1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:04,960 Speaker 1: All Zone Media. 2 00:00:05,519 --> 00:00:07,640 Speaker 2: Welcome to dig it up in here. This is me 3 00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:09,880 Speaker 2: a long back with part two of my interview with 4 00:00:09,960 --> 00:00:13,000 Speaker 2: Kay and Lee from Health Liberation Now about the long 5 00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:16,759 Speaker 2: origins of anti trans legislation and policy in Ohio. Let's 6 00:00:16,760 --> 00:00:20,279 Speaker 2: get right into it, Okay. So the next thing I 7 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:25,320 Speaker 2: wanted to sort of ask about is, so this is 8 00:00:25,560 --> 00:00:31,920 Speaker 2: a very very long running I guess, sort of strategy 9 00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:37,120 Speaker 2: and campaign of sort of right wing or right wing 10 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:43,640 Speaker 2: and turf de transition like groups advocating for trans healthcare bands. 11 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:47,080 Speaker 2: And I wanted to I wanted to talk about some 12 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:49,279 Speaker 2: of the older campaigns that happened, and I wanted to 13 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:52,680 Speaker 2: talk about specifically some of the campaigns to influence WPATH. 14 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:57,240 Speaker 2: Oh boy, right, right, So we should we should start 15 00:00:57,280 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 2: by explaining to people what WPATH is, because I think 16 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:04,000 Speaker 2: unless you're trans, you probably don't know. You've probably never 17 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:04,920 Speaker 2: heard of WPATH. 18 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:11,320 Speaker 3: It's like World Professional Association for Trans Healthcare, I believe, 19 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:11,760 Speaker 3: is what it? 20 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:13,120 Speaker 4: Double check that. 21 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:17,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, World Professional Association for Transvender Health formerly known 22 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:20,280 Speaker 3: as the Harry Benjamin International Gender Dysphoria Alliance. 23 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:24,440 Speaker 4: They published the standard care that is usually used to 24 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 4: help inform gender firming care for trans people, and they 25 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 4: have done various versions of this over the course of decades. 26 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:36,280 Speaker 4: We are currently on version eight. 27 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:43,039 Speaker 3: Yeah, and historically they've they're a way of administering trans 28 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:45,480 Speaker 3: healthcare has involved a lot of like gatekeeping and then 29 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:49,160 Speaker 3: psychological assessments or requiring people to do a real life test, 30 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:52,120 Speaker 3: which is like making someone live as the gender they're 31 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:54,600 Speaker 3: transitioning to for like a year before they can actually 32 00:01:54,640 --> 00:01:58,760 Speaker 3: access medical transition. So I guess like social transition, but 33 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:01,040 Speaker 3: it's like a test to prove you're a quote unquote 34 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:04,240 Speaker 3: real trans person or not. And like things have, Yeah, 35 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:07,480 Speaker 3: things have gotten like somewhat better over time, but there's 36 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:12,680 Speaker 3: still a lot of medical professionals in and especially like 37 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 3: therapists in WPATH who like still want to require some 38 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:20,120 Speaker 3: form of gatekeeping basically still don't trust trans people to know, 39 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:22,359 Speaker 3: you know, who we are and what we need and 40 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:24,160 Speaker 3: are like, okay, but we need to make sure they 41 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:25,680 Speaker 3: get therapy. We need to make sure we do like 42 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:28,640 Speaker 3: oh the sype tesks, what if they regret it? And 43 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 3: so yeah, So I used to be a detransitioned radical 44 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:36,560 Speaker 3: feminist back in the day, and I used to know 45 00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:41,800 Speaker 3: I mean, I knew Maxim Kitty. I was involved in 46 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:46,760 Speaker 3: that particular group for about like six and a half 47 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 3: seven years, and I used to have a blog called 48 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:54,600 Speaker 3: Crash Chaos Cats where I wrote about de transitioning and 49 00:02:54,720 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 3: kind of got more more turphy over time. But like 50 00:02:57,560 --> 00:02:59,880 Speaker 3: pretty early into my blog, about like three months or 51 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:04,000 Speaker 3: so in this gender therapist who worked for the San 52 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 3: Francisco Department of Health like left a comment on my 53 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:08,959 Speaker 3: blog and was like, I'm interested in talking to de 54 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:11,960 Speaker 3: transitioned people because I think there are too Like well, 55 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 3: she have to comment that she was interested in talking 56 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:17,120 Speaker 3: to de transition people and you know, talking to me, 57 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 3: and then like we started emailing back and forth, and 58 00:03:19,919 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 3: she opened up pretty quickly and said, like there are 59 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 3: too many f to ms in San Francisco. It was like, 60 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:27,120 Speaker 3: too many f to ms in the San Francisco Bay Area. 61 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 3: There are too many like you know, Quoe unquote, female 62 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:32,959 Speaker 3: people transitioning. 63 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:33,680 Speaker 4: I know. 64 00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:35,760 Speaker 3: It's just it's like, oh no, It's like, oh wow, 65 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 3: there's It's like it couldn't possibly be that people are 66 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:41,920 Speaker 3: just coming to one of the most trans friendly areas 67 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:44,720 Speaker 3: in the country to transition because they think they'll have 68 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:47,240 Speaker 3: an easier time there. No, there's got to be too 69 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 3: many people. I mean, I think somewhere early in the 70 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:54,160 Speaker 3: conversation she brought up YouTube influencing people towards transitioning. She 71 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 3: thought there was like, you know, pressure to transition in 72 00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:59,360 Speaker 3: the trans community. So anyway, shit all this stuff, something 73 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:01,800 Speaker 3: about like you know, people are treating this social problem 74 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 3: as a medical problem. And I you know, immediately kind 75 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:11,040 Speaker 3: of turned around and started talking with this other detrans 76 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:13,840 Speaker 3: radical feminist that I knew, devoras Ahab, and we started 77 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 3: scheming like, Okay, this like gender therapist who works for 78 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 3: the San Francisco Department of Health like thinks there's too 79 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:23,600 Speaker 3: many people transitioning. How do we exploit this, Like how 80 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 3: can we like use this as an opportunity to like 81 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:28,240 Speaker 3: cut down on the number of like people transitioning. 82 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:31,280 Speaker 4: It wasn't just the connection to the Department of Health. 83 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:32,719 Speaker 4: It was also the w Path. 84 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:34,159 Speaker 3: Well that that we found out about that I was 85 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:36,000 Speaker 3: just going to go into that, like eventually, first we 86 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:38,120 Speaker 3: found out she was working for the Department of Public Health, 87 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:39,919 Speaker 3: and then we found out that she was in w 88 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:42,359 Speaker 3: PATH and she actually was like you know, talking to 89 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:45,240 Speaker 3: the president of w PATH and that she like so 90 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:48,479 Speaker 3: she made it clear that like, she wanted to use 91 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:52,800 Speaker 3: the stories of detransitioned people to try to get more 92 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:55,000 Speaker 3: clinicians to be to take a more cautious approach, And 93 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:57,080 Speaker 3: she also wanted to try to develop psych assessments that 94 00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 3: could supposedly like weed out you know, who the real 95 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:03,240 Speaker 3: trans people were, who was going to benefit from transitioning 96 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:06,040 Speaker 3: and who was supposed to go on to regret transitioning 97 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:06,719 Speaker 3: and d transition. 98 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:09,400 Speaker 1: No, the thing is, we. 99 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:11,920 Speaker 3: Didn't actually believe that you could tell the difference between 100 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:15,080 Speaker 3: someone who would end up like state transition or because 101 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 3: we were terms right, we thought everyone could you know, 102 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:21,200 Speaker 3: be saved by radical feminism, like we and we had 103 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:23,800 Speaker 3: a bunch of people in our group who thought that 104 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:26,480 Speaker 3: they were you know, quote unquote true transsexuals, who thought 105 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 3: they fit the criteria of someone who would have a 106 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:32,479 Speaker 3: successful transition, you know, until they you know, decided they 107 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:35,520 Speaker 3: actually were suffering from internalized misogyny or some other kind 108 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:40,000 Speaker 3: of rad fem explanation for gender dysphoria. And like, the 109 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 3: thing is, like Devora also lived in the San Francisco 110 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:44,840 Speaker 3: Bay area, so she actually ended up like meeting up 111 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 3: with this gender therapist. His name was Julie Graham and 112 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:51,560 Speaker 3: was like pretty open with her with their anti trans views. 113 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:53,680 Speaker 3: I mean, she wasn't like completely open with her like 114 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:55,640 Speaker 3: intentions like oh, I'm going to use this person to 115 00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:59,039 Speaker 3: try to like work towards ending all transition, but she was. 116 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:02,040 Speaker 3: She did tell you know, Graham, but she didn't think 117 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 3: anyone really benefited from it. And she told her that, 118 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 3: you know, she said she knew people who have been 119 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:10,800 Speaker 3: true transsexuals who had de transitioned and said like lots 120 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:14,800 Speaker 3: of really awful things about like trans women being fetishists 121 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:20,000 Speaker 3: and just like you know, all this very anti trans stuff. 122 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:21,760 Speaker 3: But then you always say, oh, but I think we 123 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:23,520 Speaker 3: don't have to agree on everything. I think we can 124 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:26,279 Speaker 3: like work together, and like, you know, this gender therapist 125 00:06:26,279 --> 00:06:31,640 Speaker 3: fell for it like somehow like divorcing all this very 126 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 3: anti trans stuff, like making a close she was opposed 127 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:38,400 Speaker 3: to transition, saying like really nasty trans misogynistic shit, like 128 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:42,080 Speaker 3: none of that was like objectionable enough for Graham not 129 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:44,440 Speaker 3: to like continue to like work with her, to continue 130 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:46,599 Speaker 3: to be like, hey, do you want to talk to 131 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:50,279 Speaker 3: these clinicians about what it is to do transition? And 132 00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:55,120 Speaker 3: you know eventually what happened like that Eventually, this relationship 133 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:59,240 Speaker 3: with this gender therapist eventually led to a presentation at 134 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:04,120 Speaker 3: the first us PATH conference by Carrie Callahan, who's like 135 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:06,360 Speaker 3: she's a kind of an odd figure because she never 136 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:09,400 Speaker 3: actually identified as like a radical feminist, but she spent 137 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 3: like years hanging out was like de transitioned radical feminist, 138 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:15,240 Speaker 3: and she's she's de transitioned, but she's kind of more 139 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:19,760 Speaker 3: of like a weird liberal who believes in more gatekeeping, 140 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:23,960 Speaker 3: but she's kind of handy, like we like, like, she 141 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:27,200 Speaker 3: did this presentation at us PATH and she showed some 142 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:31,680 Speaker 3: videos of d trans turfs, including myself, like I made 143 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:34,560 Speaker 3: one of I made a short video, and Max Robinson 144 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:38,800 Speaker 3: also made one of those videos, and Carrie Stella was 145 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:41,120 Speaker 3: the third person, and Carry Stella she did like she 146 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 3: was another like d trans tumbler turf who did this 147 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:47,360 Speaker 3: survey that still gets like it was a it was 148 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:52,240 Speaker 3: a survey monkey survey. It's gets cited by like anti 149 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 3: trans researchers about d transition yeap, which anyways, so we 150 00:07:57,160 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 3: so there were three of us who made these short videos. 151 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:04,040 Speaker 3: Both me and Max Robinson by that point had gone 152 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:08,240 Speaker 3: like we had hooked up with these weird turfs who 153 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 3: were deanic witches and taking part in these kind of 154 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:18,240 Speaker 3: weird neopagan x trans reclaiming femaleness rituals. We had been 155 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:22,240 Speaker 3: through this kind of like religious neopagan like you know, 156 00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:27,400 Speaker 3: conversion practice rituals, which of course that wasn't something that 157 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 3: the USP like those are the people, you know, us 158 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:33,680 Speaker 3: Path knew that, but we hit that. We just you know, 159 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:36,040 Speaker 3: I talked about how I thought I had transitioned due 160 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:39,480 Speaker 3: to like internalized misogyny and trauma on all that. So 161 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:42,160 Speaker 3: I was sort of like spreading a more like kind 162 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 3: of watered down terf ideology to the folks over at 163 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:47,880 Speaker 3: us Path. 164 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:51,640 Speaker 4: This is this is kind of an intentional strategy if 165 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 4: you think about it, because I want to I want 166 00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:59,280 Speaker 4: to point out something from the the emails about how 167 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:05,080 Speaker 4: that presentation was made and then given where Carrie Callahan 168 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:09,800 Speaker 4: noted that her slides were quote unquote decidedly on radical. 169 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:13,360 Speaker 4: She was trying to talk to therapists as a therapist. 170 00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:17,280 Speaker 4: What that basically meant was she was taking away a 171 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:22,360 Speaker 4: lot of the more objectionable elements, the things that would 172 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:27,360 Speaker 4: identify folks like Kai in her previously scrambled state as 173 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:30,079 Speaker 4: a turf and being completely opposed to transition and stuff 174 00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:32,920 Speaker 4: like that, and then putting on you know, kind of 175 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:35,640 Speaker 4: suiting them up right, like you know, getting getting them 176 00:09:35,640 --> 00:09:38,280 Speaker 4: in their in their nice clothes, and then presenting them 177 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:41,560 Speaker 4: to a professional audience who is then able to take 178 00:09:41,559 --> 00:09:45,079 Speaker 4: that information and sort of absorb it into their general 179 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:47,400 Speaker 4: thinking and then how that's going to play out in 180 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 4: terms of their changes or implementations of care in the 181 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:52,960 Speaker 4: long term. 182 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:56,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's something that like, I there's something that's 183 00:09:56,200 --> 00:10:03,640 Speaker 2: pretty common with like a trendsuh, like anti transactivists across 184 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:07,200 Speaker 2: the spectrum, Like a lot of people like Clary Cold, 185 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:09,280 Speaker 2: there's a lot of the sort of like just hardline 186 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:14,160 Speaker 2: right wingers who didn't talk about stuff like like' like 187 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:17,160 Speaker 2: some of these people D transition because like the thing 188 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:19,040 Speaker 2: that they're saying now is the d transition because they 189 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:21,079 Speaker 2: got a vision from God, right, And they don't start 190 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:24,600 Speaker 2: with that because I think, right, I mean, I think 191 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:26,600 Speaker 2: I think there should be more skepticism of people who 192 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:28,760 Speaker 2: are like I got a vision from the Christian God 193 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:32,880 Speaker 2: or like the Abrahamic God that told me to do transition. 194 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:34,600 Speaker 2: I think they should be more skepticism of that. But 195 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:37,800 Speaker 2: that's not something that like, I don't know if if 196 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:40,880 Speaker 2: you if you walk into like w Path and you 197 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:43,520 Speaker 2: tell them I was given to vision from God, They're 198 00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:47,400 Speaker 2: gonna be like, what whereas this kind of stuff? 199 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 1: Right? 200 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:50,319 Speaker 2: Like, you know, but the Wpath people like and this 201 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 2: is something that's kind of complicated about this because I 202 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:54,720 Speaker 2: think there's I think there's a lot of people who 203 00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:57,800 Speaker 2: see W Path as one of the sort of like 204 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:01,079 Speaker 2: as one of the organizations that's there to protect trans 205 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:02,960 Speaker 2: people and their sort of allies in this sort of 206 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:06,880 Speaker 2: in this battle against handy trends stuff. And it's true 207 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:09,360 Speaker 2: to a certain extent, but they're also like, this is 208 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:14,040 Speaker 2: an organization composed of a bunch of CIS doctors, right, 209 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:16,760 Speaker 2: who can be influenced and manipulated. 210 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:23,440 Speaker 4: And there's there's trans members as well, a few there's, 211 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:24,840 Speaker 4: but it also is less powerful. 212 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:27,320 Speaker 3: Well, it also seems like the trans people who do 213 00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:30,600 Speaker 3: end up like in a high position at Wpath like 214 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:34,080 Speaker 3: also tend to be like end up believing in gatekeeping 215 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:37,360 Speaker 3: and restrictions that kind of like internalize the general mindset, 216 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:39,240 Speaker 3: and so so it's kind of like they're tokens, right. 217 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:42,720 Speaker 3: It's kind of handy for like CIS medical professionals who 218 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 3: want to like control trans people. To have some trans 219 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:50,600 Speaker 3: people as like figureheads, you know, expressing those views gonna 220 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:53,120 Speaker 3: be like oh well, you know, look this person's saying 221 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:59,520 Speaker 3: it and they're trans, so like yeah, I mean, I mean, 222 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:03,320 Speaker 3: like yeah, at the same like that the first US Path, 223 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:05,280 Speaker 3: I mean, just to kind of show how far things 224 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:08,520 Speaker 3: still need to come, you know, the same us Path 225 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:12,880 Speaker 3: where Carrie did her de transition presentation. Ken Zucker was 226 00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 3: there and he got he got protested, I mean, like 227 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:17,839 Speaker 3: there was a protest against him, and I did. I 228 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:21,480 Speaker 3: believe they ended up like canceling at least like one 229 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:22,520 Speaker 3: of his presentations. 230 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:24,280 Speaker 4: But yeah, so ken Zucker kind of. 231 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:28,240 Speaker 3: This notorious like conversion therapist to focus primarily on on 232 00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:31,480 Speaker 3: trans youth, Like he had this clinic in uh Canada, 233 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:35,760 Speaker 3: you know people, I mean and like going after both 234 00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:38,040 Speaker 3: like trans youth and gender non conforming youth. They tried 235 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:40,160 Speaker 3: to like you know, prevent kids from growing up trance, 236 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:43,120 Speaker 3: but they also tried to make you know, non conforming 237 00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:46,200 Speaker 3: youth like more gender conforming as well, with the justification, 238 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:48,600 Speaker 3: oh well, it's easier to change individual than to like 239 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:50,360 Speaker 3: make society less bigoted. 240 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:53,920 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, but. 241 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:56,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, but he was the type of like he was 242 00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:58,040 Speaker 3: one of the medical professionals that was like you know, 243 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:01,400 Speaker 3: helping to create like the standards of care for for 244 00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:03,880 Speaker 3: trans youth for decades, and it took a lot of 245 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:07,440 Speaker 3: work to to change that. And like, yeah, he was 246 00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 3: still given a platform by w Path in like twenty seventeen. 247 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:13,200 Speaker 4: That's not that long ago. 248 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:17,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's I don't know, it's this is one 249 00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:27,680 Speaker 2: of these things where like the history of CIS doctors 250 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:33,120 Speaker 2: treating trans people is really really bleak in ways that 251 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:37,680 Speaker 2: don't get talked about. And the reason, like one of 252 00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:39,720 Speaker 2: the reasons they don't get talked about from people who 253 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:43,840 Speaker 2: know about it is that like it's fucking bad. Like 254 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:46,920 Speaker 2: it's a lot, it's a lot of people getting raped. 255 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:49,880 Speaker 2: It's like a lot of like I mean, and like 256 00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:51,960 Speaker 2: when we talked about sort of like gatekeeping for healthcare, 257 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:54,480 Speaker 2: like that was the like one of the original things 258 00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:56,720 Speaker 2: was like you know, one of the things that would 259 00:13:56,720 --> 00:14:00,440 Speaker 2: happen very very commonly was you know it's like okay, 260 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:03,000 Speaker 2: like if you if you want to get healthcare, like 261 00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 2: you have to let me rape you. 262 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:04,320 Speaker 4: Like that. 263 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:06,840 Speaker 2: That's the thing that happened all the fucking time and 264 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:09,280 Speaker 2: this is the and that's not something that's you know, 265 00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:11,200 Speaker 2: extremely long ago, right, And and you could you could look 266 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:13,640 Speaker 2: at like modern w path and be like, well, it's 267 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:15,760 Speaker 2: obviously like yes, it has come a long way from 268 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:18,840 Speaker 2: that ship. But simultaneously, yeah, like I don't know, that's 269 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 2: that's something that you know, like there are living people 270 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:25,920 Speaker 2: who fucking experience that, right and m you know, and 271 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:29,480 Speaker 2: and when when you when you look at why these 272 00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:32,680 Speaker 2: kinds of like d trans campaigns, why why these just 273 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:36,680 Speaker 2: like like these sort of d trans anti transactivists have 274 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:40,600 Speaker 2: been so successful in targeting this it's like, well, you know, 275 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:43,160 Speaker 2: it's it's it's it's I think I think it's a 276 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:46,560 Speaker 2: kind of similar thing to like, oh wow, I wonder 277 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:49,800 Speaker 2: why like the third KKK was successful in this South 278 00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 2: And it's like hmm hmm, maybe there are things happening. 279 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:56,520 Speaker 2: I mean that that is slightly unfair as being a 280 00:14:56,520 --> 00:14:59,040 Speaker 2: bit unfair to them, But you know, there's there's still 281 00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:03,800 Speaker 2: a lot of these sentiments that there's a lot of 282 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:05,880 Speaker 2: sort of like transphobic sentiments that are just kind of 283 00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:09,040 Speaker 2: like buried beneath the surface. And I think a lot 284 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:11,880 Speaker 2: of what we've been seeing over the past you know, 285 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 2: like like eight ish years. What is time hold on? 286 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:17,760 Speaker 3: Is that? 287 00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:19,120 Speaker 1: God? 288 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:21,600 Speaker 2: Okay, I've broken my own rule about not trying to 289 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:24,680 Speaker 2: do bath life on air. People don't figure out that 290 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:27,760 Speaker 2: I can't do subtract. But you know, that's a lot 291 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 2: of what's the topic of the last like eight years 292 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:33,640 Speaker 2: is that people figured out that there's still a lot 293 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:35,960 Speaker 2: of sort of lingering anti transcendiment, and they figured out 294 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:39,040 Speaker 2: where you can target it in ways that are extremely effective. 295 00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:41,440 Speaker 2: We need to go to ads were back in a 296 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:55,280 Speaker 2: second with less capitalism, and we're back. 297 00:15:56,640 --> 00:15:59,760 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, oh yeah, I mean like yeah, I mean 298 00:15:59,920 --> 00:16:03,480 Speaker 3: I I feel like like in terms of like medical 299 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:06,040 Speaker 3: professionals who want a gatekeeper what like they they've been 300 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:08,720 Speaker 3: using you know, d transition and transition regret as like 301 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:13,040 Speaker 3: an excuse for controlling people for basically since the beginning 302 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:15,920 Speaker 3: of trans healthcare. I mean that, like, like you know 303 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:19,320 Speaker 3: that gender therapist Julia Graham, she went looking for us, 304 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:22,680 Speaker 3: She like went looking for for de trans people to use. 305 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:24,680 Speaker 3: She's like, Okay, this is how I'm going to like 306 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:27,240 Speaker 3: cut down on the number of people transitioning. I'm going 307 00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:29,760 Speaker 3: to find some like de transitioned women and then use 308 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:33,120 Speaker 3: their experiences and you know, that's what she. 309 00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:33,680 Speaker 4: Tried to do. 310 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 3: And like, and I see this happening with other like 311 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:39,040 Speaker 3: clinicians too, like kind of going back to Ohio Scott Leibowitz, 312 00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 3: who runs he's a therapist who runs the Thrive Clinic 313 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:49,120 Speaker 3: in Ohio, and he's another one who has used like 314 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 3: de transition to justify like more psych assessments. And I 315 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:59,400 Speaker 3: mean he was actually one of the therapists featured in 316 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:03,880 Speaker 3: one of the New York Times articles that everyone a 317 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:05,840 Speaker 3: lot of trends. People got mad at the one by 318 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:09,440 Speaker 3: Emily Bailon. Was it like I forget what it's called 319 00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:12,760 Speaker 3: the giald for gender therapy, where he's like kind of 320 00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:16,480 Speaker 3: cast is this like this poor moderate position who's caught 321 00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:19,320 Speaker 3: between the religious right that wants to ban all trans 322 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:22,880 Speaker 3: healthcare and these wacky transactivists who just want to let 323 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:26,280 Speaker 3: everyone transition. It's like he's just trying to find this 324 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:31,200 Speaker 3: nuanced approach and make sure that like teenagers don't transition 325 00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:34,280 Speaker 3: and regret it. And you know, yeah, I know he 326 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:37,959 Speaker 3: was like, I mean, like he was trying to stop 327 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:41,720 Speaker 3: the healthcare bands in Ohio by pointing out like, oh look, 328 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 3: you know we're we do comprehensive care. You know, most 329 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:52,040 Speaker 3: most youth don't go on to medically transition. Like like 330 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:54,919 Speaker 3: Carrie Callahan was also one of the you know she 331 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:58,240 Speaker 3: and her testimony, and in some op ed pieces that 332 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:02,840 Speaker 3: she wrote, she was like praising his broach, calling it cautious. 333 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:06,200 Speaker 3: You know, people who want to like restrict care implement 334 00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:09,840 Speaker 3: more gatekeeping will use like D transition stories to justify that. 335 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:12,560 Speaker 3: And then of course, like you know, the religious right 336 00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 3: who wants to completely wipe out all transition healthcare will 337 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:19,440 Speaker 3: also use like D transition stories as well. 338 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:20,600 Speaker 4: They'll have their set. 339 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:23,440 Speaker 3: Of de transition people that they bring out, like lucole 340 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:25,240 Speaker 3: to testify for the bands. 341 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:30,119 Speaker 4: Yeah. Leibawitz was also one of the co leads for 342 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:34,160 Speaker 4: the adolescent chapter in the Standards of Care eight from 343 00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:37,280 Speaker 4: w Path. This was also partially reported on in the 344 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:39,960 Speaker 4: Basilon piece since they were given exclusive access to the 345 00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:44,920 Speaker 4: draft before the actual final product was officially published. And 346 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:50,520 Speaker 4: so this particular chapter, especially compared to most of the 347 00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:53,080 Speaker 4: other ones, was it was basically a dumpster fire, Like 348 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:56,080 Speaker 4: it was a massive rollback in terms of accurate information. 349 00:18:56,760 --> 00:18:59,800 Speaker 4: And part of this was actually captured by a white 350 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:03,399 Speaker 4: paper that was written by Kelly Winter's a trans woman. 351 00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:05,159 Speaker 4: You know, she's got a PhD and everything like that. 352 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:06,720 Speaker 4: She's been paying attention to this stuff for a really 353 00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:09,240 Speaker 4: long time, has been working in aspects of wpath and 354 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:13,320 Speaker 4: trying to like, you know, kind of help reshape some 355 00:19:13,359 --> 00:19:15,680 Speaker 4: of the transphobia that's been happening. 356 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:17,919 Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean she's been finding back against like how 357 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:22,240 Speaker 3: trans people are pathologized and you know, against paternalistic yeah 358 00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:24,160 Speaker 3: healthcare for for a very long time now. 359 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:27,879 Speaker 4: Yeah. So she ended up writing a white paper about 360 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:34,159 Speaker 4: Version eight with a significant section focusing on the adolescent 361 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:39,800 Speaker 4: chapter and some of the weird like pseudoscience laundering that 362 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:42,760 Speaker 4: ended up happening because that chapter not only did it 363 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:46,160 Speaker 4: include like you know, lip service to things like quote 364 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:48,920 Speaker 4: unquote rapid onset gender dysphoria, which is a this is 365 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:52,320 Speaker 4: a bunk pseudo diagnosis that was invented by Lisa Littman 366 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:55,200 Speaker 4: after surveying a bunch of anti transparents, but then within 367 00:19:55,359 --> 00:20:00,600 Speaker 4: that chapter you also see the laundering of specific studies 368 00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:07,879 Speaker 4: that are focused on predominantly de transitioned women, predominantly gender 369 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:11,680 Speaker 4: critical or radical feminist. These two papers were Litman twenty 370 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:15,960 Speaker 4: twenty one, which surveyed a lot of the kind of 371 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:19,040 Speaker 4: the old D trans turf groups that we had been 372 00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:22,199 Speaker 4: connected with right around twenty seventeen or so, So this 373 00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:26,680 Speaker 4: was before the ROGD paper was published in twenty eighteen. 374 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:31,160 Speaker 4: But then there was also let's see, there's the Vanderbusch study, 375 00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:33,679 Speaker 4: which I believe that was published in like what twenty 376 00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:36,879 Speaker 4: I don't remember what year that was published in the 377 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:41,120 Speaker 4: Vanderbusch study. Now, this study was done by Eli vander Busch, 378 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:46,800 Speaker 4: who is basically post trans the half of a gender 379 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:50,400 Speaker 4: critical de transition project, and it had a very similar 380 00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:55,560 Speaker 4: kind of like recruitment strategy sometimes an overlapping recruitment pool. 381 00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:58,720 Speaker 4: But the difference is that this happened after the rog 382 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:00,639 Speaker 4: D paper dropped RGDS. 383 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:02,919 Speaker 2: That's wrap it on SUT gender dysphoria, which is distinct 384 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 2: correct to be like all the kids are suddenly Transitioning's 385 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:07,919 Speaker 2: like no, this is yes, yeah, but that's what that 386 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:08,520 Speaker 2: acrid is. 387 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:13,679 Speaker 4: Yep. When that paper dropped, a shift in some of 388 00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:16,720 Speaker 4: the narratives from people who are coming out as de 389 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:20,400 Speaker 4: transitioned was also starting to be observed. More people were 390 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:24,520 Speaker 4: starting to call themselves as having experienced RGD. This is 391 00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:28,440 Speaker 4: where the Peak Resilience project came from. And so as 392 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:31,159 Speaker 4: a result, like this Bandibush study was also pulling in 393 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:34,520 Speaker 4: aspects of that kind of narrative as well. Right, and 394 00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:37,920 Speaker 4: you know this, none of this actually makes sense. These 395 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:40,720 Speaker 4: are wildly biased sample pools. It's not going to be 396 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:47,119 Speaker 4: generalizable to basically any population. It's only focused on like 397 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:51,879 Speaker 4: a very particular subset of people who end up detransitioning 398 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:54,920 Speaker 4: and then develop some kind of like political belief it's 399 00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:58,640 Speaker 4: connected to it, right, And then it's being used as 400 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:02,960 Speaker 4: legitimate data as part of standards of care that is 401 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:07,720 Speaker 4: supposed to be like, yeah, yes, it's just it's particulars. 402 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:11,439 Speaker 3: Well, it is ridiculous, But I don't feel like like 403 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:14,159 Speaker 3: I feel like the medical professionals who want more gatekeeping 404 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:16,399 Speaker 3: like they just need some de transitioned. 405 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:17,280 Speaker 4: People to justify it. 406 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:20,199 Speaker 3: They don't really care if like the people ended up 407 00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:25,000 Speaker 3: de transitioning because they like found God or radical feminism 408 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:29,240 Speaker 3: or like or you know, our old group. A lot 409 00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:31,080 Speaker 3: of the detrendsmen I think already mentioned this before, Like 410 00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:32,480 Speaker 3: a lot of us like talked about how like we 411 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:35,640 Speaker 3: had the same kind of dysphoria than any other transperson 412 00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:39,080 Speaker 3: had and we're still fighting it off. That was a 413 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:41,360 Speaker 3: thing too. Most of the people I knew still had 414 00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:45,159 Speaker 3: gender dysphoria, and we're just finding like quote unquote alternative 415 00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:47,320 Speaker 3: ways to cope with it. And it's just like, I 416 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:49,199 Speaker 3: don't I mean a lot of people were trying to 417 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:55,359 Speaker 3: like talk themselves out of like transitioning again. So I 418 00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:57,560 Speaker 3: don't think the issue here is like, oh, transition didn't 419 00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:00,000 Speaker 3: work for these people. It's more like they internalized the idea. 420 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:02,960 Speaker 3: You know that no one said transition, but again, like 421 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:07,200 Speaker 3: people don't. It's like people don't. Yeah, they only care 422 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:10,879 Speaker 3: about using de transition in order to reduce the number 423 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:13,480 Speaker 3: of trans people or prevent transition. They don't care about 424 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:17,680 Speaker 3: transition or d transition that you know results from transphobia, 425 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:22,240 Speaker 3: either internalizing it, yeah, internalizing it an anti trans ideology, 426 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:27,119 Speaker 3: or you know, not being able to access transition because 427 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:30,520 Speaker 3: of you know, living in a transphobic society, coming from 428 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:32,840 Speaker 3: a transphobic family, you know, having to go into the 429 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:34,919 Speaker 3: closet to find a job, that kind of stuff. Like 430 00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:37,959 Speaker 3: it's never about like, yeah, it's never about preventing due 431 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:42,600 Speaker 3: transition that results from transphobia. It's just about finding excuse 432 00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:44,440 Speaker 3: to control us and our access to healthcare. 433 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:48,800 Speaker 2: There's this perverse incentive structure here too, because you know, 434 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:53,960 Speaker 2: these doctors are trying to find you know, they're trying 435 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:57,359 Speaker 2: to find something that gives them more ability to do gatekeeping. 436 00:23:57,520 --> 00:23:59,920 Speaker 2: So it's it's it's in their interest to in order 437 00:23:59,920 --> 00:24:02,119 Speaker 2: to in order to preserve and increase their own power, 438 00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:05,360 Speaker 2: to find this kind of stuff, which means that they're 439 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 2: not actually doing their job. They're going out and trying 440 00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:13,480 Speaker 2: to find ways to like they're trying to find, you know, 441 00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:17,760 Speaker 2: whatever whatever like absolutely dog shit studies or like just 442 00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:22,119 Speaker 2: stuff that like probably should be considered medical malpractice. Like 443 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:24,360 Speaker 2: they don't really care because again it's it's it's it's 444 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:26,400 Speaker 2: just this like loop because that's the thing that they need. 445 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:30,720 Speaker 2: So they'll they'll find whatever, like crank pseudo scientists just 446 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:32,479 Speaker 2: like cranking this stuff out and they'll use it. 447 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:35,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, And also, I mean I also feel 448 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:37,080 Speaker 3: like this is one of the reasons why there aren't 449 00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:40,960 Speaker 3: more resources for people who end up transitioning too, because 450 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:42,360 Speaker 3: they want to be able to use as a scar 451 00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:45,200 Speaker 3: scare story, right because like really, I mean, like okay, 452 00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:47,960 Speaker 3: like you know, Ig transitioned and like it was hard 453 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:51,680 Speaker 3: because there weren't as much like resources and support out there, 454 00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:53,520 Speaker 3: and I mean a lot of the supports I did 455 00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 3: find were crappy because they were coming from urfs. But 456 00:24:57,119 --> 00:24:59,480 Speaker 3: it's like it's really just kind of like transitioning again 457 00:24:59,520 --> 00:24:59,760 Speaker 3: and then a. 458 00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:00,399 Speaker 4: Lot of ways. 459 00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:03,520 Speaker 3: So it's like, well, if you can create resources to 460 00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:06,520 Speaker 3: make transitioning easier, you could definitely create a lot of 461 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:09,880 Speaker 3: similar resources to make de transitioning easier. 462 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:10,800 Speaker 4: But that's not there. 463 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:13,280 Speaker 3: And I feel like like one of the reasons that 464 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:15,520 Speaker 3: is not there is because if like, if it's easy 465 00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:18,000 Speaker 3: for someone to do transition, get what they need to 466 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:20,440 Speaker 3: have a good life, and just move on, then it's 467 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:22,720 Speaker 3: hard to use those stories, like you'll have less people 468 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:24,880 Speaker 3: who want to, like, you know who you can kind 469 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:27,800 Speaker 3: of like, uh, you know, indoctrinate into these anti trans 470 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:30,200 Speaker 3: ideologies and then use them, you know, as part of 471 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:32,440 Speaker 3: the anti trans movement. But also just like I mean, 472 00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:35,240 Speaker 3: if it's not scary anymore, if you just feel like, okay, 473 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:37,760 Speaker 3: like this is just an issue of like making people, 474 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:39,800 Speaker 3: making sure people get the supports that they need so 475 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:41,520 Speaker 3: they can just get on with their lives. Like we 476 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:43,840 Speaker 3: just treat it as a practical problem. That needs to 477 00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:48,440 Speaker 3: be solved instead of using it to feed a trans panic. Like, yeah, 478 00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:51,680 Speaker 3: it's just like the the there's actually like less reasons 479 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:55,040 Speaker 3: for gatekeeping. I mean, I feel like like creating like 480 00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:57,679 Speaker 3: basically you're kind of like creating a safety dit for 481 00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:00,359 Speaker 3: in case, like you know, in case something unexpect did 482 00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:03,560 Speaker 3: or negative happens. So you're like, okay, well, if you 483 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:06,520 Speaker 3: transition and things you end up changing your mind or 484 00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:09,080 Speaker 3: things don't work out the way you think they would, 485 00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:11,840 Speaker 3: here's all these supports you can turn to. So I 486 00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:14,920 Speaker 3: feel like that's kind of a better long term thing 487 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:17,640 Speaker 3: to work for, is like okay, like make sure there 488 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:21,040 Speaker 3: are supports for people no matter how their transition turns out, 489 00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:24,679 Speaker 3: like if then including you know, de transitioning, or if 490 00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:28,480 Speaker 3: people like you know, face health complications, like make sure 491 00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:30,800 Speaker 3: that there's like supports in place for that. Don't use 492 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:32,480 Speaker 3: that as an excuse for gatekeeping. 493 00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:36,600 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's unfortunately one that I know all too well 494 00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:37,480 Speaker 4: the consequences of. 495 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:44,239 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think I think also the everything that's 496 00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:50,800 Speaker 2: going on is there's just like all of these groups, 497 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:55,119 Speaker 2: see both trans people and people do transitions as just 498 00:26:55,680 --> 00:27:03,240 Speaker 2: not like like they're you know, they're they're they're violating 499 00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:06,679 Speaker 2: the content categorical imperative in the sense that they're not 500 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:09,600 Speaker 2: treating people as actual humans or treating them as objects 501 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:13,120 Speaker 2: or tools. Yes, and once you do, when you do that, right, 502 00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:15,960 Speaker 2: like everything suddenly you know, like who cares what happens 503 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:17,760 Speaker 2: to these people afterwards, because you don't think of them 504 00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:20,040 Speaker 2: as people. You think of them as just a thing 505 00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:21,720 Speaker 2: that you're using to do another thing. 506 00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:24,520 Speaker 3: Mm hm oh yeah. 507 00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:28,280 Speaker 4: Absolutely. The unfortunate thing is that unfort like this can 508 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:31,720 Speaker 4: also happen within the community as well. When they are 509 00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:34,240 Speaker 4: trying to advocate for certain kinds of things, people will 510 00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:36,840 Speaker 4: end up using each other, Oh yeah, as tools in 511 00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:39,359 Speaker 4: order to meet their own personal goals. 512 00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:43,080 Speaker 2: Speaking of goals, make it your goal to uh buy 513 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:57,680 Speaker 2: these products and services. Oh no, we're back. 514 00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:01,919 Speaker 4: So let's go back a little bit to about like 515 00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:05,680 Speaker 4: twenty nineteen. Some of the bills are starting to go out. 516 00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:07,840 Speaker 4: We had the test balloon bill that was happening in 517 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:11,720 Speaker 4: South Dakota that eventually turned into twenty twenty. Right in 518 00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:18,160 Speaker 4: this timeframe, an organizing call went out on the Well, 519 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:21,639 Speaker 4: the site previously known as Twitter by Kerrie Callahan that 520 00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:26,320 Speaker 4: was looking for people that wanted to advocate for better 521 00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:31,639 Speaker 4: healthcare outcomes for trans and d trans people. Right during 522 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:34,840 Speaker 4: that time frame, I had been starting to go off 523 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:38,200 Speaker 4: of my hormones. I started going off of them a 524 00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:41,720 Speaker 4: few months prior to that point, and in that time frame, 525 00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:49,080 Speaker 4: I started experiencing certain types of what seemed like progressive 526 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:55,200 Speaker 4: vision loss. Right. My brain, I sometimes have a tendency 527 00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:59,600 Speaker 4: to panic, I guess, especially when it comes to things 528 00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:04,360 Speaker 4: like health anxiety. My brain started to make the internal connection, 529 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:11,360 Speaker 4: did going off of my hormones cause my vision to change? Right? 530 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:15,200 Speaker 4: And unfortunately, as I started to talk about this online 531 00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:17,920 Speaker 4: and the likes, I was getting a lot of encouragement 532 00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:23,360 Speaker 4: from other folks, usually like you know, gender critical, anti transparents, 533 00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 4: that kind of thing. That yes, absolutely like the hormones 534 00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:31,400 Speaker 4: were causing me to have vision loss right and it 535 00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:34,720 Speaker 4: was really impacting my ability to function in my daily life. Right. 536 00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:37,400 Speaker 4: But another part of me at the same time as 537 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:41,840 Speaker 4: all of this was starting to feel like I was 538 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:45,960 Speaker 4: starting to feel aspects of regret and anger, which made 539 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:49,200 Speaker 4: me want to do something. This is a very common narrative, right. 540 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:52,000 Speaker 4: It made me want to do something so that other 541 00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:54,560 Speaker 4: people would not end up in the situation that I 542 00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:57,840 Speaker 4: was in and so I answered this call. Probably not 543 00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:00,440 Speaker 4: the best of decisions that I could have made for myself, 544 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:03,080 Speaker 4: but I decided to go ahead and do so answered 545 00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:06,920 Speaker 4: Kerry Calhoun's call, Yes, Yes, I decided to go ahead 546 00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:10,160 Speaker 4: and say, yes, I will, I will connect in with this. 547 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:12,160 Speaker 4: I would like to be a part of it. I 548 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:15,000 Speaker 4: had to apparently apologize for talking to the wrong clinician 549 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:17,600 Speaker 4: in public first, but. 550 00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:22,400 Speaker 3: Had to apologize for talking to Jack Turbin because he 551 00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:26,040 Speaker 3: was too affirming and she was mad that you would 552 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:29,880 Speaker 3: speak to him because I was too willing to respect 553 00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:30,840 Speaker 3: fans kids. 554 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:34,440 Speaker 4: Yes, yes, because he prescribed puberty blockers. I was talking 555 00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:36,479 Speaker 4: to the wrong clinician and therefore this was not allowed. 556 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:42,680 Speaker 4: But anyway, so eventually the actual like organizing committee starts 557 00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:47,800 Speaker 4: with four people. So it was me, Carrie Corina Cone 558 00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:51,000 Speaker 4: who was later testifying in favor of some of these bills, 559 00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:54,560 Speaker 4: and then Grace Leedinsky Smith. There were some other people 560 00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:58,360 Speaker 4: that were in and out, but they ended up dropping 561 00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:02,720 Speaker 4: off very early on. So it was predominantly the four 562 00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:05,120 Speaker 4: of us that ended up being the actual formal board 563 00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:08,400 Speaker 4: at any point in the early stages, right, And so 564 00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:10,920 Speaker 4: we started to draft a lot of this stuff. But like, 565 00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:17,760 Speaker 4: over I was starting to wonder about two things, right, Like, 566 00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:24,320 Speaker 4: after some exchanges with other board members about who it 567 00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:27,920 Speaker 4: is that we should be predominantly outreaching. Should it be 568 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:31,280 Speaker 4: clinicians or should it be people that are actually impacted, 569 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:35,400 Speaker 4: people who have gone through gender affirming care, regardless of 570 00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:39,960 Speaker 4: how they identify themselves currently, Like, what is our main priority? 571 00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:43,840 Speaker 4: The other board member at the time wanted to focus 572 00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:47,720 Speaker 4: more on the clinician route. I did not. My focus 573 00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:50,800 Speaker 4: was on if we are going to be doing a 574 00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:55,080 Speaker 4: quote unquote patient advocacy organization, we should be focusing on 575 00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:59,280 Speaker 4: the people that we are supposed to be connected to, right, Like, 576 00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:03,320 Speaker 4: those are who we are. Why would we want to 577 00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:06,040 Speaker 4: put more power into the hands of the clinicians that 578 00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:09,680 Speaker 4: supposedly harmed people. That doesn't make any sense, right? And then, 579 00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:14,240 Speaker 4: like you know, as these wheels were starting to churn, 580 00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:18,320 Speaker 4: another part of me was starting to worry that over time, 581 00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:24,320 Speaker 4: the trajectory of this organization at that point was going 582 00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:28,880 Speaker 4: to start advocating for more restrictions or full out bands 583 00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:31,800 Speaker 4: later on in the future, possibly even partnering up with 584 00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:35,240 Speaker 4: some of the some of the more right wing groups. 585 00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:41,080 Speaker 4: I believe I Actually, I think I worried about them 586 00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:45,360 Speaker 4: becoming like the gender care equivalent to Wolf, which was 587 00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:50,640 Speaker 4: unfortunately pretty accurate, I would say in terms of my 588 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:53,600 Speaker 4: my concern that was that was part of my my 589 00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:57,360 Speaker 4: formal resignation to the board. I stepped down as vice 590 00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:00,520 Speaker 4: president about five months after I had joined on because 591 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:04,680 Speaker 4: I could not see any I could not see any 592 00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:10,360 Speaker 4: recourse within the group for for changing directions. I couldn't 593 00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:14,760 Speaker 4: be party to them hurting other people, even if I 594 00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:17,120 Speaker 4: felt hurt at the time, and so I ended up 595 00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:23,640 Speaker 4: taking a step back. My vision was still having problems, 596 00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:29,240 Speaker 4: but you know what ended up making that a lot easier. Actually, 597 00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:33,000 Speaker 4: it's funny. This is not something that was recommended to 598 00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:36,760 Speaker 4: me by anybody that I had been talking to about 599 00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:40,680 Speaker 4: this stuff, who had been more exposed to anti trans 600 00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:47,320 Speaker 4: rhetoric like I. I talked to blind people. Yeah, I 601 00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:50,720 Speaker 4: ended up talking to to blind people. I connected with 602 00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:55,000 Speaker 4: folks from the National Federation for the Blind. It was 603 00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:57,560 Speaker 4: a group that was recommended to me by somebody I 604 00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:00,800 Speaker 4: knew from a from a past job that I had 605 00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:04,040 Speaker 4: because she was the daughter of somebody who went blind 606 00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:07,040 Speaker 4: later in life due to a genetic condition, and he 607 00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:09,600 Speaker 4: was a member of the NFB right, he was part 608 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:12,640 Speaker 4: of the federation, and so that was her recommendation to me. 609 00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:15,759 Speaker 4: I hadn't reached out at the time. My brain was 610 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:22,239 Speaker 4: too focused in doing this weird we got to save 611 00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:28,759 Speaker 4: people kind of bullshit direction. But like, eventually, after I'm 612 00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:32,120 Speaker 4: like taking a step back from all of this stuff, 613 00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:36,600 Speaker 4: I decided to go ahead and pursue that suggestion from 614 00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:38,880 Speaker 4: you know, this random person in my life, not from 615 00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:41,360 Speaker 4: anybody I had been connected to in terms of organizing. 616 00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:48,399 Speaker 4: And when when I went there, like the only thing 617 00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:51,920 Speaker 4: that I ever got was acceptance. There was no questioning. 618 00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:58,520 Speaker 4: Nobody asked what happened, Nobody asked like any sort of 619 00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:02,560 Speaker 4: details about like my my personal views. Like I didn't 620 00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:04,720 Speaker 4: have to express any forms of like, you know, sorrow 621 00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:06,759 Speaker 4: or regret or anything like that. A lot of it 622 00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:10,040 Speaker 4: was focused on, Okay, these are the issues that you're 623 00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:13,040 Speaker 4: currently dealing with. Here are some of the things that 624 00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:16,120 Speaker 4: you can work on to make your life easier. Here 625 00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:19,320 Speaker 4: are some supports that you can find within your states 626 00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:22,239 Speaker 4: if you need to do things like, you know, get 627 00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:25,400 Speaker 4: certain kinds of mobility training using a white cane and 628 00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:28,160 Speaker 4: the likes. If you need to learn how to use braille, 629 00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:31,280 Speaker 4: all of that fun stuff. Here. Here's even like specific 630 00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:34,040 Speaker 4: doctors that you could try to go to who can 631 00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:38,640 Speaker 4: like really assess what's going on with your vision. Because 632 00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:40,920 Speaker 4: before that point I did not have access to specialists. 633 00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:43,480 Speaker 4: I was living in like you know, rural main There 634 00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:45,440 Speaker 4: was there was nothing there. I would have had to 635 00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:47,920 Speaker 4: travel like over three hours to go to Boston for 636 00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:50,719 Speaker 4: me to be able to see as specialist. Instead, like 637 00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:53,680 Speaker 4: they were able to point me to people who had 638 00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:59,879 Speaker 4: specializations in like retinal conditions, and so when I went there, 639 00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:03,200 Speaker 4: you know, they they did their usual tests. They ruled 640 00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:06,799 Speaker 4: out some things that were known to run in my 641 00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:12,640 Speaker 4: family actually, but they did ultimately decide that like my 642 00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:18,000 Speaker 4: retinas are not processing light correctly and that it's actually 643 00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:24,600 Speaker 4: likely genetic, so unrelated to horrormone youth conrelated to hormone usage. 644 00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:26,640 Speaker 4: In fact, you know, as I was going through that 645 00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:30,960 Speaker 4: process and I started to reflect on what my vision 646 00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:35,640 Speaker 4: was like before I even took hormones, let alone stopping it, 647 00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:40,320 Speaker 4: like certain symptoms were actually there, just at a much 648 00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:45,680 Speaker 4: lower degree. Since like at least my teens, I already 649 00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:50,200 Speaker 4: had difficulties with my night vision. I had difficulties with 650 00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:57,040 Speaker 4: color contrasts. Sometimes my light sensitivity wasn't nearly as bad. 651 00:36:57,160 --> 00:37:01,360 Speaker 4: Usually it was only with migrains. But time, like you know, 652 00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:04,719 Speaker 4: that started to break out more where like even just 653 00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:07,480 Speaker 4: like you know, there being too much sunlight was painful 654 00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:11,480 Speaker 4: for me. But like some of this stuff, it definitely 655 00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:15,920 Speaker 4: predated when I started my transition. But because I wasn't 656 00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:20,680 Speaker 4: really given space to actually unpack any of this stuff, 657 00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:26,640 Speaker 4: I didn't really have the ability to make those connections. Instead, 658 00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:31,399 Speaker 4: what happened was, you know, I join in on this 659 00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:36,000 Speaker 4: organizing board. I connect in with three other people that 660 00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:42,319 Speaker 4: were looking to advocate in very particular directions. And like, 661 00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:48,320 Speaker 4: my story was not something that was meant to get support, 662 00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:52,000 Speaker 4: My story was something that was meant to scare people. 663 00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:56,440 Speaker 4: I was also nominated as the spokesperson, which meant I 664 00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:59,840 Speaker 4: would have had the responsibility to do things like, you know, 665 00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:03,279 Speaker 4: respond to the press or give sound quotes or whatever. Right, 666 00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:10,319 Speaker 4: I gave certain kinds of descriptions over to a like 667 00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:13,719 Speaker 4: a Democratic candidate that we had been scheduled to meet 668 00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:17,839 Speaker 4: with Ryan Starzik at the time down in Arizona, and 669 00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:20,440 Speaker 4: you know, give the whole spiel, right, you know, A 670 00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:25,080 Speaker 4: visible trans person with a story that for a lot 671 00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:29,960 Speaker 4: of people who, like most people, are very connected to 672 00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:33,759 Speaker 4: their senses, whether that's hearing, vision, touch, or whatever, they 673 00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:39,200 Speaker 4: can't conceptualize a life without them, and so it terrifies them. Right, 674 00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:44,200 Speaker 4: But like that doesn't actually help the person be able 675 00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:48,080 Speaker 4: to get to a point where this is a livable life, 676 00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:50,799 Speaker 4: it's even a frame life. There are certain things that 677 00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:52,839 Speaker 4: I can do that other people can't do. I can 678 00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:56,520 Speaker 4: navigate inside the apartment without having the lights on because 679 00:38:56,560 --> 00:38:58,480 Speaker 4: I know where everything is mapped out of my head, 680 00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:00,520 Speaker 4: and I can rely on touch. I can pour myself 681 00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:02,759 Speaker 4: a glass of water and not have to worry about 682 00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:05,520 Speaker 4: its spilling because I can feel where it like goes up. 683 00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:10,640 Speaker 4: But that's not really something that like we're not even 684 00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:14,400 Speaker 4: allowed to think about. We're not even allowed to think about. Like, Okay, 685 00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:19,719 Speaker 4: so if this thing happens to you and there's documented 686 00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:23,640 Speaker 4: evidence of it, not like something that's completely imagined, like 687 00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:26,600 Speaker 4: my brain decided it was, here's what we can do 688 00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:30,040 Speaker 4: to help m's. That's the kind of things that people 689 00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:33,120 Speaker 4: really need to be able to access, right, you know, 690 00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:34,840 Speaker 4: if something happens to you, these are the things that 691 00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:38,239 Speaker 4: you can do to be able to work through this 692 00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:41,440 Speaker 4: and live a more comfortable life in the way that 693 00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:44,000 Speaker 4: you are happy with. But I don't really see any 694 00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:49,839 Speaker 4: of that happening to be perfectly frank well, no, Like, 695 00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:52,400 Speaker 4: I'm also thinking back about the like the standards of 696 00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:55,759 Speaker 4: care A because like, you know, there's this you know, 697 00:39:56,960 --> 00:40:00,600 Speaker 4: inclusion of aspects of regret and de transition and stuff 698 00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:03,040 Speaker 4: like that into things like the adolescent chapter. But you 699 00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:08,600 Speaker 4: know what, they don't include a chapter for de transition support. Yes, no, 700 00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:09,880 Speaker 4: because they're not serious about that. 701 00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:11,239 Speaker 3: I guess they just want to use it as like 702 00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:15,600 Speaker 3: a scary story and a justification for controlling people exact 703 00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:17,480 Speaker 3: like you know, putting them through a bunch of assessments 704 00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:19,960 Speaker 3: or something like that. Like again, I very much believe 705 00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:23,520 Speaker 3: that there's a connection between like a desire for more 706 00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:26,560 Speaker 3: gatekeeping and psych assessments control over trans people and not 707 00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:28,000 Speaker 3: having support for like. 708 00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:31,359 Speaker 4: Do transition for retransition either, because there's not, like. 709 00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:36,040 Speaker 3: I feel like there's even less talk or resources for 710 00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:39,319 Speaker 3: people end up retransitioning after de transitioning because no one's 711 00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:41,920 Speaker 3: trying to figure out like, oh, like the idea that 712 00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:44,719 Speaker 3: do transition could just be temporary or that a lot 713 00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:47,400 Speaker 3: of people, you know, go on to retransition later on 714 00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:50,120 Speaker 3: or just confirmed for them that they really are trans 715 00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:52,440 Speaker 3: Like that's also a thing that you know, just people 716 00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:53,439 Speaker 3: don't really want to touch. 717 00:40:54,200 --> 00:41:00,560 Speaker 2: It's one of these things where you know, like pain 718 00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:04,440 Speaker 2: is useful to these people, but like the actual like 719 00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:08,839 Speaker 2: people experiencing the pain aren't. And you know, and that 720 00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:11,480 Speaker 2: has its own perversion center cycle because like, yeah, if 721 00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:13,640 Speaker 2: you want to harvest scare stories, you don't want people 722 00:41:13,719 --> 00:41:19,280 Speaker 2: getting actual help. And that is an absolutely terrible, insensive 723 00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:23,160 Speaker 2: structure for making sure people actually get the care and 724 00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:28,720 Speaker 2: the help that they need. And it absolutely sucks. 725 00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:32,840 Speaker 3: Just yeah, oh I remember realizing, like when I was 726 00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:36,000 Speaker 3: still a deed triens radical feminist, like realizing that a 727 00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:40,000 Speaker 3: whole lot of like people who wanted to restrict or 728 00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:43,760 Speaker 3: eliminate transition like like head an investment in my suffering 729 00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:46,440 Speaker 3: because you know, I was, and I was struggling a 730 00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:49,640 Speaker 3: lot like I do. It can really be hard to 731 00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:52,560 Speaker 3: do transition like right now, because there are you know, 732 00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:55,000 Speaker 3: there is a lack of resources and support and understanding. 733 00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:57,040 Speaker 3: But the thing is, like I you know, I kind 734 00:41:57,040 --> 00:41:59,480 Speaker 3: of slowly realized over time. It's just like, oh, all 735 00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:01,880 Speaker 3: these people to use my story, but they need me 736 00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:04,200 Speaker 3: to suffer for it to like work out for them. 737 00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:06,840 Speaker 3: Like they don't have any interest in making my life easier, 738 00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:08,840 Speaker 3: Like they don't have any interest in like helping me 739 00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:11,440 Speaker 3: like create a good life and being happy. They want me, 740 00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:14,239 Speaker 3: they really do want me to be ruined and miserable 741 00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:17,319 Speaker 3: forever because they can use like that's more valuable to them, 742 00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:19,880 Speaker 3: Like my suffering matters more than my happiness to a 743 00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:21,360 Speaker 3: lot of these people. Yeah, Like you know, that was 744 00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:23,120 Speaker 3: definitely one of those moments where I was like, what, 745 00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:26,239 Speaker 3: like one of those things that eventually, you know, let 746 00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:28,279 Speaker 3: me to get disillusion with the whole thing and be like, 747 00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:31,560 Speaker 3: you know what I get myself involved with. But yeah, yeah, 748 00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:34,760 Speaker 3: it's just it's it is really like sick and perverse. 749 00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:39,839 Speaker 3: How how anti trans people like use suffering, use both 750 00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:43,120 Speaker 3: transcendi trans people suffering for their own agenda. 751 00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:44,320 Speaker 4: It's awful. 752 00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:50,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think this is something that you know, 753 00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:53,680 Speaker 2: there's this is the sort of it's also that there's 754 00:42:53,719 --> 00:42:55,799 Speaker 2: a broader set of incentives here too, which is the 755 00:42:55,840 --> 00:42:58,040 Speaker 2: sort of the structure of the media market, right which 756 00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:02,520 Speaker 2: at the media that's like the like you know, the 757 00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:06,760 Speaker 2: the entire media broadly, like you know, like if it bleeds, 758 00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:08,799 Speaker 2: it leads right, Like that's that's that's the that's the 759 00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:12,640 Speaker 2: actual media model of you know, everything from like your 760 00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:15,839 Speaker 2: like shitty local right wing tabloid to like the New 761 00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:21,120 Speaker 2: York Times, right. And the way that this plays out 762 00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:23,960 Speaker 2: for trans people and for de trans people is that 763 00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:26,520 Speaker 2: like the thing that these people that you know, the 764 00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:30,359 Speaker 2: journalists also are looking for is suffering, like they don't 765 00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:34,680 Speaker 2: really care, you know, like they like, none of these 766 00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:38,279 Speaker 2: people ever report stories that are just like, hey, like 767 00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:40,680 Speaker 2: I went to a gender clinic and it was great, 768 00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:43,600 Speaker 2: Like nobody's gonna like, I don't think anyone's going to 769 00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:45,719 Speaker 2: read that, Like I would read that because you know 770 00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:47,919 Speaker 2: that's you know, that's great, but like like they don't 771 00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:50,560 Speaker 2: care about that there's there's no sort of sensationalism there. 772 00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:55,439 Speaker 2: The sensationalism is like, you know, then this is why 773 00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:58,920 Speaker 2: you get like the Washington Post interviewing this light. You know, 774 00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:02,279 Speaker 2: like these people who are just like, oh, like I 775 00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:04,520 Speaker 2: was I worked at a gender clinic, but I was 776 00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:07,880 Speaker 2: secretly doing evil or like you know, or or or 777 00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:09,399 Speaker 2: you get all of and this is why a lot 778 00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:13,319 Speaker 2: of even protrans like media coverage is about things like 779 00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:16,680 Speaker 2: suicide rates and about things like you know, like how 780 00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:20,879 Speaker 2: like how likely you are to die if you don't 781 00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:24,000 Speaker 2: get the healthcare thing you need, because it's it's the 782 00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:26,359 Speaker 2: same as CenTra structure. It's the thing, the thing that's 783 00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:31,640 Speaker 2: useful to sell to people is suffering and that I 784 00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:35,359 Speaker 2: don't know what the solution is to that, because I mean, 785 00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:39,120 Speaker 2: I don't know have have media that's not based on profit, 786 00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:45,600 Speaker 2: I guess, but like, you know, to decommodify the news. 787 00:44:48,520 --> 00:44:50,360 Speaker 2: But that's one of these things where it's like, you know, 788 00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:53,560 Speaker 2: like as long as long as like every single like 789 00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:56,760 Speaker 2: shitty local newspaper is making all of their money from 790 00:44:56,800 --> 00:45:00,600 Speaker 2: like crime scare stories, they're not going to report. They're 791 00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:02,279 Speaker 2: not going to You're not gonna get accurate reporting about 792 00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:05,520 Speaker 2: police because they need the police to like give the 793 00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:07,440 Speaker 2: like feed them all of these shitty crime stories. 794 00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:07,640 Speaker 4: Right. 795 00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:09,160 Speaker 2: And this is the same thing here where it's like 796 00:45:09,160 --> 00:45:13,040 Speaker 2: you're not going to get actual good reporting about trans 797 00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:19,160 Speaker 2: people and about people who do transition because nobody actually 798 00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:22,440 Speaker 2: cares about that because the incentive structure is just suffering, 799 00:45:22,440 --> 00:45:27,600 Speaker 2: and that trickles down through through the healthcare system and 800 00:45:27,719 --> 00:45:32,840 Speaker 2: through you know through the legislative system, and it trickles 801 00:45:32,840 --> 00:45:36,080 Speaker 2: down through social networks and what support networks exists and 802 00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:44,160 Speaker 2: don't exist. And it's a absolutely like if you were 803 00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:46,880 Speaker 2: just to like ask someone, how do you want a 804 00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:50,920 Speaker 2: society to be run? Zero people would answer, we want 805 00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:53,200 Speaker 2: it to be based on the production of suffering. And 806 00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:57,719 Speaker 2: yet we have done this, but it doesn't have to 807 00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:00,080 Speaker 2: be like this. To sort of finish that, Dave a 808 00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:04,120 Speaker 2: great quote, the ultimate hidden truth of the world is 809 00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:06,719 Speaker 2: that it is something that we make and could just 810 00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:10,280 Speaker 2: as easily make differently. So let's go build a world 811 00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:13,680 Speaker 2: that's safe for trans people. This has been It could 812 00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:15,920 Speaker 2: happen here. You can find more of Lee and Kai's 813 00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:18,560 Speaker 2: work at Health Liberation Now dot com. I recommend you 814 00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:22,040 Speaker 2: go do it. It is great and go and make 815 00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:23,000 Speaker 2: the world otherwise. 816 00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:32,720 Speaker 1: It could happen here as a production of cool Zone Media. 817 00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:35,640 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 818 00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:37,880 Speaker 1: cool zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the 819 00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:41,360 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 820 00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:43,840 Speaker 1: You can find sources for It could Happen here, updated 821 00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:46,080 Speaker 1: monthly at Coolzonemedia dot com. 822 00:46:46,080 --> 00:46:46,960 Speaker 2: Slash sources. 823 00:46:47,160 --> 00:46:48,000 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening,