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Speaker 1: Also media. Oh I didn't see you there. Welcome to

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Speaker 1: Behind the Bastards. You've stepped into our living room podcast house.

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm the podcast about bad people. I

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Speaker 1: struggle through the introduction every week, but then we get

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Speaker 1: to the terrible person, one of the worst people in

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Speaker 1: all of history that we're talking about, and everybody has

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Speaker 1: a good time learning about things that make them feel

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Speaker 1: bad because we're all damaged people speaking of shit. That's

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Speaker 1: a bad way to speaking of this volunti podcast host.

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Speaker 1: Thank you my guest this week, Molly Conger. Molly, welcome

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Speaker 1: to the show.

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Speaker 2: You've got a podcast, thrilled to be here. Yeah, I

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Speaker 2: also have a podcast about guys who suck minor weirder

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Speaker 2: and littler. It's weird little guys.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, there's a strict height requirement, much like the

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Speaker 1: Prussian heavy infantry in order to be on your podcast,

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Speaker 1: but in the reverse way anyway. Uh, Molly, how do

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Speaker 1: you feel about soccer football as it's called by most

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Speaker 1: of the people who like it?

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Speaker 2: So I don't know anything about it, but I've been

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Speaker 2: watching the World Cup with my husband and I love

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Speaker 2: hollering at the tv.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, good, that's all, I feel like this is

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Speaker 1: kind of this happens periodically where like you know, the

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Speaker 1: World Cups in the United States, so a lot of

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Speaker 1: Americans who normally aren't so much in to what the

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Speaker 1: West to football, we'll call it football, suddenly find themselves

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Speaker 1: intrigued by it for like the first time or the

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Speaker 1: first time in a while. And right now the whole

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Speaker 1: freedom loving world is captured by a new and often

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Speaker 1: performative love of the sport. And as I think most

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Speaker 1: people are aware, the organization that governs how football or

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Speaker 1: soccer works is FIFA, and they are more corrupt than

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Speaker 1: a barrel full of Iraqi generals marinated in oil. It's

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Speaker 1: marinated in the oil, Like huh.

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Speaker 2: Is it Giannino? Are we doing?

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Speaker 1: Are much worse, much worse, much worse, much worse. Because

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Speaker 1: if you're not aware, if you.

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Speaker 2: Were that excited about that, because we.

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Speaker 1: Will, we will. We will have to cover him at

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Speaker 1: some point. But like, FIFA is so corrupt that if

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Speaker 1: you google FIFA corruption scandals, you have to specify the

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Speaker 1: year in order to get any kind of useful result

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Speaker 1: because there's just way too many otherwise, like you're just

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Speaker 1: gonna get like chronological news stories from the latest one,

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Speaker 1: and any infamously corrupt and abusive institution is only as

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Speaker 1: good as its most corrupt and statistically violent team managers,

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Speaker 1: or and in the case of professional soccer, the most

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Speaker 1: abusive manager slash team owner in the history of the sport.

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Speaker 1: Do you do you want to have a guess to

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Speaker 1: to to who's the most abusive team owner in the

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Speaker 1: history of football?

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Speaker 2: I couldn't even begin to guess. But as I've been

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Speaker 2: watching the World Cup, I have noticed that whenever they

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Speaker 2: cut the sidelines, it's the most sinister looking man you've

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Speaker 2: ever seen in your fucking life.

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Speaker 1: And that's how it is. Now. Now I'll give you.

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Speaker 1: I'll give you one hint, Molly, one hint. The character

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Speaker 1: we're talking about today is the son of a whitely

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Speaker 1: beloved romance novelist, although someone who's better known for their

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Speaker 1: other work.

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Speaker 2: Is it one of the Hussein sons.

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Speaker 1: It's Oudei Hussein, that's right, that's right. He owned a

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Speaker 1: soccer team. He was like the manager of a FIFA tee.

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Speaker 1: He was a big deal in the world of soccer

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Speaker 1: for a while, and for a long time actually.

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Speaker 2: And I imagine he treated the players fairly and with respect.

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Speaker 1: That's right. This is a story about a man who

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Speaker 1: treated his players respectfully and didn't, for example, keep a

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Speaker 1: torture dungeon underneath the team workout area. Four members of the.

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Speaker 2: Team, highly motivational, controversial time.

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Speaker 1: That's right, that's right. I've told Sophie Won't to try

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Speaker 1: something like that for the network, but she says, apparently

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Speaker 1: it's hard to expense torture dungeons anymore unless you're Amazon. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I think I think I could bring in twice as

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Speaker 2: many downloads if I was recording above a torture dungeon.

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Speaker 1: If there was a torture dungeon. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So yeah, you're ready to talk about Uday Hussein soccer

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Speaker 1: star kind of.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I think if you ask me, like the

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Speaker 2: traits of Uday Hussein, like what was what was he

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Speaker 2: best known for? How would you describe Hussein? Football manager,

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Speaker 2: top top of the list?

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Speaker 1: Football manager? Yeah, yeah, yeah, kind of yeah, manager sort

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Speaker 1: of it team owner. It's a little it's hard to

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Speaker 1: translate his job directly, but he basically he owns like

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Speaker 1: the most prestigious team in Iraq, and he's also the

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Speaker 1: head of like their their their football like the national

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Speaker 1: like football committee and the head of their like Olympic

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Speaker 1: football team, right because of his he's running because of

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Speaker 1: his great skill in football. Of course, Ude Hussein wouldn't

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Speaker 1: get the job for any other reason at the age

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Speaker 1: of twenty. Anyway, we're gonna I will give it to

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Speaker 1: a bit of a biography. This is These are not

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Speaker 1: technically our Uday episodes. I think I still might do

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Speaker 1: dedicated There's a lot this guy got up to in

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Speaker 1: his life, and it's all pretty awful but pretty entertaining.

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Speaker 1: But we're gonna stick mostly to football in this one

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Speaker 1: because there's that much like his football career was that significant?

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Speaker 1: Born in kark Baghdad on either June eighteenth or March

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Speaker 1: ninth of nineteen sixty four, and you again, one of

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Speaker 1: the best ways to tell if this is going to

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Speaker 1: be a great episode of Behind the Bastards, are there

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Speaker 1: multiple equally likely birthdays for the bastard or like, do

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Speaker 1: we have any idea when they were really born?

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Speaker 2: This many children? Oh yeh, at least five children.

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Speaker 1: At least at least these are the details you know

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Speaker 1: that make things fun. Udai came into this world the

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Speaker 1: son of a father who was a man of modest means.

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Speaker 1: You know, Saddam Musin was not born wealthy. He came

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Speaker 1: from a scrappy backwater town, and he was a scrappy

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Speaker 1: backwater kid who fought every hour of his life to

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Speaker 1: become a powerful and influential man in the new Iraq

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Speaker 1: that he also helped to create. Saddam was a Bath

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Speaker 1: Party activist, and he'd fought to help the party seize

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Speaker 1: power three years before Ude's birth. So by the time

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Speaker 1: Ude comes into the world, the future of the Bath

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Speaker 1: Party in Iraq is uncertain. Right, they had just taken power,

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Speaker 1: they don't have things like super solidified. It's very possible

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Speaker 1: there's going to be a counterwave that like pushes them

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Speaker 1: out because they're not necessarily doing the best job. Right.

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Speaker 1: So it's at this point, by no means guaranteed that

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Speaker 1: Saddam's going to ever be more than like a mid

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Speaker 1: level kind of politico thug. You know this is he

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Speaker 1: could have just been just yet another pretty forgettable guy

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Speaker 1: in the history of Iraqi politics. And indeed, shortly after

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Speaker 1: Ude was born, Saddam miscalculated and put his support behind

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Speaker 1: a faction in the party that lost out in a

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Speaker 1: major power struggle, and Saddam was imprisoned for two years

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Speaker 1: but escaped and being Saddam Hussein, he goes on the

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Speaker 1: run and so like in some of UDA's earliest years,

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Speaker 1: his dad is like living outside of the law and

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Speaker 1: having like infrequent communication with his family. I think they're

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Speaker 1: moving sometimes to try to like meet up with him.

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Speaker 1: And by the time Uda is like three years old,

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Speaker 1: Saddam has kind of gotten himself out of the doghouse.

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Speaker 1: He scraped back enough power to make like a play

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Speaker 1: for a better position for himself, and he succeeds. There's

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Speaker 1: like a you know, another coup basically in Iraq, and

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Speaker 1: the new power structure that Saddam helps bring into being.

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Speaker 1: Sees Iraq run by a president named al Baker, who

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Speaker 1: is a kind of in the mold that happens in

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Speaker 1: these situations, a sick and elderly man that people sometimes

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Speaker 1: compared to bymar Germany's Paul Hindenberg. Like after this this

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Speaker 1: revel or this this coup, Saddam is the secondary guy

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Speaker 1: to this sick old dude that more people like, and

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Speaker 1: he's kind of running things from the background, you know,

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Speaker 1: Like that's what's happening when Ude is like four or five,

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Speaker 1: six years old, right in those years. So Saddam is

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Speaker 1: basically running a raq at that point in Uday's life,

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Speaker 1: but he's not a officially in charge. Does that make sense?

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Speaker 2: I guess it's been so long since you're Saddam Hussein

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Speaker 2: those like early in this show, right, he did.

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Speaker 1: Early years ago, almost ten years ago. I know we're

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Speaker 1: kind of Yadi because this isn't Saddam episode y D.

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Speaker 2: Because I guess that's you know, most most of what

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Speaker 2: I know about that, I'm Hussein. Yeah, it just never

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Speaker 2: occurred to me that his children were young during his

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Speaker 2: rise to power, like when he was a young like aspiring.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, just Ude. Really, I don't think Hussey's come

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Speaker 1: into the picture at this point, but yeah, he was

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Speaker 1: there for the come up, Yes, Ude is probably his

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Speaker 1: first memories are kind of when his dad is like

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Speaker 1: vice president and just sort of coming into power. Tribuna

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Speaker 1: writer George Woodward describes Uda being raised, quote from the

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Speaker 1: age of five, like a crown prince. So from about

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Speaker 1: his earliest memory, his dad is the guy who's running everything,

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Speaker 1: and he's expected to follow in his dad's footsteps, right,

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Speaker 1: So he doesn't really have much in the way of

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Speaker 1: life before that, although you have to imagine the kind

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Speaker 1: of chaotic and dangerous very earliest years of his life

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Speaker 1: probably had some impact on him. The fact that his

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Speaker 1: dad's on the run and stuff like that likely percolated

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Speaker 1: through to some extent, I expect.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if by the time you're five, you're

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Speaker 2: a little prince.

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Speaker 1: Right right, maybe it doesn't do all that much. Now,

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Speaker 1: if you lived through the Goal War and then the

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Speaker 1: Iraq War years is I think all three of us

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Speaker 1: on the show did. You've encountered a lot of propaganda

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Speaker 1: about Saddam Hussein and his Iraq. Now, much of that

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Speaker 1: has been proven to be nonsense. As we'll discuss in

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Speaker 1: these episodes. There's a lot of bullshit about Saddam Hussein

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Speaker 1: just because it made a good story, and news, especially

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Speaker 1: like cheap periodicals like The New York Post, weren't checking anything.

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Speaker 1: If someone had like a lurid story about Saddam Hussein

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Speaker 1: in two thousand and two, you could get it printed

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Speaker 1: in a bunch of places. Nobody was checking on shit

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Speaker 1: as long as some guy who was an Iraqi defector

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Speaker 1: said that this is what happened. People were not doing

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Speaker 1: any kind of due diligence and the journalism world right especially,

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Speaker 1: those were but not a lot of the right. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: not in the early two thousands. Now, that doesn't change

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Speaker 1: the fact Saddam who's saying this, is not not doing

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Speaker 1: any revisionism. Saddam was an undeniably brutal dictator. He was

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Speaker 1: a horrible guy, and Ude is going to grow into

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Speaker 1: a horrific violent man who kills a lot of people.

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Speaker 1: But that doesn't mean every story about them is true.

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Speaker 1: And so part of what you have to do when

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Speaker 1: you're kind of researching an episode like this is trying

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Speaker 1: to pick apart how how possible is this crazy claim

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Speaker 1: that I may want to be true? But how likely

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Speaker 1: is that that had happened?

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Speaker 2: Did do that? Or was it doctor evil?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Right, because that sounds more doctor evil? Yeahs yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I don't know if he had access to those I

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Speaker 1: think Iraq might have done better if he had lasers

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Speaker 1: on for the Sharks. So I found an article in

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Speaker 1: These Football Times by Justin Sherman that gives a pretty

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Speaker 1: representative summary of the common take on Udae's childhood. This

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Speaker 1: is how he's described in a lot of publications right

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Speaker 1: in very similar terms to this, because this is the

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Speaker 1: this is the definitely like most marketable version of his

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Speaker 1: life story. Almost from birth, ude Hussein had a curiosity

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Speaker 1: and borderline affinity for violence. As an infant, instead of

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Speaker 1: pushing toy cars, he played with disarmed grenades. By the

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Speaker 1: age of ten, he was already shadowing his father to

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Speaker 1: the torture chamber at Kassar al Nahaya, nicknamed the Palace

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Speaker 1: of the End. Many political enemies were killed here, including

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Speaker 1: the overthrown king Faisal the second to observe how Saddam

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Speaker 1: dealt with perceived dissidence by high school, he bragged how

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Speaker 1: he had murdered his teacher for disrespecting him in front

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Speaker 1: of his girlfriend. So that's the traditional take on Udai

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Speaker 1: from born to murder, right like from the time, he's

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Speaker 1: a little kid torturing with glee, just one of these

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Speaker 1: people who was inherently monstrous. And obviously we'll get how

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Speaker 1: evil Saddam is, how could he be anything but inherently monstrous.

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Speaker 1: We'll talk a little bit about how accurate I think

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Speaker 1: all of that is here. Woodward's own description attributes Uday's

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Speaker 1: propensity to violence to quote unusual ideas that Saddam had

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Speaker 1: about raising children, but notes that this claim that like

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Speaker 1: Uda is violent because his dad had these different beliefs

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Speaker 1: aout how you raise kids. That that claim is something

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Speaker 1: Saddam's political opponents circulated after they fled the country, right.

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Speaker 2: Because who's actually raising the child? Is this mother's nanny's.

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Speaker 1: It's nanny's and mo like his mom is in the picture.

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Speaker 1: But he's also like a wealthy kid. So they all

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Speaker 1: from a pretty early age. He's being watched by a

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Speaker 1: lot of different people. Right. We don't have a ton

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Speaker 1: of context on that, but that's kind of what I've

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Speaker 1: pieced together.

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Speaker 2: I like, what kind of parenting philosophies are we talking about?

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Speaker 2: Is that like early twentieth century German thing where it's

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Speaker 2: illegal to touch your children, you can't kiss them.

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Speaker 1: It's more Saddam wanted him to like see guys being

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Speaker 1: beaten and tortured up close from a pretty young age.

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Speaker 2: To get it weird.

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Speaker 1: Is what it takes to be in it's a Game

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Speaker 1: of thrones kind of shit almost, is like you need

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Speaker 1: to know what it takes to rule this kingdom? Right? Yeah, right,

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Speaker 1: now again, how crazy all this actually and how crazy

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Speaker 1: people talk about it? These are two different things, and

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Speaker 1: there are alternate less extreme explanations for and less crazy

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Speaker 1: standing descriptions of UDA's childhood that sounds very different from

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Speaker 1: the paragraph I just read you. For example, the think

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Speaker 1: about him playing with disarmed grenades. If you read deeper,

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Speaker 1: that's like one specific story of like him playing around

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Speaker 1: with like a disarmed grenade while they were waiting for

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Speaker 1: like the results of some raid like or some like

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Speaker 1: like who kind of related activity that his dad was

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Speaker 1: carrying out. So it was like a dangerous night for them,

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Speaker 1: and UDA's playing They've got like a disarmed grenade, and

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Speaker 1: like maybe that sounds crazy, it could be fun. One

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Speaker 1: of my Yeah, I remember one of my uncles had

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Speaker 1: when I was a kid. They had like a desk

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Speaker 1: toy that was like a disarmed or fat I think

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Speaker 1: it may have just been a training grenade or whatever.

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Speaker 1: But that may have been what Uda had as like

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Speaker 1: a training grenade that was never real, Like it's not

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Speaker 1: clear to me. I don't know. I don't think it's

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Speaker 1: that crazy, Like he's not playing with disarm grenades, a

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Speaker 1: toy gun, no exactly exactly, and it's not like those

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Speaker 1: were his only toys. Like one weird occasion, right, Right,

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Speaker 1: If instead.

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Speaker 2: Of blocks he only had like military surplus equipment, that

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Speaker 2: would be weird.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that would be weird. But I don't think anyone's

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Speaker 1: really saying that. Yeah, and he definitely at a certain

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Speaker 1: point it sees like his dad's torture dungeons, right, and

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Speaker 1: it helps him down. He's gonna get me a big

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Speaker 1: fan of torture. It's unclear when that starts. Woodward says

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Speaker 1: it's from age like fifteen on that Saddam lets him

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Speaker 1: participate in torture. That said, I also think it's fairer

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Speaker 1: to describe that as Saddam abused him by making him

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Speaker 1: participate in torture because he's fifty high.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but also I feel like exposing a child to that,

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Speaker 2: like especially like during puberty, I don't know, there's something

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Speaker 2: about like the cement being wet in your brain at

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Speaker 2: that moment.

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Speaker 1: It's not gonna do good things to him.

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Speaker 2: You're gonna become weird probably.

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Speaker 1: And you you get really varying stories as to like

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Speaker 1: when did Saddam start exposing him to this stuff. Ude's

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Speaker 1: obituary and The Independent claimed that when Ude was five,

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Speaker 1: Saddam made him attend a family like gathering in a

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Speaker 1: Bagdad public square to watch the hanging of dozens of

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Speaker 1: Iraqi Jews who had been declared spies. The article continues

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Speaker 1: that quote Saddam boasted that he toughened his voice up

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Speaker 1: by taking them to watch the torture of enemies of

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Speaker 1: the nation and the liquidation of traders. That's very medieval,

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Speaker 1: and again I don't have trouble believing that that's in

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Speaker 1: line with some other stuff, and it's pretty consistent in

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Speaker 1: stories about them, But it's often described as like evidence

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Speaker 1: of Udai's early violent protrensity of violence and brutality were

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Speaker 1: more of what I'm seeing, And this will make sense

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Speaker 1: with some other stuff we're about to talk about. Is

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Speaker 1: that I think Saddam starts exposing to ude to violence

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Speaker 1: at a very young age, and it like fucks him

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Speaker 1: up and you can see it change him and damage him.

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Speaker 1: He was not a violent kid from an early age.

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Speaker 1: He's brutalized by his dad exposing him with this stuff.

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Speaker 2: Even if as a twelve year old he's saying, oh, Daddy,

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Speaker 2: please take me to the public hanging. That's still a

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Speaker 2: child and it's juell your responsibilities to parents.

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Speaker 1: Because you make it sound cool, because I really know

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Speaker 1: what it is because he's twelve.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's child abuse, I think, to take children

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Speaker 2: to the torture dungeon. I'm gonna stand it on one exactly.

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Speaker 1: And it's not described as that often enough. It's it

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Speaker 1: always in these stories comes across as part of well,

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Speaker 1: this is a man who was just always, from the

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Speaker 1: earliest days of his childhood a violence size. No, this

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Speaker 1: is a child who was molded and abused into being

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Speaker 1: a violent psych That's kind of important, you know.

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Speaker 2: It's not like those stories of like serial killers where

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Speaker 2: you hear like, oh, you know, as in middle school

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Speaker 2: he's sort of dismembering cats, Like this is not that.

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Speaker 1: No, this is different than that, really, and like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I don't know. Maybe I don't know enough about Adia's

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Speaker 1: childhood to know was he that guy? But there's reasons

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Speaker 1: to believe he wasn't. Right, and I'm inclined to doubt

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Speaker 1: the often repeated, possibly by Uday, story that he'd murdered

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Speaker 1: a teacher before he went into high school for disrespecting

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Speaker 1: to stay he would tell that right. Not only does

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Speaker 1: it sound fake, but I've read a book and it's out.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of hard to find, but there's some online

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Speaker 1: copies that is, like the Saddam Hussein approved version of

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Speaker 1: his life story for WESTS like it was a propaganda

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Speaker 1: thing that he came out. And one of the stories

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Speaker 1: in there is him holding his principle at gunpoint to

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Speaker 1: force him to like admit him to school because Saddam

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Speaker 1: loved being loved learning how to read, like love school.

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Speaker 1: His reading program actually was really good. He had a

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Speaker 1: very effective reading program for Iraq. It was one of

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Speaker 1: the things he was good at.

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Speaker 2: To a literacy program was good, but it.

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Speaker 1: Really did it where I worked quite well. But and

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Speaker 1: that's definitely how much children there's any real evidence, And

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Speaker 1: I think Ude may have told that lie because like, well,

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Speaker 1: my dad has a story about fucking being violent to

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Speaker 1: his teacher, I need an even more extreme one. That's

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Speaker 1: what I read there, because I don't have I don't

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Speaker 1: have any like good reason to believe he actually killed

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Speaker 1: a teacher. No one claims to know who this teacher

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Speaker 1: is or to have seen it directly. There are accounts

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Speaker 1: of Oude doing stuff like this later in life, but

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Speaker 1: I think that just makes people assume, well, if he

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Speaker 1: did that twenty years later. He must have done that

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Speaker 1: when he was ten, And that's nonsense, right.

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Speaker 2: Right, That's that's personal myth building.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think this is him myth building and cop

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Speaker 1: being his dad's I think that. And this isn't just

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Speaker 1: me thinking that because it's easier. We have some accounts

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Speaker 1: from some of his teachers, because Ude went to really

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Speaker 1: nice schools for most of his education, and the most

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Speaker 1: detailed account we have from one of his teachers comes

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Speaker 1: from a foreign teacher who worked in his because like

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Speaker 1: these are nicer schools in Iraq, a lot of the

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Speaker 1: teachers are foreigners. Dina Bitley from Yorkshire in the north

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Speaker 1: of England married a Kurdish man back in the nineteen

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Speaker 1: seventies and wound up working at a private school and

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Speaker 1: bag Dad when Ude Hussein is pretty a young kid.

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Speaker 1: Iraq has a long tradition of private school staff with

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Speaker 1: foreign teachers for the children of the elite and wealthy,

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Speaker 1: and even in Saddam's area, these people were respected professionals

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Speaker 1: who enjoyed a high degree of protection. The is certainly

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Speaker 1: not going to be killing like a white European teacher.

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Speaker 2: Right, So that did we would like know about it

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Speaker 2: like this did not have heard have been safety was nineteen.

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Speaker 1: Eighty now he also had Iraqi teachers. But again I

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Speaker 1: think someone would have said specific like we would hear

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Speaker 1: something besides, like he killed a teacher for being rude

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Speaker 1: to his girlfriend. We would have more of that story,

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Speaker 1: I think if it were real. And again, this just

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Speaker 1: doesn't comport with Dina's time with him when he was

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Speaker 1: very young in two thousand and three, and this is

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Speaker 1: like the height of Iraq war fever. Dina recalled to

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Speaker 1: ABC that time in her life when she was teaching

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Speaker 1: in Iraq and Ude was her student. He would have

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Speaker 1: been eleven years old at this point and prayer that

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Speaker 1: article quote Saddam Hussein, then second in command, was already

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Speaker 1: a powerful figure at the time. Ude arrived at school

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Speaker 1: with bodyguards, But she recalls a normal child who was bright, cheerful,

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Speaker 1: and responsive to discipline. He was always grinning and happy,

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Speaker 1: and as soon as they knew who he was, the

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Speaker 1: other children were a little bit wary. But he certainly

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Speaker 1: wasn't a bully, she said. People would like me to

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Speaker 1: say that he had two heads and was an unbearable pupil.

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Speaker 1: He wasn't asked about Uday's current reputation. She said it

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Speaker 1: must have been around the time of the nineteen ninety

401
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Speaker 1: one goal for when there were stories in the papers.

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Speaker 1: I don't know how true they are about his murderous ways.

403
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Speaker 1: That did surprise me because he was never aggressive or

404
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Speaker 1: a problem in class, she said, I had a good

405
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Speaker 1: relationship with him. He never tried to pull rank. He

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Speaker 1: certainly never said to me, do you realize who I am?

407
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Speaker 1: You know?

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Speaker 2: So Ude got the pleasure to be in class on

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Speaker 2: his report.

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Speaker 1: Card, right right, right. It just sounds like a real

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Speaker 1: kid as opposed to this like violent murderer, seleven year

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Speaker 1: old that, like a lot of news stories want you

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Speaker 1: to believe that, like this kid is obsessed with death

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Speaker 1: as a child. Naturally, a lot.

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Speaker 2: Of what what I do on my show, and I'm

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Speaker 2: writing about these these men who become terrible, these men

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Speaker 2: who commit these terrible acts. They are not like ontological evil.

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Speaker 2: They were not They did not emerge from the womb

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Speaker 2: as a monster. It's a human guy who became fucked

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Speaker 2: up over time, sometimes for a discernible reason.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, and that's always It's very rare.

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Speaker 2: For someone to be born monstrous.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and again UDA's gonna do monsters. We're gonna be

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Speaker 1: talking all about the nightmarag stuff he does. I'm not

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Speaker 1: at all trying to mitigate. I just really want to

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Speaker 1: emphasize it.

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Speaker 2: I think it motually makes it more frightening, right that

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Speaker 2: this was just a human man who became this way.

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Speaker 2: But it's I don't know, it's more comforting sometimes to

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Speaker 2: write these people off.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Oh, sometimes just ontological evil exists in the world, and

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Speaker 2: there he is.

434
00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:06,480
Speaker 1: It's easier to believe that than that, Like, yeah, this

435
00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:08,560
Speaker 1: kid could have been a perfectly nice child at eleven,

436
00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:10,240
Speaker 1: and then four or five years later because of the

437
00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:14,359
Speaker 1: shit his dad exposes him to a way scarier person,

438
00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:17,040
Speaker 1: you know, Like, that's just more upsetting.

439
00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:19,439
Speaker 2: It's a more complicated and upsetting story. Yeah.

440
00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:22,320
Speaker 1: Yeah. And again it's not that there's not fear around

441
00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:24,560
Speaker 1: this kid then, it's just the fear is clearly not

442
00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:26,280
Speaker 1: because he's a he's a maniac.

443
00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:29,679
Speaker 2: If I upset this child, his dad will kill my

444
00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:31,200
Speaker 2: face exactly exactly.

445
00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:33,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, And Dina was like, I'm glad, like said, I'm

446
00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:35,520
Speaker 1: never came to parents evening, and I'm glad he didn't,

447
00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:38,400
Speaker 1: Like I had, I knew stories about him at the time, Right,

448
00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:43,760
Speaker 1: I didn't want to meet the guy. Yeah, you don't

449
00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:46,840
Speaker 1: want to have that one. And she also stated that

450
00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:49,720
Speaker 1: her colleagues, her Iraqi colleagues, were surprised that she was

451
00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:53,000
Speaker 1: willing to discipline Uday when he did misbehave. They were

452
00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:55,160
Speaker 1: too worried of his father to discipline it. Once again,

453
00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:57,520
Speaker 1: is it's based on him doing stuff? It's based on

454
00:21:57,560 --> 00:22:00,720
Speaker 1: Saddam right? Uh? She told another one other story I

455
00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:03,960
Speaker 1: find particularly interesting. He was leaping about in class one day,

456
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:05,520
Speaker 1: so I took him by a tuft of hair and

457
00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:07,320
Speaker 1: sat him down. I said, we don't do this. I

458
00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:10,520
Speaker 1: am teaching, you are learning, now sit down. Another teacher

459
00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:13,240
Speaker 1: watching through the classroom window was horrified. She said to

460
00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:14,919
Speaker 1: me later, do you know who that is? It's a

461
00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:17,920
Speaker 1: dumb son. And this anecdote tells us a couple of things.

462
00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:19,960
Speaker 1: What is that there's enough fear around his family again

463
00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:22,760
Speaker 1: that most people don't want to discipline ude and that

464
00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:26,200
Speaker 1: must have had an effect on him, but Dina does

465
00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:30,400
Speaker 1: and nothing happens to her. Right. And it's also interesting

466
00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:33,880
Speaker 1: UDA's reaction to being chastised by his teacher. You could

467
00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:36,399
Speaker 1: see like the crazy version of this kid would have

468
00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:39,000
Speaker 1: gotten furious at her embarrassing him and would have had

469
00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:39,640
Speaker 1: some plan.

470
00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:41,480
Speaker 2: For Riven or had her killed.

471
00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:44,040
Speaker 1: Or Ude gets a haircut, so he has his barber

472
00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:46,000
Speaker 1: trim off the bit of hair that she'd grabbed him by,

473
00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:48,720
Speaker 1: and he like smiles and points it out, which is

474
00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:52,000
Speaker 1: like malicious compliance maybe, but that doesn't that doesn't suggest

475
00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:54,560
Speaker 1: a homicidal mind. That seems like a normal eleven year

476
00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:56,720
Speaker 1: old boy, you know, a rich kid maybe, but like.

477
00:22:56,840 --> 00:22:58,920
Speaker 2: Pretty much, she lived, she lived to tell the tale.

478
00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:03,800
Speaker 1: She lived to tell the tale, you know. Dina added,

479
00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:05,760
Speaker 1: he was not a high flyer, but he did his best.

480
00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:07,760
Speaker 1: He was always smiling, a bit of a clown. Wode

481
00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:10,520
Speaker 1: picked up a lovely Yorkshire accent from me. He's probably

482
00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:12,480
Speaker 1: still got it. It was nice because it reminded me

483
00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:16,120
Speaker 1: of home. So the Yorkshire folks in our audience. If

484
00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:19,960
Speaker 1: you're wondering how this fucker sounds as he's torturing soccer players,

485
00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:25,160
Speaker 1: football players like you. Sorry, that's not your false It's

486
00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:28,560
Speaker 1: not Dina's fault trying to teach the poor fucker English,

487
00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:29,520
Speaker 1: not pourfucker.

488
00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:33,400
Speaker 2: So obviously ridiculous.

489
00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:36,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's really funny to think of, and I

490
00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:38,600
Speaker 1: want you all to keep that thought in your mind

491
00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:49,840
Speaker 1: as we take a little trip down advertiser Lane and

492
00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:54,399
Speaker 1: we're back. Oh, I just got an email about a

493
00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:58,560
Speaker 1: FIFA party in Portland. That sounds awful. I don't think

494
00:23:58,560 --> 00:23:59,280
Speaker 1: I'm gonna be doing that.

495
00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:02,760
Speaker 3: Should be RSVP, absolutely not.

496
00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:07,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, RSVP, no, thank you, I don't like. I don't like.

497
00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:15,000
Speaker 1: Nope them, Molly, Sophie, shall we dive back in? Yep? Okay.

498
00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:17,719
Speaker 1: So Ouda's dead now, obviously, but he was noted as

499
00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:20,560
Speaker 1: speaking English very well, and all of the other hard

500
00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:23,080
Speaker 1: facts we have about his education comport with Dina's story.

501
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:25,400
Speaker 1: He wasn't a great student, but he wasn't a bad one.

502
00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:27,720
Speaker 1: And there aren't really any clear incredible claims that he

503
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:30,919
Speaker 1: was involved in hardcore violence. There are some, but not

504
00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:34,119
Speaker 1: any that I find super believable. Until he's fifteen and

505
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:36,879
Speaker 1: his dad starts taking him to see and possibly help

506
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:41,520
Speaker 1: out in the torture chambers that he's operating, right, Yeah,

507
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:44,000
Speaker 1: And I think that, you know, assuming that's true, and

508
00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:47,080
Speaker 1: I think it does, it's pretty consistent. I can see

509
00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:49,800
Speaker 1: this being what sort of changes him because by the

510
00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:53,199
Speaker 1: time he's in an adolescent Saddam is looking at his

511
00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:55,720
Speaker 1: eldest son as the heir apparent. But that's not going

512
00:24:55,800 --> 00:25:00,240
Speaker 1: to last like forever, right, Uday's going to start to

513
00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:04,080
Speaker 1: really like change and take a turn for the brutal

514
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:06,639
Speaker 1: as a young adult. It's a little unclear to me

515
00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:10,280
Speaker 1: when exactly that starts, but I can definitely see a

516
00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:12,800
Speaker 1: lot of this being the result of Saddam wanting to

517
00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:16,399
Speaker 1: raise his air to be strong and powerful and just

518
00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:18,840
Speaker 1: kind of destroying this kid's mind and turning him into

519
00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:22,200
Speaker 1: a dangerous, homicidal maniac because Saddam doesn't do the same

520
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:25,000
Speaker 1: thing with Kuse. The funniest thing about maybe there's some

521
00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:26,960
Speaker 1: fundamental difference in the two of them. I don't know,

522
00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:29,280
Speaker 1: but it kind of reads to me just like he

523
00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:31,280
Speaker 1: got better at being a parent in between the two

524
00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:32,960
Speaker 1: and was like, Oh, I fucked up the main kid.

525
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:35,080
Speaker 1: I got to pick a new air. I'm not gonna

526
00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:37,160
Speaker 1: make it. I'm i gotta make this next one turn

527
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:37,919
Speaker 1: out more normal.

528
00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:40,760
Speaker 2: Say think he's an irma bomback quote. Right, Children are

529
00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:43,400
Speaker 2: like pancakes. You have to throw the first one out.

530
00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:46,440
Speaker 1: Right, Right. That's kind of how Sadam treats Uda after

531
00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:48,840
Speaker 1: a point. But at this era, Uda is still looking

532
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:50,959
Speaker 1: like the air apparent, you know, and he hasn't done

533
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:55,399
Speaker 1: anything too crazy. So one person who claims to have

534
00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:59,320
Speaker 1: attended private school with Ude is Latif Yahya, and you

535
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:02,360
Speaker 1: may have heard of this guy. He also becomes particularly

536
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:06,200
Speaker 1: famous in the post Golf War period and then again

537
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:10,840
Speaker 1: right before Operation Iraqi Freedom, when we invaded Iraq for

538
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:14,760
Speaker 1: the second and really really illegal time. Right, So, if

539
00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:18,080
Speaker 1: you've heard of Latif Yaya, doctor Latif Yaya, it's because

540
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:21,320
Speaker 1: he's going to claim to have been forced to serve

541
00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:24,879
Speaker 1: as Ude's body double. You've probably heard of Saddam's body doubles,

542
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:27,640
Speaker 1: the whole family, a lot of stories. They may all

543
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 1: be lies. By the way, I can't prove We'll thought

544
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:32,199
Speaker 1: I made you a dedicated story, I can't actually prove that.

545
00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:34,359
Speaker 1: Like they had body doubles in the way it was

546
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:37,320
Speaker 1: usually reported, everyone takes it as red. But then when

547
00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:39,280
Speaker 1: you look into like, okay, well did they find any

548
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:40,800
Speaker 1: of those guys, and it's like, no, they never did.

549
00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:43,720
Speaker 1: Oh that's weird. It's weird that like the actual individual

550
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:46,840
Speaker 1: body doubles, the guys who claimed they were always have

551
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:49,959
Speaker 1: really sketchy stories that you can't back up, and the

552
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:52,199
Speaker 1: evidence like the body doubles that were supposed to be

553
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:54,719
Speaker 1: found mostly weren't there, and it kind of looks like

554
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:57,600
Speaker 1: maybe instead of having a stable of comedic body doubles,

555
00:26:57,640 --> 00:26:59,640
Speaker 1: it just was like some of his guards who looked

556
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:01,879
Speaker 1: like him could also like, if you just want to

557
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:03,320
Speaker 1: like run a dude out, he might look like the

558
00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:04,920
Speaker 1: boss to see if anyone's going to try to shoot

559
00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:07,080
Speaker 1: at him or something. And maybe it wasn't as crazy

560
00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:09,159
Speaker 1: elaborate as as all the news reported.

561
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:11,480
Speaker 2: Wo I was just watching v and there was like

562
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:14,440
Speaker 2: a plot line in Deep where where her like primary

563
00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:18,520
Speaker 2: secret service assigned to her looks like her from the back. Yeah, Like,

564
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:20,800
Speaker 2: it's not a body double. It's just like exactly, if

565
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:22,200
Speaker 2: somebody's gonna shoot you in the back of the head,

566
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:24,040
Speaker 2: maybe they'll shoot so.

567
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:28,080
Speaker 1: Much late nineties early two thousands comedy relied upon fucking

568
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:31,440
Speaker 1: Saddam Hussein body doubles. Like that was a really big

569
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:33,640
Speaker 1: I don't know why in the media and it just anyway,

570
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:36,439
Speaker 1: but this guy Latifyaya is going to claim to have

571
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:39,760
Speaker 1: been UDA's body double, and so a lot of our

572
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:42,840
Speaker 1: best Uday stories, the wildest stories of Uda being a

573
00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:44,919
Speaker 1: maniac come from doctor Latif Yaya.

574
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:46,920
Speaker 2: Oh, so from a guy who might be making them up.

575
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:50,520
Speaker 1: He's definitely making it. Latifiyaya's for sure a kan man,

576
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:53,960
Speaker 1: a huge con man. He definitely lied about it onto stuff,

577
00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:56,879
Speaker 1: and there's zero evidence whatsoever he was ever UDA's body double.

578
00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:01,160
Speaker 1: However he may have known Uda, he didn't know him

579
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:04,679
Speaker 1: at all, because there is some evidence that he may

580
00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:06,639
Speaker 1: have been connected to the regime in some like kind

581
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:07,960
Speaker 1: of corrupt ways, like.

582
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:12,000
Speaker 2: A little bit of truth on the mat, like a

583
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:13,560
Speaker 2: little new get of truth.

584
00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:17,520
Speaker 1: He denies that entirely. There's just allegations. I don't fully

585
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:19,600
Speaker 1: know what's going on with this guy, but there's not

586
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:22,480
Speaker 1: there's no reason to really think he was Ude's body double.

587
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:24,800
Speaker 1: But he may have in fact known Uday. He came

588
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:27,600
Speaker 1: from a wealthy family and bag dad. He claims he

589
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:30,679
Speaker 1: and Ude went to the same like primary school, private school,

590
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:33,000
Speaker 1: like private primary school, and they very well may have.

591
00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:36,800
Speaker 1: I can't disprove that, so I will read you some

592
00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:39,200
Speaker 1: of his accounts, but I need you to remember, this

593
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:42,160
Speaker 1: guy is for sure a liar, So I don't know.

594
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:44,880
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna tell you to take that. You're gonna

595
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:46,840
Speaker 1: run into this guy anytime you read about Uday. So

596
00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 1: I don't want to ignore him because then people will

597
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:50,920
Speaker 1: be like, why didn't you include this guy? Well, because

598
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:52,800
Speaker 1: he's a fucking liar. But I will tell you some

599
00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:55,080
Speaker 1: of what he says, because again he may have known Uda,

600
00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:57,920
Speaker 1: there's some reason to believe that he just definitely wasn't

601
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:00,600
Speaker 1: doing what he said he was. Uh. So here's his

602
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 1: account of supposedly Ude in like high school. Basically, first

603
00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:08,200
Speaker 1: came the bodyguards, then Uday, usually in a T shirt

604
00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:10,920
Speaker 1: and jeans like a cowboy. His hair was longer than ours,

605
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:13,360
Speaker 1: and he wore it in an afro, like Jimmy Hendrix.

606
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:15,680
Speaker 1: After a few weeks, we finally got used to the

607
00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:19,480
Speaker 1: daily performance. Ude was never friendly, never normal, never conventional,

608
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:21,920
Speaker 1: and I actually found him repugnant from the very first.

609
00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:24,120
Speaker 1: He had no respect for the teachers or anyone else

610
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:25,920
Speaker 1: who tried to tell him what to do. He couldn't

611
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:28,360
Speaker 1: care less about tests or homework or anything. There were

612
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:30,400
Speaker 1: twenty four of us in the class, and while everyone

613
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:33,000
Speaker 1: else worked hard to succeed, Ude wasn't interested. If a

614
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:35,120
Speaker 1: teacher tried to call him to the blackboard, Uda would

615
00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:36,720
Speaker 1: throw chalk at him and order him to change the

616
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:39,800
Speaker 1: subject or simply to leave him alone. He came when

617
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:42,200
Speaker 1: he wanted to, left when he wanted to, and basically

618
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:44,720
Speaker 1: did whatever he wanted. He never took his textbooks home

619
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:46,760
Speaker 1: with him, and nonetheless he received the best grades at

620
00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:50,520
Speaker 1: the end of the school year. And I don't actually

621
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:53,480
Speaker 1: have that much trouble believing it. You know that, Again,

622
00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:55,600
Speaker 1: this guy may have been in position to have known ude,

623
00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:59,960
Speaker 1: and that's not necessarily inconsistent with like five or six

624
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:02,960
Speaker 1: years later, the kid that we heard about earlier, especially

625
00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:05,480
Speaker 1: going through some rough years with his dad, exactly the.

626
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:08,480
Speaker 2: Kind of behavior I would expect from someone who doesn't

627
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:10,640
Speaker 2: have no said to him, You're not gonna punish h

628
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:13,959
Speaker 2: You're not gonna flunk him, So why why would he

629
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:16,680
Speaker 2: He's a teenage teenager, sure for sure.

630
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:19,440
Speaker 1: And again, as I just said, I think La tif

631
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:24,240
Speaker 1: Yaya is not a super honest guy. But also if

632
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:26,120
Speaker 1: you're gonna be running a con like that, there are

633
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:29,240
Speaker 1: often based on some truths and there's evidence, you know,

634
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:32,200
Speaker 1: it's not impossible, So I don't find that as super.

635
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 2: This sounds super resief description. Yeah, of course he's disrespectful

636
00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 2: to his teachers. What are they gonna do?

637
00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:42,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, exactly right. So Yaya claims Udeo obeyed no

638
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:45,480
Speaker 1: rules and even broke the strictest taboo of all girls.

639
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 1: This means that one time he brought his girlfriend to

640
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:51,280
Speaker 1: class with him. Yaya describes him enjoying the teacher's helplessness

641
00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:54,000
Speaker 1: when Ude ordered him to continue teaching while he made

642
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:56,680
Speaker 1: out with his girlfriend. He claims this teacher was gone

643
00:30:56,760 --> 00:30:59,040
Speaker 1: the next day and none of us ever saw him again.

644
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:01,400
Speaker 1: And I think that that's a lie. And I guess

645
00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:03,720
Speaker 1: I might be able to believe that he knew Ude

646
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:05,720
Speaker 1: a little, or knew him at a distance and just

647
00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:09,120
Speaker 1: kind of added some bullshit too. I don't know, maybe

648
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:12,120
Speaker 1: this is all like, but there's one more study of

649
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:15,600
Speaker 1: Udai school days and Yaya's questionable book that I will include.

650
00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:19,680
Speaker 1: He claims that in nineteen eighty, soon after Saddam took

651
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:24,360
Speaker 1: power in the front power right, like, he's no longer

652
00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:26,240
Speaker 1: kind of sitting in the back portuning to be the VP,

653
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:29,320
Speaker 1: Ude asked Yaya to paint a picture of his father

654
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 1: as a congratulations gift. So Yaya says he took this

655
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:35,040
Speaker 1: as an honor initially, and he finishes a painting of

656
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:37,520
Speaker 1: Saddam Hussein and he gives it to Uday in class,

657
00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:40,040
Speaker 1: and the dictator's son, he is really happy and compliments

658
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:43,560
Speaker 1: him and quote, he heaped me with compliments, simply perfect,

659
00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:46,800
Speaker 1: simply perfect. He lisped because he had slightly protruding teeth

660
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 1: and thus a slight speech defect, although no one ever

661
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:52,920
Speaker 1: mentioned it. This is interesting. I found one other account

662
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:56,080
Speaker 1: at least that Ude had a speech impediment that I

663
00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:58,280
Speaker 1: can like to a separate person. So at least a

664
00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:00,440
Speaker 1: couple of people have said that. It's weird to me

665
00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:03,200
Speaker 1: that his English teacher didn't notice it. Maybe he didn't

666
00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:05,520
Speaker 1: have a lisp in English. I know, I guess that's

667
00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:07,520
Speaker 1: that's possible. I don't know, but a.

668
00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:10,240
Speaker 2: Lisp specifically, it is like a Isn't it like a

669
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:12,760
Speaker 2: structural thing in your mind? It's like something you're doing

670
00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:14,920
Speaker 2: with your mouth that you would do in any language.

671
00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:16,760
Speaker 2: I assist, I mean, we can speak language.

672
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:21,520
Speaker 1: My momus a speech language pathologist, ironically, but I don't

673
00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:23,200
Speaker 1: know shit, so I'm not going to try to guess more.

674
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:26,000
Speaker 1: I can't say that he's like because other people do

675
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:28,000
Speaker 1: talk about him having it. It's just interesting that his

676
00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:30,640
Speaker 1: teacher didn't seem to mention that either. And I could

677
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:32,680
Speaker 1: also see this him kind of wanting to make fun

678
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:35,120
Speaker 1: of Uday, and this was the time in which it

679
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:37,760
Speaker 1: was more acceptable. Obviously there's nothing wrong with him, was

680
00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:40,400
Speaker 1: speeching impediment, But in the nineties it was a lot

681
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:43,120
Speaker 1: more acceptable to like mock people for stuff like that,

682
00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:45,800
Speaker 1: Like people did that a lot more openly. And this

683
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:47,640
Speaker 1: is kind of a shitty guy, So that might just

684
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:53,160
Speaker 1: be what he's doing here. I don't actually know, so yeah, yeah, Yeah.

685
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:55,920
Speaker 1: Says that Ude was thrilled and start seeking him out

686
00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:57,840
Speaker 1: and trying to hang out with him every day after

687
00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:00,719
Speaker 1: getting this painting of Saddam and quote he even promised

688
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:02,720
Speaker 1: he would give me everything I wanted, he would sort

689
00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:06,000
Speaker 1: it all out. But Yaya claims he instinctively knew to

690
00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:08,600
Speaker 1: keep Ude at a distance because he wasn't comfortable at

691
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 1: their peers kept pointing out how similar they looked, that, like, wow,

692
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:13,720
Speaker 1: you guys really look a lot alike, and they looked

693
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:16,320
Speaker 1: like he still look kind of similar. Little Yeah, I

694
00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:20,960
Speaker 1: don't look crazily but somewhat Yeah, Doctor Latif Yaya and Ude.

695
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:24,960
Speaker 1: Now I'll caution against giving again too much credence to

696
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:27,040
Speaker 1: anything in this fucker's book, but it's not too wild

697
00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:29,840
Speaker 1: to claim. Yaya claims that he and Ude lost touch

698
00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:32,560
Speaker 1: after graduating, like you do, and we'll hear more of

699
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:36,200
Speaker 1: Yahya's claims next episode. We will talk about him more.

700
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:40,520
Speaker 1: But let's get back to Ude. So after graduating, you

701
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:42,840
Speaker 1: know the school, the high school where he and Yaya

702
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:45,760
Speaker 1: went together, Ude went to Baghdad Medical College. And you

703
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:49,080
Speaker 1: can kind of gather how legitimately he got intro. He

704
00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:52,160
Speaker 1: earned his introduction to Baghdad Medical College by the fact

705
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:55,400
Speaker 1: that he dropped out three days later. Oh, his medical

706
00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:58,880
Speaker 1: school for ninety six hours, so like he.

707
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:01,440
Speaker 2: Wouldn't have even attended very lectures at that point. I

708
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 2: don't know if he attended any He signed up for classes,

709
00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:06,080
Speaker 2: he got to the door and he went home.

710
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:08,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, No, he might have getten spooked by his

711
00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:14,000
Speaker 1: first stethoscope. It's they got he didn't doctor Ude Hussein. No,

712
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:15,960
Speaker 1: probably not a good idea.

713
00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:18,239
Speaker 2: Okay, I looked it up, and maybe it's just I mean,

714
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:20,600
Speaker 2: they're just like two guys who both have a mustache.

715
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:25,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's that's the other thing. And this is

716
00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:28,640
Speaker 1: also part of the if you if you read like

717
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:33,200
Speaker 1: the some of the like Saddam Hussein body double stories.

718
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:36,200
Speaker 1: Having been to a rack a good amount of times,

719
00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:38,440
Speaker 1: I could just see those being stories of like, well,

720
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:39,759
Speaker 1: they were just looking for a guy who's kind of

721
00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:42,120
Speaker 1: said on size and had a mustache because they needed

722
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:44,680
Speaker 1: somebody at a distance for a minute. But that's not

723
00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:46,759
Speaker 1: as crazy as he's got, like this team of men

724
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:49,200
Speaker 1: who live their entire lives pretending to be him and

725
00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:52,279
Speaker 1: get like facial surgery. You know, I don't know which

726
00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:55,720
Speaker 1: is true. So he drops out of Bagdad Medical College,

727
00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:59,040
Speaker 1: and next he starts taking classes at the College of Engineering,

728
00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:02,160
Speaker 1: where he got a bachelor's degree, and then he attends

729
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:04,880
Speaker 1: military Academy and he writes a thesis on the Iran

730
00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:08,399
Speaker 1: Iraq War. He's trying different things. Yeah, he's trying to.

731
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:11,040
Speaker 2: Be a doctor, be a legendeer, be a general.

732
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:13,279
Speaker 1: Who knows yes, yeah, exactly. He needs to he needs

733
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:16,399
Speaker 1: to establish his bona fides as like this is why

734
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:19,640
Speaker 1: I'm I'm good to follow in my father's footsteps. You know,

735
00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:22,080
Speaker 1: I have the military experience. I have this, you know,

736
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:26,080
Speaker 1: professional experience. Now he's not really doing much of any

737
00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:29,960
Speaker 1: work here. His thesis is nearly universally agreed to have

738
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:32,799
Speaker 1: been written by like a professional military advisor in the

739
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:36,520
Speaker 1: Iraqi Army. He just like writes it for Udai, which

740
00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:39,440
Speaker 1: would be nice. Although I guess in the United States,

741
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:41,319
Speaker 1: if Pete Hegseth wrote your essay, I don't think it

742
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:42,319
Speaker 1: would get you very much.

743
00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:46,000
Speaker 2: So I guess it depends on who's grading.

744
00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:50,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, because it's on who's grading. Per George Woodwards article quote.

745
00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:53,720
Speaker 1: While at university, Ude wanted to marry a fellow student

746
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:56,200
Speaker 1: from a noble Iraqi family, but his father refused. He

747
00:35:56,239 --> 00:35:59,320
Speaker 1: wanted a bride from within the family clan. Ude obeyed,

748
00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:01,800
Speaker 1: but from then on was spoken of as a serial rapist.

749
00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:04,880
Speaker 1: Girls were allegedly abducted for him and forced into sex.

750
00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:07,240
Speaker 1: One of the most famous stories says that a bride

751
00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:09,560
Speaker 1: was kidnapped for Ude on the second day of her wedding.

752
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:11,680
Speaker 1: After the rape, she could not live with the horror

753
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:14,120
Speaker 1: and took her own life, and the groom, by Ude's order,

754
00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:18,680
Speaker 1: was hanged as a preventative measure. Now that's an awful story,

755
00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:21,360
Speaker 1: and you hear a couple versions of it, so there

756
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:24,120
Speaker 1: it either means either he did stuff like this several times,

757
00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:27,239
Speaker 1: or like one person told this story about him and

758
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:29,520
Speaker 1: maybe pieces of it were true and other pieces aren't,

759
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:32,839
Speaker 1: but people just started spinning it off. It's very hard

760
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:36,120
Speaker 1: for me to tell because there's slightly different versions of

761
00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:38,640
Speaker 1: this story and I don't know are these evidence of

762
00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:40,880
Speaker 1: him doing it a bunch or is this evidence of

763
00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:43,439
Speaker 1: like the same because a lot of these come from

764
00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:46,680
Speaker 1: like people dissidents who leave Saddam's Iraq and are telling

765
00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:50,200
Speaker 1: all sorts of horrible stories. And I don't doubt some

766
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:51,960
Speaker 1: amount of this is happening. It's just hard to tell

767
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:55,080
Speaker 1: what is happening and which stories are true and which

768
00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:58,440
Speaker 1: ones are like the in repetition of something that has

769
00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:01,440
Speaker 1: changed over telling about bunch of times. Right, I guess too.

770
00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:04,200
Speaker 2: If you're you know, if he's murky, take us to

771
00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:06,120
Speaker 2: take us a given he is a serial rapist. He

772
00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:09,279
Speaker 2: is committing these sexual crimes. Good evidence that he was

773
00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:12,200
Speaker 2: abducting a woman on her wedding night and raping her.

774
00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:16,680
Speaker 2: Is this sort of worst scenario of this genre of crime?

775
00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:20,040
Speaker 2: This is very This is dictator's son premnocta type shit.

776
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:23,719
Speaker 1: I never doubt the basics of like a dictator's son

777
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:24,960
Speaker 1: committed a lot of rape, but.

778
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:28,840
Speaker 2: The details is, like, what's the worst version of this

779
00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:30,320
Speaker 2: story you could tell.

780
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:34,840
Speaker 1: The theatricality always makes me second guess, like this doesn't

781
00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:38,759
Speaker 1: necessarily always seem like something a person would do, right,

782
00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:40,600
Speaker 1: like not even I don't think he's this bad. I

783
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:42,640
Speaker 1: guess this seems weirdly elaborate, like.

784
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:45,319
Speaker 2: You're getting you're getting jaded, you have done too many

785
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:46,239
Speaker 2: sex crimes.

786
00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:50,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe, and again, so I can't for reasons like that.

787
00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:52,560
Speaker 1: I can't throw all this stuff out either, because he

788
00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:57,239
Speaker 1: does some pretty crazy shit. Yeah. And one of the

789
00:37:57,280 --> 00:37:59,200
Speaker 1: reasons that kind of makes me hesitant about this is

790
00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:01,440
Speaker 1: that one of the most most detailed accounts of this

791
00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:04,239
Speaker 1: kind of like him murdering, like raping a woman after

792
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:07,240
Speaker 1: her wedding and like they're being murders after that, comes

793
00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:10,320
Speaker 1: from Latif Yaya. Right, He's got a story that sounds

794
00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:12,160
Speaker 1: a lot like the one I just recounted to you

795
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:15,080
Speaker 1: that I found from a two thousand and nine interview

796
00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:17,600
Speaker 1: he gave to The National And this is in an

797
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:20,880
Speaker 1: article on Michael Thibodeau's This is years after Uday's dead.

798
00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:24,640
Speaker 1: He tells of a grotesque episode in El Habanya, Iraq's

799
00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:28,120
Speaker 1: leading honeymoon resort, when Ude noticed a newlywed couple walking

800
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:30,759
Speaker 1: hand in hand and called over to them. Ude was

801
00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:34,440
Speaker 1: livid when they ignored him. Mister Yaya attempted to persuade

802
00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:36,960
Speaker 1: Ude to leave the couple alone, pointing out that they

803
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:39,359
Speaker 1: had only been married a few days. Ude snapped back,

804
00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:42,360
Speaker 1: this isn't your business. UDA's pimps beat up the husband

805
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:44,360
Speaker 1: and forced the beautiful bride to his suite, where he

806
00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:47,040
Speaker 1: raped her and shame. In despair, she later threw herself

807
00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:49,280
Speaker 1: to her death from the fourth floor window of the building.

808
00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:51,719
Speaker 1: Mister Yaya says the husband was accused of trying to

809
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:53,960
Speaker 1: kill Ude and sentenced to death, but was later spared

810
00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:56,320
Speaker 1: because of his long service in a war against Iran,

811
00:38:56,400 --> 00:38:59,000
Speaker 1: for which he was awarded medals. The man, Yaya claims,

812
00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 1: was one of those who nearly killed Uda in a

813
00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:05,640
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety six assassination attempt, and I have that. So

814
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:07,840
Speaker 1: this is part of why I have trouble believing. Specifically,

815
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:10,719
Speaker 1: is that we know this story Yaya gives claims from

816
00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:14,360
Speaker 1: when he supposedly Uday's body double and he almost certainly wasn't.

817
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:17,239
Speaker 1: So that means I don't believe this story. And that's

818
00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:19,120
Speaker 1: so similar to the other one that it makes me

819
00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:24,080
Speaker 1: wonder how much of these specific really theatrical stories of

820
00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:27,480
Speaker 1: rape are just sort of like things that enemies concocted

821
00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:29,160
Speaker 1: in that period of time when it was profitable to

822
00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:29,480
Speaker 1: do so.

823
00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:33,880
Speaker 2: And again, kernels of truth, right, So I'm sure they

824
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:37,880
Speaker 2: raped married women who then killed themselves because within their culture,

825
00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:39,840
Speaker 2: she would not be able to go back to her family.

826
00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:44,600
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, and like colonels of truth, I don't kernels

827
00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:46,680
Speaker 1: of truth. It's just there's so much of it that's

828
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:48,479
Speaker 1: like I or but then.

829
00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:49,759
Speaker 2: He tried to kill him, and then he let him

830
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:52,080
Speaker 2: live because of his medals. Like that's too many details.

831
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:55,960
Speaker 1: There's a lot of like, yeah, I don't know, we'll see.

832
00:39:56,239 --> 00:39:58,160
Speaker 1: I'm trying to present you with all this so that,

833
00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:00,320
Speaker 1: like you, the listener, can conclude what you want to

834
00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:04,040
Speaker 1: believe about ude Hussein, But it's hard to It's hard

835
00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:07,400
Speaker 1: to tell for sure with stuff like this. It's so politicized.

836
00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:10,200
Speaker 1: The fact that the US was looking for any excuse

837
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:14,280
Speaker 1: to do a war against Saddam's Iraq makes it hard

838
00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:17,239
Speaker 1: to judge every piece of information as easily as I'd

839
00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:22,799
Speaker 1: otherwise like to. But yeah, anyway, all of this takes

840
00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:26,040
Speaker 1: us up to the early nineteen eighties. During this period

841
00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:28,520
Speaker 1: of time, Iraq was not yet the global pariah state

842
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:30,640
Speaker 1: that it would become after Desert Storm, and it had

843
00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:33,040
Speaker 1: one of the best football teams in the entire Middle East.

844
00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:36,239
Speaker 1: Iraqis had become very proud of their team, which got

845
00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:40,160
Speaker 1: its first foreign manager at the Romanian Cornell, Draghushan in

846
00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:43,760
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty two, and in nineteen sixty five, under his leadership,

847
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:46,560
Speaker 1: they won the Arab Nations Cup. They wanted again. In

848
00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:49,640
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty six, people started calling them by the nickname

849
00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:53,600
Speaker 1: the Lions of Mesopotamia, which is an undoubtedly cool name

850
00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:58,000
Speaker 1: for your football team. Sick. Yeah, that rocks. Yeah, that's

851
00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:00,720
Speaker 1: a dude's rock moment involved.

852
00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:03,320
Speaker 2: I'm surprised there wasn't a real lion on the field.

853
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:04,719
Speaker 2: Where's the lion? Give me a lion?

854
00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:07,640
Speaker 1: I don't know that there wasn't, Molly, and I would

855
00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:10,359
Speaker 1: also like to remind you you've got you've got a

856
00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:14,120
Speaker 1: fucking Romanian man whose last name is basically dragon and

857
00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:17,480
Speaker 1: a team from of iraqis the mustache game in that team.

858
00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:20,839
Speaker 1: We don't have the capability to recreate mustaches that were

859
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:24,880
Speaker 1: that powerful. Like, I need to see this amazing stuff. Yeah,

860
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:28,520
Speaker 1: I can only imagine him in my dreams. There might

861
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:30,920
Speaker 1: actually be pictures of the guy. I didn't look them up,

862
00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:34,759
Speaker 1: but I'd be disappointed if he doesn't have a beautiful mustache.

863
00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:39,279
Speaker 1: So first couple of years that this guy's working, you know,

864
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:42,120
Speaker 1: the Iraqi team in the mid sixties is really starting

865
00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:43,759
Speaker 1: to get off the ground in a big way. It's

866
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:46,520
Speaker 1: looking good and for a new country in Iraq is

867
00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:49,120
Speaker 1: a new country in the mid sixties having like a

868
00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:51,719
Speaker 1: football team that's a huge hit, like one of the

869
00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:54,319
Speaker 1: best in the region, that's a big deal like it's

870
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:57,640
Speaker 1: and so it becomes like integral to like this burgeoning

871
00:41:57,680 --> 00:42:00,400
Speaker 1: sense of national pride that Iraqi people are. You know,

872
00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:04,080
Speaker 1: the team becomes very beloved for this reason. However, after

873
00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:07,840
Speaker 1: the mid sixties they kind of backslide for quite a while.

874
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:10,600
Speaker 1: There's this initial period of greatness, and then through the

875
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:14,000
Speaker 1: late sixties up through much of the seventies, you know,

876
00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:16,880
Speaker 1: there's a lot of unrest and disorder in the country.

877
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:19,560
Speaker 1: Saddam is rising to power and causing a good amount

878
00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:24,080
Speaker 1: of that unrest. It's a rough period for the team.

879
00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:27,200
Speaker 1: So after Saddam takes power and starts a war against

880
00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:32,560
Speaker 1: Iran in nineteen eighty four, that war is consuming Iraqi

881
00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:36,160
Speaker 1: soldiers at a terrifying rate, and Saddam needs something to

882
00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:40,160
Speaker 1: bind the people together and improve morale because the population

883
00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:42,759
Speaker 1: is not happy with this war that did not need

884
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:43,200
Speaker 1: to happen.

885
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:46,160
Speaker 2: And so you're saying, people don't love it when you

886
00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:48,880
Speaker 2: take them into an unnecessary war with Iran, and you

887
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:50,480
Speaker 2: should distract them with soccer.

888
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:55,560
Speaker 1: Yes, Saddam, who's saying something that we wouldn't any leader exactly. Yeah, No,

889
00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:58,640
Speaker 1: it's never happened. Again. Never has a world leader started

890
00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:00,960
Speaker 1: an ill advised war with a and then tried to

891
00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:05,480
Speaker 1: distract the country by a soccer game against Iran. Yeah,

892
00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:06,680
Speaker 1: that's never happened before.

893
00:43:06,719 --> 00:43:07,480
Speaker 2: It's never happened.

894
00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:13,520
Speaker 1: So, yeah, there's wars consuming human beings at a terrifying rate,

895
00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:16,840
Speaker 1: and Saddam needs something to improve morale. I'm going to

896
00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:19,799
Speaker 1: quote from Justin Sherman's article again here. In the hope

897
00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:21,560
Speaker 1: that his son could help rebuild the spirit of the

898
00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:24,960
Speaker 1: nation while also proving himself a worthy successor, Saddam handed

899
00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:27,600
Speaker 1: ude the reigns of both the country's Olympic Committee and

900
00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:31,240
Speaker 1: its football federation. Through sports, Saddam believed that a fervent

901
00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:35,000
Speaker 1: nationalism would return permeating through the sun kissed football pitches

902
00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:37,440
Speaker 1: to the trenches in the desert. The appointment of the

903
00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:40,120
Speaker 1: twenty year old U Day would initially yield historic results.

904
00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:43,120
Speaker 1: Iraq would win the Golf Cup his first year in charge,

905
00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:45,960
Speaker 1: followed by the Arab Cup just a year later. However,

906
00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:48,080
Speaker 1: nothing could prepare them for what was about to come.

907
00:43:48,239 --> 00:43:50,879
Speaker 1: With a dramatic win over Syria and their final match

908
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:53,759
Speaker 1: of qualifiers, Iraq punched their ticket to the nineteen eighty

909
00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:56,480
Speaker 1: six World Cup in Mexico, which to this day represents

910
00:43:56,480 --> 00:44:00,920
Speaker 1: their first and only appearance in the prestigious tournament. So wow,

911
00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:03,719
Speaker 1: pretty good early first two year run for the fail

912
00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:06,120
Speaker 1: for you know, Saddam's Nepo baby son.

913
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:10,160
Speaker 2: But like is that because of his management or were

914
00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:12,319
Speaker 2: they gonna go anyway? And he was just there so.

915
00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:16,160
Speaker 1: Not long before this. And by by the way, I

916
00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:18,600
Speaker 1: should note Iraq is in the World Cup this year.

917
00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:23,120
Speaker 1: This was these are these articles are real? But I

918
00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:26,560
Speaker 1: think this is their first Yeah, qualified for the second

919
00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:29,520
Speaker 1: time in twenty twenty six, so that is something to

920
00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:31,279
Speaker 1: celebrate this year. Like I I love it.

921
00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:32,960
Speaker 2: They can do it, They can do it without any

922
00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:34,080
Speaker 2: day they.

923
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:36,280
Speaker 1: Could they finally did They finally did. It took a while,

924
00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:39,759
Speaker 1: and I have I've loved the country a long time.

925
00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:43,600
Speaker 1: Like it's it's unfortunately, when we're telling Iraqi stories, they're

926
00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:46,640
Speaker 1: often very sad, just because of how difficult that country's

927
00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:49,359
Speaker 1: recent history has been. But it's actually really awesome. I'm

928
00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:51,040
Speaker 1: really happy for them that they made it back to

929
00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:52,600
Speaker 1: the World Cup because that's that's going to mean a

930
00:44:52,640 --> 00:44:54,760
Speaker 1: lot to people, Like we've been talking about, like football

931
00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:57,359
Speaker 1: means a lot to people. Teams like this, especially when

932
00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:00,920
Speaker 1: shit's really hard out there, means a hell of a

933
00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:03,440
Speaker 1: lot to people. So that's actually super nice to hear.

934
00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:07,120
Speaker 1: And that's why Saddam thinks this is a good idea, right,

935
00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:08,600
Speaker 1: And at first it kind of looks like it is.

936
00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:11,759
Speaker 1: You know, Uda pulls the team. It seems like Ude

937
00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:14,360
Speaker 1: pulls the team. Now, what's part of what's really happening

938
00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:16,680
Speaker 1: is they've recently brought on a new coach.

939
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:18,800
Speaker 2: And so that he's telling anything like Udi doesn't know

940
00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:21,040
Speaker 2: shit about managing he's the national soccer team.

941
00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:23,800
Speaker 1: No, And I think this new coach had started before

942
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:25,680
Speaker 1: and it's kind of that's kind of started to but

943
00:45:25,680 --> 00:45:27,520
Speaker 1: he doesn't fuck it up. You gotta give him credit

944
00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:29,600
Speaker 1: for that, Like he doesn't, he doesn't step over his

945
00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:35,759
Speaker 1: own dish, so's, yeah, I don't. I certainly can't say

946
00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:38,080
Speaker 1: that he was bad at the job at this stage, right,

947
00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:39,879
Speaker 1: But it may just be that's because he was too

948
00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:42,319
Speaker 1: nervous to like do anything. So maybe he was just

949
00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:46,360
Speaker 1: listening to his subordinates in this period of time, because

950
00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:48,680
Speaker 1: it's not gonna this is gonna be the only period

951
00:45:48,719 --> 00:45:51,520
Speaker 1: of time where things are like really good, uh for

952
00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:54,239
Speaker 1: the team. But yeah, at first things are going really well,

953
00:45:54,239 --> 00:45:56,560
Speaker 1: and and and at this stage in the story, like

954
00:45:56,600 --> 00:45:59,560
Speaker 1: the Lions of Mesopotamia, it's like a fucking nineties move.

955
00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:01,879
Speaker 1: It's like a Disney movie from like nineteen ninety six.

956
00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:07,000
Speaker 1: Like you've got the dictator's fail son who doesn't particularly

957
00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:09,640
Speaker 1: like football and has never been good at anything and

958
00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:12,200
Speaker 1: is desperate to please his father, and he takes on

959
00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:14,800
Speaker 1: this team that had been great once but they've fallen

960
00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:17,279
Speaker 1: into disrepute, and he welds them together into this like

961
00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:19,560
Speaker 1: group of lovable misfits and they make it to the

962
00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:22,960
Speaker 1: World Cup. Like that's that's a really good Disney watch.

963
00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:26,960
Speaker 1: The movie lost absolutely absolutely if you do not include

964
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:29,640
Speaker 1: anything that happens after the World Cup. It's a great Disney.

965
00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:32,000
Speaker 2: Credits roll over the football pitch.

966
00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:34,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, over the football pitch and the torture chamber.

967
00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:38,560
Speaker 2: No, No, at the World Cup. It ends there.

968
00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:41,640
Speaker 1: It ends there. It ends there. That's right, It ends

969
00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:44,279
Speaker 1: there because there's no torture at the World Cup other

970
00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:50,560
Speaker 1: than having to watch football. There was as well. Yeah,

971
00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:53,320
Speaker 1: there's slaves too, there's slaves too. There's a lot of

972
00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:56,120
Speaker 1: issues top. Yeah. I was trying to go to ads

973
00:46:56,280 --> 00:47:02,480
Speaker 1: after accusing FIFA of complicity and slavery. They definitely are.

974
00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:05,600
Speaker 1: That is a fact. You know what else is a fact? Molly,

975
00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:16,879
Speaker 1: it's time for ads. Wow, we're back. So uh, it's

976
00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:19,120
Speaker 1: in the days right before the World Cup that we

977
00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:21,640
Speaker 1: first start to see science. If and I think this

978
00:47:21,680 --> 00:47:23,920
Speaker 1: is probably likely the success of the Iraqi team in

979
00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:25,840
Speaker 1: New Day's first couple of years is because he mostly

980
00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:28,640
Speaker 1: like stayed out of his own way and let other

981
00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:32,600
Speaker 1: people make decisions. If that's the case, then it's it's

982
00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:35,840
Speaker 1: right before the game that he starts to think maybe

983
00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:39,359
Speaker 1: I am a genius and I should be making more decisions.

984
00:47:39,400 --> 00:47:43,279
Speaker 2: That's exactly the right time to fuck with the team, like.

985
00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:46,200
Speaker 1: Right before you want to start doing it. That's when

986
00:47:46,239 --> 00:47:47,080
Speaker 1: you want to start doing it.

987
00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:49,560
Speaker 2: Let's put different shoes.

988
00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:52,960
Speaker 1: He's accused later of having been a hardcore drug user.

989
00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:55,840
Speaker 1: There's certainly evidence that he used heroin and other like

990
00:47:56,480 --> 00:47:59,359
Speaker 1: pills on and pills and stuff on occasion. I've heard

991
00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:01,600
Speaker 1: allegations that he used a lot of coke. It would

992
00:48:01,600 --> 00:48:03,440
Speaker 1: certainly make sense. I don't know if he's doing that now.

993
00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:06,799
Speaker 1: That could if he's if he's coke because his team

994
00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:09,320
Speaker 1: went to the World Cup, that might explain when he

995
00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:10,920
Speaker 1: decides maybe I need to be making more of the

996
00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:13,200
Speaker 1: decisions I need I can't listen as a coach anymore.

997
00:48:13,239 --> 00:48:14,839
Speaker 1: This is all, but it's got its two day's time,

998
00:48:14,920 --> 00:48:20,600
Speaker 1: you know, I gotta gallut there. Yeah. So he's like,

999
00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:23,200
Speaker 1: while they're, you know, at the World Cup, he gets

1000
00:48:23,200 --> 00:48:26,200
Speaker 1: asked to organize friendly matches while they're there with both

1001
00:48:26,239 --> 00:48:28,080
Speaker 1: Brazil and England, and this is like a big deal.

1002
00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:31,120
Speaker 1: These these don't count for the overall World Cup, but

1003
00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:34,000
Speaker 1: it's still a big deal. Iraq is a new country

1004
00:48:34,160 --> 00:48:38,000
Speaker 1: and their team is really has just started becoming good again.

1005
00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:41,520
Speaker 1: Brazil and England's teams are both very well established, and

1006
00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:44,279
Speaker 1: they're both as like, hey, that's like basically that's a

1007
00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:46,440
Speaker 1: that's a huge compliment, saying we want to do this

1008
00:48:46,520 --> 00:48:48,959
Speaker 1: like game with you. Right, it should be a huge

1009
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:52,239
Speaker 1: thing for Iraq. It's a really among other things, it's

1010
00:48:52,280 --> 00:48:55,719
Speaker 1: the country being kind of invited into the global community

1011
00:48:55,719 --> 00:48:58,040
Speaker 1: in like a really prominent, big way. It's a big deal.

1012
00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:00,759
Speaker 1: It should have been a great moment. Ude says, no,

1013
00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:03,279
Speaker 1: fuck off, we're not having any friendly games because he

1014
00:49:03,280 --> 00:49:05,640
Speaker 1: thinks his guys will lose and then his dad will

1015
00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:08,320
Speaker 1: be angry at him if they lose the friendly games.

1016
00:49:08,320 --> 00:49:10,319
Speaker 1: And it's like, it's not about winning or losing. It's

1017
00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:12,360
Speaker 1: about the fact that you're like part of this community

1018
00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:15,239
Speaker 1: of nations and let your team is. And he can't

1019
00:49:15,239 --> 00:49:18,839
Speaker 1: see that because he's scared of his dad.

1020
00:49:17,239 --> 00:49:20,080
Speaker 2: In fear of loss, that you're gonna have to play

1021
00:49:20,080 --> 00:49:20,920
Speaker 2: those teams eventually.

1022
00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:23,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're gonna have to play him eventually like this

1023
00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:25,239
Speaker 1: in a.

1024
00:49:25,200 --> 00:49:27,359
Speaker 2: Relaxed manner where they're going to go kind of easy on.

1025
00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:31,960
Speaker 1: You, right right, exactly. And also it might make your

1026
00:49:31,960 --> 00:49:35,479
Speaker 1: team better, like playing against might be really good teams. Yeah,

1027
00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:38,520
Speaker 1: it's like and I can believe that he didn't do

1028
00:49:38,560 --> 00:49:40,160
Speaker 1: this because he was scared of his dad. He didn't

1029
00:49:40,160 --> 00:49:42,319
Speaker 1: want to, like he was scared would make him look bad. Right.

1030
00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:44,759
Speaker 1: It's the kind of insecurity you would expect out of

1031
00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:47,239
Speaker 1: a guy like this in this situation.

1032
00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:48,919
Speaker 2: A guy who's seen his dad torture somebody.

1033
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:52,640
Speaker 1: Right, exactly. Yeah, And it makes it it makes it

1034
00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:54,000
Speaker 1: clear why you Day was never going to be a

1035
00:49:54,080 --> 00:49:56,960
Speaker 1: very good team manager. Right. And he makes the further

1036
00:49:57,080 --> 00:49:59,799
Speaker 1: mistake after this of replacing right before the World Cup.

1037
00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:02,799
Speaker 1: He replaces the I mean if he's not technically the

1038
00:50:02,800 --> 00:50:05,759
Speaker 1: team manager, but he is doing that job. And he

1039
00:50:05,880 --> 00:50:08,560
Speaker 1: replaces the guy who had been the official team manager

1040
00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:12,480
Speaker 1: with his assistant right before the match for no real reason. Right,

1041
00:50:12,560 --> 00:50:16,040
Speaker 1: He's just switching people around. He changes the team colors

1042
00:50:16,080 --> 00:50:18,560
Speaker 1: from green and white to yellow and blue, with no

1043
00:50:18,640 --> 00:50:21,920
Speaker 1: consideration that for twenty years Iraqi fans had gotten used

1044
00:50:21,960 --> 00:50:23,840
Speaker 1: to the old colors. He just does it for no reasons.

1045
00:50:23,880 --> 00:50:28,960
Speaker 2: A police are so superstitious, they're so and paranoid. They spoke,

1046
00:50:29,040 --> 00:50:30,160
Speaker 2: they spook like horses.

1047
00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:34,120
Speaker 1: They spook like horses, that's exactly, yeah, and so do fans,

1048
00:50:34,120 --> 00:50:36,719
Speaker 1: to be honest, like, why would you do that? Yeah?

1049
00:50:36,760 --> 00:50:39,239
Speaker 2: There are people out there wearing dirty underwear because it's

1050
00:50:39,239 --> 00:50:41,200
Speaker 2: their lucky panties like, right.

1051
00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:44,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, you can't. You cannot understand how crazy people are

1052
00:50:44,520 --> 00:50:47,000
Speaker 1: about sports. Day I change it, and yeah, I wonder

1053
00:50:47,000 --> 00:50:48,640
Speaker 1: how much of it is that he's not really into

1054
00:50:48,680 --> 00:50:51,360
Speaker 1: sports like that that is emphasized in a lot with

1055
00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:53,880
Speaker 1: Jury's he never really cared all that much other than

1056
00:50:53,880 --> 00:50:57,440
Speaker 1: he didn't want to lose, you know. So Justin Sherman

1057
00:50:57,600 --> 00:50:59,640
Speaker 1: argues that as a result of all this, the Iraqi

1058
00:50:59,640 --> 00:51:01,680
Speaker 1: team are rives in Mexico for the World Cup, quote

1059
00:51:01,680 --> 00:51:04,719
Speaker 1: ill prepared and mentally shackled, And it's possible that by

1060
00:51:04,719 --> 00:51:08,200
Speaker 1: this point Ouday has already started threatening his players. I

1061
00:51:08,200 --> 00:51:10,320
Speaker 1: don't know if he's already started. You know, the allegations

1062
00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:12,120
Speaker 1: of torture don't starting to la after this. I don't

1063
00:51:12,160 --> 00:51:16,040
Speaker 1: know when it actually started. Now. I'm not well suited

1064
00:51:16,040 --> 00:51:19,000
Speaker 1: to the task of judging Iraq's performance at the World Cup,

1065
00:51:19,040 --> 00:51:21,239
Speaker 1: but the accounts I've read all seemed to agree they

1066
00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:24,799
Speaker 1: did a really good job for a new and inexperienced team.

1067
00:51:24,840 --> 00:51:26,920
Speaker 1: You got to remember what's happened here, as Iraq is

1068
00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:29,080
Speaker 1: a team that has just started seeing success again. They

1069
00:51:29,120 --> 00:51:33,520
Speaker 1: won some local championships and kind of it's not a

1070
00:51:33,560 --> 00:51:35,319
Speaker 1: Fluke would be the wrong. But they get they get

1071
00:51:35,360 --> 00:51:37,960
Speaker 1: really lucky, and they make it to the World Cup

1072
00:51:38,280 --> 00:51:40,520
Speaker 1: and they're not really fully ready to be there.

1073
00:51:40,600 --> 00:51:45,919
Speaker 2: And the like playing Brazil is a different situation exactly.

1074
00:51:46,719 --> 00:51:49,359
Speaker 1: And this could be really good for a new team, right,

1075
00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:51,719
Speaker 1: getting into the World Cup this early, getting to play

1076
00:51:51,719 --> 00:51:54,000
Speaker 1: with teams of that caliber that could really like help

1077
00:51:54,080 --> 00:51:57,560
Speaker 1: take move them forward and take them up. Right. And

1078
00:51:57,640 --> 00:52:00,560
Speaker 1: they don't do badly in the World Cup, right, not

1079
00:52:00,719 --> 00:52:03,360
Speaker 1: compared to how new they are, right, they get knocked

1080
00:52:03,400 --> 00:52:06,200
Speaker 1: out pretty early. They only score one goal in all

1081
00:52:06,239 --> 00:52:08,480
Speaker 1: three of their games. However, if you just kind of

1082
00:52:08,480 --> 00:52:09,759
Speaker 1: read it that way, it makes it seem like they

1083
00:52:09,800 --> 00:52:12,080
Speaker 1: did less well than they actually did. And I don't

1084
00:52:12,120 --> 00:52:13,880
Speaker 1: want to short change the team.

1085
00:52:14,920 --> 00:52:17,640
Speaker 2: Getting their all, Like, even though it is a huge

1086
00:52:17,880 --> 00:52:20,880
Speaker 2: losing to a good team doesn't mean you did badly.

1087
00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:24,920
Speaker 2: Like Verde tying up Spain was an incredible win. They

1088
00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:27,279
Speaker 2: didn't win the game exact, that's an incredible win.

1089
00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:30,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And that's what George Woodward points that out

1090
00:52:30,560 --> 00:52:32,719
Speaker 1: in his article for Tribuna, and I want to read

1091
00:52:32,800 --> 00:52:36,080
Speaker 1: from that here quote. After rewatching archive footage from forty

1092
00:52:36,120 --> 00:52:38,279
Speaker 1: years ago, we can see that Iraq looked good but

1093
00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:41,520
Speaker 1: lacked experience of major tournaments. In an evenly matched game

1094
00:52:41,560 --> 00:52:44,120
Speaker 1: with Paraguay, they conceded the only goal from a quickly

1095
00:52:44,160 --> 00:52:46,239
Speaker 1: taken free kick at the end of the first half.

1096
00:52:46,239 --> 00:52:49,880
Speaker 1: They even equalized, but referee picon Akong from Mauritius disallowed

1097
00:52:49,880 --> 00:52:52,360
Speaker 1: the goal he blew for halftime just as the decisive

1098
00:52:52,400 --> 00:52:55,680
Speaker 1: corner was being delivered. Against Belgium, Iraq actually looked better

1099
00:52:55,719 --> 00:52:58,640
Speaker 1: and more dangerous even with ten men. The Belgian scored

1100
00:52:58,680 --> 00:53:00,640
Speaker 1: the winner from a penalty that to day might well

1101
00:53:00,640 --> 00:53:04,080
Speaker 1: have been overturned by vart In the final match at

1102
00:53:04,080 --> 00:53:06,800
Speaker 1: the one hundred thousand seated as Techa against hosts Mexico,

1103
00:53:06,840 --> 00:53:09,440
Speaker 1: who needed to improve their goal difference, the Iraqis defended

1104
00:53:09,480 --> 00:53:12,439
Speaker 1: bravely and conceded only once, so it can be said

1105
00:53:12,480 --> 00:53:15,160
Speaker 1: that they performed with dignity despite their final place in

1106
00:53:15,239 --> 00:53:18,279
Speaker 1: the table. In a good world, if this is like

1107
00:53:18,320 --> 00:53:21,040
Speaker 1: a normal country with a normal leadership, this would be

1108
00:53:21,080 --> 00:53:24,080
Speaker 1: the start of like a really good team, you know

1109
00:53:24,160 --> 00:53:26,719
Speaker 1: that can be from this and make it back right

1110
00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:29,319
Speaker 1: right right. It's there, should have been the start of

1111
00:53:29,320 --> 00:53:33,640
Speaker 1: something great, and it's not. Iraq doesn't make it back again.

1112
00:53:33,760 --> 00:53:37,640
Speaker 1: Until this year to the World Cup and the story.

1113
00:53:37,719 --> 00:53:39,040
Speaker 1: A lot of what we're going to be talking about

1114
00:53:39,040 --> 00:53:41,120
Speaker 1: this week is why because Uda is a big part

1115
00:53:41,120 --> 00:53:43,759
Speaker 1: of why Iraq does not go back, that this promising

1116
00:53:43,840 --> 00:53:48,239
Speaker 1: start does not continue promising because Uda can't accept that

1117
00:53:48,440 --> 00:53:50,719
Speaker 1: just getting to the World Cup was a victory. And

1118
00:53:50,760 --> 00:53:52,760
Speaker 1: I have to presume part of this is because Saddam

1119
00:53:52,840 --> 00:53:56,359
Speaker 1: is a huge asshole to him about losing. So when

1120
00:53:56,400 --> 00:53:59,080
Speaker 1: the team returns home to Baghdad, they're greeted not the

1121
00:53:59,080 --> 00:54:01,200
Speaker 1: way they should have been and is like a team

1122
00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:04,560
Speaker 1: that did really, really well and has a bright future. Instead,

1123
00:54:04,560 --> 00:54:07,640
Speaker 1: he explodes with rage, and in the days and years

1124
00:54:07,680 --> 00:54:10,640
Speaker 1: to come, the Iraqi football team is going to see

1125
00:54:10,719 --> 00:54:13,359
Speaker 1: just how violent Ude Hussein could be. And we'll talk

1126
00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:18,000
Speaker 1: about that in part two. How do you feel it?

1127
00:54:18,719 --> 00:54:20,400
Speaker 2: I'm pumped. I'm ready to watch some soccer.

1128
00:54:20,960 --> 00:54:22,799
Speaker 1: Well, we're just going to talk about it because I

1129
00:54:22,840 --> 00:54:25,319
Speaker 1: don't know much about soccer. But what I do know

1130
00:54:25,360 --> 00:54:28,719
Speaker 1: about Molly is that you have a podcast. That's all

1131
00:54:28,760 --> 00:54:32,600
Speaker 1: I know. I'm like user, you know, I stumbled into

1132
00:54:32,600 --> 00:54:34,680
Speaker 1: work this morning with a sign around my neck that

1133
00:54:34,760 --> 00:54:38,760
Speaker 1: says weird Little Guys hosted by Molly Cocker's. That's already

1134
00:54:38,800 --> 00:54:41,799
Speaker 1: I don't even have a name table. Yeah, yeah, that's right,

1135
00:54:41,840 --> 00:54:43,839
Speaker 1: that's right, that's right. It's something to do with the.

1136
00:54:43,760 --> 00:54:46,160
Speaker 2: German cavalry, the ideal listener.

1137
00:54:46,239 --> 00:54:49,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, that's what we we in fact target directly

1138
00:54:50,080 --> 00:54:55,160
Speaker 1: for Germans several centuries ago, who lost their memories somehow.

1139
00:54:55,560 --> 00:54:58,560
Speaker 1: I don't remember enough of that myth anyway, Molly, anything

1140
00:54:58,560 --> 00:54:59,319
Speaker 1: to say before we go?

1141
00:55:00,320 --> 00:55:03,759
Speaker 2: Uh yeah, listen to Weird Little Guys. It's a good yep,

1142
00:55:04,239 --> 00:55:05,759
Speaker 2: it's fun. You'll love it.

1143
00:55:06,040 --> 00:55:07,040
Speaker 1: You'll love it, you'll love it.

1144
00:55:07,080 --> 00:55:09,000
Speaker 2: Listen to Weird Do you want to hear more about

1145
00:55:09,000 --> 00:55:09,360
Speaker 2: the Klan?

1146
00:55:09,880 --> 00:55:12,880
Speaker 1: You know? Yeah? Yeah, weird little Guys. Oo days a

1147
00:55:12,920 --> 00:55:15,239
Speaker 1: weird little guy. You love weird little guys? If you

1148
00:55:15,280 --> 00:55:18,160
Speaker 1: love weird little guys, listen to Weird Little Guys. I'm

1149
00:55:18,160 --> 00:55:20,880
Speaker 1: not not gonna say that title anymore for a minute.

1150
00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:23,640
Speaker 3: Hey, weird little guys, weird little guys, weird little guys.

1151
00:55:23,640 --> 00:55:25,440
Speaker 1: Nope, Nope, nope, nope, we're done.

1152
00:55:25,560 --> 00:55:26,799
Speaker 2: But so we came up with it. She can say

1153
00:55:26,800 --> 00:55:27,799
Speaker 2: it as many times as she wants.

1154
00:55:27,840 --> 00:55:29,560
Speaker 3: We're a little guys, We're the guys, We're guys, We're

1155
00:55:29,600 --> 00:55:35,160
Speaker 3: little guys. Guys, We're for guys. Behind the Bastards is

1156
00:55:35,160 --> 00:55:37,560
Speaker 3: a production of cool Zone Media. For more from cool

1157
00:55:37,640 --> 00:55:40,960
Speaker 3: Zone Media, visit our website cool Zonemedia dot com or

1158
00:55:41,040 --> 00:55:43,800
Speaker 3: check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or

1159
00:55:43,840 --> 00:55:47,560
Speaker 3: wherever you get your podcasts. Full video episodes, but Behind

1160
00:55:47,560 --> 00:55:50,440
Speaker 3: the Bastards are now streaming on Netflix, dropping every Tuesday

1161
00:55:50,480 --> 00:55:53,160
Speaker 3: and Thursday. Hit remind me of Netflix. You don't miss

1162
00:55:53,200 --> 00:55:56,720
Speaker 3: an episode. For clips in our older episode catalog, continue

1163
00:55:56,719 --> 00:56:00,000
Speaker 3: to subscribe to our YouTube channel YouTube dot com slash

1164
00:56:00,239 --> 00:56:03,719
Speaker 3: Behind the Bastards. We love about forty percent of you,

1165
00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:05,000
Speaker 3: statistically speaking,