1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:03,640 Speaker 1: Hi everyone, I'm Katie Curic, and this is next question. 2 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:07,280 Speaker 1: You know you can't turn on your TV these days 3 00:00:07,320 --> 00:00:11,040 Speaker 1: without being ambushed by a sea of true crime stories, 4 00:00:11,480 --> 00:00:15,000 Speaker 1: not the murder kind that's so pre pandemic. These days 5 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:19,440 Speaker 1: were obsessed with the silicon scammer, the bad entrepreneur, the 6 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:24,520 Speaker 1: failing founder from super Pumped about Uber founder Travis Kalenik. 7 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:29,720 Speaker 1: You are disruptors, because that is what revolution requires. Two 8 00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:33,919 Speaker 1: we crashed about We Work founder Adam Newman. What do 9 00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:39,200 Speaker 1: you think when I say to the dropout about Thereinos 10 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:43,000 Speaker 1: founder Elizabeth Holmes? The world works in certain ways until 11 00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:47,920 Speaker 1: a new, great idea comes along and changes everything. We 12 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:50,519 Speaker 1: just can't seem to look away from the heart pounding 13 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:56,080 Speaker 1: rise and the inevitable gut punching fall of these brilliant, young, white, 14 00:00:56,240 --> 00:01:01,319 Speaker 1: mostly male, and very rich moguls. For me, it's all 15 00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:06,360 Speaker 1: about Elizabeth Holmes. She fascinates me. The voice, the look, 16 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:10,920 Speaker 1: the burning ambition. A healthcare pioneer is being compared to 17 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:13,920 Speaker 1: visionaries like Bill Gates and Steve Jobs. She is the 18 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:19,040 Speaker 1: youngest person to ever get the Horatio Alger Award. Every 19 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:22,600 Speaker 1: time you create something new, there should be questions and 20 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:25,840 Speaker 1: to me, that's a sign that you've actually done something 21 00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:32,880 Speaker 1: that it's transformatives in At just thirty years old, Elizabeth 22 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 1: was one of the youngest self made billionaires thanks to 23 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:43,480 Speaker 1: her blood testing technology and her biotech startup Paraus. By January, 24 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:47,760 Speaker 1: Elizabeth was found guilty on four out of eleven federal charges. 25 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 1: After seven full days of deliberations, the verdicts are in. 26 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:55,320 Speaker 1: Elizabeth Holmes has been found guilty in this fraud trial. 27 00:01:55,840 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 1: Guilty of conspiracy to defraud Paras investors, not guilty of 28 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:04,920 Speaker 1: conspiracy to defraud the patients. So at one time she 29 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:08,040 Speaker 1: was compared to Steve Jobs, and now she's a convicted 30 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:10,760 Speaker 1: felon who was facing up to twenty years behind bars. 31 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:16,200 Speaker 1: She'll be sentenced this fall. But even after a four 32 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:20,120 Speaker 1: month trial in which Elizabeth herself took the stand, it's 33 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:24,200 Speaker 1: still not clear how this woman was such promise, fell 34 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:30,720 Speaker 1: from grace and massive success in such dramatic fashion. Today 35 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:33,519 Speaker 1: we find out what it was like to become Elizabeth, 36 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:37,280 Speaker 1: to embody that enigma. I'm talking to the star of 37 00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:42,120 Speaker 1: the new Hulu series The Dropout, Amanda Cipher. It you 38 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:44,360 Speaker 1: have to do it. I mean this podcast for crying 39 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 1: out loud so you have to do it. Well, um, 40 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:51,680 Speaker 1: it's really hard to get down, but it's actually easier 41 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:54,840 Speaker 1: is to do the accent, which is it's really just 42 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 1: an effect, but it's just really the way her mouth moves. 43 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:01,320 Speaker 1: The thirty six year old after is a familiar face, 44 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:04,480 Speaker 1: having worked in the movie business since she was fifteen, 45 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:08,760 Speaker 1: after a decade of coasting through silly but beloved comedies 46 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:13,240 Speaker 1: from Mean Girls, So here from Africa. Why are you white? 47 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 1: Oh my god, Karen, you can't just ask people why 48 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:20,640 Speaker 1: they're white? To Mama Mia, honey, honey, how he thrills me? 49 00:03:20,919 --> 00:03:24,800 Speaker 1: Amanda has become somewhat of a dramatic dark horse, wowing 50 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:32,120 Speaker 1: critics and David Fincher's film Bank My Exit, what I 51 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:37,600 Speaker 1: already made My exit and now transforming into Elizabeth Holmes 52 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:47,160 Speaker 1: for the dropout. Here at theirs, we are developing new technology. 53 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:55,920 Speaker 1: Here at theres new You're developing new technology. New technology 54 00:03:55,400 --> 00:04:07,720 Speaker 1: is inspiring. Step forward, forward, forward forward, This is inspiring, 55 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 1: step forward, and she does it all outside of the 56 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:18,640 Speaker 1: Hollywood spotlight. We should explain, by the way, where you 57 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 1: are right now, where we're doing this podcast. Yeah, so 58 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:27,279 Speaker 1: we are thousands of miles apart um I am upstate 59 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:30,839 Speaker 1: at my main residence before I have to go back 60 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 1: into the grind of the city, New York City, which 61 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 1: is two hours away, And um, I do as much 62 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:40,000 Speaker 1: as I can from here. Why not? Why not? And 63 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:43,119 Speaker 1: did you guys sort of take up residence there during 64 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:46,480 Speaker 1: the pandemic or were you always pretty much living most 65 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:49,039 Speaker 1: of your life for as much as possibly you possibly 66 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:54,160 Speaker 1: could there that this was way before the pandemic, We just, um, 67 00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:57,800 Speaker 1: we happened to already live full time, and um, my 68 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 1: daughter already was in school up here, so it was 69 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:06,280 Speaker 1: it was kind of a everybody seemed to join us 70 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:09,719 Speaker 1: during the pandemic, so our life was already kind of settled, 71 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:11,880 Speaker 1: so we didn't. It's not like we missed anything when 72 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:14,119 Speaker 1: we didn't move up here during the pandemic and missed 73 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:16,640 Speaker 1: the city. I never missed the city. Are you you're 74 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:20,480 Speaker 1: a country girl, Yeah, but I was a suberb I 75 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 1: grew up in suburbia. I don't know. I don't know 76 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:25,880 Speaker 1: what it is. I think it's just control over a 77 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:30,680 Speaker 1: space maybe that I didn't have growing up. I am 78 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 1: so loving this show. You do such a phenomenal job 79 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 1: of of actually occupying Elizabeth Holmes body and her psyche 80 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:46,000 Speaker 1: um and I know that you consumed everything that was 81 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:50,400 Speaker 1: out there about this woman. Tell me first how you 82 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 1: prepared for the role. I started studying those deposition tapes, 83 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:58,480 Speaker 1: because when you have that many hours of footage of 84 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:02,039 Speaker 1: somebody's static with on camera just staring at them, you 85 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:04,600 Speaker 1: don't miss a thing. I mean, we have all that footage. 86 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:08,920 Speaker 1: When she's doing her ted talk, I believe the individual 87 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:14,840 Speaker 1: is the answer to the challenges of healthcare. And when 88 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:18,120 Speaker 1: she's on stage with Maria Schriber for the Vanity fair thing, 89 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:21,800 Speaker 1: are you a disruptor? Are you a transformer? Revolutionary? When 90 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:25,320 Speaker 1: it comes to healthcare? We have a vision and a 91 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:29,320 Speaker 1: dream for early detection and prevention, and we want to 92 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:32,679 Speaker 1: change our system in such a way in which early 93 00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:36,920 Speaker 1: detection and prevention can become reality. There's just so many interviews, 94 00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:45,920 Speaker 1: but there's something so like rich in those deposition hours 95 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 1: that you couldn't get in her performative presence. For you 96 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:53,920 Speaker 1: the decision maker on behalf of fairness? And did you 97 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:58,120 Speaker 1: sign the Walgreens contract or the amendment? I did. I 98 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 1: signed many of the Walgreens rooms. I don't know if 99 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:02,920 Speaker 1: I signed all of them. Time and yes, I mean 100 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 1: I'm I'm the CEO and the ultimate decision maker for 101 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:08,640 Speaker 1: the company. Well, let's get back to Elizabeth, because I 102 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:13,679 Speaker 1: was wondering, Amanda with the deposition tapes, if you saw 103 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:17,960 Speaker 1: a different Elizabeth Holmes, as you said, it wasn't as 104 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:23,680 Speaker 1: performative as you know she was in most arenas. But 105 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:29,040 Speaker 1: I really enjoyed watching you acting as her during the 106 00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 1: deposition without the red lipstick, kind of much more vulnerable. 107 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:38,160 Speaker 1: But tell me about the differences between how she appeared 108 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:41,040 Speaker 1: there versus so many of the other things that you watched. 109 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:46,640 Speaker 1: There's an innate defensiveness when you're being questioned, when you're 110 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:51,720 Speaker 1: um choices are being questioned. And I still feel like 111 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:53,240 Speaker 1: there was a part of her that might have been 112 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:57,480 Speaker 1: playing a part. I tried to imagine myself in that position, 113 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:00,720 Speaker 1: and I'm always my my first pogative is to make 114 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 1: sure that people feel comfortable with me, and that I'm 115 00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:05,080 Speaker 1: not making anyone uncomfortable. And I'll tell the truth, and 116 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:07,760 Speaker 1: I'll say everything. I I'll give all the information that 117 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:12,200 Speaker 1: I can give. And I wondered what I'd be like 118 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 1: in that position, and and and so I thought, you know, 119 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 1: I could be totally wrong because I'm not in her 120 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:19,320 Speaker 1: head and I never got to speak to her about this, 121 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:23,320 Speaker 1: but I do feel like there were levels of there 122 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:28,120 Speaker 1: was still some maneuvering she was doing. I mean, she 123 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:31,360 Speaker 1: was still negotiating her way around the questions and and 124 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:35,880 Speaker 1: it's also a legal environment. I mean, she's got her 125 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:40,800 Speaker 1: lawyers and she's got these prosecutors, and I just imagine 126 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:43,200 Speaker 1: it was just really tricky for her. So watching her 127 00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:48,400 Speaker 1: negotiate her way around the questions and her own whatever 128 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:52,120 Speaker 1: she might have been feeling, and the defensiveness that comes 129 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:54,280 Speaker 1: along with it for anybody, It's just like it was 130 00:08:54,400 --> 00:09:00,440 Speaker 1: just rich and uncomfortable, and there was just so many 131 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 1: hours worth that I could just soak get in every 132 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:06,720 Speaker 1: day watching something new. I mean I can practically quote 133 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:09,280 Speaker 1: it because I had two and a half months too, 134 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:16,200 Speaker 1: you know, prepare. And during the deposition, did she cast 135 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:21,240 Speaker 1: aside some of these affectations that she adopted in order 136 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:24,120 Speaker 1: to move in the world that she was trying to 137 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:29,679 Speaker 1: be successful? In other words, did did her voice uh 138 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:32,320 Speaker 1: you know, did it change a little bit? And was 139 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:35,960 Speaker 1: it less um kind of BARITONEI ish when she was 140 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:41,119 Speaker 1: doing the deposition. Oh, that isn't really good. It's a 141 00:09:41,160 --> 00:09:43,280 Speaker 1: real feat to get that low for me, Like, I 142 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:47,959 Speaker 1: don't like you have a pretty like average sitting like females. 143 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:49,680 Speaker 1: I mean, I guess you could go either way, like 144 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:51,800 Speaker 1: you're pretty, I have a pretty I think I have 145 00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:53,720 Speaker 1: a I don't know. I think I have a pretty 146 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 1: low voice. I guess, I guess maybe maybe I would 147 00:09:57,000 --> 00:09:59,280 Speaker 1: love to know what your measurement is. There's a measurement, 148 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:03,679 Speaker 1: and I don't remember if it's like frequency desciples. I 149 00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:07,880 Speaker 1: don't know what it is. But someone told me at 150 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:10,719 Speaker 1: a body language expert told me that Elizabeth her what 151 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:13,360 Speaker 1: her deepest she was at like a one eighties something, 152 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:16,280 Speaker 1: and I sit at a two thirty three, and apparently 153 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:20,360 Speaker 1: like two thirty is an average female where average female 154 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:23,840 Speaker 1: voice sits. And at her lowest she was one eighty. 155 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:26,520 Speaker 1: But I think for the deposition, so I think she 156 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:30,520 Speaker 1: was already I imagine, like muscle memory, I was speaking 157 00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:33,040 Speaker 1: more like her. I'm better at it now because I 158 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:35,480 Speaker 1: did it for so long. It's muscle memory. And I 159 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:39,000 Speaker 1: think for her she adapted. I think she adapted to 160 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:42,080 Speaker 1: that lower register and it was more natural for her 161 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 1: than it is for me. So I think during the 162 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:47,600 Speaker 1: Deposition era that's like two thousand seventeen. She was already 163 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:51,160 Speaker 1: she had already adopted that that baritone that I don't 164 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:55,240 Speaker 1: think she's ever gonna be rid of. I can't imagine. 165 00:10:55,360 --> 00:10:57,600 Speaker 1: But she didn't put in terms of body language, she 166 00:10:57,640 --> 00:11:01,440 Speaker 1: was much less commanding. I mean, she wasn't she wasn't 167 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:08,120 Speaker 1: trying to change anyone's mind. She was there was a 168 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:13,319 Speaker 1: some moments feebleness to her and vulnerability, like you said, 169 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:18,200 Speaker 1: like and and and it was also really uh, it 170 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 1: was also easier to relate to her and to feel 171 00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 1: compassion for her in that setting, um, because she does 172 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:29,079 Speaker 1: seem like she's like kind of stripped of all that 173 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:33,640 Speaker 1: and you know that the charisma was all just go on. 174 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:36,800 Speaker 1: I actually met with her when I dropped my daughter 175 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:39,720 Speaker 1: off at Stanford, and it was sort of at the 176 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 1: height of her celebrity status, when she was on the 177 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:48,200 Speaker 1: cover of so many magazines. And when I went to 178 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:51,760 Speaker 1: visit her in Palo Alto. I went to her office 179 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:55,480 Speaker 1: and she sat in a in a room with me, 180 00:11:56,640 --> 00:11:59,040 Speaker 1: and she got tears in her eyes when she told 181 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:02,319 Speaker 1: me how she need to help people with cancer. Of course, 182 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:04,960 Speaker 1: I think she knew that my husband had died of cancer, 183 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:08,400 Speaker 1: and I've done so much cancer advocacy work, but she 184 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:13,000 Speaker 1: seemed to care so deeply, and maybe again that was 185 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:18,120 Speaker 1: performative for me. But UM, you know she actually I 186 00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:20,120 Speaker 1: thought she was going to start crying and it kind 187 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:24,280 Speaker 1: of made me get kind of teary. And so do 188 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:27,800 Speaker 1: you think that was real well or do you think 189 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:34,400 Speaker 1: that was just playing to an audience? Yet again, I 190 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:39,560 Speaker 1: don't know. I want to believe. I just always want 191 00:12:39,559 --> 00:12:43,520 Speaker 1: to believe the good no matter what. Um, much like 192 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:49,560 Speaker 1: she wanted to believe that it was the tech was working. UM, 193 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:51,719 Speaker 1: I want to believe that she was there with you, 194 00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:58,080 Speaker 1: But I am skeptical because you know, she's powerful. She's 195 00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:02,440 Speaker 1: powerful and she knows it. She's very smart. She's really 196 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:08,080 Speaker 1: really smart. It's amazing. UM. I don't know. I have 197 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:11,360 Speaker 1: to ask you about the voice. M you got rid 198 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:14,080 Speaker 1: of that pretty quickly, but you have to do it. 199 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:16,360 Speaker 1: I mean this podcast, we're crying out loud, so you 200 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:21,240 Speaker 1: have to do it. Well. UM, it's really hard to 201 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:24,320 Speaker 1: get down. But it's more it's it's actually easier is 202 00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:28,280 Speaker 1: to do the accent, which is it's really just an effect, 203 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:31,480 Speaker 1: but it's just really the way her mouth moves and 204 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:37,040 Speaker 1: it's hard to get back down there. Um, I had 205 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:38,679 Speaker 1: a better time. I had an easier time doing it 206 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:40,560 Speaker 1: after when I was doing a d R, after I 207 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:43,080 Speaker 1: had COVID for the second time after Christmas, I was 208 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:46,440 Speaker 1: coughing so much. Then my register was actually much deeper, 209 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:49,640 Speaker 1: even though it's not great for my vocal cords. It 210 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:52,840 Speaker 1: was like it was really low, like I can't even 211 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:56,120 Speaker 1: get there right now. But but it's it's mainly about 212 00:13:56,280 --> 00:14:04,440 Speaker 1: the placement more and which you know you talk. But 213 00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:08,000 Speaker 1: then again, like I'm thinking of you sitting in rooms 214 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:10,400 Speaker 1: with her, which I never got to do. I would 215 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:14,000 Speaker 1: have loved to. I would have connected with her. I 216 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 1: know I would have. I mean it. It would have 217 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:18,280 Speaker 1: been hard not to, and I I'm so glad I 218 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:21,240 Speaker 1: didn't because I don't think I would have been able 219 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:25,400 Speaker 1: to play her. I would have felt bad. Well, let's 220 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:29,680 Speaker 1: talk about her, because how much license did the writer 221 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:33,920 Speaker 1: take in terms of her relationship with Sunny, the way 222 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:38,720 Speaker 1: she interacted with her employees, Um, how much about did 223 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:43,320 Speaker 1: they have to create to fill in the blank spaces? Well, 224 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:47,400 Speaker 1: the blank spaces were all very for us. Just when 225 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:52,960 Speaker 1: she's alone, when she's making these decisions, when she's developing 226 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:58,160 Speaker 1: the voice like that's all just imagined reality Liz Meriweather's genius, 227 00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 1: sparking brain. Um, we enriched so much of the Sunny 228 00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:07,880 Speaker 1: Elizabeth relationship because I will say it wasn't until halfway 229 00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:09,880 Speaker 1: through we were filming that we got the dump of 230 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:13,640 Speaker 1: text messages between them, and thank god they said what 231 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 1: they did, because we were already on that path. Like 232 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:23,800 Speaker 1: their relationship was um very uh confusing to people and 233 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:27,040 Speaker 1: kind of fascinating because you knew they were they were tight. 234 00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 1: You knew they had a very special bond um and 235 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:32,920 Speaker 1: nobody really understood it. So we tried to understand it. 236 00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:35,920 Speaker 1: So that's all imagined. Um. But in terms of the 237 00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:40,520 Speaker 1: goal person, posts were really were set. I mean there 238 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:43,720 Speaker 1: were lots of conversations that were really truly had the 239 00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:48,680 Speaker 1: way she spoke to her employees, her engineers, that that 240 00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:55,000 Speaker 1: was true. It's it's more truthful than um that I 241 00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:57,800 Speaker 1: that I wanted to be and and there were moments 242 00:15:57,840 --> 00:15:59,400 Speaker 1: where I was just like, I can't believe this was 243 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:04,600 Speaker 1: said out loud, um, like what behave this way? Like 244 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:09,080 Speaker 1: the way she fired Ian. He was the chief chemist. 245 00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:12,000 Speaker 1: For people who haven't watched the series yet, he was 246 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:16,760 Speaker 1: the chief chemist Um he's also a cancer patient at 247 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:21,520 Speaker 1: the time, devoted to what Elizabeth was trying to do. 248 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:24,760 Speaker 1: The first engineer on the ground with her really believed 249 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:30,480 Speaker 1: in her. The the things she had said to Anna 250 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:34,480 Speaker 1: Aariola and Ave Tavanian, who were worked with apples, she 251 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:36,840 Speaker 1: took them, they were on her board, they were helping 252 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:40,359 Speaker 1: her out, and the things that she said to them 253 00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:44,720 Speaker 1: about the technology. It was hard to play certain things 254 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:47,240 Speaker 1: because I knew how real they were, and I didn't 255 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:50,240 Speaker 1: want to stop believing in her because as an actor, 256 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:52,240 Speaker 1: when you when you play somebody that you might not 257 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:55,200 Speaker 1: agree with, you still have to find the humanity. And 258 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:57,280 Speaker 1: that's the whole point of the show, really to show 259 00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:00,480 Speaker 1: the humanity but not condoned. Anything she did was tricky, 260 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:07,080 Speaker 1: but sadly it's mostly true. More with Amanda right after this, 261 00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:22,680 Speaker 1: what is your assessment, Amanda, of Elizabeth Holmes? I mean, 262 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:26,680 Speaker 1: if someone said, who is Elizabeth Holmes in your view 263 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:31,040 Speaker 1: and you know what is she all about? What would 264 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:36,240 Speaker 1: you say? I would say, Elizabeth Holmes is an incredibly smart, 265 00:17:37,359 --> 00:17:45,160 Speaker 1: incredibly passionate woman who it was in over her head. 266 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:49,720 Speaker 1: I think she you know, her belief led her down. 267 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:54,040 Speaker 1: This path. You know, she she became very powerful because 268 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:56,679 Speaker 1: she really believed in something and she was trying to 269 00:17:56,720 --> 00:18:00,119 Speaker 1: make it work. And I think that, um, she just 270 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:03,600 Speaker 1: ended up making the wrong decisions halfway down the road. 271 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:07,639 Speaker 1: I think there's definitely there's as incorrect and correct ways 272 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:10,320 Speaker 1: clear black and white at this point, at the point 273 00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:12,159 Speaker 1: where I'm talking about the fork in the road, and 274 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:15,120 Speaker 1: she took the wrong way and and she doubled down. 275 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:18,320 Speaker 1: And I don't know if that's because she believed that 276 00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:21,920 Speaker 1: it was still gonna work and she wanted she would 277 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:24,119 Speaker 1: do it at any get it done at any cost, 278 00:18:24,359 --> 00:18:28,440 Speaker 1: with you know, lives and then in the balance and 279 00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:33,359 Speaker 1: lies or she just you know, says we don't have it, 280 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:36,119 Speaker 1: give me some time, and and you know, I I 281 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:37,760 Speaker 1: feel like a lot of people would be like, why 282 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:39,760 Speaker 1: didn't you just say you didn't have it? And I 283 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:41,600 Speaker 1: can't say what I would I can say what I 284 00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:43,479 Speaker 1: would have done, but it probably would have been harder 285 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:47,359 Speaker 1: at that point that she was at. I really believe 286 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:50,680 Speaker 1: she had the best of intentions and do do And 287 00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:52,520 Speaker 1: with this show, it gives us a lot of context, 288 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:56,359 Speaker 1: like maybe these things really did happen. She wasn't great socially. 289 00:18:57,160 --> 00:19:00,919 Speaker 1: She her dad lost his job at Enron, which is 290 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:04,439 Speaker 1: huge for their family. I mean, she claims she was 291 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:08,760 Speaker 1: actually assaulted in college. I mean that's not an excuse, 292 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:12,800 Speaker 1: but that can really that can traumatize somebody in ways 293 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:16,960 Speaker 1: that make it harder to to function. And the very 294 00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:20,199 Speaker 1: least and where I stand now with hers that like 295 00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:22,960 Speaker 1: she really she really had the best intentions, and she 296 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:25,920 Speaker 1: made the wrong decision and she made choices that I 297 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:28,880 Speaker 1: I wish she hadn't for the sake of a lot 298 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:33,400 Speaker 1: of people. I mean, just being irresponsible with health health care. 299 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:35,840 Speaker 1: It's just you can't. And if this is a if 300 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:39,880 Speaker 1: this is a lesson, like a cautionary tale for anybody 301 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:44,760 Speaker 1: who wants to, you know, take the shortcut developing health 302 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:49,120 Speaker 1: care technology thing again like science, That's why I love 303 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:52,080 Speaker 1: in this show. What is episode three or I think 304 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:56,400 Speaker 1: episode four, Elizabeth says to Ian, her head engineer, where 305 00:19:56,400 --> 00:20:02,080 Speaker 1: she's firing him. She says, um, you don't understand the business, 306 00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 1: and he says, you don't understand the science. And it's 307 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:09,080 Speaker 1: just like there, it isn't a nutshell. She didn't understand 308 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:12,080 Speaker 1: the science. But I also think when you look at 309 00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:14,960 Speaker 1: the origin story of theopness, which I think the series 310 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:18,480 Speaker 1: does really well. You know, it's not as if, at 311 00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:21,920 Speaker 1: least how it's portrayed. It's not as if she came 312 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:26,360 Speaker 1: up with this idea and said, you know, the blood 313 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:29,879 Speaker 1: industry needs to be disrupted, we need to have a 314 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:33,240 Speaker 1: better way, We need to make it easier to diagnose 315 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:39,080 Speaker 1: the whole host of diseases. It's almost as if it 316 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:42,439 Speaker 1: was the means to an end. You know, she wanted 317 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:47,480 Speaker 1: to be this hugely successful entrepreneur. It seems like she 318 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:54,240 Speaker 1: retrofitted this desire to be of female Steve jobs, perhaps 319 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:57,879 Speaker 1: because her father had lost her job, perhaps because you know, 320 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:00,600 Speaker 1: she was looking to find her place in the world. 321 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:05,240 Speaker 1: But the idea didn't come first. The goal came first. 322 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:08,159 Speaker 1: It's so funny. I never looked at it that way, 323 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:12,240 Speaker 1: but it is exactly how we are we're telling the 324 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:15,600 Speaker 1: story as well. It's just like, yeah, it came she 325 00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:19,600 Speaker 1: was looking for the next idea, and for whatever reason, 326 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:22,080 Speaker 1: it was going to be in healthcare because she was 327 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:24,880 Speaker 1: really into micro fluid I. She was taking course she 328 00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:28,200 Speaker 1: you know, she was still in school, and we actually 329 00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:31,840 Speaker 1: show our version of her life. We show her studying 330 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:34,760 Speaker 1: and trying to come up the next idea. And and 331 00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:36,840 Speaker 1: it is true that she came up with a blood 332 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:42,800 Speaker 1: with a patch that would um dispense a lot of 333 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:46,200 Speaker 1: like medicines to make it easier to get medicine. And 334 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:49,480 Speaker 1: it and it, and it wasn't like Phyllis Gardner at 335 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:54,320 Speaker 1: Stanford said, it's not actually possible. Try something else. And 336 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:57,080 Speaker 1: she she kept trying, and she found something else that 337 00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:02,679 Speaker 1: was totally viable. Um, maybe not right now still, but 338 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:07,720 Speaker 1: I think she was inspired by somebody changing the world. 339 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:10,919 Speaker 1: And Liz Meryweather wrote a line in the first episode 340 00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 1: where she's telling William H. Macy's character Richard that she 341 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:18,720 Speaker 1: just wants to be a billionaire someday. And and and 342 00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:22,200 Speaker 1: it is interesting that like that did that gold did 343 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:29,440 Speaker 1: come first? It did. How was Elizabeth Holmes able to convince, persuade, 344 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:35,439 Speaker 1: manipulate super intelligent, experienced people like George Schultz and Henry 345 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:38,919 Speaker 1: Kissinger and General Maddis to invest in her company? I 346 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:43,199 Speaker 1: mean that to me is just astounding. You know, it 347 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:46,399 Speaker 1: was interesting to watch George Schault's played by Sam Waterston, 348 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:50,639 Speaker 1: you know, just get all googly eyed around her. You know, 349 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:56,000 Speaker 1: she clearly bamboozled him by you know, thank you for 350 00:22:56,080 --> 00:23:01,040 Speaker 1: sharing that story with me. Um that that was really 351 00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:05,320 Speaker 1: profound or whatever she said to him, you know, and 352 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:09,120 Speaker 1: and to see him sort of fall for her. Ah. 353 00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:13,359 Speaker 1: But it was weird because it was not over sexuality. 354 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:18,320 Speaker 1: I don't know what it was what how did how 355 00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:21,959 Speaker 1: did she do it? And why why did they do it? 356 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:26,040 Speaker 1: I'm still I don't think I'll ever understand that. I 357 00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:29,240 Speaker 1: feel like there's got to be a level of fomo. Yeah, 358 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:33,120 Speaker 1: you know, they're they're they're they're so much older. They're 359 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:34,679 Speaker 1: not in the tech world like she All of her 360 00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:39,200 Speaker 1: investors weren't tech investors. They weren't Silicon Valley investors. Nobody, 361 00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:43,840 Speaker 1: no VC wanted to go with her because they know better. Um. 362 00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:45,960 Speaker 1: And it's because it's because health care is really hard. 363 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:51,560 Speaker 1: I mean when she says Mark Zuckerberg said move fast 364 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:57,200 Speaker 1: and break things. Yeah, that that totally um works when 365 00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:01,040 Speaker 1: you're in the tech but not but io tech, I mean, 366 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:05,640 Speaker 1: like not human human beings like health She was using 367 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:10,480 Speaker 1: certain templates in the wrong places. In her template. It 368 00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:16,119 Speaker 1: was get a lot of very powerful people in government 369 00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:18,639 Speaker 1: to to invest, and then the rest will follow. And 370 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:22,080 Speaker 1: that's exactly what happened. I mean that's another thing, you know. 371 00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:25,440 Speaker 1: I was I was watching. UM. Michael Showalter directed the 372 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:28,200 Speaker 1: first four episodes of The Dropout. He also directed Tammy 373 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:31,919 Speaker 1: Fit The Eyes of Tammy Faye wish God willing Jessica 374 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:36,160 Speaker 1: Chestion wear her oscar for this year UM, and I 375 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:38,840 Speaker 1: was curious. I actually looked over at my husband we 376 00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:41,480 Speaker 1: were watching it. When Andrew Garfield drives up in the 377 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:43,760 Speaker 1: car with his new car, She's like, we can't afford 378 00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:46,439 Speaker 1: this car and he's like, fake, do you make it? 379 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:52,920 Speaker 1: And sorry? But like her whole trajectory was faking it 380 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:57,120 Speaker 1: until she made it, getting security guards just for that 381 00:24:57,119 --> 00:25:01,840 Speaker 1: that aura, just if you know, people would say she 382 00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:04,600 Speaker 1: has all the security. I mean they must be protecting 383 00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:08,280 Speaker 1: something real, and it's actually no. You build up around 384 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:10,760 Speaker 1: you and then people will believe whatever you tell them. 385 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:14,600 Speaker 1: I think it automatically, psychologically makes you think, well, there's 386 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:18,040 Speaker 1: got to be some there there if all of this 387 00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:21,679 Speaker 1: is around her. And I think she was brilliant at 388 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:26,960 Speaker 1: at appearances. But it's interesting that you say fomo because 389 00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:32,640 Speaker 1: I think that is so perceptive because George Saltz said, 390 00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:36,320 Speaker 1: I'm ninety years old, and she says, what a vibrant 391 00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:39,720 Speaker 1: ninety year old he is or something. And I think 392 00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:45,479 Speaker 1: it is this clash of old, established business practices and 393 00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:53,400 Speaker 1: success coming up against this brash, new generation of entrepreneurs. 394 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:59,520 Speaker 1: And I think that makes people feel old, entrenched and 395 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:03,000 Speaker 1: as my daughter would say, choogy. And I think it's 396 00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:09,440 Speaker 1: it's so well illustrated with the Walgreens guy, right, you 397 00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:13,239 Speaker 1: have the I guess chief medical Operator or whatever he was, 398 00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:18,479 Speaker 1: and he's played so brilliantly by the guy from Ferris Bueller. 399 00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:22,440 Speaker 1: What's his name, Amanda Allan Ruck, Alan Ruck. And it's 400 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:26,960 Speaker 1: so clear that that this character, this man was going 401 00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:32,000 Speaker 1: through kind of almost a professional midlife crisis, if you will. 402 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:36,560 Speaker 1: Listening to Katie Perry, you know, singing that song what 403 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:41,520 Speaker 1: is that UK? You know, this guy just wants to 404 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:43,840 Speaker 1: be a part of the action. He wants to be 405 00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:49,320 Speaker 1: where business is going. And you know, I think with 406 00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:53,600 Speaker 1: all these business pressures that some of these people saw 407 00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:59,679 Speaker 1: her as this almost messionic figure who was going to 408 00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:05,520 Speaker 1: try transform industry for the better and not really necessarily 409 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:11,720 Speaker 1: you know, thinking about improving healthcare, but improving the bottom line. Right, 410 00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:16,720 Speaker 1: I do wonder if that's is this how things get done? 411 00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:19,760 Speaker 1: I mean, I thought it was necessary for me to 412 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:22,159 Speaker 1: be an audience member watching the show because I wanted 413 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:25,359 Speaker 1: to know what it could have been like inside of 414 00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:29,440 Speaker 1: her head um, and then like being able to play her, 415 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:33,520 Speaker 1: I really really cared, Like I really wanted there to 416 00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:40,000 Speaker 1: be something good in there. Um, What is good about 417 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:46,320 Speaker 1: Elizabeth Holmes? Oh? I mean I don't know. People say, 418 00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:49,280 Speaker 1: you know, so what do you think about her? And 419 00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:55,439 Speaker 1: I'm like, I don't really know her. I spent you know, 420 00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:58,800 Speaker 1: seven months of my life playing a version of her, 421 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:03,040 Speaker 1: my version of her, But the she's a real human 422 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:05,879 Speaker 1: being and she's out there walking around with a baby 423 00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:11,400 Speaker 1: and a family, and I'm like, I have no idea 424 00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:16,480 Speaker 1: what she could possibly be thinking. Because of all the 425 00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:20,240 Speaker 1: things that she's done, all the things she put into 426 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:24,280 Speaker 1: play that are really hard to watch and really hard 427 00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:30,560 Speaker 1: to understand and really hard to excuse. You know, she's 428 00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:35,119 Speaker 1: also a real person. So I think what's good about 429 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:40,520 Speaker 1: her is that she was very disciplined, and I don't 430 00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:43,520 Speaker 1: know she was passionate. I guess that's a good. Well, 431 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:45,640 Speaker 1: what do you do with it when you have that passion? Like, 432 00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:47,480 Speaker 1: it's it's all about what you do with it, It's 433 00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:52,000 Speaker 1: all about the journey but it's also what motivates that passion, right, 434 00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:56,280 Speaker 1: and that to me is still a gigantic question mark. 435 00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:58,960 Speaker 1: That's the thing, Like what was she afraid of? That's it, 436 00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:04,080 Speaker 1: I think are in our story. She cared about her 437 00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:09,200 Speaker 1: parents and she was afraid of failing them. I was 438 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:11,160 Speaker 1: able to relate to her because she's also like a 439 00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:18,680 Speaker 1: contemporary of mine. We you know, we're a little socially 440 00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:20,520 Speaker 1: offered to the school. We were on the dance team. 441 00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:23,480 Speaker 1: We you know, listened to probably some of the same music. 442 00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:27,920 Speaker 1: Like that was the easy step to to to relate to. 443 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:29,840 Speaker 1: But the rest of it, you know, as it is, 444 00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:32,600 Speaker 1: it as more stuff came to light, it's just so 445 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:35,480 Speaker 1: hard to think about the things that are good. But 446 00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:43,040 Speaker 1: I think she there's got to be something right or 447 00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:46,920 Speaker 1: is that just what I want to believe? We'll be 448 00:29:47,080 --> 00:30:01,200 Speaker 1: right back. I'm wonder if Elizabeth will ever tell her 449 00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:05,240 Speaker 1: own story. So much has been written about her. She 450 00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:10,680 Speaker 1: should like she should, and also like will she see 451 00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:13,600 Speaker 1: the dropout? I don't know she I don't think she 452 00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:15,800 Speaker 1: should watch the show. I really don't. I mean, it's 453 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:18,560 Speaker 1: there's we made up. We made up. A lot of 454 00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:22,960 Speaker 1: it is imagined reality. It's a TV show. I think 455 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:26,640 Speaker 1: she should. I mean, everybody deserves to have a a 456 00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:31,360 Speaker 1: chance to speak their minds, right. Um, maybe she's waiting 457 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:36,880 Speaker 1: to write a memoir, you know, like wouldn't we all 458 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:41,560 Speaker 1: love to know from her perspective? I mean, we're trying 459 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:44,760 Speaker 1: to get some perspective here on the show for fans 460 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:48,680 Speaker 1: of her story. But um, and some of the motivations 461 00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:50,960 Speaker 1: behind her choices, like what she could have been thinking. 462 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:53,040 Speaker 1: But I want to I want to read that book. 463 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:58,320 Speaker 1: I want her to be the narrator of her own book. 464 00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:01,040 Speaker 1: But do you think we'll ever hear the real story 465 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:06,080 Speaker 1: if it's from her perspective? Or she'll continue to manipulate 466 00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:10,280 Speaker 1: an audience? You know, Will we ever get to know 467 00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:13,120 Speaker 1: the real Elizabeth Holmes? I guess is the question? Maybe 468 00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:16,720 Speaker 1: we're not meant to. Maybe that's just one of life's 469 00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:23,280 Speaker 1: like questions. I can tell you for sure, she's inventing 470 00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:26,920 Speaker 1: something new right now. I don't think you can stop her, 471 00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:31,040 Speaker 1: and so maybe we'll never understand that kind of drive. 472 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:33,440 Speaker 1: You know. I got to go to work every day 473 00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:37,560 Speaker 1: and play this enigma, and then I got to go 474 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:46,120 Speaker 1: home and my family, you know, So it was it's 475 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:48,840 Speaker 1: interesting to walk around in her shoes for a minute, 476 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:53,760 Speaker 1: and I, you know, I don't endy her, and I 477 00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:56,160 Speaker 1: hope she comes up with something that does save the world, 478 00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:03,440 Speaker 1: because we all have to come back, don't we. That 479 00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:06,200 Speaker 1: was Amanda Seyfrid. By the way, you can watch the 480 00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:09,840 Speaker 1: Dropout on Hulu now and it's based on the podcast 481 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:13,360 Speaker 1: of the same name, which is also excellent, So go 482 00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:17,680 Speaker 1: catch up. The finale airs on April seven, and it's great. 483 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:24,920 Speaker 1: Next Question with Katie Kurik is a production of I 484 00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:28,920 Speaker 1: Heart Media and Katie Kurik Media. The executive producers are Me, 485 00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:33,680 Speaker 1: Katie Curic, and Courtney Litz. The supervising producer is Lauren Hansen. 486 00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:38,600 Speaker 1: Associate producers Derek Clements and Adriana Fasio. The show is 487 00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:42,480 Speaker 1: edited and mixed by Derrick Clements. For more information about 488 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:45,440 Speaker 1: today's episode, or to sign up for my morning newsletter, 489 00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:48,360 Speaker 1: Wake Up Paul, go to Katie Currek dot com. You 490 00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:51,040 Speaker 1: can also find me at Katie Curic on Instagram and 491 00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:54,600 Speaker 1: all my social media channels. For more podcasts from I 492 00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:58,560 Speaker 1: Heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, 493 00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:01,080 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.