WEBVTT - The Real Shaker Heights 0:00:18.160 --> 0:00:22.079 Hello again, honorary residents of Shaker Heights Circle nine seven. 0:00:22.440 --> 0:00:26.120 This is Little Fires Everywhere, the official podcast, and I 0:00:26.160 --> 0:00:29.800 am your co host, Jamie Loftus. So if you're listening 0:00:29.800 --> 0:00:33.159 to this right after watching episode for we have a 0:00:33.280 --> 0:00:37.120 lot to talk about, and today I'm excited to give 0:00:37.159 --> 0:00:40.239 you a little taste of what Shaker Heights, Ohio is 0:00:40.360 --> 0:00:43.760 really like. In this episode, we're gonna be speaking with 0:00:43.880 --> 0:00:46.879 the author of Little Fires Everywhere, the novel celest Ng 0:00:47.360 --> 0:00:50.720 and we're also going to be speaking with real life 0:00:50.800 --> 0:00:55.000 Shaker Heights residents today, both city planners and current students 0:00:55.280 --> 0:00:58.800 with the Student Council on race relations. Really good stuff. 0:00:59.280 --> 0:01:01.680 But before we get there, I wanted to give you 0:01:01.800 --> 0:01:05.240 a brief history lesson. I know, bear with me. This 0:01:05.319 --> 0:01:09.360 is a brief history of Shaker Heights, Ohio. Because Shaker Heights, 0:01:09.440 --> 0:01:11.880 as you already know from watching the show, is not 0:01:11.959 --> 0:01:15.880 your average community. So Shaker Heights reached city status in 0:01:16.760 --> 0:01:20.080 one and like the nineties iteration we see in Little 0:01:20.080 --> 0:01:23.920 Fires Everywhere, it is known for its extremely specific building 0:01:23.959 --> 0:01:27.920 codes and zoning laws, carefully planning and regulating the length 0:01:27.920 --> 0:01:31.400 of grass, the color of houses, how far any given 0:01:31.440 --> 0:01:34.560 house should be from the nearest elementary school, and ensuring 0:01:34.680 --> 0:01:38.480 that the city is neighborhood watched and sidewalked carefully, amongst 0:01:38.520 --> 0:01:41.200 other things. Shaker Heights is not the only place of 0:01:41.240 --> 0:01:44.520 its kind. There are over a hundred planned cities and 0:01:44.600 --> 0:01:47.480 communities currently active in the US, but Shaker is by 0:01:47.520 --> 0:01:50.640 far the most famous of them, in part because of 0:01:50.680 --> 0:01:54.680 its reputation for adopting progressive policies that would later become 0:01:54.800 --> 0:01:58.360 standard across the country. Because over the years, Shaker Heights 0:01:58.360 --> 0:02:01.360 has made a variety of efforts to encourage integration in 0:02:01.400 --> 0:02:05.520 their community, two varying levels of success. Fast forward a 0:02:05.520 --> 0:02:08.639 couple more years. In nineteen seventy nine, things were finally 0:02:08.720 --> 0:02:12.440 starting to look up, with the Housing Office promising to 0:02:12.520 --> 0:02:16.720 show white home buyers homes in predominantly black neighborhoods and 0:02:17.000 --> 0:02:20.520 vice versa. This initiative led to something called the Fund 0:02:20.600 --> 0:02:24.359 for the Future of Shaker Heights in six, a home 0:02:24.400 --> 0:02:28.040 buyers loan program that provided black home buyers with loans 0:02:28.080 --> 0:02:30.800 to encourage them to move into neighborhoods that were at 0:02:30.880 --> 0:02:35.760 least white, and white homeowners loans to move into neighborhoods 0:02:35.800 --> 0:02:40.079 that were at least fifty black, and while well intentioned 0:02:40.160 --> 0:02:42.359 one of the themes in the show, this program was 0:02:42.400 --> 0:02:45.480 not able to overcome the inherent white supremacy of the 0:02:45.520 --> 0:02:49.000 real estate market itself, and not many black home buyers 0:02:49.040 --> 0:02:52.119 were able to afford homes in the majority white areas, 0:02:52.560 --> 0:02:55.400 and so by the nineteen nineties, white home buyers were 0:02:55.440 --> 0:03:00.200 receiving of the loans distributed And you know who else 0:03:00.360 --> 0:03:06.400 was in Shaker Heights in author Celeste Ing. Celeste was 0:03:06.440 --> 0:03:08.840 a student at Shaker High at the time that her 0:03:08.880 --> 0:03:12.160 novel takes place. The world that Mia and Pearl Warren 0:03:12.480 --> 0:03:15.360 drive into in their station wagon in the pilot episode, 0:03:15.680 --> 0:03:18.400 It's a world driven by for better or worse, the 0:03:18.560 --> 0:03:22.120 quote unquote good intentions of Elena Richardson and her fellow 0:03:22.160 --> 0:03:24.800 Shaker Rights. I got the chance to catch up with 0:03:24.880 --> 0:03:28.480 Celeste to get some insight into her history with Shaker 0:03:28.520 --> 0:03:32.000 Heights and what about that experience growing up gave way 0:03:32.040 --> 0:03:35.320 to the book and series we now know and love. So, 0:03:35.520 --> 0:03:40.760 without further ado, your Celeste, Hey, Celeste, uh So, just 0:03:40.800 --> 0:03:43.400 to get sorted, would you mind telling me a little 0:03:43.440 --> 0:03:47.480 bit about your personal history in Shaker Heights. Sure, I 0:03:47.520 --> 0:03:50.000 grew up in Shaker Heights. I moved there a little 0:03:50.000 --> 0:03:53.160 bit before I turned ten, and then I lived there 0:03:53.280 --> 0:03:55.800 until I went away to college, until I was about eighteen, 0:03:56.440 --> 0:03:58.480 and it was a really formative place for me, and 0:03:58.600 --> 0:04:01.480 I learned a lot ring up there, and it did 0:04:01.520 --> 0:04:03.560 shape me into the person that I am, for for 0:04:03.640 --> 0:04:07.080 better and for worse. Largely, I think for better. Um. 0:04:07.120 --> 0:04:11.400 It is a community that really puts its ideals right 0:04:11.560 --> 0:04:15.000 up front. That's shown, I think, not only in the 0:04:15.120 --> 0:04:19.040 history of the town, which was built as a sort 0:04:19.080 --> 0:04:23.559 of idealized town. Every road was planned out so that 0:04:24.120 --> 0:04:27.520 you know, the traffic wouldn't dart through the neighborhood, it 0:04:27.560 --> 0:04:30.280 would keep the area quiet, no children would have to 0:04:30.360 --> 0:04:33.960 cross a major street. Um. And it was also a 0:04:33.960 --> 0:04:37.120 place that, at least starting from the nineteen fifties, was 0:04:37.240 --> 0:04:41.080 really heavily invested in the idea of desegregation and of 0:04:41.120 --> 0:04:44.039 being racially diverse, at least in terms of black and white. 0:04:44.680 --> 0:04:47.440 So in the nineteen fifties there was a bomb at 0:04:47.560 --> 0:04:51.599 the house of a prominent black lawyer who lived in 0:04:51.600 --> 0:04:56.920 Shaker Heights, and this was at the height of white flight. UM. 0:04:56.960 --> 0:04:59.200 It was a problem that was happening all of the country, 0:04:59.360 --> 0:05:03.560 and Shaker Heights had this moment where they had to 0:05:03.560 --> 0:05:06.040 decide what are we going to do about this? Are 0:05:06.080 --> 0:05:11.560 we going to give in and let the different areas 0:05:11.600 --> 0:05:14.559 of town become more segregated, or are we going to 0:05:14.600 --> 0:05:18.279 actively try and combat that? And they chose to actively 0:05:18.279 --> 0:05:20.880 try and do something about it, and that's really been 0:05:21.240 --> 0:05:24.800 one of the guiding principles for the community since then. 0:05:25.200 --> 0:05:27.920 So when you were writing little fires everywhere, what was 0:05:28.040 --> 0:05:30.720 on your mind about the Shaker you grew up in. 0:05:31.600 --> 0:05:35.000 It is a place that is trying in ways that 0:05:35.040 --> 0:05:37.640 many other places aren't. And the question always is, Okay, 0:05:37.640 --> 0:05:41.160 are you trying enough? What's what's going wrong? Is it 0:05:41.240 --> 0:05:43.000 just human nature? And I think that's one of the 0:05:43.080 --> 0:05:46.800 questions that the community has been wrestling with for at 0:05:46.839 --> 0:05:50.719 least the thirty years that I've been connected with it. 0:05:50.720 --> 0:05:53.880 It is that sort of open question of intentions versus 0:05:53.880 --> 0:05:57.320 what actually comes out. I mean, they haven't solved racism, no, 0:05:57.880 --> 0:06:01.080 but at the same time, neither has anyone else. And 0:06:01.120 --> 0:06:03.880 that's because these problems are really huge and really complicated, 0:06:04.000 --> 0:06:07.040 and we're just trying to sort of wrestle with them 0:06:07.080 --> 0:06:09.560 as best we can. Okay, So what are the sort 0:06:09.560 --> 0:06:12.599 of questions that you were grappling with in regards to 0:06:12.640 --> 0:06:15.160 shake her throughout the writing of this book. I mean, 0:06:15.520 --> 0:06:18.800 how much can you kind of adhere to that idealism? 0:06:18.839 --> 0:06:22.400 I think it's easy for us to see Elena's idealism, 0:06:22.440 --> 0:06:25.440 even Elena's dogmatism we might call it, and that she 0:06:25.560 --> 0:06:27.960 has an idea of how your life is supposed to work, right, 0:06:27.960 --> 0:06:29.680 she has an idea of what you're supposed to be doing. 0:06:29.839 --> 0:06:32.119 These are the good choices that you're supposed to be making, 0:06:32.360 --> 0:06:35.400 assuming that you have them. Right. Um, it's easy for 0:06:35.480 --> 0:06:37.440 us to see that, I think because as a culture 0:06:37.720 --> 0:06:40.839 we're really biased towards the idea of the free spirit. 0:06:40.960 --> 0:06:42.839 We'd like to think of ourselves as being all, you know, 0:06:42.920 --> 0:06:45.960 free spirits and rebels, and that's that's kind of that's 0:06:46.000 --> 0:06:49.039 part of the foundation of our identity, right were you 0:06:49.120 --> 0:06:51.320 you're here, so you can do whatever you want. But 0:06:51.440 --> 0:06:55.599 the truth is that Mia also has her own kind 0:06:55.640 --> 0:06:59.440 of idealism. It is almost sort of fanaticism that she 0:06:59.640 --> 0:07:01.560 thinks this is how an artist lives. You give up 0:07:01.600 --> 0:07:04.120 all these things for your art, to the point that 0:07:04.200 --> 0:07:07.360 you may be uproot your daughter in the service of 0:07:07.480 --> 0:07:11.320 your art. That she really sacrifices a lot, and I 0:07:11.320 --> 0:07:13.560 think she starts to see also the limits of those things, 0:07:13.600 --> 0:07:16.080 where she comes to shake her heights. There's that really 0:07:16.440 --> 0:07:20.680 really wrenching moment um in the early episodes where Pearl 0:07:20.760 --> 0:07:23.600 says to her, I want more than one wall. You know, 0:07:23.680 --> 0:07:26.080 she's she's saying, I want to be able to stay here. 0:07:26.080 --> 0:07:28.200 I want more than just the little kind of tidbits 0:07:28.360 --> 0:07:30.400 that I've been allowed to have up until now. And 0:07:30.560 --> 0:07:33.400 you see that Mia is running up against the limits 0:07:33.440 --> 0:07:36.080 of how she's been living her life too. There's there's 0:07:36.120 --> 0:07:41.560 definitely not anyone in this story who comes out as 0:07:41.600 --> 0:07:45.800 sort of the hands clean, faultless person in the story. 0:07:46.080 --> 0:07:48.200 It is very much like and into the Woods moment 0:07:48.200 --> 0:07:50.040 of there's you know, everyone's pointing their fingers and saying 0:07:50.040 --> 0:07:51.440 it's your fault, and the truth is that it's kind 0:07:51.480 --> 0:07:54.120 of everybody's fault. And that question of good intentions too, 0:07:54.200 --> 0:07:57.040 it's like, you know, we're we're trying so hard to 0:07:57.120 --> 0:07:59.760 be our best selves, and yet we're also human beings, 0:07:59.800 --> 0:08:02.120 and of course the problem is that we always think 0:08:02.160 --> 0:08:05.280 that you know, your good intentions are are enough and 0:08:05.280 --> 0:08:08.800 should shield you, and do shield many people from the 0:08:08.840 --> 0:08:11.840 actual consequences of your actions, and this is really a 0:08:11.880 --> 0:08:15.400 story about a lot of your actions coming home and 0:08:15.440 --> 0:08:19.520 those consequences coming back to you. Thank you again to 0:08:19.600 --> 0:08:22.240 Celesting for the perspective and for the book that we 0:08:22.320 --> 0:08:26.040 are all very obsessed with. So in Celest we have 0:08:26.120 --> 0:08:29.000 a perfect end to the Shaker Heights of the nineties. 0:08:29.320 --> 0:08:32.960 But I was curious about what Schaker is like now. 0:08:33.600 --> 0:08:36.320 Has there been any easing to the many social issues 0:08:36.360 --> 0:08:38.439 we see at play in the series, And are the 0:08:38.520 --> 0:08:41.960 problems that Pearl Warren faces at Shaker High, specifically with 0:08:42.240 --> 0:08:45.480 getting into honors classes as a black student still relevant 0:08:45.480 --> 0:08:48.520 at the school today. And to answer these questions, I 0:08:48.559 --> 0:08:51.280 was lucky to get in touch with Tierra Sargent, one 0:08:51.320 --> 0:08:56.200 of the supervisors and graduate of the school's Student Group 0:08:56.280 --> 0:08:59.520 on Race Relations or SCORE, which is a group at 0:08:59.520 --> 0:09:03.000 Shaker that aims to have current students educate others in 0:09:03.000 --> 0:09:06.880 the community about systemic oppression and to foster healthier race 0:09:06.920 --> 0:09:10.160 relations in Shaker. Joining us on this call as well 0:09:10.160 --> 0:09:13.120 are two current Shaker High students and members of SCORE, 0:09:13.600 --> 0:09:18.880 students Jared Christopher and carly Lehman. Let's take a listen. Hi, 0:09:19.000 --> 0:09:22.600 my name is Tear sergeant and I am the Score advisor. Hi, 0:09:22.720 --> 0:09:25.960 I'm Carly in Score. I'm a core leader. I'm Jared, 0:09:26.280 --> 0:09:29.800 I'm also a core leader. Amazing. So I am curious, 0:09:29.840 --> 0:09:32.880 I mean because so much of the story follows the 0:09:32.960 --> 0:09:35.840 trials and tribulations of high school students and Shaker, but 0:09:36.040 --> 0:09:39.160 almost twenty five years ago. So just from your own 0:09:39.280 --> 0:09:42.559 personal experience having grown up there, what is that experience 0:09:42.600 --> 0:09:46.040 like growing in a very planned community. What are the 0:09:46.080 --> 0:09:49.680 advantages and then what are the drawbacks if if any? 0:09:49.840 --> 0:09:52.560 Tierra Um I up in the Moorland and gus Igent. 0:09:52.679 --> 0:09:56.120 So we used to have our own elementary school because 0:09:56.160 --> 0:09:58.240 I think it was planned for everybody to be able 0:09:58.240 --> 0:10:01.199 to walk to their own schools our neighborhood. We are 0:10:01.320 --> 0:10:07.480 bused to the Mercer neighborhood and so essentially Moreland is 0:10:08.040 --> 0:10:11.760 all African American and Mercer is all white, and so 0:10:11.960 --> 0:10:16.520 we were bused there to start integrating UM Mercer Elementary School. 0:10:16.920 --> 0:10:19.720 So I think I definitely do like the planning community. 0:10:20.440 --> 0:10:24.200 Like Carly said, I think it is a nice privilege 0:10:24.240 --> 0:10:27.080 that we don't recognize. But then you could see like 0:10:27.520 --> 0:10:30.600 how the plan didn't work and like how Mercer students 0:10:30.960 --> 0:10:34.840 are some Mercer students are bused to another neighborhood. So yeah, 0:10:35.080 --> 0:10:37.640 I wanted to ask about that because there is a 0:10:37.679 --> 0:10:41.679 storyline in Little Fires Everywhere, the series involving a black 0:10:41.720 --> 0:10:46.280 student who's transferred into Shaker from another school and experiences 0:10:46.320 --> 0:10:49.440 a lot of resistance from the guidance council system in 0:10:49.520 --> 0:10:51.880 getting into the advanced classes she deserves to be in 0:10:52.240 --> 0:10:55.280 because of her race. Is that something you've seen reflected 0:10:55.400 --> 0:10:58.400 in the current Shaker Heights system. Yeah, I think the 0:10:58.440 --> 0:11:02.480 guidance counselor issue we're talking and that is like that 0:11:02.640 --> 0:11:06.680 was the shocking detail that it's still true. I think 0:11:06.720 --> 0:11:10.360 a lot of times black families have to still fight 0:11:10.760 --> 0:11:15.120 for their children to have advanced classes. So about a 0:11:15.120 --> 0:11:18.280 month ago, we had an open discussion about how we 0:11:18.360 --> 0:11:21.400 say at Shaker that we have open enrollment, but do 0:11:21.480 --> 0:11:24.400 we truly have open enrollment of black families are still 0:11:25.000 --> 0:11:27.960 constantly fighting for their kids to be in advanced classes. 0:11:28.320 --> 0:11:31.120 I've experienced this, I know, Jared, your mom mentioned that 0:11:31.200 --> 0:11:36.240 you've experienced that. But then also Carly's brother Sam always 0:11:36.280 --> 0:11:41.959 makes this point about like privilege, um, and how yes, 0:11:42.000 --> 0:11:45.520 we want equity in the district, but sometimes white parents 0:11:45.559 --> 0:11:50.840 have to understand that they have privileged to and they 0:11:50.960 --> 0:11:53.480 might say that they want equity, but they really don't 0:11:53.480 --> 0:11:56.400 want equity because it might seem that their child is 0:11:56.840 --> 0:11:59.960 um getting a resource taken away. So it's really bring 0:12:00.000 --> 0:12:05.040 getting awareness to these types. Uh we could say mentalities 0:12:05.400 --> 0:12:08.360 um that are happening with the guy whose counselor thing. 0:12:08.520 --> 0:12:11.400 Not only do I notice that like people of other 0:12:11.520 --> 0:12:15.560 races are discouraged from taking upper level classes, but I 0:12:15.600 --> 0:12:19.559 also noticed that some classes will have mostly white students 0:12:19.559 --> 0:12:21.920 and some classes who have mostly black students despite being 0:12:21.960 --> 0:12:26.360 the same level. And that came to in like another 0:12:26.400 --> 0:12:30.600 way of separating us, even though just another reason why 0:12:30.800 --> 0:12:34.120 we should be more together because we all have the 0:12:34.160 --> 0:12:37.160 same type of ability. The gods counselor system just should 0:12:37.440 --> 0:12:40.800 be more aware that when separating the classes. Currently, if 0:12:40.920 --> 0:12:45.240 you were able to get through to the powers that 0:12:45.280 --> 0:12:49.120 be in Shaker and make some changes, what kind of 0:12:49.200 --> 0:12:51.319 changes do you want to see made in your community? 0:12:51.760 --> 0:12:54.120 I think a big thing with the education gaps, It's 0:12:54.200 --> 0:12:56.960 just like with teachers are a classes all the teachers 0:12:56.960 --> 0:12:59.640 are white, basically like finding right more diversity than that. 0:13:01.280 --> 0:13:06.280 So we're hiring a chief Diversity Officer which when I 0:13:06.320 --> 0:13:07.559 was in high school, I was like, I wish you 0:13:07.640 --> 0:13:11.200 had a chief Diversity officer and administration. So it's really 0:13:11.200 --> 0:13:13.360 cool to see that we are going to have someone 0:13:13.360 --> 0:13:16.760 who is solely focused on these issues and not like 0:13:16.960 --> 0:13:20.560 other administrators who just have to like tackle this this 0:13:20.679 --> 0:13:23.040 issue while doing the rest of their job, Like this 0:13:23.120 --> 0:13:25.880 is going to be someone's first priority. So I am 0:13:25.920 --> 0:13:29.200 appreciative of that, um but I think also that we 0:13:29.280 --> 0:13:32.960 need to address the wealth gap. And obviously the wealth 0:13:33.000 --> 0:13:37.040 gap correlates directly with race. So if you don't have 0:13:37.440 --> 0:13:40.160 the resources to have a tutor, you might not have 0:13:40.240 --> 0:13:43.640 the ability to have the resources that some of your 0:13:43.640 --> 0:13:46.679 white counterparts have because they have a tutor. Or if 0:13:46.679 --> 0:13:50.520 you don't have the resources to buy expensible across equipment, 0:13:50.559 --> 0:13:52.840 like my brother plays across and he's one of the 0:13:52.880 --> 0:13:58.040 only African Americans on lacrosse, so really tackling the wealth gap. 0:13:58.240 --> 0:14:01.560 So just really far feel and shaker to understand what 0:14:02.040 --> 0:14:06.880 he is and truly wanting to have equity for everyone. Oh, 0:14:06.960 --> 0:14:08.920 thank you so much to all three of you for 0:14:09.040 --> 0:14:12.200 taking the time to talk with us. I really appreciate it. 0:14:12.480 --> 0:14:17.480 Thank you, thanks for having us. Thank you so as 0:14:17.559 --> 0:14:20.800 you can hear, Shaker is a very complicated place, and 0:14:21.080 --> 0:14:22.840 I was still trying to wrap my head around the 0:14:22.880 --> 0:14:25.480 ins and outs of what a planned community really is 0:14:25.600 --> 0:14:28.840 and what it represents. So I put on my big 0:14:28.880 --> 0:14:32.600 girl Elena pants minus all the problematic parts, and I 0:14:32.680 --> 0:14:35.320 decided to ask the women who are currently leading the 0:14:35.440 --> 0:14:39.160 charge planning and Shaker today. This is a conversation I 0:14:39.160 --> 0:14:42.680 had recently with Joyce Rayberman, the director of Shaker Heights 0:14:42.720 --> 0:14:46.440 City Planning, and Julie Boys, the Shaker Heights Communications Director, 0:14:46.920 --> 0:14:51.080 the week before Little Fires Everywhere first aired. So let's 0:14:51.120 --> 0:14:57.520 take a listen. Hello, ladies. So before we get started, 0:14:57.560 --> 0:15:01.640 just so everyone can tell who's speaking, let's to introduce ourselves. Hi. 0:15:01.840 --> 0:15:05.000 I'm Julie McGovern Boise, and I am the director of 0:15:05.040 --> 0:15:08.200 Communications and Marketing for the City of Shaker Heights. And 0:15:08.280 --> 0:15:11.360 I'm Joyce Braverman, and I am the Planning director for 0:15:11.400 --> 0:15:13.800 the City of Shaker Heights and I've been with the 0:15:13.840 --> 0:15:16.880 city for thirty years. I've only been with the city 0:15:16.920 --> 0:15:21.560 for ten years, but I was born raised here. So wow, okay, 0:15:21.600 --> 0:15:25.720 So for many people um watching Little Fires Everywhere is 0:15:25.720 --> 0:15:29.480 going to be their introduction to Shaker Heights. Just for 0:15:29.680 --> 0:15:32.800 us newcomers. Um, if you had to describe what is 0:15:32.800 --> 0:15:36.240 Shaker Heights, we are a planned community. We were planned 0:15:36.240 --> 0:15:39.160 by the vance swer Engine brothers in the early nineteen 0:15:39.680 --> 0:15:42.840 nineteen twelve who bought up most of the land of 0:15:42.880 --> 0:15:46.560 Shaker Heights early in their career, so they developed this 0:15:46.680 --> 0:15:50.920 beautiful community. They wanted to control how the built form looks, 0:15:50.920 --> 0:15:53.960 so that was very important to them. And they had 0:15:54.000 --> 0:15:58.440 a publication called the Van swer Engine Design Standards, and 0:15:58.600 --> 0:16:02.520 these talked about building your house and three styles, and 0:16:02.600 --> 0:16:06.160 this appears in the book Tutor French and Colonial. And 0:16:06.280 --> 0:16:10.000 they also had standards for paint colors and which colors 0:16:10.040 --> 0:16:12.200 to paint the trim of your house and the body 0:16:12.240 --> 0:16:15.920 of the house. They also called for the homes to 0:16:15.960 --> 0:16:20.120 be designed by a competent architect. And what they meant 0:16:20.160 --> 0:16:23.840 by this was an architect that was known. It was 0:16:23.880 --> 0:16:26.640 an era in the early nineteen hundreds were some of 0:16:26.640 --> 0:16:29.200 the finest architects were at the height of their careers 0:16:29.560 --> 0:16:33.080 in the Cleveland area. And also to regulate good taste. 0:16:33.440 --> 0:16:36.160 They were very concerned about someone who might not have 0:16:36.240 --> 0:16:39.520 good taste. So that's kind of the history of Shaker Heights. 0:16:39.920 --> 0:16:43.520 That's so interesting. I am very interested in the planning aspect, 0:16:43.600 --> 0:16:45.880 especially because it's just a concept that is kind of 0:16:45.920 --> 0:16:49.440 foreign to me. So when the Sawer engine brothers said 0:16:49.840 --> 0:16:53.480 good taste, what did they mean by that? So they 0:16:53.520 --> 0:16:56.520 were very concerned with what the roofs looked like, and 0:16:57.040 --> 0:17:00.360 what the windows looked like, and where the garage, where 0:17:00.360 --> 0:17:03.680 the garages were. So the garages were not and are 0:17:03.800 --> 0:17:07.399 still not allowed to have doors facing the street. So 0:17:07.440 --> 0:17:09.879 if it was an attached garage, met you came up 0:17:09.880 --> 0:17:12.760 your driveway, didn't you turn into the garage with the 0:17:12.800 --> 0:17:16.960 door facing the rear or a detached garage would have 0:17:17.200 --> 0:17:20.000 a door facing sideways. So again you came in your 0:17:20.080 --> 0:17:22.840 driveway instead of going right into your garage, you made 0:17:22.840 --> 0:17:25.760 a right turn or a left turn. Why would they 0:17:26.160 --> 0:17:28.560 are garage doors? And I sare I'm trying I'm trying 0:17:28.600 --> 0:17:34.879 to figure out doors. I mean, in the book, the 0:17:35.000 --> 0:17:38.080 idea of it being a planned community is sort of 0:17:38.119 --> 0:17:42.040 like planned to perfection or it's planned for perfection. And 0:17:42.119 --> 0:17:44.600 when I was reading the book, it made me realize, like, wow, 0:17:44.640 --> 0:17:47.800 that could feel like a really confining thing for some people. 0:17:47.800 --> 0:17:50.479 It gave me this new perspective on it because I 0:17:50.520 --> 0:17:52.119 think that there were a lot of characters in the 0:17:52.119 --> 0:17:54.800 book that did feel confined by that that that created 0:17:54.840 --> 0:17:58.440 a certain amount of pressure. I think that for when 0:17:58.480 --> 0:18:00.800 you grow up here, the idea of this being a 0:18:00.880 --> 0:18:03.639 planned community, it feels that we were doing things in 0:18:03.640 --> 0:18:06.960 a very intentional way. Our planning was to try to 0:18:07.040 --> 0:18:11.120 be an expression of our values in many UM situations. Yeah, 0:18:11.359 --> 0:18:14.400 I feel that it's planned. You appreciate all the little details, 0:18:14.400 --> 0:18:18.360 but you don't feel like, you know, some utopian society, right, Yeah, 0:18:18.400 --> 0:18:22.000 you're you're not in a simulation, right, No, you're not. 0:18:22.240 --> 0:18:24.760 And really, what it gets to is that it's created 0:18:24.800 --> 0:18:29.080 a physical environment that's a really nice place to live. UM. 0:18:29.119 --> 0:18:32.040 Starting to talk a little bit more about little fires everywhere. 0:18:32.440 --> 0:18:36.040 Have you both read the book? Yes? Yes, And what 0:18:36.119 --> 0:18:39.080 were your initial reactions to it? Well, you know, my 0:18:39.200 --> 0:18:41.760 initial reaction at first, I was a little taken it 0:18:41.840 --> 0:18:45.639 back because like it personifies Shaker, So since it's a 0:18:45.680 --> 0:18:48.720 work of literature, it kind of makes us more than 0:18:48.760 --> 0:18:50.840 what we are prepared for this. I went back and 0:18:50.880 --> 0:18:53.840 read parts of the book and on second reading, it 0:18:53.880 --> 0:18:56.760 wasn't so shocking to me because it really is a 0:18:56.800 --> 0:19:00.600 fair portrayal of our community. It's very accurate, wrote about 0:19:00.680 --> 0:19:04.119 the details of the city. Shaker actually has a life 0:19:04.160 --> 0:19:07.199 and a personality, so it feels like a character in 0:19:07.200 --> 0:19:09.960 the book. Yeah, I would agree, and you know, it 0:19:10.000 --> 0:19:13.440 was really fun to read it. The accuracy was really amazing. 0:19:13.520 --> 0:19:15.800 But I also have to say that having gone to 0:19:15.880 --> 0:19:18.200 the high school, the scenes in the high school were 0:19:18.240 --> 0:19:20.480 so incredibly accurate. I felt like I was back in 0:19:20.560 --> 0:19:23.760 high school. I mean, she talked specifically about our backyard 0:19:23.840 --> 0:19:28.080 pick up for garbage, which people from not around the 0:19:28.119 --> 0:19:31.879 east side of Cleveland thinks it's the most bizarre process 0:19:31.920 --> 0:19:36.520 that they ever heard of. It's actually fantastic. It's fantastic, 0:19:36.720 --> 0:19:39.560 but it's part of the value of the community, um, 0:19:39.720 --> 0:19:42.840 not to have garbage on the front lawn, to keep 0:19:42.880 --> 0:19:45.879 your community beautiful. And then were there characters in the 0:19:45.920 --> 0:19:50.000 story that you felt particularly connected to. I was captivated 0:19:50.040 --> 0:19:52.000 by the you know, the high school kids in the 0:19:52.040 --> 0:19:56.560 book because I thought the experience was really genuine. Um. 0:19:56.600 --> 0:19:59.880 I did feel like um Elena was, you know, all 0:20:00.119 --> 0:20:03.040 is the caricature of people here. It was sort of 0:20:03.080 --> 0:20:05.719 an extreme version of people here and her you know, 0:20:05.760 --> 0:20:08.920 her drive for perfection, and you know, like I said 0:20:08.960 --> 0:20:12.040 before that sort of connection between everything being planned and 0:20:12.560 --> 0:20:15.679 you know, perfect and controlling for the messiness. I didn't 0:20:15.720 --> 0:20:18.439 really connect with that, um, but I did think the 0:20:18.560 --> 0:20:22.520 kids and their experience here seemed real and the interactions 0:20:22.600 --> 0:20:26.520 between them, Um. I think it reflected our diverse community 0:20:26.840 --> 0:20:30.040 and that we do have a lot of single parent 0:20:30.160 --> 0:20:33.439 households and Shaker um and part of it is because 0:20:34.520 --> 0:20:37.520 of our housing stock is actually rental stock, be it 0:20:37.640 --> 0:20:40.280 two family homes like the one they lived on Winslow 0:20:40.800 --> 0:20:45.320 or apartment buildings or condos. So even though Shaker Heights 0:20:45.320 --> 0:20:48.439 seems like, you know, the picture of perfection and single 0:20:48.480 --> 0:20:51.720 family home ownership, we are actually you know, have a 0:20:51.760 --> 0:20:55.439 good percentage of rental property in our city, and people 0:20:55.480 --> 0:20:59.840 who are single or single parents or lower income are 0:21:00.000 --> 0:21:02.520 in a lot of those rental properties. So I felt 0:21:02.560 --> 0:21:04.960 that was very real portrayal of the type of people 0:21:04.960 --> 0:21:08.040 that lived here, right, And that is of course where 0:21:08.080 --> 0:21:11.000 we find Mia and Pearl living in the show, in 0:21:11.080 --> 0:21:14.720 the rental property owned by Elena's family on Winslow Road. 0:21:15.000 --> 0:21:18.240 She talked about the book the Winslow Wrote Historic District 0:21:18.320 --> 0:21:20.840 and had every two family home was designed to look 0:21:20.880 --> 0:21:25.840 like a single family home, and that designation. That effort 0:21:26.160 --> 0:21:30.280 was recognized in the nineties by the designation of the 0:21:30.359 --> 0:21:34.040 street as a historic district, to show that smaller homes 0:21:34.359 --> 0:21:37.720 had value and were held to the same Shaker standards 0:21:37.720 --> 0:21:41.040 as larger homes. You know, that's sort of shown as 0:21:41.119 --> 0:21:43.200 one of the ways that you know, Shaker was trying 0:21:43.200 --> 0:21:46.520 to be so perfect, like to pretend I think that, 0:21:46.560 --> 0:21:49.880 you know, we didn't have two family houses or rental housing. 0:21:50.800 --> 0:21:53.120 But the truth of the matter is that they were 0:21:53.200 --> 0:21:56.639 designed that way so that you know, everybody felt like 0:21:56.680 --> 0:21:59.720 they were, you know, living in this really high quality 0:22:00.040 --> 0:22:03.520 housing and as Joyce said, you know, built to the 0:22:03.560 --> 0:22:07.600 same standard, and it was it was done for those reasons. 0:22:07.640 --> 0:22:11.600 It wasn't done to create some sort of facade of perfection. 0:22:11.760 --> 0:22:14.360 So you know that that idea of perfection is used 0:22:14.359 --> 0:22:16.920 in the book, I think really effectively because it sets 0:22:17.000 --> 0:22:22.119 up some interesting tension between characters. But again, I think, 0:22:22.160 --> 0:22:24.400 as I mentioned before, you know, I think in some 0:22:24.480 --> 0:22:28.080 ways for us that idea of you know, planning these 0:22:28.080 --> 0:22:33.000 things out were to achieve some intentional goals, you know 0:22:33.040 --> 0:22:36.480 about about the community. So yeah, I don't know. I 0:22:36.520 --> 0:22:38.399 just thought that when she was talking about Winslow in 0:22:38.400 --> 0:22:40.440 the book, it was kind of interesting because the way 0:22:40.440 --> 0:22:43.280 it was portrayed there, I think wasn't exactly what the 0:22:43.320 --> 0:22:46.080 intention was. That's one of the parts of the book 0:22:46.160 --> 0:22:48.439 and the show that I found so fascinating, as you 0:22:48.480 --> 0:22:53.040 can both understand why and the intention behind designing something 0:22:53.080 --> 0:22:56.320 a certain way wasn't intended to be any sort of 0:22:56.520 --> 0:22:59.280 value judgment on anyone. But then you're like, well, I 0:22:59.320 --> 0:23:03.720 can understand why it may be interpreted in that way 0:23:03.760 --> 0:23:06.240 depending on you know where you're coming at the situation. 0:23:06.440 --> 0:23:09.280