WEBVTT - Part Three: How The Dulles Brothers Created The CIA And Destroyed Everything Else 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:06.640 Hmm, we're bad. By the time we get to the 0:00:06.640 --> 0:00:08.680 third part of this, I just have nothing. It's either 0:00:08.800 --> 0:00:11.959 a tonal screeching or just what you got, which is 0:00:12.000 --> 0:00:14.960 ship And I'm ashamed. But what are you? What are 0:00:14.960 --> 0:00:16.720 you gonna do? You're gonna go to another podcast? You're 0:00:16.720 --> 0:00:19.680 gonna listen to the fucking Cometown. No, you're not. You're 0:00:19.680 --> 0:00:22.640 gonna listen to the third part of the Dullest Brothers episode. 0:00:23.320 --> 0:00:28.960 You you worms, you Brian Shrimp. I'm sorry, I don't know. 0:00:29.120 --> 0:00:31.200 I don't know. I don't know what I'm doing here. 0:00:31.680 --> 0:00:34.280 My guest again for part three, who is my guest 0:00:34.360 --> 0:00:37.920 in the episode? Not my guest in emotionally abusing my 0:00:37.960 --> 0:00:41.440 audience for no reason is Jason Pargeon. Part of it 0:00:41.520 --> 0:00:44.120 is that this is a big subject, I guess, not 0:00:44.240 --> 0:00:48.760 just that it's a seventeen hour long marathon of podcasts. 0:00:48.840 --> 0:00:52.080 It's a it's a big subject to try to explain, 0:00:52.280 --> 0:00:56.560 to try to condense, to try to convey, and it's big. 0:00:56.640 --> 0:01:00.200 It's like we're trying to explain why the world is 0:01:00.240 --> 0:01:02.160 the way it is now and has been for the 0:01:02.240 --> 0:01:05.200 last half century. It's difficult to get it across. It 0:01:05.360 --> 0:01:07.720 would be one thing, like if you're just doing a 0:01:07.840 --> 0:01:11.039 very long podcast on say the O. J. Simpson trial, 0:01:11.600 --> 0:01:14.600 which is one singular subject with a certain number of players, 0:01:14.640 --> 0:01:18.559 this subject the Dullest Brothers in the Cold War. It's 0:01:18.720 --> 0:01:22.960 so expansive and there's so many side roads you could 0:01:22.959 --> 0:01:26.560 get off on that it is mentally taxing to even 0:01:26.640 --> 0:01:30.760 think about it. It's fucking exhausting. Um. And it's you know, 0:01:30.800 --> 0:01:32.800 I was just saying the other like, there's a there 0:01:32.880 --> 0:01:36.160 is a set of left wing conspiracy theories. You think 0:01:36.160 --> 0:01:39.720 that I'm a CIA operative, And I'm sure those people 0:01:40.120 --> 0:01:43.560 um who sometimes listen to the podcast for reasons that 0:01:43.560 --> 0:01:47.000 that escaped me um will be like, Oh, he didn't 0:01:47.000 --> 0:01:48.840 bring this up, and it's because he doesn't want people 0:01:48.840 --> 0:01:50.240 to say, or he didn't bring this up and because 0:01:50.240 --> 0:01:52.040 he doesn't want people thinking about it. No, it's because 0:01:52.080 --> 0:01:55.200 there's too much. Like we're barely going to talk about 0:01:55.400 --> 0:01:58.840 m k Ultra, which Alan Dulls masterminded in a lot 0:01:58.840 --> 0:02:01.280 of ways, and which was the cia A drugging thousands 0:02:01.320 --> 0:02:03.840 of random people with acid. We're not even gonna really 0:02:03.840 --> 0:02:06.400 get into it today because there's just too much to cover. 0:02:06.440 --> 0:02:08.160 We're gonna do a whole two partter on M K. L. 0:02:08.200 --> 0:02:10.440 Drew Don't don't, don't worry about that. There's a lot 0:02:10.480 --> 0:02:13.840 to talk about here, but like there's just you can't 0:02:14.360 --> 0:02:17.080 unless you're gonna be talking for fifty hours about the 0:02:17.120 --> 0:02:19.519 Dullest Brothers and what they did, You're going to leave 0:02:19.520 --> 0:02:22.400 shit out. It's just too big a subject. And then 0:02:22.400 --> 0:02:24.120 there's a question of like how much time do you 0:02:24.120 --> 0:02:25.680 devote to what they did, and how much time do 0:02:25.680 --> 0:02:27.760 you devote to the influence of what they did and 0:02:27.800 --> 0:02:30.560 how it shook out in history and the context of 0:02:30.600 --> 0:02:33.000 why they did why, Which is why I find this 0:02:33.120 --> 0:02:36.520 interesting myself, as like what goes through the mind of 0:02:36.600 --> 0:02:39.880 someone like that. But for example, one of the two brothers, 0:02:40.080 --> 0:02:43.560 he is just now about to become the head of CIA, 0:02:44.760 --> 0:02:47.880 just trying to convey to the average person what all 0:02:47.919 --> 0:02:52.000 the CIA does, because it's not just a bunch of spies. 0:02:52.720 --> 0:02:57.239 Every country's got that the CIA. You will ultimately here 0:02:58.280 --> 0:03:01.760 like they seem to have their own army, couple of them, 0:03:01.800 --> 0:03:05.080 and can organize and can invade countries. It's like, well, now, 0:03:05.120 --> 0:03:07.160 wait a second, how does that tie into what we 0:03:07.240 --> 0:03:10.480 know about Like a James Bond type characters like, the 0:03:10.560 --> 0:03:13.240 CIA is more than what you think it is. The 0:03:13.320 --> 0:03:16.600 reason conspiracy people can think that they've got their fingers 0:03:16.600 --> 0:03:23.200 in a podcast host is because there's almost no limit 0:03:23.320 --> 0:03:27.040 on what they can do as long as the President 0:03:27.120 --> 0:03:30.839 wants it done. Which is where the last episode left off, 0:03:30.960 --> 0:03:33.440 is that they basically have this mission statement is like 0:03:33.480 --> 0:03:37.680 whatever whatever it takes, that's it. That's the end of 0:03:37.680 --> 0:03:41.200 the sentence. It's whatever. Part of like what the CIA like. 0:03:41.240 --> 0:03:43.160 Why the CIA like work the way it did is 0:03:43.200 --> 0:03:45.960 you have you you have a bunch of different ways 0:03:45.960 --> 0:03:47.880 that you're going to be shotgunning money out to people 0:03:47.880 --> 0:03:50.200 and shotgunning arms out to people, and you use you 0:03:50.320 --> 0:03:53.280 establish all these different agencies and all these different you 0:03:53.360 --> 0:03:57.080 have these little different rat lines through other government agencies 0:03:57.080 --> 0:03:59.400 that do other stuff too, but that you're also able 0:03:59.440 --> 0:04:02.840 to shotgun money through or have operatives in because again 0:04:02.880 --> 0:04:05.160 there's no limit to what the CIA can do if 0:04:05.200 --> 0:04:07.680 the President tells them to or if they're pretty sure 0:04:07.720 --> 0:04:09.360 the President would have told them too, but they didn't 0:04:09.360 --> 0:04:10.760 want to bother him about it, so they just did 0:04:10.840 --> 0:04:15.680 it anyway, which is also something the CIA does. Cool dudes, Yeah, 0:04:17.560 --> 0:04:20.360 as John Krasinski said, we should be thankful for them 0:04:20.360 --> 0:04:25.000 every day. Jason, did you catch when John Krasinski got 0:04:25.000 --> 0:04:29.640 into a Twitter fight with Cody over that? No? I didn't. 0:04:30.000 --> 0:04:33.200 Oh yeah, Well, there's there was an account that kept 0:04:33.240 --> 0:04:36.640 really dragging Cody for Cody dragging John Krasinski for talking 0:04:36.680 --> 0:04:39.560 about how great the CIA is, and people started to 0:04:39.600 --> 0:04:41.760 think that maybe it was John Krasinski. And then there's 0:04:41.760 --> 0:04:43.600 a thing you can do where you can see some 0:04:43.680 --> 0:04:47.320 of the letters in uh, somebody's email address if you 0:04:47.320 --> 0:04:50.320 try to get their password on Facebook and it seems 0:04:50.320 --> 0:04:56.000 to match with John Krasinski's email. It was a good time. 0:04:56.120 --> 0:04:59.560 We all had a fun week um with John Krasinski 0:04:59.600 --> 0:05:04.120 and Cody arguing. Cody Johnston friend of the pod um. Anyway, 0:05:04.240 --> 0:05:08.640 all right, I'm sorry, let's let's just get into this episode. 0:05:08.960 --> 0:05:12.359 So from the beginning, the more intelligent members of the 0:05:12.360 --> 0:05:16.280 federal government had their reservations about the CIA. The United 0:05:16.320 --> 0:05:20.040 States has never before had an international intelligence agency outside 0:05:20.040 --> 0:05:22.440 of wartime, let alone one with the purview as wide 0:05:22.480 --> 0:05:26.880 as whatever the president says. Um Dean Atchison, President Truman's 0:05:26.920 --> 0:05:30.760 foreign policy adviser and an eventual Secretary of State expressed 0:05:30.839 --> 0:05:34.840 quote gravest forebodings about the CIA when it was established. 0:05:35.080 --> 0:05:37.800 He warned the President that quote, neither he, nor the 0:05:37.880 --> 0:05:40.360 National Security Council, nor anyone else would be in a 0:05:40.440 --> 0:05:42.920 position to know what it was doing or to control it. 0:05:43.480 --> 0:05:46.440 Harry Truman himself leader wrote, it was not intended to 0:05:46.480 --> 0:05:49.640 be a cloak and dagger outfit. It was intended merely 0:05:49.680 --> 0:05:52.040 as a center for keeping the President informed on what 0:05:52.120 --> 0:05:55.280 was going on in the world. Now, it's debatable as 0:05:55.279 --> 0:05:57.920 to whether or not Harry Truman's being honest here right 0:05:58.120 --> 0:06:00.719 like did was that really your intent? Or did you 0:06:00.760 --> 0:06:03.680 just see what happened and want to distance yourself from it? 0:06:04.000 --> 0:06:07.760 That can be argued. But if Truman's goal from the 0:06:07.800 --> 0:06:09.880 beginning was for it to be very different than what 0:06:09.960 --> 0:06:13.559 it became, he and didn't really fight hard to stop 0:06:13.600 --> 0:06:16.800 it from a changing. Six months after the CIA's creation, 0:06:16.920 --> 0:06:20.160 communists in Czechoslovakia carried out what is often referred to 0:06:20.200 --> 0:06:23.880 as a constitutional coup. Now, the history here is complex, 0:06:23.920 --> 0:06:25.440 but in brief, at the end of World War Two, 0:06:25.480 --> 0:06:28.320 the Czech Communist Party was super popular due to the 0:06:28.320 --> 0:06:30.560 fact that they fought against the Nazis and the fact 0:06:30.600 --> 0:06:34.880 that the USSR had liberated Czechoslovakia from the Nazis. Communism 0:06:34.920 --> 0:06:37.159 was pretty popular at the end of the war um 0:06:37.200 --> 0:06:39.920 the party grew from about fifty thousand members of nineteen 0:06:39.960 --> 0:06:42.920 forty five to well over a million by nineteen forty eight. 0:06:43.279 --> 0:06:46.400 It swept the nineteen forty six elections, winning thirty eight 0:06:46.400 --> 0:06:49.000 percent of the vote, which is still the best ever 0:06:49.080 --> 0:06:53.320 performance of a European communist party in a free election. Now, 0:06:53.480 --> 0:06:57.680 since Czechoslovakia was a parliamentary democracy, the Communists didn't take 0:06:57.680 --> 0:06:59.919 complete power because they'd won. They just were like the 0:07:00.040 --> 0:07:02.680 dominant block and government. You know, that's how parliaments work. 0:07:03.200 --> 0:07:06.520 But they quickly alienated voters and fractured the broad left 0:07:06.560 --> 0:07:09.279 wing alliance they've been a part of, you know, understandable reasons. 0:07:09.320 --> 0:07:11.480 Once you take power, you're never as popular as you 0:07:11.520 --> 0:07:14.320 are when you're trying to get it. It became clear 0:07:14.400 --> 0:07:16.320 that the next set of elections were going to go 0:07:16.440 --> 0:07:19.040 worse for the Communists, and so they used their control 0:07:19.080 --> 0:07:21.720 of the police and a network of trade union militious 0:07:21.760 --> 0:07:25.000 to seize total power. This set off alarm bells across 0:07:25.080 --> 0:07:27.160 the West and led to a sort of paranoia that 0:07:27.240 --> 0:07:30.680 other European communist parties were just biding their time. Until 0:07:30.720 --> 0:07:33.360 they could carry out the same kind of coup. So 0:07:33.440 --> 0:07:36.000 the CIA used this in as an excuse to start 0:07:36.040 --> 0:07:40.480 pouring money into operations aimed at countering other European communist parties, 0:07:40.560 --> 0:07:43.680 namely in Italy and France. In Italy, they funded a 0:07:43.760 --> 0:07:47.000 Christian nationalist party that was seen as pro us, and 0:07:47.040 --> 0:07:50.960 they recruited Catholic officials to preach against communism. They drowned 0:07:51.000 --> 0:07:54.240 the nation in a wave of propaganda. Alan Doles was 0:07:54.320 --> 0:07:57.000 not yet a regular employee of the CIA, but he 0:07:57.040 --> 0:07:59.520 took a leave of absence from his lawyering to kind 0:07:59.520 --> 0:08:02.960 of pro bono help organize CIA efforts in Italy, because 0:08:02.960 --> 0:08:06.280 again he missed the fun of being a spy. Now, 0:08:06.360 --> 0:08:08.680 the fact that Alan Dullis had traveled to Italy to 0:08:08.680 --> 0:08:11.600 help the CIA did not go unnoticed. Again, he's a 0:08:11.640 --> 0:08:14.720 bad spy. The Boston Globe ran an article with the 0:08:14.720 --> 0:08:19.880 headline Dullas masterminds new Cold War plan under secret agents. 0:08:20.320 --> 0:08:24.080 So really bad at being a secret agent. I just 0:08:24.480 --> 0:08:27.600 can't emphasize this enough. Kind of the way that James 0:08:27.600 --> 0:08:33.000 Bond catched his catch phrases him telling people his name, Yeah, 0:08:33.800 --> 0:08:37.400 if you're if you're a famous spy, that's bad. But 0:08:37.720 --> 0:08:41.679 he was a famous spy. Yeah, he was a famous spy, 0:08:41.720 --> 0:08:45.160 which you shouldn't be so at this stage of things, 0:08:45.200 --> 0:08:47.680 the CIA's aide in Italy, Will Aid, is a weird 0:08:47.720 --> 0:08:50.080 that what this? You know, the ship the CIA is 0:08:50.120 --> 0:08:53.960 doing in Italy was entirely focused around propaganda and providing 0:08:54.000 --> 0:08:57.560 funds to sympathetic politicians are mostly focused. But even at 0:08:57.600 --> 0:09:00.480 this early stage, Alan and his colleagues were just discussing 0:09:00.559 --> 0:09:03.800 the possibility of organizing mass violence as a way to 0:09:03.840 --> 0:09:06.959 achieve their ends. They reached out to several officers in 0:09:07.000 --> 0:09:10.160 the Italian military with the aim of organizing a couta 0:09:10.240 --> 0:09:12.880 ta if the Communists won. From right up by the 0:09:12.880 --> 0:09:16.959 Wilson Center quote, they viewed the project as possessing an 0:09:16.960 --> 0:09:20.760 extremely grave implications, carrying with it the probability of plunging 0:09:20.840 --> 0:09:24.120 Italy into a bloody civil war and seriously hazarding the 0:09:24.160 --> 0:09:27.400 start of World War Three. But since the scheme represented 0:09:27.440 --> 0:09:30.800 a final, though thorough desperate action to hold Italy for 0:09:30.840 --> 0:09:33.560 the Western Bloc, they did not want to discard it 0:09:33.600 --> 0:09:38.400 and recommended immediate exploration. So they decide, like, okay, Italy 0:09:38.520 --> 0:09:41.160 might go Communists, we have to set up a network 0:09:41.320 --> 0:09:43.600 capable of carrying out a coup if the Communist went 0:09:43.640 --> 0:09:45.680 an election, we have to like get all these guys 0:09:45.679 --> 0:09:47.800 in the army to help, to be willing to overthrow 0:09:47.840 --> 0:09:50.720 the government. Even though if that happens it might start 0:09:50.760 --> 0:09:53.120 World War three and end all life and hume on Earth, 0:09:53.640 --> 0:09:56.160 the fact that it would stop Italy from going communist 0:09:56.240 --> 0:09:58.880 is a worthy risk. Like that's the cost been, Like 0:09:58.920 --> 0:10:02.120 we have them in writing making that cost benefit analysis basics. 0:10:02.200 --> 0:10:05.079 Once you have an enemy that you've decided as an 0:10:05.080 --> 0:10:08.920 existential threat to everything, and as we mentioned in the 0:10:09.000 --> 0:10:12.080 last episode, that became the habit of making sure we 0:10:12.200 --> 0:10:15.920 always had one of those ye, you will have a 0:10:15.960 --> 0:10:23.080 blank check to do absolutely anything in anything, including exterminating 0:10:23.200 --> 0:10:28.240 life on Earth. We were and are fully prepared to 0:10:28.559 --> 0:10:33.920 render the species extinct rather than let it continue on 0:10:34.040 --> 0:10:37.600 under communism. If you sit back and think about that, 0:10:37.600 --> 0:10:40.319 that's kind of weird. Yeah, it's it's a little odd 0:10:40.440 --> 0:10:43.400 because like, I'm not a I'm not a state communist, 0:10:43.760 --> 0:10:46.760 but I think life, even with all the critiques I 0:10:46.800 --> 0:10:50.320 have of the U. S s R, still better than death. 0:10:51.280 --> 0:10:55.560 But once that template was established after World War Two, 0:10:56.400 --> 0:10:59.160 it would always be so and we mentioned last episode 0:10:59.160 --> 0:11:02.319 that after Nino and then like Islam and the encroaching, 0:11:02.880 --> 0:11:05.240 like the fear of you had, you had small towns 0:11:05.240 --> 0:11:08.920 in America passing laws saying that they could not be 0:11:09.000 --> 0:11:12.800 ruled by Sharia law. Yeah, yeah, exactly. There's some small 0:11:12.840 --> 0:11:16.240 town in Nebraska afraid that it any day now the 0:11:16.360 --> 0:11:18.640 Muslims are going to come take over that small town. 0:11:19.480 --> 0:11:22.719 And because that's our only way we can think about problems. 0:11:23.120 --> 0:11:25.920 So if you have that in mind that at any moment, 0:11:26.040 --> 0:11:28.280 Islam is going to utterly take over the world and 0:11:28.360 --> 0:11:34.640 depose capitalism. Capitalism the most unkillable idea in the history 0:11:34.640 --> 0:11:42.680 of civilization, like almost impossibly durable ideology. Yeah, yeah, the idea. 0:11:42.720 --> 0:11:45.800 Once you've sold the idea that civilization and freedom and 0:11:46.160 --> 0:11:50.360 free markets and capitalism are utterly fragile and at any 0:11:50.400 --> 0:11:53.040 moment can be toppled by the next threat on the horizon, 0:11:53.080 --> 0:11:55.520 whether it's communism, whether it's the Muslims. What are the 0:11:55.520 --> 0:12:00.760 next thing is going to be? And we must do anything, anything, 0:12:01.040 --> 0:12:06.520 anything is morally justified, and stopping it, you're doomed. You 0:12:06.559 --> 0:12:09.719 have set yourself down a dark road because there's no 0:12:09.960 --> 0:12:13.200 checks in that direction. The moment anyone says, hey, you 0:12:13.240 --> 0:12:17.480 went too far, it's like, oh, so you're a secret comy. 0:12:17.600 --> 0:12:20.520 And that was that was the atmosphere the Dulles Is 0:12:20.679 --> 0:12:24.559 established and would establish, and that we've lived under until now. 0:12:24.720 --> 0:12:27.360 You can still scare. You can win elections today with 0:12:27.440 --> 0:12:30.960 the red scare. People are still just as afraid of 0:12:31.000 --> 0:12:35.280 Communism as they were, which is bizarre. Like the idea 0:12:35.360 --> 0:12:40.200 that Donald Trump can talk about encroaching Marxism in America, 0:12:40.520 --> 0:12:44.760 It's like, what power do Marxists have in this country? 0:12:44.800 --> 0:12:48.240 But it doesn't matter that fear run is now etched 0:12:48.240 --> 0:12:50.920 into our d n A and you can thank the 0:12:51.000 --> 0:12:54.560 Dullest Brothers for that to a very large extent, you 0:12:54.600 --> 0:13:03.000 really can um. It's bleak um. It's I really it 0:13:03.040 --> 0:13:05.200 would be nice to be able to have because it, 0:13:05.320 --> 0:13:07.280 you know, it leads to this, It leads to this, 0:13:07.280 --> 0:13:09.480 this kind of same thing on the other end of things, 0:13:09.520 --> 0:13:12.120 where because of this the way that kind of these 0:13:12.120 --> 0:13:15.640 tensions around communism when I get ratcheted because just that's 0:13:15.679 --> 0:13:17.839 the way we go when we talk about enemies and 0:13:17.880 --> 0:13:22.560 our culture right that it's existential, you get It's led 0:13:22.600 --> 0:13:25.120 to this complete death of nuance on all sides. So 0:13:25.200 --> 0:13:28.000 now if you're if you're on the far left, you 0:13:28.040 --> 0:13:31.319 can't be like, you can't analyze geopolitics by saying like, okay, 0:13:31.320 --> 0:13:33.000 well who's the right and who's in the wrong. There's 0:13:33.000 --> 0:13:34.840 a lot of people who just be like, well, whoever 0:13:34.920 --> 0:13:37.040 is not the United States is in the right, and 0:13:37.080 --> 0:13:39.480 that leads them to back Bashar al Assad or whatever 0:13:40.040 --> 0:13:42.960 um or, or back Russia, or think that that China 0:13:43.160 --> 0:13:48.280 is is this perfect um embodiment of the socialism they want. 0:13:48.480 --> 0:13:51.800 It's it all. It infects everything. I guess the fact 0:13:51.880 --> 0:13:55.480 that everyone has to be at this level of every 0:13:55.520 --> 0:13:59.280 threat as an existential threat, every threat ends an extermination. 0:13:59.800 --> 0:14:02.080 I I think it just it has got it. It's 0:14:02.120 --> 0:14:05.240 so deep into our culture that it affects everything, and 0:14:05.280 --> 0:14:11.600 that's probably bad. It's it's extremely important to understand that mindset, though, 0:14:11.640 --> 0:14:14.800 because this is this is what we'll govern, the way 0:14:15.000 --> 0:14:18.040 they're going to do business for the rest of the 0:14:18.080 --> 0:14:20.320 time they're in power, that the Dulleses are in power, 0:14:20.360 --> 0:14:24.040 which is about to start very soon, because everything we've discussed, 0:14:24.040 --> 0:14:26.080 when these guys should have ruined their career as many 0:14:26.120 --> 0:14:29.240 times over, they will both be rewarded by becoming two 0:14:29.240 --> 0:14:32.720 of the most powerful people on earth in the history 0:14:33.400 --> 0:14:35.720 that we've laid out is going to get them elevated 0:14:35.760 --> 0:14:38.640 to about as high as you can go without being president. 0:14:38.720 --> 0:14:42.160 And I in ways more powerful than presidents some presidents 0:14:42.160 --> 0:14:46.000 they both served longer. Yeah, so definitely they're both more 0:14:46.040 --> 0:14:48.120 powerful than Jimmy Carter was. I think we can all 0:14:48.160 --> 0:14:54.120 agree on that. So yeah. In France, the CIA intervened 0:14:54.160 --> 0:14:57.320 to crush a Communist led strike of duck dock workers 0:14:57.320 --> 0:15:00.840 in Marseille. They developed an ongoing relationship with several clans 0:15:00.840 --> 0:15:04.360 of Corsican gangsters who they hired and used to violently 0:15:04.400 --> 0:15:08.240 crushed the labor movement in Marseilles in nine and again 0:15:08.240 --> 0:15:09.960 in nineteen fifty. And I think this is kind of 0:15:09.960 --> 0:15:12.960 the first example of the CIA basically bringing in a 0:15:13.040 --> 0:15:16.680 mercenary force to do violence against their political enemies. And 0:15:16.720 --> 0:15:18.880 it's I don't I don't know that anyone dies, and 0:15:19.000 --> 0:15:20.480 they might have happened. I haven't found a lot of 0:15:20.520 --> 0:15:24.480 detail on this, but this is kind of the very beginning. Now, 0:15:24.520 --> 0:15:27.200 while Alan Dulas was helping his colleagues in the Agency 0:15:27.240 --> 0:15:30.520 explore the boundaries of their new powers, Foster Dulas was 0:15:30.560 --> 0:15:33.680 still a lawyer for Sullivan and Cromwell. He continued to 0:15:33.680 --> 0:15:36.560 dip his toes into politics, growing deeper woven into the 0:15:36.640 --> 0:15:39.960 upper strata of the Republican Party as the nineteen fifties 0:15:40.000 --> 0:15:43.480 took off. His attitude about international orders started to shift. 0:15:43.920 --> 0:15:45.960 Before and during World War Two. As we talked about 0:15:46.000 --> 0:15:48.560 last episode, he believed the root of conflict was the 0:15:48.600 --> 0:15:52.600 failure of national leaders to cooperate. Right, that's why you know, 0:15:52.640 --> 0:15:54.680 you want to spread all this business around because it 0:15:54.720 --> 0:15:58.000 creates these these inner connections that can bring peace. Now, 0:15:58.240 --> 0:16:01.200 Foster's view shifted as the Cold War kicked off. He 0:16:01.240 --> 0:16:04.640 came to believe that all global instability had its roots 0:16:04.680 --> 0:16:08.880 in the action of a single nation, the Soviet Union. Now, 0:16:08.920 --> 0:16:10.680 this was a period in which, and I guess you 0:16:10.680 --> 0:16:12.640 can say that's kind of consistent to his earlier view, 0:16:12.680 --> 0:16:16.160 because the Soviet Union doesn't ostensibly accept you know, business 0:16:16.240 --> 0:16:18.440 interests and stuff. So I don't know, maybe that's how 0:16:18.440 --> 0:16:21.640 he justified it in his head. This was a period though, 0:16:21.680 --> 0:16:24.480 in which labor movements and anti colonial movements were taking 0:16:24.480 --> 0:16:27.240 off in Africa and Indo China and in Latin America 0:16:27.360 --> 0:16:30.840 just to name a few places. Um Foster viewed all 0:16:30.880 --> 0:16:33.680 of this as not the results of decades of oppression, 0:16:33.760 --> 0:16:37.800 of poverty, of exploitation, but as the result of Soviet meddling. 0:16:38.440 --> 0:16:42.160 From the Brothers quote, he began reading and rereading Problems 0:16:42.160 --> 0:16:45.560 of Leninism, a collection of Stalin's essays and speeches. By 0:16:45.600 --> 0:16:48.400 one account, he owned six or more pencil marked copies 0:16:48.440 --> 0:16:51.280 and kept each in one of his workplaces. He considered 0:16:51.320 --> 0:16:54.040 it a blueprint for world conquest and came to believe 0:16:54.240 --> 0:16:57.080 that the October Revolution had basically been the seed of 0:16:57.120 --> 0:16:59.960 an inevitable process that, if left unchecked, would end the 0:17:00.160 --> 0:17:04.800 very existence of world capitalism. Now, Foster believed that Soviet 0:17:04.840 --> 0:17:08.040 Communism was doing to the West into the Christian world 0:17:08.119 --> 0:17:10.399 what Islam had done hundreds of years earlier, and a 0:17:10.480 --> 0:17:12.760 lot of his writings he would draw a direct connection 0:17:12.840 --> 0:17:15.720 between what Islam did during like the time that's kind 0:17:15.760 --> 0:17:18.040 of the Muslim empires were expanding, and then what we 0:17:18.080 --> 0:17:21.240 call the medieval period um and he would draw a 0:17:21.280 --> 0:17:24.400 line between that and Soviet communism, which I find interesting 0:17:24.480 --> 0:17:27.199 because in the you know, the twenty one century, a 0:17:27.280 --> 0:17:31.720 lot of conservatives drew back to kind of Soviet like 0:17:31.800 --> 0:17:33.520 the kind of the way we talked about the Soviet 0:17:33.600 --> 0:17:36.160 Union to talk about the problems of radical Islam. It's 0:17:36.200 --> 0:17:39.600 just interesting that Foster recognized. I guess that connection too 0:17:39.640 --> 0:17:41.679 in a way both because they're there are both is 0:17:41.720 --> 0:17:44.639 He sought threats to the Christian Western order. Um, and 0:17:44.680 --> 0:17:46.960 if you want to see the perfect intersection of those saying, 0:17:47.080 --> 0:17:54.800 watched the movie Rambo three. Yes, like not a joke, Um, 0:17:54.840 --> 0:17:58.399 it's all in there. So Foster was willing to admit, 0:17:58.480 --> 0:18:03.160 it's interesting to me that that Auster sees Soviet Communism 0:18:03.200 --> 0:18:05.480 as this kind of existential threat in a way that 0:18:05.520 --> 0:18:09.600 he didn't see Nazism. He was willing later on to 0:18:09.640 --> 0:18:12.160 admit that the Nazis had committed terrible crimes, and even 0:18:12.160 --> 0:18:15.640 that those crimes had had their roots to night Nazi ideology, 0:18:15.680 --> 0:18:21.159 but he accepted Nazism as essentially Western Communism, he thought 0:18:21.560 --> 0:18:24.800 was an ultimate evil and impossible to compromise with. You 0:18:24.840 --> 0:18:29.520 can compromise with Nazis, Foster believed you can't compromise with Communists, 0:18:30.520 --> 0:18:33.320 which is ironic in part because both the Nazis and 0:18:33.359 --> 0:18:36.280 Communists compromise with each other on a number of occasions. 0:18:36.280 --> 0:18:41.960 But that's aside the point now. In his columns and speeches, 0:18:42.080 --> 0:18:44.800 Dulas insisted that the United States was in a struggle 0:18:44.840 --> 0:18:48.080 to the death with Communism. Defeat would mean the end 0:18:48.119 --> 0:18:51.120 of humanity. Quote, we are the only great nation whose 0:18:51.160 --> 0:18:54.360 people have not been drained physically or spiritually. It devolves 0:18:54.440 --> 0:18:57.479 upon us to give leadership and restoring principle as a 0:18:57.480 --> 0:18:59.840 guide to conduct. If we do not do that, the 0:19:00.040 --> 0:19:03.240 world will not be worth living in. Indeed, it probably 0:19:03.280 --> 0:19:07.560 will be a world in which human beings cannot live again. 0:19:07.760 --> 0:19:11.000 The victory of communism is the extermination of the human race. 0:19:11.040 --> 0:19:16.400 That's the only way this ends. Um. Yeah. Now, it's 0:19:16.440 --> 0:19:19.760 worth noting that Foster Dulus was not unopposed in his views. 0:19:20.000 --> 0:19:22.880 One man who argued against him was Reinhold Neiber, who 0:19:22.920 --> 0:19:26.080 he'd served with in the Just Endurable Peace Commission after 0:19:26.119 --> 0:19:29.439 the war. Neiber weren't warned that the great danger to 0:19:29.480 --> 0:19:33.840 the West was not Communism but the American ego, writing quote, 0:19:34.320 --> 0:19:37.280 if we should perish, the ruthlessness of the foe would 0:19:37.280 --> 0:19:40.520 only be the secondary cause of the disaster. The primary 0:19:40.600 --> 0:19:43.240 cause would be that the strength of a great nation 0:19:43.640 --> 0:19:46.280 was directed by eyes too blind to see all the 0:19:46.320 --> 0:19:49.280 hazards of the struggle, and the blindness would be induced 0:19:49.320 --> 0:19:52.400 not by some accident of nature or history, but by 0:19:52.440 --> 0:19:56.880 hatred and vain glory, which I think is accurate both 0:19:56.920 --> 0:20:00.600 then and now. Like you can s the same thing 0:20:00.640 --> 0:20:05.640 about our response to nine eleven. In a lot of ways, Um, 0:20:05.680 --> 0:20:09.320 the danger is not what actual attacks the enemy carries out. 0:20:09.440 --> 0:20:13.000 It's about how our egos lead us to react to them. 0:20:13.200 --> 0:20:17.800 That's extremely key here, because the entire purpose of doing 0:20:17.840 --> 0:20:20.600 this series and why it's relevant and why it's interesting 0:20:20.720 --> 0:20:24.000 lies in my opinion, and that the reason the Dulles 0:20:24.000 --> 0:20:32.360 doesn't matter is because this ideology that everything stopping communism 0:20:32.440 --> 0:20:36.439 justifies anything and everything. That's what they brought to the 0:20:36.480 --> 0:20:39.480 world or helped cement in the world, because that's what 0:20:39.760 --> 0:20:42.240 that quote that you you know, you read off there 0:20:42.280 --> 0:20:46.560 about that like surrendering, surrendering to communism means extinction of 0:20:46.600 --> 0:20:49.240 the human race, as if communism is a cancer that's 0:20:49.280 --> 0:20:54.080 growing in the body of humanity. That sounds like the 0:20:54.320 --> 0:20:59.320 ranting of an extremist, crazy person at a rally, that 0:20:59.320 --> 0:21:02.679 that would bayly become the de facto American belief for 0:21:02.720 --> 0:21:07.560 the next half century. Everything about the way we behaved 0:21:07.560 --> 0:21:10.600 and everything that the CIA did, it all comes back 0:21:10.640 --> 0:21:14.160 to that and the fact that that was so easy 0:21:14.280 --> 0:21:19.760 to abuse. Because once you've established that any pro labor 0:21:19.880 --> 0:21:25.720 movement is secretly communist, you now have justification to to 0:21:25.960 --> 0:21:30.840 intervene anywhere labor rights spring up in the name of 0:21:30.920 --> 0:21:34.480 stamping out the seeds of communism. Because of that slippery 0:21:34.560 --> 0:21:38.240 slope fallacy, where anywhere you have workers taking to the 0:21:38.280 --> 0:21:42.159 streets and demanding better conditions, are demanding whatever things that 0:21:42.200 --> 0:21:47.320 otherwise would seem distinctly American, you can now justify intervention 0:21:47.520 --> 0:21:53.160 in any in all sorts of underhand ways, based on, well, 0:21:53.880 --> 0:21:57.280 this is fighting the cancer, this is fighting the knife 0:21:57.320 --> 0:22:01.000 at the throat of humanity that is communist. Someome where 0:22:01.200 --> 0:22:05.200 there's some alternate reality where the capitalists simply says, hey, 0:22:05.400 --> 0:22:08.640 will outcompete them, will show them the capitalism is better, 0:22:08.760 --> 0:22:11.720 will you know, will lead by example, will become so 0:22:11.760 --> 0:22:14.600 strong with our economy that we will prove that communism 0:22:14.640 --> 0:22:18.959 doesn't work, that that is not the path they took. Nope, 0:22:19.680 --> 0:22:23.199 And it's you know, there's an interesting similarity to me 0:22:23.280 --> 0:22:26.760 when we talk about the way the rhetoric works and 0:22:26.800 --> 0:22:29.560 where it leads people to something I see kind of 0:22:29.560 --> 0:22:33.320 in the I'm seeing increasingly become common on on both 0:22:33.359 --> 0:22:36.960 the kind of extremist libertarian and the extremist right wing 0:22:37.560 --> 0:22:39.480 um with groups like the Proud Boys and groups like 0:22:39.480 --> 0:22:41.639 the Boogaloo Boys, where they walk around the shirts that 0:22:41.680 --> 0:22:45.160