WEBVTT - Amanda Seyfried on becoming the unknowable Elizabeth Holmes 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:03.640 Hi everyone, I'm Katie Curic, and this is next question. 0:00:05.000 --> 0:00:07.280 You know you can't turn on your TV these days 0:00:07.320 --> 0:00:11.040 without being ambushed by a sea of true crime stories, 0:00:11.480 --> 0:00:15.000 not the murder kind that's so pre pandemic. These days 0:00:15.000 --> 0:00:19.440 were obsessed with the silicon scammer, the bad entrepreneur, the 0:00:19.520 --> 0:00:24.520 failing founder from super Pumped about Uber founder Travis Kalenik. 0:00:25.400 --> 0:00:29.720 You are disruptors, because that is what revolution requires. Two 0:00:29.880 --> 0:00:33.919 we crashed about We Work founder Adam Newman. What do 0:00:33.920 --> 0:00:39.200 you think when I say to the dropout about Thereinos 0:00:39.240 --> 0:00:43.000 founder Elizabeth Holmes? The world works in certain ways until 0:00:43.280 --> 0:00:47.920 a new, great idea comes along and changes everything. We 0:00:48.000 --> 0:00:50.519 just can't seem to look away from the heart pounding 0:00:50.680 --> 0:00:56.080 rise and the inevitable gut punching fall of these brilliant, young, white, 0:00:56.240 --> 0:01:01.319 mostly male, and very rich moguls. For me, it's all 0:01:01.360 --> 0:01:06.360 about Elizabeth Holmes. She fascinates me. The voice, the look, 0:01:07.000 --> 0:01:10.920 the burning ambition. A healthcare pioneer is being compared to 0:01:11.000 --> 0:01:13.920 visionaries like Bill Gates and Steve Jobs. She is the 0:01:14.040 --> 0:01:19.040 youngest person to ever get the Horatio Alger Award. Every 0:01:19.040 --> 0:01:22.600 time you create something new, there should be questions and 0:01:23.120 --> 0:01:25.840 to me, that's a sign that you've actually done something 0:01:25.959 --> 0:01:32.880 that it's transformatives in At just thirty years old, Elizabeth 0:01:33.000 --> 0:01:35.920 was one of the youngest self made billionaires thanks to 0:01:35.959 --> 0:01:43.480 her blood testing technology and her biotech startup Paraus. By January, 0:01:43.520 --> 0:01:47.760 Elizabeth was found guilty on four out of eleven federal charges. 0:01:48.280 --> 0:01:51.240 After seven full days of deliberations, the verdicts are in. 0:01:51.400 --> 0:01:55.320 Elizabeth Holmes has been found guilty in this fraud trial. 0:01:55.840 --> 0:02:01.080 Guilty of conspiracy to defraud Paras investors, not guilty of 0:02:01.120 --> 0:02:04.920 conspiracy to defraud the patients. So at one time she 0:02:05.120 --> 0:02:08.040 was compared to Steve Jobs, and now she's a convicted 0:02:08.080 --> 0:02:10.760 felon who was facing up to twenty years behind bars. 0:02:12.600 --> 0:02:16.200 She'll be sentenced this fall. But even after a four 0:02:16.240 --> 0:02:20.120 month trial in which Elizabeth herself took the stand, it's 0:02:20.200 --> 0:02:24.200 still not clear how this woman was such promise, fell 0:02:24.360 --> 0:02:30.720 from grace and massive success in such dramatic fashion. Today 0:02:30.800 --> 0:02:33.519 we find out what it was like to become Elizabeth, 0:02:33.880 --> 0:02:37.280 to embody that enigma. I'm talking to the star of 0:02:37.280 --> 0:02:42.120 the new Hulu series The Dropout, Amanda Cipher. It you 0:02:42.200 --> 0:02:44.360 have to do it. I mean this podcast for crying 0:02:44.400 --> 0:02:49.120 out loud so you have to do it. Well, um, 0:02:49.160 --> 0:02:51.680 it's really hard to get down, but it's actually easier 0:02:51.880 --> 0:02:54.840 is to do the accent, which is it's really just 0:02:54.880 --> 0:02:58.200 an effect, but it's just really the way her mouth moves. 0:02:58.760 --> 0:03:01.320 The thirty six year old after is a familiar face, 0:03:01.639 --> 0:03:04.480 having worked in the movie business since she was fifteen, 0:03:05.200 --> 0:03:08.760 after a decade of coasting through silly but beloved comedies 0:03:09.120 --> 0:03:13.240 from Mean Girls, So here from Africa. Why are you white? 0:03:14.160 --> 0:03:16.440 Oh my god, Karen, you can't just ask people why 0:03:16.480 --> 0:03:20.640 they're white? To Mama Mia, honey, honey, how he thrills me? 0:03:20.919 --> 0:03:24.800 Amanda has become somewhat of a dramatic dark horse, wowing 0:03:24.880 --> 0:03:32.120 critics and David Fincher's film Bank My Exit, what I 0:03:32.280 --> 0:03:37.600 already made My exit and now transforming into Elizabeth Holmes 0:03:37.800 --> 0:03:47.160 for the dropout. Here at theirs, we are developing new technology. 0:03:47.480 --> 0:03:55.920 Here at theres new You're developing new technology. New technology 0:03:55.400 --> 0:04:07.720 is inspiring. Step forward, forward, forward forward, This is inspiring, 0:04:08.520 --> 0:04:14.400 step forward, and she does it all outside of the 0:04:14.440 --> 0:04:18.640 Hollywood spotlight. We should explain, by the way, where you 0:04:18.680 --> 0:04:22.640 are right now, where we're doing this podcast. Yeah, so 0:04:22.960 --> 0:04:27.279 we are thousands of miles apart um I am upstate 0:04:27.600 --> 0:04:30.839 at my main residence before I have to go back 0:04:30.880 --> 0:04:33.320 into the grind of the city, New York City, which 0:04:33.360 --> 0:04:37.000 is two hours away, And um, I do as much 0:04:37.000 --> 0:04:40.000 as I can from here. Why not? Why not? And 0:04:40.040 --> 0:04:43.119 did you guys sort of take up residence there during 0:04:43.120 --> 0:04:46.480 the pandemic or were you always pretty much living most 0:04:46.560 --> 0:04:49.039 of your life for as much as possibly you possibly 0:04:49.080 --> 0:04:54.160 could there that this was way before the pandemic, We just, um, 0:04:54.200 --> 0:04:57.800 we happened to already live full time, and um, my 0:04:58.120 --> 0:05:02.120 daughter already was in school up here, so it was 0:05:03.160 --> 0:05:06.280 it was kind of a everybody seemed to join us 0:05:06.640 --> 0:05:09.719 during the pandemic, so our life was already kind of settled, 0:05:09.839 --> 0:05:11.880 so we didn't. It's not like we missed anything when 0:05:11.880 --> 0:05:14.119 we didn't move up here during the pandemic and missed 0:05:14.120 --> 0:05:16.640 the city. I never missed the city. Are you you're 0:05:16.640 --> 0:05:20.480 a country girl, Yeah, but I was a suberb I 0:05:20.520 --> 0:05:23.000 grew up in suburbia. I don't know. I don't know 0:05:23.040 --> 0:05:25.880 what it is. I think it's just control over a 0:05:25.960 --> 0:05:30.680 space maybe that I didn't have growing up. I am 0:05:30.920 --> 0:05:34.880 so loving this show. You do such a phenomenal job 0:05:34.880 --> 0:05:40.760 of of actually occupying Elizabeth Holmes body and her psyche 0:05:41.360 --> 0:05:46.000 um and I know that you consumed everything that was 0:05:46.080 --> 0:05:50.400 out there about this woman. Tell me first how you 0:05:50.520 --> 0:05:54.440 prepared for the role. I started studying those deposition tapes, 0:05:54.520 --> 0:05:58.480 because when you have that many hours of footage of 0:05:58.600 --> 0:06:02.039 somebody's static with on camera just staring at them, you 0:06:02.040 --> 0:06:04.600 don't miss a thing. I mean, we have all that footage. 0:06:04.600 --> 0:06:08.920 When she's doing her ted talk, I believe the individual 0:06:11.160 --> 0:06:14.840 is the answer to the challenges of healthcare. And when 0:06:14.920 --> 0:06:18.120 she's on stage with Maria Schriber for the Vanity fair thing, 0:06:18.200 --> 0:06:21.800 are you a disruptor? Are you a transformer? Revolutionary? When 0:06:21.800 --> 0:06:25.320 it comes to healthcare? We have a vision and a 0:06:25.440 --> 0:06:29.320 dream for early detection and prevention, and we want to 0:06:29.400 --> 0:06:32.679 change our system in such a way in which early 0:06:32.720 --> 0:06:36.920 detection and prevention can become reality. There's just so many interviews, 0:06:36.960 --> 0:06:45.920 but there's something so like rich in those deposition hours 0:06:46.720 --> 0:06:51.440 that you couldn't get in her performative presence. For you 0:06:51.560 --> 0:06:53.920 the decision maker on behalf of fairness? And did you 0:06:54.160 --> 0:06:58.120 sign the Walgreens contract or the amendment? I did. I 0:06:58.120 --> 0:07:00.640 signed many of the Walgreens rooms. I don't know if 0:07:00.640 --> 0:07:02.920 I signed all of them. Time and yes, I mean 0:07:02.920 --> 0:07:05.760 I'm I'm the CEO and the ultimate decision maker for 0:07:05.800 --> 0:07:08.640 the company. Well, let's get back to Elizabeth, because I 0:07:08.720 --> 0:07:13.679 was wondering, Amanda with the deposition tapes, if you saw 0:07:13.800 --> 0:07:17.960 a different Elizabeth Holmes, as you said, it wasn't as 0:07:18.200 --> 0:07:23.680 performative as you know she was in most arenas. But 0:07:24.560 --> 0:07:29.040 I really enjoyed watching you acting as her during the 0:07:29.160 --> 0:07:33.800 deposition without the red lipstick, kind of much more vulnerable. 0:07:34.400 --> 0:07:38.160 But tell me about the differences between how she appeared 0:07:38.160 --> 0:07:41.040 there versus so many of the other things that you watched. 0:07:42.120 --> 0:07:46.640 There's an innate defensiveness when you're being questioned, when you're 0:07:47.720 --> 0:07:51.720 um choices are being questioned. And I still feel like 0:07:51.760 --> 0:07:53.240 there was a part of her that might have been 0:07:53.280 --> 0:07:57.480 playing a part. I tried to imagine myself in that position, 0:07:57.560 --> 0:08:00.720 and I'm always my my first pogative is to make 0:08:00.720 --> 0:08:02.520 sure that people feel comfortable with me, and that I'm 0:08:02.520 --> 0:08:05.080 not making anyone uncomfortable. And I'll tell the truth, and 0:08:05.080 --> 0:08:07.760 I'll say everything. I I'll give all the information that 0:08:07.800 --> 0:08:12.200 I can give. And I wondered what I'd be like 0:08:12.280 --> 0:08:14.880 in that position, and and and so I thought, you know, 0:08:14.920 --> 0:08:16.800 I could be totally wrong because I'm not in her 0:08:16.800 --> 0:08:19.320 head and I never got to speak to her about this, 0:08:19.400 --> 0:08:23.320 but I do feel like there were levels of there 0:08:23.400 --> 0:08:28.120 was still some maneuvering she was doing. I mean, she 0:08:28.160 --> 0:08:31.360 was still negotiating her way around the questions and and 0:08:31.400 --> 0:08:35.880 it's also a legal environment. I mean, she's got her 0:08:35.960 --> 0:08:40.800 lawyers and she's got these prosecutors, and I just imagine 0:08:40.840 --> 0:08:43.200 it was just really tricky for her. So watching her 0:08:44.440 --> 0:08:48.400 negotiate her way around the questions and her own whatever 0:08:48.480 --> 0:08:52.120 she might have been feeling, and the defensiveness that comes 0:08:52.120 --> 0:08:54.280 along with it for anybody, It's just like it was 0:08:54.400 --> 0:09:00.440 just rich and uncomfortable, and there was just so many 0:09:00.440 --> 0:09:03.760 hours worth that I could just soak get in every 0:09:03.840 --> 0:09:06.720 day watching something new. I mean I can practically quote 0:09:06.720 --> 0:09:09.280 it because I had two and a half months too, 0:09:09.679 --> 0:09:16.200 you know, prepare. And during the deposition, did she cast 0:09:16.280 --> 0:09:21.240 aside some of these affectations that she adopted in order 0:09:21.400 --> 0:09:24.120 to move in the world that she was trying to 0:09:24.120 --> 0:09:29.679 be successful? In other words, did did her voice uh 0:09:29.840 --> 0:09:32.320 you know, did it change a little bit? And was 0:09:32.400 --> 0:09:35.960 it less um kind of BARITONEI ish when she was 0:09:36.040 --> 0:09:41.119 doing the deposition. Oh, that isn't really good. It's a 0:09:41.160 --> 0:09:43.280 real feat to get that low for me, Like, I 0:09:43.320 --> 0:09:47.959 don't like you have a pretty like average sitting like females. 0:09:48.040 --> 0:09:49.680 I mean, I guess you could go either way, like 0:09:49.720 --> 0:09:51.800 you're pretty, I have a pretty I think I have 0:09:51.840 --> 0:09:53.720 a I don't know. I think I have a pretty 0:09:53.720 --> 0:09:57.000 low voice. I guess, I guess maybe maybe I would 0:09:57.000 --> 0:09:59.280 love to know what your measurement is. There's a measurement, 0:09:59.360 --> 0:10:03.679 and I don't remember if it's like frequency desciples. I 0:10:03.679 --> 0:10:07.880 don't know what it is. But someone told me at 0:10:07.880 --> 0:10:10.719 a body language expert told me that Elizabeth her what 0:10:10.840 --> 0:10:13.360 her deepest she was at like a one eighties something, 0:10:13.559 --> 0:10:16.280 and I sit at a two thirty three, and apparently 0:10:16.320 --> 0:10:20.360 like two thirty is an average female where average female 0:10:20.440 --> 0:10:23.840 voice sits. And at her lowest she was one eighty. 0:10:23.920 --> 0:10:26.520 But I think for the deposition, so I think she 0:10:26.679 --> 0:10:30.520 was already I imagine, like muscle memory, I was speaking 0:10:30.679 --> 0:10:33.040 more like her. I'm better at it now because I 0:10:33.080 --> 0:10:35.480 did it for so long. It's muscle memory. And I 0:10:35.480 --> 0:10:39.000 think for her she adapted. I think she adapted to 0:10:39.080 --> 0:10:42.080 that lower register and it was more natural for her 0:10:42.120 --> 0:10:44.280 than it is for me. So I think during the 0:10:44.320 --> 0:10:47.600 Deposition era that's like two thousand seventeen. She was already 0:10:47.760 --> 0:10:51.160 she had already adopted that that baritone that I don't 0:10:51.200 --> 0:10:55.240 think she's ever gonna be rid of. I can't imagine. 0:10:55.360 --> 0:10:57.600 But she didn't put in terms of body language, she 0:10:57.640 --> 0:11:01.440 was much less commanding. I mean, she wasn't she wasn't 0:11:01.480 --> 0:11:08.120 trying to change anyone's mind. She was there was a 0:11:08.280 --> 0:11:13.319 some moments feebleness to her and vulnerability, like you said, 0:11:13.440 --> 0:11:18.200 like and and and it was also really uh, it 0:11:18.280 --> 0:11:20.920 was also easier to relate to her and to feel 0:11:21.080 --> 0:11:26.280 compassion for her in that setting, um, because she does 0:11:26.320 --> 0:11:29.079 seem like she's like kind of stripped of all that 0:11:29.400 --> 0:11:33.640 and you know that the charisma was all just go on. 0:11:34.360 --> 0:11:36.800 I actually met with her when I dropped my daughter 0:11:36.840 --> 0:11:39.720 off at Stanford, and it was sort of at the 0:11:39.760 --> 0:11:44.160 height of her celebrity status, when she was on the 0:11:44.240 --> 0:11:48.200 cover of so many magazines. And when I went to 0:11:48.320 --> 0:11:51.760 visit her in Palo Alto. I went to her office 0:11:52.440 --> 0:11:55.480 and she sat in a in a room with me, 0:11:56.640 --> 0:11:59.040 and she got tears in her eyes when she told 0:11:59.080 --> 0:12:02.319 me how she need to help people with cancer. Of course, 0:12:02.360 --> 0:12:04.960 I think she knew that my husband had died of cancer, 0:12:05.000 --> 0:12:08.400 and I've done so much cancer advocacy work, but she 0:12:08.600 --> 0:12:13.000 seemed to care so deeply, and maybe again that was 0:12:13.080 --> 0:12:18.120 performative for me. But UM, you know she actually I 0:12:18.120 --> 0:12:20.120 thought she was going to start crying and it kind 0:12:20.120 --> 0:12:24.280 of made me get kind of teary. And so do 0:12:24.320 --> 0:12:27.800 you think that was real well or do you think 0:12:27.840 --> 0:12:34.400 that was just playing to an audience? Yet again, I 0:12:34.440 --> 0:12:39.560 don't know. I want to believe. I just always want 0:12:39.559 --> 0:12:43.520 to believe the good no matter what. Um, much like 0:12:43.640 --> 0:12:49.560 she wanted to believe that it was the tech was working. UM, 0:12:49.640 --> 0:12:51.719 I want to believe that she was there with you, 0:12:51.920 --> 0:12:58.080 But I am skeptical because you know, she's powerful. She's 0:12:58.120 --> 0:13:02.440 powerful and she knows it. She's very smart. She's really 0:13:02.480 --> 0:13:08.080 really smart. It's amazing. UM. I don't know. I have 0:13:08.200 --> 0:13:11.360 to ask you about the voice. M you got rid 0:13:11.400 --> 0:13:14.080 of that pretty quickly, but you have to do it. 0:13:14.200 --> 0:13:16.360 I mean this podcast, we're crying out loud, so you 0:13:16.400 --> 0:13:21.240 have to do it. Well. UM, it's really hard to 0:13:21.280 --> 0:13:24.320 get down. But it's more it's it's actually easier is 0:13:24.400 --> 0:13:28.280 to do the accent, which is it's really just an effect, 0:13:28.440 --> 0:13:31.480 but it's just really the way her mouth moves and 0:13:32.960 --> 0:13:37.040 it's hard to get back down there. Um, I had 0:13:37.040 --> 0:13:38.679 a better time. I had an easier time doing it 0:13:38.760 --> 0:13:40.560 after when I was doing a d R, after I 0:13:40.600 --> 0:13:43.080 had COVID for the second time after Christmas, I was 0:13:43.120 --> 0:13:46.440 coughing so much. Then my register was actually much deeper, 0:13:46.960 --> 0:13:49.640 even though it's not great for my vocal cords. It 0:13:49.760 --> 0:13:52.840 was like it was really low, like I can't even 0:13:52.840 --> 0:13:56.120 get there right now. But but it's it's mainly about 0:13:56.280 --> 0:14:04.440 the placement more and which you know you talk. But 0:14:04.520 --> 0:14:08.000 then again, like I'm thinking of you sitting in rooms 0:14:08.040 --> 0:14:10.400 with her, which I never got to do. I would 0:14:10.400 --> 0:14:14.000 have loved to. I would have connected with her. I 0:14:14.160 --> 0:14:16.000 know I would have. I mean it. It would have 0:14:16.040 --> 0:14:18.280 been hard not to, and I I'm so glad I 0:14:18.360 --> 0:14:21.240 didn't because I don't think I would have been able 0:14:21.280 --> 0:14:25.400 to play her. I would have felt bad. Well, let's 0:14:25.440 --> 0:14:29.680 talk about her, because how much license did the writer 0:14:29.880 --> 0:14:33.920 take in terms of her relationship with Sunny, the way 0:14:33.960 --> 0:14:38.720 she interacted with her employees, Um, how much about did 0:14:38.720 --> 0:14:43.320 they have to create to fill in the blank spaces? Well, 0:14:43.360 --> 0:14:47.400 the blank spaces were all very for us. Just when 0:14:47.400 --> 0:14:52.960 she's alone, when she's making these decisions, when she's developing 0:14:53.000 --> 0:14:58.160 the voice like that's all just imagined reality Liz Meriweather's genius, 0:14:58.160 --> 0:15:04.280 sparking brain. Um, we enriched so much of the Sunny 0:15:04.400 --> 0:15:07.880 Elizabeth relationship because I will say it wasn't until halfway 0:15:07.880 --> 0:15:09.880 through we were filming that we got the dump of 0:15:09.880 --> 0:15:13.640 text messages between them, and thank god they said what 0:15:13.720 --> 0:15:15.880 they did, because we were already on that path. Like 0:15:15.920 --> 0:15:23.800 their relationship was um very uh confusing to people and 0:15:24.440 --> 0:15:27.040 kind of fascinating because you knew they were they were tight. 0:15:27.120 --> 0:15:30.040 You knew they had a very special bond um and 0:15:30.080 --> 0:15:32.920 nobody really understood it. So we tried to understand it. 0:15:32.960 --> 0:15:35.920 So that's all imagined. Um. But in terms of the 0:15:36.280 --> 0:15:40.520 goal person, posts were really were set. I mean there 0:15:40.520 --> 0:15:43.720 were lots of conversations that were really truly had the 0:15:43.760 --> 0:15:48.680 way she spoke to her employees, her engineers, that that 0:15:48.760 --> 0:15:55.000 was true. It's it's more truthful than um that I 0:15:55.120 --> 0:15:57.800 that I wanted to be and and there were moments 0:15:57.840 --> 0:15:59.400 where I was just like, I can't believe this was 0:15:59.440 --> 0:16:04.600 said out loud, um, like what behave this way? Like 0:16:05.560 --> 0:16:09.080 the way she fired Ian. He was the chief chemist. 0:16:09.200 --> 0:16:12.000 For people who haven't watched the series yet, he was 0:16:12.080 --> 0:16:16.760 the chief chemist Um he's also a cancer patient at 0:16:16.760 --> 0:16:21.520 the time, devoted to what Elizabeth was trying to do. 0:16:21.760 --> 0:16:24.760 The first engineer on the ground with her really believed 0:16:24.800 --> 0:16:30.480 in her. The the things she had said to Anna 0:16:30.560 --> 0:16:34.480 Aariola and Ave Tavanian, who were worked with apples, she 0:16:34.560 --> 0:16:36.840 took them, they were on her board, they were helping 0:16:36.840 --> 0:16:40.359 her out, and the things that she said to them 0:16:40.400 --> 0:16:44.720 about the technology. It was hard to play certain things 0:16:44.720 --> 0:16:47.240 because I knew how real they were, and I didn't 0:16:47.280 --> 0:16:50.240 want to stop believing in her because as an actor, 0:16:50.320 --> 0:16:52.240 when you when you play somebody that you might not 0:16:52.320 --> 0:16:55.200 agree with, you still have to find the humanity. And 0:16:55.200 --> 0:16:57.280 that's the whole point of the show, really to show 0:16:57.320 --> 0:17:00.480 the humanity but not condoned. Anything she did was tricky, 0:17:00.640 --> 0:17:07.080 but sadly it's mostly true. More with Amanda right after this, 0:17:19.160 --> 0:17:22.680 what is your assessment, Amanda, of Elizabeth Holmes? I mean, 0:17:22.720 --> 0:17:26.680 if someone said, who is Elizabeth Holmes in your view 0:17:27.280 --> 0:17:31.040 and you know what is she all about? What would 0:17:31.040 --> 0:17:36.240 you say? I would say, Elizabeth Holmes is an incredibly smart, 0:17:37.359 --> 0:17:45.160 incredibly passionate woman who it was in over her head. 0:17:45.320 --> 0:17:49.720 I think she you know, her belief led her down. 0:17:49.760 --> 0:17:54.040 This path. You know, she she became very powerful because 0:17:54.040 --> 0:17:56.679 she really believed in something and she was trying to 0:17:56.720 --> 0:18:00.119 make it work. And I think that, um, she just 0:18:00.240 --> 0:18:03.600 ended up making the wrong decisions halfway down the road. 0:18:03.680 --> 0:18:07.639 I think there's definitely there's as incorrect and correct ways 0:18:07.720 --> 0:18:10.320 clear black and white at this point, at the point 0:18:10.359 --> 0:18:12.159 where I'm talking about the fork in the road, and 0:18:12.480 --> 0:18:15.120 she took the wrong way and and she doubled down. 0:18:15.160 --> 0:18:18.320 And I don't know if that's because she believed that 0:18:18.440 --> 0:18:21.920 it was still gonna work and she wanted she would 0:18:21.920 --> 0:18:24.119 do it at any get it done at any cost, 0:18:24.359 --> 0:18:28.440 with you know, lives and then in the balance and 0:18:28.560 --> 0:18:33.359 lies or she just you know, says we don't have it, 0:18:33.800 --> 0:18:36.119 give me some time, and and you know, I I 0:18:36.160 --> 0:18:37.760 feel like a lot of people would be like, why 0:18:37.800 --> 0:18:39.760 didn't you just say you didn't have it? And I 0:18:39.800 --> 0:18:41.600 can't say what I would I can say what I 0:18:41.600 --> 0:18:43.479 would have done, but it probably would have been harder 0:18:44.440 --> 0:18:47.359 at that point that she was at. I really believe 0:18:47.400 --> 0:18:50.680 she had the best of intentions and do do And 0:18:50.720 --> 0:18:52.520 with this show, it gives us a lot of context, 0:18:52.640 --> 0:18:56.359 like maybe these things really did happen. She wasn't great socially. 0:18:57.160 --> 0:19:00.919 She her dad lost his job at Enron, which is 0:19:01.040 --> 0:19:04.439 huge for their family. I mean, she claims she was 0:19:05.400 --> 0:19:08.760 actually assaulted in college. I mean that's not an excuse, 0:19:08.800 --> 0:19:12.800 but that can really that can traumatize somebody in ways 0:19:12.840 --> 0:19:16.960 that make it harder to to function. And the very 0:19:17.040 --> 0:19:20.199 least and where I stand now with hers that like 0:19:20.359 --> 0:19:22.960 she really she really had the best intentions, and she 0:19:23.000 --> 0:19:25.920 made the wrong decision and she made choices that I 0:19:25.800 --> 0:19:28.880 I wish she hadn't for the sake of a lot 0:19:28.920 --> 0:19:33.400 of people. I mean, just being irresponsible with health health care. 0:19:33.440 --> 0:19:35.840 It's just you can't. And if this is a if 0:19:35.880 --> 0:19:39.880 this is a lesson, like a cautionary tale for anybody 0:19:39.880 --> 0:19:44.760 who wants to, you know, take the shortcut developing health 0:19:44.800 --> 0:19:49.120 care technology thing again like science, That's why I love 0:19:49.160 --> 0:19:52.080 in this show. What is episode three or I think 0:19:52.080 --> 0:19:56.400 episode four, Elizabeth says to Ian, her head engineer, where 0:19:56.400 --> 0:20:02.080 she's firing him. She says, um, you don't understand the business, 0:20:02.119 --> 0:20:05.520 and he says, you don't understand the science. And it's 0:20:05.560 --> 0:20:09.080 just like there, it isn't a nutshell. She didn't understand 0:20:09.080 --> 0:20:12.080 the science. But I also think when you look at 0:20:12.119 --> 0:20:14.960 the origin story of theopness, which I think the series 0:20:15.000 --> 0:20:18.480 does really well. You know, it's not as if, at 0:20:18.560 --> 0:20:21.920 least how it's portrayed. It's not as if she came 0:20:22.040 --> 0:20:26.360 up with this idea and said, you know, the blood 0:20:26.440 --> 0:20:29.879 industry needs to be disrupted, we need to have a 0:20:29.920 --> 0:20:33.240 better way, We need to make it easier to diagnose 0:20:33.280 --> 0:20:39.080 the whole host of diseases. It's almost as if it 0:20:39.200 --> 0:20:42.439 was the means to an end. You know, she wanted 0:20:42.560 --> 0:20:47.480 to be this hugely successful entrepreneur. It seems like she 0:20:47.600 --> 0:20:54.240 retrofitted this desire to be of female Steve jobs, perhaps 0:20:54.359 --> 0:20:57.879 because her father had lost her job, perhaps because you know, 0:20:58.160 --> 0:21:00.600 she was looking to find her place in the world. 0:21:00.960 --> 0:21:05.240 But the idea didn't come first. The goal came first. 0:21:06.080 --> 0:21:08.159 It's so funny. I never looked at it that way, 0:21:08.240 --> 0:21:12.240 but it is exactly how we are we're telling the 0:21:12.280 --> 0:21:15.600 story as well. It's just like, yeah, it came she 0:21:15.760 --> 0:21:19.600 was looking for the next idea, and for whatever reason, 0:21:19.640 --> 0:21:22.080 it was going to be in healthcare because she was 0:21:22.160 --> 0:21:24.880 really into micro fluid I. She was taking course she 0:21:25.119 --> 0:21:28.200 you know, she was still in school, and we actually 0:21:28.280 --> 0:21:31.840 show our version of her life. We show her studying 0:21:31.840 --> 0:21:34.760 and trying to come up the next idea. And and 0:21:34.800 --> 0:21:36.840 it is true that she came up with a blood 0:21:36.840 --> 0:21:42.800 with a patch that would um dispense a lot of 0:21:42.840 --> 0:21:46.200 like medicines to make it easier to get medicine. And 0:21:46.440 --> 0:21:49.480 it and it, and it wasn't like Phyllis Gardner at 0:21:49.480 --> 0:21:54.320 Stanford said, it's not actually possible. Try something else. And 0:21:54.720 --> 0:21:57.080 she she kept trying, and she found something else that 0:21:57.200 --> 0:22:02.679 was totally viable. Um, maybe not right now still, but 0:22:04.200 --> 0:22:07.720 I think she was inspired by somebody changing the world. 0:22:07.760 --> 0:22:10.919 And Liz Meryweather wrote a line in the first episode 0:22:10.920 --> 0:22:14.600 where she's telling William H. Macy's character Richard that she 0:22:14.680 --> 0:22:18.720 just wants to be a billionaire someday. And and and 0:22:18.800 --> 0:22:22.200 it is interesting that like that did that gold did 0:22:22.240 --> 0:22:29.440 come first? It did. How was Elizabeth Holmes able to convince, persuade, 0:22:29.520 --> 0:22:35.439 manipulate super intelligent, experienced people like George Schultz and Henry 0:22:35.480 --> 0:22:38.919 Kissinger and General Maddis to invest in her company? I 0:22:38.960 --> 0:22:43.199 mean that to me is just astounding. You know, it 0:22:43.280 --> 0:22:46.399 was interesting to watch George Schault's played by Sam Waterston, 0:22:46.760 --> 0:22:50.639 you know, just get all googly eyed around her. You know, 0:22:50.840 --> 0:22:56.000 she clearly bamboozled him by you know, thank you for 0:22:56.080 --> 0:23:01.040 sharing that story with me. Um that that was really 0:23:01.560 --> 0:23:05.320 profound or whatever she said to him, you know, and 0:23:05.320 --> 0:23:09.120 and to see him sort of fall for her. Ah. 0:23:09.880 --> 0:23:13.359 But it was weird because it was not over sexuality. 0:23:14.200 --> 0:23:18.320 I don't know what it was what how did how 0:23:18.320 --> 0:23:21.959 did she do it? And why why did they do it? 0:23:22.160 --> 0:23:26.040 I'm still I don't think I'll ever understand that. I 0:23:26.080 --> 0:23:29.240 feel like there's got to be a level of fomo. Yeah, 0:23:29.640 --> 0:23:33.120 you know, they're they're they're they're so much older. They're 0:23:33.160 --> 0:23:34.679 not in the tech world like she All of her 0:23:34.680 --> 0:23:39.200 investors weren't tech investors. They weren't Silicon Valley investors. Nobody, 0:23:39.359 --> 0:23:43.840 no VC wanted to go with her because they know better. Um. 0:23:43.880 --> 0:23:45.960 And it's because it's because health care is really hard. 0:23:47.440 --> 0:23:51.560 I mean when she says Mark Zuckerberg said move fast 0:23:51.600 --> 0:23:57.200 and break things. Yeah, that that totally um works when 0:23:57.200 --> 0:24:01.040 you're in the tech but not but io tech, I mean, 0:24:01.600 --> 0:24:05.640 like not human human beings like health She was using 0:24:05.680 --> 0:24:10.480 certain templates in the wrong places. In her template. It 0:24:10.560 --> 0:24:16.119 was get a lot of very powerful people in government 0:24:16.280 --> 0:24:18.639 to to invest, and then the rest will follow. And 0:24:18.640 --> 0:24:22.080 that's exactly what happened. I mean that's another thing, you know. 0:24:22.119 --> 0:24:25.440 I was I was watching. UM. Michael Showalter directed the 0:24:25.440 --> 0:24:28.200 first four episodes of The Dropout. He also directed Tammy 0:24:28.240 --> 0:24:31.919 Fit The Eyes of Tammy Faye wish God willing Jessica 0:24:32.000 --> 0:24:36.160 Chestion wear her oscar for this year UM, and I 0:24:36.200 --> 0:24:38.840 was curious. I actually looked over at my husband we 0:24:38.840 --> 0:24:41.480 were watching it. When Andrew Garfield drives up in the 0:24:41.520 --> 0:24:43.760 car with his new car, She's like, we can't afford 0:24:43.800 --> 0:24:46.439 this car and he's like, fake, do you make it? 0:24:47.480 --> 0:24:52.920 And sorry? But like her whole trajectory was faking it 0:24:53.000 --> 0:24:57.120 until she made it, getting security guards just for that 0:24:57.119 --> 0:25:01.840 that aura, just if you know, people would say she 0:25:01.880 --> 0:25:04.600 has all the security. I mean they must be protecting 0:25:04.640 --> 0:25:08.280 something real, and it's actually no. You build up around 0:25:08.320 --> 0:25:10.760 you and then people will believe whatever you tell them. 0:25:11.040 --> 0:25:14.600 I think it automatically, psychologically makes you think, well, there's 0:25:14.640 --> 0:25:18.040 got to be some there there if all of this 0:25:18.560 --> 0:25:21.679 is around her. And I think she was brilliant at 0:25:22.320 --> 0:25:26.960 at appearances. But it's interesting that you say fomo because 0:25:27.160 --> 0:25:32.640 I think that is so perceptive because George Saltz said, 0:25:32.680 --> 0:25:36.320 I'm ninety years old, and she says, what a vibrant 0:25:36.400 --> 0:25:39.720 ninety year old he is or something. And I think 0:25:39.760 --> 0:25:45.479 it is this clash of old, established business practices and 0:25:45.680 --> 0:25:53.400 success coming up against this brash, new generation of entrepreneurs. 0:25:53.480 --> 0:25:59.520 And I think that makes people feel old, entrenched and 0:25:59.680 --> 0:26:03.000 as my daughter would say, choogy. And I think it's 0:26:03.920 --> 0:26:09.440 it's so well illustrated with the Walgreens guy, right, you 0:26:09.480 --> 0:26:13.239 have the I guess chief medical Operator or whatever he was, 0:26:14.080 --> 0:26:18.479 and he's played so brilliantly by the guy from Ferris Bueller. 0:26:18.560 --> 0:26:22.440 What's his name, Amanda Allan Ruck, Alan Ruck. And it's 0:26:22.480 --> 0:26:26.960 so clear that that this character, this man was going 0:26:27.000 --> 0:26:32.000