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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and welcome to Stuff. I've never

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Speaker 1: told your production of I Heart Radios how stuff works,

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Speaker 1: and yes I am still solo. If you've ever wondered

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Speaker 1: this peak behind the podcast curtains how we do these.

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Speaker 1: We usually record them in batches, so this is just

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Speaker 1: me today. But that is appropriate because the episode I

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Speaker 1: want to bring back for this classic is can You

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Speaker 1: Be Friends with an ex? Um? So this is something

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Speaker 1: that's been on my mind a lot because, as you know,

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Speaker 1: because I bring it up all the time, I am

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Speaker 1: getting ready to go to Dragon Connor possibly have already

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Speaker 1: gone at this point by the time you hear it,

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Speaker 1: and I know that I will see my X there.

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Speaker 1: He's staying in the same hotel as I him, and

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Speaker 1: it's just the law you have to run into your ex.

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Speaker 1: So I he's somebody. When we broke up, and I've

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Speaker 1: talked about this before on the show, it was the

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Speaker 1: most mature breakup, and I feel like there's no ill will.

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Speaker 1: There's there's some kind of like sadness at what could

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Speaker 1: have been, maybe, but it's still hard. We still meet

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Speaker 1: up because we work in the same building too, so

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Speaker 1: there's that um. We still meet up occasionally. And talk

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Speaker 1: about what's going on in our lives. And we still

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Speaker 1: text each other and check in on each other, but

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Speaker 1: it's we haven't made the jump to friendship yet, and

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Speaker 1: it's a jump that I would like to make because um,

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Speaker 1: he's so fun. He was a lovely human being, is

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Speaker 1: a lovely human being. Hopefully it didn't stop right when

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Speaker 1: we started. We stopped dating, so I've just been curious

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Speaker 1: about it and wondering if there is there is a

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Speaker 1: way to make this work. So enter this classic episode

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Speaker 1: for anyone else who's in my situation. Hopefully here are

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Speaker 1: some answers for us. I hope you enjoy. Welcome to

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Speaker 1: Stuff Mom Never told you from how Stuff Works dot Com. Hello,

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Speaker 1: and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen and I'm Caroline.

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Speaker 1: And Caroline. I feel like today's question can you be

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Speaker 1: friends with an ex? Really takes us full circle because

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Speaker 1: there's a there's a nice little trajectory in our podcast

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Speaker 1: library where we've asked questions like can men and women

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Speaker 1: be friends? What happens in your brain during a breakup?

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Speaker 1: Are rebound relationships healthy? And now we're coming full circle

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Speaker 1: background can you be friends with an X? And we're

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Speaker 1: just leading our listeners through life by the hand and

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Speaker 1: maybe through our own romantic trials and tribulations. Um. And

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Speaker 1: since we have such a brilliant audience out there, I

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Speaker 1: decided that before we came in to do this podcast,

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Speaker 1: we should take a listener poll and see what folks thought.

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Speaker 1: And uh, it's a little split, Okay. On Facebook, we've

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Speaker 1: got folks saying, yes, you can definitely be friends, it

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Speaker 1: just takes a little time. Uh. For instance, Wren says,

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Speaker 1: I'm really good friends with more than one x. It

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Speaker 1: helps more when both parties move on and they are

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Speaker 1: supportive of the other's new relationship. I'm a photographer and

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Speaker 1: a photographed more than one ex boyfriend's weddings, So not

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Speaker 1: only can you be friends, you can also get a

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Speaker 1: little cash off of those exes. But then again, we

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Speaker 1: also have Amanda Ruth who says, I don't know, I've

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Speaker 1: tried it before and it didn't work out, but maybe

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Speaker 1: it works for other people. I don't know. Um. And

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Speaker 1: then Joel who just succinctly says nope. Yeah. Paul agrees

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Speaker 1: with him and just says no. Annie says no, can't

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Speaker 1: be done. Other people say that it's like a zombie relationship.

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Speaker 1: Lorena says that you can manage to be friends, probably

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Speaker 1: if you were friends before the romantic relationship. However, it's

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Speaker 1: never the same, never the same total zombie relationship. And

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Speaker 1: you can have all the factors of how long did

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Speaker 1: it last, how did it end? Was there cheating? Um? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: lots of factors. Yeah, but let's let's take a step back,

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Speaker 1: um and think about why we even consider this issue

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Speaker 1: of being friends with an X to begin with. And

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Speaker 1: it might have to do with just how enormous a

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Speaker 1: role that love plays in our lives. Basically, we're all SAPs,

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Speaker 1: nostalgic SAPs. A lot of us are incredibly nostalgic. Because

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Speaker 1: Neil Rose conducted a study at Northwestern University. He's a

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Speaker 1: marketing for Esser. The study came out in March two

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Speaker 1: thousand eleven, and he found that romance is the most

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Speaker 1: common source of regret for American adults. Yeah, and of

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Speaker 1: course there's some other ones trailing behind, like oh, I

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Speaker 1: don't know, family, education, career, money, parenting, but romance is

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Speaker 1: the big one. And he said that basically it boils

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Speaker 1: down demographics. Interesting women of them reported romance regrets versus

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Speaker 1: only of men. Yeah, it seems like women kind of

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Speaker 1: skewed the curve with this. Yeah, men, men tended to

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Speaker 1: have more work oriented regrets and more education regrets. Now,

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Speaker 1: the single people he talked to, UM in this phone survey,

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Speaker 1: we're the most likely to have romance regrets because I'm

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Speaker 1: sure if you're sitting there, you know, not dating anybody

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Speaker 1: at the moment, you might be thinking back, like, oh,

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Speaker 1: the one that got away, or I shouldn't have let

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Speaker 1: that relationship dissolved. Yeah, it can be much easier to

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Speaker 1: have romantic regrets when you're not romantic with someone else.

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Speaker 1: That's a little bit of a no brainer. UM. And

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Speaker 1: people who regretted events that they didn't act on held

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Speaker 1: onto that regret over a longer period compared to people

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Speaker 1: who went ahead and took the leap but it didn't

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Speaker 1: work out. Now. I also thought this was interesting though.

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Speaker 1: From a two thousand to Public Opinion Strategies National survey,

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Speaker 1: UMT of adults said that there was run relationship in

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Speaker 1: their past they wish they could continue the one that

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Speaker 1: got away. And even though you know that Northwestern University survey,

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Speaker 1: women were the one. Uh, the women were the ones

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Speaker 1: who were all romantically regretting everything. But in this survey,

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Speaker 1: more than half of single men versus just a quarter

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Speaker 1: of single women were the ones who were sad about

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Speaker 1: the one that got away. So maybe these are just

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Speaker 1: different types of regrets. Maybe you're like, oh, I shouldn't

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Speaker 1: have done X y Z, and this is more like, oh,

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Speaker 1: but Jimmy, Jimmy got away, Jimmy or in this case

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Speaker 1: it would be Susie Susie got away, or or Jimmy

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Speaker 1: or Jimmy. I don't know, Jeez, I don't know. Uh.

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Speaker 1: But the point is, for all the Jimmy's and Susie's

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Speaker 1: out there, everybody, you know, a lot of us have

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Speaker 1: romantic regrets. So perhaps, you know, friendship with an X

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Speaker 1: is a way to sort of temper those regrets maintain

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Speaker 1: some kind of relationship. But the question is is that

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Speaker 1: friendship possible? And there is not a ton of research

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Speaker 1: on it, and a lot of it is dated, but uh, overall, yes,

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Speaker 1: the answer is yes. Studies find that a lot of

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Speaker 1: us at least attempt to stay friends. Yeah, but there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of conditions on this. Oh yeah, you kind

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Speaker 1: of have to be getting something out of it. It

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Speaker 1: has to be worth it and you can't. Well, we'll

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Speaker 1: get into the whole like the rules and regulations of

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Speaker 1: being friends with your ex. But you know you you

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Speaker 1: can't be basically hoping that you will get back together,

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Speaker 1: otherwise I won't be successful. Uh. An overview in the

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Speaker 1: Social Psychology I Newsletter sites study that found that romantic

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Speaker 1: relationships that no longer fulfill the romantic needs of the

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Speaker 1: partners may transform into friendship, but the resources exchanged must

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Speaker 1: maintain value, So you have to be getting something out

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Speaker 1: of it, whether it's free movie tickets or just a

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Speaker 1: good friendship or whatever. Yeah, and that makes sense because

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Speaker 1: you know, perhaps you need some kind of resource to

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Speaker 1: motivate you to get over the slight of breaking up. Um.

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Speaker 1: There's also this is dated, but nevertheless in nineteen seventies

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Speaker 1: six study which found that friendship was more likely when

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Speaker 1: the breakup was mutual or male initiated, So maybe women

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Speaker 1: have an easier time perhaps bridging that friendship gap, um,

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Speaker 1: if they've been rejected. In nine, study found that being

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Speaker 1: friends prior to romantic relationship was a significant predictor of

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Speaker 1: post breakup friendship. Makes sense, you liked each other before

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Speaker 1: as platonic friends, or maybe not so platonic and you

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Speaker 1: were just harboring secret plans to tell them that you

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Speaker 1: were in love with them at some point. But either way,

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Speaker 1: you know that that Well, the two thousand to studies

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Speaker 1: sort of echoes the one from this was in the

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Speaker 1: general personal relationships, the idea of social exchange was covered. Uh.

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Speaker 1: They surveyed college students and found the participants who received

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Speaker 1: more resources reported higher levels of friendship quality with their

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Speaker 1: ex Now, the barriers to friendship quality they found were

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Speaker 1: lack of support from your friends or family. So if

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Speaker 1: your friends were like, stop it, don't be friends with

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Speaker 1: this person anymore. Um, involvement in new relationships. So obviously

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Speaker 1: you know you don't want to like trip up the

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Speaker 1: progress that you're making with this new great person by

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Speaker 1: holding on to feelings for the old person. And the

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Speaker 1: use of neglect as a disengagement strategy, i e. The

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Speaker 1: slow fade. Oh yeah, if you get slow faded on you,

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Speaker 1: yeah yeah, you keep on fading out. Just just man

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Speaker 1: up or woman up or whatever. Don't. Um. Now, there

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Speaker 1: was a study published February two thousand twelve which I

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Speaker 1: would call the most questionable piece of It's not advice,

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Speaker 1: you can't call study finding an advice, but of course

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Speaker 1: it's spun as advice, as the media is wont to

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Speaker 1: do with any kind of scientific abstract that it's ever published.

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Speaker 1: Um and full disclosure, I could not find the full

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Speaker 1: text of this study, so I'm going on the abstract. Unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: so little slap on my wrist if I'm misinterpreting anything,

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Speaker 1: but from what I can gather. Study conducted by Ashley

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Speaker 1: Mason out of the University of Arizona found that when

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Speaker 1: it comes to people who have gone through a divorce, UH,

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Speaker 1: those who had accepted the breakup aired better than those

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Speaker 1: who didn't. Alright, makes total sense. For those who didn't

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Speaker 1: accept it, making a clean break didn't make them any

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Speaker 1: happier than trying to maintain a friendship. Also makes sense.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes friendship feels worse in a way because it's just

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Speaker 1: like getting you know, it's like getting runner up of um.

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Speaker 1: But here we go. Are you ready for this? Hit me?

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Speaker 1: If they stayed in touch with their ex as they

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Speaker 1: were found to be fearing much better if they kept

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Speaker 1: having sex with the X. So if you're feeling really

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Speaker 1: glum about getting divorced, this is not just a breakup.

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Speaker 1: We're talking about getting divorced. If you keep having sex

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Speaker 1: with your ex spouse and keep getting those shots of

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Speaker 1: oxytocin in your brain because that's what happens in a

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Speaker 1: brain during an orgasm, and it promotes feelings of bonding

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Speaker 1: and happiness. Guess what you'll feel better. Don't do that.

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Speaker 1: People don't do don't do that. I know. This is

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Speaker 1: like that Meryl Street movie that my mom watches over

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Speaker 1: and over again. Um, and researchers are like, why why

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Speaker 1: does this happen? Because your actions match your feelings, but

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Speaker 1: they give a warning of like, but watch out, having

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Speaker 1: sex with your ex could prevent you from moving on. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Half of the pain of breakups, as we've talked about

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Speaker 1: in the podcast so many times, has to do with

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Speaker 1: chemicals in your brain and going through withdrawals from those

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Speaker 1: chemicals when that other person is not around. If you

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Speaker 1: continue consistently having sex with your eggs, you are simply

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Speaker 1: delaying the inevitable most likely. I'm not trying to be

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Speaker 1: old deb downer over here, but let's be honest. You

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Speaker 1: should just probably just move on. And this ties into

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Speaker 1: these narratives that we often tell ourselves about why you

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Speaker 1: know what you need to be friends with you. You

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Speaker 1: need to preserve this relationship, how you justify it? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and one of those things is just you know, waiting,

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Speaker 1: waiting it out as a friend because if you can

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Speaker 1: just hold back in the friend zone, he or she

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Speaker 1: will start to see you again as the amazing cupcake

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Speaker 1: that you are and we'll want you back and it's

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Speaker 1: gonna feel so much better because you will be wanted

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Speaker 1: back into their arms. But that could be forever. You

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Speaker 1: could end up waiting forever. And if this, if this happens,

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Speaker 1: if you kind of hang out on the friend zone

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Speaker 1: waiting for your ex to you know, notice you again romantically,

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Speaker 1: you might just end up being the hook up, you know,

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Speaker 1: the insurance policy, like, oh well my ex is always

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Speaker 1: going to be hanging around, so I might as well

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Speaker 1: just like keep my mind off things, etcetera, etcetera. But

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Speaker 1: on the flip side, don't keep a person in the

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Speaker 1: in the friend zone just in case this is post breakup.

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Speaker 1: Put him in the post breakup friend zone just in

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Speaker 1: case you know this whole breakup thing in your brain,

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Speaker 1: like maybe you were just going through something. They're an

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Speaker 1: awesome person, you know, why not be friends? You might

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Speaker 1: see it might be better down the road. Don't string

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Speaker 1: somebody along. Not fair to another person. Um, you know

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Speaker 1: you don't want to hurt him or her. That's a

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Speaker 1: good reason to be friends, right, you know you feel

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Speaker 1: kind of sorry for the old guy or gal again,

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Speaker 1: stringing someone along breakup suck. We can't get around at people.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's one thing if you genuinely want to

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Speaker 1: be friends with your ex, but to just be like,

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Speaker 1: oh well, we'll just treat this as a transition period,

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Speaker 1: just a status change, if you will. Yeah, it's complicated.

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Speaker 1: It is complicated. Um. And then, and this is a

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Speaker 1: tricky one right here. And I I have experienced this myself.

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Speaker 1: I've had other friends offer the same line. Why should

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Speaker 1: a breakup change that we're best friends? We're best friends.

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Speaker 1: He's my best friend, she's my best friend. We gotta

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Speaker 1: keep his friendship going. We're besties. Come on, now, we

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Speaker 1: have so much in common. We were like made for

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Speaker 1: each other in some way. Maybe it's just not romantic. Nope, yeah,

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Speaker 1: because you can't go back to being best friends once

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Speaker 1: there's been physical intimacy or attraction. I mean, once you've

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Speaker 1: seen each other naked. I don't know. Yeah, I don't

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Speaker 1: know if you can overcome that depending. Okay, well, so

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Speaker 1: you've decided that you're going to ignore everything that we

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Speaker 1: just told you and everything that common sense dictates, and

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Speaker 1: you're gonna go ahead and be friends with your ex.

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Speaker 1: And I got to say that I totally agree with

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Speaker 1: this advice as someone who has broken like almost all

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Speaker 1: of these rules. Please do this. Yeah, so number one,

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Speaker 1: give yourself a morning period. Give your ex and morning period.

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Speaker 1: You have to give yourselves time to get over it,

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Speaker 1: you know, get over the hurt, the anger, whatever. And

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Speaker 1: the longer you were together, the longer it will take. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: common sense, if you've been together for a couple of years,

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Speaker 1: it might take a couple of years. Yeah, exactly. They

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Speaker 1: say to keep it platonic, no monkey business, my friends,

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Speaker 1: keep it platonic. Don't think that you can just fall

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Speaker 1: into that Meryl Streep trap and hook up with your ex,

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Speaker 1: because then you're going to be in that weird, like

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Speaker 1: limbo gray area and you might start asking yourself like,

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Speaker 1: what did it mean? It felt so good? Stop it,

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Speaker 1: don't do it. So, Yeah, jumping off of what she

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Speaker 1: just said, you definitely have to set those clear emotional boundaries.

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Speaker 1: Don't go to your ex for help with your emotional

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Speaker 1: issues and needs. And this is the same thing. You know,

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Speaker 1: people who were like best friends with their with their partner,

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Speaker 1: You can't go to that person anymore, you know. You

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Speaker 1: you might think, oh my gosh, this funny thing happened.

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Speaker 1: This is exactly what I would tell him if he

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Speaker 1: were here. Nope, nope or and it's and it's horrible

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Speaker 1: because a lot of times you do feel like, well,

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Speaker 1: this is the person who knows me better than any

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Speaker 1: other person in the entire world. Guess what you're gonna

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Speaker 1: have to get to know someone else really well, to

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Speaker 1: rely on other friends, rely on your family. Um, and

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Speaker 1: I really feel like we're just we're being like the

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Speaker 1: tough coaches today. Um. Also seek out a love life.

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Speaker 1: We've talked about it before. Rebounding. A little bit of

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Speaker 1: rebound goes a long way to getting you over things

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Speaker 1: now in a healthy way. You know. Be safe out there. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: definitely try to date other people. A friend of mine, uh,

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Speaker 1: he and his significant other broke up, and he immediately

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Speaker 1: launched back into the dating pool. I mean not that

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Speaker 1: he you know, not that he necessarily felt it, but

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Speaker 1: it's the whole fake it til you make it thing,

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Speaker 1: you know, distract yourself, meet new people, have new experiences

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Speaker 1: that can maybe lessen lessen the pain. And um, if

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Speaker 1: you do end up building this friendship with an X,

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Speaker 1: you know, steer, keep keep the focus on friendship. Don't

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Speaker 1: sit there and try to have analytical conversations about your relationship.

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Speaker 1: Y'all have friends now, keep it in the friend zone.

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Speaker 1: And then if you start to feel those feelings develop,

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Speaker 1: I've been there. It happens, and it happens so quickly,

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Speaker 1: there's a sparkle in the eye, you know what you

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Speaker 1: need to back away? Yeah, just just take a step back,

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Speaker 1: evaluate and if you decide you know what these feelings

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Speaker 1: are there for both of us, you better both be

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Speaker 1: sure because you broke up for a reason. So these

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Speaker 1: take you know, take my advice. It's very possible that

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Speaker 1: those feelings could just be like residue, right relationship residue.

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Speaker 1: And again, I know people who have broken up on

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Speaker 1: more than one occasion and gotten back together there now

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Speaker 1: happy and stable and whatnot. But this is just these

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Speaker 1: are consider these best practices, um. And I also wanted

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Speaker 1: to know what Dan Savage, Relationship Guru, host of Savage

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Speaker 1: Love and also the genius behind the Stranger Sex column. Um.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to know what he recommends doing post breakup,

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Speaker 1: and he says, stay away. I was not too surprised

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Speaker 1: by this. He said, uh, yeah, you know, you can

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Speaker 1: be really good friends in like three years, two and

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Speaker 1: a half years, but you need that distance from it,

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Speaker 1: especially if you're on the receiving end of a breakup.

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Speaker 1: That person needs to be nowhere in sight for a

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Speaker 1: little while to cauterize that wound. As he would say, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and he does touch on the fact that, you know,

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Speaker 1: there are all these social pressures to feel like if

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Speaker 1: you're the dumpy to be all mature like, oh well,

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Speaker 1: it didn't get to me. I mean, you're still a

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Speaker 1: cool person even though you broke my freaking heart. We

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Speaker 1: can be friends, we can totally hang out. But no, no, don't,

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Speaker 1: don't try to pretend that you're not hurt. Just like,

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Speaker 1: go away for a while, it away from that person

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Speaker 1: and their Facebook posts, you know, leave it alone for

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Speaker 1: a while so that you can give yourself a chance

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Speaker 1: to recover. Because in a lot of ways, that is

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Speaker 1: the more mature tac to take than pretending that some

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Speaker 1: kind of loss does not exist. Um and Facebook you

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Speaker 1: just brought up? Oh man, like brickups have gotten so

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Speaker 1: much more complicated thanks to Facebook and Mark Zuckerberg. Um, listen,

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Speaker 1: I do. This is a personal piece of advice that

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Speaker 1: I have for people during this waiting period. Okay, block them,

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Speaker 1: block the person. You don't need to see that only

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Speaker 1: because you know what. A new study out of the

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Speaker 1: University of Western Ontario has found that Facebook makes stalkers

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Speaker 1: of us. All yeah, and it has to do with

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Speaker 1: your distressed level. And but it's an interesting chicken in

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Speaker 1: the egg kind of question, chicken or the egg. Chicken

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Speaker 1: or the egg. Uh. They said that regardless of how

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Speaker 1: much you're actually on Facebook, your distress level changes based

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Speaker 1: on the surveillance you're doing on your ex And then

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Speaker 1: they ask, but are you distressed because you're creeping on

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Speaker 1: them or you're creeping on them because you're distressed probably

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Speaker 1: a bit of both. Um. Yeah. They found that eighty

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Speaker 1: percent of people's survey checked out their excess pages, and

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Speaker 1: the worst thing to see on the excess pages the

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Speaker 1: status update, the relationship status update, because eighty percent of

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Speaker 1: us will click on that link and look up the

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Speaker 1: new X is the excess new partner. Yeah, I've done it.

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Speaker 1: I've been there, I've done it. Do you want to

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Speaker 1: see it? I don't want to see it, but I

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Speaker 1: do because it's so easy, which is why I recommend

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Speaker 1: you just make the block. You don't have to befriend,

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Speaker 1: but you just block them. You can unblock at some point,

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Speaker 1: but just take that take that away from yourself. Yeah. Well,

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Speaker 1: I I've hidden excess, but I've also done the thing

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Speaker 1: where I've like hidden the whole network because I'll hide

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Speaker 1: my ex and then I'll hide all of our mutual

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Speaker 1: friends because I don't really want to. I don't want

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Speaker 1: to see his stuff. I don't want to see, you know,

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Speaker 1: if he's dating somebody new, and then I don't want

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Speaker 1: to see all the people like posting stuff to his wall.

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Speaker 1: So it's better just to like out of sight, out

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Speaker 1: of mind. Yeah. L magazine Highly Scientific source Um talked

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Speaker 1: to some mental health professionals about this whole thing of

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Speaker 1: getting back in touch with x is um and psychologist

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Speaker 1: Christina Zampatella said getting back in touch with an ex

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Speaker 1: can prolong the grieving process unless you want to open

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Speaker 1: yourself up to the possibility of remaining stuck. I don't

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Speaker 1: think it's a great idea to spy on an X

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Speaker 1: because it doesn't you know, you start, you look at

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Speaker 1: a picture, then you look at and you feel bad

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Speaker 1: about yourself and what if what if she's cuter, what

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Speaker 1: if he's cuter, and all that stuff. Yeah, therapist James

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Speaker 1: Hambrook said that by thinking about something over and over,

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Speaker 1: you know, licking your wounds, you're legitimately feeling a little

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Speaker 1: bit of relief. It may cause anxiety, but for some

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Speaker 1: that ang xiety is preferable to feeling angry, sad, loss

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Speaker 1: and all those things they'd feel if that person was

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Speaker 1: out of their life. So you're you're not with the

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Speaker 1: person anymore, you're not even talking to the person anymore,

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Speaker 1: but you're looking at their Facebook page every day. So

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Speaker 1: in a way they're still kind of connected to you. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you're keeping something open and in order to I think

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Speaker 1: so far, what we've found is in order to be

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Speaker 1: friends with an X, yeah, it depends on the conditions

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Speaker 1: of the breakup, but it also requires this separation period.

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Speaker 1: You gotta get back to yourself and that means not

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Speaker 1: getting stuck in the Facebook vortex, which were so many

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Speaker 1: of us are guilty of. I'm totally guilty of it. Um.

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Speaker 1: And the thing is too uh, you know, Caroline, you

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Speaker 1: and I some heterosexual ladies and we might just be

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Speaker 1: like making a total mountain out of a mole hill

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Speaker 1: because uh, studies have found that gay and lesbian men

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Speaker 1: and women are a lot more like to remain friends

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Speaker 1: with former sexual partners. Dan Savage again brings this up

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Speaker 1: on this podcast, like, I don't get the big deal

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Speaker 1: at the straight people, no one. It's like you have

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Speaker 1: a breakup and that person has to be dead to you. Um.

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Speaker 1: In the Annual Review of Psychology in two thousand seven US,

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Speaker 1: it's I say U c l a study focusing on

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Speaker 1: gay and lesbian relationships, and like I said, it found

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Speaker 1: that they are more likely to remain friends. Um. Also,

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Speaker 1: another study found that gay and lesbian men and women

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Speaker 1: were more likely to agree that when a relationship is ending,

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Speaker 1: one of my biggest fears is that I will lose

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Speaker 1: the friendship and that it's important to remain friends with

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Speaker 1: someone with whom I've had a serious relationship. And they're

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Speaker 1: also more likely to report continued phone calls and social contact,

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Speaker 1: So there's not really the same cutting off period. There's

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Speaker 1: not the same like three years, don't even look at

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Speaker 1: the person, don't think about the person. We have so

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Speaker 1: much to learn. Right, Well, the theory the theory in

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Speaker 1: this this study is that about the refer to the

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Speaker 1: small size of some gay and lesbian social networks, the

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Speaker 1: norms of particular gay and lesbian communities, and the benefits

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Speaker 1: that can accrue from transforming ties. And this goes for

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Speaker 1: everybody transforming ties with X lovers into friendships. And that

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Speaker 1: goes back to our first point about um being able

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Speaker 1: to gain things from a friendship with someone. Right, if

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Speaker 1: it was a toxic relationship, you don't want to continue

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Speaker 1: that toxicity within a friendship. But if there were a

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Speaker 1: lot of you know, mutual benefits in that person really

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00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:33,400
Speaker 1: was an incredible support in your life, you can't continue

427
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:36,919
Speaker 1: those to benefit from those resources in a friendship. But

428
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:40,879
Speaker 1: you just have to tread lightly. Yeah, you just you

429
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:44,200
Speaker 1: really have to be honest with yourself. You know, if

430
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:46,600
Speaker 1: if you're like, no, no, things are fine, I totally

431
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:50,479
Speaker 1: don't want to get back together with this person, be honest,

432
00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:53,600
Speaker 1: he just knows me like no one else knows me.

433
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:56,960
Speaker 1: And once you find yourself being sentimental like that, I

434
00:25:56,960 --> 00:25:59,760
Speaker 1: mean there there's just a lot of red flags, and

435
00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:02,560
Speaker 1: it's scary. I mean, gosh, you go through a breakup

436
00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:04,320
Speaker 1: after you've been with somebody for a long time and

437
00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:07,760
Speaker 1: the idea of going back out there and doing it

438
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:11,680
Speaker 1: all over again with somebody new. It's off putting. It's scary,

439
00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:14,080
Speaker 1: and it's like, how do I even want to try this?

440
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:16,280
Speaker 1: And so you do. You start to think back and like, wow,

441
00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:19,880
Speaker 1: that was really comfortable. Yeah, that was the old couch

442
00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:22,920
Speaker 1: equivalent of a relationship. I want to go back to that.

443
00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:27,439
Speaker 1: But you know what, um, the fact about breakups I

444
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:30,000
Speaker 1: think that we've learned is that they hurt our brain.

445
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:33,239
Speaker 1: Our brains go through withdrawal. We have it as all

446
00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:38,480
Speaker 1: these emotional repercussions, and there is really no shortcut to

447
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:42,639
Speaker 1: getting over it. I recommend replacing it with a life skill. Yeah,

448
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:45,600
Speaker 1: my last really big breakup, I learned to play the

449
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:49,920
Speaker 1: piano and I started taking improv classes. Here you go, see,

450
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:53,520
Speaker 1: we improved ourselves. I don't really play so much anymore,

451
00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:58,760
Speaker 1: but I guess I'm busy, which is good to be busy,

452
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:01,800
Speaker 1: but also give yourself to time to heal. Don't don't

453
00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:05,399
Speaker 1: pretend like nothing's wrong. So can you be friends with

454
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:10,159
Speaker 1: an next eventually, Yeah, eventually, that's a good answer. Yeah,

455
00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:14,640
Speaker 1: and tread with caution. Um oh man, I can't wait

456
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:30,520
Speaker 1: for the stories we're going to get. Now it's time

457
00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:33,200
Speaker 1: for us to ask you for all of your stories

458
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:36,520
Speaker 1: about can you be friends with the next guys? Is easier?

459
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:38,439
Speaker 1: You know if a girl breaks up with you. That

460
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 1: one study says that, you know, if guys initiate their

461
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:44,120
Speaker 1: relationship the breakup, then you're more likely to have a friendship.

462
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:46,720
Speaker 1: So does it? Is there somehow a bigger burn if

463
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:51,160
Speaker 1: you get dumped? Uh? What are your conditions for friendship?

464
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:54,200
Speaker 1: Have you made this friendship work? Have you been gone

465
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:56,760
Speaker 1: through the whole cycles of being friends and then the

466
00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 1: twinkle came back and now you're married with a million

467
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:04,200
Speaker 1: babies and really happy? Have you defied the odds? Let

468
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:08,800
Speaker 1: us know? Mom. Stuff at Discovery dot com is where

469
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:12,080
Speaker 1: you can send your letters, and we have a couple

470
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:17,160
Speaker 1: here for you. Starting out with AND's story about summer

471
00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:21,360
Speaker 1: camp and she mentions, Uh, the campfire girls camp which

472
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:24,399
Speaker 1: we mentioned in the podcast. Just said mentioned like four

473
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:27,639
Speaker 1: times and I'll say it again. She writes, you mentioned

474
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:33,160
Speaker 1: that in Luther Goolic founded a camp fire girls camp

475
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:35,760
Speaker 1: but that it actually was just the end of a

476
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:39,400
Speaker 1: very interesting history of progressive ideas about youth play and

477
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:44,360
Speaker 1: physical fitness. Ghoulik is actually most famous for his involvement

478
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:47,480
Speaker 1: in the invention of basketball and for spreading the idea

479
00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:50,080
Speaker 1: of gym class through his involvement in the New York

480
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:53,320
Speaker 1: City public schools in the late eighteen hundreds, and he

481
00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:56,200
Speaker 1: was also involved in the movement for spreading public parks.

482
00:28:56,400 --> 00:29:00,440
Speaker 1: Luther Gulick sounds like an awesome dude anyway. He founded

483
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:05,400
Speaker 1: Camp tim Annouse Camp tim Annouse in eighteen eighties seven

484
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 1: in Connecticut, where it was later moved to Maine as

485
00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:09,640
Speaker 1: a place for boys to be out of doors and

486
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:12,960
Speaker 1: to adventure. Obviously, there is an emphasis on physical fitness

487
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:17,240
Speaker 1: as well. These ideas carried over to a sister camp, Wahelo,

488
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 1: which he founded in nineteen o seven and expanded in

489
00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 1: nineteen ten. Wahelo maidens, as they were called, were to

490
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:28,240
Speaker 1: be found living intense, drawing, hiking, and canoeing, not practicing housekeeping.

491
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:30,520
Speaker 1: Girls were expected to be out of doors all day

492
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:34,440
Speaker 1: and to learn campcraft, and often went on week long

493
00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:37,240
Speaker 1: hiking trips. In fact, one of the traditions that still

494
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:40,320
Speaker 1: continues there from the very beginning is teaching older girls

495
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:43,240
Speaker 1: how to make fires without matches. I learned to do

496
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:46,320
Speaker 1: it there when I was fourteen. Well that's really cool.

497
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:48,320
Speaker 1: I wish I could do that on the whole. It

498
00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:52,360
Speaker 1: was the sort of place that was regarded as dangerously progressive.

499
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:54,840
Speaker 1: The camp is still in existence and run by the

500
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:57,320
Speaker 1: same family, and you can check it out at wahilo

501
00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:00,680
Speaker 1: dot com. So thanks Anne for she hearing that story.

502
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:04,000
Speaker 1: And also, since we spoke about life skills, you could

503
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:07,400
Speaker 1: make starting a fire without a match your new life skills,

504
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:09,560
Speaker 1: as long as it is used the fire is not

505
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:13,680
Speaker 1: used to burn down someone's house or anything like that.

506
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:18,480
Speaker 1: Good advice. Thank you. This email is from Jennifer about

507
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:21,960
Speaker 1: our Timber Tantrums episode, and I have to say thank

508
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:25,240
Speaker 1: you Jennifer for your subject line, which is temper tantrum

509
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:30,400
Speaker 1: a k a ah hop smash okay. She writes, as

510
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:33,200
Speaker 1: the parent of boys ages eleven and five, I've had

511
00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:35,680
Speaker 1: two rounds of tantrums, the youngest being the worst of

512
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:38,440
Speaker 1: the two. I don't necessarily think it is the parents

513
00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:40,600
Speaker 1: who don't want to deal with the tantrum. If you

514
00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:43,040
Speaker 1: follow the ignor a method that is recommended. When your

515
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:45,440
Speaker 1: kid is freaking in the middle of target, you get

516
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:48,680
Speaker 1: the nastiest looks on the face of the planet because

517
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:52,000
Speaker 1: you are failing to quote unquote control your child. With

518
00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:55,920
Speaker 1: the advent of superstores, large grocery chains, shopping malls, etcetera,

519
00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:58,760
Speaker 1: the quote children should be seen and not heard adage

520
00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:02,200
Speaker 1: it's no longer applicable. Kids will pitch fits in the store,

521
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:04,680
Speaker 1: especially when there are toys and candy on every in

522
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:08,600
Speaker 1: cap and at every register. Companies take advantage, in my opinion,

523
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:11,239
Speaker 1: of parents wanting to not feel shame or embarrassment when

524
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:14,680
Speaker 1: their child does have am tantrum by making items readily

525
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:18,000
Speaker 1: available to play kate children just to keep them quiet.

526
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:20,920
Speaker 1: I can say that people need to understand, but I

527
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:23,240
Speaker 1: think that is asking a lot, perhaps maybe a more

528
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:26,800
Speaker 1: realistic goal as individually as by standards. Just offer the

529
00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:29,880
Speaker 1: parent a sympathetic smile, not a full on discourse about

530
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:31,920
Speaker 1: how your kid used to do the same thing, and

531
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:35,200
Speaker 1: don't attract any more attention to the ongoing tantrum. You'd

532
00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:37,120
Speaker 1: be amazed at how much better that can make an

533
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:41,480
Speaker 1: already stressed parent feel. So thank you for the perspective, Jennifer,

534
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:44,520
Speaker 1: and thanks of course, to everyone who has written in

535
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 1: moms Stuff. At Discovery dot com is where you can

536
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:50,719
Speaker 1: send your letters about being friends or not friends with

537
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:52,920
Speaker 1: an X, and you can also leave us a comment

538
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:55,640
Speaker 1: on Facebook, Like us while you're there, and follow us

539
00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:59,160
Speaker 1: on Twitter at Mom's Stuff Podcasts, and you can read

540
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:03,080
Speaker 1: all of out what romance does to the brain and

541
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:07,080
Speaker 1: the body, and how to not be a crazy stoker

542
00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:09,160
Speaker 1: on Facebook after you go through a breakup at our

543
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:15,800
Speaker 1: website It's how Stuff Works dot com for more on

544
00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:18,400
Speaker 1: this and thousands of other topics. Does it how stuff

545
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:23,960
Speaker 1: works dot com