WEBVTT - Ohio's War On Trans People, Pt. 2: From WPATH to the Legislature 0:00:01.720 --> 0:00:04.960 All Zone Media. 0:00:05.519 --> 0:00:07.640 Welcome to dig it up in here. This is me 0:00:07.760 --> 0:00:09.880 a long back with part two of my interview with 0:00:09.960 --> 0:00:13.000 Kay and Lee from Health Liberation Now about the long 0:00:13.039 --> 0:00:16.759 origins of anti trans legislation and policy in Ohio. Let's 0:00:16.760 --> 0:00:20.279 get right into it, Okay. So the next thing I 0:00:20.320 --> 0:00:25.320 wanted to sort of ask about is, so this is 0:00:25.560 --> 0:00:31.920 a very very long running I guess, sort of strategy 0:00:31.960 --> 0:00:37.120 and campaign of sort of right wing or right wing 0:00:37.200 --> 0:00:43.640 and turf de transition like groups advocating for trans healthcare bands. 0:00:44.600 --> 0:00:47.080 And I wanted to I wanted to talk about some 0:00:47.200 --> 0:00:49.279 of the older campaigns that happened, and I wanted to 0:00:49.320 --> 0:00:52.680 talk about specifically some of the campaigns to influence WPATH. 0:00:53.600 --> 0:00:57.240 Oh boy, right, right, So we should we should start 0:00:57.280 --> 0:01:00.560 by explaining to people what WPATH is, because I think 0:01:00.640 --> 0:01:04.000 unless you're trans, you probably don't know. You've probably never 0:01:04.040 --> 0:01:04.920 heard of WPATH. 0:01:06.600 --> 0:01:11.320 It's like World Professional Association for Trans Healthcare, I believe, 0:01:11.400 --> 0:01:11.760 is what it? 0:01:12.400 --> 0:01:13.120 Double check that. 0:01:13.440 --> 0:01:17.240 Yeah, yeah, World Professional Association for Transvender Health formerly known 0:01:17.240 --> 0:01:20.280 as the Harry Benjamin International Gender Dysphoria Alliance. 0:01:20.760 --> 0:01:24.440 They published the standard care that is usually used to 0:01:24.520 --> 0:01:28.600 help inform gender firming care for trans people, and they 0:01:28.640 --> 0:01:33.800 have done various versions of this over the course of decades. 0:01:33.840 --> 0:01:36.280 We are currently on version eight. 0:01:37.120 --> 0:01:43.039 Yeah, and historically they've they're a way of administering trans 0:01:43.040 --> 0:01:45.480 healthcare has involved a lot of like gatekeeping and then 0:01:45.520 --> 0:01:49.160 psychological assessments or requiring people to do a real life test, 0:01:49.200 --> 0:01:52.120 which is like making someone live as the gender they're 0:01:52.120 --> 0:01:54.600 transitioning to for like a year before they can actually 0:01:54.640 --> 0:01:58.760 access medical transition. So I guess like social transition, but 0:01:58.760 --> 0:02:01.040 it's like a test to prove you're a quote unquote 0:02:01.080 --> 0:02:04.240 real trans person or not. And like things have, Yeah, 0:02:04.240 --> 0:02:07.480 things have gotten like somewhat better over time, but there's 0:02:07.480 --> 0:02:12.680 still a lot of medical professionals in and especially like 0:02:12.720 --> 0:02:16.320 therapists in WPATH who like still want to require some 0:02:16.520 --> 0:02:20.120 form of gatekeeping basically still don't trust trans people to know, 0:02:20.520 --> 0:02:22.359 you know, who we are and what we need and 0:02:22.560 --> 0:02:24.160 are like, okay, but we need to make sure they 0:02:24.160 --> 0:02:25.680 get therapy. We need to make sure we do like 0:02:25.919 --> 0:02:28.640 oh the sype tesks, what if they regret it? And 0:02:28.720 --> 0:02:33.720 so yeah, So I used to be a detransitioned radical 0:02:33.720 --> 0:02:36.560 feminist back in the day, and I used to know 0:02:37.280 --> 0:02:41.800 I mean, I knew Maxim Kitty. I was involved in 0:02:41.840 --> 0:02:46.760 that particular group for about like six and a half 0:02:46.840 --> 0:02:50.880 seven years, and I used to have a blog called 0:02:51.240 --> 0:02:54.600 Crash Chaos Cats where I wrote about de transitioning and 0:02:54.720 --> 0:02:57.480 kind of got more more turphy over time. But like 0:02:57.560 --> 0:02:59.880 pretty early into my blog, about like three months or 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:04.000 so in this gender therapist who worked for the San 0:03:04.000 --> 0:03:06.440 Francisco Department of Health like left a comment on my 0:03:06.480 --> 0:03:08.959 blog and was like, I'm interested in talking to de 0:03:09.080 --> 0:03:11.960 transitioned people because I think there are too Like well, 0:03:12.400 --> 0:03:14.760 she have to comment that she was interested in talking 0:03:14.840 --> 0:03:17.120 to de transition people and you know, talking to me, 0:03:17.360 --> 0:03:19.880 and then like we started emailing back and forth, and 0:03:19.919 --> 0:03:22.280 she opened up pretty quickly and said, like there are 0:03:22.320 --> 0:03:24.880 too many f to ms in San Francisco. It was like, 0:03:24.919 --> 0:03:27.120 too many f to ms in the San Francisco Bay Area. 0:03:27.160 --> 0:03:29.160 There are too many like you know, Quoe unquote, female 0:03:29.160 --> 0:03:32.959 people transitioning. 0:03:33.480 --> 0:03:33.680 I know. 0:03:33.800 --> 0:03:35.760 It's just it's like, oh no, It's like, oh wow, 0:03:36.000 --> 0:03:39.560 there's It's like it couldn't possibly be that people are 0:03:39.600 --> 0:03:41.920 just coming to one of the most trans friendly areas 0:03:41.960 --> 0:03:44.720 in the country to transition because they think they'll have 0:03:44.760 --> 0:03:47.240 an easier time there. No, there's got to be too 0:03:47.280 --> 0:03:49.720 many people. I mean, I think somewhere early in the 0:03:49.720 --> 0:03:54.160 conversation she brought up YouTube influencing people towards transitioning. She 0:03:54.200 --> 0:03:56.000 thought there was like, you know, pressure to transition in 0:03:56.040 --> 0:03:59.360 the trans community. So anyway, shit all this stuff, something 0:03:59.360 --> 0:04:01.800 about like you know, people are treating this social problem 0:04:01.840 --> 0:04:07.160 as a medical problem. And I you know, immediately kind 0:04:07.160 --> 0:04:11.040 of turned around and started talking with this other detrans 0:04:11.080 --> 0:04:13.840 radical feminist that I knew, devoras Ahab, and we started 0:04:13.840 --> 0:04:17.440 scheming like, Okay, this like gender therapist who works for 0:04:17.440 --> 0:04:19.560 the San Francisco Department of Health like thinks there's too 0:04:19.560 --> 0:04:23.600 many people transitioning. How do we exploit this, Like how 0:04:23.640 --> 0:04:25.960 can we like use this as an opportunity to like 0:04:26.000 --> 0:04:28.240 cut down on the number of like people transitioning. 0:04:28.600 --> 0:04:31.280 It wasn't just the connection to the Department of Health. 0:04:31.360 --> 0:04:32.719 It was also the w Path. 0:04:32.560 --> 0:04:34.159 Well that that we found out about that I was 0:04:34.160 --> 0:04:36.000 just going to go into that, like eventually, first we 0:04:36.040 --> 0:04:38.120 found out she was working for the Department of Public Health, 0:04:38.160 --> 0:04:39.919 and then we found out that she was in w 0:04:40.080 --> 0:04:42.359 PATH and she actually was like you know, talking to 0:04:42.400 --> 0:04:45.240 the president of w PATH and that she like so 0:04:45.320 --> 0:04:48.479 she made it clear that like, she wanted to use 0:04:49.120 --> 0:04:52.800 the stories of detransitioned people to try to get more 0:04:52.839 --> 0:04:55.000 clinicians to be to take a more cautious approach, And 0:04:55.000 --> 0:04:57.080 she also wanted to try to develop psych assessments that 0:04:57.120 --> 0:05:00.760 could supposedly like weed out you know, who the real 0:05:00.760 --> 0:05:03.240 trans people were, who was going to benefit from transitioning 0:05:03.240 --> 0:05:06.040 and who was supposed to go on to regret transitioning 0:05:06.040 --> 0:05:06.719 and d transition. 0:05:07.040 --> 0:05:09.400 No, the thing is, we. 0:05:09.360 --> 0:05:11.920 Didn't actually believe that you could tell the difference between 0:05:11.920 --> 0:05:15.080 someone who would end up like state transition or because 0:05:15.080 --> 0:05:18.200 we were terms right, we thought everyone could you know, 0:05:18.600 --> 0:05:21.200 be saved by radical feminism, like we and we had 0:05:21.240 --> 0:05:23.800 a bunch of people in our group who thought that 0:05:23.880 --> 0:05:26.480 they were you know, quote unquote true transsexuals, who thought 0:05:26.480 --> 0:05:28.880 they fit the criteria of someone who would have a 0:05:28.920 --> 0:05:32.479 successful transition, you know, until they you know, decided they 0:05:32.480 --> 0:05:35.520 actually were suffering from internalized misogyny or some other kind 0:05:35.560 --> 0:05:40.000 of rad fem explanation for gender dysphoria. And like, the 0:05:40.040 --> 0:05:42.560 thing is, like Devora also lived in the San Francisco 0:05:42.640 --> 0:05:44.840 Bay area, so she actually ended up like meeting up 0:05:44.880 --> 0:05:48.320 with this gender therapist. His name was Julie Graham and 0:05:48.440 --> 0:05:51.560 was like pretty open with her with their anti trans views. 0:05:51.880 --> 0:05:53.680 I mean, she wasn't like completely open with her like 0:05:53.720 --> 0:05:55.640 intentions like oh, I'm going to use this person to 0:05:55.680 --> 0:05:59.039 try to like work towards ending all transition, but she was. 0:05:59.240 --> 0:06:02.040 She did tell you know, Graham, but she didn't think 0:06:02.040 --> 0:06:04.760 anyone really benefited from it. And she told her that, 0:06:04.839 --> 0:06:07.440 you know, she said she knew people who have been 0:06:07.480 --> 0:06:10.800 true transsexuals who had de transitioned and said like lots 0:06:10.839 --> 0:06:14.800 of really awful things about like trans women being fetishists 0:06:14.839 --> 0:06:20.000 and just like you know, all this very anti trans stuff. 0:06:20.120 --> 0:06:21.760 But then you always say, oh, but I think we 0:06:21.760 --> 0:06:23.520 don't have to agree on everything. I think we can 0:06:23.600 --> 0:06:26.279 like work together, and like, you know, this gender therapist 0:06:26.279 --> 0:06:31.640 fell for it like somehow like divorcing all this very 0:06:31.680 --> 0:06:34.200 anti trans stuff, like making a close she was opposed 0:06:34.200 --> 0:06:38.400 to transition, saying like really nasty trans misogynistic shit, like 0:06:38.440 --> 0:06:42.080 none of that was like objectionable enough for Graham not 0:06:42.200 --> 0:06:44.440 to like continue to like work with her, to continue 0:06:44.480 --> 0:06:46.599 to be like, hey, do you want to talk to 0:06:46.600 --> 0:06:50.279 these clinicians about what it is to do transition? And 0:06:50.720 --> 0:06:55.120 you know eventually what happened like that Eventually, this relationship 0:06:55.240 --> 0:06:59.240 with this gender therapist eventually led to a presentation at 0:06:59.240 --> 0:07:04.120 the first us PATH conference by Carrie Callahan, who's like 0:07:04.360 --> 0:07:06.360 she's a kind of an odd figure because she never 0:07:06.400 --> 0:07:09.400 actually identified as like a radical feminist, but she spent 0:07:09.520 --> 0:07:13.000 like years hanging out was like de transitioned radical feminist, 0:07:13.040 --> 0:07:15.240 and she's she's de transitioned, but she's kind of more 0:07:15.240 --> 0:07:19.760 of like a weird liberal who believes in more gatekeeping, 0:07:20.160 --> 0:07:23.960 but she's kind of handy, like we like, like, she 0:07:24.320 --> 0:07:27.200 did this presentation at us PATH and she showed some 0:07:27.360 --> 0:07:31.680 videos of d trans turfs, including myself, like I made 0:07:31.720 --> 0:07:34.560 one of I made a short video, and Max Robinson 0:07:34.600 --> 0:07:38.800 also made one of those videos, and Carrie Stella was 0:07:38.840 --> 0:07:41.120 the third person, and Carry Stella she did like she 0:07:41.240 --> 0:07:43.520 was another like d trans tumbler turf who did this 0:07:43.560 --> 0:07:47.360 survey that still gets like it was a it was 0:07:47.360 --> 0:07:52.240 a survey monkey survey. It's gets cited by like anti 0:07:52.280 --> 0:07:56.880 trans researchers about d transition yeap, which anyways, so we 0:07:57.160 --> 0:08:00.000 so there were three of us who made these short videos. 0:08:00.720 --> 0:08:04.040 Both me and Max Robinson by that point had gone 0:08:04.120 --> 0:08:08.240 like we had hooked up with these weird turfs who 0:08:08.280 --> 0:08:12.160 were deanic witches and taking part in these kind of 0:08:12.240 --> 0:08:18.240 weird neopagan x trans reclaiming femaleness rituals. We had been 0:08:18.280 --> 0:08:22.240 through this kind of like religious neopagan like you know, 0:08:22.320 --> 0:08:27.400 conversion practice rituals, which of course that wasn't something that 0:08:27.440 --> 0:08:29.960 the USP like those are the people, you know, us 0:08:30.040 --> 0:08:33.680 Path knew that, but we hit that. We just you know, 0:08:33.760 --> 0:08:36.040 I talked about how I thought I had transitioned due 0:08:36.040 --> 0:08:39.480 to like internalized misogyny and trauma on all that. So 0:08:39.559 --> 0:08:42.160 I was sort of like spreading a more like kind 0:08:42.200 --> 0:08:47.040 of watered down terf ideology to the folks over at 0:08:47.280 --> 0:08:47.880 us Path. 0:08:48.920 --> 0:08:51.640 This is this is kind of an intentional strategy if 0:08:51.640 --> 0:08:54.520 you think about it, because I want to I want 0:08:54.520 --> 0:08:59.280 to point out something from the the emails about how 0:08:59.559 --> 0:09:05.080 that presentation was made and then given where Carrie Callahan 0:09:05.240 --> 0:09:09.800 noted that her slides were quote unquote decidedly on radical. 0:09:10.080 --> 0:09:13.360 She was trying to talk to therapists as a therapist. 0:09:14.520 --> 0:09:17.280 What that basically meant was she was taking away a 0:09:17.320 --> 0:09:22.360 lot of the more objectionable elements, the things that would 0:09:22.400 --> 0:09:27.360 identify folks like Kai in her previously scrambled state as 0:09:27.480 --> 0:09:30.079 a turf and being completely opposed to transition and stuff 0:09:30.080 --> 0:09:32.920 like that, and then putting on you know, kind of 0:09:32.960 --> 0:09:35.640 suiting them up right, like you know, getting getting them 0:09:35.640 --> 0:09:38.280 in their in their nice clothes, and then presenting them 0:09:38.320 --> 0:09:41.560 to a professional audience who is then able to take 0:09:41.559 --> 0:09:45.079 that information and sort of absorb it into their general 0:09:45.120 --> 0:09:47.400 thinking and then how that's going to play out in 0:09:47.520 --> 0:09:52.280 terms of their changes or implementations of care in the 0:09:52.320 --> 0:09:52.960 long term. 0:09:53.800 --> 0:09:56.120 Yeah, and that's something that like, I there's something that's 0:09:56.200 --> 0:10:03.640 pretty common with like a trendsuh, like anti transactivists across 0:10:03.640 --> 0:10:07.200 the spectrum, Like a lot of people like Clary Cold, 0:10:07.320 --> 0:10:09.280 there's a lot of the sort of like just hardline 0:10:09.360 --> 0:10:14.160 right wingers who didn't talk about stuff like like' like 0:10:14.160 --> 0:10:17.160 some of these people D transition because like the thing 0:10:17.200 --> 0:10:19.040 that they're saying now is the d transition because they 0:10:19.040 --> 0:10:21.079 got a vision from God, right, And they don't start 0:10:21.080 --> 0:10:24.600 with that because I think, right, I mean, I think 0:10:24.640 --> 0:10:26.600 I think there should be more skepticism of people who 0:10:26.600 --> 0:10:28.760 are like I got a vision from the Christian God 0:10:29.520 --> 0:10:32.880 or like the Abrahamic God that told me to do transition. 0:10:32.880 --> 0:10:34.600 I think they should be more skepticism of that. But 0:10:34.640 --> 0:10:37.800 that's not something that like, I don't know if if 0:10:37.840 --> 0:10:40.880 you if you walk into like w Path and you 0:10:40.960 --> 0:10:43.520 tell them I was given to vision from God, They're 0:10:43.559 --> 0:10:47.400 gonna be like, what whereas this kind of stuff? 0:10:47.480 --> 0:10:47.640 Right? 0:10:47.720 --> 0:10:50.319 Like, you know, but the Wpath people like and this 0:10:50.400 --> 0:10:52.160 is something that's kind of complicated about this because I 0:10:52.200 --> 0:10:54.720 think there's I think there's a lot of people who 0:10:54.800 --> 0:10:57.800 see W Path as one of the sort of like 0:10:58.160 --> 0:11:01.079 as one of the organizations that's there to protect trans 0:11:01.080 --> 0:11:02.960 people and their sort of allies in this sort of 0:11:02.960 --> 0:11:06.880 in this battle against handy trends stuff. And it's true 0:11:06.920 --> 0:11:09.360 to a certain extent, but they're also like, this is 0:11:09.400 --> 0:11:14.040 an organization composed of a bunch of CIS doctors, right, 0:11:14.880 --> 0:11:16.760 who can be influenced and manipulated. 0:11:16.880 --> 0:11:23.440 And there's there's trans members as well, a few there's, 0:11:23.480 --> 0:11:24.840 but it also is less powerful. 0:11:24.840 --> 0:11:27.320 Well, it also seems like the trans people who do 0:11:27.679 --> 0:11:30.600 end up like in a high position at Wpath like 0:11:30.880 --> 0:11:34.080 also tend to be like end up believing in gatekeeping 0:11:34.160 --> 0:11:37.360 and restrictions that kind of like internalize the general mindset, 0:11:37.440 --> 0:11:39.240 and so so it's kind of like they're tokens, right. 0:11:39.240 --> 0:11:42.720 It's kind of handy for like CIS medical professionals who 0:11:42.800 --> 0:11:46.240 want to like control trans people. To have some trans 0:11:46.280 --> 0:11:50.600 people as like figureheads, you know, expressing those views gonna 0:11:50.640 --> 0:11:53.120 be like oh well, you know, look this person's saying 0:11:53.120 --> 0:11:59.520 it and they're trans, so like yeah, I mean, I mean, 0:11:59.520 --> 0:12:03.320 like yeah, at the same like that the first US Path, 0:12:03.360 --> 0:12:05.280 I mean, just to kind of show how far things 0:12:05.360 --> 0:12:08.520 still need to come, you know, the same us Path 0:12:08.640 --> 0:12:12.880 where Carrie did her de transition presentation. Ken Zucker was 0:12:12.920 --> 0:12:15.760 there and he got he got protested, I mean, like 0:12:15.760 --> 0:12:17.839 there was a protest against him, and I did. I 0:12:18.280 --> 0:12:21.480 believe they ended up like canceling at least like one 0:12:21.520 --> 0:12:22.520 of his presentations. 0:12:22.559 --> 0:12:24.280 But yeah, so ken Zucker kind of. 0:12:24.360 --> 0:12:28.240 This notorious like conversion therapist to focus primarily on on 0:12:28.320 --> 0:12:31.480 trans youth, Like he had this clinic in uh Canada, 0:12:32.320 --> 0:12:35.760 you know people, I mean and like going after both 0:12:35.800 --> 0:12:38.040 like trans youth and gender non conforming youth. They tried 0:12:38.040 --> 0:12:40.160 to like you know, prevent kids from growing up trance, 0:12:40.200 --> 0:12:43.120 but they also tried to make you know, non conforming 0:12:43.160 --> 0:12:46.200 youth like more gender conforming as well, with the justification, 0:12:46.320 --> 0:12:48.600 oh well, it's easier to change individual than to like 0:12:48.679 --> 0:12:50.360 make society less bigoted. 0:12:52.200 --> 0:12:53.920 Yeah yeah, but. 0:12:53.920 --> 0:12:56.240 Yeah, but he was the type of like he was 0:12:56.280 --> 0:12:58.040 one of the medical professionals that was like you know, 0:12:58.200 --> 0:13:01.400 helping to create like the standards of care for for 0:13:01.520 --> 0:13:03.880 trans youth for decades, and it took a lot of 0:13:03.920 --> 0:13:07.440 work to to change that. And like, yeah, he was 0:13:07.480 --> 0:13:11.480 still given a platform by w Path in like twenty seventeen. 0:13:12.240 --> 0:13:13.200 That's not that long ago. 0:13:14.240 --> 0:13:17.920 Yeah, And that's I don't know, it's this is one 0:13:17.960 --> 0:13:27.680 of these things where like the history of CIS doctors 0:13:27.880 --> 0:13:33.120 treating trans people is really really bleak in ways that 0:13:33.240 --> 0:13:37.680 don't get talked about. And the reason, like one of 0:13:37.679 --> 0:13:39.720 the reasons they don't get talked about from people who 0:13:39.880 --> 0:13:43.840 know about it is that like it's fucking bad. Like 0:13:44.040 --> 0:13:46.920 it's a lot, it's a lot of people getting raped. 0:13:47.120 --> 0:13:49.880 It's like a lot of like I mean, and like 0:13:49.920 --> 0:13:51.960 when we talked about sort of like gatekeeping for healthcare, 0:13:52.080 --> 0:13:54.480 like that was the like one of the original things 0:13:55.240 --> 0:13:56.720 was like you know, one of the things that would 0:13:56.720 --> 0:14:00.440 happen very very commonly was you know it's like okay, 0:14:00.480 --> 0:14:03.000 like if you if you want to get healthcare, like 0:14:03.040 --> 0:14:04.040 you have to let me rape you. 0:14:04.120 --> 0:14:04.320 Like that. 0:14:04.320 --> 0:14:06.840 That's the thing that happened all the fucking time and 0:14:07.120 --> 0:14:09.280 this is the and that's not something that's you know, 0:14:09.320 --> 0:14:11.200 extremely long ago, right, And and you could you could look 0:14:11.240 --> 0:14:13.640 at like modern w path and be like, well, it's 0:14:13.640 --> 0:14:15.760 obviously like yes, it has come a long way from 0:14:15.800 --> 0:14:18.840 that ship. But simultaneously, yeah, like I don't know, that's 0:14:18.880 --> 0:14:20.960 that's something that you know, like there are living people 0:14:20.960 --> 0:14:25.920 who fucking experience that, right and m you know, and 0:14:25.960 --> 0:14:29.480 and when when you when you look at why these 0:14:29.600 --> 0:14:32.680 kinds of like d trans campaigns, why why these just 0:14:32.680 --> 0:14:36.680 like like these sort of d trans anti transactivists have 0:14:36.840 --> 0:14:40.600 been so successful in targeting this it's like, well, you know, 0:14:41.280 --> 0:14:43.160 it's it's it's it's I think I think it's a 0:14:43.440 --> 0:14:46.560 kind of similar thing to like, oh wow, I wonder 0:14:46.640 --> 0:14:49.800 why like the third KKK was successful in this South 0:14:49.880 --> 0:14:53.880 And it's like hmm hmm, maybe there are things happening. 0:14:53.920 --> 0:14:56.520 I mean that that is slightly unfair as being a 0:14:56.520 --> 0:14:59.040 bit unfair to them, But you know, there's there's still 0:14:59.560 --> 0:15:03.800 a lot of these sentiments that there's a lot of 0:15:03.840 --> 0:15:05.880 sort of like transphobic sentiments that are just kind of 0:15:05.920 --> 0:15:09.040 like buried beneath the surface. And I think a lot 0:15:09.040 --> 0:15:11.880 of what we've been seeing over the past you know, 0:15:12.520 --> 0:15:17.400 like like eight ish years. What is time hold on? 0:15:17.520 --> 0:15:17.760 Is that? 0:15:18.880 --> 0:15:19.120 God? 0:15:19.200 --> 0:15:21.600 Okay, I've broken my own rule about not trying to 0:15:21.600 --> 0:15:24.680 do bath life on air. People don't figure out that 0:15:24.720 --> 0:15:27.760 I can't do subtract. But you know, that's a lot 0:15:27.800 --> 0:15:29.400 of what's the topic of the last like eight years 0:15:29.480 --> 0:15:33.640 is that people figured out that there's still a lot 0:15:33.640 --> 0:15:35.960 of sort of lingering anti transcendiment, and they figured out 0:15:36.320 --> 0:15:39.040 where you can target it in ways that are extremely effective. 0:15:39.640 --> 0:15:41.440 We need to go to ads were back in a 0:15:41.480 --> 0:15:55.280 second with less capitalism, and we're back. 0:15:56.640 --> 0:15:59.760 Oh yeah, oh yeah, I mean like yeah, I mean 0:15:59.920 --> 0:16:03.480 I I feel like like in terms of like medical 0:16:03.480 --> 0:16:06.040 professionals who want a gatekeeper what like they they've been 0:16:06.160 --> 0:16:08.720 using you know, d transition and transition regret as like 0:16:08.720 --> 0:16:13.040 an excuse for controlling people for basically since the beginning 0:16:13.240 --> 0:16:15.920 of trans healthcare. I mean that, like, like you know 0:16:16.000 --> 0:16:19.320 that gender therapist Julia Graham, she went looking for us, 0:16:19.520 --> 0:16:22.680 She like went looking for for de trans people to use. 0:16:23.040 --> 0:16:24.680 She's like, Okay, this is how I'm going to like 0:16:25.080 --> 0:16:27.240 cut down on the number of people transitioning. I'm going 0:16:27.280 --> 0:16:29.760 to find some like de transitioned women and then use 0:16:29.800 --> 0:16:33.120 their experiences and you know, that's what she. 0:16:33.160 --> 0:16:33.680 Tried to do. 0:16:33.840 --> 0:16:35.960 And like, and I see this happening with other like 0:16:36.000 --> 0:16:39.040 clinicians too, like kind of going back to Ohio Scott Leibowitz, 0:16:39.640 --> 0:16:44.280 who runs he's a therapist who runs the Thrive Clinic 0:16:45.000 --> 0:16:49.120 in Ohio, and he's another one who has used like 0:16:49.280 --> 0:16:54.680 de transition to justify like more psych assessments. And I 0:16:54.680 --> 0:16:59.400 mean he was actually one of the therapists featured in 0:17:00.520 --> 0:17:03.880 one of the New York Times articles that everyone a 0:17:03.960 --> 0:17:05.840 lot of trends. People got mad at the one by 0:17:06.680 --> 0:17:09.440 Emily Bailon. Was it like I forget what it's called 0:17:10.560 --> 0:17:12.760 the giald for gender therapy, where he's like kind of 0:17:12.840 --> 0:17:16.480 cast is this like this poor moderate position who's caught 0:17:16.520 --> 0:17:19.320 between the religious right that wants to ban all trans 0:17:19.359 --> 0:17:22.880 healthcare and these wacky transactivists who just want to let 0:17:22.920 --> 0:17:26.280 everyone transition. It's like he's just trying to find this 0:17:26.480 --> 0:17:31.200 nuanced approach and make sure that like teenagers don't transition 0:17:31.240 --> 0:17:34.280 and regret it. And you know, yeah, I know he 0:17:34.480 --> 0:17:37.959 was like, I mean, like he was trying to stop 0:17:38.040 --> 0:17:41.720 the healthcare bands in Ohio by pointing out like, oh look, 0:17:41.760 --> 0:17:45.560 you know we're we do comprehensive care. You know, most 0:17:45.680 --> 0:17:52.040 most youth don't go on to medically transition. Like like 0:17:52.200 --> 0:17:54.919 Carrie Callahan was also one of the you know she 0:17:55.280 --> 0:17:58.240 and her testimony, and in some op ed pieces that 0:17:58.280 --> 0:18:02.840 she wrote, she was like praising his broach, calling it cautious. 0:18:03.320 --> 0:18:06.200 You know, people who want to like restrict care implement 0:18:06.200 --> 0:18:09.840 more gatekeeping will use like D transition stories to justify that. 0:18:10.000 --> 0:18:12.560 And then of course, like you know, the religious right 0:18:13.080 --> 0:18:17.000 who wants to completely wipe out all transition healthcare will 0:18:17.000 --> 0:18:19.440 also use like D transition stories as well. 0:18:19.640 --> 0:18:20.600 They'll have their set. 0:18:20.400 --> 0:18:23.440 Of de transition people that they bring out, like lucole 0:18:23.840 --> 0:18:25.240 to testify for the bands. 0:18:26.200 --> 0:18:30.119 Yeah. Leibawitz was also one of the co leads for 0:18:30.480 --> 0:18:34.160 the adolescent chapter in the Standards of Care eight from 0:18:34.320 --> 0:18:37.280 w Path. This was also partially reported on in the 0:18:37.280 --> 0:18:39.960 Basilon piece since they were given exclusive access to the 0:18:40.040 --> 0:18:44.920 draft before the actual final product was officially published. And 0:18:45.000 --> 0:18:50.520 so this particular chapter, especially compared to most of the 0:18:50.560 --> 0:18:53.080 other ones, was it was basically a dumpster fire, Like 0:18:53.119 --> 0:18:56.080 it was a massive rollback in terms of accurate information. 0:18:56.760 --> 0:18:59.800 And part of this was actually captured by a white 0:18:59.800 --> 0:19:03.399 paper that was written by Kelly Winter's a trans woman. 0:19:03.560 --> 0:19:05.159 You know, she's got a PhD and everything like that. 0:19:05.200 --> 0:19:06.720 She's been paying attention to this stuff for a really 0:19:06.760 --> 0:19:09.240 long time, has been working in aspects of wpath and 0:19:09.280 --> 0:19:13.320 trying to like, you know, kind of help reshape some 0:19:13.359 --> 0:19:15.680 of the transphobia that's been happening. 0:19:15.720 --> 0:19:17.919 Yeah. I mean she's been finding back against like how 0:19:18.000 --> 0:19:22.240 trans people are pathologized and you know, against paternalistic yeah 0:19:22.320 --> 0:19:24.160 healthcare for for a very long time now. 0:19:24.280 --> 0:19:27.879 Yeah. So she ended up writing a white paper about 0:19:28.800 --> 0:19:34.159 Version eight with a significant section focusing on the adolescent 0:19:34.240 --> 0:19:39.800 chapter and some of the weird like pseudoscience laundering that 0:19:39.880 --> 0:19:42.760 ended up happening because that chapter not only did it 0:19:42.800 --> 0:19:46.160 include like you know, lip service to things like quote 0:19:46.200 --> 0:19:48.920 unquote rapid onset gender dysphoria, which is a this is 0:19:48.960 --> 0:19:52.320 a bunk pseudo diagnosis that was invented by Lisa Littman 0:19:52.400 --> 0:19:55.200 after surveying a bunch of anti transparents, but then within 0:19:55.359 --> 0:20:00.600 that chapter you also see the laundering of specific studies 0:20:00.600 --> 0:20:07.879 that are focused on predominantly de transitioned women, predominantly gender 0:20:07.880 --> 0:20:11.680 critical or radical feminist. These two papers were Litman twenty 0:20:11.720 --> 0:20:15.960 twenty one, which surveyed a lot of the kind of 0:20:16.000 --> 0:20:19.040 the old D trans turf groups that we had been 0:20:19.119 --> 0:20:22.199 connected with right around twenty seventeen or so, So this 0:20:22.359 --> 0:20:26.680 was before the ROGD paper was published in twenty eighteen. 0:20:26.960 --> 0:20:31.160 But then there was also let's see, there's the Vanderbusch study, 0:20:31.160 --> 0:20:33.679 which I believe that was published in like what twenty 0:20:35.280 --> 0:20:36.879 I don't remember what year that was published in the 0:20:36.960 --> 0:20:41.120 Vanderbusch study. Now, this study was done by Eli vander Busch, 0:20:41.240 --> 0:20:46.800 who is basically post trans the half of a gender 0:20:46.960 --> 0:20:50.400 critical de transition project, and it had a very similar 0:20:50.520 --> 0:20:55.560 kind of like recruitment strategy sometimes an overlapping recruitment pool. 0:20:55.760 --> 0:20:58.720 But the difference is that this happened after the rog 0:20:58.880 --> 0:21:00.639 D paper dropped RGDS. 0:21:00.720 --> 0:21:02.919 That's wrap it on SUT gender dysphoria, which is distinct 0:21:03.000 --> 0:21:05.560 correct to be like all the kids are suddenly Transitioning's 0:21:05.600 --> 0:21:07.919 like no, this is yes, yeah, but that's what that 0:21:07.920 --> 0:21:08.520 acrid is. 0:21:09.920 --> 0:21:13.679 Yep. When that paper dropped, a shift in some of 0:21:13.760 --> 0:21:16.720 the narratives from people who are coming out as de 0:21:16.880 --> 0:21:20.400 transitioned was also starting to be observed. More people were 0:21:20.440 --> 0:21:24.520 starting to call themselves as having experienced RGD. This is 0:21:24.560 --> 0:21:28.440 where the Peak Resilience project came from. And so as 0:21:28.440 --> 0:21:31.159 a result, like this Bandibush study was also pulling in 0:21:31.320 --> 0:21:34.520 aspects of that kind of narrative as well. Right, and 0:21:35.119 --> 0:21:37.920 you know this, none of this actually makes sense. These 0:21:37.960 --> 0:21:40.720 are wildly biased sample pools. It's not going to be 0:21:40.800 --> 0:21:47.119 generalizable to basically any population. It's only focused on like 0:21:47.480 --> 0:21:51.879 a very particular subset of people who end up detransitioning 0:21:51.920 --> 0:21:54.920 and then develop some kind of like political belief it's 0:21:54.960 --> 0:21:58.640 connected to it, right, And then it's being used as 0:21:58.720 --> 0:22:02.960 legitimate data as part of standards of care that is 0:22:03.000 --> 0:22:07.720