 1: last gasps of bipartisan stuff like are we heading towards 835 00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:03,280 Speaker 1: like Senate it filled with Ted Cruz's or it's terrible 836 00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:05,719 Speaker 1: to be a senator after being a governor and he 837 00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:08,279 Speaker 1: just figured why is it worth a look? 838 00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:11,040 Speaker 6: I have deep worries about the state of American democracy. 839 00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:14,360 Speaker 6: If you listen to the things Donald Trump is saying, 840 00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:16,840 Speaker 6: as he is the leading candidate to be a major 841 00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:19,680 Speaker 6: party dominee, it's or not to be deeply worried. I 842 00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:23,799 Speaker 6: genuinely don't know how much broader import to put in 843 00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:26,399 Speaker 6: Romney's leading the Senate. I mean, he is seventy six. 844 00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:28,319 Speaker 6: I have not spent a huge amount of time with him. 845 00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:31,280 Speaker 6: I've interviewing him a few times, but he genuinely seems 846 00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:34,520 Speaker 6: to care deeply about his family. And I'll tell you, 847 00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:36,879 Speaker 6: if I were seventy six, I would rather spend time 848 00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:40,120 Speaker 6: with my family than with ninety nine other members. And 849 00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:42,520 Speaker 6: so you know, there could be some of that going 850 00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:46,080 Speaker 6: as well. I think right now there are vanishingly few 851 00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:49,799 Speaker 6: people like him in the Senate. I think, strangely for 852 00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:53,120 Speaker 6: some of the reasons we talked about before, setting aside 853 00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:55,600 Speaker 6: the issue of who's willing to stand up to Donald Trump, 854 00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:59,080 Speaker 6: which is a very very big issue. But setting that aside, 855 00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:02,560 Speaker 6: I still think the Senate has some of these muscles 856 00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:06,560 Speaker 6: where it's able to pass bipartisan legislation. I think the 857 00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:12,120 Speaker 6: worst thing about Romney leaving is he had the courage 858 00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:16,000 Speaker 6: to stand up to Donald Trump in a way that 859 00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:22,200 Speaker 6: no other remaining Republican member of Congress had. 860 00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:24,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, they'll get a lot braver if he 861 00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:28,319 Speaker 1: keeps losing elections. You know, there's like cowardice, but there's 862 00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:32,040 Speaker 1: also just a calculus that you need the base to win. 863 00:45:32,520 --> 00:45:32,759 Speaker 3: Yep. 864 00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:34,799 Speaker 6: But of course that's how we can end up in 865 00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:38,200 Speaker 6: very bad places as a democracy. And it's profoundly cynical. 866 00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:40,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I mean, and that's how we. 867 00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:42,160 Speaker 6: Got here, That's how we got here. And Romney rejected 868 00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:42,640 Speaker 6: that sentences. 869 00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:46,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's an interesting to see him go out this way. 870 00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:50,800 Speaker 1: I mean, good for McKay coppins, but it's interesting. And 871 00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:54,960 Speaker 1: his total and utter disdain for JD. Vance is a 872 00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:56,200 Speaker 1: little bit of a bright smack. 873 00:45:58,000 --> 00:45:59,919 Speaker 6: I mean, the other thing to think to keep in mind, 874 00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:05,000 Speaker 6: just from Romney's perspective is I said that his campaign 875 00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:08,360 Speaker 6: for president was sort of an unhappy moment in his life, 876 00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:12,080 Speaker 6: then the most unhappy moment is political history. Is that 877 00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:16,800 Speaker 6: humiliating interview where Trump brings him in and then rejects it. 878 00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:19,360 Speaker 6: And so in another way, you could almost think of 879 00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:22,200 Speaker 6: it as, given all that Romney has accomplished, and given 880 00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:24,360 Speaker 6: that he really does seem to have multiple interests in 881 00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:27,120 Speaker 6: his life, in some ways, the question might be why 882 00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:29,480 Speaker 6: did he even run for the Senate? And the answer 883 00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:32,719 Speaker 6: is he now has a last chapter that isn't being 884 00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:37,240 Speaker 6: humiliated by Donald Trump, and isn't losing the presidential election. 885 00:46:37,719 --> 00:46:41,160 Speaker 6: He has a last chapter that's different and more positive, 886 00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:43,719 Speaker 6: and having done that, he can now go off and 887 00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:46,240 Speaker 6: leave behind the madness of the Senate. 888 00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:49,000 Speaker 2: David, thank you so much for joining us. This is 889 00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:49,720 Speaker 2: really great. 890 00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:50,600 Speaker 3: Thank you, Mollie. 891 00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:53,440 Speaker 2: It's always fun. 892 00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:54,680 Speaker 3: Moment. 893 00:46:56,360 --> 00:47:01,880 Speaker 1: Rick Wilson, Madame, what is your moment of fuckery? You 894 00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:04,040 Speaker 1: want me to go first with my moment of fuckery? 895 00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:05,640 Speaker 3: Give me your moment of fuckery first. 896 00:47:06,040 --> 00:47:12,160 Speaker 1: My moment of fuckery is Kevin McCarthy, believing that he 897 00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:15,480 Speaker 1: has done it, has avoided a shut down, only to 898 00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:19,080 Speaker 1: have Matt Gates immediately say he's. 899 00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:20,600 Speaker 2: Gonna remove him, and then to have. 900 00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:24,560 Speaker 1: Kevin McCarthy say you fucking try it, and that use 901 00:47:24,600 --> 00:47:31,040 Speaker 1: of profanities and his rage against my favorite botox user, 902 00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:33,120 Speaker 1: and I say, this is a botox user myself. 903 00:47:33,160 --> 00:47:35,760 Speaker 2: Matt Gates is a my moment of fuckery. 904 00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:39,200 Speaker 3: I gotta be honest. That's a solid moment of fuckery. Okay, 905 00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:42,160 Speaker 3: Matt will betray him. You know, it's like Trump's fucking 906 00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:45,800 Speaker 3: snake poem he always reads, Matt will bite Kevin McCarthy 907 00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:48,000 Speaker 3: on the dick when this is over, and it will 908 00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:50,760 Speaker 3: kill him. The poison will kill him. My monive fuckery 909 00:47:51,239 --> 00:47:56,960 Speaker 3: is suddenly and this sweeping number of stories that are 910 00:47:57,000 --> 00:47:59,719 Speaker 3: appearing in the last five or six days across the 911 00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:03,000 Speaker 3: main stream media and the smart set, all like Biden 912 00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:05,640 Speaker 3: must go. He is too old, We must replace him now. 913 00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:09,800 Speaker 3: None of you fucking people have thought this through weirdly. Okay, 914 00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:12,920 Speaker 3: let's say Biden is tottering along. He's still apparently in 915 00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:16,320 Speaker 3: the room, pretty freaking sharp. Maybe he doesn't run across 916 00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:18,040 Speaker 3: the oval to the helicopter anymore. 917 00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:20,120 Speaker 2: But you know what, neither just Trump. 918 00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:24,120 Speaker 3: It's the choice right now between old and evil make 919 00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:27,640 Speaker 3: the right choice. So all this like this, like conventional 920 00:48:27,640 --> 00:48:30,680 Speaker 3: wisdom coverage right now that everyone's racing to right there, 921 00:48:30,680 --> 00:48:34,960 Speaker 3: Biden's too old coverage, old versus evil. I'll take old 922 00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:38,160 Speaker 3: every goddamn time. That's why I don't want to fuckery. 923 00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:39,120 Speaker 2: Thank you, Rick. 924 00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:43,600 Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in 925 00:48:43,680 --> 00:48:46,880 Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday to hear the best minds 926 00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:50,120 Speaker 1: in politics makes sense of all this chaos. If you 927 00:48:50,239 --> 00:48:52,920 Speaker 1: enjoyed what you've heard, please send it to a friend 928 00:48:52,960 --> 00:48:56,520 Speaker 1: and keep the conversation going. And again, thanks for listening.