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Speaker 1: Clemente Shorty Aguire grew up in Honduras, but in two

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Speaker 1: thousand and one, when rival street gangs demanded that he

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Speaker 1: pick aside or die, he found himself with no choice

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Speaker 1: but to run. He escaped to the United States, crossing

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Speaker 1: our southern border illegally, and ultimately he found work as

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Speaker 1: a cook, living in Seminole County, Florida, in a trailer park,

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Speaker 1: where he formed friendly ties with various neighbors. But on

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Speaker 1: June seventeenth of two thousand and four, Shorty was hanging

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Speaker 1: out into the wee hours of the morning when he

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Speaker 1: went to his friend Cheryl Williams's trailer to grab a beer,

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Speaker 1: and there he found himself inside of a gruesome crime scene.

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Speaker 1: The trailer had been ransacked and was covered in blood.

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Speaker 1: Cheryl and her mother Carol had been stabbed repeatedly and

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Speaker 1: were dead. He checked the bodies for signs of life,

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Speaker 1: thereby inadvertently tampering with the crime scene. Knowing that nothing

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Speaker 1: would bring them back, and fearing deportation or worse, he

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Speaker 1: chose to stay quiet initially, but later that day Clemente

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Speaker 1: came forward about his discovery his immigration status. An unwitting

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Speaker 1: crime scene tampering made him a prime suspect, and with

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Speaker 1: the deadly combination of an ineffective public defender and the

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Speaker 1: prosecution's tunnel vision, Clemente was convicted and sent to death row.

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Speaker 1: In this episode, recorded at the Innocent Network conference in Atlanta,

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Speaker 1: we speak with Clemente, Shortia Giri, and one of his

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Speaker 1: lead post conviction attorneys, Maria Deliberado, who, along with a

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Speaker 1: list of mostly pro bono private council would properly reinvestigate

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Speaker 1: the crime and test the one hundred and ninety seven

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Speaker 1: pieces of crime scene evidence that had never been tested

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Speaker 1: for DNA, ultimately excluding Clemente. They even found new evidence

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Speaker 1: that would lead to the identity of the woman who

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Speaker 1: was almost certainly the true perpetrator and who confessed to

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Speaker 1: the crime on numerous occasions. Cheryl's own daughter, Samantha Williams.

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Speaker 1: Shorty spent over fourteen long years in prison, most of

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Speaker 1: it on death row, for a crime he simply did

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Speaker 1: not commit. This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction.

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Speaker 1: Today's show is going to take you on a journey

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Speaker 1: that you will probably never forget, and not because of

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Speaker 1: anything I'm going to say, but because of the story

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Speaker 1: you're going to hear. And today we have as our

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Speaker 1: very special guest, Clemente aka Shorty Agia from Honduras, right,

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Speaker 1: who was wrongfully convicted in Florida the double murder and

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Speaker 1: who served fourteen years and four months on death row. Shorty,

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Speaker 1: welcome to Wraful Conviction.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 1: As I always say, I'm sorry you're here, but I'm

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Speaker 1: happy you're here. So you know how that goes, and

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Speaker 1: with him is one of his incredible we'll just call

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Speaker 1: it what it is, dream team of lawyers, Maria Deliberado,

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Speaker 1: which is a great name for lawyer, by the way,

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Speaker 1: not for nothing. It's perfect. And so Maria, welcome to

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Speaker 1: RAF Conviction.

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Speaker 3: Thank you, happy to be here.

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Speaker 1: So Shorty, you were sort of a star in your

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Speaker 1: native country, right, I guess.

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Speaker 2: So you can say that I was very likable, friendly,

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Speaker 2: plays soccer. When I'm singing competition representing in the school.

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Speaker 1: I was told it was like the American Idol of Honduras.

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Speaker 1: Is that right? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: It were called championships and it was between the school

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Speaker 2: so it was knowledge, it was dancing and it was singing.

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Speaker 2: So I performed and I want the first place.

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Speaker 1: Wow, And how old were you?

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Speaker 2: I was ten years old.

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Speaker 1: Ten years old, so amazing start to a crazy journey.

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Speaker 1: And is it true that as a result of you

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Speaker 1: winning this competition, the gangs kind of left you alone

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Speaker 1: for a while, right, for.

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Speaker 2: A little bit, since Sia was going to school those times.

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Speaker 2: It really wasn't Di Stronos Again, in that period of

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Speaker 2: time when growing up and going to high school, I

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Speaker 2: was well known because I played soccer there. But my

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Speaker 2: problem was I live in a neighborhood with a rival gang,

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Speaker 2: and I play and go to school with the other

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Speaker 2: gang had power off. So it was very controversial because

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Speaker 2: one would say I belonged to one and the other

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Speaker 2: one would say I belong to the other one, which

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Speaker 2: it wasn't the case.

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Speaker 1: And in fact, you were able to belong to neither

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Speaker 1: of them because of the status that you enjoyed being

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Speaker 1: sort of this celebrity in your area.

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Speaker 2: Right basically, and because my mother too, she didn't play.

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Speaker 2: And I have this select group of friends. It was

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Speaker 2: seven of us, and it didn't attract to us anything

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Speaker 2: about no game at all.

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Speaker 1: But then, as I understand it, when you got a

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Speaker 1: little older, the gangs, you were going to join the

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Speaker 1: gang or get killed basically, right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they told me they weren't playing. I was harassed

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Speaker 2: and put guns in my face. I live in a

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Speaker 2: neighborhood full of amster teens and I got to go

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Speaker 2: to school where the eighteens lived. So when I get

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Speaker 2: out of the territory from the thirteenth, the eighties grabbed

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Speaker 2: me and made me undress in public to see if

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Speaker 2: I didn't have tattoos belonging to the other game.

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Speaker 1: Ultimately, you decided you had to leave because your life

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Speaker 1: was in danger, right, But what was it that made

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Speaker 1: you Because that's a big step to leave your country,

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Speaker 1: and it's a very important story to tell right now,

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Speaker 1: especially right with what's going on in this country, because

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Speaker 1: you had a crazy journey ahead of you. But what

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Speaker 1: was it that happened?

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Speaker 2: Well, it was in two thousand and one January of

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Speaker 2: February around there. I was with my Beyonce to be

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Speaker 2: at a moment and the taxi pull up in front

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Speaker 2: of my house. I'm sitting down outside and they got

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Speaker 2: this raincoat, this long rail black coat, and put an

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Speaker 2: AK forty seven and put it in my face. The

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Speaker 2: drivers stepped down and say, we ain't playing no more.

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Speaker 2: TikTok TikTok. In that particular moment in time, my mom

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Speaker 2: came out at the door and say, what you're doing.

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Speaker 2: I said, Mom, go inside. What good dude, She is

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Speaker 2: out here and I got to gone on my page

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Speaker 2: and my girlfriend is holding me for their life and

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Speaker 2: I'm like, come down. So they left, and then you say,

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Speaker 2: TikTok TikTok mean the clock is running. You need to

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Speaker 2: tie up and join all else. In December, a few

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Speaker 2: months back, they killed one of my best friends because

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Speaker 2: he didn't want to join AH. They killed him on

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Speaker 2: December twenty, two thousand, so it was very, very scary.

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Speaker 2: My mother said, you go to your grandma. They sent

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Speaker 2: me to Nicaraga and then Nicaragua is no place to live.

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Speaker 2: It's like it's more poverty. They wasn't Honduras. So in

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Speaker 2: two thousand and two, my sisters came from the United

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Speaker 2: States already with her residence and we went from there.

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Speaker 2: I need to come to the United States. I cannot

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Speaker 2: live in Nicaraga for poverty. I cannot live in my

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Speaker 2: native country because if I don't join again, they will

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Speaker 2: kill me. So the only way I got out of

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Speaker 2: here is go to the United States.

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Speaker 1: Already, everything you've been through is enough for someone to

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Speaker 1: go through. But this isn't even the beginning. How did

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Speaker 1: you get from Nicaragua all the way to eventually swimming

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Speaker 1: across the Rio Grande.

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Speaker 2: I came to Mexico and I buy some papers and

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Speaker 2: I learned a national antern of Mexico and history. I

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Speaker 2: lived there for a couple of months, and I flew

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Speaker 2: to Mexico City and there to New Laredo, and from

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Speaker 2: there I went to a bar where when I got in,

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Speaker 2: there as this coyot. Back then it was coyote. You say,

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Speaker 2: it was no cartels and stuff like that, passing people

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Speaker 2: and these coyote is to say, okay, you have sixteen

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Speaker 2: hundred dollars on you, No, but I can call. So

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Speaker 2: we arrange that here is going to pass me through

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Speaker 2: all the way to Laddo, Texas. So he wanted me

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Speaker 2: to swim with this they did. They go inside the

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Speaker 2: tire like inner two right. So because he asking me,

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Speaker 2: can you swim? And this moment in time, I feel

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Speaker 2: like I'm the micro fellow the river. I didn't know

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Speaker 2: how big real grand there really was. You see, I'm

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Speaker 2: picturing a river that is just like my Grandma's.

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Speaker 1: Like a stream.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's something that you can pass in

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Speaker 2: two minutes. I never thought I was gonna take me

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Speaker 2: seventeen minutes almost to pass the river across that I

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Speaker 2: almost drowned and there, you know. So he told us

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Speaker 2: the take you close off, so we did, but we

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Speaker 2: keep the underwear on. When he turned back and like,

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Speaker 2: what you're doing. This isn't no gay shit, teed you

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Speaker 2: underwere off because when you run you need to be dry.

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Speaker 2: If you wed, it's gonna it's gonna hurt you and

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Speaker 2: it's gonna sload you down. Believe me, I'm doing this

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Speaker 2: for a long time. So we did. Put it in

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Speaker 2: a plastic bat, put in my mouth, start swimming. We

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Speaker 2: make it to the other side. Somehow, God only he

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Speaker 2: could help me to pass through that river because it

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Speaker 2: was so strong and we'd write off. He say, every

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Speaker 2: paper that you have, every picture that you have, throw

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Speaker 2: it away, every money that you have, throw it away.

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Speaker 2: You cannot bring anything with you to the United States

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Speaker 2: unless it's American dollars. I didn't have any American dollars,

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Speaker 2: so you know, it was fifty pests of Mexico. So

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Speaker 2: I throw it away, and he said, when I tell

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Speaker 2: you so, follow me and run. When we make it

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Speaker 2: to the other side, it was like ninety five people

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Speaker 2: in there, you know, females, men, you own, people from Ecuador, Columbia,

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Speaker 2: Costa Rica, you name it. So we saw immigration car

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Speaker 2: pass by and then another one and you may say,

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Speaker 2: I am waiting here. We're taken off. So I'm taking

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Speaker 2: after him because he got my money. So I'm thinking

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Speaker 2: I cannot let him go away with my money. You know,

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Speaker 2: how am I going to make it to the other side.

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Speaker 2: And this moment in time, I'm in the United States,

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Speaker 2: but I haven't made it to civilization yet. We take

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Speaker 2: off running. I wasn't thirty second and we hear helicopters,

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Speaker 2: police cars, dogs and sirens saying stop stop, but we're

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Speaker 2: going to shoot. We hear some shots at this moment

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Speaker 2: in time, everybody has take off running two and I'm

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Speaker 2: running right next to this guy. So I'm running and

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Speaker 2: I'm asking him where to where to he didn't tell me,

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Speaker 2: and where to because I think I can run him.

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Speaker 2: I really believe I can run him. I'm so desperate

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Speaker 2: to pass back. So it's some shots. I don't think

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Speaker 2: they were shouting at us. I think they were shouting

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Speaker 2: to the airth so people get scared or whatever. But

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Speaker 2: that's all I hear in my neighborhood. So they really

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Speaker 2: didn't call me anymore. It was I'm so used to

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Speaker 2: or I was so used to. We make it to defence,

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Speaker 2: and by the time we're going to jump the fence.

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Speaker 2: I used to feel this hand in my hand and say, senor,

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Speaker 2: please my son. It was this woman running next to

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Speaker 2: me with a child in her hand, so I grabbed

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Speaker 2: the kid. I give it to the next guy. I

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Speaker 2: push her up and then I jumped. We went to

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Speaker 2: a house call. My sister went to Houston. From Houston,

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Speaker 2: came to my sister house March eighteen, six fifteen in

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Speaker 2: the morning, three months, sixteen day after I was out

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Speaker 2: of my house.

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Speaker 1: Three months and sixteen days. Starting in Nicarago.

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Speaker 2: Right, started from Honduras January second, all the way to

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Speaker 2: March eighteen, two thousand and three.

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Speaker 1: And you ended up in Florida in a little town.

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Speaker 2: Right, yes, and Altamond Spring.

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Speaker 1: So you end up in Florida. You got a job? Right?

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Speaker 2: Yes? My bos saw me cording law and shaving some

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Speaker 2: kind of palms, and he led the way I work.

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Speaker 2: So he offered me a job as a discwatcher for

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Speaker 2: a couple of months. And one day the cooks were

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Speaker 2: really busy, so my mom teached me how to cooks.

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Speaker 2: And I was six seven years old and everybody was busy,

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Speaker 2: and they saw me cooking for me. So my boss

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Speaker 2: saw and say, oh, okay, so you can cut, you

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Speaker 2: can prep. I think you're going to be good in

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Speaker 2: the prep line. So they may may do salads, bread

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Speaker 2: and prep everything for the line cooks.

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Speaker 1: So now you're moving up in the world a little

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Speaker 1: bit at a time, right, going from the cutting trees

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Speaker 1: or whatever, to the to the kitchen and now doing

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Speaker 1: the prep work and starting to use your skills that

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Speaker 1: you had developed as a cook. So things are looking

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Speaker 1: up right, right? And where were you living?

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Speaker 2: I moved from my sister and Ultimate Sprint into Longwood

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Speaker 2: and the trailer park.

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Speaker 1: And for thirty four, the trailer park is a very

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Speaker 1: important role in this story. This is where the shit

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Speaker 1: really hits the fan. Maria, do you want to sort

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Speaker 1: of set the table here, because you've worked on this

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Speaker 1: case for ten years, you know every single detail of

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Speaker 1: what happened.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, I mean, I don't even really know where to

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Speaker 3: start at. I mean, I used to be a prosecutor

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Speaker 3: actually before I did criminal defense thirteen years ago. And

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Speaker 3: so from that perspective, getting this case, the fact that

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Speaker 3: they saw him as the suspect shut their eyes to

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Speaker 3: any possible other alternative is to me the biggest travesty here.

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Speaker 3: But I'll sort of set the stage, I guess, in

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Speaker 3: the sense of he was living next door to the victims.

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Speaker 3: It was a trailer part on Vagabond Way, and that

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Speaker 3: was the name of the street, and he had socialized

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Speaker 3: with them on more than one occasion.

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Speaker 1: And this was a woman, her mother and her daughter

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Speaker 1: living together in this trailer.

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Speaker 3: That's correct, yes, And Clemente lived with two other men

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Speaker 3: about his age. They were both cousins and so they

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Speaker 3: were about the same age as the daughter. And her

254
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Speaker 3: brother also lived in the trailer for periods of time,

255
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Speaker 3: so sort of all people of his age Clemente at

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Speaker 3: the time. Obviously you can hear him today speaking English.

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Speaker 3: He didn't speak any English back then. He taught himself

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Speaker 3: English in prison, which is a great story that he

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Speaker 3: does need to tell at some point. How he taught

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Speaker 3: himself English. It's one of my favorite stories that he tells.

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Speaker 3: But he didn't speak any English then, but you know,

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Speaker 3: he was able to communicate enough with them. They shared parties,

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Speaker 3: they shared drinks, sort of a friendly neighborhood scene. The

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Speaker 3: day that he was arrested, the mother and grandmother were killed,

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Speaker 3: and the morning that their bodies were discovered, Mnde had

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Speaker 3: gone there in the morning as he often did. He

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Speaker 3: had been out with friends the night before. They always

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Speaker 3: were known to have lots and lots of beer. If

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Speaker 3: you look at the crime scene video, I mean there

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Speaker 3: was just thousands and thousands of cans. And in Florida,

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Speaker 3: alcohol is sold in all the grocery stores, but not

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Speaker 3: until certain hours. So the grocery store wasn't open yet.

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Speaker 3: And Clemente was, you know, in his early twenties. We

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Speaker 3: can all remember what it's like to be able to

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Speaker 3: party all night in your early twenties. And he had

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Speaker 3: finished a hard day's work and was letting list with

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Speaker 3: some friends and wanted to keep the party going. So

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Speaker 3: he had just gone over there for a beer, as

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Speaker 3: he had done many times. They had an open door policy.

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Speaker 1: Sorry, people, let's start over to you climent day because

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Speaker 1: this is such a nightmare. I mean, I've told your

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Speaker 1: story so many times, but you actually lived it. So

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Speaker 1: can you take us back to that day.

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Speaker 2: I've been drinking all day. I'm going to go home,

285
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Speaker 2: and I went home, but I want another beer, so

286
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Speaker 2: I went inside and I didn't find this. So it's

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Speaker 2: why I wait until daytime to go to the next

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Speaker 2: door and ask for a beer, like I had done

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Speaker 2: dozens the time before.

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Speaker 1: What time was it when you went over.

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Speaker 2: To It was like six something in the morning.

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Speaker 1: Six in the morning, right, And so you went over

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Speaker 1: there as you've done so many times, to scoop up

294
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Speaker 1: a few more beers whatever, Right, what did you encounter

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Speaker 1: when you got there?

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Speaker 2: I turned knocked the door, but when I touched it,

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Speaker 2: a push open, but it didn't open all the way.

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Speaker 2: Strange because I've been in the house. I mean, if

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Speaker 2: I want to give you a number over seven hundred times, right,

300
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Speaker 2: so I know that door opened all the way and

301
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Speaker 2: this time didn't. So I push it and it it

302
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Speaker 2: didn't go further than what it was. So I look,

303
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Speaker 2: it was like a little window and I saw Cherry

304
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Speaker 2: Williams there body. This was the mom that was the mother, Yes,

305
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Speaker 2: Samantha's mother, Yes, And Carol daughter.

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Speaker 1: So you saw the body. So that's why they couldn't

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Speaker 1: open the door because the body.

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Speaker 2: Was blocking it was blocking it, yes, sir, right.

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Speaker 1: And so now you see the body, but is there

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Speaker 1: blood everywhere? Or what's the first thing that you.

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Speaker 2: Her body is there. I just jump immediately inside without thinking, right,

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Speaker 2: and she was too close to by the door, so

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Speaker 2: I had to close the door and touch her dress

314
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Speaker 2: looking for a pose. So I said, I'm too drunk

315
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Speaker 2: that I don't feel it. So I picked her up

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Speaker 2: and put it on the top of my legs into

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Speaker 2: her neck because in the position she was, I couldn't

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Speaker 2: touch her neck. And a moment and asked her to

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Speaker 2: wake up, and she didn't.

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Speaker 1: At this point, did you see there was blood and

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Speaker 1: there was.

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Speaker 2: Yes, everywhere. Now it's like a horror movie scene. So

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Speaker 2: I'm asking somebody here, and I find the grandmother of

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Speaker 2: her wheelchair almost under the table, so I want to

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Speaker 2: touch her too. She was dead and I heard this

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Speaker 2: noise and I'm asking somebody here, And with that I

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Speaker 2: walked in the house and my footprints were there, and

328
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Speaker 2: it was it was crazy.

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Speaker 1: You found the murder weapon, right, I did?

330
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Speaker 2: I did? I saw it when I saw the first victim.

331
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Speaker 2: It was on the top of a beer box, but

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Speaker 2: I didn't touch it. Then I touched until I heard

333
00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:01,800
Speaker 2: the noise later that I was a dog there. But

334
00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:05,680
Speaker 2: I know I'm crazy. I heard a noise. So anyway,

335
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Speaker 2: I went and grabbed a knife like like a domas

336
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Speaker 2: and uh, asking somebody here. And I walked and I

337
00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:21,920
Speaker 2: went to Samantha's bedroom and everything was everywhere in the house.

338
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Speaker 2: Chair would flowed down, clothes was everywhere. Everything was like

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Speaker 2: a like a hura camp passed by there and then

340
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Speaker 2: I walked to the next room, but I think went

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Speaker 2: in there because I found Cherry already. So I said,

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Speaker 2: oh my god, what am I going to do? So

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Speaker 2: I took off running. They got running again.

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Speaker 1: This is a really bad scenario on every level. I mean,

345
00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:03,960
Speaker 1: you've got now the murder victim's blood on you, right,

346
00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:06,720
Speaker 1: because you've been trying to help them, trying to check

347
00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:09,680
Speaker 1: and see if they're alive. Obviously that was hopeless because

348
00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:13,640
Speaker 1: they were dead. You've got your fingerprints on the knife

349
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Speaker 1: right because you picked up thet I mean, it couldn't

350
00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:20,840
Speaker 1: be any worse. You can't make it harder for your lawyers,

351
00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:23,480
Speaker 1: right in this case. I mean, this is circumstantial levidence.

352
00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:27,120
Speaker 1: It doesn't get much worse than that. And I'm sure

353
00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:29,359
Speaker 1: when it eventually came to your arrest, they must have

354
00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:31,520
Speaker 1: looked at it like, okay, well so you don't really

355
00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:33,400
Speaker 1: have to work too hard on this one. We got

356
00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:36,280
Speaker 1: this guy dead to rights? Well what did you do?

357
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Speaker 1: So now you you ran? What did you run too?

358
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Speaker 2: I ran to mahause I'm debating. Am I going to

359
00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:49,000
Speaker 2: call the policeman? And the person I'm debating is, I

360
00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:54,720
Speaker 2: know the police officer arrest you, they call immigration on you.

361
00:19:56,280 --> 00:20:03,560
Speaker 2: It's a fact, so they I mean, and now I'm

362
00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:06,800
Speaker 2: going to be deported for it. So I know I

363
00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:10,800
Speaker 2: didn't do nothing wrong, even though everything sounds wrong so far,

364
00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:16,000
Speaker 2: I didn't kill nobody anyway. So I took a shower

365
00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:20,159
Speaker 2: and I'm like, I can't go police. I decided against

366
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Speaker 2: it because I don't want to be deported. It was

367
00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:26,320
Speaker 2: my fear. That was my fear, and like you didn't

368
00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:30,560
Speaker 2: have fear because I'm running from my life. You know,

369
00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:33,679
Speaker 2: I'm running for my life. I don't want to be

370
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Speaker 2: killed in my country because I don't want to be

371
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Speaker 2: a criminal.

372
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Speaker 1: Right, what an irony? Right? You were running away from

373
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Speaker 1: the criminals to come here to start a better life.

374
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Speaker 1: And now now you're going to be accused of a

375
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Speaker 1: crime that you didn't commit in the first place. And

376
00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:52,560
Speaker 1: the options are all bad. Right, You're either going to

377
00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:55,480
Speaker 1: go and get deported or you're going to get convicted.

378
00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:57,600
Speaker 1: I mean, you must have known as well that things

379
00:20:57,600 --> 00:20:59,280
Speaker 1: were looking pretty bad. If you call the police the

380
00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:02,520
Speaker 1: first person that suspect. We know that in general in

381
00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:05,439
Speaker 1: many cases anyway, the person who finds the body is

382
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Speaker 1: the person they rely.

383
00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:11,639
Speaker 2: But honestly speaking, I wasn't afraid they are going to

384
00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:15,600
Speaker 2: be accused of the murder. I really wasn't, because I

385
00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:18,639
Speaker 2: know I didn't do it. I was more afraid that

386
00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:22,360
Speaker 2: if I completely going to put so what happened for sure.

387
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Speaker 4: So, I mean, he can tell it as well.

388
00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:27,960
Speaker 3: But the police eventually came because Samantha's boyfriend, which we'll

389
00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:30,960
Speaker 3: later get to in more detail, actually was told by

390
00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:33,360
Speaker 3: Samantha to come to the house that morning to get

391
00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:35,960
Speaker 3: her laundry out of the dryer was the purported reason,

392
00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:38,560
Speaker 3: or out of the washer, and to check on her

393
00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:41,520
Speaker 3: mom and grandmother because she had a bad feeling. So

394
00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:44,720
Speaker 3: he comes to the scene about nine am, he finds

395
00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:47,679
Speaker 3: a bod easy of course, calls nine one one and

396
00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:48,560
Speaker 3: then the police come.

397
00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:50,600
Speaker 4: So by a couple of hours go by.

398
00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:53,080
Speaker 3: The police are there and you know, normally they're knocking

399
00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:56,240
Speaker 3: their canvassing the neighborhood. So they knock on the door

400
00:21:56,400 --> 00:22:00,480
Speaker 3: of Clementeg's trailer, and first knock on the door, they didn't.

401
00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:01,080
Speaker 4: They just said, we.

402
00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:02,640
Speaker 2: Don't know anything, We don't know anything.

403
00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:05,800
Speaker 3: And the police that knocked on his door nobody spoke Spanish,

404
00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:08,440
Speaker 3: so they were all English speaking, and everybody in Clemente's

405
00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:11,679
Speaker 3: house then only spoke Spanish, so there's also a language barrier.

406
00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:13,879
Speaker 3: And then later in the day, I mean, Clemente can

407
00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:16,639
Speaker 3: tell you why he felt compelled to come forward and

408
00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:18,639
Speaker 3: then sort of how that backfired on him. When he

409
00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:21,720
Speaker 3: came forward and tried to tell what happened, as you said,

410
00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:25,280
Speaker 3: they immediately were like, great, we've got our guy, and

411
00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:29,119
Speaker 3: they just started accusing him of murder pretty immediately and

412
00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:33,440
Speaker 3: threatening him. There was a female Spanish speaking detective finally

413
00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:36,920
Speaker 3: who came unseen, and Clemente wanted to talk to her.

414
00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:39,240
Speaker 3: He felt like he could trust her with the full story.

415
00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:42,400
Speaker 2: I came forward, I say, this is the best country

416
00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:44,480
Speaker 2: in the world. I'm telling the truth, but they're going

417
00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:47,800
Speaker 2: to investigate and they're going to find out the true eventually.

418
00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:50,560
Speaker 2: So I went in. I say I found in there,

419
00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:54,479
Speaker 2: you know. And soon I say that I need to

420
00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:58,040
Speaker 2: speak with somebody who Spanish. And it was two people

421
00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:03,399
Speaker 2: behind her telling her get him gidding. When I asked

422
00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:08,280
Speaker 2: her to talk along, the investigator told me if you

423
00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:11,679
Speaker 2: touch her, I'm fuck you up. I don't know what

424
00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:14,679
Speaker 2: that would mean, but the fish that he put in

425
00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:17,879
Speaker 2: my face told me everything I need to know. And

426
00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:23,119
Speaker 2: I'm looking crazy and I say, no, no, I'm not

427
00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:24,040
Speaker 2: going to do anything.

428
00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:27,159
Speaker 3: It also probably should be noted Clemente got his shorty

429
00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:32,200
Speaker 3: nickname because he's four foot eleven. So not exactly you're threatening,

430
00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:34,480
Speaker 3: imposing criminal.

431
00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:36,159
Speaker 1: But also you have such a sort of a sweet

432
00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:38,720
Speaker 1: gentle face. I mean, like if I was three feet eleven,

433
00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:40,240
Speaker 1: I wouldn't be scared of you, you know what I mean?

434
00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:43,359
Speaker 2: Like right, So they bring me this investigator and soon

435
00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:46,840
Speaker 2: I tell him about the first victim. He started kissing

436
00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:49,960
Speaker 2: me or rape. I know I didn't break nobody. I

437
00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:52,879
Speaker 2: know I didn't kill nobody. So I told him, well,

438
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:57,520
Speaker 2: he mentioned something like I don't need you to finish

439
00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:01,439
Speaker 2: or have an orgasom in her. I just need you

440
00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:05,080
Speaker 2: to penetrate her. And I got your DNA. I said,

441
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:09,840
Speaker 2: go for it. They my DNA because I know I'm innocent.

442
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:13,359
Speaker 2: But there was a swap there. They took your fingernails,

443
00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:17,600
Speaker 2: then my fingernails, and she went to deep. I believe now,

444
00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:19,960
Speaker 2: and nobody can take me out of this. She was

445
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:20,760
Speaker 2: trying to cut me.

446
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:24,000
Speaker 3: When they took his fingertiped swabs they do the scrapings,

447
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:25,600
Speaker 3: they like jammed it under his nail.

448
00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:28,119
Speaker 2: She went way too deep. So you can see it's like,

449
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:30,160
Speaker 2: do you have to describe a little bit. You don't

450
00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:32,880
Speaker 2: have to go to deep. They always dis short always

451
00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:36,160
Speaker 2: because I work in the kitchen, so you know, I'm

452
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:38,440
Speaker 2: always with sure nails and short hair.

453
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:41,200
Speaker 1: Or you think they were trying to cut him, because.

454
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:44,119
Speaker 3: I think the perception that he tells the story was

455
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:46,679
Speaker 3: there was a lot of hatred and animosity from the

456
00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:49,480
Speaker 3: police from the beginning towards him because he was not

457
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:53,280
Speaker 3: in this country legally, because they believed that he murdered

458
00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:55,919
Speaker 3: these two women, one of them in a wheelchair, and

459
00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:58,240
Speaker 3: so they just treated him. You know, this whole theme

460
00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:01,160
Speaker 3: of the conference that we're attending is presumption of innocence,

461
00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:02,840
Speaker 3: and there was none of that for Clemente.

462
00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:06,240
Speaker 1: Right. And just for context, we're recording in a conference

463
00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:10,240
Speaker 1: room in Atlanta where the Innocence Network conference is being held.

464
00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:13,440
Speaker 1: So there's an amazing, amazing group here of over two

465
00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:19,919
Speaker 1: hundred exannarees and hundreds of lawyers and social workers and activists,

466
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:23,400
Speaker 1: and it's an amazing, amazing place to be. And as

467
00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:27,399
Speaker 1: you said, the theme is presumption of innocence, which is well,

468
00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:31,560
Speaker 1: it's part of American jurisprudence, it's in the constitution, right,

469
00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:34,159
Speaker 1: but it doesn't actually work the way it's supposed to,

470
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:35,520
Speaker 1: and certainly didn't in this case.

471
00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:35,879
Speaker 3: Right.

472
00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:38,320
Speaker 1: So they interrogate you, you didn't have a lawyer with you

473
00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:39,080
Speaker 1: at the time.

474
00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:41,480
Speaker 2: At that moment in time, I'll say, on your lawyer, right,

475
00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:42,320
Speaker 2: do nothing.

476
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:45,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's a common thing. I mean, you'd be

477
00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:47,760
Speaker 1: surprised how many people, even people who grew up in

478
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:51,880
Speaker 1: America who maybe have higher education degrees or whatever, they

479
00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:53,399
Speaker 1: think the same thing. Well, if I just go in

480
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:55,720
Speaker 1: and tell the truth. But when you get an adversarial

481
00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:59,040
Speaker 1: situation like you were in, it changes very quickly and

482
00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:01,719
Speaker 1: people are not expecting it. You had no reason to

483
00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:05,119
Speaker 1: expect it. But that's exactly what happened. And so at

484
00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:08,359
Speaker 1: what point did did you become aware that you are

485
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:11,880
Speaker 1: now looking at the potential of being well arrested, tried,

486
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:14,920
Speaker 1: and convicted. I wish even sentenced to death.

487
00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:18,160
Speaker 2: A week later, they come and take my fingerprints and

488
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:22,359
Speaker 2: they told me they found my left pump print in

489
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:26,760
Speaker 2: the knife, which I say, it's impossible, and say, how

490
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:30,600
Speaker 2: come you touched the knife? Yeah, but I'm right handed.

491
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:33,720
Speaker 2: I'm not going to grab a knife with my left hand.

492
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 2: So they charmed me with murder and they told me

493
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:40,399
Speaker 2: we're going to be asking for the dead penalty, as

494
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:42,679
Speaker 2: the state to ask for the dead penalty, send you

495
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:43,360
Speaker 2: to death row.

496
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:47,879
Speaker 1: You've now been arrested. You're locked up in the local jail.

497
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:49,679
Speaker 2: Assume yeah, Seminal County.

498
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:52,439
Speaker 1: How long did it take from that point to go

499
00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:52,959
Speaker 1: to trial?

500
00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:54,240
Speaker 2: Twenty two months?

501
00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:56,119
Speaker 1: So you're in jail for twenty two months, Yes.

502
00:26:55,960 --> 00:27:00,120
Speaker 2: Sir, Seminal County jail in sam for got to be

503
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:04,040
Speaker 2: one of the most disgusting places to be at. The

504
00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:08,800
Speaker 2: food is terrible because it's private. You see seven the

505
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:11,120
Speaker 2: county is private, so they run it the way they

506
00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:13,359
Speaker 2: want to. They beat you up, they put you in

507
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:14,919
Speaker 2: a place, but it's the camera. They beat you up.

508
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:19,080
Speaker 5: Anything and all that happened to you, all that happened

509
00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:24,399
Speaker 5: to me because you were the most notorious guy in

510
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:25,360
Speaker 5: the jail at this time.

511
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 1: Right, your name is in the papers. You're accused of

512
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:31,640
Speaker 1: a double murder or an illegal immigrant. You got the whole, you.

513
00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:36,000
Speaker 2: Know, because of this brown little guy who apparently killed

514
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:41,399
Speaker 2: two white people. By the time I got taken the trial,

515
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:46,920
Speaker 2: I was found guilty in one hour fifteen minutes maybe

516
00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:49,000
Speaker 2: the jury the jury user.

517
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:51,280
Speaker 1: The jury was out for an hour and fifteen minutes.

518
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:54,359
Speaker 2: The trial last maybe four five days, I mean the

519
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 2: criminal trial. The sentence in like another four days around

520
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:00,600
Speaker 2: there in Florida.

521
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:03,120
Speaker 4: The penalty phase in the guilt phase or separate.

522
00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:05,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's two different trials basically.

523
00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:07,040
Speaker 1: So who represented you a trial?

524
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:09,520
Speaker 2: The public defender's officer Semino Comi.

525
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:14,960
Speaker 1: And did they mount any kind of a defense.

526
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:20,040
Speaker 2: No, whatsoever, no defense. They did present a case on

527
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:23,159
Speaker 2: my he did it because he drunk, He did it

528
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:26,080
Speaker 2: because he did he didn't you know, I didn't do nothing.

529
00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:28,199
Speaker 2: You're trying to kill me for something I didn't do.

530
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:30,640
Speaker 2: I didn't do nothing. I am not going to take

531
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:35,600
Speaker 2: this to me. It was not conceivable that I am't

532
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:38,880
Speaker 2: going to accept you calling me a killer. And I'm

533
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:40,760
Speaker 2: there and I'm not going to stand. Doesn't call you

534
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:45,680
Speaker 2: a liar, even you my attorney. I don't care. I

535
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:48,280
Speaker 2: didn't do nothing, so you don't believe me. After you

536
00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:49,520
Speaker 2: he never believed me.

537
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:49,720
Speaker 1: Man.

538
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:52,120
Speaker 2: He didn't talk to nobody. I wasn't about until three

539
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:54,720
Speaker 2: thirty in the morning, with like thirty two people. He

540
00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:57,120
Speaker 2: didn't talk to no one of them. What you were white,

541
00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 2: I wasn't a bar before we went to my friend's

542
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:04,320
Speaker 2: house right with the three thirty in the morning. Because

543
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:06,360
Speaker 2: back then they were saying I did a crying three

544
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:10,080
Speaker 2: something in the morning, you see, then they changed it

545
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:11,600
Speaker 2: to in the morning.

546
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:14,040
Speaker 3: They never really were able to pin down the time

547
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:16,400
Speaker 3: of death because they were relying on Samantha and Mark

548
00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:18,880
Speaker 3: VanZant who said they saw the victims last alive at

549
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:20,400
Speaker 3: about eleven thirty and.

550
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:22,480
Speaker 4: Then they were found by Mark VanZant at nine.

551
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:25,720
Speaker 3: So the state was never able to really pin down

552
00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:27,720
Speaker 3: the time of death, so they just fit it to

553
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:30,680
Speaker 3: the time when Clemente had said he went in there,

554
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:34,400
Speaker 3: but he did have a solid alibi until three thirty

555
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:36,360
Speaker 3: in the morning. He was at a local bar. It

556
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:39,320
Speaker 3: was actually me who went into that bar for the

557
00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:44,040
Speaker 3: first time in probably two thy and ten or so.

558
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 3: I mean, it's just inmfathomable to me that as a

559
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 3: criminal defense attorney, your client tells you where they were,

560
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:51,520
Speaker 3: you know, in the preceding twenty four hours, and you

561
00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:54,080
Speaker 3: don't even walk into the bar to see like, hey,

562
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 3: was he here? Is there anybody that we can talk to?

563
00:29:57,320 --> 00:29:59,280
Speaker 3: And I mean when I went in in twenty ten,

564
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:01,840
Speaker 3: so this is my you. Six years after the murder.

565
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:03,920
Speaker 3: It was a Saturday morning. I went in with my

566
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:06,880
Speaker 3: investigator and kind of like sat down at the bars,

567
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:07,800
Speaker 3: maybe eleven thirty.

568
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:09,320
Speaker 4: We didn't tell anyone we were coming.

569
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 3: We just went and the bartenders like, you know, can

570
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:15,040
Speaker 3: I help you? And we said, you know, we're looking

571
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:18,320
Speaker 3: for Bob Buntruk, who was the owner. She said, oh,

572
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:20,080
Speaker 3: he's not here, you know, can I help you? I said, well,

573
00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:23,080
Speaker 3: I represent Clemente Gary And it was like time stood still.

574
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:24,600
Speaker 3: I thought she was going to drop the glass she

575
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:28,160
Speaker 3: was holding. She was like, thank God, somebody is finally

576
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 3: helping him. I know he didn't do it, and to

577
00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:34,600
Speaker 3: walk into a place six years later and get that

578
00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:37,520
Speaker 3: kind of reaction for me as the lawyer handling his

579
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:40,400
Speaker 3: case was just stunning, And she gave us a treasure

580
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:44,360
Speaker 3: trove of information that actually led us to who ultimately

581
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 3: is the actual pillar in this case.

582
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:48,280
Speaker 1: So yeah, and that's I'm getting the chill just thinking

583
00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:50,600
Speaker 1: about that. What a moment. It's very cinematic the way

584
00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:52,160
Speaker 1: you described it, but yeah, I mean it must have

585
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:55,480
Speaker 1: really weighed on the people who knew you and knew

586
00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:57,560
Speaker 1: that you didn't do it, to be walking around with

587
00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:00,800
Speaker 1: that knowledge and yet knowing that you're on death row

588
00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:02,360
Speaker 1: and felt helpless.

589
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:04,440
Speaker 3: You know, there was no avenue for them because there

590
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:07,440
Speaker 3: was no investigation by either the prosecution or the defense.

591
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:10,400
Speaker 3: I mean, it's just a complete collapse of the adversarials.

592
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:14,480
Speaker 2: This particular lady who talked to her name is Jamie,

593
00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:19,280
Speaker 2: and she was across the street almost in front of

594
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:22,840
Speaker 2: Samantha's house until fight something in the morning and I

595
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:24,360
Speaker 2: haven't make it home yet.

596
00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:29,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, so she actually ended up albying him until you know,

597
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:31,040
Speaker 3: five point thirty or and sort of albuying the house

598
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:32,160
Speaker 3: until then because.

599
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:34,040
Speaker 2: I haven't made it home yet she was from Peter

600
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:37,600
Speaker 2: resent Peace, so Peter used to leave him from of

601
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:40,840
Speaker 2: Samantha Williams house. So she stayed there with him, having

602
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:43,440
Speaker 2: a couple of dreams that night. And I'm still on

603
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:46,040
Speaker 2: my friend's house with other two friends. I haven't make

604
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:46,640
Speaker 2: it home yet.

605
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:49,120
Speaker 3: But the state just fit their time of death with

606
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:51,440
Speaker 3: the time he said he went in the house. Once

607
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:53,239
Speaker 3: he said he went in the house, they just had

608
00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:55,239
Speaker 3: tunnel vision and that was it. They just fit all

609
00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:57,040
Speaker 3: their evidence to comply with that.

610
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:00,920
Speaker 1: Wow. And we're going to get into Samantha minute, because

611
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:04,440
Speaker 1: this is one of those cases, and there's probably a dozen,

612
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:07,960
Speaker 1: maybe that we've profiled on the show, where all the

613
00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:11,240
Speaker 1: signs were there that would have led even a cursory

614
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:17,600
Speaker 1: investigation to focus on someone else, but it was not

615
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:20,320
Speaker 1: necessary because they already had somebody that they wanted. They

616
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:23,760
Speaker 1: had somebody who was an easy target, and also somebody

617
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:26,440
Speaker 1: that apparently they didn't like, because they didn't like the

618
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:28,960
Speaker 1: fact that you were here illegally or whatever their personal

619
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 1: biases were, you know. And it's worth noting too that

620
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:35,040
Speaker 1: in a case like this, because it's such a terrible

621
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:41,000
Speaker 1: violent crime, the idea that they would allow the perpetrator

622
00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:44,480
Speaker 1: to remain free just so they can close the case

623
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:49,440
Speaker 1: and put your life, you know, which they viewed as expendable. Apparently,

624
00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 1: it's really another very serious thing to look at, right,

625
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:56,000
Speaker 1: I mean, the people in that community were in danger.

626
00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 1: They still are, right, And let's talk about that. Because Samantha,

627
00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:04,560
Speaker 1: whose mother and grandmother were killed, she had been in

628
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:08,080
Speaker 1: and out of mental institutions dozens of times, right.

629
00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:10,200
Speaker 3: In the upwards of like sixty I think she said

630
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:13,160
Speaker 3: at the post conviction hearing she was Baker acted, which

631
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:18,160
Speaker 3: is Florida's involuntary mental health commitment sixty times six zero.

632
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:21,720
Speaker 1: That is, folks, right. So I mean that's a full

633
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:24,120
Speaker 1: on revolving door in and out of mental institution. And

634
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:29,120
Speaker 1: the fact is that, as I understand it, she actually

635
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:31,840
Speaker 1: vocalized her plan when she was in the mental institution.

636
00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:33,520
Speaker 1: She said that she was going to do this right

637
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:36,600
Speaker 1: in front of other people. Yeah, there was a she announced.

638
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:38,120
Speaker 3: It a couple of years before the murders. On one

639
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 3: of her Baker acts. She had to be restrained because

640
00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:43,600
Speaker 3: she was so violent in the hospital, kicking, spitting, throwing things,

641
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:46,200
Speaker 3: and she said, with her mother right next to her,

642
00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:47,880
Speaker 3: I'll kill you. I'll kill all of you when I

643
00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:48,240
Speaker 3: get out.

644
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:51,360
Speaker 1: I'll kill you. I'll kill all of you when I

645
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 1: get out. And I guess she should have taken her

646
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:58,560
Speaker 1: a little more seriously, and then we wouldn't be sitting

647
00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:01,280
Speaker 1: and having this conversation at all. And in fact, we

648
00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:05,320
Speaker 1: know now too that her biological evidence was found all

649
00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:07,440
Speaker 1: over the clime scene, right, not just because she lived

650
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:12,319
Speaker 1: there part time, but because she had actually done these

651
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:17,400
Speaker 1: gruesome deeds and then left her own blood for eight.

652
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:22,240
Speaker 3: Separate bloodstains within inches of the victim's blood throughout the trailer.

653
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:23,640
Speaker 3: None of Clemente's DNA.

654
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:29,000
Speaker 2: So I always though I stand up in court before

655
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 2: my trial and asked for the DNA to be destined.

656
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:34,040
Speaker 2: They just told me, I need to be a specific.

657
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:37,279
Speaker 2: I don't know what is specific me. I thought, it's

658
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:38,960
Speaker 2: a crime scene. You want to investigate, you want to

659
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:43,000
Speaker 2: test everything, because this is when I interact with the

660
00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:45,040
Speaker 2: Innercy Project, And they asked me, what do you want

661
00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:53,000
Speaker 2: us to tell? I say everything, everything, her nails, the cheats, everything.

662
00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:56,080
Speaker 2: So it was one hundred and ninety seven pieces of

663
00:34:56,120 --> 00:35:02,840
Speaker 2: evidence with blood, which nobody tells. Ever, So pictured yourself

664
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:07,920
Speaker 2: accused of a crime, which have so many pieces the

665
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:11,080
Speaker 2: evidence to be testing for DNA. Neither the stay or

666
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:14,440
Speaker 2: you attorney tested, And you asked the George VOCALI please

667
00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:17,680
Speaker 2: made my attorney tested. Then he said, you need to

668
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:24,759
Speaker 2: be a specific. Why would I be specific? Test everything? Right?

669
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:26,920
Speaker 2: I want to prove that I didn't do it. Maybe

670
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:30,960
Speaker 2: the killer left something behind. It was always always my argument,

671
00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:34,520
Speaker 2: you are not going to find my blood there because

672
00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:37,360
Speaker 2: I didn't do it. If you test it, maybe you

673
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:41,480
Speaker 2: find something else right, the accusum or rape, the accuracyme

674
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:45,760
Speaker 2: of killing, the acacimea, all of these things. I'm for eleven.

675
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:48,160
Speaker 2: If I start somebody one hundred and twenty nine times,

676
00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:50,040
Speaker 2: I ain't going to have this splatter blood all over me.

677
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:56,200
Speaker 2: No one drop of splatter blood in me. Everything is contact.

678
00:35:56,760 --> 00:35:59,879
Speaker 2: Like I say, it was my footprint on a round chair.

679
00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:06,719
Speaker 2: They are all down. A mirror was down and it's

680
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:09,640
Speaker 2: not a footprint under it, it's on top of it.

681
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:13,600
Speaker 2: They found her then that mirror, she saying crouded. That

682
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:17,279
Speaker 2: mirror was on the wall when she left. But they

683
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:24,279
Speaker 2: found her blooded and ain't her fingerprint? No mind, so

684
00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:40,080
Speaker 2: they didn't. There's nothing. So here I go to death

685
00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:44,239
Speaker 2: Row no English. Beat up. They beating me up all

686
00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:47,279
Speaker 2: the time because I don't speak English. Row and that

687
00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:52,880
Speaker 2: row yeah, the guards, No, No, the emails the guards

688
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:58,560
Speaker 2: because they thought I was acting, so they thought it

689
00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:04,640
Speaker 2: by beating me up, I will speak English. So I

690
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:07,560
Speaker 2: started taking newspapers from garbage to start reading. I don't

691
00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:10,160
Speaker 2: know what I was reading. And then I asked for

692
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:13,080
Speaker 2: a Bible because I got a Bible in Spanish, you see.

693
00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:16,239
Speaker 2: So I say, maybe with a Bible in English, I

694
00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:18,880
Speaker 2: can translate, it's going to be more easier for me.

695
00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:22,520
Speaker 2: And they send me a Penhouse letter Book number four,

696
00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:28,520
Speaker 2: four hundred and seventeen pages. Penhouse letter Book. It's a

697
00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:31,279
Speaker 2: foot book, you see.

698
00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:31,759
Speaker 1: I didn't know.

699
00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:32,839
Speaker 2: I didn't know what it was.

700
00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:37,040
Speaker 3: The other inmates, so we asked for a Bible because

701
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:40,360
Speaker 3: you want to learn English, and the other inmates, I

702
00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:42,839
Speaker 3: guess thought it would be funny or I'm not really sure,

703
00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:43,880
Speaker 3: but that's how.

704
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:47,000
Speaker 2: That's what they give them, Penhouse letter Book number four.

705
00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:50,320
Speaker 2: So that's what I got. That's what I started reading.

706
00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:53,799
Speaker 2: So I stay at night when it was quiet and

707
00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:55,719
Speaker 2: there was no light. That's why my eyes I all

708
00:37:55,719 --> 00:38:00,600
Speaker 2: missedtop now and I gave the light from the hallway

709
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:03,600
Speaker 2: and I got a beat up dic scenario in Spanish

710
00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:06,120
Speaker 2: and English, and I will go there and I will

711
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:10,759
Speaker 2: go with the letters. I read it seventeen times, the book,

712
00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:12,239
Speaker 2: the Fat Book.

713
00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:15,120
Speaker 4: Yes, so I taught himself English.

714
00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:15,920
Speaker 1: That's amazing.

715
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:23,520
Speaker 2: But the seventeenth time, I'm start getting a roused. And

716
00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:26,200
Speaker 2: I got so happy. Not because I got roused, you know.

717
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:29,600
Speaker 2: I got so happy because I got roused because I

718
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:33,160
Speaker 2: wasn't understanding what I was reading. But now I want

719
00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:34,759
Speaker 2: to prove to my mother that I didn't do this.

720
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:39,239
Speaker 2: And I started writing letters. One hundred and seventy five

721
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:44,239
Speaker 2: letters I wrote. I wrote, Oprah, I said, I don't

722
00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:45,600
Speaker 2: know who you are, but they telling me you they

723
00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:48,560
Speaker 2: could not television. Maybe you know somebody who can teest

724
00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:51,359
Speaker 2: this evidence. They turny came me for something I didn't do.

725
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:53,920
Speaker 2: And next to it, I would put a letter in

726
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:57,560
Speaker 2: Spanish too, so it was somebody who speaks Spanish in

727
00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:02,640
Speaker 2: my English? Was that bad? They can translated? One answered

728
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:08,200
Speaker 2: me back Innocent Prague of New York in Emerson Morrison

729
00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:11,200
Speaker 2: in a Marrison from the Innocent Project. And I got

730
00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:14,760
Speaker 2: to meet Maria. Remember I just have a pull defender.

731
00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:16,840
Speaker 2: I didn't never have a private attorney. I don't know

732
00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:19,960
Speaker 2: what it's like. And she told me she would never

733
00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:22,799
Speaker 2: like to me, and that she will work hard, and

734
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:25,600
Speaker 2: that she thought it was something wrong in my case.

735
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:29,040
Speaker 2: They got some papers, were working and then we pushed

736
00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:32,080
Speaker 2: for DNA. They allow us to test eighty two pieces

737
00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:32,640
Speaker 2: of evidence.

738
00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:36,600
Speaker 3: First, the first time, there's two drops of Samantha's blood,

739
00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:38,960
Speaker 3: and then we asked for the rest. Of course, the

740
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:42,040
Speaker 3: state agreed to blood the first time, and then once

741
00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:44,759
Speaker 3: Samantha's blood came back and they had evidence of her

742
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:48,080
Speaker 3: confessions which they withheld from us for anywhere from around

743
00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:51,080
Speaker 3: two years or maybe longer, hard to say, they objected

744
00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:53,600
Speaker 3: to any more testing. After two drops of her blood

745
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:57,400
Speaker 3: come back. She's admitted that she's killed her family. They

746
00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:00,600
Speaker 3: object to more DNA testing, but it was granted, thankfully.

747
00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:03,239
Speaker 1: And she confessed on a number of occasions to a

748
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:04,200
Speaker 1: number of different people.

749
00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:06,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's somewhere around seven or nine. But

750
00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:10,279
Speaker 3: this first one was a Baker act, one of her

751
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:13,000
Speaker 3: many Baker acts, where she had tried to burn the

752
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:15,319
Speaker 3: trailer down and sort of set herself on fire. She

753
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:17,680
Speaker 3: was like set some bedding on fire, and she told

754
00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:20,239
Speaker 3: a neighbor who told the police that demons in her

755
00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:21,800
Speaker 3: head had made her kill her family.

756
00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:26,320
Speaker 2: She told her best friend Nikki and two separate occasions

757
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:30,279
Speaker 2: did she call her mother? When Nikki asked her, what

758
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:34,960
Speaker 2: did you do? I heard them doing any stubbing motion

759
00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:40,200
Speaker 2: to her chest, her grandma Guy's tab in chest. According

760
00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:46,680
Speaker 2: to the medical Salminar, So, I never seen this woman

761
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:50,400
Speaker 2: named Nikki in my life. I don't know her. She

762
00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:54,520
Speaker 2: came forward to this day attorney and they sent her back.

763
00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:55,640
Speaker 1: So they didn't want to hear it.

764
00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:56,960
Speaker 2: Oh, they don't want to hear it. They say they

765
00:40:57,000 --> 00:41:01,839
Speaker 2: got the killer. But she contact my defensitorneys and told

766
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:05,560
Speaker 2: them too. Wow. She testified it the conviction hearing.

767
00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:08,800
Speaker 1: Kudus to her for not giving up right, because it

768
00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:10,600
Speaker 1: would have been pretty easy for her to go to

769
00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:12,600
Speaker 1: the police and say I want to talk and they

770
00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:14,600
Speaker 1: say no, and then she goes, well, I try my best.

771
00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:16,160
Speaker 1: What am I going to do? Right? But she actually

772
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:18,359
Speaker 1: took it to the next level and contacted view.

773
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:20,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, and we had been piecing it together who she

774
00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:23,359
Speaker 3: was based on the police report, because we could tell

775
00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:26,640
Speaker 3: that's who the person was in the statement that Samantha

776
00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:27,080
Speaker 3: had made.

777
00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:30,319
Speaker 1: The statement to So now they start trying to backpedal.

778
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:32,520
Speaker 1: Right Now, all of a sudden, they're like, wait a minute,

779
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:36,279
Speaker 1: We're going to stop cooperating and stop giving you access. Yes,

780
00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:38,960
Speaker 1: And that's when the dream team really kicks into gear, right.

781
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:40,560
Speaker 1: I mean you had not just you and Nina, but

782
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:42,000
Speaker 1: Josh Dubin. Yeah.

783
00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:43,520
Speaker 4: So that was at the retrial.

784
00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:46,160
Speaker 3: So the post conviction hearing was done just by myself

785
00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:48,719
Speaker 3: and Marie Palmer, who's my law partner now in our

786
00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:51,479
Speaker 3: investigator Polly, and then Nina came down for the first

787
00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:54,360
Speaker 3: two days of the evidentiary hearing in twenty thirteen. That

788
00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:57,160
Speaker 3: was a two week hearing that we put on tons

789
00:41:57,200 --> 00:41:59,960
Speaker 3: and tons of witnesses, all the DNA, all of the confession,

790
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:03,560
Speaker 3: and then we lost, of course at the circuit court level.

791
00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:08,239
Speaker 3: And we knew that we always had the idea of

792
00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:10,759
Speaker 3: getting a bigger team on this case. You know, It's

793
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:13,560
Speaker 3: one thing when lawyers from my office at the time,

794
00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:15,680
Speaker 3: you know, stand up before the flour spring court and

795
00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:18,120
Speaker 3: say this is a travesty. It's quite another when we

796
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:21,040
Speaker 3: get the Innocence Project and private law firms and you know,

797
00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:23,520
Speaker 3: people really fighting for this. It makes a difference. So

798
00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:25,920
Speaker 3: that was always our plan, and Nina was of course

799
00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:29,280
Speaker 3: amazing and instrumental in getting us help. So we got

800
00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:31,759
Speaker 3: lawyers from Alabama to do the appeal with us.

801
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:34,520
Speaker 4: They did the appeal at the flour Spring Court.

802
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:36,640
Speaker 3: We all worked on it and we got the reversal

803
00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:39,680
Speaker 3: in twenty sixteen, and that's when sort of the trial

804
00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:43,080
Speaker 3: team really came back together. And so my role sort

805
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:46,480
Speaker 3: of formally ended in twenty sixteen, and then I just

806
00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:49,360
Speaker 3: consulted with the trial team and talked to Clemente every

807
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:51,360
Speaker 3: Sunday for two and a half years while he was

808
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:52,440
Speaker 3: waiting his retrial.

809
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:56,080
Speaker 2: Well, let me tell you something. We have a DNA

810
00:42:56,560 --> 00:42:59,200
Speaker 2: a confession for the perpetrator who DNA was found in

811
00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:02,440
Speaker 2: the cricy, which is say she wasn't there, red fresh,

812
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:08,000
Speaker 2: red bright. And then we have a judge. We have

813
00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:12,759
Speaker 2: a judge who keep denying. Now we don't understand what

814
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:15,600
Speaker 2: these judgeph followed the law. Right later we find out

815
00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:18,480
Speaker 2: that she's got thetagenda against me, using my case to

816
00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:21,640
Speaker 2: get a promotion. She has stayed a sixty seventh page

817
00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:24,239
Speaker 2: drueling against me and brag about it.

818
00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:26,120
Speaker 1: So she was trying to get elevated.

819
00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:29,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, and used his case, used my case about it.

820
00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:33,200
Speaker 3: Yeah. She eventually was recused and did not preside over

821
00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:35,920
Speaker 3: the retrial. That's when Josh came on, Josh Stephens. He

822
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:39,040
Speaker 3: did the jury selection and in front of her first

823
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:43,160
Speaker 3: time in February of twenty eighteen, and her complete lack

824
00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:48,080
Speaker 3: of knowledge of the law. I mean, Josh just pointed

825
00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:49,960
Speaker 3: it out and we were able to recuse her from

826
00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:53,680
Speaker 3: the case. And then the trial started in October of

827
00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:57,400
Speaker 3: twenty eighteen with quite a team Josh picking the jury,

828
00:43:57,480 --> 00:44:02,800
Speaker 3: Maury Parmer who's my law partner, Lindsay Me, Dylan Blackbrooks Proctor,

829
00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:05,480
Speaker 3: I mean, just Jeff Howitz. There was like, at one

830
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:07,759
Speaker 3: point Clemente said, what did you tell them?

831
00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:08,120
Speaker 1: Oh?

832
00:44:08,239 --> 00:44:10,120
Speaker 2: Man, it was it was too many of them, right,

833
00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:12,759
Speaker 2: And I'm like, hey, yo, yo, making me look bad

834
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:14,960
Speaker 2: right here. Some of you need to go see down

835
00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:16,640
Speaker 2: the bag, you know, said.

836
00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:18,640
Speaker 3: Some of them on the prosecution side, to make sure

837
00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:19,600
Speaker 3: that it was too many.

838
00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:23,160
Speaker 2: To me, I don't want to look like, why this

839
00:44:23,239 --> 00:44:25,200
Speaker 2: guy got so many lowy, he got money, he might

840
00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:27,200
Speaker 2: have done it, so I don't want them to think

841
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:27,600
Speaker 2: like that.

842
00:44:27,640 --> 00:44:31,440
Speaker 1: Ever, Wow, you went from having too little help to us, Well,

843
00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:32,800
Speaker 1: you were thinking too much help. But it was not

844
00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:35,560
Speaker 1: the case. And Josh is an amazing guy. I mean

845
00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:38,560
Speaker 1: he It's funny because Nina originally introduced us, I don't

846
00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:42,960
Speaker 1: know whatever, a couple three years ago and he says

847
00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:46,359
Speaker 1: to me, you know, I'm a chury selection expert. I go, yeah,

848
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:48,200
Speaker 1: he goes, I can look in your eyes and see

849
00:44:48,239 --> 00:44:53,800
Speaker 1: your soul. I was like, so, you know, he's ay,

850
00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:57,280
Speaker 1: here's that guy. He's amazing. Yeah, And he was keeping

851
00:44:57,320 --> 00:44:59,319
Speaker 1: me posted then when he was down there at Florida Argua,

852
00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:01,280
Speaker 1: we were talking and he was giving me the updates

853
00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:05,040
Speaker 1: and he was really Yeah. It was a very intense time,

854
00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:07,720
Speaker 1: even for me watching from the sidelines from a thousand

855
00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:11,880
Speaker 1: miles away. So let's get to the good stuff, okay.

856
00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:15,600
Speaker 1: So then finally your conviction is overturned.

857
00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:19,440
Speaker 2: On now October twenty seven, twenty sixteen, but they kept

858
00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:22,319
Speaker 2: you on death row anyway until and then back to

859
00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:23,440
Speaker 2: the county, back to the.

860
00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:26,600
Speaker 1: County jail, right. And it's amazing because you know, I

861
00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:28,840
Speaker 1: talked to give speeches a lot, and I talked to

862
00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:32,160
Speaker 1: civilians all the time about this work and about cases

863
00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:36,680
Speaker 1: like yours, and almost everyone says, but I understand the

864
00:45:36,719 --> 00:45:39,800
Speaker 1: convictions overturned, you go home. That's not the way it works.

865
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:42,040
Speaker 1: I mean, sometimes it is, but in your case it

866
00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:44,239
Speaker 1: certainly was not, and the conviction was overturned. They're going

867
00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:45,840
Speaker 1: to retry you because they didn't like losing.

868
00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:46,080
Speaker 5: Right.

869
00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:50,880
Speaker 2: Oh, immediately they say, same day, yeah, same day, they say,

870
00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:53,319
Speaker 2: we are going to retry these I mean, this was.

871
00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:56,000
Speaker 3: A unanimous reversal from the flour Stream Court in which

872
00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:59,200
Speaker 3: the opinion said, no longer is a Garrey the creepy,

873
00:45:59,239 --> 00:46:03,000
Speaker 3: shadowy figure to live next door. He's escapegoat for her crimes.

874
00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:06,120
Speaker 4: That's seven justices of the.

875
00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:11,160
Speaker 3: Flora Supreme Court calling Samantha the murderer and they're still

876
00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:11,960
Speaker 3: trying him again.

877
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:15,600
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, yeah, I mean this is seven justices in

878
00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:19,080
Speaker 1: the Deep South. Yeah, with a guy who doesn't have

879
00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:21,399
Speaker 1: the same skin color as they do. I mean, they're saying,

880
00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:24,319
Speaker 1: and in the strongest possible way, that this is not

881
00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:28,319
Speaker 1: your crime, that this is a huge mistake. You heard

882
00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:29,520
Speaker 1: those words. How did that feel?

883
00:46:29,719 --> 00:46:32,120
Speaker 3: So the prison doesn't allow They require twenty four hour

884
00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:34,560
Speaker 3: notice for calls, so we couldn't even tell him until

885
00:46:34,600 --> 00:46:37,239
Speaker 3: the next day. So opinions come out every Thursday at

886
00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:39,520
Speaker 3: eleven opinion came out. We knew we couldn't get a

887
00:46:39,600 --> 00:46:41,480
Speaker 3: call to him, but we also knew it was going

888
00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:42,799
Speaker 3: to be on the news, and so I know, I

889
00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:44,920
Speaker 3: did an interview. I think Lindsay did too, and I

890
00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:48,319
Speaker 3: was like, well, Monday, if you're listening, congratulations because we

891
00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:50,239
Speaker 3: were going to get to talk to him until the

892
00:46:50,239 --> 00:46:50,640
Speaker 3: next day.

893
00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:52,120
Speaker 4: But guys on the row heard it.

894
00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:56,360
Speaker 3: They called me, yeah, hey, Tody, they're banging on the

895
00:46:56,400 --> 00:46:57,399
Speaker 3: bars and what.

896
00:46:57,760 --> 00:47:00,080
Speaker 2: I think you want to I say, hold on and

897
00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:02,000
Speaker 2: don't play like that because it's too it's too soon.

898
00:47:02,120 --> 00:47:05,680
Speaker 2: It was six months, twenty days, so they take twenty

899
00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:09,040
Speaker 2: two months in answering and don't play like that. Man.

900
00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:11,879
Speaker 2: You know that's not funny. I'm serious, man. They say

901
00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:14,040
Speaker 2: a funny name like your like by name, like the

902
00:47:14,120 --> 00:47:18,080
Speaker 2: ones you have, so hey, listen up. My neighbors say,

903
00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:20,880
Speaker 2: somebody say Jory want in new trial. Everybody go to

904
00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:24,840
Speaker 2: the news and trying to find it. And I got

905
00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:29,040
Speaker 2: a friend named Alex Alex Pagan who say, yeah, it's

906
00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:31,879
Speaker 2: you Ogani page in seven point four and we went

907
00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:35,280
Speaker 2: there and they were saying I gotta I won't.

908
00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:38,920
Speaker 1: We have limited time left. But in the time that

909
00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:42,879
Speaker 1: we do have. I want to get to the ultimate victory, right,

910
00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:46,520
Speaker 1: So the immediately announce they're going to retry you. They're

911
00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:48,719
Speaker 1: not done fucking with you yet. I can't think of

912
00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:51,759
Speaker 1: a better way to say that. But now you've got

913
00:47:51,760 --> 00:47:53,440
Speaker 1: the dream team, like we said, and you go for

914
00:47:53,520 --> 00:47:56,960
Speaker 1: the new trial, and you want to take this one.

915
00:47:57,200 --> 00:47:59,520
Speaker 3: Sure, we start in November. We had sort of a

916
00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:02,000
Speaker 3: false star in February. We ended up getting rid of

917
00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:05,400
Speaker 3: the judge who was clearly biased against him. Start in

918
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:09,160
Speaker 3: October with the new chief judge incredibly fair, promised both

919
00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:12,680
Speaker 3: sides a fair trial, and totally delivered jury selections ongoing

920
00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:17,440
Speaker 3: Josh is picking the jury. Two critical in court depositions

921
00:48:17,719 --> 00:48:21,720
Speaker 3: occurred that really sort of crumbled the States case. One

922
00:48:22,120 --> 00:48:25,080
Speaker 3: was the ex wife of Mark van Zant, who discovered

923
00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:28,320
Speaker 3: the bodies. Two of our lawyers, Mary Palmer and Dylan Black,

924
00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:31,760
Speaker 3: went to meet with her. She gave a remarkable story

925
00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:34,400
Speaker 3: in an Affidavid that Mark had always told her that

926
00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:36,520
Speaker 3: Samantha went out the window that night, the night of

927
00:48:36,560 --> 00:48:38,799
Speaker 3: the murders. He had always alibied her, always said that

928
00:48:38,840 --> 00:48:41,560
Speaker 3: she was with him all night. Turns out he was

929
00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:44,279
Speaker 3: a liar. We had listened to about twelve hundred of

930
00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:47,120
Speaker 3: his jail calls over the summer, in which he admitted

931
00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:49,359
Speaker 3: that he was a liar. Mary Palmer did an in

932
00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:52,480
Speaker 3: court deposition of Mark that was just masterful. It was

933
00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:55,680
Speaker 3: like the climactic scene of a movie where he basically

934
00:48:55,719 --> 00:48:58,080
Speaker 3: just admitted that he was a pathological liar and his

935
00:48:58,120 --> 00:49:01,759
Speaker 3: credibility was done. The second one was Josh did a

936
00:49:01,760 --> 00:49:06,000
Speaker 3: deposition of Samantha in court where she effectively said, I

937
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:07,640
Speaker 3: do a lot of things when I'm drunk. I guess

938
00:49:07,680 --> 00:49:09,960
Speaker 3: it's possible I did this too, and.

939
00:49:09,920 --> 00:49:10,640
Speaker 4: I don't remember.

940
00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:15,640
Speaker 3: So between the actual murderer admitting under oath that she

941
00:49:15,880 --> 00:49:20,239
Speaker 3: maybe committed this crime and her alibi witness admitting that

942
00:49:20,280 --> 00:49:22,480
Speaker 3: he was a pathological liar and that she had gone

943
00:49:22,520 --> 00:49:26,040
Speaker 3: out the window that night, their case was done.

944
00:49:29,239 --> 00:49:32,040
Speaker 1: Were you in the courtroom when you were finally found

945
00:49:32,040 --> 00:49:32,319
Speaker 1: to be.

946
00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:39,400
Speaker 2: Yes, I was. I was numb. Ah, I pray. I

947
00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:43,440
Speaker 2: always think God all w and to me it was

948
00:49:43,480 --> 00:49:45,520
Speaker 2: like I had about her experience. You know, I was

949
00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:49,440
Speaker 2: looking at myself and I'm always going to remember these

950
00:49:49,920 --> 00:49:52,560
Speaker 2: I looking at me saying it over.

951
00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:55,200
Speaker 1: Finally jury came in.

952
00:49:56,080 --> 00:49:58,080
Speaker 4: No, so the state actually announced no.

953
00:49:58,239 --> 00:50:02,399
Speaker 1: Prosper no pross, which is short for a Latin term

954
00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:05,640
Speaker 1: that translates to quote, we shall no longer prosecute.

955
00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:09,000
Speaker 3: They announced nor Pross. We didn't know what they were

956
00:50:09,080 --> 00:50:11,360
Speaker 3: going to do. They had asked for extra time to

957
00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:13,360
Speaker 3: think about it. Turns out they were getting an immigration

958
00:50:13,440 --> 00:50:15,360
Speaker 3: hold put on him because they had never bothered to

959
00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:17,640
Speaker 3: do that in the fourteen years that he was locked up,

960
00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:20,239
Speaker 3: so that you know, he couldn't actually walk free from

961
00:50:20,239 --> 00:50:23,240
Speaker 3: the courtroom, which we were able to rectify later getting

962
00:50:23,280 --> 00:50:25,000
Speaker 3: him an immigration bond. So they had to put the

963
00:50:25,040 --> 00:50:26,400
Speaker 3: icehold on them. But we still didn't know what they

964
00:50:26,440 --> 00:50:27,480
Speaker 3: were going to do. We didn't know if they were

965
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:29,839
Speaker 3: going to continue to go forward. And they came in.

966
00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:31,480
Speaker 3: Courtroom was full.

967
00:50:31,800 --> 00:50:32,719
Speaker 4: We were all sitting there.

968
00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:34,520
Speaker 3: Nina flew down or like you got to come. We

969
00:50:34,520 --> 00:50:36,839
Speaker 3: think they're going to drop it. I mean, they had

970
00:50:36,920 --> 00:50:37,760
Speaker 3: no way forward.

971
00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:38,160
Speaker 4: Really.

972
00:50:38,600 --> 00:50:41,000
Speaker 3: The state stood up and announced to nol Pross, and

973
00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:44,560
Speaker 3: I know I crumbled into a ball, I think almost

974
00:50:44,600 --> 00:50:47,560
Speaker 3: on the floor. I couldn't believe it, and the judge

975
00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:50,360
Speaker 3: was so kind and kind of gave everybody a minute.

976
00:50:50,800 --> 00:50:53,560
Speaker 3: I went up and hugged Clemente and we were all hugging,

977
00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:55,480
Speaker 3: and then he wanted to.

978
00:50:55,440 --> 00:50:57,960
Speaker 1: Speak, And do you remember what you said?

979
00:50:58,239 --> 00:51:02,080
Speaker 2: Yeah? What did you say? I say, God send you

980
00:51:02,160 --> 00:51:06,480
Speaker 2: angels so you feed, don't hear frogs, and you're angry.

981
00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:08,719
Speaker 2: You have called upon me. And if I hear you,

982
00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:13,680
Speaker 2: I will free you and I will glorify you. I

983
00:51:13,680 --> 00:51:18,480
Speaker 2: will give you many years of life, and I will

984
00:51:18,520 --> 00:51:22,680
Speaker 2: show you my salvation. And it sounds ninety one, fourteen,

985
00:51:22,719 --> 00:51:27,160
Speaker 2: fifteen and sixteen. I think everybody will help me out,

986
00:51:27,640 --> 00:51:29,719
Speaker 2: the ones who send me money, the one to make

987
00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:33,759
Speaker 2: me look like a human being. And I say, you

988
00:51:33,800 --> 00:51:37,960
Speaker 2: don't have an enemy in me from this humble legal immigrant.

989
00:51:38,080 --> 00:51:40,600
Speaker 2: If I can forgive somebody, I forget whoever, don't drunk

990
00:51:40,719 --> 00:51:45,200
Speaker 2: me because I want to live a better life.

991
00:51:47,880 --> 00:51:51,319
Speaker 1: Wow. So I have one more question and then we're

992
00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:53,040
Speaker 1: going to wrap up. I think I already know the

993
00:51:53,040 --> 00:51:55,200
Speaker 1: answer to this question, but I'm going to ask, anyway,

994
00:51:55,680 --> 00:51:57,880
Speaker 1: are you better about what happened to you?

995
00:52:00,200 --> 00:52:03,160
Speaker 2: Angry? Better? Angry? Is what you ask?

996
00:52:03,320 --> 00:52:05,839
Speaker 1: Bitter? Yeah? Better angry? Yeah, it's sort of a similar thing.

997
00:52:08,400 --> 00:52:12,799
Speaker 2: Somehow. I think it's an injustice. It is. I know

998
00:52:12,840 --> 00:52:19,200
Speaker 2: it's an injustice. Yeah, I can say I am angry,

999
00:52:19,239 --> 00:52:23,120
Speaker 2: but I'm not hateful. You know. A long time ago

1000
00:52:23,160 --> 00:52:27,040
Speaker 2: I let that go because it was killing me. So

1001
00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:29,600
Speaker 2: the way I see it now is I just tried

1002
00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:33,600
Speaker 2: to adjust, man, and I get aggravated for things, maybe

1003
00:52:33,600 --> 00:52:36,319
Speaker 2: because I got stoke so many years ago. But I

1004
00:52:36,360 --> 00:52:40,000
Speaker 2: know I'm gonna get better. It will. It has to

1005
00:52:40,040 --> 00:52:45,040
Speaker 2: be to lead it, and it is.

1006
00:52:45,160 --> 00:52:47,600
Speaker 1: And it's great to see you here. I almost when

1007
00:52:47,600 --> 00:52:49,160
Speaker 1: you were talking about breaking down the corner when I

1008
00:52:49,200 --> 00:52:51,719
Speaker 1: was broke down myself at got a little lump in

1009
00:52:51,760 --> 00:52:56,319
Speaker 1: my throat. So the tradition here at Wrongful Conviction is

1010
00:52:56,360 --> 00:52:59,480
Speaker 1: that at the end of each episode, first thing I

1011
00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:03,040
Speaker 1: do is thank you both for coming and being here.

1012
00:53:03,400 --> 00:53:07,160
Speaker 1: Thank you having Maria, and of course Shorty. And then

1013
00:53:07,719 --> 00:53:10,000
Speaker 1: my favorite part of the show is this, because this

1014
00:53:10,080 --> 00:53:11,880
Speaker 1: is the part of the show where I get to

1015
00:53:11,920 --> 00:53:16,319
Speaker 1: stop talking and just listen. And so I would like

1016
00:53:16,440 --> 00:53:20,280
Speaker 1: to now turn it over to you for any final

1017
00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:23,480
Speaker 1: thoughts that you have. Again, thanks for being here and

1018
00:53:23,520 --> 00:53:26,839
Speaker 1: for everything that you're doing. And I wish you, you know,

1019
00:53:26,960 --> 00:53:30,359
Speaker 1: all the happiness in the world. And so Maria, why

1020
00:53:30,400 --> 00:53:33,040
Speaker 1: don't you go first, and then Shorty you can close.

1021
00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:33,439
Speaker 4: Sure.

1022
00:53:33,760 --> 00:53:35,359
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having us and for drawing

1023
00:53:35,360 --> 00:53:38,640
Speaker 3: attention to this case, and you know, obviously very important

1024
00:53:38,680 --> 00:53:42,600
Speaker 3: cause overall. I mean, I think just for the listeners,

1025
00:53:43,640 --> 00:53:44,840
Speaker 3: you know, like you said, if they end up on

1026
00:53:44,920 --> 00:53:49,040
Speaker 3: jurys like really listen, hold the state to their burden.

1027
00:53:49,960 --> 00:53:55,040
Speaker 3: But also when the exoneration happens and all the happiness happens.

1028
00:53:55,239 --> 00:53:57,120
Speaker 3: You know, Clemente has a life to live and he's

1029
00:53:57,120 --> 00:53:59,400
Speaker 3: trying to piece his life back together, and it's especially

1030
00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:02,520
Speaker 3: hard for him because he's not allowed to work right

1031
00:54:02,560 --> 00:54:06,280
Speaker 3: now because his immigration case is ongoing. You know, he's

1032
00:54:07,200 --> 00:54:09,799
Speaker 3: fortunate for the benefits and the donations of others, and

1033
00:54:09,920 --> 00:54:12,440
Speaker 3: that's something that we continue to rely on. So I

1034
00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:14,680
Speaker 3: know that Innocence Project is going to do some fundraisers

1035
00:54:14,719 --> 00:54:17,839
Speaker 3: for him. He does some speaking and people give him

1036
00:54:17,840 --> 00:54:20,680
Speaker 3: donations for that unfortunate that he and I get to spend.

1037
00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:22,719
Speaker 3: He lives three miles from my house now in a

1038
00:54:22,760 --> 00:54:26,319
Speaker 3: community for exoneries, so we see each other every week

1039
00:54:26,360 --> 00:54:29,160
Speaker 3: for laundry and groceries. But you know, any kind of

1040
00:54:29,560 --> 00:54:33,040
Speaker 3: donations that listeners are willing to do will have that

1041
00:54:33,080 --> 00:54:37,200
Speaker 3: set up pretty quickly. Just really supporting exoneries. It's great

1042
00:54:37,239 --> 00:54:39,440
Speaker 3: to do events like this conference that we're at, but

1043
00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:42,799
Speaker 3: making sure that you know, after the dust settles in

1044
00:54:43,040 --> 00:54:47,240
Speaker 3: their home, we continue to support them.

1045
00:54:47,480 --> 00:54:51,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you for having me just stacking him back

1046
00:54:51,520 --> 00:54:56,600
Speaker 2: from there. Ukt out is not enough there for you

1047
00:54:56,840 --> 00:55:01,520
Speaker 2: after so many years incarcerated, and almost everybody toned that

1048
00:55:01,680 --> 00:55:07,680
Speaker 2: back on you. Family members, laws, friends, going away. We

1049
00:55:07,719 --> 00:55:11,360
Speaker 2: need medical, we need dental, you know, the mental health.

1050
00:55:14,320 --> 00:55:20,799
Speaker 2: But I always remember the three sides of this story, hers,

1051
00:55:21,120 --> 00:55:25,440
Speaker 2: his and the truth. They don't test evidence. I mean

1052
00:55:25,480 --> 00:55:27,720
Speaker 2: they don't want to find out the truth. That's simple.

1053
00:55:27,760 --> 00:55:30,480
Speaker 2: If it defended is so adamant to test the evidence.

1054
00:55:30,520 --> 00:55:33,320
Speaker 2: If you are an attorney at there and you client

1055
00:55:33,440 --> 00:55:36,000
Speaker 2: asking you to please test the evidence, maybe you should

1056
00:55:36,000 --> 00:55:38,360
Speaker 2: listen to him. He might be telling you the truth.

1057
00:55:39,280 --> 00:55:41,759
Speaker 2: So thank you for listening, and God bless you all.

1058
00:55:49,960 --> 00:55:52,600
Speaker 1: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you

1059
00:55:52,640 --> 00:55:56,320
Speaker 1: get your podcasts. It really helps. And I'm a proud

1060
00:55:56,360 --> 00:55:58,919
Speaker 1: donor to the Anesis Project, and I really hope you'll

1061
00:55:59,000 --> 00:56:02,400
Speaker 1: join me in support this very important cause and helping

1062
00:56:02,520 --> 00:56:06,399
Speaker 1: to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to innosentsproject dot org

1063
00:56:06,560 --> 00:56:09,279
Speaker 1: to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd like

1064
00:56:09,360 --> 00:56:12,360
Speaker 1: to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis.

1065
00:56:12,680 --> 00:56:14,960
Speaker 1: The music in the show is by three time OSCAR

1066
00:56:15,000 --> 00:56:18,040
Speaker 1: nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on

1067
00:56:18,080 --> 00:56:22,880
Speaker 1: Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast.

1068
00:56:23,239 --> 00:56:26,280
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is a production of Lava

1069
00:56:26,320 --> 00:56:33,600
Speaker 1: for Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one