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Speaker 1: Hmm, we're bad. By the time we get to the

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Speaker 1: third part of this, I just have nothing. It's either

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Speaker 1: a tonal screeching or just what you got, which is

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Speaker 1: ship And I'm ashamed. But what are you? What are

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Speaker 1: you gonna do? You're gonna go to another podcast? You're

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Speaker 1: gonna listen to the fucking Cometown. No, you're not. You're

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Speaker 1: gonna listen to the third part of the Dullest Brothers episode.

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Speaker 1: You you worms, you Brian Shrimp. I'm sorry, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know what I'm doing here.

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Speaker 1: My guest again for part three, who is my guest

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Speaker 1: in the episode? Not my guest in emotionally abusing my

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Speaker 1: audience for no reason is Jason Pargeon. Part of it

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Speaker 1: is that this is a big subject, I guess, not

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Speaker 1: just that it's a seventeen hour long marathon of podcasts.

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Speaker 1: It's a it's a big subject to try to explain,

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Speaker 1: to try to condense, to try to convey, and it's big.

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Speaker 1: It's like we're trying to explain why the world is

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Speaker 1: the way it is now and has been for the

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Speaker 1: last half century. It's difficult to get it across. It

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Speaker 1: would be one thing, like if you're just doing a

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Speaker 1: very long podcast on say the O. J. Simpson trial,

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Speaker 1: which is one singular subject with a certain number of players,

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Speaker 1: this subject the Dullest Brothers in the Cold War. It's

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Speaker 1: so expansive and there's so many side roads you could

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Speaker 1: get off on that it is mentally taxing to even

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Speaker 1: think about it. It's fucking exhausting. Um. And it's you know,

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Speaker 1: I was just saying the other like, there's a there

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Speaker 1: is a set of left wing conspiracy theories. You think

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Speaker 1: that I'm a CIA operative, And I'm sure those people

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Speaker 1: um who sometimes listen to the podcast for reasons that

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Speaker 1: that escaped me um will be like, Oh, he didn't

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Speaker 1: bring this up, and it's because he doesn't want people

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Speaker 1: to say, or he didn't bring this up and because

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Speaker 1: he doesn't want people thinking about it. No, it's because

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Speaker 1: there's too much. Like we're barely going to talk about

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Speaker 1: m k Ultra, which Alan Dulls masterminded in a lot

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Speaker 1: of ways, and which was the cia A drugging thousands

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Speaker 1: of random people with acid. We're not even gonna really

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Speaker 1: get into it today because there's just too much to cover.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna do a whole two partter on M K. L.

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Speaker 1: Drew Don't don't, don't worry about that. There's a lot

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Speaker 1: to talk about here, but like there's just you can't

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Speaker 1: unless you're gonna be talking for fifty hours about the

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Speaker 1: Dullest Brothers and what they did, You're going to leave

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Speaker 1: shit out. It's just too big a subject. And then

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Speaker 1: there's a question of like how much time do you

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Speaker 1: devote to what they did, and how much time do

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Speaker 1: you devote to the influence of what they did and

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Speaker 1: how it shook out in history and the context of

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Speaker 1: why they did why, Which is why I find this

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Speaker 1: interesting myself, as like what goes through the mind of

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Speaker 1: someone like that. But for example, one of the two brothers,

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Speaker 1: he is just now about to become the head of CIA,

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Speaker 1: just trying to convey to the average person what all

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Speaker 1: the CIA does, because it's not just a bunch of spies.

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Speaker 1: Every country's got that the CIA. You will ultimately here

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Speaker 1: like they seem to have their own army, couple of them,

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Speaker 1: and can organize and can invade countries. It's like, well, now,

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Speaker 1: wait a second, how does that tie into what we

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Speaker 1: know about Like a James Bond type characters like, the

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Speaker 1: CIA is more than what you think it is. The

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Speaker 1: reason conspiracy people can think that they've got their fingers

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Speaker 1: in a podcast host is because there's almost no limit

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Speaker 1: on what they can do as long as the President

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Speaker 1: wants it done. Which is where the last episode left off,

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Speaker 1: is that they basically have this mission statement is like

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Speaker 1: whatever whatever it takes, that's it. That's the end of

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Speaker 1: the sentence. It's whatever. Part of like what the CIA like.

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Speaker 1: Why the CIA like work the way it did is

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Speaker 1: you have you you have a bunch of different ways

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Speaker 1: that you're going to be shotgunning money out to people

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Speaker 1: and shotgunning arms out to people, and you use you

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Speaker 1: establish all these different agencies and all these different you

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Speaker 1: have these little different rat lines through other government agencies

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Speaker 1: that do other stuff too, but that you're also able

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Speaker 1: to shotgun money through or have operatives in because again

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Speaker 1: there's no limit to what the CIA can do if

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Speaker 1: the President tells them to or if they're pretty sure

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Speaker 1: the President would have told them too, but they didn't

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Speaker 1: want to bother him about it, so they just did

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Speaker 1: it anyway, which is also something the CIA does. Cool dudes, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: as John Krasinski said, we should be thankful for them

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Speaker 1: every day. Jason, did you catch when John Krasinski got

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Speaker 1: into a Twitter fight with Cody over that? No? I didn't.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, Well, there's there was an account that kept

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Speaker 1: really dragging Cody for Cody dragging John Krasinski for talking

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Speaker 1: about how great the CIA is, and people started to

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Speaker 1: think that maybe it was John Krasinski. And then there's

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Speaker 1: a thing you can do where you can see some

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Speaker 1: of the letters in uh, somebody's email address if you

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Speaker 1: try to get their password on Facebook and it seems

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Speaker 1: to match with John Krasinski's email. It was a good time.

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Speaker 1: We all had a fun week um with John Krasinski

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Speaker 1: and Cody arguing. Cody Johnston friend of the pod um. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: all right, I'm sorry, let's let's just get into this episode.

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Speaker 1: So from the beginning, the more intelligent members of the

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Speaker 1: federal government had their reservations about the CIA. The United

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Speaker 1: States has never before had an international intelligence agency outside

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Speaker 1: of wartime, let alone one with the purview as wide

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Speaker 1: as whatever the president says. Um Dean Atchison, President Truman's

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Speaker 1: foreign policy adviser and an eventual Secretary of State expressed

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Speaker 1: quote gravest forebodings about the CIA when it was established.

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Speaker 1: He warned the President that quote, neither he, nor the

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Speaker 1: National Security Council, nor anyone else would be in a

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Speaker 1: position to know what it was doing or to control it.

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Speaker 1: Harry Truman himself leader wrote, it was not intended to

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Speaker 1: be a cloak and dagger outfit. It was intended merely

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Speaker 1: as a center for keeping the President informed on what

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Speaker 1: was going on in the world. Now, it's debatable as

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Speaker 1: to whether or not Harry Truman's being honest here right

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Speaker 1: like did was that really your intent? Or did you

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Speaker 1: just see what happened and want to distance yourself from it?

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Speaker 1: That can be argued. But if Truman's goal from the

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Speaker 1: beginning was for it to be very different than what

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Speaker 1: it became, he and didn't really fight hard to stop

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Speaker 1: it from a changing. Six months after the CIA's creation,

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Speaker 1: communists in Czechoslovakia carried out what is often referred to

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Speaker 1: as a constitutional coup. Now, the history here is complex,

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Speaker 1: but in brief, at the end of World War Two,

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Speaker 1: the Czech Communist Party was super popular due to the

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Speaker 1: fact that they fought against the Nazis and the fact

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Speaker 1: that the USSR had liberated Czechoslovakia from the Nazis. Communism

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Speaker 1: was pretty popular at the end of the war um

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Speaker 1: the party grew from about fifty thousand members of nineteen

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Speaker 1: forty five to well over a million by nineteen forty eight.

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Speaker 1: It swept the nineteen forty six elections, winning thirty eight

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Speaker 1: percent of the vote, which is still the best ever

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Speaker 1: performance of a European communist party in a free election. Now,

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Speaker 1: since Czechoslovakia was a parliamentary democracy, the Communists didn't take

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Speaker 1: complete power because they'd won. They just were like the

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Speaker 1: dominant block and government. You know, that's how parliaments work.

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Speaker 1: But they quickly alienated voters and fractured the broad left

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Speaker 1: wing alliance they've been a part of, you know, understandable reasons.

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Speaker 1: Once you take power, you're never as popular as you

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Speaker 1: are when you're trying to get it. It became clear

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Speaker 1: that the next set of elections were going to go

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Speaker 1: worse for the Communists, and so they used their control

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Speaker 1: of the police and a network of trade union militious

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Speaker 1: to seize total power. This set off alarm bells across

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Speaker 1: the West and led to a sort of paranoia that

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Speaker 1: other European communist parties were just biding their time. Until

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Speaker 1: they could carry out the same kind of coup. So

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Speaker 1: the CIA used this in as an excuse to start

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Speaker 1: pouring money into operations aimed at countering other European communist parties,

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Speaker 1: namely in Italy and France. In Italy, they funded a

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Speaker 1: Christian nationalist party that was seen as pro us, and

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Speaker 1: they recruited Catholic officials to preach against communism. They drowned

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Speaker 1: the nation in a wave of propaganda. Alan Doles was

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Speaker 1: not yet a regular employee of the CIA, but he

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Speaker 1: took a leave of absence from his lawyering to kind

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Speaker 1: of pro bono help organize CIA efforts in Italy, because

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Speaker 1: again he missed the fun of being a spy. Now,

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Speaker 1: the fact that Alan Dullis had traveled to Italy to

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Speaker 1: help the CIA did not go unnoticed. Again, he's a

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Speaker 1: bad spy. The Boston Globe ran an article with the

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Speaker 1: headline Dullas masterminds new Cold War plan under secret agents.

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Speaker 1: So really bad at being a secret agent. I just

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Speaker 1: can't emphasize this enough. Kind of the way that James

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Speaker 1: Bond catched his catch phrases him telling people his name, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: if you're if you're a famous spy, that's bad. But

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Speaker 1: he was a famous spy. Yeah, he was a famous spy,

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Speaker 1: which you shouldn't be so at this stage of things,

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Speaker 1: the CIA's aide in Italy, Will Aid, is a weird

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Speaker 1: that what this? You know, the ship the CIA is

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Speaker 1: doing in Italy was entirely focused around propaganda and providing

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Speaker 1: funds to sympathetic politicians are mostly focused. But even at

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Speaker 1: this early stage, Alan and his colleagues were just discussing

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Speaker 1: the possibility of organizing mass violence as a way to

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Speaker 1: achieve their ends. They reached out to several officers in

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Speaker 1: the Italian military with the aim of organizing a couta

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Speaker 1: ta if the Communists won. From right up by the

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Speaker 1: Wilson Center quote, they viewed the project as possessing an

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Speaker 1: extremely grave implications, carrying with it the probability of plunging

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Speaker 1: Italy into a bloody civil war and seriously hazarding the

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Speaker 1: start of World War Three. But since the scheme represented

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Speaker 1: a final, though thorough desperate action to hold Italy for

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Speaker 1: the Western Bloc, they did not want to discard it

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Speaker 1: and recommended immediate exploration. So they decide, like, okay, Italy

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Speaker 1: might go Communists, we have to set up a network

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Speaker 1: capable of carrying out a coup if the Communist went

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Speaker 1: an election, we have to like get all these guys

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Speaker 1: in the army to help, to be willing to overthrow

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Speaker 1: the government. Even though if that happens it might start

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Speaker 1: World War three and end all life and hume on Earth,

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Speaker 1: the fact that it would stop Italy from going communist

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Speaker 1: is a worthy risk. Like that's the cost been, Like

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Speaker 1: we have them in writing making that cost benefit analysis basics.

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Speaker 1: Once you have an enemy that you've decided as an

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Speaker 1: existential threat to everything, and as we mentioned in the

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Speaker 1: last episode, that became the habit of making sure we

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Speaker 1: always had one of those ye, you will have a

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Speaker 1: blank check to do absolutely anything in anything, including exterminating

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Speaker 1: life on Earth. We were and are fully prepared to

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Speaker 1: render the species extinct rather than let it continue on

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Speaker 1: under communism. If you sit back and think about that,

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Speaker 1: that's kind of weird. Yeah, it's it's a little odd

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Speaker 1: because like, I'm not a I'm not a state communist,

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Speaker 1: but I think life, even with all the critiques I

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Speaker 1: have of the U. S s R, still better than death.

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Speaker 1: But once that template was established after World War Two,

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Speaker 1: it would always be so and we mentioned last episode

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Speaker 1: that after Nino and then like Islam and the encroaching,

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Speaker 1: like the fear of you had, you had small towns

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Speaker 1: in America passing laws saying that they could not be

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Speaker 1: ruled by Sharia law. Yeah, yeah, exactly. There's some small

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Speaker 1: town in Nebraska afraid that it any day now the

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Speaker 1: Muslims are going to come take over that small town.

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Speaker 1: And because that's our only way we can think about problems.

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Speaker 1: So if you have that in mind that at any moment,

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Speaker 1: Islam is going to utterly take over the world and

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Speaker 1: depose capitalism. Capitalism the most unkillable idea in the history

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Speaker 1: of civilization, like almost impossibly durable ideology. Yeah, yeah, the idea.

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Speaker 1: Once you've sold the idea that civilization and freedom and

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Speaker 1: free markets and capitalism are utterly fragile and at any

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Speaker 1: moment can be toppled by the next threat on the horizon,

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Speaker 1: whether it's communism, whether it's the Muslims. What are the

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Speaker 1: next thing is going to be? And we must do anything, anything,

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Speaker 1: anything is morally justified, and stopping it, you're doomed. You

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Speaker 1: have set yourself down a dark road because there's no

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Speaker 1: checks in that direction. The moment anyone says, hey, you

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Speaker 1: went too far, it's like, oh, so you're a secret comy.

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Speaker 1: And that was that was the atmosphere the Dulles Is

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Speaker 1: established and would establish, and that we've lived under until now.

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Speaker 1: You can still scare. You can win elections today with

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Speaker 1: the red scare. People are still just as afraid of

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Speaker 1: Communism as they were, which is bizarre. Like the idea

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Speaker 1: that Donald Trump can talk about encroaching Marxism in America,

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Speaker 1: It's like, what power do Marxists have in this country?

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Speaker 1: But it doesn't matter that fear run is now etched

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Speaker 1: into our d n A and you can thank the

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Speaker 1: Dullest Brothers for that to a very large extent, you

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Speaker 1: really can um. It's bleak um. It's I really it

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Speaker 1: would be nice to be able to have because it,

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Speaker 1: you know, it leads to this, It leads to this,

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Speaker 1: this kind of same thing on the other end of things,

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Speaker 1: where because of this the way that kind of these

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Speaker 1: tensions around communism when I get ratcheted because just that's

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Speaker 1: the way we go when we talk about enemies and

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Speaker 1: our culture right that it's existential, you get It's led

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Speaker 1: to this complete death of nuance on all sides. So

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Speaker 1: now if you're if you're on the far left, you

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Speaker 1: can't be like, you can't analyze geopolitics by saying like, okay,

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Speaker 1: well who's the right and who's in the wrong. There's

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Speaker 1: a lot of people who just be like, well, whoever

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Speaker 1: is not the United States is in the right, and

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Speaker 1: that leads them to back Bashar al Assad or whatever

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Speaker 1: um or, or back Russia, or think that that China

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Speaker 1: is is this perfect um embodiment of the socialism they want.

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Speaker 1: It's it all. It infects everything. I guess the fact

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Speaker 1: that everyone has to be at this level of every

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Speaker 1: threat as an existential threat, every threat ends an extermination.

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Speaker 1: I I think it just it has got it. It's

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Speaker 1: so deep into our culture that it affects everything, and

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Speaker 1: that's probably bad. It's it's extremely important to understand that mindset, though,

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Speaker 1: because this is this is what we'll govern, the way

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Speaker 1: they're going to do business for the rest of the

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Speaker 1: time they're in power, that the Dulleses are in power,

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Speaker 1: which is about to start very soon, because everything we've discussed,

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Speaker 1: when these guys should have ruined their career as many

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Speaker 1: times over, they will both be rewarded by becoming two

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Speaker 1: of the most powerful people on earth in the history

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Speaker 1: that we've laid out is going to get them elevated

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Speaker 1: to about as high as you can go without being president.

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Speaker 1: And I in ways more powerful than presidents some presidents

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Speaker 1: they both served longer. Yeah, so definitely they're both more

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Speaker 1: powerful than Jimmy Carter was. I think we can all

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Speaker 1: agree on that. So yeah. In France, the CIA intervened

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Speaker 1: to crush a Communist led strike of duck dock workers

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Speaker 1: in Marseille. They developed an ongoing relationship with several clans

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Speaker 1: of Corsican gangsters who they hired and used to violently

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Speaker 1: crushed the labor movement in Marseilles in nine and again

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Speaker 1: in nineteen fifty. And I think this is kind of

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Speaker 1: the first example of the CIA basically bringing in a

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Speaker 1: mercenary force to do violence against their political enemies. And

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Speaker 1: it's I don't I don't know that anyone dies, and

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Speaker 1: they might have happened. I haven't found a lot of

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Speaker 1: detail on this, but this is kind of the very beginning. Now,

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Speaker 1: while Alan Dulas was helping his colleagues in the Agency

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Speaker 1: explore the boundaries of their new powers, Foster Dulas was

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Speaker 1: still a lawyer for Sullivan and Cromwell. He continued to

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Speaker 1: dip his toes into politics, growing deeper woven into the

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Speaker 1: upper strata of the Republican Party as the nineteen fifties

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Speaker 1: took off. His attitude about international orders started to shift.

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Speaker 1: Before and during World War Two. As we talked about

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Speaker 1: last episode, he believed the root of conflict was the

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Speaker 1: failure of national leaders to cooperate. Right, that's why you know,

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Speaker 1: you want to spread all this business around because it

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Speaker 1: creates these these inner connections that can bring peace. Now,

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Speaker 1: Foster's view shifted as the Cold War kicked off. He

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Speaker 1: came to believe that all global instability had its roots

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Speaker 1: in the action of a single nation, the Soviet Union. Now,

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Speaker 1: this was a period in which, and I guess you

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Speaker 1: can say that's kind of consistent to his earlier view,

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Speaker 1: because the Soviet Union doesn't ostensibly accept you know, business

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Speaker 1: interests and stuff. So I don't know, maybe that's how

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Speaker 1: he justified it in his head. This was a period though,

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Speaker 1: in which labor movements and anti colonial movements were taking

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Speaker 1: off in Africa and Indo China and in Latin America

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Speaker 1: just to name a few places. Um Foster viewed all

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Speaker 1: of this as not the results of decades of oppression,

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Speaker 1: of poverty, of exploitation, but as the result of Soviet meddling.

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Speaker 1: From the Brothers quote, he began reading and rereading Problems

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Speaker 1: of Leninism, a collection of Stalin's essays and speeches. By

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Speaker 1: one account, he owned six or more pencil marked copies

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Speaker 1: and kept each in one of his workplaces. He considered

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Speaker 1: it a blueprint for world conquest and came to believe

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Speaker 1: that the October Revolution had basically been the seed of

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Speaker 1: an inevitable process that, if left unchecked, would end the

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Speaker 1: very existence of world capitalism. Now, Foster believed that Soviet

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Speaker 1: Communism was doing to the West into the Christian world

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Speaker 1: what Islam had done hundreds of years earlier, and a

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Speaker 1: lot of his writings he would draw a direct connection

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Speaker 1: between what Islam did during like the time that's kind

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Speaker 1: of the Muslim empires were expanding, and then what we

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Speaker 1: call the medieval period um and he would draw a

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Speaker 1: line between that and Soviet communism, which I find interesting

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Speaker 1: because in the you know, the twenty one century, a

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Speaker 1: lot of conservatives drew back to kind of Soviet like

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Speaker 1: the kind of the way we talked about the Soviet

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Speaker 1: Union to talk about the problems of radical Islam. It's

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Speaker 1: just interesting that Foster recognized. I guess that connection too

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Speaker 1: in a way both because they're there are both is

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Speaker 1: He sought threats to the Christian Western order. Um, and

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Speaker 1: if you want to see the perfect intersection of those saying,

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Speaker 1: watched the movie Rambo three. Yes, like not a joke, Um,

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Speaker 1: it's all in there. So Foster was willing to admit,

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Speaker 1: it's interesting to me that that Auster sees Soviet Communism

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Speaker 1: as this kind of existential threat in a way that

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Speaker 1: he didn't see Nazism. He was willing later on to

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Speaker 1: admit that the Nazis had committed terrible crimes, and even

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Speaker 1: that those crimes had had their roots to night Nazi ideology,

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Speaker 1: but he accepted Nazism as essentially Western Communism, he thought

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Speaker 1: was an ultimate evil and impossible to compromise with. You

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Speaker 1: can compromise with Nazis, Foster believed you can't compromise with Communists,

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Speaker 1: which is ironic in part because both the Nazis and

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Speaker 1: Communists compromise with each other on a number of occasions.

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Speaker 1: But that's aside the point now. In his columns and speeches,

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Speaker 1: Dulas insisted that the United States was in a struggle

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Speaker 1: to the death with Communism. Defeat would mean the end

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Speaker 1: of humanity. Quote, we are the only great nation whose

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Speaker 1: people have not been drained physically or spiritually. It devolves

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Speaker 1: upon us to give leadership and restoring principle as a

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Speaker 1: guide to conduct. If we do not do that, the

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Speaker 1: world will not be worth living in. Indeed, it probably

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Speaker 1: will be a world in which human beings cannot live again.

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Speaker 1: The victory of communism is the extermination of the human race.

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Speaker 1: That's the only way this ends. Um. Yeah. Now, it's

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Speaker 1: worth noting that Foster Dulus was not unopposed in his views.

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Speaker 1: One man who argued against him was Reinhold Neiber, who

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Speaker 1: he'd served with in the Just Endurable Peace Commission after

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Speaker 1: the war. Neiber weren't warned that the great danger to

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Speaker 1: the West was not Communism but the American ego, writing quote,

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Speaker 1: if we should perish, the ruthlessness of the foe would

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Speaker 1: only be the secondary cause of the disaster. The primary

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Speaker 1: cause would be that the strength of a great nation

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Speaker 1: was directed by eyes too blind to see all the

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Speaker 1: hazards of the struggle, and the blindness would be induced

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Speaker 1: not by some accident of nature or history, but by

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Speaker 1: hatred and vain glory, which I think is accurate both

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Speaker 1: then and now. Like you can s the same thing

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Speaker 1: about our response to nine eleven. In a lot of ways, Um,

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Speaker 1: the danger is not what actual attacks the enemy carries out.

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Speaker 1: It's about how our egos lead us to react to them.

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Speaker 1: That's extremely key here, because the entire purpose of doing

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Speaker 1: this series and why it's relevant and why it's interesting

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Speaker 1: lies in my opinion, and that the reason the Dulles

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Speaker 1: doesn't matter is because this ideology that everything stopping communism

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Speaker 1: justifies anything and everything. That's what they brought to the

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Speaker 1: world or helped cement in the world, because that's what

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Speaker 1: that quote that you you know, you read off there

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Speaker 1: about that like surrendering, surrendering to communism means extinction of

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Speaker 1: the human race, as if communism is a cancer that's

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Speaker 1: growing in the body of humanity. That sounds like the

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Speaker 1: ranting of an extremist, crazy person at a rally, that

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Speaker 1: that would bayly become the de facto American belief for

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Speaker 1: the next half century. Everything about the way we behaved

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Speaker 1: and everything that the CIA did, it all comes back

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Speaker 1: to that and the fact that that was so easy

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Speaker 1: to abuse. Because once you've established that any pro labor

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Speaker 1: movement is secretly communist, you now have justification to to

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Speaker 1: intervene anywhere labor rights spring up in the name of

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Speaker 1: stamping out the seeds of communism. Because of that slippery

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Speaker 1: slope fallacy, where anywhere you have workers taking to the

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Speaker 1: streets and demanding better conditions, are demanding whatever things that

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Speaker 1: otherwise would seem distinctly American, you can now justify intervention

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Speaker 1: in any in all sorts of underhand ways, based on, well,

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Speaker 1: this is fighting the cancer, this is fighting the knife

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Speaker 1: at the throat of humanity that is communist. Someome where

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Speaker 1: there's some alternate reality where the capitalists simply says, hey,

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Speaker 1: will outcompete them, will show them the capitalism is better,

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Speaker 1: will you know, will lead by example, will become so

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Speaker 1: strong with our economy that we will prove that communism

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Speaker 1: doesn't work, that that is not the path they took. Nope,

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Speaker 1: And it's you know, there's an interesting similarity to me

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Speaker 1: when we talk about the way the rhetoric works and

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Speaker 1: where it leads people to something I see kind of

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Speaker 1: in the I'm seeing increasingly become common on on both

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Speaker 1: the kind of extremist libertarian and the extremist right wing

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Speaker 1: um with groups like the Proud Boys and groups like

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Speaker 1: the Boogaloo Boys, where they walk around the shirts that

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Speaker 1: are that say shoot your local pedophile, and they're not.

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Speaker 1: Their problem is not actually with pedophiles. What they are

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Speaker 1: doing is equatings basically saying this thing, this thing that

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Speaker 1: comes up again and again in conspiratorial culture where all

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Speaker 1: of your enemies are secretly pedophiles, And the reason you

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Speaker 1: would want to do that is because you can do

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Speaker 1: anything to a pedophile. It's the ultimate evil. So I

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Speaker 1: wear these shirts that harry these signs that same opposing pedophiles,

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Speaker 1: and whoever I'm beating up is a pedophile, right, Like,

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Speaker 1: that's that's it's this, it's the same. I know it's

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Speaker 1: not the same kind of logic, but it's an extension

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Speaker 1: of that logic of if the enemy is ultimate, then

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Speaker 1: all remedies are on the table, you know, yeah, because

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Speaker 1: there can be because at that point, any nuance is weakness.

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Speaker 1: Any nuance and how you approach like, oh, so you

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Speaker 1: want nuance, and how you approach pedophile as well, we

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Speaker 1: know what you are. It's because they want to shut

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Speaker 1: down any discussion of what they're doing, and that lets

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Speaker 1: you go as far as you want, because if you

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Speaker 1: can just tag your enemies as whatever, this trump card,

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Speaker 1: this trump card of evil that you know at this point,

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Speaker 1: there's nothing that even needs to be discussed. Look, there

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Speaker 1: will be people possibly who listen to this episode or

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Speaker 1: these series and say, oh, so you prefer a world

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Speaker 1: and wish everyone's living under the flag of the Soviet

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Speaker 1: Union or in which these countries fall under. It's like

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Speaker 1: that's a child's thinking that that the foreign policy is

428
00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:17,760
Speaker 1: black and white, and this battle between good and evil.

429
00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:21,000
Speaker 1: That's the stuff of blockbuster movies. That's not how the

430
00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:26,400
Speaker 1: real world works. But it's not. And but again it's

431
00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:28,679
Speaker 1: so pervasive because you get this attitude on the other

432
00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:30,440
Speaker 1: side and the people who read who know a lot

433
00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:32,280
Speaker 1: of this stuff that we're saying about the dullest and

434
00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:35,400
Speaker 1: who it radicalizes them. But part of what they take

435
00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:38,080
Speaker 1: out of it as well, then everything I've heard bad

436
00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:40,360
Speaker 1: about the Soviet Union must be a lie. And that's

437
00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:42,159
Speaker 1: complicated by the fact that we did tell a lot

438
00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:44,879
Speaker 1: of lies about the Soviet Union. But that doesn't mean

439
00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:47,320
Speaker 1: it was a good government. Like it. For one thing,

440
00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:50,120
Speaker 1: it like it didn't work out in the long run. Um,

441
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:53,399
Speaker 1: but you you get this, you can't. I don't know.

442
00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:56,200
Speaker 1: There's there's no room for nuance. Um. If you decide

443
00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:58,720
Speaker 1: one side is bad, then whoever they're in opposition to

444
00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:02,159
Speaker 1: has to be good and your friends and it can't

445
00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:07,080
Speaker 1: ever be complicated because again, if it's complicated, if it's nuanced,

446
00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:09,560
Speaker 1: then for one thing, the level of the number of

447
00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:13,560
Speaker 1: options you have and sort of confronting it are are reduced,

448
00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:17,920
Speaker 1: and you don't get to necessarily feel great about what

449
00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:23,560
Speaker 1: you did or whatever. But movies give you a black

450
00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:27,560
Speaker 1: and white version of reality because it is a fantasy

451
00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:31,360
Speaker 1: that that the pure morality, where the bad guys literally

452
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:36,000
Speaker 1: refer to themselves as the dark side. It's that's that's

453
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:39,280
Speaker 1: a fantasy. That's not how it exists. And so you

454
00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:42,840
Speaker 1: can have people in the name of fighting something that

455
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:48,359
Speaker 1: is truly bad, such as child predators, and using that

456
00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:53,199
Speaker 1: as justification to do unrelated terrible things, and that doesn't

457
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:57,960
Speaker 1: make them heroes. It's the world is messy like that.

458
00:25:58,119 --> 00:25:59,959
Speaker 1: This is why, for those of you who have been

459
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:02,320
Speaker 1: listening through this whole series, the very first thing I

460
00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:06,879
Speaker 1: asked was do you think the dulles Is were true believers?

461
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:08,920
Speaker 1: Do you think they believed in what they were doing,

462
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:12,320
Speaker 1: that they were actually saving the world. And the answer

463
00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:19,160
Speaker 1: to that is difficult to decipher even as individuals, because

464
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:21,919
Speaker 1: the two brothers approached this from very different directions, and

465
00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:25,960
Speaker 1: we need see the decisions they made and the and

466
00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:28,440
Speaker 1: then the position they took later in life is very

467
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:31,919
Speaker 1: different where they started. Even in this case of two people,

468
00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:35,560
Speaker 1: it's hard to discern did they actually think they were

469
00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:38,720
Speaker 1: fighting on behalf of good or were they just using

470
00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:42,200
Speaker 1: it as cover to do things on behalf of their

471
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:45,679
Speaker 1: former clients from that law firm. And it's also I

472
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:49,280
Speaker 1: think sometimes it's a mix of things. UM. I'll compare this.

473
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:51,959
Speaker 1: I'll compare this to some some of the kids in

474
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:55,800
Speaker 1: Portland who do UM, do some of the rioting. UM.

475
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 1: I think there are people who believe strongly that because

476
00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:01,560
Speaker 1: of how bad these issues with policing are, because of

477
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:04,240
Speaker 1: how and just capitalism is, and because of how ineffective

478
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:07,320
Speaker 1: peaceful protests has seemed to be in their in their lives,

479
00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:10,160
Speaker 1: the best thing they can do is to go out

480
00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:14,840
Speaker 1: and cause damage right to to businesses, UM to to

481
00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:19,680
Speaker 1: police infrastructure. Because that gets attention, that brings people, makes

482
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,639
Speaker 1: people care about the issue, and that that accomplishes you know,

483
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:24,359
Speaker 1: they'll point to like the burning of the Third Precinct

484
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:26,719
Speaker 1: in Minneapolis and the impact that had on getting some

485
00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:30,560
Speaker 1: variant of justice for George Floyd. UM. And they're there there,

486
00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:33,600
Speaker 1: and and that's logically consistent. I believe that they do

487
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:35,600
Speaker 1: believe that when they go out and they light a fire,

488
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:38,520
Speaker 1: some of those other people will also during that, you know,

489
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:42,240
Speaker 1: loot from an apple store. And I think that taking

490
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:45,119
Speaker 1: stuff from the apple store. Not that I'm equating that

491
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:48,639
Speaker 1: morally with overthrowing governments, but there's a mix of I

492
00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:50,879
Speaker 1: believe in this thing, but also here's an opportunity for me,

493
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:52,560
Speaker 1: you know, like, oh, I can get a free thing

494
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:55,119
Speaker 1: to write like it's it's it's an opportunity. It's a

495
00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:58,159
Speaker 1: mix of belief and opportunity. And I think you see that.

496
00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:00,719
Speaker 1: I think you see that in everybody, right. And I

497
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:03,639
Speaker 1: think sometimes we've tried to find justifications for things that

498
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:07,840
Speaker 1: are our opportunities for us, UM when we're also doing

499
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:10,440
Speaker 1: things we believe in. I think it kind of everybody

500
00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:12,600
Speaker 1: does that. These guys are just doing it at a

501
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:14,520
Speaker 1: much bigger scale. But I think it is a mix

502
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:18,280
Speaker 1: of I believe, at least for Foster, I believe these

503
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:20,960
Speaker 1: things about the world. I believe in this struggle. I

504
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:23,280
Speaker 1: believe that the stakes are this high. Oh, but also

505
00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:26,239
Speaker 1: I can help this guy that you know is paying me,

506
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:29,800
Speaker 1: I can help him out too while furthering the struggle.

507
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:32,640
Speaker 1: I I do think it. You know, it's a mix

508
00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:36,280
Speaker 1: of things. And you have factions within the government, within

509
00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 1: the business community where they may have some other motivation

510
00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:42,400
Speaker 1: for seeing a government overthrown. They may have been they

511
00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:44,720
Speaker 1: may have run into opposition and trying to build a

512
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 1: factory there, or a rubber factory or whatever. And so

513
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:51,440
Speaker 1: then it's very easy say, well, you know, he's secretly

514
00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:55,320
Speaker 1: friendly with communists or whatever. Same way as with the

515
00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:57,040
Speaker 1: Red scare in the United States, if you had a

516
00:28:57,080 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 1: beef with somebody and he wanted to get them rejected

517
00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:02,320
Speaker 1: from the industry, it was you could drum up that, well,

518
00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:05,320
Speaker 1: you know, he attended a meeting of communists last month.

519
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,520
Speaker 1: I can prove it. And that even though you personally

520
00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:12,520
Speaker 1: have no concern about communism where anything whatsoever, it becomes

521
00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:15,680
Speaker 1: a convenient opportunity to jump on board and use that

522
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:18,760
Speaker 1: as an excuse all of the stuff. This is not

523
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:20,960
Speaker 1: off the subject. This is this is this is the

524
00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:25,080
Speaker 1: this is explaining. Yeah, why America was the way it

525
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:27,680
Speaker 1: was because you did have a combination of true believers,

526
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:29,600
Speaker 1: but then you had a lot of people who saw

527
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:33,680
Speaker 1: opportunity to jump to jump in. Yes, that is exactly

528
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:36,000
Speaker 1: what we're what we're going to be talking about all

529
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:40,600
Speaker 1: day today. First, take an AD break, though, Yeah, Sophie,

530
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:42,440
Speaker 1: you know what, why don't you take an AD break? Huh?

531
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:48,800
Speaker 1: I would love to. I would Okay, Well go do it, Sophie.

532
00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:56,880
Speaker 1: We'll be back soon. We're back. So if he just

533
00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:00,440
Speaker 1: took an AD break, it was lovely, great time. Thank you, complain,

534
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:04,640
Speaker 1: I'm glad. In April of ninety eight, while the Secretary

535
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 1: of State was in Bogata for a conference, one of

536
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:11,600
Speaker 1: Columbia's elected leaders was assassinated. This sparked riots and mass

537
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:14,600
Speaker 1: violence that killed thousands, and eventually this kind of We've

538
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:18,080
Speaker 1: talked about violencia in Colombia a couple of times on

539
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:21,280
Speaker 1: this podcast, including during the Protocols episodes. This this kind

540
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:23,440
Speaker 1: of fed into that hundreds of thousands of people died

541
00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 1: by the time it was all over. In short, what happened,

542
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:29,280
Speaker 1: the assassination of this leader in Colombia and the violence

543
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:32,440
Speaker 1: that followed it was the result of a number of things.

544
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:35,440
Speaker 1: Growing conspiracism, you know, we've talked about that in the

545
00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 1: Protocols episode, violent rhetoric among the right wing, the linguer,

546
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:43,080
Speaker 1: results of economic depression, severe inequality, a bunch of stuff

547
00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:46,080
Speaker 1: contributed to the fact that left and right in Columbia

548
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:50,080
Speaker 1: started massacring each other. For years um but American leaders

549
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:53,480
Speaker 1: paid had paid zero attention to Colombian politics. None of

550
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:55,840
Speaker 1: them knew any of the history, none of them had

551
00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:58,840
Speaker 1: paid attention to why this was happening, and so they

552
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:01,120
Speaker 1: just kind of assumed that the violence had come out

553
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:04,640
Speaker 1: of nowhere. And Foster Dulles decided this meant that the

554
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:08,440
Speaker 1: violence was the fault of Moscow, that, oh, this seemed

555
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:10,000
Speaker 1: to come out of nowhere because I haven't been paying

556
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:12,760
Speaker 1: attention to Columbia. It must be the Soviets fault, right,

557
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:16,880
Speaker 1: they're trying to destabilize our backyard. The seizure of power

558
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:19,880
Speaker 1: by Czech communists and the violence in Columbia we're seeing

559
00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:22,840
Speaker 1: as proof that the Soviet Union was orchestrating a grand

560
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:26,360
Speaker 1: global plan to destroy the United States. A Senate report

561
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 1: later claimed US leaders were in a state of quote

562
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:33,920
Speaker 1: near hysteria by June of nineteen. So like they're actually

563
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:35,760
Speaker 1: freaked out about this, right, this is not a bunch

564
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:39,960
Speaker 1: of cold calculating you know, capitalists plotting to destroy this.

565
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:41,720
Speaker 1: So these are these are got a lot of people,

566
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:44,800
Speaker 1: a lot of the people who are necessary in order

567
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:46,680
Speaker 1: for the crimes we were about to talk about to happen.

568
00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:50,760
Speaker 1: Believe truly that like the they're staring down the barrel

569
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:54,120
Speaker 1: of a Soviet rifle, so to speak. That same month,

570
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:58,160
Speaker 1: June of the National Security Council issued Directive n SC

571
00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:02,280
Speaker 1: tende Slash two secret order approved by President Truman that

572
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:05,960
Speaker 1: increased the CIA's power. The directive stated that the U

573
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:09,000
Speaker 1: s SR had launched a vicious campaign against the US,

574
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:12,240
Speaker 1: and in return, the CIA had to carry out propaganda,

575
00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:17,840
Speaker 1: economic warfare, preventative direct action, including sabotage, anti sabotage, demolition

576
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:22,560
Speaker 1: and evacuation measures, and subversion against hostile states, including assistance

577
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:27,440
Speaker 1: to underground resistance movement guerrillas and refugee liberation groups. These

578
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 1: operations were to be quote so planned and executed that

579
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:33,680
Speaker 1: any U s Government responsibility for them is not evident

580
00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:36,720
Speaker 1: to unauthorized persons, and that if uncovered, the U. S.

581
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:41,480
Speaker 1: Government can plausibly disclaim any responsibility for them. Now, the

582
00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:45,000
Speaker 1: fact that this was being pushed and had been done

583
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 1: by Truman caused an uproar. It actually sparked something of

584
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:51,640
Speaker 1: a civil war in the Republican Party between isolationist and

585
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:56,200
Speaker 1: internationalist conservatives and the Dullest brothers are in a nationalist

586
00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:58,440
Speaker 1: right because they think that the U. S Should intervene

587
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:02,800
Speaker 1: internationally to protect cap um. That said, during this big

588
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:05,400
Speaker 1: debate within the Republican Party, they were mostly on the

589
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:08,760
Speaker 1: outside looking in. They still spent the vast majority of

590
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:11,840
Speaker 1: their time working for Sullivan and Cromwell. Alan Dullis is

591
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:14,760
Speaker 1: not a CIA employee. He's kind of contracted with them

592
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:17,200
Speaker 1: a few times, but he's not a full time employee,

593
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:21,640
Speaker 1: and Fosters still doing law stuff. Um Foster did help

594
00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:24,160
Speaker 1: in the negotiations that led to the creation of NATO

595
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:27,880
Speaker 1: um Alan during this period mostly obsessed over trying to

596
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:30,640
Speaker 1: make the CIA a bigger and bigger thing, because again

597
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:33,400
Speaker 1: he really missed the fun ship he'd done during the war.

598
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:36,880
Speaker 1: His quest was helped along in June of nineteen fifty

599
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:40,520
Speaker 1: when North Korea invaded South Korea. We now know that

600
00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:44,000
Speaker 1: Stalin and the uss are were not behind this invasion,

601
00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:46,520
Speaker 1: and in fact, a lot of folks within the Soviet

602
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:48,760
Speaker 1: Union didn't think it was a good idea at all.

603
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:51,080
Speaker 1: It was it was it was really not their call.

604
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:53,320
Speaker 1: It was a thing that North Korea decided to do.

605
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:57,080
Speaker 1: But America, the Americans assumed that this was part of

606
00:33:57,080 --> 00:33:59,400
Speaker 1: this vast secret war the Soviets were carrying out that

607
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:01,880
Speaker 1: like everyone was happening in Colombia, what had happened in

608
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:05,200
Speaker 1: Czechoslovakia and North Korea. These are all again, these are

609
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:08,000
Speaker 1: all like pieces on a chessboard that the Soviets are

610
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:11,640
Speaker 1: playing um in order to wipe out Christian capitalist civilization.

611
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:15,480
Speaker 1: The unexpectedness of the attack convinced many that the United

612
00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:18,080
Speaker 1: States needed to put more money and invest more power

613
00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 1: into the CIA so that future attacks wouldn't come as

614
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:24,600
Speaker 1: a surprise. In autumn, the Director of the CIA hired

615
00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:28,200
Speaker 1: Alan Dullas for a six week consultants contract. At the

616
00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:30,480
Speaker 1: end of the contract, he was offered the job of

617
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:35,000
Speaker 1: Deputy Director of Operations. This gave Alan Dullas control over

618
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:39,640
Speaker 1: all covert operations carried out by the US overseas. One

619
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:42,120
Speaker 1: of his first acts was to convince Congress to approve

620
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:45,680
Speaker 1: a hundred million dollars for the CIA to arm paramilitary

621
00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:50,280
Speaker 1: groups exiled from various Communist nations. Dullas sent agents across

622
00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:53,840
Speaker 1: the world to launch attacks and foment rebellions. Many of

623
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:57,799
Speaker 1: these guys were caught immediately. Alan Dulas actually sent thousands

624
00:34:57,800 --> 00:34:59,880
Speaker 1: of people to death in the first couple of years

625
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:02,600
Speaker 1: he was had this position in the CIA, and he

626
00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:05,799
Speaker 1: felt no guilt about any of this, saying, quote, at

627
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:11,920
Speaker 1: least we're getting experience for the next war. Yeah, that's

628
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:13,880
Speaker 1: the kind of guy who gets this job. He doesn't

629
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:17,400
Speaker 1: see these people as people now. Allen's first major success

630
00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:20,919
Speaker 1: would come in nineteen fifty two when Republican Dwight Eisenhower

631
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:23,920
Speaker 1: and Democrat Adela Stevenson fought over who would get to

632
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:26,960
Speaker 1: be the president. Alan. While this was happening, turned his

633
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:30,640
Speaker 1: eyes towards the lovely nation of Guatemala. Then and now,

634
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 1: Guatemala was a very poor country and the largest landowner

635
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:37,600
Speaker 1: was the United Fruit Company, a longtime client of Sullivan

636
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:40,560
Speaker 1: and Cromwell. Foster Dullus had done work for them in

637
00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:44,440
Speaker 1: the past. The Devil's chessboard gives a pretty good overview

638
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:47,680
Speaker 1: of the situation in Guatemala. By the late nineteen forties. Quote,

639
00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:51,480
Speaker 1: the giant company, whose operations sprawled throughout the Caribbean, ran

640
00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:54,719
Speaker 1: Guatemala less like a banana republic than a banana colony.

641
00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:58,280
Speaker 1: United Fruit not only owned huge plantations, but almost every

642
00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:00,920
Speaker 1: mile of railroad track in the count tree, the only

643
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:04,360
Speaker 1: major Atlantic port, and the telephone system, and the capital

644
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:08,399
Speaker 1: rulers came and went at the whim of the company. Now.

645
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:12,239
Speaker 1: One of these rulers was Jorge Ubiko, who considered the

646
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:16,640
Speaker 1: peasants of Guatemala to be beasts of burden, fit only

647
00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:19,600
Speaker 1: to labor for the rich. Under his reign in the

648
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:23,480
Speaker 1: early nineteen forties, guatemal and farm workers were roped together

649
00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:27,880
Speaker 1: like animals and delivered by the army to United Fruit plantations,

650
00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:30,880
Speaker 1: where they were forced to work in debt slavery to

651
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:34,120
Speaker 1: the country, to the company or to other landowners like

652
00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:37,479
Speaker 1: this was like our bananas were made by slave labor.

653
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:41,440
Speaker 1: They were chaining men together to force them to pick fruit.

654
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:45,920
Speaker 1: Sevent of Guatemala's land was owned by two percent of

655
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:49,279
Speaker 1: the population, and a number of folks in Guatemala thought

656
00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:51,600
Speaker 1: this was fucked up. Some of those folks were the

657
00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:55,000
Speaker 1: members of the Guatemalan Communist Party who started agitating and

658
00:36:55,160 --> 00:37:00,920
Speaker 1: organizing for reform. Now, not only come Juanists were doing this,

659
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:03,799
Speaker 1: not only communists thought this was wrong. One non communist

660
00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:07,120
Speaker 1: person who realized how fucked up the situation was was

661
00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:10,640
Speaker 1: a guy named Jacobo Arbez. Now, Arbez was again not

662
00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:13,160
Speaker 1: a Communist. He was actually a young, rich kid, the

663
00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:15,640
Speaker 1: son of a Swiss immigrant father in a mixed raised

664
00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:19,120
Speaker 1: Ladina mother. Despite his wealth and privilege, his upbringing was

665
00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:22,200
Speaker 1: rough to in part to his father's suicide. As a

666
00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:25,680
Speaker 1: young man, Arbez joined the Guatemalan Army and became an officer.

667
00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:29,560
Speaker 1: He married the daughter of an El Salvadorian coffee plantation

668
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:32,640
Speaker 1: owner in ninety eight. Now his wife, Maria, had been

669
00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:35,920
Speaker 1: educated at a Catholic woman's college in California. She had

670
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:38,880
Speaker 1: also grown up wealthy, but she was uncomfortable with the

671
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:41,040
Speaker 1: fact that her father had gotten rich off the backs

672
00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:45,160
Speaker 1: of poor workers. Jacobo had been raised by an indigenous

673
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:48,680
Speaker 1: Maya nanny, and his relationship with her made him sensitive

674
00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:51,680
Speaker 1: to the plight of the indigenous people of Guatemala. Over

675
00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:55,160
Speaker 1: the course of many long conversations, Jacobo and Maria decided

676
00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:58,200
Speaker 1: to become reformers and to try to make Guatemala a

677
00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:01,480
Speaker 1: more equitable country. They open to their home to activists,

678
00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:05,120
Speaker 1: including a number of communists. This made them ostracized by

679
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:09,640
Speaker 1: the local aristocracy. Maria later said, but what did we care?

680
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:12,759
Speaker 1: They were parasites like in El Salvador. I wanted to

681
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:15,759
Speaker 1: broaden my horizons. I hadn't come to Guatemala to be

682
00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:20,040
Speaker 1: a socialite or pray, play bridge or golf. So, spurred

683
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:22,880
Speaker 1: on by his wife, Jacobo Arbist entered politics, and in

684
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:25,319
Speaker 1: nineteen forty four he helped to lead a coup that

685
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:29,840
Speaker 1: overthrew Jorge Ubiko. In the years that followed guatemala transition

686
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:33,719
Speaker 1: to a full democracy. In nineteen fifty Yacobo decided to

687
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:36,960
Speaker 1: run for president on a campaign of a grarian reform.

688
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:39,480
Speaker 1: He was elected, and in June of nineteen fifty two

689
00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:42,759
Speaker 1: he succeeded in pushing through a massive land reform bill.

690
00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:45,920
Speaker 1: Under the bill, a huge amount of private land was

691
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:49,680
Speaker 1: handed over to poor peasants, including a significant amount of

692
00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:54,600
Speaker 1: United fruit land. Now, the communists would have considered this

693
00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:56,840
Speaker 1: kind of a fucked up compromise right, he did not

694
00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:58,640
Speaker 1: go nearly as far as a lot of people on

695
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:01,120
Speaker 1: the left wanted. This was actually a pretty moderate bill.

696
00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:03,200
Speaker 1: One of the things he ensured was that the land

697
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:06,320
Speaker 1: he took from United Fruit and other companies was only

698
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:09,560
Speaker 1: land that was not under cultivation. So he basically said,

699
00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:13,040
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna funk with your ongoing financial operations, but

700
00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:15,879
Speaker 1: you own all this land that you're not doing anything with,

701
00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:18,319
Speaker 1: just to own it, and I'm going to give that

702
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:20,719
Speaker 1: back to the people. Like that's what our Bez does.

703
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:23,719
Speaker 1: But of course the elite in Guatemala did not see

704
00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:27,120
Speaker 1: his reform as a compromise necessary to build a healthier society.

705
00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:31,320
Speaker 1: United Fruits started crying foul. Paid propagandists in the United

706
00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:33,719
Speaker 1: States put out a series of red baiting articles with

707
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:38,400
Speaker 1: titles like Red Front Titans grip on Guatemala, United Fruit

708
00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:43,000
Speaker 1: becomes victim of Guatemala's Awakening. Shortly after our Beza's land

709
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:47,400
Speaker 1: reform bill passed, the dictator of not Nicaragua, Anastasio Somazo

710
00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:50,640
Speaker 1: uh so Maza, visited d C and told the CIA

711
00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:53,080
Speaker 1: that if they gave him weapons, he would quote clean

712
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:56,960
Speaker 1: up Guatemala for you. In no time. Stephen Kinser goes

713
00:39:57,000 --> 00:40:00,200
Speaker 1: on to write Alan liked the idea. With j. Royal

714
00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:03,319
Speaker 1: Smith's approval and by some accounts, with indirect encouragement from

715
00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:06,120
Speaker 1: the White House, he established a small team of CIA

716
00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:09,040
Speaker 1: operatives that conceived a plot aimed at setting off a

717
00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:13,000
Speaker 1: coup in Guatemala. On the afternoon of October eight, CIA

718
00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:17,480
Speaker 1: officers presented this plot, called Operation Fortune, to their counterparts

719
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:20,440
Speaker 1: in the State Department. Frank Wissner said that the CIA

720
00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:23,319
Speaker 1: was seeking approval to provide certain hardware to a group

721
00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:27,160
Speaker 1: of people planning violence against a certain government. Another officer

722
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:30,640
Speaker 1: asserted that the operation was necessary because a large American

723
00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:34,359
Speaker 1: company must be protected. State Department officials at the meeting,

724
00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:37,359
Speaker 1: according to one account, hit the ceiling. One of them,

725
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:40,799
Speaker 1: David Bruce, Allen's old OSS comrade, told him that the

726
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:45,680
Speaker 1: State Department disapproves of the entire ordeal. So this is

727
00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:49,480
Speaker 1: not immediately popular people. This is not something that everyone

728
00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:51,880
Speaker 1: like agrees as a good idea. There are folks in

729
00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:54,719
Speaker 1: the State Department who are like, seems kind of sucked

730
00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:59,319
Speaker 1: up to um overthrow the government of this country to

731
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:02,239
Speaker 1: help a fruit company. You know, it's the kind of

732
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:06,000
Speaker 1: thing that you would almost think the voters should have

733
00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:11,520
Speaker 1: a say in because you're you're wanting to you know,

734
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:15,800
Speaker 1: once upon a time, a long long time ago, only

735
00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:19,640
Speaker 1: Congress could declare war, and when we went to war,

736
00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:23,800
Speaker 1: it was like an official thing rather than as became

737
00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:28,200
Speaker 1: the policy later, we just kind of stumbled into conflicts

738
00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:31,600
Speaker 1: where one day you'll just hear that we've launched cruise

739
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:36,920
Speaker 1: missiles at some country, picked your country, and there was

740
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:40,280
Speaker 1: no it was never put to a vote or anything.

741
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:44,160
Speaker 1: It's just something we're doing. I sitting here right now,

742
00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:46,879
Speaker 1: can I tell you how many countries we are doing

743
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:50,960
Speaker 1: drone strikes in? I don't know. That's just we just

744
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:54,240
Speaker 1: take that for granted now that well, somewhere we're probably

745
00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:57,160
Speaker 1: launching a drone strike at a wedding somewhere, but it's probably,

746
00:41:57,320 --> 00:42:00,839
Speaker 1: you know, to take out of terrorists or something. The

747
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:05,680
Speaker 1: beginning of this that we now consider kind of normal, really,

748
00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:10,200
Speaker 1: as far as I know, comes back here where it's like, oh,

749
00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:16,839
Speaker 1: this government is turning red, let's just sneak in under

750
00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:20,759
Speaker 1: the table and just knock it over. Not with an

751
00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:23,400
Speaker 1: official declaration of war. We're not a war with Guatemala,

752
00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:27,080
Speaker 1: like why would we be? But this might drive up

753
00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:33,880
Speaker 1: the prices of bananas or whatever. So it's like, all right, uh,

754
00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:37,520
Speaker 1: and this became standard operating procedure. This is not I

755
00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:39,520
Speaker 1: don't even know what to say about it, because because

756
00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:41,879
Speaker 1: if you're looking at it like propaganda from the time,

757
00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:43,600
Speaker 1: they would have like a picture of a map and

758
00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:46,240
Speaker 1: the map is slowly all turning red as the Russia,

759
00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:49,560
Speaker 1: like the commies, bleed out and take over one country

760
00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:53,239
Speaker 1: after another after another after another. And you heard how

761
00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:57,439
Speaker 1: long it took Robert to explain the complexities of what

762
00:42:57,560 --> 00:43:01,680
Speaker 1: was actually going on there. And that was a very brief,

763
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:09,759
Speaker 1: very overview of an incredibly complicated situation. And when you

764
00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:13,120
Speaker 1: boil that down to oh, this is just stopping the

765
00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:17,719
Speaker 1: evil communists, you have no concept of what's actually going on.

766
00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:19,759
Speaker 1: Like you were, it would be better for you to

767
00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:22,640
Speaker 1: have never heard of the country than to boil it

768
00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:26,320
Speaker 1: down in your mind where it's like, oh, these people

769
00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:29,319
Speaker 1: were soldiers of the Soviet Union and this is just

770
00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:32,520
Speaker 1: another front in our war. Like that is an objectively

771
00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:36,439
Speaker 1: insane way to look at it. It's great that that's

772
00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:41,919
Speaker 1: just how everything worked for decades. Um. Yeah, in part

773
00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:44,319
Speaker 1: because like you know, if they had framed it as like, well,

774
00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:47,680
Speaker 1: these people are taking land that our corporations owned but

775
00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:50,800
Speaker 1: don't use, so that they can live lives of slightly

776
00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:59,200
Speaker 1: less unfathomable desperation. Um that that that doesn't sound as

777
00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:03,959
Speaker 1: good as they're they're trying to destroy christendom um and

778
00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:06,319
Speaker 1: we have to stop them in Guatemala or they will

779
00:44:06,360 --> 00:44:10,640
Speaker 1: be in pow Keepsie, you know, next week, which is

780
00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:12,560
Speaker 1: you know how a lot of it was framed. But

781
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:14,800
Speaker 1: you you don't have to be a crazy person with

782
00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:18,239
Speaker 1: like with like news clippings and red yarn on your

783
00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:21,600
Speaker 1: wall drawing connections to say, wait a second, So the

784
00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:29,040
Speaker 1: law firm that represented that fruit company employed the future

785
00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:33,080
Speaker 1: Secretary of State and and uh or the director's head

786
00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:36,600
Speaker 1: of CIA, Like, it's not. You don't have to dig

787
00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:40,080
Speaker 1: define the connections. It's not a conspiracy theory. It's pretty

788
00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:43,080
Speaker 1: out in the open. It was a company that they

789
00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:46,120
Speaker 1: had done work on behalf of them, and they were

790
00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:49,840
Speaker 1: doing them a favor under the guise of stopping communism. Like,

791
00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:53,440
Speaker 1: it's not, this is not a conspiracy theory. I realized

792
00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:55,160
Speaker 1: that most of the time on the Internet, when people

793
00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:57,640
Speaker 1: bring up the CIA, it's accusing them of things that

794
00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:01,759
Speaker 1: may be improbable or hiding aliens or whatever. You have

795
00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:05,400
Speaker 1: to understand the real things the CIA did. They were

796
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:09,560
Speaker 1: absolutely real. It's you don't need the fantasy. It's yeah,

797
00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:12,960
Speaker 1: you don't, it's there's there's there's enough to fill a

798
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:15,920
Speaker 1: lifetime of work trying to understand the stuff that they

799
00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:22,720
Speaker 1: absolutely did. Um So, as I said, like Alan Dullas

800
00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:25,560
Speaker 1: kind of brings to the State Department this plan to

801
00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:28,239
Speaker 1: a symbole a bunch of CIA operatives and overthrow the

802
00:45:28,239 --> 00:45:30,480
Speaker 1: government of Guatemala, and they get shot down by the

803
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:33,839
Speaker 1: State Department. But that's in early nineteen fifty two. Now,

804
00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:37,120
Speaker 1: in November of that year, the election happens and Dwight D.

805
00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:41,440
Speaker 1: Eisenhower wins. Truman had acted as depending on who you trust,

806
00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:44,360
Speaker 1: kind of a restraining hand on the CIA. He was

807
00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:46,759
Speaker 1: cautious about them. He didn't let them do all the

808
00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:50,040
Speaker 1: things that Alan Dullas wanted to do. Eisenhower had no

809
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:53,360
Speaker 1: desire to restrain the CIA, and of course in nineteen

810
00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:56,960
Speaker 1: fifty three he made Alan Dullis head of the CIA,

811
00:45:57,080 --> 00:46:00,560
Speaker 1: which was not a great call. Now, as a lawyer

812
00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:03,480
Speaker 1: for Sullivan and Cromwell, Alan had been the legal envoy

813
00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:06,600
Speaker 1: of the company to Guatemala. He had actually visited so

814
00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:09,080
Speaker 1: often during his time with the company that he started

815
00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:11,200
Speaker 1: taking his wife on trips with him, and he did

816
00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:15,239
Speaker 1: not like his wife, so that meant something. Eisenhower made

817
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:17,640
Speaker 1: Foster Dulas in the same year United In fifty three

818
00:46:17,680 --> 00:46:20,440
Speaker 1: his secretary of State. Now this was the result of

819
00:46:20,520 --> 00:46:23,560
Speaker 1: years of politicking and ass kissing by Foster, which finally

820
00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:25,920
Speaker 1: paid off now that a Republican was in office again.

821
00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:30,480
Speaker 1: Foster two had his connections in Guatemala Before World War One.

822
00:46:30,560 --> 00:46:33,080
Speaker 1: Foster Dulas had visited the country as a Sullivan and

823
00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:36,680
Speaker 1: Cromwell lawyer. His job had been to monitor labor unrest

824
00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:41,520
Speaker 1: and communist activity in Guatemala. Both brothers lobbied extensively for

825
00:46:41,560 --> 00:46:44,560
Speaker 1: intervention against Our Beez, and they were not alone. United

826
00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:48,520
Speaker 1: Fruit was extremely well connected to the Eisenhower administration. The

827
00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:52,560
Speaker 1: Under Secretary of State, Walter Beatle Smith, was a close

828
00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:54,640
Speaker 1: friend of the president, and he also happened to be

829
00:46:54,680 --> 00:46:57,840
Speaker 1: applying for a high placed position with United Fruit after

830
00:46:57,880 --> 00:46:59,920
Speaker 1: the coup. He was named to the company's board after

831
00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:04,440
Speaker 1: Rectors Henry Cabot Lodge, Eisenhower's un ambassador, had a number

832
00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:08,040
Speaker 1: of family investments in the United Fruit. John Morris Cabot

833
00:47:08,040 --> 00:47:10,319
Speaker 1: in Church, in charge of Latin American affairs of the

834
00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:14,200
Speaker 1: State Department, was the brother of United Fruits former CEO.

835
00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:17,719
Speaker 1: The husband of the President's personal secretary, was the head

836
00:47:17,719 --> 00:47:20,640
Speaker 1: of pr for United Fruits. So this is not just

837
00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:23,560
Speaker 1: the c I a thing right. They are deeply embedded

838
00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:29,080
Speaker 1: with the Eisenhower administration. Now, Eisenhower's administration labeled Guatemala a

839
00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:32,520
Speaker 1: Soviet beachhead in the Hemisphere, even though Arbez again was

840
00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:35,960
Speaker 1: not at all a communist. Secretary Foster Dullas declared that

841
00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:39,200
Speaker 1: he was forcing a communist type reign of terror on

842
00:47:39,239 --> 00:47:42,719
Speaker 1: the country. The US ambassador to Guatemala, working under the

843
00:47:42,719 --> 00:47:46,520
Speaker 1: CIA's direction, tried to bribe Arbez with two million dollars

844
00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:49,600
Speaker 1: to cancel his land reforms are best, said no, so

845
00:47:49,640 --> 00:47:52,720
Speaker 1: the ambassador threatened to have him murdered. When that failed,

846
00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:55,480
Speaker 1: the Dulless brothers decided there was nothing to do but

847
00:47:55,640 --> 00:47:59,680
Speaker 1: overthrow him. They found an angry, disgraced colonel named Carlos

848
00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:02,839
Speaker 1: arma Us who was working as a furniture salesman in Honduras.

849
00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:05,920
Speaker 1: They hired a bunch of mercenaries to be his revolutionary

850
00:48:06,080 --> 00:48:09,480
Speaker 1: army and The CIA provided him with weapons, intelligence, and

851
00:48:09,560 --> 00:48:14,240
Speaker 1: air cover. As he invaded Guatemala, CIA pilots bombed the capital,

852
00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:17,800
Speaker 1: which panicked the population. Dozens of officers in Our Best's

853
00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:20,759
Speaker 1: army were bribed to abandon their president. In June of

854
00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:24,160
Speaker 1: nineteen fifty four, Yacobo decided he could not hold out

855
00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:27,759
Speaker 1: any longer. He fled the presidential palace, sending out one

856
00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:30,839
Speaker 1: last radio address in which he accused the United Fruit

857
00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:34,520
Speaker 1: Company and its allies in quote US ruling circles of

858
00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:38,680
Speaker 1: reigning fire and death upon Guatemala, which they had done.

859
00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:42,799
Speaker 1: Of course, the CIA blocked the transmission from going out.

860
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:44,839
Speaker 1: I'm gonna not gonna let not gonna let that guy

861
00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:47,799
Speaker 1: get a last word in the Arbez families spent the

862
00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:50,279
Speaker 1: rest of their lives fleeing from country to country, never

863
00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:53,279
Speaker 1: able to find comfort or happiness. One of Yourcobo's daughters

864
00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:56,520
Speaker 1: committed suicide, and the former president himself was harried and

865
00:48:56,600 --> 00:49:00,200
Speaker 1: tracked and harassed and threatened by the Sea i A

866
00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:04,080
Speaker 1: until the day he died. Like they didn't just overthrow him.

867
00:49:04,239 --> 00:49:08,160
Speaker 1: They anytime someone said anything nice about him, anytime he

868
00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:10,799
Speaker 1: was on the verge of like rebuilding something like they

869
00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:14,040
Speaker 1: would go into like it was personal. They wanted to

870
00:49:14,120 --> 00:49:16,040
Speaker 1: ruin this man's life. They were trying to drive him

871
00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:19,520
Speaker 1: to suicide. To be honest, Well, it's so strange that

872
00:49:20,160 --> 00:49:23,439
Speaker 1: he wasn't able to find a home in Moscow since

873
00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:27,680
Speaker 1: he was clearly an agent of He did live there

874
00:49:27,719 --> 00:49:29,600
Speaker 1: for a while because they were willing to take him in,

875
00:49:29,640 --> 00:49:32,319
Speaker 1: but they didn't like him because he wasn't a Communist

876
00:49:32,360 --> 00:49:37,360
Speaker 1: and he didn't like living there, so he left UM.

877
00:49:37,400 --> 00:49:40,120
Speaker 1: I think he wound up in um somewhere in Latin America.

878
00:49:40,160 --> 00:49:42,840
Speaker 1: Eventually might have been Cuba. But like he he didn't

879
00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:45,320
Speaker 1: have a lot of options because the US would threaten

880
00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:48,520
Speaker 1: any country that offered to take him in UM, So

881
00:49:48,560 --> 00:49:50,919
Speaker 1: the only options he had was the Soviet block, which

882
00:49:50,960 --> 00:49:53,200
Speaker 1: then fed into US. Probably. Look, he went running to

883
00:49:53,280 --> 00:49:57,719
Speaker 1: Russia because he loves communism. Well, you threatened Mexico if

884
00:49:57,719 --> 00:49:59,840
Speaker 1: they let him live there, Like what it was? He

885
00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:02,400
Speaker 1: where is he supposed to go while he was supposed

886
00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:06,560
Speaker 1: to kill himself? Yep, good ship. So Alan Dullas considered

887
00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:10,280
Speaker 1: the overthrow of Guatemala's democratically elected leader to be among

888
00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:13,800
Speaker 1: his greatest accomplishments. Now, the operation had been code named

889
00:50:13,840 --> 00:50:17,400
Speaker 1: p B success and David Talbot writes well about the

890
00:50:17,400 --> 00:50:21,040
Speaker 1: celebration that followed in d C quote. When they filed

891
00:50:21,040 --> 00:50:23,719
Speaker 1: into the East Wing Theater for their Guatemala slide show,

892
00:50:23,800 --> 00:50:26,160
Speaker 1: the PB success team was at the height of its glory.

893
00:50:26,480 --> 00:50:29,680
Speaker 1: The room was filled with the administration's top dignitaries, including

894
00:50:29,680 --> 00:50:34,120
Speaker 1: the President himself, his cabinet, and the Vice President. Afterward Eisenhower. Ever,

895
00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:36,720
Speaker 1: the soldier asked Dullas how many men he had lost,

896
00:50:37,120 --> 00:50:40,799
Speaker 1: just one, Dullas told him. Incredible, exclaimed the President. But

897
00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:44,080
Speaker 1: the real body count and Guatemala started after the invasion,

898
00:50:44,239 --> 00:50:47,239
Speaker 1: when the CIA backed regime of Castile Armas began to

899
00:50:47,400 --> 00:50:51,840
Speaker 1: clean the nation of political undesirables, labor organizers, and peasants

900
00:50:51,880 --> 00:50:55,440
Speaker 1: who had too eagerly embraced Arbez's land reforms. It was

901
00:50:55,480 --> 00:50:58,160
Speaker 1: the beginning of a blood soaked era that would transform

902
00:50:58,200 --> 00:51:02,040
Speaker 1: Guatemala into one of the twentieth injuries most infamous killing fields.

903
00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:05,400
Speaker 1: The stainless Coup, as some of its CIA engineers like

904
00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:07,759
Speaker 1: to call it, would actually result in a type of

905
00:51:07,800 --> 00:51:12,640
Speaker 1: gore including assassinations, rampant torture and executions, death squad mayhem,

906
00:51:12,680 --> 00:51:15,680
Speaker 1: and the massacres of entire villages. By the time that

907
00:51:15,719 --> 00:51:18,239
Speaker 1: the blood letting had ran its course four decades later,

908
00:51:18,520 --> 00:51:21,080
Speaker 1: over two hundred and fifty thousand people had been killed

909
00:51:21,080 --> 00:51:24,080
Speaker 1: in a nation whose total population was less than four

910
00:51:24,120 --> 00:51:27,279
Speaker 1: million when the reign of terror began. That's like five

911
00:51:27,320 --> 00:51:32,279
Speaker 1: percent of the population thereabouts. So that's good one of

912
00:51:32,320 --> 00:51:34,839
Speaker 1: the two. Now, when most people talk about the early

913
00:51:34,880 --> 00:51:38,040
Speaker 1: days of CIA coup's, they'll bring up Guatemala and Iran.

914
00:51:38,600 --> 00:51:40,960
Speaker 1: Both stories have a number of similarities. For one thing,

915
00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:44,960
Speaker 1: Alan Dulas also had business interests in Iran. In nine,

916
00:51:45,040 --> 00:51:48,200
Speaker 1: working for Sullivan and Cromwell, Dullas had flown to Tehran

917
00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:52,160
Speaker 1: and negotiated a lucrative oil deal with the Shaw. Under

918
00:51:52,200 --> 00:51:54,919
Speaker 1: the deal, a consortium of U S engineering firms would

919
00:51:54,920 --> 00:51:57,680
Speaker 1: be paid six hundred and fifty million dollars to modernize

920
00:51:57,680 --> 00:52:00,280
Speaker 1: the nation. It was at the time the largest foreign

921
00:52:00,320 --> 00:52:03,840
Speaker 1: development project in US history. Now the Shaw and Dullus

922
00:52:03,920 --> 00:52:06,880
Speaker 1: kept in contact. During the same time, the royal ruler

923
00:52:06,920 --> 00:52:11,040
Speaker 1: of Iran was not popular. Developing left wing and communist

924
00:52:11,040 --> 00:52:14,799
Speaker 1: movements were agitating for his overthrow, which deeply worried both

925
00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:17,239
Speaker 1: the British and the Americans, who had invested heavily in

926
00:52:17,280 --> 00:52:21,360
Speaker 1: Iran's oil industry. In at a party hosted by Alan

927
00:52:21,400 --> 00:52:24,279
Speaker 1: Dullas for the Council of Foreign Relations, the Shah of

928
00:52:24,320 --> 00:52:27,640
Speaker 1: Iran promised, my government and people are eager to welcome

929
00:52:27,680 --> 00:52:31,719
Speaker 1: American capital to give it all possible safeguards. He promised

930
00:52:31,920 --> 00:52:34,680
Speaker 1: not to nationalize the oil industry, which is something that

931
00:52:34,719 --> 00:52:37,160
Speaker 1: the communists wanted and you can draw it's similar to

932
00:52:37,200 --> 00:52:40,840
Speaker 1: like what Arbez was doing in Guatemala right there. Foreign

933
00:52:40,880 --> 00:52:45,239
Speaker 1: powers have basically, through working with corrupt leaders they put

934
00:52:45,239 --> 00:52:50,520
Speaker 1: in power, bought access, exclusive access to our resources for

935
00:52:50,880 --> 00:52:54,040
Speaker 1: way too cheap. We want those things because this is

936
00:52:54,080 --> 00:52:56,520
Speaker 1: our country. Um So that's kind of what the left

937
00:52:56,560 --> 00:52:58,720
Speaker 1: is agitating for in Iran. We don't want the British

938
00:52:58,719 --> 00:53:00,640
Speaker 1: to profit off our oil industr red that should be

939
00:53:00,640 --> 00:53:03,560
Speaker 1: our money. It's our fucking oil. And obviously the Shah

940
00:53:03,600 --> 00:53:06,440
Speaker 1: promises to his friends in the CIA and in the

941
00:53:06,440 --> 00:53:09,839
Speaker 1: Council Foreign Relations that will never happen. But of course

942
00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:13,640
Speaker 1: the show was unpopular, not surprising. In nineteen fifty one,

943
00:53:13,680 --> 00:53:16,839
Speaker 1: he was forced to appoint a reformer, Mohammed Massada, as

944
00:53:16,920 --> 00:53:20,560
Speaker 1: Prime minister after the Iranian parliament nominated Massada by a

945
00:53:20,640 --> 00:53:23,600
Speaker 1: vote of seventy nine to twelve. So this is a

946
00:53:23,680 --> 00:53:27,920
Speaker 1: popular guy. Like, that's not a fucking close vote. Now,

947
00:53:28,280 --> 00:53:31,319
Speaker 1: Massada had founded a political party called the National Front,

948
00:53:31,360 --> 00:53:33,920
Speaker 1: which was a pro democracy party that was kind of

949
00:53:34,239 --> 00:53:37,680
Speaker 1: center left. Again like Arbez, this guy's kind of center

950
00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:40,600
Speaker 1: left as opposed to being a radical. The National well,

951
00:53:40,640 --> 00:53:42,200
Speaker 1: they were, I mean, the National Front was kind of

952
00:53:42,280 --> 00:53:44,719
Speaker 1: radical for Iran at the time, but not to the

953
00:53:44,760 --> 00:53:47,640
Speaker 1: extent that the Communists were. The National Front again, they

954
00:53:47,680 --> 00:53:50,600
Speaker 1: were not communists. They wanted a democratic system, They were

955
00:53:50,640 --> 00:53:52,880
Speaker 1: not state communist. They wanted a democratic system, and they

956
00:53:52,920 --> 00:53:57,879
Speaker 1: agitated in the streets for Iranian independence from foreign economic domination. Now,

957
00:53:58,000 --> 00:54:00,600
Speaker 1: right around this time there was also a Shia religious

958
00:54:00,600 --> 00:54:04,520
Speaker 1: fundamentalist party that had carried out a wave of assassinations. Um,

959
00:54:04,600 --> 00:54:07,520
Speaker 1: and they were, you know, they were they also all

960
00:54:07,560 --> 00:54:10,120
Speaker 1: of these kind of groups, the Shia, the Communists, and

961
00:54:10,160 --> 00:54:14,080
Speaker 1: the National Front are anti you know, the foreign colonizers

962
00:54:14,160 --> 00:54:19,200
Speaker 1: and broadly speaking anti the Shah Um but for different reasons, um.

963
00:54:19,280 --> 00:54:21,920
Speaker 1: And all of this kind of unrest means that Iran

964
00:54:22,040 --> 00:54:24,840
Speaker 1: is very unstable in this period, and the main reason

965
00:54:24,840 --> 00:54:27,640
Speaker 1: why the Shah appoints Massada prime minister outside of the

966
00:54:27,719 --> 00:54:30,440
Speaker 1: fact that Parliament told him to was because he was

967
00:54:30,480 --> 00:54:32,719
Speaker 1: kind of afraid that not doing so would lead to

968
00:54:32,760 --> 00:54:37,880
Speaker 1: a revolution. Massada immediately launched a series of sweeping social reforms,

969
00:54:38,120 --> 00:54:42,400
Speaker 1: unemployment compensation, sick benefits for workers, an end to forced

970
00:54:42,480 --> 00:54:45,040
Speaker 1: labor for peasants, and a land reform bill bill that

971
00:54:45,120 --> 00:54:49,240
Speaker 1: forced landlords to give twenty percent of their revenues to tenants. Basically,

972
00:54:49,239 --> 00:54:51,279
Speaker 1: they had to put a chunk of the revenues they

973
00:54:51,320 --> 00:54:53,640
Speaker 1: made his landlords into like public works projects, so it

974
00:54:53,640 --> 00:54:56,759
Speaker 1: would go back to the people. In nineteen fifty two,

975
00:54:56,840 --> 00:55:01,440
Speaker 1: Massada nationalized the Anglo Iranian Oil Company, a British business

976
00:55:01,440 --> 00:55:03,320
Speaker 1: that had inked to deal with the shot to control

977
00:55:03,360 --> 00:55:08,400
Speaker 1: Iranian oil until nineteen The British were furious, but Massada

978
00:55:08,520 --> 00:55:12,360
Speaker 1: argued that Iranians were rightful owners of their oil. The

979
00:55:12,400 --> 00:55:16,960
Speaker 1: British responded by instituting an international oil blockade of Iran.

980
00:55:17,239 --> 00:55:20,160
Speaker 1: They actually sent in ships to blockade the Persian Gulf,

981
00:55:20,160 --> 00:55:23,239
Speaker 1: so Iran can't sell the oil that is Iran's. But

982
00:55:23,400 --> 00:55:25,279
Speaker 1: you know again, they would argue that, well, we bought

983
00:55:25,360 --> 00:55:28,560
Speaker 1: access to it for until nineteen ninety three, so they

984
00:55:28,560 --> 00:55:30,840
Speaker 1: have no right to take it from us um. I

985
00:55:30,880 --> 00:55:34,560
Speaker 1: guess it depends on how much you like the British. Uh.

986
00:55:34,600 --> 00:55:38,160
Speaker 1: This all created Iran's economy, which led to massive domestic unrest,

987
00:55:38,200 --> 00:55:42,120
Speaker 1: but Massada still remained broadly popular. The British appealed to

988
00:55:42,160 --> 00:55:44,520
Speaker 1: the Americans for help, or, depending on who you believe,

989
00:55:44,760 --> 00:55:47,759
Speaker 1: the Eisenhower administration was worried that all the unrest would

990
00:55:47,760 --> 00:55:50,680
Speaker 1: embolden the Communists and lead them and lead to a

991
00:55:50,719 --> 00:55:54,000
Speaker 1: revolution that would send their oil over to the Soviets.

992
00:55:54,760 --> 00:55:57,400
Speaker 1: So the CIA had been active in Iran since nineteen

993
00:55:57,480 --> 00:55:59,960
Speaker 1: forty eight. They were actually led there by Teddy Roosevelt

994
00:56:00,080 --> 00:56:02,840
Speaker 1: Son Kermit. So a big part of this story is

995
00:56:02,880 --> 00:56:06,960
Speaker 1: a dude named Kermit, which I can't over emphasize. Now,

996
00:56:07,880 --> 00:56:10,080
Speaker 1: the main thing the CIA had been doing in Iran

997
00:56:10,280 --> 00:56:13,759
Speaker 1: was fighting the Two dep Party, which was Iran's communist party,

998
00:56:13,840 --> 00:56:16,080
Speaker 1: and they had mostly been focused on setting up what

999
00:56:16,080 --> 00:56:18,880
Speaker 1: they called a stay behind network. This is a group

1000
00:56:19,000 --> 00:56:22,160
Speaker 1: of militants who could act as an insurgency if the

1001
00:56:22,200 --> 00:56:25,680
Speaker 1: Communists win power. The CIA was doing this all over

1002
00:56:25,680 --> 00:56:27,560
Speaker 1: the place. They did this in Europe, like they were

1003
00:56:27,560 --> 00:56:30,279
Speaker 1: setting up stay behind networks in Italy and stuff. There's

1004
00:56:30,280 --> 00:56:33,239
Speaker 1: this whole thing called Operation Gladioli that will cover at

1005
00:56:33,280 --> 00:56:35,520
Speaker 1: some point in a separate episode. But like, this is

1006
00:56:35,520 --> 00:56:37,320
Speaker 1: the thing the CIA is doing all over the damn

1007
00:56:37,320 --> 00:56:40,640
Speaker 1: world anywhere there's a single leftist trying to run for

1008
00:56:40,680 --> 00:56:44,480
Speaker 1: political office, They're setting up networks of you know, assassins

1009
00:56:44,480 --> 00:56:48,120
Speaker 1: and terrorists in case those people get too much power. Now,

1010
00:56:48,239 --> 00:56:51,600
Speaker 1: Britain was expelled entirely from Iran in nineteen fifty two.

1011
00:56:51,680 --> 00:56:53,640
Speaker 1: They tried to convince the US to overthrow the government

1012
00:56:53,640 --> 00:56:57,359
Speaker 1: by arguing that, like Mossada's successment, that the Communists were

1013
00:56:57,360 --> 00:57:01,960
Speaker 1: about to take over. Eisenhower was actually hesitant to believe them, um,

1014
00:57:02,000 --> 00:57:04,440
Speaker 1: but the dullest brothers were, of course very bullish on

1015
00:57:04,480 --> 00:57:07,400
Speaker 1: the idea. Cooler heads pointed out that none of the

1016
00:57:07,440 --> 00:57:10,960
Speaker 1: conservative politicians in Iran had the popularity to replace Massada,

1017
00:57:11,080 --> 00:57:13,800
Speaker 1: and so if he was forced out, the only popular

1018
00:57:13,840 --> 00:57:17,360
Speaker 1: alternatives would be Shea hardliners, which weren't any friendlier to

1019
00:57:17,400 --> 00:57:20,360
Speaker 1: the West. So at first the British were rebuffed. You know,

1020
00:57:20,440 --> 00:57:23,080
Speaker 1: the Eisenhower administration comes up with some very good reasons

1021
00:57:23,080 --> 00:57:25,880
Speaker 1: why they don't think overthrowing Massada is going to be

1022
00:57:25,920 --> 00:57:30,600
Speaker 1: a good idea. Eisenhower suggested stabilizing the Massada government with

1023
00:57:30,640 --> 00:57:33,280
Speaker 1: a one million dollar loan to help them through the

1024
00:57:33,280 --> 00:57:37,080
Speaker 1: blockade period. It was basically like, well, okay, maybe they

1025
00:57:37,080 --> 00:57:39,800
Speaker 1: have the right to to not let the English have

1026
00:57:39,880 --> 00:57:42,480
Speaker 1: their oil. Let's give them cash so that their society

1027
00:57:42,520 --> 00:57:45,680
Speaker 1: doesn't collapse in the communists can't take power, which seems

1028
00:57:45,720 --> 00:57:49,960
Speaker 1: like a pretty good solution to me, actually, um, but

1029
00:57:50,040 --> 00:57:51,560
Speaker 1: of course this is not what they do. He was

1030
00:57:51,600 --> 00:57:54,400
Speaker 1: actually convinced, in part by the Dullest brothers not to

1031
00:57:54,480 --> 00:57:57,520
Speaker 1: do this, and so instead he tried fruitlessly to negotiate

1032
00:57:57,600 --> 00:58:00,760
Speaker 1: with Massada to allow the British to take back control

1033
00:58:00,800 --> 00:58:04,680
Speaker 1: of the oil company he nationalized. Masada refused, saying that

1034
00:58:04,720 --> 00:58:07,400
Speaker 1: the history of his nation's leadership was filled with corrupt

1035
00:58:07,440 --> 00:58:10,200
Speaker 1: cowards who had bowed to Western money, and he wasn't

1036
00:58:10,240 --> 00:58:13,480
Speaker 1: going to add to that legacy. In March of nineteen

1037
00:58:13,480 --> 00:58:17,160
Speaker 1: fifty three, Alan Dulas attended a National Security Council meeting

1038
00:58:17,400 --> 00:58:20,160
Speaker 1: with seven pages of talking points in his hand, aimed

1039
00:58:20,160 --> 00:58:23,680
Speaker 1: at convincing the rest of the Eisenhower administration to overthrow

1040
00:58:23,800 --> 00:58:28,560
Speaker 1: Massada from the devil's chessboard. Quote Iran was confronted with

1041
00:58:28,720 --> 00:58:32,400
Speaker 1: a maturing revolutionary set up, Dulus warned, and if the

1042
00:58:32,440 --> 00:58:36,080
Speaker 1: country fell into communist hands, sixtent of the Free world's

1043
00:58:36,120 --> 00:58:39,400
Speaker 1: oil would be controlled by Moscow. Oil and gasoline would

1044
00:58:39,440 --> 00:58:42,440
Speaker 1: have to be rationed at home, and US military operations

1045
00:58:42,440 --> 00:58:45,440
Speaker 1: would have to be curtailed. In truth, the global crisis

1046
00:58:45,440 --> 00:58:47,600
Speaker 1: over Iran was not a Cold War conflict, but a

1047
00:58:47,640 --> 00:58:52,240
Speaker 1: struggle quote between imperialism and nationalism, between first and third worlds,

1048
00:58:52,400 --> 00:58:56,240
Speaker 1: between North and South, between developed industrial economies and underdeveloped

1049
00:58:56,280 --> 00:59:00,480
Speaker 1: countries dependent on exporting raw materials. Dullus made sought out

1050
00:59:00,520 --> 00:59:02,840
Speaker 1: to be a stooge of the communists, but he was

1051
00:59:02,920 --> 00:59:07,760
Speaker 1: far from it. So the the Iranian communists. Again, Massada

1052
00:59:07,800 --> 00:59:10,240
Speaker 1: is kind of like Arbez. He's not a communist, and

1053
00:59:10,280 --> 00:59:13,760
Speaker 1: the communists, you know, respect some of the things he's doing,

1054
00:59:13,800 --> 00:59:16,560
Speaker 1: but they don't like him all that much. Um. He

1055
00:59:16,640 --> 00:59:20,080
Speaker 1: was not friendly to Moscow. And the Soviets actually didn't

1056
00:59:20,080 --> 00:59:22,919
Speaker 1: want to get involved in Iran because they're not dumb.

1057
00:59:22,960 --> 00:59:26,240
Speaker 1: They understand sixty percent of the free world, whatever you

1058
00:59:26,320 --> 00:59:30,120
Speaker 1: about six of the US oil supply, that's a thing

1059
00:59:30,200 --> 00:59:32,680
Speaker 1: will go to war over like, That's not a thing

1060
00:59:33,080 --> 00:59:35,520
Speaker 1: Russia wanted to funk with. In this period of time,

1061
00:59:35,800 --> 00:59:38,520
Speaker 1: but of course nobody in the Eisenhower administration was listening

1062
00:59:38,600 --> 00:59:41,840
Speaker 1: to reason. Once the Dullis brothers got their propaganda machine chearning.

1063
00:59:42,400 --> 00:59:45,360
Speaker 1: Over the course of several weeks, Alan and Foster succeeded

1064
00:59:45,400 --> 00:59:48,480
Speaker 1: in convincing Eisenhower that Iran was the next great battle

1065
00:59:48,480 --> 00:59:51,240
Speaker 1: of the Cold War, and that if he didn't move quickly,

1066
00:59:51,440 --> 00:59:54,560
Speaker 1: it would become North Korea, but with the world's largest

1067
00:59:54,560 --> 00:59:58,440
Speaker 1: oil reserves. In June of nineteen fifty three, Allan Dulas

1068
00:59:58,440 --> 01:00:01,040
Speaker 1: presented the CIA's plan to his brother and a handful

1069
01:00:01,040 --> 01:00:04,240
Speaker 1: of other key policymakers. The actual coup plot had been

1070
01:00:04,320 --> 01:00:07,640
Speaker 1: drawn up by Kermit Roosevelt, who had already been arming

1071
01:00:07,640 --> 01:00:10,840
Speaker 1: and organizing an anti communist resistance in the country. The

1072
01:00:10,920 --> 01:00:14,440
Speaker 1: plot started with the assassination of numerous Iranian military and

1073
01:00:14,480 --> 01:00:18,040
Speaker 1: political leaders loyal to Massada. One general was found ripped

1074
01:00:18,040 --> 01:00:21,040
Speaker 1: apart by a roadside outside of Tehran. Others had their

1075
01:00:21,080 --> 01:00:24,840
Speaker 1: throat slit. Now, while all this was going down, unrest

1076
01:00:24,920 --> 01:00:27,480
Speaker 1: was growing in Iran. The Shah was actually forced to

1077
01:00:27,480 --> 01:00:30,040
Speaker 1: flee the country because a large band of communists and

1078
01:00:30,040 --> 01:00:34,080
Speaker 1: democratic militants were roaming the streets tearing down statues of him.

1079
01:00:34,080 --> 01:00:38,040
Speaker 1: And destroying royal property. These militants were loyal to Massada,

1080
01:00:38,120 --> 01:00:39,840
Speaker 1: while some of them were some of them were communists.

1081
01:00:39,840 --> 01:00:41,840
Speaker 1: It was both groups out in the street, and both

1082
01:00:41,880 --> 01:00:44,240
Speaker 1: broadly on the same page as far as this goes.

1083
01:00:44,640 --> 01:00:47,520
Speaker 1: But on August eighteenth, the U. S. Ambassador sat down

1084
01:00:47,520 --> 01:00:51,240
Speaker 1: with the Prime Minister and claimed falsely that Massada's supporters

1085
01:00:51,240 --> 01:00:54,680
Speaker 1: had threatened the U. S. Embassy David Talbot writes quote.

1086
01:00:55,360 --> 01:00:58,160
Speaker 1: He warned that if the Prime Minister did not restore order,

1087
01:00:58,320 --> 01:01:01,200
Speaker 1: the United States would have to avoid aculate all Americans

1088
01:01:01,240 --> 01:01:05,280
Speaker 1: and withdraw recognition of Masada's government. The gambit worked. Masada

1089
01:01:05,400 --> 01:01:08,520
Speaker 1: lost his nerve, according to Henderson, and immediately ordered his

1090
01:01:08,560 --> 01:01:11,160
Speaker 1: police chief to clear the streets. It was the U. S.

1091
01:01:11,200 --> 01:01:15,560
Speaker 1: Diplomat later observed the old man's feeble mistake. With masada

1092
01:01:15,600 --> 01:01:18,760
Speaker 1: supporters off the streets, the CIA's hired thugs were free

1093
01:01:18,800 --> 01:01:21,840
Speaker 1: to take their place, backed by rebellious elements of the military.

1094
01:01:22,120 --> 01:01:24,640
Speaker 1: On the morning of August nineteenth, as Mosada huddled in

1095
01:01:24,720 --> 01:01:27,880
Speaker 1: his home with his advisers, tanks driven by pro Shaw

1096
01:01:28,000 --> 01:01:31,480
Speaker 1: military officers, and street gangs whose pockets were literally stuffed

1097
01:01:31,480 --> 01:01:35,840
Speaker 1: with CIA cash converged on the Prime Minister's residence Mosada

1098
01:01:35,960 --> 01:01:38,960
Speaker 1: was of course overthrown and imprisoned. The Shah, who had

1099
01:01:38,960 --> 01:01:41,760
Speaker 1: been shopping in France with his wife, was brought back

1100
01:01:41,760 --> 01:01:44,800
Speaker 1: to govern the country. He was not popular, and in

1101
01:01:44,880 --> 01:01:46,960
Speaker 1: order to keep him in power, the CIA had to

1102
01:01:46,960 --> 01:01:50,720
Speaker 1: go to war with the Iranian left wing, massacring communists

1103
01:01:50,760 --> 01:01:54,600
Speaker 1: and pro democracy activists wherever they found them. The chief

1104
01:01:54,640 --> 01:01:57,480
Speaker 1: focus of their violence was the TUTA, the communist party,

1105
01:01:57,960 --> 01:02:01,520
Speaker 1: and with CIA's helped, the Shah's West trained security forces

1106
01:02:01,560 --> 01:02:04,720
Speaker 1: tracked down four thousand two de party members between nineteen

1107
01:02:04,760 --> 01:02:08,000
Speaker 1: fifty three and nineteen fifty seven. These guys were basically

1108
01:02:08,000 --> 01:02:10,240
Speaker 1: all tortured. They were whipped, they were beaten. Some of

1109
01:02:10,280 --> 01:02:12,480
Speaker 1: them had chairs smashed on their heads, they had their

1110
01:02:12,520 --> 01:02:15,840
Speaker 1: fingers broken. A lot of them were subjected to something

1111
01:02:15,880 --> 01:02:18,360
Speaker 1: called capani, which is a torture method where you're hung

1112
01:02:18,400 --> 01:02:21,800
Speaker 1: by hooks. At least eleven people diet under torture during

1113
01:02:21,800 --> 01:02:25,520
Speaker 1: this period, mostly from brain hemorrhages. Dozens more were executed

1114
01:02:26,160 --> 01:02:28,640
Speaker 1: um and of course, with the Shaw back in power,

1115
01:02:28,680 --> 01:02:33,400
Speaker 1: Iran's oil was d nationalized, but under the new arrangement

1116
01:02:33,480 --> 01:02:37,120
Speaker 1: of Iran's oil profits went to US Oil producers in

1117
01:02:37,240 --> 01:02:39,720
Speaker 1: d C. The overthrow of Massada was hailed as a

1118
01:02:39,720 --> 01:02:42,920
Speaker 1: great success, as had you know, was the later overthrow

1119
01:02:42,960 --> 01:02:45,360
Speaker 1: of our bez An. Internal CIA report on the coup

1120
01:02:45,440 --> 01:02:48,240
Speaker 1: described the party they held after the coup as a

1121
01:02:48,360 --> 01:02:50,920
Speaker 1: day that should never have ended, for it carried with

1122
01:02:51,000 --> 01:02:54,040
Speaker 1: it such a sense of excitement, of satisfaction, and of

1123
01:02:54,120 --> 01:02:57,320
Speaker 1: jubilation that it is doubtful whether any other can come

1124
01:02:57,440 --> 01:02:59,800
Speaker 1: up to it. This did sound. It was a good time.

1125
01:03:00,160 --> 01:03:03,000
Speaker 1: Everybody's having a good one. You know what else will

1126
01:03:03,000 --> 01:03:05,840
Speaker 1: overthrow the government of Iran in order to gain access

1127
01:03:05,880 --> 01:03:11,160
Speaker 1: to its vast oil reserves. I don't know about that products,

1128
01:03:11,200 --> 01:03:14,040
Speaker 1: and I mean probably at least one of them, right,

1129
01:03:14,280 --> 01:03:18,480
Speaker 1: I mean, statistically speaking, statistically speaking, one of our sponsors

1130
01:03:18,480 --> 01:03:22,000
Speaker 1: would happily overthrow the Iranian government. So here's some ads.

1131
01:03:27,600 --> 01:03:31,840
Speaker 1: We're back. So the shop was of course eventually overthrown

1132
01:03:31,880 --> 01:03:34,880
Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy nine, and part of why the current

1133
01:03:34,920 --> 01:03:38,160
Speaker 1: government that exists in Iran was able to take power this,

1134
01:03:38,160 --> 01:03:42,440
Speaker 1: this hardline Shia fundamentalist regime, was because the communists and

1135
01:03:42,600 --> 01:03:46,560
Speaker 1: left wing movements in Iran had been utterly annihilated, right Like,

1136
01:03:46,640 --> 01:03:49,280
Speaker 1: That's a big part of why the Ayatolas are able

1137
01:03:49,360 --> 01:03:52,680
Speaker 1: to take power is that there's no other anti government

1138
01:03:52,920 --> 01:03:55,680
Speaker 1: organized anti government forces in Iran because they've been massacred

1139
01:03:55,720 --> 01:03:58,960
Speaker 1: by the CIA, whereas the Shia fundamentalists had kind of

1140
01:03:58,960 --> 01:04:01,960
Speaker 1: been allowed to grow. Can I jump in here just

1141
01:04:02,000 --> 01:04:04,840
Speaker 1: a moment. It's I feel like for a lot of

1142
01:04:04,840 --> 01:04:07,360
Speaker 1: the listeners there has to has to feel like whiplash

1143
01:04:07,400 --> 01:04:10,400
Speaker 1: at this point, because it wasn't that long ago. In

1144
01:04:10,440 --> 01:04:13,880
Speaker 1: this series, we were describing an American government that was

1145
01:04:14,880 --> 01:04:17,160
Speaker 1: did not want to get involved in World War One

1146
01:04:17,440 --> 01:04:21,160
Speaker 1: at all, and really hesitated to get involved in World

1147
01:04:21,200 --> 01:04:24,880
Speaker 1: War Two because like, oh, well, that's that's Europe's mess.

1148
01:04:24,880 --> 01:04:28,840
Speaker 1: Like what business do we have deciding whether or not

1149
01:04:29,080 --> 01:04:32,880
Speaker 1: Hitler owns France or what It's like, you know, that's

1150
01:04:32,920 --> 01:04:35,320
Speaker 1: none of our business. Like there was a sizeable faction

1151
01:04:35,440 --> 01:04:41,600
Speaker 1: of conservatives saying, small government, keep you mind our own business.

1152
01:04:41,640 --> 01:04:44,240
Speaker 1: That's what small government is. Small government is not you

1153
01:04:44,320 --> 01:04:47,120
Speaker 1: build a military that has to patrol the entire globe

1154
01:04:47,720 --> 01:04:52,240
Speaker 1: and to go from that a decade later or so too.

1155
01:04:53,040 --> 01:04:57,680
Speaker 1: Looking at the mess you described in Iran, the tangled

1156
01:04:58,120 --> 01:05:02,320
Speaker 1: mess of factions and things that get into oil rights

1157
01:05:02,440 --> 01:05:06,520
Speaker 1: and all of this and deciding oh no, that's we've

1158
01:05:06,560 --> 01:05:09,200
Speaker 1: got to be a part of that, and having it

1159
01:05:09,560 --> 01:05:13,920
Speaker 1: spin out of control, and exactly the way the isolationists

1160
01:05:13,960 --> 01:05:18,320
Speaker 1: would have warned you about that you cannot control what

1161
01:05:18,520 --> 01:05:22,240
Speaker 1: happens after that. This is not a video game. You're

1162
01:05:22,280 --> 01:05:25,400
Speaker 1: not playing at Risk or whatever where you can just

1163
01:05:25,720 --> 01:05:27,920
Speaker 1: flip a switch and decide this country is not going

1164
01:05:28,000 --> 01:05:31,280
Speaker 1: to be communist. You don't know what's going to happen

1165
01:05:31,320 --> 01:05:35,280
Speaker 1: after that. Just as you know, we celebrated when the

1166
01:05:35,320 --> 01:05:40,560
Speaker 1: Soviets lost in Afghanistan, and then not that many what

1167
01:05:40,720 --> 01:05:45,400
Speaker 1: fifteen years later, you know, the bullback from that arrives

1168
01:05:45,440 --> 01:05:49,240
Speaker 1: on our shores. Like you can't control what's going to happen.

1169
01:05:49,760 --> 01:05:53,959
Speaker 1: So everything the isolationists have been saying plays out here

1170
01:05:54,160 --> 01:05:57,920
Speaker 1: because you look at like how this direct directly led

1171
01:05:57,960 --> 01:06:01,040
Speaker 1: to the rise of radical Islam and that region. And

1172
01:06:01,120 --> 01:06:04,360
Speaker 1: it's very frustrating to me that the you will hear

1173
01:06:04,440 --> 01:06:08,120
Speaker 1: people say today, well, we shouldn't be in the Middle East.

1174
01:06:08,120 --> 01:06:10,160
Speaker 1: Those people have been fighting with each other for thousands

1175
01:06:10,200 --> 01:06:15,840
Speaker 1: of years. It's like, no, they haven't. These were specific

1176
01:06:15,920 --> 01:06:19,280
Speaker 1: decisions that were made by people in Washington who had

1177
01:06:19,400 --> 01:06:23,320
Speaker 1: not been elected. These are people who have been appointed

1178
01:06:23,360 --> 01:06:27,040
Speaker 1: to their positions because they were born into the right

1179
01:06:27,120 --> 01:06:31,360
Speaker 1: family and worked for the right law firm. And the

1180
01:06:31,400 --> 01:06:35,080
Speaker 1: reason the geopolitical map looks the way it does in

1181
01:06:36,160 --> 01:06:39,800
Speaker 1: one is because of the decisions that the row of

1182
01:06:39,920 --> 01:06:45,320
Speaker 1: dominoes they started falling over back then. Yeah, and then

1183
01:06:45,320 --> 01:06:47,680
Speaker 1: it's like it always does piss me off when people

1184
01:06:47,680 --> 01:06:49,720
Speaker 1: talk about like, well it's always been a mess over there.

1185
01:06:50,000 --> 01:06:53,400
Speaker 1: Number one, For a long time, they were the dominant

1186
01:06:53,520 --> 01:06:57,840
Speaker 1: power in the Western world. Um. And for another thing,

1187
01:06:57,920 --> 01:06:59,920
Speaker 1: like a lot of these countries didn't exist, Like live

1188
01:07:00,080 --> 01:07:03,280
Speaker 1: You wasn't a country until it was made a country

1189
01:07:03,320 --> 01:07:06,040
Speaker 1: by France and England, Like they just decided, oh, that

1190
01:07:06,080 --> 01:07:08,120
Speaker 1: looks like a good countrys they were carving up ship

1191
01:07:08,240 --> 01:07:10,840
Speaker 1: and like yeah, it's much more I think direct with ship,

1192
01:07:10,920 --> 01:07:13,680
Speaker 1: like Iran, where it's like, well, no, they had a government.

1193
01:07:14,120 --> 01:07:18,240
Speaker 1: They had a pretty reasonable political movement that was doing

1194
01:07:18,360 --> 01:07:21,240
Speaker 1: reasonable things to try to improve things for the people

1195
01:07:21,240 --> 01:07:24,560
Speaker 1: of Iran, and it was crushed and the reasonable people

1196
01:07:24,640 --> 01:07:27,520
Speaker 1: were murdered. So the people who took power when the

1197
01:07:27,520 --> 01:07:31,440
Speaker 1: CIA backed government eventually failed were not reasonable, Okay, And

1198
01:07:31,480 --> 01:07:33,760
Speaker 1: we could also talk about how like a lot of

1199
01:07:33,800 --> 01:07:36,640
Speaker 1: why Iran is so the Ranian government is so messed up.

1200
01:07:36,720 --> 01:07:38,920
Speaker 1: Is the horrible war they had with Iraq that was

1201
01:07:39,000 --> 01:07:42,400
Speaker 1: directly incided and encouraged and funded by the United States

1202
01:07:42,440 --> 01:07:46,680
Speaker 1: who armed both sides. Like yeah, it's you don't have

1203
01:07:46,760 --> 01:07:49,040
Speaker 1: to if someone disagrees with us, you don't have to

1204
01:07:49,080 --> 01:07:53,040
Speaker 1: rebut with the sins of the regime that was overthrown,

1205
01:07:53,640 --> 01:07:57,080
Speaker 1: because that's not the point. You can't predict what's going

1206
01:07:57,160 --> 01:07:59,840
Speaker 1: to happen in a situation like this, and when they

1207
01:08:00,240 --> 01:08:02,840
Speaker 1: had this party like, well, look how easy that was.

1208
01:08:03,680 --> 01:08:05,880
Speaker 1: You know, you have uh, you know, a government that

1209
01:08:05,920 --> 01:08:08,200
Speaker 1: looks like it's leading the wrong direction. You're gonna lose

1210
01:08:08,200 --> 01:08:10,280
Speaker 1: oil rights, and well, hey, if you think about it,

1211
01:08:10,320 --> 01:08:12,360
Speaker 1: that's the national security issue, because if we don't have

1212
01:08:12,440 --> 01:08:17,160
Speaker 1: oil that are whatever. It's like, okay, if you could

1213
01:08:17,160 --> 01:08:19,519
Speaker 1: go back to them and say, let me show you

1214
01:08:19,600 --> 01:08:23,080
Speaker 1: what the next seventy years looks like because of this,

1215
01:08:23,920 --> 01:08:26,559
Speaker 1: But they've made a different decision. I don't know. I

1216
01:08:26,600 --> 01:08:30,120
Speaker 1: don't know if they cared the thought that that they

1217
01:08:30,200 --> 01:08:33,559
Speaker 1: boiled the world down into such a simple equation. It's like, well,

1218
01:08:33,600 --> 01:08:36,800
Speaker 1: as long as we blunt the encroachment of the Soviets here,

1219
01:08:36,880 --> 01:08:40,880
Speaker 1: that's all that matters. It's like, is it really because

1220
01:08:41,080 --> 01:08:44,080
Speaker 1: you know that just because you repelled the Soviets, it

1221
01:08:44,120 --> 01:08:47,960
Speaker 1: doesn't mean that that place suddenly becomes a franchise of

1222
01:08:48,000 --> 01:08:51,840
Speaker 1: the United States. It's like everybody has this view of

1223
01:08:52,520 --> 01:08:54,519
Speaker 1: like World War Two, where it's like, well, you you

1224
01:08:54,600 --> 01:08:57,759
Speaker 1: defeat Germany and then you know, Germany becomes a modern

1225
01:08:58,200 --> 01:09:02,840
Speaker 1: industrial democracy, you like there are best friends. Now. It's like, yeah,

1226
01:09:02,960 --> 01:09:07,040
Speaker 1: it's not that simple. It's not. And the people still thought,

1227
01:09:07,080 --> 01:09:09,479
Speaker 1: like I heard that during the Iraq War. It's like, well,

1228
01:09:09,520 --> 01:09:11,840
Speaker 1: you know, once we get an American friendly regime in

1229
01:09:11,880 --> 01:09:14,920
Speaker 1: there and we bring democracy to them, and they will

1230
01:09:14,920 --> 01:09:18,160
Speaker 1: thank us, and they'll have their fast food franchises and

1231
01:09:18,160 --> 01:09:21,800
Speaker 1: they'll have consumerism. It's like, okay, do you know what

1232
01:09:21,960 --> 01:09:25,000
Speaker 1: the different like ethnic groups are in their region? Do

1233
01:09:25,040 --> 01:09:28,360
Speaker 1: you understand that the borders were drawn not by the

1234
01:09:28,400 --> 01:09:31,600
Speaker 1: Iraqis but by people who didn't live there, Like, do

1235
01:09:31,600 --> 01:09:33,840
Speaker 1: you understand any of that? Do you understand who the

1236
01:09:33,880 --> 01:09:36,720
Speaker 1: curds are? Do you understand what? There's so much that

1237
01:09:36,920 --> 01:09:41,360
Speaker 1: even the people who went to war I didn't know

1238
01:09:41,680 --> 01:09:44,160
Speaker 1: or care about, they like it to be you know that.

1239
01:09:44,479 --> 01:09:47,080
Speaker 1: I think George W. Bush even towards the end of

1240
01:09:47,160 --> 01:09:50,120
Speaker 1: his like he never was totally clear that there were

1241
01:09:50,200 --> 01:09:54,599
Speaker 1: different factions of Islam that hated each other like more

1242
01:09:54,640 --> 01:09:58,040
Speaker 1: than they hate us. The insistence on having this black

1243
01:09:58,080 --> 01:10:01,680
Speaker 1: and white view of the world is so destructive. But

1244
01:10:01,840 --> 01:10:03,479
Speaker 1: I swear to God, you see it come up again

1245
01:10:03,520 --> 01:10:06,679
Speaker 1: and again and and these people have to know better again.

1246
01:10:07,040 --> 01:10:10,599
Speaker 1: Just you had to race through the situation in Iran

1247
01:10:10,720 --> 01:10:13,040
Speaker 1: to try to explain it like that is the most

1248
01:10:13,040 --> 01:10:16,080
Speaker 1: surface level explanation. It still took you a while to

1249
01:10:16,120 --> 01:10:18,840
Speaker 1: get through it. I think some of the people making

1250
01:10:18,880 --> 01:10:22,560
Speaker 1: decisions did not necessarily have even that level of a

1251
01:10:22,680 --> 01:10:26,679
Speaker 1: grasp of because I don't think they would have been

1252
01:10:26,720 --> 01:10:30,840
Speaker 1: as enthused about sticking their their hands into it if

1253
01:10:30,840 --> 01:10:34,040
Speaker 1: they did, because they if you, if if so, you

1254
01:10:34,040 --> 01:10:35,960
Speaker 1: would look at and say, oh, there's no way this

1255
01:10:36,080 --> 01:10:38,919
Speaker 1: ends well, because you're not gonna be able to babysit

1256
01:10:39,000 --> 01:10:42,800
Speaker 1: that situation unless you just occupy the country. But we

1257
01:10:42,880 --> 01:10:45,760
Speaker 1: don't do that because we're the good guys. No, we

1258
01:10:45,840 --> 01:10:50,960
Speaker 1: um we do the good guy thing, which is overthrowing

1259
01:10:51,160 --> 01:10:53,880
Speaker 1: the democratically elected government, and then when a much worse

1260
01:10:54,000 --> 01:11:00,120
Speaker 1: government takes power, um endlessly saber rattling about their dangers um,

1261
01:11:00,160 --> 01:11:02,759
Speaker 1: which also has the effect of breaking some people's brains

1262
01:11:02,760 --> 01:11:07,240
Speaker 1: and making them defend the Iranian government because clearly, if

1263
01:11:07,760 --> 01:11:11,120
Speaker 1: it's just it all, it's just this this incredibly frustrating

1264
01:11:11,200 --> 01:11:16,200
Speaker 1: feedback loop where everything just is always accelerating into less

1265
01:11:16,240 --> 01:11:19,559
Speaker 1: and less reasonable and more and more dangerous things. I

1266
01:11:19,560 --> 01:11:23,200
Speaker 1: don't know. This is why I admire the rare person

1267
01:11:23,240 --> 01:11:26,840
Speaker 1: I run across who says, oh, I don't understand all

1268
01:11:26,880 --> 01:11:30,960
Speaker 1: that stuff is too confusing. It's like, actually, you're more

1269
01:11:31,040 --> 01:11:36,840
Speaker 1: correct the person the person on Twitter who thinks and

1270
01:11:37,160 --> 01:11:42,639
Speaker 1: characters and like a snarky burn you can summarize like

1271
01:11:42,880 --> 01:11:45,240
Speaker 1: what we should be doing over there shouldn't be doing

1272
01:11:45,320 --> 01:11:49,280
Speaker 1: over there, because it's it's like, man, I that's the

1273
01:11:49,320 --> 01:11:52,759
Speaker 1: attitude that that got us into this situation that it's

1274
01:11:52,800 --> 01:11:55,160
Speaker 1: it's like, well, these people are bad, and so we'll

1275
01:11:55,720 --> 01:11:58,880
Speaker 1: we'll just kick them over and then leave and it'll

1276
01:11:58,960 --> 01:12:06,520
Speaker 1: all sort itself. Well no, no, so yeah, Jason, Um,

1277
01:12:06,560 --> 01:12:08,519
Speaker 1: you know, that's most of what we're going to cover.

1278
01:12:08,600 --> 01:12:11,080
Speaker 1: In terms of the CIA's FUCKERI in this period, I mean,

1279
01:12:11,080 --> 01:12:14,040
Speaker 1: there's so much. Over the following years, Allen dulass Cia

1280
01:12:14,080 --> 01:12:16,840
Speaker 1: would create the Republic of South Vietnam almost out of

1281
01:12:16,880 --> 01:12:21,000
Speaker 1: whole cloth, which was pretty horrible government. Um, and they

1282
01:12:21,040 --> 01:12:23,439
Speaker 1: did it in order to challenge you know, the North. Uh.

1283
01:12:23,479 --> 01:12:26,080
Speaker 1: They attempted to carry out a coup in Indonesia, which failed.

1284
01:12:26,360 --> 01:12:30,000
Speaker 1: In nineteen sixty Allan Dulas helped to mastermind the assassination

1285
01:12:30,000 --> 01:12:33,800
Speaker 1: of Patrice Lamumba, a socialist president of the Congo. Prior

1286
01:12:33,840 --> 01:12:37,040
Speaker 1: to Lamamba's killing, Dullas wrote, quote, if Lamomba continues to

1287
01:12:37,080 --> 01:12:39,639
Speaker 1: be in power, the result will be at best chaos

1288
01:12:39,640 --> 01:12:42,640
Speaker 1: and at worst in eventual seizure of power by the communists,

1289
01:12:42,880 --> 01:12:45,720
Speaker 1: with disastrous consequences for the prestige of the u WIN

1290
01:12:46,000 --> 01:12:48,599
Speaker 1: and the interests of the free world. His dismissal must

1291
01:12:48,640 --> 01:12:53,360
Speaker 1: therefore be an urgent and priority objective. Now, Lamamba's assassination

1292
01:12:53,479 --> 01:12:58,160
Speaker 1: led to a horrible, violent war the presidency of Joseph Mbutu,

1293
01:12:58,240 --> 01:13:01,160
Speaker 1: a brutal dictator who robbed the nation lined and left

1294
01:13:01,200 --> 01:13:03,600
Speaker 1: it and like what is still to this day a

1295
01:13:03,640 --> 01:13:07,080
Speaker 1: perpetual state of multi civil war. There's just I mean,

1296
01:13:07,240 --> 01:13:09,719
Speaker 1: the Congo has been torn apart ever since. And obviously

1297
01:13:09,880 --> 01:13:11,960
Speaker 1: a lot of that blame goes onto the Belgians too.

1298
01:13:12,040 --> 01:13:18,120
Speaker 1: But it's just farcical that that that Dullas ever thought that, like, oh,

1299
01:13:18,160 --> 01:13:20,439
Speaker 1: if Lamombo gets in power, then we'll have chaos and

1300
01:13:20,479 --> 01:13:23,960
Speaker 1: the congo like nobody. And again, I don't know if

1301
01:13:23,960 --> 01:13:26,000
Speaker 1: you were to tell him what had happened, if he

1302
01:13:26,040 --> 01:13:30,240
Speaker 1: would have changed his actions. I don't think so Um,

1303
01:13:30,280 --> 01:13:34,240
Speaker 1: I just don't now. Alan Dulas retired in nineteen sixty one.

1304
01:13:34,240 --> 01:13:36,400
Speaker 1: I think Foster had been out for a while at that,

1305
01:13:36,439 --> 01:13:37,880
Speaker 1: but I mean he was only Secretary of State for

1306
01:13:38,080 --> 01:13:40,720
Speaker 1: you know, four years or so he passed away, I think,

1307
01:13:40,760 --> 01:13:43,000
Speaker 1: and then he passed by nineteen fifty nine something like that.

1308
01:13:43,040 --> 01:13:46,960
Speaker 1: Am I wrong about Dullas Foster? Yeah? I thought he.

1309
01:13:47,200 --> 01:13:50,599
Speaker 1: I thought he left office nine nine for health reasons. Yeah,

1310
01:13:50,720 --> 01:13:53,880
Speaker 1: nineteen fifty nine, and he was in so Um when

1311
01:13:53,920 --> 01:13:57,000
Speaker 1: he died. That's where why we have Dullas Airport is

1312
01:13:57,040 --> 01:13:59,360
Speaker 1: it got named after him. And I think it was

1313
01:13:59,400 --> 01:14:03,240
Speaker 1: actually J. F. K who who inaugurated Dullas Airport and

1314
01:14:03,280 --> 01:14:06,240
Speaker 1: given nice speech about, you know, all of the wonderful

1315
01:14:06,280 --> 01:14:09,080
Speaker 1: things that that Foster Dulas had done for the country.

1316
01:14:09,280 --> 01:14:12,640
Speaker 1: It was not named after Alan Dullas Um. There was

1317
01:14:12,680 --> 01:14:15,160
Speaker 1: a statue of Foster Dulas that used to be in

1318
01:14:15,360 --> 01:14:19,040
Speaker 1: Dullas Airport that is now has been moved out of

1319
01:14:19,240 --> 01:14:21,200
Speaker 1: the public part of the airport, and it's now just

1320
01:14:21,280 --> 01:14:23,920
Speaker 1: kind of like sitting awkwardly in a conference room. Because

1321
01:14:24,240 --> 01:14:27,000
Speaker 1: about ten or so years later, people started to get

1322
01:14:27,040 --> 01:14:30,720
Speaker 1: embarrassed with Foster Dulas's legacy. Once again, you don't hear

1323
01:14:30,760 --> 01:14:34,600
Speaker 1: about these guys anymore, you know. Um, But yeah, it

1324
01:14:35,080 --> 01:14:39,080
Speaker 1: happened pretty quickly, Like these people went from being in

1325
01:14:39,120 --> 01:14:42,200
Speaker 1: the news constantly too by the time they were both

1326
01:14:42,240 --> 01:14:46,839
Speaker 1: out of politics in nineteen sixty one, fading really fast

1327
01:14:47,320 --> 01:14:52,320
Speaker 1: from popular memory considering how influential they were. Some of it,

1328
01:14:52,439 --> 01:14:55,200
Speaker 1: I think some of it's probably that people started to

1329
01:14:55,200 --> 01:14:57,200
Speaker 1: feel ashamed of what they've done, But I think more

1330
01:14:57,240 --> 01:15:00,400
Speaker 1: of it was probably it wasn't in anybody's best interests

1331
01:15:00,439 --> 01:15:03,519
Speaker 1: to help people remember, Like I think everyone listening to

1332
01:15:03,560 --> 01:15:08,519
Speaker 1: this heard about the Bay of Pigs in school, didn't

1333
01:15:08,600 --> 01:15:11,280
Speaker 1: but don't know the name Alan Dullas necessarily or don't

1334
01:15:11,280 --> 01:15:14,920
Speaker 1: remember it. Yeah, like all of these things that were

1335
01:15:15,920 --> 01:15:19,120
Speaker 1: just part of the Cold War and helped shape everything

1336
01:15:19,160 --> 01:15:21,920
Speaker 1: about the policy and all those different parts of the world.

1337
01:15:22,400 --> 01:15:26,679
Speaker 1: That's that was the dulless is all of it either

1338
01:15:27,000 --> 01:15:30,160
Speaker 1: entirely them or partly them. It's baffling how much they did.

1339
01:15:30,200 --> 01:15:31,680
Speaker 1: And the best way the highlight that is by how

1340
01:15:31,760 --> 01:15:34,719
Speaker 1: much we're leaving out. We're not talking about the Bay

1341
01:15:34,720 --> 01:15:38,280
Speaker 1: of Pigs, which was Alan Dulas Baby. We're not talking

1342
01:15:38,320 --> 01:15:42,080
Speaker 1: about the fact that after World War Two he was

1343
01:15:42,120 --> 01:15:45,120
Speaker 1: given the job of building a new German intelligence agency

1344
01:15:45,200 --> 01:15:48,799
Speaker 1: to combat the Soviets, and he hired General Reinhard Galen,

1345
01:15:49,080 --> 01:15:52,880
Speaker 1: Hitler's former head of intelligence. Galen played a huge role

1346
01:15:52,880 --> 01:15:55,400
Speaker 1: in the Holocaust. But dulla Is in the c I

1347
01:15:55,479 --> 01:15:58,519
Speaker 1: a kind of handwave that um and allowed him to

1348
01:15:58,680 --> 01:16:02,559
Speaker 1: hire other members of the Gestapo to work with the

1349
01:16:02,600 --> 01:16:06,799
Speaker 1: CIA in West Germany. There were complaints within the CIA

1350
01:16:06,840 --> 01:16:09,439
Speaker 1: about all of the Nazis they were having to work with.

1351
01:16:09,680 --> 01:16:11,720
Speaker 1: One of the guys who got brought in to work

1352
01:16:11,800 --> 01:16:15,280
Speaker 1: with the CIA was Conrad Fibig, who um worked at

1353
01:16:15,280 --> 01:16:17,879
Speaker 1: the CIA through Galen and was later charged with murdering

1354
01:16:17,920 --> 01:16:21,600
Speaker 1: eleven thousand Jews in Belarus during the war. There was

1355
01:16:21,640 --> 01:16:25,080
Speaker 1: a memo we have about this guy wherein one CIA

1356
01:16:25,080 --> 01:16:28,360
Speaker 1: employee suggests it might be smart to drop such types

1357
01:16:28,560 --> 01:16:35,559
Speaker 1: from employment, like and Dullis gets asked about this guy. Uh,

1358
01:16:35,640 --> 01:16:38,519
Speaker 1: Dellas gets asked about Galen in general the British, because

1359
01:16:38,520 --> 01:16:40,680
Speaker 1: the British are really unhappy with the fact that we

1360
01:16:40,800 --> 01:16:45,240
Speaker 1: keep hiring all these Nazis. Um and Dullis gets asked

1361
01:16:45,280 --> 01:16:48,520
Speaker 1: about like Galen and all the Nazis hire Again. Dallas's responses,

1362
01:16:48,680 --> 01:16:54,519
Speaker 1: I don't know if he's a rascal. Rasco was not

1363
01:16:54,640 --> 01:16:58,439
Speaker 1: the allegation the type of memo some of you in

1364
01:16:58,479 --> 01:17:02,400
Speaker 1: the listenership have gotten about an inappropriate term that they

1365
01:17:02,400 --> 01:17:04,920
Speaker 1: would like you to stop using an emails or something

1366
01:17:05,000 --> 01:17:08,120
Speaker 1: like that. They got that mimo about well maybe we

1367
01:17:08,160 --> 01:17:12,760
Speaker 1: should not hire x Nazis and was like, well, are

1368
01:17:12,800 --> 01:17:19,240
Speaker 1: you sure? Are the dude who killed the Lefon fastened people? Yeah,

1369
01:17:19,280 --> 01:17:24,120
Speaker 1: he's problematic. Are you aware of these problematic cancel culture

1370
01:17:24,200 --> 01:17:29,960
Speaker 1: comes for the SS. Now. One of the things that's

1371
01:17:29,960 --> 01:17:32,000
Speaker 1: funny is he like so so he says he gets

1372
01:17:32,040 --> 01:17:33,559
Speaker 1: asked about Galen, he says, I don't know if he's

1373
01:17:33,560 --> 01:17:36,599
Speaker 1: a rascal. There are a few archbishops and espionage. Besides,

1374
01:17:36,640 --> 01:17:40,200
Speaker 1: one needn't ask him to one's club. Which is funny

1375
01:17:40,240 --> 01:17:44,240
Speaker 1: because Alan DULs absolutely invited Reinhard Galen to his club

1376
01:17:44,280 --> 01:17:47,479
Speaker 1: on numerous occasions. He actually hosted parties for the Nazi

1377
01:17:47,520 --> 01:17:49,920
Speaker 1: spy chief at the Chevy Chase Club whenever he would

1378
01:17:50,000 --> 01:17:58,120
Speaker 1: visit DC. Um, it's just good ship, it's just good ship. Um. Now.

1379
01:17:58,200 --> 01:18:01,680
Speaker 1: Galen's big influence on Alan Dullus was the fact that

1380
01:18:01,720 --> 01:18:04,520
Speaker 1: Galen was a guy who believed that everything was justified

1381
01:18:04,560 --> 01:18:08,080
Speaker 1: in combating the communist threat. Um. He wrote at one point,

1382
01:18:08,120 --> 01:18:10,479
Speaker 1: in an age in which war is the paramount activity

1383
01:18:10,520 --> 01:18:13,840
Speaker 1: of man, the total annihilation of the enemy is its

1384
01:18:13,840 --> 01:18:16,639
Speaker 1: primary aim, which is a very fascist thing to say,

1385
01:18:16,680 --> 01:18:19,000
Speaker 1: and something both of the Dullis brothers got on board

1386
01:18:19,040 --> 01:18:22,720
Speaker 1: with because they were instrumental in pushing a policy on

1387
01:18:22,760 --> 01:18:27,800
Speaker 1: the US government called massive retaliation. John Foster doulla Is

1388
01:18:27,840 --> 01:18:30,120
Speaker 1: actually laid out this idea in a speech to the

1389
01:18:30,160 --> 01:18:33,080
Speaker 1: CFR when he insisted the U s would protect its

1390
01:18:33,080 --> 01:18:37,880
Speaker 1: allies quote through the deterrent of massive retaliatory power. I'm

1391
01:18:37,880 --> 01:18:39,960
Speaker 1: gonna quote from a write up and history dot Com here.

1392
01:18:40,800 --> 01:18:44,000
Speaker 1: Dullis began his speech by examining the communist strategy that

1393
01:18:44,080 --> 01:18:47,080
Speaker 1: he concluded has it had at its goal the bankruptcy

1394
01:18:47,120 --> 01:18:50,200
Speaker 1: of the United States through over extension of its military power,

1395
01:18:50,520 --> 01:18:54,120
Speaker 1: but strategically and economically, the secretary explained it was unwise

1396
01:18:54,200 --> 01:18:57,879
Speaker 1: to permanently commit US land forces in Asia to support

1397
01:18:57,880 --> 01:19:01,880
Speaker 1: permanently other countries, or to become permanently committed to military

1398
01:19:01,880 --> 01:19:06,639
Speaker 1: expenditure so that vast they lied to lead to practical bankruptcy. Instead,

1399
01:19:06,680 --> 01:19:09,960
Speaker 1: he believed a new policy of getting maximum protection at

1400
01:19:09,960 --> 01:19:13,320
Speaker 1: a bearable cost should be developed. Although Dollas did not

1401
01:19:13,360 --> 01:19:15,880
Speaker 1: directly refer to nuclear weapons, it was clear that the

1402
01:19:15,880 --> 01:19:19,240
Speaker 1: new policy was describing would depend upon the massive retaliatory

1403
01:19:19,280 --> 01:19:22,160
Speaker 1: power of such weapons. Which is interesting because on a

1404
01:19:22,200 --> 01:19:25,520
Speaker 1: moral level, what he's saying here is it's too expensive

1405
01:19:25,560 --> 01:19:27,720
Speaker 1: to go to war all the times we would need

1406
01:19:27,760 --> 01:19:29,640
Speaker 1: to go to war to counter the Soviets. You know

1407
01:19:29,680 --> 01:19:36,600
Speaker 1: what's cheap is a fucking nuke. That's good ship. And

1408
01:19:36,680 --> 01:19:39,080
Speaker 1: we could talk a lot about massive retaliation and how

1409
01:19:39,120 --> 01:19:41,400
Speaker 1: that idea played a big role in the escalation of

1410
01:19:41,400 --> 01:19:45,599
Speaker 1: the US commitment to Vietnam in Nixon's bombing of Cambodia. UM.

1411
01:19:45,640 --> 01:19:49,000
Speaker 1: But we're running way too long as it is. UM.

1412
01:19:49,120 --> 01:19:52,840
Speaker 1: I want to end by acknowledging mk ultra Um, which

1413
01:19:52,840 --> 01:19:54,840
Speaker 1: is the part of Dolus's legacy that I think people

1414
01:19:54,840 --> 01:19:57,160
Speaker 1: are probably most familiar with. This is the CIA giving

1415
01:19:57,160 --> 01:20:01,519
Speaker 1: everybody LSD. The idea behind this was that Alan Dulas

1416
01:20:01,520 --> 01:20:04,160
Speaker 1: had become convinced that the Soviets were carrying out mind

1417
01:20:04,200 --> 01:20:07,960
Speaker 1: control research and we needed to do mind control research

1418
01:20:08,040 --> 01:20:11,360
Speaker 1: to counter them, even though we actually had information that

1419
01:20:11,400 --> 01:20:14,720
Speaker 1: they weren't really doing all that much um. But that

1420
01:20:14,800 --> 01:20:17,280
Speaker 1: was beside the point. Alan Dulas wanted thousands of people

1421
01:20:17,280 --> 01:20:19,679
Speaker 1: to be dosed with LSD, and that's exactly what happened.

1422
01:20:19,880 --> 01:20:23,120
Speaker 1: We'll do a whole two partter on this someday. For

1423
01:20:23,240 --> 01:20:25,000
Speaker 1: right now, I want to talk about the aspect of

1424
01:20:25,000 --> 01:20:27,960
Speaker 1: it that had the biggest that says the most about

1425
01:20:27,960 --> 01:20:30,360
Speaker 1: Alan Dulas as a human being, which is the fact

1426
01:20:30,400 --> 01:20:33,000
Speaker 1: that he subjected his son to some aspects of the

1427
01:20:33,080 --> 01:20:37,679
Speaker 1: mk Ultra program. So his kid, Alan Dulas Jr. Or Sonny,

1428
01:20:37,840 --> 01:20:40,479
Speaker 1: was a brilliant young man with an incredible academic record

1429
01:20:40,479 --> 01:20:42,720
Speaker 1: and a sharp mind. His mom and his sisters all

1430
01:20:42,720 --> 01:20:46,520
Speaker 1: adored him, but Alan Dulas Sr. Was kind of incapable

1431
01:20:46,520 --> 01:20:48,880
Speaker 1: of taking any pride in his son, and this kind

1432
01:20:48,880 --> 01:20:50,960
Speaker 1: of pushed his son to try to impress him, and

1433
01:20:51,000 --> 01:20:53,640
Speaker 1: in order to do this, Sonny joined the Marine Corps.

1434
01:20:53,680 --> 01:20:57,040
Speaker 1: He fought with incredible courage in Korea and one commendations

1435
01:20:57,080 --> 01:20:59,880
Speaker 1: for reckless bravery under fire until he was hit by

1436
01:21:00,040 --> 01:21:03,640
Speaker 1: North Korean shell in nifty two and his brain was

1437
01:21:03,680 --> 01:21:07,160
Speaker 1: permanently damaged. When he came home, Sonny was unable to

1438
01:21:07,160 --> 01:21:09,599
Speaker 1: take care of himself. Therapy did not seem to help.

1439
01:21:09,600 --> 01:21:12,000
Speaker 1: He would get lost easily. He would launch into angry

1440
01:21:12,080 --> 01:21:14,200
Speaker 1: rants where he called his father a Hitler lover and

1441
01:21:14,240 --> 01:21:17,920
Speaker 1: a Nazi collaborator. His family dubbed these paranoid, even though

1442
01:21:17,920 --> 01:21:21,760
Speaker 1: they were pretty accurate. In desperation, Alan Dulas sent his

1443
01:21:21,840 --> 01:21:24,599
Speaker 1: son to Dr Harold Wolfe, who worked on the MK

1444
01:21:24,760 --> 01:21:27,400
Speaker 1: Ultra program. We know something of what was done to

1445
01:21:27,479 --> 01:21:30,719
Speaker 1: Sonny thanks to his sister Joan, who visited him during

1446
01:21:30,760 --> 01:21:35,840
Speaker 1: this period. From the Devil's Chessboard quote. Joan has disturbing

1447
01:21:35,840 --> 01:21:38,280
Speaker 1: memories of visiting her brother at a New York hospital

1448
01:21:38,280 --> 01:21:42,320
Speaker 1: where he was subjected to excruciating insulin shock therapy, one

1449
01:21:42,320 --> 01:21:46,160
Speaker 1: of the experimental procedures employed on the CIA's human guinea pigs,

1450
01:21:46,640 --> 01:21:49,880
Speaker 1: used primarily for the treatment of schizophrenia. Insulin doses were

1451
01:21:49,880 --> 01:21:53,240
Speaker 1: meant to jolt patients out of their madness. The procedure

1452
01:21:53,280 --> 01:21:57,040
Speaker 1: resulted in coma and sometimes violent convulsions. The most severe

1453
01:21:57,120 --> 01:21:59,760
Speaker 1: risks included death and brain damage. The one study at

1454
01:21:59,760 --> 01:22:02,040
Speaker 1: the time I claimed that this mental impairment was actually

1455
01:22:02,120 --> 01:22:07,599
Speaker 1: beneficial because it reduced patients tension and hostility. Joan recalls

1456
01:22:07,640 --> 01:22:10,320
Speaker 1: that her brother kept begging her when she visited him,

1457
01:22:10,360 --> 01:22:13,960
Speaker 1: can't you do something for me? I'm going mad? He

1458
01:22:14,000 --> 01:22:17,240
Speaker 1: showed no improvement from his treatment. Um, and of course

1459
01:22:17,280 --> 01:22:20,559
Speaker 1: obviously he wouldn't. Um. It just seems to have done

1460
01:22:20,600 --> 01:22:24,720
Speaker 1: horrible damage. Eventually he just started like stopped talking to

1461
01:22:24,880 --> 01:22:28,519
Speaker 1: his parents and stopped, like like he just decided, like

1462
01:22:28,560 --> 01:22:30,640
Speaker 1: I have to just pretend that I'm fine so that

1463
01:22:30,680 --> 01:22:34,920
Speaker 1: they will stop torturing me this way. UM, I don't know,

1464
01:22:35,240 --> 01:22:38,720
Speaker 1: it's that's that's Alan fucking Dullus, you know. I mean,

1465
01:22:38,760 --> 01:22:41,320
Speaker 1: of course he would like that's how he solves his problems.

1466
01:22:41,560 --> 01:22:42,960
Speaker 1: And and I don't know if you were about to

1467
01:22:43,040 --> 01:22:46,360
Speaker 1: cover this, but now he was fired after the Bay

1468
01:22:46,360 --> 01:22:50,760
Speaker 1: of Pigs. Correct then can be effectively forced him to resigned.

1469
01:22:50,840 --> 01:22:55,240
Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, so I I began this series by

1470
01:22:55,320 --> 01:22:59,640
Speaker 1: talking about my first like exposure to him in the

1471
01:22:59,680 --> 01:23:03,040
Speaker 1: realm of like ci a conspiracy stuff was in Oliver

1472
01:23:03,160 --> 01:23:10,520
Speaker 1: Stone GfK movie because after Kennedy fired Dullus, and then

1473
01:23:10,800 --> 01:23:14,599
Speaker 1: exactly two years later or so, h Kennedy would be

1474
01:23:15,080 --> 01:23:20,680
Speaker 1: assassinated right November twenty seconds something like that. Uh. And

1475
01:23:20,720 --> 01:23:23,120
Speaker 1: then when they would form the warrant commission to try

1476
01:23:23,160 --> 01:23:28,280
Speaker 1: to find out who had assassinated JFK, Alan Dullas winds

1477
01:23:28,360 --> 01:23:33,800
Speaker 1: up on the commission who JFK had fired for doing

1478
01:23:34,120 --> 01:23:39,840
Speaker 1: for botching his his behind the scenes uh C I

1479
01:23:40,000 --> 01:23:43,400
Speaker 1: a stuff in the form of the Bay of Pigs.

1480
01:23:43,400 --> 01:23:48,840
Speaker 1: So if you're wondering why like conspiracy theories and stuff

1481
01:23:48,920 --> 01:23:53,200
Speaker 1: persist and why they have like there's enough truth for

1482
01:23:53,280 --> 01:23:56,519
Speaker 1: them to go on to keep them fueled, it's stuff

1483
01:23:56,600 --> 01:24:02,160
Speaker 1: like this, Like that's that's as shady as can be.

1484
01:24:02,360 --> 01:24:06,400
Speaker 1: It would seem to to my uh innocent eyes. Yeah,

1485
01:24:06,520 --> 01:24:09,240
Speaker 1: it's incredibly shady. It's one of those reasons where when

1486
01:24:09,240 --> 01:24:12,559
Speaker 1: I'm talking about conspiracy theories, I don't put the JFK

1487
01:24:12,680 --> 01:24:16,719
Speaker 1: assassination in the same realm as you know, hollow earth stuff,

1488
01:24:17,000 --> 01:24:21,360
Speaker 1: because there's reasons to have questions about what went down,

1489
01:24:21,520 --> 01:24:24,280
Speaker 1: you know, not that I'm you know, a magic bullet

1490
01:24:24,439 --> 01:24:26,680
Speaker 1: or like whatever, like I I don't, I'm not, I

1491
01:24:26,720 --> 01:24:29,439
Speaker 1: have no, I'm not convinced on that, but it's certainly

1492
01:24:29,800 --> 01:24:32,439
Speaker 1: there's some sketchy ass ship that went down. It would

1493
01:24:32,439 --> 01:24:37,760
Speaker 1: be weird if people weren't theorizing about reasons why that

1494
01:24:37,840 --> 01:24:40,599
Speaker 1: might have happened. I want to end Jason because we've

1495
01:24:40,600 --> 01:24:43,400
Speaker 1: mostly talked about the Dullest Brothers and the kind of

1496
01:24:43,439 --> 01:24:46,040
Speaker 1: men they were, how they came about, and how that

1497
01:24:46,120 --> 01:24:48,240
Speaker 1: led them into what they did, and how that led

1498
01:24:48,280 --> 01:24:50,800
Speaker 1: to the creation of the CIA. I also want to

1499
01:24:50,880 --> 01:24:53,720
Speaker 1: quote a passage from The Brothers by Stephen Kinzer that

1500
01:24:53,800 --> 01:24:56,800
Speaker 1: lays out kind of the talent Alan cultivated because he

1501
01:24:56,840 --> 01:24:59,519
Speaker 1: was he headed the CIA during its formative years. This

1502
01:24:59,560 --> 01:25:01,960
Speaker 1: talks out the kind of people he recruited, and I

1503
01:25:01,960 --> 01:25:04,839
Speaker 1: think this is the note that I want to end on. Quote.

1504
01:25:05,360 --> 01:25:09,599
Speaker 1: All were gregarious, intrigued by possibilities, liked to do things,

1505
01:25:09,840 --> 01:25:13,559
Speaker 1: had three bright ideas a day, shared the optimism of

1506
01:25:13,560 --> 01:25:17,200
Speaker 1: stock market plungers, and were convinced that every problem had

1507
01:25:17,280 --> 01:25:19,800
Speaker 1: its handle and that the CIA should find a way

1508
01:25:19,840 --> 01:25:23,280
Speaker 1: to reach it. The intelligence historian Thomas Powers has written

1509
01:25:23,680 --> 01:25:27,040
Speaker 1: they also tended to be white Anglo Saxon patricians from

1510
01:25:27,080 --> 01:25:30,200
Speaker 1: old families with old money, at least at the beginning

1511
01:25:30,439 --> 01:25:34,320
Speaker 1: and they somehow inherited traditional British attitudes towards the colored

1512
01:25:34,400 --> 01:25:37,600
Speaker 1: races of the world, not the puka sahib arrogance of

1513
01:25:37,600 --> 01:25:41,280
Speaker 1: the Indian Raj, but the mixed fascination and condescension of

1514
01:25:41,320 --> 01:25:44,960
Speaker 1: men like T. E. Lawrence, who were enthusiastic partisans of

1515
01:25:45,000 --> 01:25:47,759
Speaker 1: the alien cultures into which they dipped for a time,

1516
01:25:48,080 --> 01:25:50,960
Speaker 1: and rarely doubted their ability to help until it was

1517
01:25:51,000 --> 01:25:54,640
Speaker 1: too late. These were the best men who formed the

1518
01:25:54,720 --> 01:25:58,840
Speaker 1: core of the early CIA. Most came from privileged backgrounds

1519
01:25:58,880 --> 01:26:01,600
Speaker 1: that isolated them from ordinary life, and had gone to

1520
01:26:01,680 --> 01:26:05,000
Speaker 1: the right schools. During the war, they had traded genteel

1521
01:26:05,080 --> 01:26:09,240
Speaker 1: lives for death defying adventures. Upon returning home, they found

1522
01:26:09,240 --> 01:26:14,479
Speaker 1: the quiet routines of peace unfulfilling. Yep, it is hard

1523
01:26:14,520 --> 01:26:22,160
Speaker 1: to overstate the power of boredom world events. And then

1524
01:26:22,160 --> 01:26:25,519
Speaker 1: when certain wealthy people can decide, for example, you know what,

1525
01:26:25,600 --> 01:26:29,080
Speaker 1: I think it would be funny if I ran for president. Uh.

1526
01:26:31,360 --> 01:26:34,920
Speaker 1: Sometimes sometimes people just want to find something to do

1527
01:26:35,200 --> 01:26:38,160
Speaker 1: and decide. You know what, I think that the uncivilized

1528
01:26:38,240 --> 01:26:42,519
Speaker 1: races need me to come rescue them. Yeah, it is it.

1529
01:26:42,520 --> 01:26:47,200
Speaker 1: It is fitting that all of the people who kind

1530
01:26:47,200 --> 01:26:49,040
Speaker 1: of form the background of the early c I are

1531
01:26:49,720 --> 01:26:53,960
Speaker 1: dull list types. They are rich kids from the aristocracy

1532
01:26:54,000 --> 01:26:57,439
Speaker 1: who go to private schools, have an exciting time in

1533
01:26:57,479 --> 01:27:01,800
Speaker 1: the war, and come home bored. And also I think

1534
01:27:01,840 --> 01:27:04,799
Speaker 1: with that kind of ego that they know what's best

1535
01:27:05,120 --> 01:27:07,040
Speaker 1: for the world. That has to be a factor. And

1536
01:27:07,080 --> 01:27:10,839
Speaker 1: then you've got people like Alan DAAs, who I fully

1537
01:27:10,840 --> 01:27:14,639
Speaker 1: believe a big chunk of his motivation is that nothing

1538
01:27:14,760 --> 01:27:20,640
Speaker 1: gets you laid like saying you're a spy. And yeah,

1539
01:27:20,040 --> 01:27:24,040
Speaker 1: you can overestimate the impact of boredom or getting laid,

1540
01:27:24,680 --> 01:27:27,000
Speaker 1: or his his ability to be able to say, well,

1541
01:27:27,040 --> 01:27:30,280
Speaker 1: you know that revolution just happened. That was me. It's

1542
01:27:30,320 --> 01:27:32,720
Speaker 1: like I was. I barely escaped with my life like

1543
01:27:32,840 --> 01:27:36,040
Speaker 1: I had. You know that that guy was assassinated. I

1544
01:27:36,120 --> 01:27:39,080
Speaker 1: killed him myself with a poison dart from my wrist. Watch.

1545
01:27:39,840 --> 01:27:41,720
Speaker 1: Why don't we talk about this? I can't tell the

1546
01:27:41,760 --> 01:27:43,720
Speaker 1: story here in the restaurant, but if we come up

1547
01:27:43,760 --> 01:27:46,360
Speaker 1: to my room whereas to see you and me, I

1548
01:27:46,400 --> 01:27:49,280
Speaker 1: can tell you the story in privacy with you and

1549
01:27:49,320 --> 01:27:51,800
Speaker 1: your twin sister, the three of us. You know you

1550
01:27:51,840 --> 01:27:57,320
Speaker 1: do a great Alan DUIs. So yeah, there you go, everybody.

1551
01:27:57,520 --> 01:28:00,720
Speaker 1: I these are two names. Everyone should know. These are

1552
01:28:00,800 --> 01:28:04,800
Speaker 1: names when when we say we have shorthand, like talk

1553
01:28:04,800 --> 01:28:08,360
Speaker 1: about this, that's McCarthy, is um or that's whatever. The

1554
01:28:08,439 --> 01:28:11,519
Speaker 1: names dullest should be among those that everybody knows his

1555
01:28:11,600 --> 01:28:14,639
Speaker 1: shorthand and they're not. So if we have helped some

1556
01:28:14,720 --> 01:28:17,599
Speaker 1: people know these names and know what hand they had

1557
01:28:17,640 --> 01:28:20,320
Speaker 1: in shaping the mess, that is a role today. There

1558
01:28:20,360 --> 01:28:23,479
Speaker 1: you go, We've done a service. Yes, that's all we

1559
01:28:23,560 --> 01:28:26,320
Speaker 1: ever tried to do service. And if you don't know

1560
01:28:26,439 --> 01:28:29,320
Speaker 1: the names of the modern versions of the dullest is

1561
01:28:29,439 --> 01:28:34,680
Speaker 1: find out m hm Yes, John Krazinski, Google John Krazinski.

1562
01:28:38,400 --> 01:28:44,960
Speaker 1: Jason you got anything to um? Yes? Since I yes.

1563
01:28:45,000 --> 01:28:49,680
Speaker 1: Since I abandoned uh the online publishing industry last year

1564
01:28:49,880 --> 01:28:52,160
Speaker 1: and left my job at Crack and a full time author,

1565
01:28:52,360 --> 01:28:55,679
Speaker 1: I am a New York Times bestselling author of several

1566
01:28:55,800 --> 01:28:59,920
Speaker 1: increasingly stupid books. The last one was called Zoe Punch

1567
01:29:00,040 --> 01:29:02,120
Speaker 1: is the Future and the Dick. It is a book

1568
01:29:02,160 --> 01:29:03,920
Speaker 1: two in a series. You do not have to have

1569
01:29:03,960 --> 01:29:05,680
Speaker 1: read the first one. It is as good of a

1570
01:29:05,680 --> 01:29:08,839
Speaker 1: place to start as any or you can go to Amazon,

1571
01:29:08,960 --> 01:29:10,880
Speaker 1: or if you have a more ethical place you buy

1572
01:29:10,880 --> 01:29:14,360
Speaker 1: your books from. You can prowse any of them by

1573
01:29:14,600 --> 01:29:18,400
Speaker 1: looking up my name. Um. Otherwise, I also have social media.

1574
01:29:19,120 --> 01:29:22,639
Speaker 1: All the social media is except TikTok. Are you on TikTok?

1575
01:29:22,720 --> 01:29:27,880
Speaker 1: Evans uh no no. I I am frightened and confused

1576
01:29:27,880 --> 01:29:30,479
Speaker 1: by anything that the kids like. Okay, so for you

1577
01:29:30,520 --> 01:29:35,400
Speaker 1: on TikTok. The handful of TikTok videos that I've seen

1578
01:29:35,760 --> 01:29:38,160
Speaker 1: segments of on Twitter have convinced me that we need

1579
01:29:38,200 --> 01:29:41,320
Speaker 1: to do a reverse logans run. I love TikTok. I'm

1580
01:29:41,360 --> 01:29:44,000
Speaker 1: just not like posting on there. It's a great time.

1581
01:29:44,080 --> 01:29:48,240
Speaker 1: I've learned so many helpful tips on organization and like

1582
01:29:48,600 --> 01:29:52,800
Speaker 1: what products to buy that actually work. It's like it's

1583
01:29:52,840 --> 01:29:57,480
Speaker 1: like yelp but video, Well, you can either do what Sophie.

1584
01:29:57,680 --> 01:29:59,600
Speaker 1: There's also a lot of puppies. There's a lot of

1585
01:29:59,640 --> 01:30:04,120
Speaker 1: puppy easy guys. I'm just gonna say it again reverse

1586
01:30:04,240 --> 01:30:07,280
Speaker 1: Logan's run. I said in the previous episode, though, like

1587
01:30:07,520 --> 01:30:09,479
Speaker 1: it's easy for us to look back on the past

1588
01:30:09,560 --> 01:30:13,360
Speaker 1: and condemn how casual they were about Nazis and various

1589
01:30:13,400 --> 01:30:15,599
Speaker 1: I think in the future they'll look back at how

1590
01:30:15,680 --> 01:30:19,200
Speaker 1: we tolerated TikTok and they'll say the same It's like,

1591
01:30:19,200 --> 01:30:21,519
Speaker 1: how could they not see where that was going? Yeah?

1592
01:30:22,000 --> 01:30:25,439
Speaker 1: How could they not tell that TikTok would lead to

1593
01:30:25,560 --> 01:30:29,280
Speaker 1: the annihilation of the dolphins in two? And I saw

1594
01:30:29,320 --> 01:30:33,680
Speaker 1: it coming? But thanks for having me on this was

1595
01:30:34,160 --> 01:30:36,559
Speaker 1: this was a lot of information to try to get

1596
01:30:36,560 --> 01:30:39,479
Speaker 1: through very quickly. We left out so much. We love

1597
01:30:39,560 --> 01:30:42,640
Speaker 1: thought so many stories that could have You're gonna do

1598
01:30:42,680 --> 01:30:45,960
Speaker 1: an entire series on mk ultra, a multi part series

1599
01:30:45,960 --> 01:30:48,719
Speaker 1: on mk ultra is also going to wind up leaving

1600
01:30:48,720 --> 01:30:51,960
Speaker 1: out a lot, a lot of a lot of wild shit.

1601
01:30:53,280 --> 01:30:55,840
Speaker 1: It's just the nature of it. If the best thing

1602
01:30:55,960 --> 01:30:58,160
Speaker 1: podcast can do is encouraged people to go out and

1603
01:30:58,200 --> 01:31:01,240
Speaker 1: buy books on the subject, and her susan further because

1604
01:31:01,680 --> 01:31:04,719
Speaker 1: you you are not informed because you listen to nine

1605
01:31:04,760 --> 01:31:07,120
Speaker 1: hours above podcast on it, I know it listens like

1606
01:31:07,160 --> 01:31:09,479
Speaker 1: there was a lot to get through. There's so much

1607
01:31:09,479 --> 01:31:12,880
Speaker 1: more and it's all just as interesting it really is.

1608
01:31:13,240 --> 01:31:16,919
Speaker 1: And if you want to learn more, buying The Brothers,

1609
01:31:17,000 --> 01:31:19,840
Speaker 1: which is where I recommend starting with Stephen kenzer Um

1610
01:31:19,880 --> 01:31:23,400
Speaker 1: and then The Devil's Chessboard by David Talbot, will will

1611
01:31:24,040 --> 01:31:27,400
Speaker 1: that that will actually give you a pretty solid base

1612
01:31:27,479 --> 01:31:29,600
Speaker 1: of understanding of these guys. And what they did. But

1613
01:31:29,640 --> 01:31:34,479
Speaker 1: of course there will still be a lot more, all right,